because alleghany county with about 1.2, 1.3 million people, is bigger than a lot of states. >> we only have a couple seconds left but what do you think this means for joe biden? >> it's good news for joe biden. he's very close to unions. unions showed they can really deliver for their candidates here. so he's had bad polls recently but the results from tuesday night were pretty encouraging for him. >> thanks for joining us. and that will do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. no one, not the pollsters, not the pundits, not the tv anchors, not even the candidates can really understand what is in the hearts and minds of voters until the moment they vote and tots a.

what matters to them and what doesn't. that moment of clarity is right now. last night, contrary to what many were led to believe, americans across the country propelled democrats to what may have been the most consequential political achievement for the democratic party since the day joe biden was elected. voters injected rocket fuel directly into the party's blood stream. electing democratic candidates and advancing their key policy positions. in kentucky, the governor's race once projected to be a very close one was not. incumbent democrat andy beshear won by a 6-pointrgin. in a state that donald trump won 6 points. in virginia, nbc news projects democrats retain control of the state senate and actually flipped the house of delegates. now governor glenn youngkin, the conservative poster boy generating national buzz, will wrestle with two chambers

controlled by the democratic party over matters of gun safety, voting rights and the issue that defined that race and others, reproductive freedom. nowhere was that more pronounced than the state of ohio in one of the most watched contests in recent memory, voters there enshrined abortion rights in their state constitution and they did so by a margin of 12 points. this was the second election day since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade and both times the issue of abortion was one of, if not the primary driver of how voters would behave at the polls. a huge loser for republicans. one they can't do much about. and they have just one guy to blame. guess who? the man who publicly reveled in the idea that he is the one responsible for striking down roe. donald trump. so after the american people were so unambiguous yesterday on the issues that matter to them, do republicans have it in them

in 2023 to course correct in time for 2024? will americans see in donald trump what they saw in the rest of the republican party? a man and a party woefully out of step and out of touch. that's where we start with some of our favorite friends. david is back with us. here with me onset for the hour, former senator, claire mccass kell, and matt joins us as well. lucky for us they're all msnbc contributors. there is a nostalgia to you texting me while i was doing baseball practice pick-up. tell me what the polls said. take our viewers inside what you were seeing in the polls and the exit returns. >> thank you. when i looked at -- you know, i'm sort of a mad scientist in these things on election night as you've been there. and i think too often people focus on the wrong things. on election night, what i was looking at was the difference between in kentucky, for

example, why i knew early, early on. and i texted you early on that beshear would win, he was performing in county after county after county five to six points better than when he barely won in 2019. and that was holding the pattern. he ended up winning five points better than he did last time. to me this is such a fundamental first. a fundamental sort of thing that there is such a misunderstanding of today's electorate. people constantly looking at the wrong numbers and polls and not at the right numbers which is why they miscalculated in 2022 what would happen, why they miscalculated in 2023. there is a huge divergence between what people look at on paper and what actually happens on the playing field. to me, politics is a lot like an nfl game or a college football game. you don't win the game or lose the game on paper.

you win or lose the game in the field. and in the last five elections, in the field, when there is candidate against candidate, message against message, the democrats have won. and i would say this is becoming fundamentally less, i would argue, less about donald trump and more about what the republican party has become. so i know you premise that had they only have donald trump to blame because of what he did with roe v. wade. but in my view, they only have themselves to blame because they've allowed this to happen. they've allowed the republican party to become this, carry all these things that a majority of americans can't stand, and now they present candidates who don't fit the electorate, as we saw last night in virginia and issues that don't fit the electric as an ohio, and the candidates in kentucky. so to me this has become a virus that now patient zero is, i think, doesn't matter as much. the virus has attached itself to the republican party. and that's what i don't think people fundamentally understand.

this is a virus the american people, when they have come down to it, in the field of battle on election day, make a comparison and they vote democratic. >> i want to press you on something. i so love being, not corrected but being enlightened by your understanding of the electorate. your record is pretty close to perfect, matt dowd. what strikes me as broken is describing the country as divided around issues. they are not. 85% of a americans believe abortion should be legal in certain or all circumstances. a whole slew of specific policy that's we put up on the screen all the time. what is divided, what is polarized, is tribalism around extremist views that aren't even rooted in ideology. but they ever done damage the president biden's approval rating. and i wonder what you make of the ohio exits that show president biden sitting at about

41%, but support for abortion access at 60%. that is joe biden's position and joe biden's position only. donald trump is responsible for the extremism that has been ushered in on the right. what does joe biden do with that 20 points, sort of running room or head room between his own approval and the support for his position on reproductive health care? >> i'm really glad you asked this question. a perfect question. as we saw in 2022, in what people understood as normal, is where biden's approval rating wasn't very good going into a mid-term election. what ended up happening is democrats, in state after state after state, won among people, overwhelmingly among people that somewhat disapproved of joe biden. yesterday's electorate, people that wanted health care freedom among people that somewhat disapproved of joe biden voted overwhelmingly for that amendment. that is why this idea of predicting what will happen with

joe biden from polls today, when voters today or yesterday were focused on those elections, and what was the choice in those elections, come next year, seven, eight months from now, the choice will be very clear for voters. though they may dislike joe biden in this, in some ways, in things that he's done or who he is, they're going to have a fundamental choice. and as you said, in issue after issue after issue, and really fundamentally in vision of the country, if you present it as a vision of the country, the democrats' vision of the country, pro freedom, pro justice, pro multicultural democracy, is much more supported than what the republicans' vision is. which is a one culture, single thing. and i don't know if you saw yesterday that you had senator saying you have to get rid of these on the ballot. saying democracy doesn't work for us. if we give voters the choice on issues, they have a tendency in

almost every single instance, as claire knows, even in red missouri, they put the rise go minimum wage on the ballot. it passed. they put expansion of medicare on the ballot. it passed. so that's what i think republicans don't want. voters to actually coming to the conclusion, what candidate fits them in many ways, and i think in the end, joe biden's candidacy will fit where voters are even if they dislike him at the time. and what issue fits them. that's what we have to focus on. not these overall numbers that people sort of keep saying a year out from the election date. where are voters fundamentally, fundamentally in the choice they have to make? >> claire, you were focused on virginia. i think fair to say, a little worried that youngkin's position might sound acceptable when held up against the really extreme positions among some of the republicans. democrats prevailed across the

board in virginia. are you surprised, heartened, cautiously optimistic? >> i hope some of my children are watching. they always say they don't get to hear me say this often enough. i was wrong. >> you were right to be worried. i think we're all worried. i'm worried every election night. and i think that what youngkin did has worked before. the republican party is so whackadue, if you take an inch left of the extremist, you can be perceived as moderate, it is reassuring. >> it is reassuring. a couple of thing that really matter in 2024. one is motivation. and these men, and with all due respect to my friends that are with me on this right now. i was reading this morning in the "wall street journal," some political consultant in virginia. he was saying that this issue would fade by november of 2024. i got news for him.

this issue is not going anywhere. women are angry. this is about their freedom. this is about their health. this is about whether or not they can make decisions with their family and with their doctor on monumental things in their lives. and i don't think men, many men, some do but many don't fully understand what a gut punch the dobbs decision was to women. and it is not going away. the other thing i would say, i think matthew -- >> wait. i don't want to move on from that. i think there are a million things to say about that and a million ways to manifest itself in ways that may not be recognizable. i know a gynecologist who has done more sterilizations on young, healthy women because those young healthy women don't trust that reproductive health care will be available. i know a lot of women who have changed other aspects of their lives, who find it harder to

find other health care because if people that provide reproductive health care are scared they'll be sued, there is less -- you end up with health care deserts. >> i know mothers in missouri, if your daughter gets raped, the government mandates that she bring that pregnancy to term. that she give birth to the rapist's baby. that's the law in my state. so i know mothers in missouri who have asked me for advice on how do i stockpile the morning after pill? how do i get that so i have it and i don't have to worry about getting thrown in jail or my daughter getting thrown in jail or us having to figure out how to get to another state quickly. this is the kind of thing that women are confronting in this country. and it's not just my state. it's not just a few states. there are a bunch of states. they're doing period trackers to

try to catch women getting abortions. they're putting point with ois people to try to catch people helping people get abortions. they've taken this so far that they have lost suburban republican women in numbers that i don't think the republican party even realizes. >> you were going to make a second political point. >> the second point i would make, you poll americans about a sitting president. unless there's some extraordinary external event like 9/11. do you know what they'll say? we don't want this guy anymore. we want a new guy or a new woman, hopefully someday. really judging someone's popularity as a sitting president at this point in their term is never going to be, oh, this guy is just better than sliced bread. what elections are is a contrast. it's a contrast. the sooner the biden white house gets out of the mode that we can

convince everyone we've done a really good job and into the mode, we have to really make people understand how scary this contrast is to the things they care about. and that's what i think last night helped with. i think it will nudge a lot of democratic candidates to realize that hey, this is the choice where the government is in your bedroom, whether government is telling you how to raise your children, whether government is telling what you book to read a. this is what it is about. and it is going to be an election pleasantly for a change where democrats will have freedom as their best friend. >> and if you look at ohio, it was a swing state when i worked in politics. it is a pretty red state now, david. the majority of men and women and white ohioans and black and latino from age 18 to 65 all supported enshrining the right to an abortion in that state's

constitution. that was the question. in ohio, a red state, jorts of every group that we've separated voters out in voted for it. >> yeah, and nicole, i want to yield my time back to you and senator mccaskill. there are stronger voices on this issue. let's go straight to the data. it is very important. what we know since june of last year, in a post dobbs world, the nation is overwhelmingly pro roe. it is simply a pro roe nation. and republicans refuse to recognize that. i think the thread between matthew's comments and claire's is very important. we get caught up in a horse race west see a poll flash between joe biden and donald trump. that doesn't matter a year out. what does matter is the opinions of voters on the issues. what we continue to see including ohio last night, is that issues actually matter. to the question of reproductive

rights to personal freedom, voters are making that leap. if we've seen anything from kansas to ohio and everything in between, voters are making the leap between a donald trump did not led republican party that restricts freedom and democrats wh eorace it, and i think what we're seeing. i really believe what we're seeing. voters are asking themselves under trumpist republicans, whatever you call them. is democracyto be more or less secure? is the american experiment going to be more promising or less promising? is the economy under republicans going to choose winners and losers based on political allegiances or not? is education going to be that i subscribe to the edicts of the leader? it starts and ends with reproductive freedom. the one thing we've seen since the dobbs decision, democrats

continue to win elections. the horse race polls are garbage right now. what the maers is when voters going to the polls, they say i don't trust republicans with my personal freedom. that is a wide lane for joe biden and the democrats next year. >> and i think you can go even further and say trump voters go to the polls in a post dobbs world and vote on the side of democrats. let me show you andy beshear last night. >> i think candidates should run for something and not against someone. i think what you saw last night was a rejection of anger politics. of attempting to divide us. people are tired of the constant bickering, seeing the world in red or blue or team v or team r. i think everyone who runs for office ought to come with the very best ideas about how to move us forward. >> that was from later today. that is a democratic governor in

a plus 26 trump state. he didn't win just with finding more democrats, which is often the sort of model. he turned trump voters into democratic voters for governor. and he ran on a very, very specific message about reproductive freedom. there was an ad that was chilling. we'll play it later in the broadcast. he ran with a very blunt and a very direct message in kentucky and prevailed by wider margins than last time. >> shades of bill clinton, to be honest. i had to go back and think, in 1992, did people really think that bill clinton had what it tack? i don't know if people did or not. we'll see what andy beshear does. we know from ohio, reproductive freedom matters to voters. we know from kentucky that delivering results matters. andy beshear has delivered a

strong economy, vetoed an antitrans bill, and still won a trump plus 27 race. and i don't know his personal faith convictions. he clearly speaks openly about some time of christian faith orientation. which goes to your point about republicans supporting a pro-roe position. many republicans are republican evangelicals sitting in the pews sunday morning. that's what the data tells us. for 50 years, the nation is told you're either pro-life or pro-choice. you can subscribe to that if you want. but coming out of dobbs, there is a different question. whether you identify as pro-life or pro-choice, are you pro roe or pro dobbs? the nation is saying we are pro. >> the other thing, i'll show

you, after taking a break. i'll show you the never-minds. republicans had a minute to course correct. and i think you're right in that youngkin offered the biggest correction. but that it was such a flop. we have to ask, and then i'll ask all of you. i'll give you two minutes to think about it. what do they do between now and '24? it's not enough time to change a position. it's not enough time to help a single woman or a single doctor. we'll also show you ivanka trump. not because we want to but because she was the star witness in that quarter of a million-dollar fraud trial against her father and her family business. how the former first daughter and senior executives seem to have a memory issue. i think there's a supplement for that. she didn't remember much of anything seeking to distance herself from the company. and later, from ivanka to don jr. to eric, mary trump knows

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exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency.

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be brief. so i'll be brief tonight and say thank you all. >> hold the house, flip the senate. we know how to do this. we learned in 2021 how to win elections. >> so i look forward to working with the house and the senate going forward just like we have. >> we're going to have a red wave. they call it the great red wave like nobody has ever seen before. it's really amazing. and i think we're winning. i think we'll win everything. >> did those seem like the republican party generally has a real problem with winning. >> it happens to everybody, i would say. i've worked on winning and losing campaigns. there's something rich about believing that trump can win, right? because he hasn't since the

first time he did. >> yeah. and this is now bigger than donald trump. i mean, i've tried to sound this horn all day long and i will keep sounding it. the republicans in the house just unanimously voted for a man for speaker who believes in no exceptions for rape or incest. said that anybody who performed an abortion should do hard labor. has spoken out in the most gross and egregious terms against the gay community, against gay marriage. he is really, really extreme. and by the way, they're busy doing all this nonsense. and they can't even figure out how to fund the government. so this is, i just, i'll tell you what. i like our side of this fight going into 2024 a whole lot better than their side. polls be damned. i just think that the democratic

party and joe biden and the people running as democrats are in much better shape than the polls are giving them credit and frankly, a lot of the under thatits are not giving them enough credit. >> matt dowd, not only have i been on losing campaigns. i have been on winning campaigns that misread their mandate. what caution would you offer today? >> well, first, let me say one thing going the virginia thing that i want to make clear on. the problem with youngkin's position that looked like a movement from compromise, the problem is that voters, they're untrustful of any republicans talking about any of this on this issue. you can't say to a voter, well, i know you're only getting six weeks of freedom here but we'll give you ten more in virginia. a woman gets 16 weeks of freedom in virginia. that's what we'll give you in the course of this. that is problematic. the vast majority of voters

think roe v. wade was a compromised position. so anything away from that is not a compromised position. the thing i would say to democrats is please, please, please, please stop that wedding. joe biden has done more, think about joe biden's record. not only his record on building the economy and all that. think about his political record. joe biden has done what barack obama never did, which is win legislative races, win congressional races, and win senate races. barack obama never was able to do that. barack obama lost a thousand legislative seats in his presidency. he lost 69 house seats in his presidency and he lost 13 senate seats in his presidency. joe biden on politics, not only on substantive issues he's delivered. he's delivered on politics in election after election. so that's the first thing. quit whining. the second thing is learn the lessons of 2022, of 2020, and of

2023. focus on the things that matter to the american public. broaden the campaign as broad as possible about fundamental freedoms for you and your children. freedom of reproductive rights, freedom for your children at schools, to live economically in a way that you can afford things. all of those things, broaden the campaign as big as possible. and don't get dragged down into the mud pit. and where the republicans want you to go about forcing you to sort of pick a culture of either a multiculturism or one culture of white america. whatever it is. do not allow them to drag you into this cultural basement that they want to drag everybody down into. and the third thing i say is, i'll reiterate what claire just said. mike johnson, more people long about mike johnson by november of 2024. they'll know about him as many as donald trump. it's amazing to me that trying

to remove donald trump, they heightened mike johnson. in many ways is way worse than donald trump. >> the extremism of the republican party is the slow motion scandal, right? and because it comes in fits and starts, it doesn't always garner the stop and watch. we focus on it here like a laser because sixth sense, i see dead people. i see the party, i know what it's doing and i know how it operationalizes what it says to do. and when it is deployed to do the darkest things. to say it out loud, i believe senator mike lee said it, too. you make the democracy argument for the voters. and i have always believed that voters are really, really smart. i think it is easier when the issues tell their own story. and will the issue of removing

freedom over one's bodily ought only me, particularly as claire said, if you are a 10-year-old rape victim, which was a story that had to be familiar to some voters because there was a 10-year-old rape victim who had to travel. the doctors and everyone involved are under scrutiny. the story begins to fit in. i wonder if you could offer your sage advice for what this moment requires in this bed-wetting vein that he has teed up for us. >> in terms of the bed-wetting vein, i'm sure you, and matthew as well, young people want to enter politics. what should i do? keep doing what you're doing. my wife thinks that is dismissive. if you're pursuing it, keep doing what you're doing. you're doing the right things. democrats are doing the right things. you're winning elections in an environment where people are putting in front of voters a

challenge to their own freedom. and that's why in the previous segment, what i think that voters are making the connection between a loss of reproductive rights in a pro dobbs, post dobbs environment, to very basic questions about the country they live in. do you believe that democracy is stronger or weaker under republicans? do you believe the american experiment is more promising or less under republicans? because that's at the foundation of this question about roe v. wade and dobbs and reproductive freedom. they are shooting the person who is not maga enough. and they're reminding voters that we are the maga nation and we are going to take away your rights. democrats have put the family conversation to bed. you don't see the debate among democratsful are we too progressive? too moderate? oh, no, joe biden is president

and democrats have outperformed in '18 and '20 and '22 and they'll outperform in '24. voters are telling you, they're smart enough to see the contrast. >> wow, thank you so much for starting us off today. claire sticks around for the rest of the hour. up next, ivanka trump has left the building. she just wrapped her day on the witness stand. we'll break down how that went for her after a quick break. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year.

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every day brings new opportunities to my work in the trump organization. we're opening a project in rio. an iconic project in washington, d.c. >> do you have a favorite part? >> i love it all. real estate is my first passion. i grew up knowing this was what i wanted to do. >> we'll leave it right there. just like her father, ivanka trump built her own brand off the house of cards that is the trumporing which has been found liable for fraud already. which is why her testimony today in the civil fraud trial against the trump organization marks something of a reversal of fortunes for the expresident's oldest daughter. on the stand today, that confidence, the self-assured business woman image that she's spent years building disappeared in an instant.

nbc reports this about her testimony. she smiles and speaks softly, has started to repeat the phrase, quote, i don't recall in response to documents being shown to her including letters and emails she wrote herself. ivanka trump appeared today not as a co-defendant but as wade. she was removed as a defendant back in june but prosecutors insist she is a critical player in what they allege was a years long pattern of fraud and deceit. >> ivanka trump secured, negotiated loans to obtain favorable terms based on fraudulent statements of financial and she will attempt to distance herself from the company. but unfortunately, the facts will reveal that in fact, she was very much involved. you cannot hide from the truth. and the facts will belie the

truth and the evidence. >> meanwhile, trump's attorneys sought to limit ivanka's testony. once again from nbc news, the trump lawyer said questions about ivanka trump's involvement in the deal to convert the old post office in washington, d.c. into a hot were irrelevant because of statute of limitation issues, and noted the government agency involved in the talks was happy with it. quote, they were thrilled with the renovation and it was a world class facility, kise said. quote, you're starting to sound like your client. at the table for reporting in what went down in court today, former top prosecutor at the department of justice, now an msnbc legal analyst. vandal fair correspondent, our friend, emily is back. she wrote the book literally on ivanka trump. this was something that ivanka trump didn't want to happen.

we all know that because she said she had childcare issues which i'm always sympathetic to. the judge didn't buy it. what was today like for ivanka? >> i know this is so silly to even talk about on the broadcast like this. to someone like you. i think this is important to note. this came at an incredibly inopportune time for ivanka trump. she's spent much of the last few years essentially hibernating in miami. over the last month or so, you start to see her perhaps coming out of her shell a little bit. this is so silly to say. she was invited to kim kardashian's birthday party in los angeles and it was the first time as an ivanka watcher that i saw her being included in something publicly social and publicly, highly watched. so this moment of being reattached to her father, to her father's business practices on a stage for a fairly negative trial that is happening in new york was not happening at the moment she wanted it to happen. i think what we saw today was

quintessential ivanka. she is either someone always in the room where it happens or never in the room when it happens, when it depends what the it is. when it is something positive or negative for her brand. today we saw a very reticent ivanka trump. someone clearly trying to backtrack her involvement here. for this moment, it did not serve her to be the person who was the hot shot business person set to take over the trump organization had that worked out better for them. >> so interesting. we have to look at the trumps in terms of what the trumps aspire to be. and i'm sure she aspired to be invited to things like that, being alongside kim kardashian probably did represent rubbing off some of the stain of being by her father's side for the presidency. i want to ask you about her involvement about the businesses. you wrote about it. that she was the magic sauce

that made it possible. she wasn't just in the room. she made it happen. >> as you saw in the documents, if her testimony wasn't illuminating, the documents certainly were. she and her husband jared kushner were the people who introduced president trump and the trump organization to the private banker who is so instrumental to all of this. so to erase her involvement in this is nearly impossible, as hard as she might try on the stand today. it is so difficult to say. i think this is what we saw when she went to washington at the same time. she was so integral to the president's business, to his demeanor, to his entire operation. she was the one child who was brought to washington despite that her brothers would have loved the chance to go down as well. she was a real key to everything that he did, both in his political life and in his business life. she was truly a magician in someone who was perhaps if her father was chotic and

combustible, she was calm in the middle of all of it. she always said being underestimated was her super power. i think she would go into this room and people would say this is a pretty face. this is someone who can't possibly know enough about business and she would come very prepared with all the financial information and all the vision. she used the fact that she was his beautiful poised daughter as a benefit for her and really tried to do all the things that perhaps her father wasn't suited to do. >> andrew, to emily's reporting, she was very prepared and had all the information. that's some of what was presented her to. her own emails. her own preparation. what happens if you look at something and say, i don't remember that. can you get away with that? can you leave it at that? >> well, i'm going to pick up on a theme that emily touched on

which is testimony of what was happening in terms of the question and answers today, and the documents. so it is really two different stories. the state really didn't really further its case. they had the documents. the documents don't lie. they are what they are. and in many ways, what they got out of today was by ivanka constantly saying, i don't know, i don't recall, is she wasn't refuting anything there. so they have those documents without a witness saying, you know what? that's not accurate. that's not what happened. or there is a different spin to that story. so i don't think they sort of advanced their pace too much. but they didn't lose anything. that's sort of an importance that they have that piece. as emily that, she was integral to a lot of this. i think where she helped herself is one, honestly, by just could go the i don't recall. it is to point out, it is a long

time ago. she is out of this case as a defendant in part because her main involvement happened prior to what's called the statute of limitations. it does make it more plausible that she wouldn't remember specific things. obviously, the judge will make a decision whether he thinks that she was feigning that kind of ignorance. particularly the key thing that she said she did not recall, and was not involved in was very self-serving which was the financial statements. that's where she can say i was involved in putting deals together, in introducing people to deutsche bank. but when it came to the critical documents which the state has said, or the judges found, she said i did not have a role preparing those. that was her effort to help herself. she did a pretty good job

removing herself from that. but it is the case that the documents she's on don't lie as tish jane said. >> my colleague tweeted this. ivanka's direct testimony is over and has been relatively placid. that doesn't mean there weren't surprises. the ag's lawyer just showed ivanka proof that despite making a personal guarantee to deutsche bank in question, the old post office loan, trump entered an agreement with his kids through which he agreed to pay to make sure he could meet that obligation. i don't know anything about how they move money around but that sounds strange. >> what is critical there, that goes to documents the state had. whether or not she testified and they can prove it. it really came out loud and clear that donald trump's personal guarantee, his personal

wealth was what drove this. in other words, deutsche bank may be able to say we seemed happy enough with this, or the post office people who entered into it seemed happy enough with it. that's because the state will argue, they didn't know at the time what was being presented to them was falsely inflated. and the critical part that they guarantee is a theme that you'll hear repeatedly from the state. the state rested today. so their case is over, subject to their one caveat was the ability to recall mr. weisselberg. now it is the other defendants, whether they will have some defense to the other causes of action being tried here. >> we need to you stick around.

emily jane fox, it is wonderful to see your face. up next, the judge in the january 6th election interference case. they have ordered donald trump to tell prosecutors how he plans to defend himself, if he will blame the lawyers. what that means is next. what th. you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? i don't. cascade platinum plus... with double the dawn grease fighting power and double the scrubbing power. for a no rewash clean... and a cabinet ready shine. upgrade to cascade platinum plus.

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special counsel jack smith against donald trump, federal judge tanya chutkan ordered that by january 15th, donald trump's team will not only have to disclose whether they will rely on advice of counsel defense, they'll also have to provide relevant documentation of that defense on that day. federal prosecutors have argued that trump knew he was engaged in illegal conduct when he fomented the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. trump's team could argue he was just following the advice he got from his lawyers. we're back with andrew weissman and claire mccaskill. andrew, first, tell me what this means. and second, tell me what you think will happen. >> sure. so this is fairly standard, which is in order for a trial not to be delayed, the trial judge is allowed when it comes to certain defenses and expert evidence to ask the defense to disclose that information, just as the government has to do it

before the trial. otherwise, you basically start the trial, and then you have to wait while people on both sides would prepare for that evidence. so the rules allow for this kind of pretrial disclosure. that's all that's going on in terms of this ruling, saying that by january 15th, a date that donald trump's team agreed to, you have to tell the government whether you're going to seek to rely on advice of counsel. nicolle, i think the important thing here is it's just a question of whether the defense is going to seek to rely on this. they may not. but just to be clear, that doesn't mean that the judge is going to allow that defense. there are all sorts of prerequisites to it. first of all, a lawyer has to be identified who actually said this is legal. the lawyer has to have been given all of the necessary factual information and the defendant has to have relied on

it in good faith. as you might surmise from that last part, in order to have an advice of counsel defense, and you need this good faith reliance, it is almost always the case that the defendant needs to testify that they relied on this in good faith. and that would be a hard thing because it would mean that donald trump would have to testify as to his reliance on this. even if there is a lawyer who would say that they advised him on all of the aspects of the scheme that they were legal. i personally have a huge problem thinking that there is a lawyer who is going to say i advised donald trump that it's okay to lie, to use deceit, to threaten brad raffensperger, the georgia secretary of state. there are so many parts of this scheme, it's hard to imagine that a lawyer with full knowledge of the facts said yes, i think that is legal.

but i think that the kicker here as to why i'm not particularly worried this is going to come up at trial is the idea that donald trump would have to testify to his good faith reliance seems like something that he is not going to want to do. it is not a great strategy for him to take the stand in a criminal case. it would i think be a real boon to the government for the reasons we have discussed many times over. >> in the vein of how bad is it, it's so bad, bill barr thinks it's a stupid idea, let me show you this, claire. >> is it a credible defense to say he was just listening to john eastman? >> i don't think that -- that dog is going to hunt, as you say. first, as to people who had some knowledge of whether or not there was fraud, everyone was telling him the election was not stolen by fraud. he wouldn't listen to all the lawyers in the department who in various departments or the white house that had those responsibilities, or his campaign.

he would search for a lawyer who would give him the advice he wanted. >> and even when he lands on eastman, it's in the record, the congressional record that eastman knew that his plot was illegal. it violated the electoral count act and then it would lose 0-9 in the supreme court. >> the other interesting wrinkle on this is that his lawyers have started pleading guilty to crimes. they've already said yeah, well, we broke the law. so, you know what, that they're going to be the lawyers that he's going to use that he relied on? the ones who already said we broke the law around these issues? i'm with andrew. first of all, i think his lawyers are going to try very hard to keep him from the stand, because i think people get the wrong impression from this civil trial and what happened with donald trump on the stand in front of a judge versus the kind of cross-examination he would be

subjected to in some of these other trials. it would be much different, and it would be incredibly combative and ugly, and they would completely lose control of what he said and did. and that's a very dangerous thing to do when you can go to prison for it. >> you are correct. my wheels are spinning as you're talking. andrew weissman and claire mccasss skill, thank you so much for making sense of all this for us. up next for us, mary trump will be here, ex-niece of the president. she has the warning of the dangers of another trump presidency. she joins us coming up. don't go anywhere.

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he's being accused on one level of being an entirely unsuccessful businessman. he is being accused of being a total failure, and in order to counter that, he needs to start bragging about how much he's worth and he needs to start insulting people and feel like he is dominating. and as you alluded to, it made him walk into every single trap that was set for him, and probably some that wooempbt set intentionally. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york on another day in the same week that donald trump would like to forget. today he is staring down a series of big losses at the ballot box for candidates he endorsed and campaigned for. voters rejected bigley his extreme maga policies and yet again affirmed with their

ballots that his decision to appoint supreme court justices who would overturn roe v. wade was a massive political failure. today also saw donald trump's favorite daughter ivanka take the stand in the $250 million civil fraud trial that will determine the future of his business empire in new york. ivanka did not make the same spectacle of herself as her father did when he testified on monday. on her end, there were repeated refrains of "i do not recall" when she was pressed about financial statements. and then this afternoon, during her cross-examination by trump's lawyers, "the new york times" kes is interesting point in the assessment o her testimony. quote, this is t first time today thatvanka trump has resembled her father. her answers a long and meandering. typically he would focus on the golf and i would focus on the resort itself, she says, of their division of labor at doral. of course, this civil fraud trial is just the beginning of legal battles donald trump will o we and face in the

coming year. politico reports this. quote, he is facing three criminal trials in the fir half of next year, and fourth yet to be scheduled. a gauntlet that guarantees his court dates will effectively become an ext of his political campai indeed, trump has already used a makeshift cpaign stop, even jeing some of his frequent trump speak lines. in some ways the upcoming criminals wl make the circusrounding the fraud trial look like a sideshow. the stakes will be eve higher, the politicperare will be even hotter, and the restrictions on trump's conduct will be more onerous than the relatively lax procedures of the civil fraud case. that is where we start today with our friend "new york times" investigative reporter sue craig. she was inside the courtroom for ivanka's testimony. she is here to empty her notebook once again. what happened? >> well, it started out, it seemed like the attorney

general, for the first few hours, it felt like they were trying to get evidence into the record. they would ask her about it. and time and time again, she said "i don't recall" to the point where i actually started a list back here of all the times she said "i don't recall." i gave up around noon. it was just over and over and over, but it was effective because the attorney general, they managed to get a lot of emails in. and secondly, they established -- >> so they would ask her about an email she had written or received and she would say i don't remember. >> she would say i don't recall. what the emails showed is she was involved and very much the detail, particularly two loans involving deutsche bank. one went to the hotel. we've heard a lot about, it was the old post office hotel in washington, and the second one was to a golf course just outside of miami called doral. and she was very involved top to bottom in those projects. they were both kind of renovations that were done. they were both white elephants that the trumps had bought and

rehabbed them. and she had detailed communication with them, including things like -- you know, when you get a loan, these banks often require if you're individuals involved to maintain a certain net worth, things like that. and that goes to the financial statements if they were fraud, maybe he wasn't maintaining that level of money. >> excuse me. >> that's okay. so that's sort of what we were seeing as the morning went on. but it was different, different aspects or version. >> and what they're succeeding in doing every time she doesn't remember is they say there is no confrontation with ivanka, but they're able to enter her emails into the record. >> right. >> but did they -- on cross did they get anything out of her? >> it was interesting, because she is the first trump to have been given the cross-examination. and i think the -- her brothers will be backs for cross-examination and possibly donald trump. but i think where you saw the sort of turn, and i think she kind of turned a little bit more into her father, not in the

explosive that we saw when he was up, but just talking about the properties, she was cross-examined. she started talking about the relationship that the trump organization had with deutsche bank. and at one point, deutsche bank asked them to participate in a promotional video. and she talked about that, and what that went to, it wasn't explicitly said, but what it went to is to show just how happy the banks were with the trump organization. they were making videos. they were asking them if a senior executive was going to be in from germany, would ivanka or would donald or somebody from the trump organization have dinner with them. it's to really demonstrate how happy deutsche bank was. and i think we're going to see going forward now, because the cross-examination is starting, we're going to see more and more of that one-line of argument that the loans were

performative. the banks got paid back. the other side of that is the banks potentially should have gotten more money back. >> right. >> but we're going see more of that. this is the first time we've really seen that argument come out on cross with a member of the family. >> what happens next? >> so tomorrow there will probably be some procedural things. but then the court is dark friday, because it's veterans day. and then monday we're going to pick up with the -- the defense is going to be calling their witnesses. and we're going have people come in who are going to, and we know this because it's been alluded to in the court, there are witnesses list out that are going to say the properties were worth more, that the relationships were good, and probably have people come in saying that the banks shouldn't have relied on these financial statements. we've had somebody from deutsche bank come in who did say there was reliance on the financial statements. i don't know. but i'm guessing they're going to have other people from the banks come in saying we didn't

rely on them. we did our own due diligence, because that's another argument that the trump organization has been making as they try to sort of sway the judge for whatever they can at this point for whatever left. >> the judge seemed to lose patience in the president's lawyer there seemed to be a sharp exchange. he said you're turning into your client you. sound like your client. what is that about? >> he did. i have to say today was pretty muted all around. you didn't see the fireworks today. i think they continue to spar, but they also have moments that are less talked about where they're collegial. but we saw a little bit of that today, but nothing like what we saw. >> monday. >> when donald trump was in court. that was fireworks. really serious fireworks. >> did ivanka seem -- you know, when you watch the taped depositions of her from the january 6th select committee, the congressional probe, she looks lovely. she's very polished.

it looks like there is nowhere -- it looks like she is standing in a hot sun. there is nowhere she less wants to be. is there anything -- i know you sort of picked up on and reported on trump's physicality. is there anything about her that seemed to sort of betray how badly she tried to not be there today? >> i thought she was a very disciplined witness, unlike what we have seen with eric and with donald trump. she was very much when she could, she was listening to whether or not it was a yes/no question and she didn't stray. we saw a little bit on the cross where she started to talk about how great the properties were and that sort of thing, and she kind of went into a bit of a -- i call it the travel brochure mode. but for the most part i found her to be quite disciplined. i think for her point of view, we think her best outcome today was just to get off the stand and try not to dig a deeper hole for her father's company. and i think -- and from her point of view, i think that may have worked. she was much more disciplined

than any of the other ones. >> and again, that's a relative comparison, right? trump. we're going to ask you to stick around, if you will. i want to bring into our conversation for a look the mind of the trump family, someone who knows better than just about anyone, mary trump. she is of course donald trump's niece. thank you so much for being here. it's so nice to talk to you about all of this. as you see the trial and you see the reporting, and i know you talked to lawrence about it, trump had a meltdown. it seems that for all the serious crimes he's accused of, this finding of fraud against his company has him the most agitated. >> yeah, and first of all, it's great to see you, nicolle. it is so telling, and i think people really need to understand just how this case gets to the heart of who donald thinks he is and has been pretending to be for his entire adult life. he doesn't mind that he is going

to be on trial for heading up a corrupt organization or stealing government documents or inciting an insurrection, because that gives him street cred with his base. in this case, what's happening is he is being forced to confront the possibility that he is not going to be able to get away anymore with pretending that he is a successful businessman. now the fact that myth survived the extraordinary work that sue craig and russ buettner did in 2018 is kind of mind-boggling. but this is happening in a much more public way, because donald's actually there, which just goes to how extraordinarily important it is for him to try to spin this case away from the truth, which is that he is an entitled loser who did nothing but waste his father's fortune. >> it's such an important slice of the trump story to understand why this matters to him. and i mean, you articulate that

perfectly. i've been inching around it, but that's right. but this idea that this one matters and this one hurts him with his street cred, with his own people, seems to be even more vital when you look at the results of the election last night. information can seep into all sides of the information ecosystem. if it's information that's relevant. and it seems that trump's cred on the business piece is central to why his base thinks they like him and need him. >> right. >> particularly if they continue to be talking about economic grievance. i mean, this goes to the heart of how he duped them. and i wonder if you could just pull the thread on how terrified he is of being called out. >> i think the simplest way to put it is this. every lie he's told, every ounce of psychic energy he's spent over the decades has been in the

service of protecting him from the truth about who he is. and the closer he gets to being confronted with that truth, the more dangerous he is going to get, the more out of control he is going to get. yes, we saw some fireworks in the courtroom, but that was a mere prelude to what we can expect, especially if, hopefully, he loses in 2024. >> sue? >> yeah, you're thinking about, and we heard in court today a lot ivanka is talking about how successful these projects were. and that's a word we hear a lot. we hear other adjectives about just how great these properties are. and i'm not disputing they weren't, the renovation itself in that building isn't a huge success, but it's not a financial success. you know, there was a note today that showed donald trump out of that got $126 million when the old post office, the hotel was sold in 2022.

but what you don't see behind that is that every year it lost money. he lost $74 million just in operating it. he had to put in millions of dollars for the investment and put in additional capital along the way. when we've had a look at his taxes, which we've got in 2020, we saw for the most part these properties don't -- his businesses don't make money, and he's having to shore them up. so any one that does make money, there are a few that is successful, that money, and also the money that he made from "the apprentice" and that he inherited from fred a long time ago, it goes in to shore up these money-losing investments that he makes. he buys, for the most part, they are white elephants. we talked about two in court today, the old post office for 100 years, the history of that and how hard it was to work. and then secondly, doral. and they pour -- they pour 10s of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars into these properties. and i don't think there is a lot of dispute.

maybe somebody has had a bad experience in one of their hotels. they're nice hotels, but they are all for the most part losing money. >> they're all losers is what she is saying, mary. and i don't know that we understood how triggering, what a triggering event it is for trump to be a loser. we learned it from sue and russ's reporting, the elaborate steps he takes to not be a business loser, to not say my dad gave me money and i squandered it. elaborate, elaborate steps. but i think we failed to learn that and understand that ahead of the 2020 election. i think that's why it was so hard for republicans first. they enabled him to have his little tantrum and say i didn't lose. of course he lost, right? every presidential election, one of the two people loses. but i wonder what price, what bills you think are coming due for the inability to understand his inability to lose? >> unfortunately, we're going find out one way or the other.

we've already seen reporting that if donald were to win in 2024, his team of truly the most despicable anti-american people on the planet is essentially planning to turn this country into a military dictatorship with lots of revenge on the side. what we don't yet know yet, what we don't yet know is what they're planning to do if he loses the 2024 election, which i still believe is more likely than not. so the republicans had so many offramps to take. the most obvious one was the insurrection on january 6th. time after time, they refused because they are too afraid of losing the base. and it's too late now. it is absolutely too late, barring unforeseen circumstances, donald will be the republican presidential nominee for 2024. and we can lay all of that at the feet of the cowardice and

quite frankly just the power-hungry anti-democratic whim of the republican party. >> yeah, i mean, i've thought that if you wanted to do an experiment to see what happens in this country when one of the two parties collapses and stops, not just being for our democracy, but actively tearing it down, you would do what has happened over the last four years. no one would want that, so no one would do that. so we're living through that brutal experiment. i wonder, you've publicly challenged him, and he is in your family. lots of journalists have gone after the truth, not to challenge him personally, but to seek the truth and find the truth. what do you say to the -- there is a debate tonight, which is nothing more than a charade. they haven't run against him. they haven't challenged him. they haven't developed evidence of how unpresidential and republican and anti-conservative and anti-democratic he is to try to defeat him.

they have acted like characters in a play. why do you think that is? >> because they know that they cannot win. so the best they can do is try to get second place. and i don't know if they understand that that's meaningless. only the winner wins in a nominating contest. and it does make you wonder. i thought the entire purpose of chris christie's campaign was to do exactly what you just said, challenge him. and none of them will, because they also know that challenging him, even if they became the nominee means they lose the base, and they also know that they are utterly lacking some of the things that donald has going for him. and believe it or not, there are some things. one, he is the leader of the republican party, whether we like that or not. and two, he has this thing called charisma. it doesn't appeal to me or people like me, but it does appeal to tens of millions of

americans, and nobody who is going to be on that stage tonight has that, nor do they have the five decades of media coverage that donald has. >> i want to give -- mary sticks around. we're going to continue to pull this thread on democracy. but i want to give you the last word on the idea of his charisma. how much of his sort of pre-2016 identity, or going into 2016 is sort of predicated on what's now been found to be a fraud, the business acumen? >> i think the business acumen was at the heart of it. he ran on this idea that he was the self-made guy, that it was his know how that america needed at the time. a lot of it does -- we've talked about this. this goes back to mark burnett. i've talked to producers on that show. it started in 2004. and when they showed up in his office to sort of get the filming going and to start setting up and to make the show,

you know, they couldn't believe. they talked about how the carpet smells and they couldn't believe how small it was, and it was mark burnett who imagined that boardroom that put -- that donald trump sat in every day, there was no boardroom like that at the trump organization. he is a creation of mark burnett. and the other thing that is important about mark burnett isn't just the image he created that did catapult him to being able to get to the white house, he got a fortune from mark burnett, whose finances were not in great shape coming into 2004, and our reporting showed, because we've gotten his taxes, that he got more than $400 million. >> wow. >> from "the apprentice" and from auxiliary licensing deals that happened. and that aloud him then to go and do other projects, most of which have lost money. but that rush of money was so important to his business. so it's not just the image that was created, it was the money. >> right. >> you cannot underscore how important mark burnett is to

donald trump's success. >> a producer. >> a tv producer. >> it's incredible. we're so grateful that you're down there. thank you so much for your reporting. mary, please stick around with us. we have much more to talk about. when we come back, we'll show you what hillary clinton had to say. it has a real echo to what mary's talking about. a dire warning about how authoritarians seize their power. we'll play it for you after a short break. also ahead for us, the disgraced ex-president likes to brag that he is the one who got rid of roe v. wade. like a lot of things trump has done, it's not working out so well for the republican party. boo hoo. we'll drill down further on the issue that is motivating others like no other. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ (wife) carolers! to tell me you want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. (husband) no way they'd take this wreck. (carolers) ♪ yes, they will, and you'll get iphone 15 pro, ♪ ♪ aaannnnnddddd apple tv 4k, and apple one - ♪ ♪ all three on them! ♪ (wife) do that.

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you could see it in countries where -- well, hitler was duly elected. >> that's right. >> all of the sudden somebody those tendencies, dictatorial aught they'rian tendencies, okay, we're going shut 24 down, we're going to throw these people in jail. and they didn't usually telegraph that. trump is telling us what he intends to do. >> we need to listen to that. >> take him at his word. the man means to throw people in jail who disagree with him, shut down legitimate press outlets, do what he can to literally undermine the rule of law and our country's values. >> we're back with mary trump, the founder and chair of the democracy defense fund. this is the thing, and i know we sound like a broken record

sometimes around here. but he is telling us that he will end our democracy. he is telling us he will take nbc and msnbc off the air. he is telling us he will prosecute chairman milley for treason. he is telling us he will go after john kelly and bill barr. how does he still have a grip on his own party and his own base? >> i just want the point out that your periodic remind they're hillary clinton was right about everything -- i'm sorry, i almost swore. >> you can actually do that here. i think bill barr broke the seal on that. she was. she was right about everything. >> yeah. and we need to be paying attention to what she is saying and echoing it at every opportunity. the reason -- there are many reasons that people stick with him, and that sort of an irony, especially given what's going on in new york and what matters to donald.

one of the reasons his base is so attached to him is because he is a loser. he is a loser that makes them feel better about themselves because he is a loser who has failed up, and maybe they can too, if they have something like him on their side. they also love the fact that this entitled extraordinarily privileged white man from new york gets away with everything, which he has done. yes, there have been some judgments against him. yes, there have been some monetary penalties assigned to him, but he's running to be president of the united states of america. that is the obscenity, and that is what we have the republicans to thank for, because if the republicans cared about democracy, if they cared about fixing their party and fixing the system, they would just take it on the chin and lose the next

cycle and clean house. but they are revealing themselves to be who they are, which is just like donald. all they care about is their personal ambition and their personal hold on power. >> what does it mean for the rest of us, right? i feel like on earth one we spend a lot of time trying to understand what you just articulated better than anyone else ever has. but what does it require of us who want to hang on to democracy without the assistance from the other major political party in the country? >> i think the first thing we need to do is acknowledge that the deck is stacked against us. between gerrymandering and the electoral college and voter suppression, democrats have to outperform republicans just to break even. so acknowledging that is important. instead of being demoralized by it, we need to organize against it and just show up more. i know that's frustrating, and it's not a particularly great

answer, but it's just the reality. and we don't do ourselves any favors by pretending otherwise. the other thing we need to do is to help people understand what democracy is. i don't think we often get that message right. and that's why last night was so incredibly heartening, because it wasn't simply the results that showed that people have been paying very close attention since the egregious dobbs decision and continue to protect and enshrine abortion rights in very red states, it's also knowing that in school board elections, the moms for quote, unquote liberty lost resoundingly. these interest people who want to ban our books. these are the people who want our children to grow up ignorant and afraid, and we prevailed against them too. >> i may get in trouble for saying this, but i asked a

political consultant the same question i just asked you, and he gave this answer, that, you know, what democrats have to do is work twice as hard for half the results, right. that because of gerrymandering, you have to win twice at much in certain places. and the idea that voters see that, that they're sort of market correcting for that is an incredibly encouraging sign. and voters do usually get it right. i wonder if you could just pull the thread a little bit farther for me and tell me what joe biden should do in your view. >> well, i think a lot of it is out of his hands. he is -- he has been one of if not the most successful first term presidents in my lifetime. so it's troubling that that message isn't getting across, and i think a lot of it is simply the way arguments get framed. and if we have a poll that shows that 66% of people think that joe biden is not mentally fit to

be president, but only 44% think donald trump isn't fit, that's a messaging problem. and i'm not really sure what joe biden can do about it, because i don't think he can get younger. but neither can donald trump. so other than that, though, i think there have been occasions on which president biden has very clearly laid out the threat facing us. i would like to see him be even more forthright and blunt. i would like to see him use the word "fascism" in describing what america is up against. i would like for him to talk about the dangers not just of voter suppression, which i think people are becoming more and more familiar with, but voter suppression. i don't know if i said the same thing twice. the difference between voter suppression is making it harder for people to vote. and the second thing is making people not trust the democratic

process. and that's something that donald and republicans are very invested in, because they know in a fair fight, they cannot win. that's what the rico case in georgia is all about. they know they need to game the system. that's what gerrymandering is all about. so if president biden in this home stretch we're in can just let it fly and be deeply honest with the american people and help them understand what's at stake, that it isn't about him, it's not about donald trump. it's about protecting and saving american democracy so we don't have to keep going through this every four years. because honestly, nicolle, it's unsustainable. >> right. >> every election cannot be the most important election in our lifetime because then that prevents us from actually making democracy better. >> right. if you're always saving it from ruin, you're never actually

making it better and stronger and expanding the enterprise for more people, which was the concept. i hope you never, ever, ever stop letting it fly. you are such a gift to the conversation and to of speak without fear about your own uncle is such a precious gift to the conversation. thank you so much for spending time with us and sharing it. really grateful. >> thank you, nicolle. when we return, we'll keep going. we'll go deeper on this issue of freedom, reproductive freedom, and rights. the issue that has once again fueled massive democratic victories all across the country in some of our reddest corners, in fact. and the one guy who made it all possible brought to you by donald trump who brags about ending roe. the twice impeached, four times indicted disgraced ex-president. that conversation after a short break.

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i'm the one that got rid of roe v. wade. and everybody said that was an impossible thing to do. they've given the pro-life people who are wonderful people and loving people, i've given them the power of negotiation. because now they're able to negotiate something that's going to be very important. >> said the way one might say i'm the one who got taylor swift tickets. who says that? to hear that sound in political ad in political ad after political ad for the next 12 months, as voters last night showed once again they not sit

by quietly while republicans try to strip away access to abortion health care. republicans who were hoping that americans had looked the other way or gotten over the fact that a constitutional right that had been enjoyed by americans for 50 years was taken away from them. anyone who thought that had gone away or ebbed was sadly mistaken. in any every single election that was tangentially about abortion, from ohio to the virginia state legislative elections, to the pennsylvania supreme court election, to the kentucky governor's race, voters sent a resounding message at the ballot box, no thank you. we will not go back. perhaps the biggest lose other of the night was virginia governor glenn youngkin, who bet his political future on attempting to gaslight voters, saying that his proposed 15-week abortion ban wasn't an abortion ban at all. here he is last night just before the polls closed.

>> well, i think -- i think our position in order to protect life at 15 weeks is a position that virginians can come around. and it's one that nearly 70% of virginians say they can support. and thing is a chance for virginia to prove to be a leader, to bring people together around one of the most difficult topics in america. and i think we can lead here. >> to that virginia said no thank you. given the overwhelming evidence, the voters are out of step with the gop position on abortion. expect republicans running in 2024, including the four times indicted ex-president to try the launder their positions and votes and views on abortion, but never forget who got us here. >> today i am keeping another promise to the american people by nominating judge neil gorsuch of the united states supreme court to be of the united states

supreme court. i will nominate judge brett kavanaugh to the united states supreme court. [ applause ] >> today it is my honor to nominate one of our nation's most brilliant and gifted legal minds to the supreme court, judge amy coney barrett. >> joining our conversation, the president and ceo of the national women's law center action fund, fatimas go graves. also joining us the editor at large of the 19th, msnbc contributor errin haines, and msnbc political analyst cornell belcher is here. fatima, i go to you first. your thoughts on last night. >> i think what we learned last night is people are ready to fight for their freedoms. they're ready to fight for their democracy. and when abortion is on the ballot, voters will show up. and they'll show up whether it is a constitutional amendment like you saw in ohio or whether the candidate is clear in their

position, like you saw with the governor of kentucky, who was clear in his support for access to abortion. and they aren't confused by this effort by republicans to rebrand abortion in this moment. you cannot suddenly tell me that your efforts to ban abortion are a compromise or are reasonable or some other word. a ban is a ban, and it's extreme. and people are going to fight for their freedom. they're going show up for themselves. but they're also showing up for everyone in their community. >>errin, i think there might be a mistake in how we talked about it since roe has been overturned. independent women are out of reach. trump voters voted on the side of abortion. in kentucky, that's a plus 26 trump state that re-elected a democratic governor who ran on abortion, specifically on the issue of eliminating exceptions in cases of rape. in ohio, it's a state where

biden is polling at 41%. the issue won 20% on top of that. it's a plus 20 issue in ohio. these are republicans. these are republican men. these are trump voters voting to preserve or return to roe. >> yeah. i think voters are paying attention. we talk about voter enthusiasm for an election that's happening a year now. voters are locked in right now. and what they are saying is to fatima's point, you have the former president, you have governor youngkin trying to kind of do revisionist history if you will about where their positions are now for these voters, this issue is nonnegotiable. and that's what they have said over and over and over again, whether abortion is literally or figuratively on the ballot. ohio, red state as you point out now, nicolle. these voters overwhelmingly choosing issue one, rejecting

glenn youngkin's -- he is talking now about how people may come to a 15-week abortion ban when he clearly signaled a state-wide abortion ban was an option if republicans had been able to regain control of the state house in virginia. voters understood that message. they understood what the stakes were on this. and let me also just say this. this issue absolutely gendered. women continuing to galvanize and mobilize and be energized by this issue. but republican men run thong issue continue to lose on this issue. and democratic men who are running on this issue are winning. look at what happened in kentucky. >> yeah. cornell, let me read you this from msnbc's reporting on our exit polls. in ohio issue 1 wasuprted by majorities of men, women, white voters, black voter, hispanic voters and across ages 18 to 64, according to msnbc exit polling. and that was an affirmative vote to enshrine abortion rights into the state constitution. what is it that democrats should

do this morning today and tomorrow? >> well, thanks, nicolle. but i want to step back for a moment and talk about campaigns and issues and the context. and i want to pick up on something fat team that said about rights. you all will see the polling and the economy and inflation. and crime and border security are all top tier issues. and in some of these polls, reproductive rights is maybe a third or fourth thing down, and people say well the campaign election is all about the economy and crime. there is a difference between a top issue concern and a mobilizing issue. and, look, the economy, and this is to some of our friends in the media who i think oversimplify the narrative too often, because they certainly did that going into the last midterm. i think they did it going into this election too. when they see the election is

the economy. and it's economy, economy, economy, that's all that should be talked about. there is a difference between an issue concern and a mobilizing issue. and clearly, what you have with the rights of women being taken away from them, individuals losing their rights and having the government tell them what they can do with their bodies is a mobilizing issue, right. and in politics, we look for the issues that will rally voters and immobilize them. i hate to say, this but the economy as a top issue isn't often the same mobilizing issue the same way taking away rights are. and to a certain extent, i think we've also oversimplified the narrative around reproductive rights. and you know this, nicolle. you're a political hack like i am. there is no such thing as a silver bullet in politics. you know, there just isn't. and i think yes, reproductive rights is front and center and is a really mobilizing issue, but to voters are complicated and not one-dimensional. i think what reproductive rights

really in lots of ways stands for is a doorway. its most obvious doorway issue to a larger conversation that americans are feeling about their rights being taken away and authoritarianism and racism on the rise and extremism on the rise. thing is a broader thematic connection to this really central mobilizing front and center issue of reproductive rights. >> okay. so we're going to do an hour on mobilizing and sort of top tier because that's really the best articulation, and i think it's really instructive. it's going to be instructive for everyone talking politics for the next year or so. consider you three on notice for that. i want to follow up with you, cornell. thing is -- you and i debated, right, ahead of the midterms whether democracy would move voters. and it did. but i think it's dicey, right? you can't guarantee that i'm going to go vote for democracy. a lot of people will. people that are paying attention all the time. but you will go vote if you see that banning all abortion.

roe was viewed as -- roe was decided by justices appointed by democratic and republican presidents. roe was viewed as the compromise. and when you stripped out the compromise and you put in this thing that was decide on by supreme court justices at a moment of the supreme court's lowest point in terms of civic trust and faith and confidence, it was clear that that was maybe a first step towards something dystopian. i know this is a lot of stops along the way. but i do think that taking away roe did open the door, did get people to turn the first page in the book about threats to democracy. and i wonder if you think that. and i think josh shapiro ran on this last year. i think a lot of the candidates that prevailed last night tied these things together. do you think that is something we'll see more of in the next 12 months? >> it's a doorway, right? it's what we call in politics proof points. you know, it's a proof point.

look, these people are taking away your rights and your rights are under attack. it's the proof point of a larger point about democracy. and look, i was in focus groups two weeks ago with african american voters. and one african american woman talked about losing the reproductive rights as a slippery slope back to segregation and jim crowism. i couldn't make that up. that's the connecting of the thematic dots. in many ways for a campaign, this is a proof point to their extremism, their authoritarianism, and their doorway to talking away multiple rights. and you see that in the dangers not just around reproductive rights, which is a critical right. i can't even talk than right, because i'm man. i can't understand someone telling me what to do with my body. but also rolling back your rights to have to vote and to participate, right. rolling back your rights to read a book that you want or an author that you want. so i think it's a proof point to your point. i think it's a proof point to a

broader conversation, a broader thematic that is about democracy and fighting for our rights. >> i love asking people on live tv if they're available the same time tomorrow, because they always say yes, even if they know they're not, because it's weird to say. no but if you guys are all available same time tomorrow, i'd like to pick up on this conversation about a mobilizing issue and the slippery slope. fatima goss graves, and cornell belcher, consider yourselves invited back tomorrow. we'll be back with that breaking news after a very short break. stay with us. k. stay with us

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we have some breaking news to tell you about on what is an increasingly volatile situation in the middle east. the defense department announcing just a few minutes ago that u.s. forces launched air strikes in eastern syria, hit a facility used by iran's military guard and iranian militias. let's bring in courtney cueby. i was told at the beginning of the week by a former national security official that it has gone underreported how many threats and strikes have been made against u.s. military installations. looks like that picture is coming into view today. tell us what you know. >> reporter: so far, nicolle, we're aware of at least 40 attacks against bases housing americans in iraq and syria, and that really runs the gamut of things like where a drone or a mortar or a rocket is launched towards a base did doesn't come within a mile or two of the base

to actually one of those things striking on the base. there have been at least 46 americans injured. most of those injuries minor, since the uptick in these attacks, which all started october 17th. but as you mentioned, the u.s. military in the last couple hours carrying out air strikes in northeastern syria, carried out by f-15 aircraft, and they stuck a facility housing munitions and weapons potentially of some of these militias, these iranian backed militia groups. and what's notable is in the statement we got from the pentagon about this they specifically also tied this to the iranian cuds force them comes two weeks after the u.s. carried out another series of air strikes in northeastern syria. it was two targets in that case. ammunition and weapons facilities, similar to what we've seen here tonight. the idea is these strikes, the u.s. is trying to deter future

actions by these militia groups by carrying out these strikes. the idea is they're taking out some of their facilities where they might be able to put together one-way attack drones or rockets or mortars, hopefully slowing them down. at the same time defense officials are sending a clear message to iran while they're doing that, and that is you have some authority over these militia groups up fund them, train them, equip them. you need to direct them to stop these sorts of attacks. the big concern here is that one of these attacks, if it is effective and we see american military killed, potentially even like a mass casualty incident, it could lead to a widening of the conflict we're seeing in israel and gaza. that's the real concern defense officials here have about the situation right no nicolle. >> i want to read more from the statement from secretary austin. ai at biden's destruction u.s. military forces constructed

aense strike on a facility in eastern syria. it says the u.s. is prepared to take further measures. we urge against escalation. u.s. personnel will continue to conduct counter-isis missions in iraq and syria. can you quantify for people that don't have your familiarity with the counter-isis missions how much this is a uptick in what is normal? >> the overall mission in iraq and syria is counter isis, but this is different. that's why the statement thaw read from specifically said it was at the direction of president biden. well, that's because this is outside the normal counterisis mission. they're going after iranian revolutionary guard corps, cuds groups everyone, these groups carrying out attacks. this is not the first time we've seen a series of attacks against bases with americans in iraq and

syria. earlier this year, there was one that led to the death of a contractor that case, the u.s. carried out a series of air strikes and we saw basically an end to those sorts of attack against bases since then. the uptick began october 17th. u.s. officials want to say, this has nothing to do with what's going on in israel, in gaza. the reality is there hadn't been these attack on bases for months now, and when the war ticked up in gaza that's when we started seeing them again. >> i imagine these are very busy days for you. thank you for jumping on the air and explaining this to us. we're grateful. another break for us. we'll be right back. other breaks we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ we're building a better postal service. for more on-time deliveries.

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