again. she's the founder of the senate -- at howard university which is hosting its second democracy summit on november the 14th. you can live stream it for free on their youtube channel and on their twitter page. you can see the information for both of those, right here on your screen. i will tweet it out again. i'll also be part of the discussions during the day, so be sure to join us. it's gonna be a very, very important summit. still ahead on velshi, with just five days until that deadline for a government shutdown, dysfunction and inviting continues to roil the gop and you will progress in the house. plus, senator joe manchin's decision not to run for reelection is leading to speculation about his next move and whether or not he would run at a third party presidential candidate. what jumping to their weight would mean for the white house and for democracy itself? another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning. it is sunday, november 12th. i am ali velshi. we are once again counting down

another government shutdown. congress only has five and a half days to pass some kind of measure to keep the federal government funded or otherwise risk closing down some agencies and suspending some services right before the holidays. but as has been the case since the beginning of this congress, unresolved issues within their is functional house republican caucus continue to derail progress. the conference wide call yesterday afternoon, the new speaker mike johnson unveiled his plan to fund the government, which involves a novel approach called a lag, continuing resolution, or c r. under this plan, fundi for some services and agencies, such as military vet programs, department of transportation and housing, and urban development, among others, will be extended at current levels until the first deadline of january 19. meanwhile, funding will be extended until february 2nd, a couple of weeks later, for the rest of the government, including for the departments of state, justice, and health and human services. now, this will be a so-called

clean bill. no other permissions will be attached to it, meaning it will not include funding for ukraine, israel, or border security. the three main sticking points driving divisions in congress recently. but it did not take long for republicans to once again come out against their own parties proposal. just minutes after johnson and knows the latter cr, the last three -- at least three house republicans announced their opposition to the bill. georgia representative marjorie taylor greene said she would be voting no on this clean continuing resolution. warren davidson, republican of ohio, also said he would be voting against it, adding, quote, disappointing is as polite as i can muster. and the texas congressman chip roy posted on x, quote, my opposition to the clean cr, just announced by the speaker of the house gop cannot be overstated. now, roy is against the plan because it doesn't include spending cuts which is one of the sticking points for republican hard-liners, with three republicans already opposing it, at least opening the possibility that mike

johnson, the we hope we can speak, or is going to need the democrats help to pass this bill, which has been the case with the previous the buckles in congress this year. but it is not clear if democrats are gonna be willing to help them out again this time since democrats and both chambers of congress reportedly really dislike this idea. the white house is against it as well, calling it an un-serious proposal, and, quote, a recipe for more republican chaos and more shutdowns, and quote. and even if republicans do managed to pass some kind of stopgap measure in the next five days to avoid a shutdown, there is still cause for concern. over the past two weeks, house republican leadership has canceled votes on three separate appropriations bills that they have been working on because of different factions of their party that have failed to come to an agreement on a number of issues. the ongoing rift prompted one republican lawmaker to remark, quote, we are ungovernable, end quote. that wasn't my favorite comic. my favorite one was texas congressman troy nehls who said,

quote, i don't think the lord, jesus himself, could manage this group. joining me now, lord jesus is not available. he's busy this morning. norman ornstein, senior fellow american enterprise, co-host of words matter podcast. also with us, former republican congressman charlie dent of pennsylvania. he's the executive director and vice president of the congressional program at the aspen institute. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. let me start with you, charlie. gop house leadership unveiled this plan yesterday afternoon less than a week before the shutdown deadline. now, they only selected mike johnson as a speaker a few weeks ago. i'm a little surprised that it's taken this long. i'm a little surprised that mike johnson seems to be surprised that this is not likely to pass with his own party's support. >> correct. look, what he has proposed is not irresponsible. i do not agree with a two-step process, but it finds the government at current levels. the problem that mike johnson

has is that hakeem jeffries has a lot of leverage now because as you just pointed out, the hard-liners within the house republican conference are not going to support this. so democrat votes will be needed, so hakeem jeffries is gonna have a lot of say in what this bill could potentially look like. but that said, this idea of doing a ladder approach, as was proposed, to try and government sequentially, and that might be rolling government shutdown. this approach, though, it will at least keep the government funded. but the problem that, of course, johnson is going to discover is that he needs house democratic votes, and of course the u.s. senate is not gonna be a bystander in this process. and i suspect they are going to reject doing this in two steps. it'll be smarter to do a one-stop gap, the same thing they did on january 9th, and pass all the appropriations bill between now and then. >> norman, this is where we

stand on november 12th, 2023. charlie debts wise evaluation of this is that it's not irresponsible. in other words, that's the bar we are at, right? let mike johnson, speaker of the house, which is a good thing, has proposed something that is not irresponsible, but not possible. and so, now we have to at least, that's a good starting point, we are do you go with this that mike johnson has not displayed himself to be one of the we are those in congress at this moment in this debate, but he's still putting something forward that's gonna be very, very difficult if not impossible to get past. difficult if n>> so, i have to a little bit with my friend charlie. i actually think he is irresponsible. he's trying to carve out some areas of appropriations like defense that they want to fund fully and even add more money, and separate it out from the other agencies and programs, like health and human services, that they would like to cut deeply. they want to try and use that leverage. this is a proposal that came from the house freedom caucus, so that tells you something

about where they are. but it's also the case that novice mike johnson, who really doesn't have much leadership experience at all, is still trying to do what previous republican leaders and one of these four speaker have tried to do, which is to do everything they can with their own caucus. and what we have seen is that they are ungovernable. and i have to say, hallie, that i agree with troy nehls, in one sense, if jesus came back and wanted to be the speaker of the house, the republicans would vote him down because of his positions on four people and on helping out the rest and the least of us in society. >> nobody seems to be able to get enough votes to become speaker. and i guess the point, charlie, mike johnson did. weirdly, we are finding out, you know, as we learn more about him, because when he won a nomination, he was an unknown name to most people, to most

our viewers, to most americans, he wasn't a guy to who anybody knew. it turns out he's got deep connections to the right wing of his party. there are a little bit troublesome, the moderate or having problems with this in the beginning. you and i had this conversation several times, charlie, the moderates are the ones who are stuck again. they're also the ones who have some leverage in this. what should they do in your opinion? >> among the more pragmatic numbers of the conference, i would say, look, let's scrap that two step approach. let's just do one continuing resolution and then finish the appropriations bills. and i would recommend doing it, you know, by the middle of december, finishing it all by them. it's not crazy to take it out to january 9th but i would rather get it done before the holidays. you need that deadline pressure to make it happen. so, i would advise -- i also want to say one thing, to answer what norm said, as i understand, the proposal, they have not separated defense from some of the non-defense bills. the first tranche would deal with military construction

projects, the be a, and energy and water projects, two of the 12 bills. the second tranche would deal with the department of defense and labor and health of human services and all the other ten was. so they haven't separated that out. i would agree that i would never separate defense and non-defense bills. you have to stick them together that would be the right thing to do. i don't think johnson has separated them at this point, at least not in the responsible way. right now, the moderates and the pragmatic numbers really do need, you know, to weigh in, and tell them that they have votes. they are voting for the bill. the hard-liners are not. this has been a problem and house republican congress for a long time. they've been taking advice from the guys who are voting against the bills. now, norm this knows better than anybody, people who are voting for the bills, they have to determine the content of the bill, not the people voting against. and that's why the house gop conference has been so dysfunctional for so many years is because of this dynamic

where the minority is trying to tell everybody as what should go in the bills that they are voting against. >> yes, that, norm, is the interesting part. that has what has stymied everyone, including the speaker nomination. you seem to be deciding, all right, we have this influential small group of hard-liners on the right of the party, whom we will need to satisfy. but nothing actually seems to satisfy them. that's the problem, right? why not try and satisfy another group where you can get democratic support. but is mike johnson gog to be the guy who figure that out? when kevin mccarthy figured it out for a few minutes, it spelled the end of his speakership. >> of course, that's the great dilemma that we have, you can have responsible governance if you move to do something with a bipartisan jury. we had that with the spending levels that the house agreed to on the debt ceiling. what they are doing now, and what they have been doing since that point is trying to obviate

the levels they agreed to, so that they can get these deep spending cuts. and if we had a few courageous pragmatists pragmatists in the house, if we had a charlie dent, and we really don't, and they could go to either mike johnson or hakeem jeffries, and say, all right, let's work this out. but they are still trying to do it with her caucus alone, and as charlie said, and it's absolutely right, the lunatic lunatic fringes dominating this process. that's why we are very unlikely to avoid a shutdown. it may not come in a way. they may be able to punt for a little bit longer. but you have some hell-bent on bringing government down but and bringing chaos upon us. and until you get a speaker who is willing to step beyond that, you would hope that mike johnson has at least a little bit of leeway having come to this fairly new to the game. what he comes from that lunatic fringe of the party and that's

another part of the problem we have. >> guys, keep your phone charge next weekend and your renders on. i expect i'm gonna need to call you both. [laughter] good to see you both. norman ornstein, senior fellow at the american enterprise institute and the author of numerous books, including one nation after trump and the former republican congressman charlie dent of pennsylvania. now, i'm gonna get to talk to charlie next week. i'm gonna be with charlie this friday at the philadelphia sixth annual, ideas -- charlie is gonna join me on the panel about the come back of the big tent in the state of our political parties. if you are in philly on friday the 17, i invite you to join us. you can purchase tickets at the philadelphia citizen dot org. still ahead on velshi, the humanitarian crisis in gaza is getting worse with each passing hour. power outages, food shortages, and the region's largest hospital, near collapse. plus, more and more people are entering the 2024 presidential race. there's really just one place on the ballot, you are either for democracy or you are against it. we'll talk about it. this is velshi. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. >> earlier this morning, prime

minister benjamin netanyahu told nbc's kristen welker that a possible deal to release hostages abducted by hamas could be possible. >> how close are you to reaching a deal to get more of the hostages out? >> well, i can say that we are not close at all until we start the ground operation. in fact, we heard that there was an impending deal of this kind or that can, and then we learned that it was nothing. but as soon as we started the ground operation, things began to change. >> so, was there potential -- prime minister, is there a potential deal? >> there could be, but i think the last less i say about, the more i increase the chances admitting realize. >> biden administration official tells nbc news that one of the possible deals being discussed involves the release of about 80 women and children in exchange for the release of palestinian woman and teenagers being held by israel. but the official says the u.s. is exploring other options and

is not sure the deal will succeed. meanwhile, regional rivals, iran and saudi arabia, met to discuss the war in gaza yesterday. the iranian president, ibrahim raisi, and the saudi crown prince muhammad bin salman called for a cease-fire in gaza and unconditional delivery of humanitarian aid and international protection for palestinians. and as all of this plays out, tensions remain high in israel's northern border with lebanon. joining me now from beirut, lebanon is nbc's matt bradley. that, let's talk about this. these are real regional rivals, iran and saudi arabia are always at each other's throats. and saudi arabia was very close to a meaningful deal with israel before this war broke out. what's happening now? >> reporter: well, now we are hearing that, you know, there was actually some sort of rapprochement between saudi arabia and iran. now it looks as though that was back in the summer, that was negotiated by the chinese. we have seen a lot of change, it would look like, changes in

diplomacy. that has actually shifted around. but, you know, we've seen divisions in those two groups. now, the saudis did not want to come necessarily to fully condemn the israelis. and a lot of those other countries who were part of the abraham accords, you remember, that was started by the trump administration, and furthered by the biden administration. you know, those countries that had made deals with the israelis, diplomatic recognition, something that was a long time coming, generations of delays, before achieving that, those countries still, in those negotiations, in that big summit in saudi arabia, they still did not want to go ahead with fully condemning or withdrawing their recognition of israel. so, yes, there is universal appropriation throughout the muslim and arab world against the israelis and support for the palestinians. but we are still seeing a rupture along those very familiar lines, with iran on one side, all of its regional proxies and allies on the one side, and other countries, some of those golf countries

particularly. and then also, egypt and jordan with which have long-standing historic no agreement with the israelis, still reluctant to really step away from that. a lot of that is economics, the israelis have offered it carry told of these countries, that is tempting for them to take. and since the arab world still is not thriving phenomenally, even when you take out oil and petroleum and all those other products, there is still not doing as well as the rest of the world. those really offer an incentive for them to stay with negotiations, to stay with the israelis. and their argument is that they do better from negotiation, particularly hostage negotiations that you are discussing, if they maintain diplomatic missions with the jewish state. we are seeing a lot of movement, high-level diplomacy. but at the same time, you know, we are not seeing a big rupture. we're just seeing kind of a division that's playing out in conferences like we saw in saudi arabia. ali? >> matt, thank you for your depth of analysis and experience. thank you, as always, my friend. nbc news correspondent matt

bradley for us and they, would. in gonna continue to talk about the heartbreaking humanitarian crisis happening and gaza as the area's largest hospital is surrounded by intense bombardment and gunfire. a doctor, a medical director will join us right after this break. eak. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur.

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all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. >> gaza largest hospital is grappling with an escalating humanitarian crisis surrounding by what appears to be intense as we remembered meet and gunfire. israeli attacks have surrounded the hospital for over a day, leaving thousands of patients, medical staff, and sheltering civilians trapped inside. in an alarming development, the world health organization announced today that it had lost all communication with its contacts at the besieged hospital. the hospital was forts to suspend its services on saturday because of lack of fuel and the intense israeli bombardment, according to gaza health officials, three premature babies and five intensive care patients have died, according to the gaza health ministry. disturbing scenes from al-shifa, that's another gaza hospital,

circulating globally, amplifying calls for an immediate cease fire. the al-nasr children's hospital was forced to halt services on friday amid relentless israeli attacks, leading to the tragic death of at least one child that we know of, according to the palestinian health ministry. one surgeon with doctors without borders highlighted dilemma faced by hospital staff in an interview with israeli media, stressing that they cannot leave because many patients require surgery and are unable to walk. on saturday, doctors without borders reported that an individual who did attempt to flee the al-shifa hospital was shot at by surrounding israeli forces. the organization released an urgent plea to the israeli government saying, quote, we call on the israeli government to seize it is unrelenting attack, assault on gaza's health system. our staff and patients inside al-shifa hospital where the heavy bombing has not stopped since yesterday. a spokesperson for the israeli military said in a statement on saturday that there was, quote, ongoing intense fighting against hamas in the vicinity,

end quote, of al-shifa hospital, but could not answer questions related specific to military activity currently underway. now, in a later statement, another different israeli military official said that there was no shooting at the hospital and no siege. and doctors without borders insist their staff witnessed israeli forces firing upon people attempting to escape the hospital. meanwhile, nonprofit medical organizations in the united states are quickly mobilizing to raise funds and send critical supplies to gaza struggling hospitals. one of those medical organizations, met global, underscored the predicament after their doctors and patients trapped inside al-shifa hospital on saturday met global president, making a global plea, saying, quote, civilians and health care workers must be protected under international humanitarian law. our staff is risking their lives to protect their patients, continuing to serve despite the grief of losing their whole families and communities. the least the world can do is ensure they are safe evacuation,

end quote. well, for more on this escalating crisis, i'm joined by the medical director of med global, and international medical organization that supports vulnerable communities. she just returned from the egyptian side of the rafah border crossing last week. doctor, thank you for being with us. this is a uniquely difficult one for hospitals, or medical organizations like yours, who go into these parts of the world just to help the afflicted. and you are sort of finding yourself in arguments with government officials who say what you are saying, or what your doctors are seeing is not the truth. >> yeah, i mean, you know, to speak and be able to speak for our staff and health care workers that were advocating for as one of the most important responsibilities that we have right now. not only that, but also advocate for the safety of our patients. these are staff that we are in touch with on a daily basis.

we believe what they are telling us and we need the world to know that. and just yesterday, our staff, when we were able to contact them earlier in the day, we could hear the bombing in the background. we could hear the disruption in the background. and that is very real. that is a direct conversation that we are having with our staff. we believe that what is happening, we need that to be known to the world, and we need there to be a safe way to evacuate them. >> let's just discuss this because when you look at the images and you hear the competing statements that are put out there about what's happening, the end result is some sense of chaos. what can you tell us about what is surrounding these major hospitals, like al-shifa, where you've got people, like al-nasr hospitals, what's the problem, what's the issue right now? >> so, i mean, the main issue is that, you know, our staff and everybody at al-shifa hospital were told that when the spas happens, you can safely leave the hospital and exit to go towards the south of gaza. the concerning part that

happened yesterday was that, we had advised our staff, is if there is a safe window, then you should move to the south. however, in an attempt to do so, they witnessed five people getting shot on their way to exit the hospital. and they were not able to retweet the bodies, for injured people also shot on their way out, brought back to the hospital. they witnessed that they were unable to leave. that is the problem. that is what i'm focusing on and we as an organization are focusing on is that they witnessed, and realizing it's unsafe to leave and they are trapped. they're on top of which the patients that are suffering in al-shifa because of the resources not getting there is a whole other issue as well. so it's not just that the civilians and staff are not able to leave but they are not able to evacuate patients to a safe place and in a safe way. >> and then, there is this ongoing discussion because when we spoke to israeli authorities about this, their response is that these hospitals, these medical centers, they are staging areas or military operations.

and we have got doctors saying that's not the case. this is obviously a very difficult situation for organizations like yours, again, your mission is to treat people. but there is that back and forth going on. >> yes, you know, i am here to talk about the fact that we need to depoliticize human suffering, and advocate for the patients that are in need. i'm here to advocate for my health care colleagues that are not safe. that's the most that i can say because that's the truth that we are hearing, that they are unsafe, unable to perform their duties, and that's what we are here to talk about. >> how do you get the health care, and i don't mean you specifically, but how do we get the health care necessary to those people who are suffering in gaza? is there enough? are there enough supplies coming in with a bombing of hospitals? i know some neighboring governments are talking about setting up field hospitals and gaza. what, in your opinion, in your estimation, is the best way to continue to help more and more people who are getting injured every day? >> yeah, i mean, first of all,

let's talk about the supplies. as of yesterday, only about 53 trucks have made it across the border. that is a combination of medical supplies, water, and food. and on a daily basis, pre-escalation, there was almost 500 trucks, and that was outside of the massive amount of injuries that are being seen in hospitals. so, imagining that in those numbers, just to put it into context, there's not nearly enough medical supplies. and as we know, there isn't a safe corridor to get those supplies to where they are needed most, which is in some of the hospitals in the north of gaza and gaza city. so being unable to do that, you know, if you have supplies sitting at the border, and they're unable to get to where they're needed, then they might as will not be there because they're not able to be put into use. and that particular issue needs to be addressed. hospitals and the north are telling us that they run out of fuel and that patients are dying, as you mentioned, patients, and babies on incubators. and given that we've lost contact, i'm sure that there is more, between trauma injury and

chronic disease, diarrhea disease, respiratory infections that are now emerging from the conditions that people are living in, there is not nearly enough to support the people of gaza. >> doctor ahmed ahmed, thank you for the work that you and your organization are doing. doctor nahreeen ahmed, director at med global, a new gallup poll shows support for the party is a 63%. it's an interesting conversation. but why don't we have this conversation after the next election because in 2024 democracy itself is all on the ballot. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ rsv can be a dangerous virus [sneeze] for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold. and if you're 60 or older... you may be at increased risk of hospitalization from this highly contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels. talk to your pharmacist or doctor about getting vaccinated against rsv today. rsv vaccines, including pfizer's, are now available. ugh, i'll deal with this tomorrow. you won't.

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steven's best selling book, the perks of being a wildflower, has captivated readers and divided school district about teenage. live in a series of letters addressed only to a dear friend, 15 year old charlie describes how isolating high school can feel, how uplifting friendship can be, and just how world shattering it is to lose a friend to suicide. the perks of being a wildflower is a cultural touchstone, with enduring relevance, due to a boss case writing, his protagonist story, and the lessons that the book imports. it even came up during a meeting of the banned book club with bestselling author michael connolly. he explained in one word why the perks of being a wildflower is a crucial reading. >> empathy, one of the books that spent so often is perks of a wall flower. and i know from experience that

created -- when my daughter was a teenager. it was probably more important book than anything she was given to read in school. and now, finding what that did to her is not available to other kids in their teenage years. to me, that is a crime. >> next weekend, we will speak with the perks of being a wallflower author, stephen chbosky. this is a long time coming for the velshi banned book club. after you finish your copy, write to us, please, my story at velshi.com. let us know what you think and send us any questions for the author. all right, coming up, will he or won't he? now, senator joe manchin says he won't seek reelection, and everybody wants to know if he's planning a white house bid. spoiler alert -- if he runs, he will not win. we'll talk about what his candidacy might mean when democracy itself is on the line. ♪ ♪ ♪ to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started?

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the senate took a turn this

past week, after west virginia democrat joe manchin announced that he does not plan to seek another term in office. he was placing an uphill battle for reelection already. now, for months, top biden advisers reportedly tried to convince manchin to run again for a senate seat, telling him that while his path to reelection looked tough, he did in fact have a path. but beyond the senate, americans are still waiting to see whether the center democrat jumps into the presidential race, which manchin said he has not yet ruled out. there's been speculation for months that manchin could try to run for president, or vice president, as a third party candidates. and those rumors became even stronger after mentioned headlined the july town hall event for the centrist organization no labels, in the crucial early voting state of new hampshire. now, there are many reasons joe manchin will give as to why he's choosing to travel to country to, quote, bring americans together, rather than valuing -- let's not forget, democrat minority is razor-thin. but occam's razor tells us the simplest answer is the one

that's most likely. he just didn't see a path to victory in ruby red west virginia. instead, now he's embarking on a quest to quote, mobilize the middle, unquote, of the american electorate. those whom he says have been ignored by the two party system. when he meets them, he'll tell them about how he's not running for president, or that he's thinking about running for president, or that he might run for president. there are even more third-party sideshows this election cycle. earlier this morning, you remember robert f. kennedy junior announced that he's shifngis campaign, he's no longer gonna run as a democrat, he'sunng as an inpeent. recent polling finds he could make a sizeable dent in both trump and biden support in key battleground states. minnesota congressman and a lot of magnet dean phillips is challenging biden for the democratic nomination, but if you ask him, he is not running against biden, he's just running for the future, with a super pac and campaign stuff to boot. the progressive activist cornell west is staying strong with his run as an independent, jill stein, who you remember

from 2016, announced her candidacy earlier this week, under the green party. now, i happen to believe anyone should be able to run for whatever office they choose, as is their american rights. in some cases, responsibility. but we are living in perilous times right now. when it comes to this presidential race and this set of candidates, which are really voting for or about is democracy. and anything against donald trump, or give some better shot at winning the presidency, that will be a vote against. democracy joining me now is jennifer reuben, opinion writer at the washington post, host of the green room podcast and an msnbc political analyst, and rick wilson, the cofounder of the lincoln project and a former gop strategist himself. i have to say, rick, i love candidates. i like more parties. i think generally speaking, that's a good philosophy. this just as and feel like the moment for it right now. >> donald trump and the autocratic movement is emerging around him, listen to what he says on the record every day, and what he's people are telling you they'll do.

they have a gun to the head of american democracy, in this republic. if we elect donald trump again, we will not have the country we believe that exists today. we will not have an america withiberties, rights, and freedoms. we will have an autocratic system run by donald trump, and ekalaka fees weirdo all right guys that surround him like steve baited and stephen miller and the rest. everyone, as you correctly said, everyone else in this race, at the end of the day, that pulls a single vote away from joe biden, they're not just voting for trump, they're voting to end this country as we know. it >> jen reuben, you are on our air a lot, and you are such an expert on so many things. but you actually dig really deep into this issue, right? about how to make elections more fair, and how to make voting more fair. you think about this. you are sort of an advanced figure on this front. i would think that in general you also support the concept of more people running, and maybe another political party growing in time. do you agree that this is as rick says, a mighty perilous

time to be playing with fire? >> absolutely. first of all, none of these people have a rationale for running, other than i want to be president, or i want to have some attention. but no labels was actually forced to put out, and thought it was running about. it was just bland platitudes, docking issues like abortion, which americans care about deeply. so these are essentially been 80 projects. if any of them actually wanted to advance a specific agenda, they might have some legitimate reason for running. but as rick says, at this point, there is only one issue, and that is democracy. and granted, some of these people aren't gonna qualify for the ballot. because if you're not on a party ticket line, it takes a lot of energy, a lot of money, a lot of folks to get yourself on the ballot. so some of these people are not going to have to worry about it november. but justine, my gosh. didn't she and democrats and progressives learned their

lesson in 2000? al gore would've been president if not for joe stein. so, this is just a suicide for democracy, this is a kamikaze plunge into the abyss. and really, the people who encourage them are cynical, arm initiative, the all labels people are not centrist, they're self promoters, and the people behind them are frankly -- republican donors who want to help donald trump anyway they can. >> and yet, rick, what manchin is saying, he is mobilizing the middle. there is a weird appeal to that, right? if you think you are in the middle, and a lot of americans do and should be, and that's the side of a healthy democracy. but he's trying to say that there is a reason that he is doing this. jill stein, at some point, someone has to got to figure this out, right? that there is something up with jill stein. rfk junior, conspiracy theorist who's been denounced by everybody from his family, the most mainstream democrat. but manchin has got it is weird appeal that he's trying to make,

saying you are in the middle and i'm going to speak for you. >> joe manchin has a lot of image shaping for himself over the years. and his leverage the fact that he was a democrat in a very red state to become sort of a tie breaking vote over and over again. he's held the white house hostage repeatedly. look, there is nothing about joe manchin's philosophy or character in the record that shows it's about anything more than joe manchin. he is a guy who is consistently been considered one of the most venal, and frankly, on the verge of, or over the line of one of these transactional we publican figures that on paper, everyone should hate. the idea that this is a guy who lives on an extraordinarily expensive yacht in washington harbor, both scored with lobbyists 24 hours a day, is not exactly the appealing idea that americans think they can embrace. but i will say this, he is a guy who has shown over and over again that puts himself well

before the interests of the country. again, he's held joe biden hostage repeatedly on legislative matters. and folks in washington know joe manchin. he would be very low on the trust here for most people who know his record, his personality, and his character. >> standby, both of you. i'm gonna take a quick break and we're gonna continue this conversation on the other side. you are watching velshi. velshi. it's fineeeeeeee! [splash] before advil: advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action. (ella) fashion moves fast. (jen) so we partner with verizon acetaminophen blocks pain signals. to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (jen) that's enterprise intelligence. (vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms

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jennifer reuben, opinion writer at the washington post and political analyst rick wilson, former gop strategist. jen, for some of these right-wing -- fringe candidates, we're talking about taking votes away at the margin. but there is such deep dissatisfaction with politics in america today, is there a possibility that one of these candidates, and it's probably more a mansion character than anyone else, taps into that deep dissatisfaction, and ends up with double digit support? >> it's a unlikely. -- who was heavily funded, well-known, and national figure, got zero electoral votes. so the last time really a third party candidate in any way mate anyway in the race was in 1968, when george wallace won a bunch of the southern states. so the track record is not good, and, listen.

no one admits that it's a spoiler. now his plan is, get this. that he's going to throw the presidential race to the house of representatives. yes, those very same people who cannot pass -- and take 15 votes to elect their own speaker. what a nightmare that would be. but really, if we're looking at someone who we want to be a centrist, a deal maker, bipartisan, that's joe biden. he's the one who passed bipartisan infrastructure. he's the one who passed bipartisan shipped spell, he's the one who was passed a slew of popular measures. so the guy who's already in the race is pretty much a's centrist as we get in american politics these days. but i will say this. one thing that i think voters have to think about when they go into the voting booth, is if my vote was the decisive one in the election, in other words, the election came down to me, who do i really want to be president?

and when they think in those terms, when they really take their own vote seriously, i don't think they want to throw it away to one of these kooks and one of these characters. really, you're equally fine having either joe biden or president trump president? really? i think people really need to think about what they're doing. >> that's really important. if you don't think your vote is wasted, which you shouldn't. and i've seen that, rick, more than i have in past elections, or even in tuesday's election people were very proud to tell me that they've gone to vote in an off year election, for a local school official or a judicial nominee or something like that. no one ever told me the stuff in my life. but how do you, at the lincoln project, how do you motivate these kinds of people, who think that they're doing something? they're making a statement, by voting for a third party candidates or sticking out that ground by saying i'm tired of this nonsense, i'm gonna do something different? we >> are terrain in the lincoln project has already been to talk to a slice of

republican voters, a larger slice that it was in 2020, and its larger in 2016, who were just affected with the way that the party is behaving and the adoption of this authoritarian movement led by donald trump. this election cycle, though, we are seeing an expanded universe of people who are suddenly believing and understanding that these elections now aren't just about climate or guns, or abortion, or any single issue. but about a big portfolio of democracy, about individual liberty, about whether or not the state and the government is in the hands of people who believe that they should monitor and direct every aspect of their personal life. that is becoming, i think, especially among yoda voters, among independent voters, and a lot of these -- voters. they're going to recognize that it's nice to think about a kumbaya, let's get all new -- in the short term, there is the medium threat to the personal freedom, their personal liberties, the constitution, the rule of law, and the idea

in this country that every single individual has rights that should not be trampled by the u.s., by any u.s. government, much less an authoritarian movement led by donald trump. >> when the new york times polling came out, i was talking to you, and you said something about this feels like an outlier. it doesn't make complete sense to you, and that of course we saw the election on tuesday. which also doesn't sort of fit in with that particularly in a place like pennsylvania. but there's a lot of talk about polling and abortion, and culture wars, and who all these things work for. where are you a week later on this issue? because there's still a whole lot of people very worried about this battleground state. >> i think abortion is the key issue. it has been since dobbs, there are now has been a total of seven ballot measures, all of them have gone the way of pro-choice candidates. it is a pro-choice position, it is a motivating factor for democrats, for particularly

young voters who are hard to get to the polls, it is absolutely a critical issue. and if democrats lean into it, as they did in virginia, when you had state senate candidates, state assembly candidates, running ads on abortion, i've never seen anything like that. i lived in d.c., so i'm in their media market. it was shocking to me that a state senate candidate would be running on an issue like abortion. but that's how powerful it is. and i think republicans have gotten themselves into quite a fix deciding that they were going to tell women how to run their lives, how to control their bodies, and that i think is a critical issue for democrats. they should lean into it, and it goes to the issue rick was talking about. do you want a tyrannical government invading every decision you make, every aspect of your life? it's a very powerful issue for democrats, who can finally capture the freedom, the liberty issue, and for so long, republicans used to their advantage. well now it's a democratic

issue, and i think they should run on it nonstop. >> thanks to both of you. always a pleasure to talk to you and get your analysis. we appreciate it. jennifer reuben is an msnbc political analyst and the author of the book resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. rick wilson is a former republtratist, and author of running against the devil, a plot to save america from trump and democrats from themselves. that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch me back here next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am to noon eastern. don't forget, though she is always available as a podcast in which i wear a vest. you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. inside with is that -- jen psaki begins right. no >> the warning zients are flashing bright red about what exactly a second trump term would look like. >> four criminal indictments, for criminal trials barreling towards him. and now the former president is openly threatening to weaponize the justice department against his political opponents if he

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