problem is one of the things that's hanging us up. and i think my answer to your question is, thank goodness the u.s. supreme court does not have a humility problem. it absolutely -- that it can be the decider here, and i think that i agree with judge luttig, that if and when this comes to the u.s. supreme court, whatever it is that they used to triangulate how they're going to design this very novel constitutional question, is not going to be in, who me, how can i do this? it's too big for me. >> what do you make of the first part of the judges determination that donald trump is an insurrectionist? both looted and tribe thought that is important, is it relevant to any of the other stuff that donald trump faces? >> i don't know that it's necessarily relevant or it can't be admitted into evidence in any of the criminal cases that are ongoing around the country. but, it's sort of again speaks to the public perception. this is someone who has been

presented with evidence about what happened, and she came to the conclusion that he falls into the category of those who would be disqualified, but for the fact of the office that he seeks, or the office that he once held and the oath that he took. and so i think that's relevant. certainly, maybe not in a court of law, but in the court of public opinion, the idea that this looks like insurrection and he looks like an insurrectionist, i think is very relevant. >> thank you to both of you. i actually have a lot more to discuss with you, but this is the way things go these days. melissa murray is a law professor at nyu and an msnbc legal analyst. julia lithwick is the senior editor at slate, and author of the important book lady justice, women, the law, and the battle to save america. still to come, we continue our coverage of the breaking news and the fight over donald trump's eligibility to run for president again. just moments from now, i'll be joined by the colorado secretary of state, janet griswold, to get her take on the surprise reeling from a colorado judge finding that while donald trump did engage

in insurrection, he is still eligible for running for president. plus, washington post columnist david ignatius traveled with the idf alongside other journalists into gaza. he's back from that closely served -- to bear witness to what he saw with his own eyes. and the book manners or coming up to the librarians now. we'll talk about why that's so dangerous, in a special addition of the velshi banned book club. another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning. saturday, november 18th. i'm ali velshi, we begin this hour with breaking news in the battle over donald trump's eligibility to run for president next year. a colorado road -- appears to be a victory for donald trump. the judge declined to disqualify and remove trump from the 2024 presidential ballots, on the basis that trump engaged in insurrection. the question of trump's

eligibility to run for president again was vaulted back into the public discourse in august, when two of the most revered legal lines of our time, harvard's laurence tribe, and the judge david michael luttig declare that the constitution prohibits trump from ever being president again, based on section three of the amendment. since then, there's been movement in court in multiple states where efforts have sprung up to enforce that 14th amendment. and this ruling of colorado is particularly interesting, because the opinion goes further than any other judges have been willing to venture so far. the headline, out of colorado, will be that trump succeeded in remaining on the ballot. but a closer reading of the ruling reveals that this is far from a victory for the former president. the ruling reads in part quote, the court concludes that trump acted with the specific intent to incite political violence and directed at the capitol, with the purpose of disrupting the electoral certification. but then the ruling turns to the matter of section three of the 14th amendment. section three reads as follows,

you've heard me say this many times, so if you're there, you n say it with me. quote, no person shall be a tor or representative in congress, or elector of president and vice president, or hold any office, civil or military, under theited states, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath as a member of congress, or as an officer of the united states, or as a mb of any sleep legislature, or as an executive orderjudicial officer of any state, to ppt the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. and quote. sounds like donald trump did those things that he wasn't supposed to do if he wants to run for president again. but, this judge said that donald trump, despite having definitely engaged in insurrection, is exempt from this clause. now, you've got to be sitting down for this one. don't multitask. because to follow the judges logic requires an extremely close reading of 150 plus year

old text. in her opinion, the judge writes, quote, the court holds that the absence of the president from the list of positions to which the amendment applies combined with the fact that section three specifies that the disqualifying oath it is one to support the constitution, whereas the presidential oath is to preserve, protect and defend the constitution, it appears to the courts that for whatever reason, the drafters of section three did not intend to include a person who had only taken the presidential oath. and no other oath, to the constitution. now, as you may know, my legal education comes from law and order, but this strikes me as an incredibly narrow reading. by this logic, why would the president be allowed to engage in insurrection, if virtually every other federal employee who swears a slightly different oath, is not? could the rioters of the insurrection act really have

intended to hold lower level government officers to a higher level of integrity, then the person who holds the highest office in the land? and more immediately, can this possibly really be the end of the story in colorado? i'm joined now by a person who's very well positioned to answer that question. joining me now is janet griswold, the colorado secretary of state, with whom we discuss this issue back in august. secretary, good to see you. thank you always for making the time to be with us. you said to me that, which literally almost every secretary of state in the country to whom and veasey has spoken said, that you are likely not going to be the last voice on this thing. you can do what you may think you need to do, but this is definitely going to the courts. so that's what happens, in colorado. it went to the courts, and lots of people are surprised by what happened yesterday. are you? >> well, first, of thanks for having me on ali. always great to be on your show. and yes, this is a surprising ruling. i think you are really hitting

it on the head. the idea that any official who would engage in insurrection would be barred from taking office, except the presidency, is incredibly surprising. that basically means that the presidency is a get out of jail free card for insurrection. as someone who cares deeply about the state of our democracy, i find that very troubling. the american people need to know that the president, the person if anybody, the person most in charge of protecting the constitution, actually has a duty to do so. so, i'm right there with you. i find it very troubling that the president of the united states could engage in insurrection, and unlike everybody else, could then be president again. >> interestingly enough, and i've spoken to a number of jurists this morning who have sympathy for the difficulty that these judges have, right? nobody wants to be that one

who's going to change history in that fashion. judge luttig did make an interesting point this morning, he did say history was made in that ruling because of that part of the judge did articulate about what donald trump did. this judge has said donald trump was an insurrectionist. don't know if that has legal standing in the other cases he is charged in, but it is an interesting note. >> absolutely. i believe this is the first case in the nation to find that donald trump engaged in insurrection. that's a big deal, legally. but also, gosh, a court is saying that the front runner in the republican primary for president tried to steal the presidency from the american people. it just underlines what is at stake, coming up here next year. donald trump's attacks on democracy have not stopped. just in the last week, he called his political opponents

vermin, which dehumanizes them, making it easier to open up threats of violence. he posted a picture of the united states capitol in flames. this is someone who wants to lead the nation, showing all of our adversaries across the world, the united states capitol in flames. he is not fit to be president, regardless of whether he's on the ballot. >> what's your sense of your role going forward? because i believe that secretaries of state, we've all come to understand with jobs like yours are. they're not exactly the same in every state, where yours is one more elections are a major part of irresponsibility, which means you've been hearing from the public an awful lot and you will continue to hear from the public. what do you tell people who say we need you to fix this? >> what i say, and what my role is, is to follow the law and uphold the constitution. here in colorado, we have a law that allows voters to file a lawsuit over whether someone eligible to be on the ballot.

that's exactly what has been playing out. republican and unaffiliated voters believe that donald trump had disqualified himself, so they filed a lawsuit. now, the people who brought this initial lawsuit have indicated they are going to file an appeal. they have three days after the opinion to do so. so, it's very likely that this district court's decision is not the last stop in this case. if an appeal is filed, it will go to the colorado supreme court, who again, will be able to weigh in on whether donald trump has disqualified himself by engaging in insurrection, from appearing on the colorado ballots in the presidential primary. colorado>> secretary goes well,e always appreciate your time. thank you again for being with us this morning. >> absolutely. thank you for having me on. >> jennifer is colorado secretary of state and in the news a lot on this topic. joining me now is noah bookbinder, he's the president and ceo of citizens for

responsibility and ethics in washington. it's known as crew. crew bought the case on behalf of republicans and unaffiliated voters. noah, your take on what has happened this morning and the discussions we've had on it? >> so, a really important thing that came out of yesterday's ruling was that this judge, after hearing five days of testimony, reviewing mountains of evidence, something that had not happened in any other court in the united states, this judge found that donald trump incited insurrection. that is a finding that, as secretary griswold said, it is historic. it is entitled to a great deal of deference, because it is based on the evidence. it's based on the adversarial process. so that's incredibly significant. she also made this other legal ruling, which you've talked about, that the president essentially is not an officer of the united states. that is something --

that's a legal ruling, surely on the law. it's not based on that evidence. and because of that, when this goes up on appeal, as the tech jerry said, our clients, there is republican and unaffiliated voters, they're going to appeal it. that's something that the colorado supreme court is going to consider a fresh, and we've heard from experts like the folks you've had on, esteemed progressive legal finger, professor tribe. esteemed conservative legal thinker judge luttig, who think that this -- they disagree strongly with that legal finding. that's something that the colorado supreme court is going to consider a new, even donald trump's attorneys in his new york civil case have said that the president is an officer of the united states, so we think there's a real shot that that's going to get a very different look in the next round. >> donald trump's articulation of there being two systems of justice, he is subject to one, everyone else is subject to

another doesn't work in all instances. they've made the argument that he is that guy. he's numerous times, during his presidency, claimed he's that guy. he is in charge, he is the thing that's the oath says that he is. both laurence tribe and judge luttig were puzzled by the idea that the president swears an oath that says he's there to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the united states, federal employees swear an oath that say that they're there to support and defend the constitution of the united states. i'm not a lawyer, but lawyers we talked to say that they are not meaningful differences. >> we certainly think that's right. that's the argument that we are going to -- or really fantastic bipartisan team of lawyers is going to continue to make. and as you said, these leading liberal thinkers have not found that persuasive. so we do think enemy to donald trump's own attorneys will try

to have it both ways. i don't think that will continue to have it both ways going forward. but the part that really, really is historic, was this finding on the evidence after aggressive litigation from both sides that donald trump, as a matter of law, incited insurrection. i think that's going to play out really significantly across the country going forward. one of the things that luttig, judge luttig said, he said none of the things about why the insurrection, 14th amendment, don't apply to trump. by the scene seemed to hold water, when he didn't think it would hold water as it went higher in different courts. but judge luttig said he would give generally more weight to the judge is concerned that the office of precedent was not enumerated amongst the jobs, if you will, listed in section three of the 14th amendment. once again, i was pushing him on the, so i don't think he was really trying to make the case there is weight in that. but, the wording part of the

oath didn't hold weight with anyone. he said this one, at least, this worthy of a discussion. did the framers, or the people who wrote the insurrection act, mean to deliberately exclude the president? the logic, of, course is why would they? why would the president be excluded from this ruling in the constitution? >> yeah, i mean, look. the judge in this case was incredibly thorough, thoughtful, careful, we think she made tremendously powerful rulings on a number of issues, not just donald trump's incitement of insurrection, but the fact that the first amendment didn't get him out of this. the fact that the secretary of state has the authority to remove someone from the ballot, following a court finding. so, we think that this judge took this very seriously. we don't agree with her conclusion on that one point, i know that judge luttig and other conservatives, like professor stout impulse, and also don't agree. so, that is something we are

going to, we're going to take out on the next level. it seems curious at best that this idea, that donald trump as a president, who had never held office before,, so haven't taken the other oath, it's kind of the only person out there who would be exempt from this. it's something a court is going to have to examine and see if that really holds water. >> noah, thanks again for keeping us posted of this. novak miners the president ceo of citizens of respect for responsibility and ethics in washington. on this hour of velshi, let's talk about mental acuity in the 2024 presidential race, and how old is too old to run for the highest office in the land? see if you can guess which candidate has that difficulty in recent days, with things like correctly numbering that world wars, distinguishing between the presidents of turkey and hungary, the geographic location of russia, and remembering who is currently president of the united states. the answer is coming up. plus, you may not like a book, you may not want your child to

read a, book and you may have good reason for both of those things, but that doesn't mean you can remove access for everyone else's kids, to. literature has gotten to be accessible to everyone, all the time. period. do not miss today's special meeting of the velshi banned book club. ed book club. is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union. will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63

a day, will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for free speech, liberty and justice. your support is more urgently needed than ever. reproductive rights are on the line and we are looking at going backwards. we have got to be here. we've got to be strong to protect those rights. so please join the aclu now. call or go to my aclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt member card magazine and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for everyone to have a voice and equal justice. and we will never stop because we the people,

means all of us. so please call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. my little family is me, aria, and jade. just the three of us girls. i never thought twice about feeding her kibble. but about two years ago, i realized she was overweight. she was always out of breath. that's when i decided to introduce the farmer's dog to her diet. it's just so fresh that she literally gets bubbles in her mouth. now she's a lot more active, she's able to join us on our adventures. and we're all able to do things as a family. ♪ get started at betterforthem.com it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it!

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the focus of the presidential race shifted from the primaries to the general election, then president donald trump uttered five unforgettable words he offered up as a reason why he would be a better leader than joe biden. >> well, i every person, woman, man, camera, tv. so, they say, could you repeat that? so, i, said yeah. so, it's person, woman, man, camera, tv. okay, that's really good. >> person, woman, man, camera,

tv. had to look. trump claimed being able to remember those five words was an example of a cognitive test he had just taken. he said doctors were amazed he could recall words and recite and back, proof, he said, he was quote, cognitive lee there. three and a half years later, trump remains obsessed with proving he is more mentally fit than president biden, ahead of a possible rematch in next year's election. but it's donald trump questioned saying more bizarre and confusing things recently, that should give all people, including all persons, women, men, those on camera, and those who watch tv, pause. especially as his super weird rhetoric for years and more dangerous territory. and one right-wing conference, he insulted president biden's cognitive abilities while, in the same breath, warning biden would lead us into world war ii! comey crazy. but i think world war ii already happened. trump is also appeared to mix of biden, a self-described old white guy, with former president black obama, and

subscribe skinny black eye with big years, at least seven times during a few different republican appearances by forbes's account. that includes an instance from his recently as last saturday, when trump is clearly referring to the sitting president, but said obama's name instead. trump seems to be having trouble keeping his world leaders straight in general. at a rally in new hampshire on october 23rd, he showered praise on hungary's authoritarian prime minister, viktor orban, and referred to as quote, the leader of turkey. maybe that's because viktor orban is way easier to say than recep tayyip erdogan, who is actually the leader of turkey. and another campaign, stop six days later, trump, this, time correctly identified orban as the leader of hungary, but then incorrectly said that it bordered russia. that's hungary. that's russia. here's ukraine in the middle. more than 500 miles away from hungary's eastern fronts here. in fact, we sometimes use that border to get into ukraine,

which is a whole big country away from russia. that plunder happened in sioux city, iowa, which should -- name sioux falls, which is a city in south dakota, before someone finally came up on the stage and directed him. his campaign chalk that up to an error on the teleprompter, and i'll give them that. then, there was this at a rally in cedar rapids, iowa, this month. >> has anybody seen silence of the lambs? hannibal lecter, how great an actor was he? you know why i like him? because he said on television, or one of the, i'm donald, trump so i love him. i love him. i >> hannibal lecter said that? it does seem that trump got mixed up about the actor who played the cannibal in the 1991 film, but who really knows? because anthony hopkins never actually publicly supported trump. neither did mads mikkelsen or brian fox, the other actors who portrayed hannibal lecter in the past. in fact, talks on record calling donald trump a quote, effing a hole and the quote, so

full of rhymes with spit. it's easy to dismiss the wide gaps in trump's logic and his many head-scratching mistakes, because of what we've come to expect from him. but even though he can't seem to keep a lot of things straight lately, he has this remarkable ability to echo white nationalist, racist rhetoric with pinpoint accuracy. this happened during a speech on veterans day. >> we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, marxists, fascists, and the radical left slugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. >> like vermin. trump's use of dehumanizing language is nothing new, but critics and scholars were very quick to point out that vermin is a specific and particularly loaded term with an ugly history. it's a word that was used in a similar context by dictators like adolf hitler, who said in 1934, quote, if i could send the flowers of determination into hell, of war, without the

smallest pity, surely, i have the right to remove millions of an inferior race that breeds like vermin. hitler, in this instance, was referring to the jewish people as part of his campaign against them, which essentially paved the way for the holocaust. disturbingly, the comparisons with hitler don't and there. during an interview with a right-wing website last month, trump said that undocumented immigrants were, quote poisoning the blood of the country. it's an idea that is lifted straight out of hitler's book, mein kampf. as the fact-checking website snow spring to that, what it looks manifesto included multiple passages that made similar references about how the jewish people were poisoning the bloodstream of germany. for example, in chapter, for hitler wrote, quote, it seemed as if some all pervasive, i'll pervading poisoned fluid has been ejected by some mysterious hands into the bloodstream of this once heroic body. it would be foolish for anyone to give donald trump the benefit of the doubt, to allow

him to give the excuse of ignorance at this point in his political career. not after he stood up for the racists antisemites who terrorized to charlottesville in 2017, and not after he died of the white nationalists and holocaust an ironic for when this, and the rapper formerly known as kanye west last year. there are people out there who are watching donald trump's actions and listening to the kind of dangerous rhetoric he spews, like david the pap, who was convicted this week for violently assaulting nancy pelosi's husband, paul pelosi. he testified in court he was radicalized by conspiracy theories that he found on right-wing media. and here's what donald trump had to say about the paul pelosi attack earlier this week. >> i you now, we had no carrot during my administration the only terror we had was nancy pelosi, who's the greatest lunatic. she's a lunatic. she is a crazed lunatic, what's the -- what's going on with her husband? let's not ask. let's not ask.

i'll withdraw that statement. by the way, she's got a wall around her house. obviously, in that, case it didn't work very well. >> he's mocking and attempted killing, of nancy pelosi's husband. what's more chilling than trump's words as the crowd that, the enraptured crowd cheering him on. donald trump is shameless. he's driven purely by his own self preservation, and if we do not heed the warnings of history, he is going to continue to drag this entire country down with him. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything! ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. >> the humanitarian crisis in gaza continues to worsen. more than 12,000 people, 4000 of them at least children, have died in gaza since the war started 43 days. ago according to gaza's government administered media office. israel and the united states announced friday that more fuel trucks will be allowed to enter gaza for humanitarian needs, but crucial surfaces are collapsing all over the gaza strip. and with frequent internet and communications blackouts,

eyewitness accounts and valuable information are diminishing. any firsthand account is desperately important for understanding this or any other conflict. washington post foreign affairs columnist, david ignatius, traveled with the idf alongside three other journalists to observe the quote, humanitarian corridor that israel established to allow many palestinians to escape the bombings in northern gaza. the israeli military did not let david speak to any of the displaced. they kept the journalists in an israeli bunker, staffed with soldiers with firearms. dave it was able to observe the corridor for about half an hour. here is what he saw. quote, the line of desperate palestinian civilians stretch for hundreds of yards along salah al-deen road on sunday, as they moved away from the shattering violence towards what they must hope will be a safer place in southern gaza. it was dead quiet as the line stopped and started. the occasional sound was shell fire in the distance. every 50 feet or so, you could see someone with a white flag, people trudged forward with sacks containing whatever they

could carry from their homes. i counted five wheelchairs. i saw one bed on wheels, bearing someone to young or infirm to walk in. and quote. dave ignatius joins us now. he's a award-winning foreign affairs columnist for the washington post, covering the middle east and the cia for nearly four decades. he was also able to ignore observe the corridor of palestinians escaping with his own eyes, just days ago. david, thank you for being with us. i'm glad you were there. you did operate as many western journalists must now to get access to gaza, under restrictions from the israeli military, but did you get a sense that, did you get a sense of something you were able to see, despite the fact that you are operating, you don't have free movement around gaza. >> i did not have free movement, and i should make clear, i was there asked and it's really vet. but, i saw what i saw with my own eyes, and we briefly summarize that for you here. i saw enormous destruction. we went to the southern edge of

gaza city, as far as i could see, i couldn't see a building that hadn't been damaged or destroyed by a bombing or shell fire in the campaign that led up to my visit, sunday, a week ago. five weeks into the conflict. i saw palestinians with those white flags, trying to escape the violence that has been so devastating. we've seen images from our greatest reporting colleagues, who are in gaza, who are allowed to report as we can't. so, we have a sense of that. but with my eyes, i could see these people, as i've said, trudging towards the south, towards what they hope will be more security. israelis said their soldiers were there to protect the people who wanted to escape from any efforts by hamas to prevent that escape. there have been reports hamas has tried to prevent some of them from leaving. that was the argument they

made. there was certainly no time by the israelis to stop the palestinians after we left, we were told that in that sector, there had been a murder attack by hamas. we can't confirm that, can't really say more. i think the final thing i would say, ali, is you see in the vast devastation of gaza, every place i went on the way to gaza city and in gaza city, has been bombed, shelled, affected by the war. you see that this area has been devastated in a way that will take years to repair. there's an immediate humanitarian crisis. every one of those palestinian faces i saw somebody who has been suffering, maybe suffering malnutrition. they had medical problems. it's going to need help urgently. and the places that they live, you can only imagine, is there anything left of them? will they be able to go back?

how will this be rebuilt? i try to think always in our reporting about what's ahead, and for, me the way ahead in gaza, after this war is over, is this difficult, it's going to be a great struggle, but everybody who cares about the palestinians suffering should take part in. >> >> and that's why we booked you, and that's why i'm so glad your. there i have ethical and moral issues with the conditions under which some of our reporters have to go into gaza. on the other hand, you've got to see it with your own eyes, and you got to think about what israelis are coming to talk about as the day after. there is a resolute unwillingness on the part of the current israeli government under netanyahu to discuss. that he has only gotten as far as to say the palestinian authority is not going to be the negotiating partner, which is supposition netanyahu has held for many, many years. by the way, they're probably a lot of palestinians who don't want the palestinian authority to negotiate on their behalf anyway. that said, david, at some point,

minds like yours are going to be spilling ink on what happens next. do you have some thought about that at this point? what happens next? who rebuild gaza? who could be trusted by a population that, far more than half of the people have been displaced, and netanyahu says will be israeli security forces in there it definitely, that sounds a bit like a [interpreter] for longevity. >> so, ali, i thought a lot about it since the first days of the war. i've been writing about the day after, i think it is an urgent issue. you shouldn't enter of war without thinking about, as as david petraeus famously asked in iraq, tell me how this ends. tell me what's ahead? there are israelis in the israeli defense forces, other parts of the government, who are trying to think about what structure for governing will be in gaza in the future, that will be stable.

i think the israelis understand they have real humanitarian crisis that is, you know, making it very difficult and the information war that is going on, quite apart from the war. so, there is thinking and discussion. but i don't see anything like a consensus yet within this government or even really, with the intense focus there in the middle of the ground phase of their combat. i do think support for the united states in particular to encourage and lead the discussion of how the world helps rebuild the lives of the palestinians in gaza, especially the -- bank to, i for many years relief palestinian state, a two state solution, is the way to security for both peoples. i feel that as much now, having seen this latest episode of war on the ground. as i ever did. but i think it's america that's going to have to lead the way for israelis and palestinians

both. there's so much trauma now, they need help from their friends, starting with people in the united states who can think, what is the day after look? like how do we help people build trust? how do we rebuild schools, institutions, governance? i don't think hamas has been a good political leader for gaza, i have to be honest. i don't think hamas is going to govern gosset in the future. i hope the people will really focus on what's going to work, what's going to be good, what's going to make a new life there after this terrible, terrible destruction. >> david, you're always so thoughtful and nuance about conversations in which it is hard to bring the wants. i appreciate the time, i appreciate the time you talk to, to go there, and to join us this morning. i encourage my readers, i viewers to read the things that you have been writing. david ignatius, foreign affairs columnist at the washington post, straight ahead is today's meeting of the velshi banned book club. instead of featuring one beautiful, poignant book today, we're looking at all the books nobody really wants to read. the books that are hard toe top,

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banned book club nearly two years ago and made a vow to defend all literature. admittedly we have fallen into a pattern that select books that are beautifully written, culturally important, and emotionally demanding. books that we, well, like! when this book banning epidemic is behind us and is just a dark

blight on our nations past those books will remain. they are enduring, there will always be a place for shakespeare, the handmaid's tale, tony morrison. it's the books that no one is willing to fight for nor want to read that could fall through the cracks, never to be considered dan. it's not that those books are important, they are actually necessary. they are the bricks they create a formidable culture. we as a society have set a dangerous precedent. worldview, misreading taste, those are enough to dictate what litter is accessible to our children and what litters castaway uncensored. the outcome of that will be a generation of children shaped by one worldview, one reading, one specific palette. that is not america and that is not freedom. today's meeting of the velshi book club will not focus on anything a book or single author. rather, on the books that i don't like and that i don't want to read. the books that are the most vulnerable because no one really wants to defend them. the area that nevertheless is important to our understanding

of the world. right after the break i'll be joined by a person who has ero making all kinds of literature accessible to anyone interesting in reading. emily verb in ski is the president of the american library association. don't go anywhere. n't go anywhere.

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of the american elaborate situation. now, also, a member of the velshi banned book club of. emily, welcome. thank you for being with. us >> so excited to be here. thank you for the invitation. >> you and i had a chat about this. i want to go deeper on it. the idea of literature -- look, there are a lot of things that are lying to lead. i'm not a librarian, it doesn't matter to me. you are. you may have to offer people the availability of things you don't personally like. i wanna go beyond that. i want to talk about truly objectionable stuff. there is stuff that has been written by bad people, people who have been bad for the world, vowing to study or learn about it, right essays or pay fees, city and university and do a doctoral thesis, i might have to get access to some of the stuff. that's not about protecting bad ideas or bad people, it is about learning about the world in its history. >> absolutely. libraries, as you know, are committed to having something in the question for everyone. that is an absolute priority. what intellectual freedom means for us as we have something for everyone. most fundamental is everyone's

sovereignty over their own minds. we'll have a right to read something, whatever it is, that we find of interest. absolutely right that we absolutely need to keep a record of the history of the country and the history of ideas. it is important to maintain those and our academic library do the. it is part of our mission, and maintaining records of everything that is been published in all the ideas that have come before us. >> one of the points that you made to me is, look, we don't live in a society where everyone takes librarians a seriously as they should. some people don't think they are under the threat that they are under. but you are all very well trained on this. it's not an accident where you can roll in and look at a car catalog and tell you where people -- there is a lot that goes into curating a library. >> absolutely. i think a lot about the role that we have as librarians. curating collections for a public. that is the fundamental difference between me talking books and someone who's not elaborating collecting books. i'm always thinking about

everyone that the library serves. if i was gonna build a collection for myself for example it would have no science fiction in. i don't like sci-fi. the books are too long. if it happens in outer space where there's a robot then i find it boring. if i was gonna build a collection just based on what i care about those books wouldn't be in the collection. it is a silly example but when we think about what normal people do, we collect on the basis of what we care about and what we like. as librarians we are professionally trained, we have masters degrees, we have a rich professional infrastructure, the american library so she asian convenes us, constantly, to talk about best practices when it comes to collecting. boats we have peer reviewed materials. the election decisions we make our fundamentally professional decisions. just the way i don't cut my own hair, if i do, it's a mistake. i don't try to plumb my own house to managers to be, we shouldn't have people who are librarians making decisions about what goes and library collections. >> when you and i were onstage some weeks ago at a wonderful piece like event i made the point that when i get a author

on the velshi banned book club they sometimes almost immediately see a spike in book sales. some of that is my viewers, who will buy the book. including. me on by everything a book when we have an author. you made a really interesting point. i thought it was such a big deal. you said, none of that helps who the kid who can't get that book in the school or the kid who can get that book an elaborate. tell me more about that. >> absolutely. i can also buy books that i want to read. that is a real privilege. anyone who works in a public library or school library will tell you, there are huge swaths of our population who do not have access to our reading materials except for those they can find in the library. even though there are spikes in the books on your show, there are lots and books not featured on your show. the american library association in the first eight months of the year counted 695 individual challenges. more than 1900 books were included in those tallies. those 1900 books, how many books have you had initial? a handful. for the rest of those authors their books are not appearing

elaborate collections. they are not available to members of the public, or students. the idea that it somehow boost sales, i think, is a misnomer. it certainly does not impact access for those most vulnerable among us. >> you also made an interesting point about picture books and how expensive they are. for many parents, not just parents but anyone who wants picture books, it's not the kind of thing that most people can afford to. by books are really expensive these days. there in fact graphic novels and picture books that are subject to banning or censorship in america, which means some of those people are not gonna get access to those at all. >> pm. i have a kid. when he was little and read a whole lot of picture books not only was i'm not going to purchase 30 picture books that week, which is what we would take up from the lab collection, kids are fickle, right? he read the book once he doesn't want it anymore. anyone who has a kid will tell you that purchasing a book to the mean is going to get fully used in the way that you

intended to. the library makes it possible for every family to have access to reading materials. we know that access to reading is important for early childhood literacy. it's important to lifelong learning. we want people reading as soon as early as possible in their lives. the library is what makes that possible. >> we are seeing funding for public library slashed across the nation. this is low-hanging fruits, right? the houston school district have done. in new york city branches in brooklyn, in queens, no longer open seven days a week. i asked you this last time i saw you, how can you support your public libraries in the face of this onslaught? >> the it is really important to remember that there is more than one way to ban a book. you can remove it from the shelf but you can also banned a book by making it impossible to access when people have the time to go to a library. cutting sunday services just devastating for families. it is devastating for working people. we need everyone to be on board and everybody to show up for your local public library. show up for your school lab. ratio for the academic library.

the first thing i tell people is to use. a public institutions, you gotta use them or lose them. if you have a library card, check with their friends to see if they have a lab record. make sure everyone you know has a library card. uses elaborated checkup books and attend programs and all the incredible things elaborate have to offer. we also encourage everyone to sign up a united dense books bands dot org. this is the american library so she asians public facing campaign to fight back against book bans. you will find on that website all different kinds of things that you can do. all things from running to a letter to the editor to running for your library board. we really need people to care about libraries to be running for their library boards and part of the government structure it looked library. >> this is the -- something everyone watching can do. emily, so great to talk to you. thank you for being with us. emily drabinski president of the american members ocean. in the weeks ahead we have to velshi banned book club features and a free. the perks of being a wall

flower in the bell jar by the late sylvie platt. in decades apart in two very different americas both books grapple with mental health, isolation, and belonging. both have become rights of passage for young adults america and classics in their own. right send us your comments and reactions on the books you want to read next at my story at velshi.com. let us keep reading as resistance. that of it for me. thank you for watching. stay right where you are, alex when reports starts right after a quick break. a quick break. and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups. and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems.

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