from the company with the largest fastest reliable network and that powers more businesses than anyone else. learn how you can get $1000 back for your business today. >> that's it for today. comcast business. powering possibilities. thank you so much for spending time with us. i'm paola ramos, in for alicia menendez. american voices is back tomorrow at six pm, eastern. good evening to you and welcome to ayman tonight. breaking developments in the gag orders on donald trump.

the new vicious attacks coming just hours after one of the orders was passed. trump is laying the groundwork for an even more extreme second term if he wins in 2024. how republicans are trying to circumvent democratic institutions to get the results they want. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. donald trump attacks his perceived political enemies almost nonstop. cal enemies it has become to routine and breaking just a short time ago he attacked the judge overseeing his civil fraud trial, new york attorney general of the tisha james and the law clerk on the case, smearing her by name and a deranged social media post. there was reasonable cause for alarm when a new york appeals court caused the gag order that

had barred trump and his lawyers from speaking publicly about court staff in the case. just hours after the ruling, trump began attacking judge arthur engoron's law clerk again calling her a, quote, trump hater. he also said that letitia james is a partisan attack dog and operative. these are part of a much broader escalation of these attacks on perceived political enemies. it follows his fraud to target groups he characterized as berman in america, a threat president biden slammed. this prompted the washington post to describe this language as echoing dictators hitler and mussolini. a trump campaign spokesperson called that a ridiculous assertion from snowflakes whose entire existence will be crushed when president trump returns to the white house. also this week trump reposted a social media comment suggesting

that letitia james and judge engoron should be put under citizen's arrest. this all happened, as i said, just in the last week. it's important to note here as we have seen way too often that there is an established pattern of action taken by trump's followers when he targets his perceived enemies. in the two days after he posted if you go after me i'm coming after you in august, a man from alabama and a woman in texas sent disturbing and violent threats to the fulton county district attorney and her office. donald trump knows his supporters listen to him. he does not stop. on monday, a federal appeals court will hear oral arguments on the gag order that was placed on trump in the federal election interference case. that gag order also has been paused while the appeal is being considered. special counsel jack smith's team argued that his attacks in

the case were part of a pattern stretching back years in which people publicly targeted by the defendant are as a relt of the targeting subject to harassment, threats, and intimidation. they argue that he is implicitly but unmistakably encouraging his supporters to act against the people he targets. he will not stop on his own so the courts have an obligation's. this mountain of evidence before them should actually make him stop. joining me are christina greer and david henderson. it's great to have you with us. michael, i will start with you. it is not surprising that trump has gone after judge engoron or his law clerk. i think anyone in this country

would not have bet against him doing it yet again. talk to us about this danger. given how we can see trump supporters reacted to this before. >> it's enormously dangerous. i am shocked that we have allowed this to get this far. i will use my best analysis that i can give you at this point for this situation with trump and his attacks on the judges. put his in jail. that's how it stops. people will be mad and upset, but there is no other person on this planet, certainly not in this country who would be given the kind of grace that donald trump has been given to run his mouth the way he has, attacking the clerks, attacking the judges, attacking the prosecutors personally, threatening them. we have seen the evidence when he does that how his base response. the system is getting pulverized from within by trump and is being pressed to the

umpteenth corner it can go in trying to appease him and allow him to be free while he is still behaving this way. if he wants to continue in this vein, then use the system the way the system would be used against all of us on this show right now because you know dam well that if any of us said half of what donald trump has said we would not be on air tonight. we would be in a jail cell. >> people have been in a jail cell for a lot less, i would argue. i was saying, people have been in jail for a lot less in terms of violating gag orders and such. david, speak to the point that michael raised their that he should be put in jail because of all of the violations. yet somehow there are two parts of this. there is the constant attempt as a legal strategy to

challenge everything that comes out of the court and delay, delay, delay. we are seeing this will take time to play out. at the same time, the real-life danger that is being posed to these officers of the court. >> i will repeat something at 20 before. at the end of the day he is calling their bluff because he knows they won't do it. that's why he keeps engaging in this behavior. it's an understatement to say that if anyone threatened a judge or a member of the church's staff, they are leaving the court in handcuffs. i've seen people get locked up for far less than this. this is what it becomes when you don't do that. legal decisions when you are actually in a trial rest between law and common sense. sometimes it feels like they never meet. this is the legal equivalent of chernobyl. you have somebody on the ground making decisions that are being second-guessed by people that are not directly exposed to the problem. as a result you will have an explosion in the aftermath will be just as bad, if not worse

than the explosion itself. you have judges instituting gag orders. they are not only thinking about the first amendment, they are also saying i am in the courtroom. i see the looks. i see the exchanges at the bench. i see the way people are behaving in the hallway and i am telling you this situation is going to explode. then you have appellate courts stopping the gag orders because they say, from an academic point of view maybe you should have a right to say some of these things. that brings us back to this first situation where you are doing things like endorsing citizens arrest that is not just complaining about your circumstances. you are inciting people to take action that will lead to violence when there is an established pattern of having seen it happen before. we have a responsibility to not let this get further out of hand. at this point we are as much of the problem as he is. >> we are a society that has become complacent to this. that is the dangerous part because nobody has stopped him before despite the documented

history of his supporters taking action when he speaks. we have seen it time and time again and yet nothing changes. >> ayman, we have to remember. donald trump is not new to the courtroom. he has been in and out of courts for decades now. he has been lying, cheating, stealing, encrypting across new york and now it has gone national. we need to expand the point. it's not just about speaking out of turn against the prosecutorial judges and clerks, it also the attorney general. the racist and sexist comments and the call to action is a call to arms. we have seen donald trump insight his supporters. he wants this. he wants to be televised. he wants to be sure that in the court of public opinion he is seen as the hero and the victim simultaneously. as we have said, the horse has left the barn. it is so far away from us at

this point because donald trump is now controlling the narrative. he knows that he probably won't be put in jail for contempt of court so he just keeps pushing the envelope. he has done it with policy and conduct and norms when he was in the office. now that he is no longer in office, he is doing the same thing and courts all across the country. i don't know how to put this genie back in the bottle, but i don't know how we retract what donald trump has pushed us into. all that he has excavated. all of the negative vitriolic, racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-immigrants, anti-muslim sentiment from the last fears. in some ways we have become numb or immune to it. we cannot if we expect this democratic republic to succeed in any way, shape, or form. >> to the point of not just the threats to the officers of the court, but jack smith's team on

making the argument for re- imposing the gag order, there is a call that this actually amounts to witness intimidation. it's not just a gag order for the safety of the people. it is actually an assault on the judicial process on the country. a witness in his trial will feel intimidated by what donald trump is saying and that could impact whether or not the wheels of justice actually spin as they are supposed to down the road. >> absolutely. what you are seeing is a trifecta of moves all simultaneously. one, the first order is the attack on the judge and the clerks. the second is the attack on the prosecutors and those that are bringing him to court. those that are bringing the charges against him. third, everyone else. everyone else involves a pool

of people who would be called and brought into a courtroom to serve as jurors and also the witnesses that may be participating. more to the jurors, more to finding that one person who in all the cases would say he's innocent. that would throw the whole thing out. donald trump has been from the very beginning, i love this idea of his trying to be both the hero as well as the victim. that is what he is trying to do . he is trying to use the system against itself. by the time you get into that jury room, you will have that one person who is so -bent on freeing donald trump like freeing willie, right? you wind up with these mistrials and again he will be the one that will be saying, i told you so. it is i told you so based on

all the crap he is doing right now. if the system does not clampdown on it, the backend of this looks incredibly ugly. >> i cannot let you invoke free willie. that whale does not deserve to be compared to donald trump in any of these situations. >> a whale is a whale. >> i have to ask david, from another point we heard earlier this week judge engoron rejecting the attempt by trump's team to seek a mistrial. that had me wondering a little bit because the judge, i should say that they were arguing that the judge and his clerk are biased against team trump. is that part of the strategy here? not if i can assault this judge verbally and get under his skin and provoke them to do or say something irrational, i can then use that in my appeal to say, look how he is talking to

me. look how he is insulting me. the cow he is voting against me that this trial is not being dismissed. >> ayman, i'm inclined to say yes but i won't say i think he's that intentional at the way he goes about this. the reason i say this is, i was a special crimes prosecutor. i don't with a lot of people that committed acts of domestic violence, sexual assault, i have seen how people will bully and intimidate and behave. they are not always necessarily thinking about what they are doing, but with that in mind goading the judge in the circumstances were not only is the judge taking actions that are intended to keep people safe. you are dealing with someone that is going down the hallway, talking about you and the people that work with you. you are taking steps to keep people safe and then you are getting second-guessed by a higher court.

who may in fact overturn the gag order. everybody has a point at which they could break. i could see that being a part of what somebody could have in the back of their minds. if the judge snaps and says something maybe that will give us leeway for an additional problem that could come up the works. >> that is the fear that he can point to it and say the judge is biased against me. i'm also not sure that donald trump is that smart. may be maniacal, but not that smart. david henderson, great to see you. michael and christina, please stick around. we have new reporting about how donald trump and his allies are preparing for an even more radical and dangerous second term. nd term. (dad) no way they'd take this wreck. (carolers) ♪ yes, they will, in any condition. ♪ ♪ get iphone 15 pro and ipad and apple watch - all on them! ♪ (mom) please forgive him. (carolers) ♪ it's all good - just a little awkward. ♪ (soloist) think we'll wrap this up.

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with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. axios is out with a new report pulling back the curtain on plans for the next

administration if trump should win. they want to prescreen ideologies of thousands of potential foot soldiers. they want to rip off the restraints and help trump carry out his radical second term agenda. it is an agenda that has come more into focus over the last few weeks thanks in part to several bombshell reports from the new york times. there is just something of what we could expect. the disgraced ex-president wants to use the justice department to carry out revenge missions using the power of the federal government to take vengeance on political adversaries. he also plans to carry out an extreme immigration crackdown including sprawling camps to hold undocumented detainees. to accomplish these goals they are looking to purge career civil servants from the government and replace them with trump loyalists. they also want to install more aggressive i ideologically aligned gatekeepers for the

government that will carry out his plans with no questions asked. a second trump presidency truly runs the risk of ending to -- american democracy as we know it. that is not hyperbolic. let's bring michael steele and christina greer back. we also have an expert on authoritarianism joining us. ruth, let me start with this axios report. this trump ally machine that is beginning to spin has the most power over the formation of a potential future government of any group in u.s. history. put this report into perspective for us. is this from the ex-president and his allies? is it as an unprecedented as it seems on the surface given that our country has not had a president that has lost them and come back to win reelection. >> you know, trump is an autocrat. what he is doing here is

straight out of the history of authoritarianism. it is not just the content of what he wants to do, the mass deportations and detentions when you get into it he says he wants to expand psychiatric institutions to put people in there. that is what authoritarians have always done. you mentioned jack smith. that is exactly what authoritarians do. the communist's in the ussr would routinely put dissidents and psychiatric institutions. it's not just that, it's the method. autocrats need a compliant bureaucracy to implement their oppression quickly. they need corrupt people that will not have pangs of conscience. that is what happened the first time. he has learned from that with too many civil servants that had ethics and too many lawyers.

this time he is not making that mistake. it is like seeing a chapter of my book come to life. i wrote about this that you must have lawless and corrupt people in government in order to have an autocracy. >> you bring up an interesting point. tell me there is a false perception in our society that we have such strong democratic institutions and such strong guardrails that democracy has arrived for 250+ years that it can't simply be undone in the span of four years by one man and his cohorts. the truth is, our institutions are vulnerable. they can be co-opted by a handful of people. in my wrong in that assessment or do you think these institutions are resilient enough? >> no place is immune and perfect in terms of that. we got january 6 because he

already did a number corrupting the gop and the other people that contributed to the coup that almost had success. he came far closer than people know. we are already along the way and he intends to pick up and accelerate everything that he was doing. by 2026 we would be looking on the road to looking like hungry -- hungary and away we are not prepared for. >> donations have been surging to groups linked to project 2025 wrapping up for the next republican administration pick does this worry you? the sheer amount of energy and power these conservative groups are putting behind this effort to fill the white house with an army of yes-men who

fundamentally are undemocratic? >> yes it does. emphatically it does. it does for a number of reasons. the first thing, people need to listen to ruth. they need to read her book and listen to what she is telling us and what those in this space who are looking at this democracy from the inside out are trying to warn us about. it is real. these folks learned a lot from january 6. they are not going to make the same mistakes again. i'm sorry. the revolution will not be televised nor will it appear on facebook. they have learned. they will not tweet about it or text about it. they are going to create the institutions and the infrastructure away from your face. away from your prying eyes so you are caught by surprise as much as possible. groups like this, this project

2025 that are planning and raising the money. that money is going to be spent against the american people, against the very institutions you think have been safeguarded against what is about to come. it has not and it isn't. our institutions are only as strong as we are. the fact that we have a significant number of americans who are more worried about the price of gas and inflation not taken away from the importance of that, but relevant to the democracy and the threat that is in front of us that is being reported every single day, the man is telling you what he wants to do. he is telling you who he wants to do it to and he is not even giving you a reason why. he's just saying it's going to happen. you look at joe biden and think, he is just too old. what are you going to do?

you are not going to vote for donald trump. that is what this election boils down to. that's what these moments boil down to. people need to realize ruth is not on the show just because she had nothing to do on a saturday night. she has a lot to do and she has been doing it. read the books. listen to the story people are telling you firsthand from their experience and their study and i listening and watching what is about to happen . >> first of all, i second your statement that ruth has a lot of better things to do, but our democracy is at stake. we appreciate every minute of her time ringing the alarm bells as loud as possible for everyone who was watching this. unfortunately, christina, there are people who are watching this and probably listening to donald trump. is not exactly hiding these intentions on the campaign trail. this is a guy who stood up in front of a crowd and literally declared, i am your retribution. he is telling the country

exactly what he wants to do. i worry that he is numbing people into a. that is what concerns me. people out there listening to it are saying, trump is just being trump. >> amen. he began going down that gold escalator calling mexicans rapists. people said that was inappropriate. we saw him go through the campaign and pick off his contenders and then he was the nominee. we thought he really couldn't become president. he became president and was caught flat footed. what makes this moment so dangerous and horrifying, when you think about it it is because when he was first president elect, he was not prepared. he did not have people in position for transition because he honestly did not think he was going to be president. he saw his face on election

night. he was as shocked as we were. ever so many times we had whistleblowers that cared about this country and sort of put the brakes on his proposals. we had some people in his inner circle that said, sir, we can't do that. they would be fired or quit work slowly but surely they eroded. but many people in his inner circle at least at certain points, far too late, set i'm not going to do that or that is too much. remember jeff sessions, we thought he was the worst person on the planet and then rolls in bilberry. there's always a greater abyss. this time he knows what the transition looks like. he knows who he can put there. he knows he can fire lots of african-american women who are loyal soldiers in the middle and lower rungs of government who said we are not actually going to put through your proposals. we work for the american people. we don't work for you.

he knows if i just get rid of that entire swath of people i can just do what i want. there is a certain level of knowledge that he's coming into this second race with that makes it much scarier than 2016. now he has four years of preparation and reflection and revenge making that he has been working on. it is imperative that voters pay attention which sadly they are becoming immune to. >> i have made this point really quickly. it wasn't mike pence that saved us on january 6. it was dan quayle who managed to convince mike pence not to overturn the election. that's how close we were to losing this democratic experience of hours. ruth, thank you so much for joining us. we certainly appreciate it. michael and christina, please stick around. the conversation continues after the break.

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authoritarianism is being pushed to new extremes including blatant attempts to ignore the will of voters. states are enshrining reproductive rights. they are planning to introduce legislation that would strip judg of their power to interpret the amendment. the associated press reports that these republicans want the legislator to actually make decisions about the amendment. state republican house speaker echoed that idea saying, quote, the legislature has multiple paths we will explore. this is not the end of the conversation. as mother jones puts it, the gop is trying to enforce minority role.

they don't care what the vast majority of people want on this deeply personal matter. they will find a way to impose their position. back with me is michael steele and christina greer. christina, your thoughts on this. ohio republicans trying to ignore the will of the voters on two occasions. one rejected a proposal to ban abortion and to enshrine it in the constitution and make sure women have the right to an abortion. now they are saying it's not up to the judges. we are the ones that will interpret the law. >> we know that the republican party moves the goalpost to suit their needs. the real story is twofold. one, abortion is a winning issue for democrats and they need to stay the course. this is an economic issue. it's an issue about a woman's right to choose. it is really about people who believe a woman should have autonomy over her body versus

people who do not believe a woman should make decisions and have autonomy over her body. that is the clear debate. we need to make sure that we do not shorten it to abortion just because we can actually get some people who are on the fence and we could get some republican voters, not republican legislators. the issue of a woman's right to choose is overwhelmingly supported by the vast majority of americans. we have this minority of republican legislators who are so adamant about controlling a woman's body and her right to choose. changing the laws in states at all of the local states and trying to do it on the national level, we have to make sure that we keep people engaged and recognize that this is not the only issue. it is a very key and important issue especially in odd- numbered years to make sure that we don't let all of our rights that are hard-fought for the past several decades just go by the wayside because republicans have chosen to make

sure they try to take away. they are the party of regression of taking all the rights and civil liberties that we have worked so hard for. if they want to take them away when it comes to immigration, civil rights, transgender rights, marriage equity, a woman's right to choose. when it comes to education. the only way they know they will win is to steal elections and make sure democrats and de facto people of color cannot vote or to keep their voters so uninformed and uneducated they can have them go to the polls and vote against their own interest. >> i have to get your thoughts about this. rick santorum saying pure democracies are not the way to run a country. >> [laughter] that is just laughable. it is just one more silly, stupid thing that republicans say to justify what they are

doing. rick santorum nosedown well that's an idiotic statement to make. you never would have made it prior to trump when he was running for president. he never would have made it during the reagan years. why are you making it now? what point did you decide that it's not a good thing? when did that conversation happen? it speaks to a whole swath of things that we have covered tonight in terms of where this is going. this question about what they are trying to do in ohio with the legislature, the reality of it is they focus on the fact that republicans are losing a lot of elections. they are losing them at the federal level. where you need to turn the corner is at the state and local level. you need to focus on the state legislatures because that's where it begins.

they are the ones that are putting all these bills out here that criminalize a woman's travel across state lines to seek health care for herself. they assume it is abortion. it may not be but that is the way they are going. the more independent voters and democrats look at ousting these bad actors at the state level, these state legislators begin -- then you begin to turn the quarter -- corner. >> michael steele and christina greer. it is always a pleasure. thank you to both of you. coming up next i will speak with the first prosecutor of the international criminal court about calls to open an investigation into actions in gaza. stay with us. ay with us.

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three palestinian human rights groups have filed a lawsuit with the international criminal court against israel, accusing the state of committing war crimes. israel airstrikes including on hospitals and refugee camps have continued for more than a month. more than 12,300 people have been killed including an estimated 5000 children. the gaza strip has almost entirely been cut off from food, electricity, and water. the lawsuit cites that as crimes against humanity. including asking for considering crimes of apartheid and genocide, these groups are asking for arrest warrants against the israeli leaders they are accusing of committing these crimes including the president, prime minister, and defense minister. the attorney who is representing the groups and filed a suit against russian

leaders for their war crimes in ukraine said, quote, there is no place for double standards and international stice. in response to the suit, a spokesperson for the foreign minist told reuters that israel is also collecting evidence for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed by hamas during the october 7 attack. joining me to discuss this is clarice marino campo, the former first prosecutor. he held that position from 2023 to 2012. thank you so much for coming back on the show. i want to start with this charge by this lawsuit and the legal definition of genocide which requires specific intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group by killing members of the group among other criteria. the keyword for me and everyone here is intent. as you know scholars of genocide and state crime have

already pointed to. we can take a quick look at some of the statements made by israeli leaders. more than 70 statements that experts say show intent. how would you describe what is taking place? is what we are seeing genocide? >> well, the hamas attack on october 7 is genocide because the intention of hamas was to destroy jewish living in the land. that is genocide. the problem is, the answer of israel itself can also be genocide because they are killing, that is not the only form to commit genocide. the genocide convention described five different forms to commit genocide. one is inflicting conditions to

destroy a group. that is why this siege with no water and gas, that itself could be genocide. that is why, yes you can have genocide. also we can sadly also find some of the considerations. in addition to bombing the building which is a different crime. >> what about the allegation of apartheid. should the international prosecutor look into that crime as well? do you believe that threshold has been met? >> yes. there is the discretion to choose which incident is presented. for me the fact, before this problem the real problem is a war crime to this population.

that is what it is happening. they could make this decision avoiding intervention because they could intervene. in this case, it is not a crime for israel. for me, the crucial point because the problem is the settlers to the west bank, that itself is a crime. that is probably the key element to obstruct the independence for the state. so in that way, yes. i believe the most important crime is this operation of the land, the west bank. >> let me play for you the

soundbite of an independent journalist and asking the state department about america's complicit miss in this. >> legal organizations and members of congress are notice for complicity and genocide. please take note this is a letter that they sent to members of congress. please take notice that should you vote in favor of that package for israel, you are facing criminal and civil liabilities for aiding and abetting genocide . you may face investigation and prosecution. to members of the state department face similar possibilities? >> as i said, the u.s. government has a rigorous process in place for evaluating whether something constitutes genocide and we have not made that assessment. >> given the amount of support the united states is giving israel both militarily, financially and throughout all of this even diplomatically, does the united states barony

legal responsibility internationally for what is happening right now? >> that is a very important question. there is a peculiar point. the state parties including israel and the u.s. have to work to prevent genocide. the standard of prevention is very low. in a case called bosnia versus serbia it says they have obligations before the fact. as soon as they know, or they should know that there is a risk of genocide, they should prevent. the prevention depending on what the states are doing. providing weapons to israel, that is a problem for the u.s. because it is not about defining genocide. it is about the risk of

genocide. they i have a duty of prevention when there is a risk of genocide. the u.s. has an obligation to prevent genocide. >> it does not sound like you are giving a definitive answer with the last reaction. in my safe to say that? >> for me, when you say i don't know, the mitigation is important. it is not that they are sending documents that will define who is charged. they are now in bolivia, bangladesh, they are requesting to act. the issue is you can show in

the investigation to this idea to bombed buildings because you have to be sure and have evidence that you are doing the right thing. it is not so much who is investigated. the terrorists impact you. that is it about the investigation. i do not know when it will be triggered by the inventor -- the prevention is important. >> i have to apologize because we are running out of time. i always appreciate you making time for us because it is always so informative. we will have you back on the show to continue this conversation. thank you so much. we will be back. back.

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justices will continue to make their own decisions about recusal. there is no method of oversight to determine if and when a justice breaks the code. by contrast, senate judiciary democrats have spent months pushing for ethics rules with new teeth. this could or would create a public process for submitting ethics complaints. a panel of lower court judges would investigate and make recommendations based on those complaints. that code could establish new, stricter roles for recusal and disclosure of gifts and travel. the question now is whether democrats will continue pressing for this despite the announcement. it seems chairman durbin is not ready to give up just yet . we will squeak in a quick break. another hour of ayman starts right after that . .

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