many legal battles donald trump's wedding. i'm charles coleman junior, sitting in for ali velshi. another hour of velshi is coming up, after a quick break. stay right there. stay right there the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages

with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. >> good morning. home of the xfinity 10g network. it's sunday november 19th. i am charles coleman junior, filling in this morning for my friend ali velshi. unfortunately, at least tested

positive this morning for covid, we are wishing him a very speedy recovery. we begin this morning with a litany of legal matters that donald trump faces in the weeks ahead. less than 24 hours from now, a panel of judges at the court of appeals for the d.c. circuit will hear arguments regarding the gag order filed against the former president in the federal election interference case. that order was originally imposed last month by the presiding judge, tanya chutkan, intended to stop trump from making incendiary comments related to the case, including threats against possible witnesses. attorneys with the special prosecutor's office say that the gag order is necessary to ensure a fair trials, because trump's unrestrained comments could prejudice their case. you'll actually be able to hear the procedure yourself, because the audio is going to be livestreamed online, beginning at 9:30 am tomorrow. it's not necessarily must-see tv, but it's definitely going to be something you want to listen to. this whole issue has taken on a

particular significance, as the former presidents recent speeches and social media posts have grown more and more alarming and unrestrained. tomorrow's hearing should not be confused with the other gag order in one of the other cases against the former president that is also being appealed. on thursday, an appeals cot in new york temporarily listed the gag order placed on trump and his attorneys and the civil fraud trial that's currently taking place right here in new york. that gag order was issued by judge arthur engoron, and it stops trump and his legal team from making comments against the court staff, that -- on a number of different occasions, targeted judge ingraham's law clerk, and the judge in and outside of the courtroom. they accused the law clerk of bias against the former president. the bet -- gag order will, in this case, remain paused at least until november 27th, when the full panel of appeals court judges

will convene to consider the better. but within hours of that gag order being lifted on thursday, trump did what donald trump does. he kept starting to attack and attack and attack immigrants clerk, calling her quote, publicly biased and out of control. i'll say it before, and i'll say it again. that is incredibly rich when you consider the source. i'm now joined by ruth ben-ghiat. she's a professor of history at nyu, and author of the newsletter lucid, and the important book strongman, mussolini to the president. thank you so much for being here, and with us also is jason stanley, he's a professor of philosophy at yale university, and also the coauthor of the new book the politics of language. jason, good morning. i want to start with you. at a recent speech, in a since deleted truth social post, trump said quote, we pledge to

yoth we will root out the communist, marxists, fascists, and radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. this is really strong language. how blatant is the use of the word vermin in that sentence, and what is the historical significance of that language? >> so, donald trump is targeting his political opponents. as harshly as he possibly can. in the 1930s, the naughty party in their rhetoric targeted normal social democrats, just normal opposition and opponents, as merck cysts and communists. and they used that as an excuse to fill the newly built concentration camps with their political opponents. this is the very same rhetoric, and remember the 2016 election, when people said take him seriously but not literally. i hope we've learned to take

donald trump literally. >> you know, jason, i think that's an interesting point. particularly because when you look at the dobbs decision, there were so many people who understood that when donald trump said that he was serious about reversing roe v. wade, that he was going to do it. but there were a number of people who didn't believe it until it happened. and now it's happened. and so i think it's important to understand just what you said, the fact that when this man says that he's going to do something, he is serious and he's going to do it. ruth, this is not the first time that we've heard donald trump use fascist language or racist -- i've talked a lot about this. can you break it down for us, who is the wee that he's referring to, and what is this bull horn? because i'm not going to call it a dog whistle, i'm going to call it a bull horn. who is he directing that message to? >> yeah, so one of the things

that, since the fascists -- that autocrats do, is that they tried to change the perception of violence. and trump's been using his rallies and campaign events since 2015 to present violence as something positive, even patriotic, which he's managed to do with january 6th. and he's been signaling since the beginning two racist, extremists, anti government subversives, all the people who believe that violence is the way you change history, and the way you do politics. and now what he's doing is moving even further to dehumanize his targets, because this goes along with the 2025 announcements, psychological warfare, telling us that he is going to be deporting millions, caging up millions of people, locking them up, and it's to get americans psychologically prepared for that. but we are not all the want a b

autocrats, oldie extremists that around the sides of these leaders since the beginning of fascism. >> i really want to talk about the psychological preparation that ruth just mentioned. so, jason, this week we saw a group of white supremacist and madison, wisconsin, walking around, waving swastikas, and performing naughty salutes. this is in broad daylight. i see a continued straight line of connections that i think are important to understand. let's go back to 2017, in charlottesville. and then falls forward to january 6th. and just using that as an example, is there a connection with regard to the continued and boldness of white supremacist, and what does that tell us about where we are going right now? >> i think that it's less the

white supremacists with the shaved heads or flags we have to worry about. it's more about the people in suits with nausea vocabulary about great replacement theory, and like the tweet that musk liked, jews opening the borders to nonwhite immigrants, these theories that come from the mid and early 20th century about anti-semitic theories, the targeting of muslims, the targeting of people who arechstn heterosexuals, we have a lot of this -- you might recall trump's comment about when [crowd chanting] countries, and not having information from nordic countries. this is national socialist rhetoric, and it's done by people in suits, and the former president, and his supporters, and people on television.

and when you allow trump to label a centrist democrats, like joe biden as a marxist, then you are enabling. when you allow that rhetoric, you're enabling both sides. when you have an extreme right and centrist democrats that americans now think biden is the left of them, is a horrifying thing if you think about it. and that's the success of this rhetoric that we know. this is practice by fascist to call anyone who's not a slavish devotee of their party and their leader a marxist. to call any pro democracy person a marxist. and as a result, we're seeing extremist ideology being illegitimate it, not just by these thugs on the street, but at the very corridors of power. the people that donald trump wants to replace, federal bureaucrats are going to be race --

replaced by people of this ideology. >> i think that a lot of viewers need to understand, we are in 2024, and so this has nuance and structure to it. it's important to note that the curbside bigot, who's walking around with a shaved head and the swastikas, or the news, or the hateful language and the tiki torches, they are not the only concern. they are a concern to safety, they are a concern to our way of life. but equal and or ports if not more so are people who are using the coated language that you described, who have access to the institutions and maintaining those institutional constraints that allow for these sorts of ideologies to thrive and to flourish, while using coated language to control the narrative. so it's really important that people get that, and understand that it's not just a battle that were fighting on the ground level. this is something that has infiltrated our institutions in such a way that we have to be mindful of it, beyond just the curbside bigot.

ruth, we are talking about a pair of appeals hearings that are coming up regarding donald trump's gag orders, and these pertain specifically to his attacks on possible witnesses, as well as others. what do you make of how he uses his platform, specifically truth social, while he's on the campaign trail, in speaking about these people that are connected to his multiple pending cases? >> two points. one is that donald trump is a destroyer of democracy. and what he's doing by insulting and threatening judges, and refusing to respond to gag orders, just like his associates will respond to subpoenas, he's showing a total scoring for the democratic justice. and he wants to discredited and we everyone associated with it so thoroughly, that it's part of destroying democracy and bringing in a kind of

autocratic justice that will make all of his legal problems go away. the other thing is that from mussolini and hitler on, these types of leaders said these selves of truth tellers. and they're the ones that will tell you the truth that the deep state in this case, the media, they won't tell you. and so he is a victim of this, and all of these narratives and tactics are coming together now so that this is why people ask, well, why does he become popular even though he has more indictments and more legal problems. this is why. he is primed his followers to believe he's the victim, and 's all of the things that happened to him or proof of this. >> jason, people always talk about the notion of -- but i want to talk to you about something that i think is a little nuanced. donald trump is no stranger to attacking his political enemies, but is it fair to say -- because this is something i've watched and other people have noticed. that when it comes to people

like alvin bragg, like fani willis, like that he shot james, for example, that his attacks carry a different level of vitriol then when it comes to talking about on mike pence, for example, or even nancy pelosi? is that a fair observation, and if so, what does that tell us? >> contempt for the rule of law, in the first instance. waste, of course. the idea of a woman holding him to account. because there's a kind of hierarchy in donald trump's vision. it's the hierarchy that he's appealing to, and it's very appealing. patriarchy, the idea that a wealthy white man, macho businessman, should be able to do what he wants. is above the law, is not subject to white people or women or african americans. because that violates what he regards as the natural hierarchy, and many of his

supporters due to. and this brings in both men of any race, and it brings in white nationalists. this idea of hierarchy. democracy is committed to the rule of law, and what that means is that anyone, black or white, woman or man, non-binary people, you are in that position, as a judge, is and has the sacred duty of democracy and protecting the rule of law. so the contempt that he is showing is an attack on the equality that democracy, that democratic rule brings. an attack on the rule of law, and he's saying it's racial and your macho leader who is the real law. >> the intersection of identity to become incendiary. thank you both, ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history, at nyu and author of the book, strongmen from mussolini to the present. and jason stanley, a professor

of philosophy at yale university. and also the author of the brand-new book, the politics of language. still ahead, this hour on velshi. a potential deal to release some of the hostages in gaza is in the works. but the u.s. is warning that nothing is finalized yet. we will get the latest from tel aviv, plus, there was a lot to talk about the day after and what comes next following the israel-hamas war. but still, there is no clear agreement on the way forward. we will get into all of this and more, are charles coleman junior, you're watching velshi, on msnbc. on msnbc on msnbc el darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is proven to deliver t reef to let in the lyte. across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts.

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negotiators are close to a deal that would receive the release of some of the hostages held at gunpoint in exchange for a pause in fighting. the two sources, a diplomat, and a sick an unnamed source cautioned, however, that nothing has been finalized yet, which means any potential deal could still fall apart. john finer, deputy national security adviser, told meet the press moderator kristen welker earlier this morning that this is the closest they'd been to an agreement. >> but i can say at this point is that some of the outstanding areas of disagreement in a very complicated, very sensitive negotiation, have been narrowed. but i believe we are closer than we have been in quite some time, maybe closer than we have been since the beginning of this process, to getting this deal done. and we are following this minute by minute, hour by hour, and have been for a number of weeks, up to and including the president, for whom this is a major priority, as you just heard. but at this point, we really need to adhere to the mantra

that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. you know, sensitive goshen like this can fall apart of the last-minute. >> hamas objected to and 40 hostages during its october 7th attack, inside israel, that roughly killed 1200 people. meanwhile, the situation of gaza's largest hospital continues to deteriorate. the united nations team visiting al-shifa hospital on saturday described it as a, quote, death zone. the team, led by the world health organization, says that 291 patients were left at al-shifa hospital after israeli troops forced about 2500 palestinians to evacuate on saturday morning, those who are left behind included around 30 babies in extremely critical condition. patients who had severely infected wounds, and others, who had spinal injuries that were unable to move. but the palestinian red crescent now says 31 babies from al-shifa have crossed the rafah crossing into egypt. nbc news correspondent, erin

mclaughlin, is in tel aviv with the latest, erin? >> this morning, we're hearing from qatar, seen as a key intermediary in the hostage negotiations this morning in doha, the qatari prime minister saying he has growing confidence that a deal could be reached, and that only minor logistical issues remain. a source with knowledge of the negotiations telling nbc news that they are closing in on a deal, but that nothing has been finalized, and that could still fall apart. meanwhile, the world health organization says it managed to reach the al-shifa hospital complex yesterday after the hospital was partially evacuated. they visited for an hour, described just this desperate situation, including a mass grave at the hospital entrance, waste in the halls, as well as evidence of gunfire and shelling. it says it is now working to evacuate the hospital, the hundreds of patients and hospital staff remaining, including more than 30 critically ill babies. they are looking to evacuate

them to the south. but those hospitals are also overwhelmed by patients. meanwhile, the israeli military says it is continuing to search the complex for evidence of what it alleges as a hamas command center very brief banana the complex. and mclaughlin, nbc news, tel aviv. >> still ahead on velshi. the brutal war between israel and hamas has created more questions than answers. but the most crucial question is what comes next? we will have that and more when we return, you're watching velshi on msnbc. it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms, like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could be something more serious called attr-cm, a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist, and ask about attr-cm.

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but there is no clear agreement on how to move forward. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu appears to be headed for a collision course with u.s. leadership. he has publicly disagreed with american proposals and insists on having full security control over gaza after the war. this is a position the u.s. does not support. so much so that in a washington post op-ed, president biden on saturday proposed a way forward emphasizing the importance of a two-state solution and suggesting that a, quote, revitalized palestinian authority should oversee a unified gaza in the west bank. the palestinian authority currently governs the west bank and ruled gaza prior to 2007 now biden's words are at odds with the language used by netanyahu, who has rejected the idea of the palestinian authority covering and governing gaza. biden has also cautioned israel against hisg e palestinian population.

israel force evacuation of prompted many human rights experts to accuse israel of engaging in ethnic cleansi. and the offense, biden says, quote, there stno forceable displacement of palestinians from gaza, reoccupation no siege, or blockage, and no reduction in after this war is over, the voices of inian people and their aspirations must be at the center of post crisis governance in gaza. with one these developments, i'm joined by aaron david miller, he is a senior fellow with the american stagecraft program at the carnegie endowment for international peace, aaron is also a former senior adviser for arab israeli negotiations at the state department. erin, thank you for being here this morning. we've talked about a two-state solution for a very long time at different points, but is that even possible right now? when there doesn't seem to be even traction on either side?

>> first, of all charles, thank you for having me. right, now and for the foreseeable future, it is almost unimaginable that you can get israelis and palestinians into a series of negotiations designed to solve the issues of his conflict. imagine jerusalem, security, borders, refugees, and then a commitment by both sides to end all of those claims. and the wake of this, you're going to ask for two highly traumatize communities. and the key to any success, including in washington, i might add, his leadership. at its very difficult for me to a mansion on the israeli or palestinian side, in the wake of this, or even before this crisis, charles. that in essence, you have leaders who are masters of their political houses, not prisoners of their ideologies, willing to reach out to the other side and basically legitimize the notion that it is not one hand clapping. this conflict is driven by the

mutual requirements of israelis and palestinians. they have to be reconciled, so down the road, perhaps, with the right leaders, yes. for the foreseeable future, probably not. >> erin, we're starting to see more and more of a splinter in the discourse between what joe biden is saying as the president of the u.s., and an arduous supporter of israel, versus what netanyahu was saying in terms of, where he wants to go with this and how he wants to govern. how sustainable is that? it seems to me that it is creating a terrible situation in terms of how tenuous their relationship is, so if this continues where they seem to be going a different direction, what happens there? >> you know, it is fascinating, basically that the president has created in a very powerful october 10th speech, one of the best of his presidency's, i think. a frame in which he's prepared to give the israelis the time, the space, and the political

support that they need, to do what they think they need to do in gaza. but there is no question that, with respect to the day after, there are major differences. it's probably inevitable that the israelis will remain in gaza, because frankly, i don't see a revitalized palestinian authority being willing and able to govern their. i don't see arab states with boots on the ground trying to suppress what remains of residual hamas insurgency, which is quite possible, the international force is going to be extremely problematic, particularly of gaza remains unstable. so the gap, i think, on the day after between israel and united states is going to widen. but let's be clear we're entering 2024. and the strategic imperative for this administration, for this president, is to win reelection against the presumptive nominee of the republican party. as you know, as well as i,

israel is a fraud issue politically. i think the president, frankly, is still prepared, given everything that he has said and done, to give the israelis, at least for now, point. i think benjamin a tenure whose future is very much, let's put it, in the uncertainty category. the average length of an israeli governments incident candace is only 1.8 years. this government has reached its one year mark, and it is hard for him to origin residing over the worst terror strike in israel's history, the bloodiest day for a juiced since the end of the not the holocaust, that benjamin netanyahu has a long term future. so you may be dealing actually with the different israeli government, different israeli prime minister, which will absolutely make things a little bit easier. >> aaron david miller, there is so much we could talk about, thank you for your contacts during today's very important discussion. you are the senior fellow at the american stagecraft program at the carnegie endowment for

international peace. don't go anywhere. we have more on velshi, right after a short break. and you don't want to miss our next segment. i'm charles coleman junior. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. a. (vo) tepezza is the only medicine that treats t.e.d. at the source not just the symptoms. in a clinical study more than 8 out of 10 patients taking tepezza had less eye bulging. tepezza is an infusion and may cause infusion reactions. tell your doctor right away if you experience high blood pressure, fast heartbeat, shortness of breath or muscle pain. before treatment, tell your doctor if you have diabetes, ibd, or are pregnant, or planning to become pregnant. tepezza may raise blood sugar and may worsen ibd. tepezza may cause severe hearing problems which may be permanent. (bridget) now, i'm ready to be seen again.

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if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪far-xi-ga♪ >> welcome back. you're watching velshi on msnbc. i'm charles coleman junior, in this morning for ali. i'm as big a fan as anyone else of the velshi banned book club, but i have to tell you. next week's meeting is going to

be a great one. instead of focusing on just one book. ali will be speaking with the ceo of p flag. that is the first and largest organization dedicated to supporting, educating, and advocating for lgbtq+ people and their families. books that tell queer stories are being removed from library shelves and reading lists at a disproportionately high rate. what type of message is that sending to young people? an incredibly dangerous one, that's what type. the stakes are extremely high when it comes to access to literature for lgbtq+ young people. you do not wanna missus meeting of the velshi banned book club next week, and i can tell you that i certainly won't. still to come today on velshi, even though nearly half of the population gets their period every single month, there is still a major stigma associated with it. periodical, which is a new

documentary by msnbc films is going to premiere tonight at 10:00. and that actually aims down the stigma around women and their menstrual cycle. after the break, i will speak with two experts who are actually featured in the film. you're watching velshi, on msnbc, i am charles coleman, and we'll be right back. and we'll be right back. soup and salad. thank you! like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together... can help you make smarter decisions. for a more confident financial future. hey, a tandem bicycle. you can't do that by yourself. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected. meet the traveling trio. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe.

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how do you know? let me show you something. it looks like a credit card, but it is the kardiamobile card. that is a medical-grade ekg. want to see how it works? yeah. put both thumbs on there. that is your heart coming from the kardiamobile card. wow! with kardiamobile card, you can take a medical-grade ekg in just 30 seconds, from anywhere. kardiamobile card is proven to detect atrial fibrillation, one of the leading causes of stroke. and it's the only personal ekg that's fda-cleared to detect normal heart rhythm, bradycardia and tachycardia. how much do you think that costs? probably $500. $99. oh, really? you could carry that in your wallet. of course you could carry it in your wallet, right? yes, yes. kardiamobile card is just $79 during our thanksgiving sale. don't wait! get kardiamobile card for yourself or a loved one today at kardia.com or amazon. >> welcome back, i'm charles

coleman junior, st. my friend and colleague ali velshi this morning. let's talk about some that you might not expect from me, or from ali, for that matter. periods and menopause. these are topics that affect half of the population, but they are not anything to be squeamish about. in fact, it is time to bring it back to open, that is exactly what we're gonna do. as we get ahead of any future claims of mansplaining, because i know that that is a thing,

the following segment is indeed written and produced by female member of the velshi team. so thank you for keeping us all out of trouble. the stigma around menstruation and menopause all started at the beginning of time. the male body was a standard, which then, of course, left the female body reproductive system in periods to be speculative upon, and frankly misunderstood and confused while being interpreted by people who would never actually experienced them, mainly, men. the first ever encyclopedia written in 77 a.d. had an entire chapter dedicated to menstruation, which said that a woman spirit could drive a dog mad, and even had the power to kill crops. wow. the word hysteria comes from the greek and latin word, history, which actually translates into uterus. that is a difficult association to shake. hysteria wasn't taken out of the have fischel health manuals

until 1980. that is 1980. that was used as a catchall for doctors in cases that they did not know how to diagnose. so if we're clear here, if i don't know how to diagnose something, it's 1979, and i am wanted to try and figure out what something is, to call it hysteria. women being the amazing people that they are pushed forward through this history and manage their menstrual cycles the best where they could. for a while, that actually meant using linens, or even leaves to absorb blood so they could go about their day and be amazing. the first sanitary pad was not even invented until the first world war, when nurses realized that the bandages they were using to stop wounded soldiers from bleeding would actually be more affective than the typical homemade solutions they have become accustomed to. then came actual products to help manage and conceal period

blood. they were rubber underwear, sanitary suspenders, and of course, tampons. including a tampon created by the band, rely, which was meant to be worn for the entirety of the users period. needless to say, a single tampon worn for a week on average, resulted in some health issues. including an astounding number of deaths due to toxic shock syndrome. fast forward the present day, and you might think all of those stories that i just told you were somewhat archaic. 1980, hysteria, 1980. but this deep inequality has not yet been solved. not even close. what women deal with this painful inconvenience every month, they are still being taxed on the products that help them manage their menstrual cycles in over half the states in america. an estimated annual total of 1300 dollars per person, as a matter of fact, it is also

worth noting that women who make up 51% of the current population of the united states, and still make up about 28% of the current congress, and 0% of the 46 people who have ever been president the united states, are the ones who are dealing with this. representation of the people who have periods in our culture, and our politics, and our policies have to improve. >> which debuts tonight at ten pm eastern and it is a much anticipated watch. on the other side of the break, we'll bring you a sneak peek and i will talk to other experts who are actually featured in the film, so don't go anywhere. you're watching velshi on msnbc, i'm charles coleman junior, and we will be right back. junior, an we will be right back. we will be right back. at conversation. oh, no, not about that. about what comes next in life.

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the suffering alone, and not knowing. waking up one, day and not feeling yourself. you don't know whether that self-is returning, you don't know if you are losing your minds, suddenly the way someone it turns the pages, suddenly the way someone speaks, the perfume that they're wearing. all of these things that are

sensory, your sensory overload is just like the. so, there's no one to talk to you about it. >> that was award winning actor naomi watts in the new msnbc documentary periodical, opening up about her experience with the transition into mental pause, and the isolation she felt from her newfound symptoms. joining me now are two experts featured in msnbc's periodical, alicia harder zoning gupta, who's a reporter for the new york times that focuses on women's health and health issues, and chris paul win, professor of women's gender studies and sexuality -- thank you both for being here, good morning. you just heard from naomi watts, her talking about her experience with metal paws and discovering her symptoms. what is the stigma coming from? >> well, actually charles, thank you for having me.

this stigmas the same stigma that you mentioned before the break, the same stigmatization and discrimination around -- extends into a part of a woman's life that when she stops menstruating, which is menopause. except at that point, that stigma is also compounded by ageism. there is this idea that at menopause, people are somehow shriveling up and are no longer useful to society, when in fact more than 15 million women, ages 45 to 60, or in the workplace. they're still working, and there is still part of that stigma that comes from an information void. there's still very little that we understand about menopause. in 2002, a major study called the woman's health initiative raised some serious concerns about the health risk of hormone therapy for menopause, causing doctors and patients to abandoned it. but it also led to research, and so we're now in a position

where researchers are kind of playing catch-up to make up for all of that lost time. and to add to all of this, many women that are going through menopause, are in the workplace, and it's hits at the peak of their career, where they feel more pressure to maybe hide their struggles. she just sort of grin and bear it, and there are millions of women today who are simply suffering in silence. >> i'm sure this conversation is very, very important to a lot of women out there. but i can tell you that this sunday, for myself and for many of my male friends and colleagues, this is the type of education that we need. chris, i want to ask you. what, in terms of the misconceptions that come with menopause,, they get the idea of wrong because a woman doesn't have periods anymore, that somehow they are out of order. can you address that as crazy as it sounds, the fact that this is an actual thought by a contingency who was still, with all the information out there,

has no idea about the female body? >> sure. i mean, this is the brilliance of the patriarchy. is to fundamentally devalue the female body, and that's across the life course. it begins at the first munchel period, and it persists across the life course. so it's not surprising that menstrual stigma, which suppresses to access and information around the menstrual cycle, continues through the menopause face of the life course. it's augmented by ageism. so you have sexism plus ageism produces menopause invisibility. and that's why people don't self advocate. that's what they don't understand what's happening to their bodies. that's why we have these research gaps or these knowledge voids. >> i have to ask you, alicia, in terms of what we're talking about, this is something -- the level of ignorance is a

threat to the safety of women, and we've seen that play out. we've seen it play out on the political battlefield, we've seen it play out in the health care space, and this is something that we truly have to be focused in on in order to disrupt the cycle of the stigmatized aspects of women's health. we've seen a shift in the way that society perceives mental health as a whole, but what do we do to normalize talking about it, specifically in the area around women, their bodies, and the things that go on with their bodies? >> that's a great question, and i just want to add, just to dispel the idea that the stigmatization is archaic, like you mentioned before the ad. in 2016, a woman who was suffering from perryman a puzzle periods, which are extremely heavy, extremely unpredictable, she was fired from her job because of the unexpected bleeding into her

office chair. they fired her for poor hygiene standards, as if it's in her control. so the idea that menstruation and menopause is something that you as a person can control, rather than something that's happening to you constantly, there are parts in the documentary where experts have spoken to lawmakers who think that if you go to the toilet, that's when you menstruate. it's not a happening 24 hours around the clock when you're menstruating. and so they can see to this void of information and lack of education. this year, washington d.c. became the first jurisdiction in the country to roll out mandatory standardized classes on menstrual health. the fact that it's the first, that speaks volumes. and 21 states, as this documentary shows, are still having taxes on period products, and none of the government programs that are designed for low income people, like snap or

medicaid, include cost of period products. so it's this sort of oblivion, and it's an overlooked facet of life that or will only be tackled if we can first educate, and we can first have women and men understand what menstruation is, and then they can be more proactive about it. >> you pointed something out, and it came up in this discussion as something that i really had never thought about. there's this very interesting and restrictive paradigm where on one hand, menstruation cycles are stigmatized, and periods are stigmatized. but then on the other hand, fertility in of itself is valued. but then when you stop getting your period, and in terms of menopause, now there's a stigma attached to that, so there's really no sort of zone that actually works. not to mention what would happen if men were the ones who got periods, like the world

would explode. what's their measure for success here in terms of shifting the paradigm, and getting folks to look at this from a different perspective? >> great question. we have to begin to take woman's bodies seriously, and recognize that essential value of body autonomy and self determination. menstrual stigma, if we address menstrual stigma, we're addressing reproductive justice. so for me, menstrual stigma is really the tip of the iceberg. have a whole set of values that discipline -- strive to disappoint women's bodies, and say that your body is not yours, your body is a commodity. your fertility is constrained, it's not up to you. we're not going to provide you with information and resources to care for your body in ways that make sense. so instead of the body being a sight of power, privilege, potential, and even, pleasure it's considered and seen as

something that needs to be maintained, that there are certain rules of engagement, that somebody's are better than others, that construct somebody says desirable, and we have to push back. the best ways to build body literacy, and of course menstrual and menopause literacy is a key part of that. >> this is the education i needed today on this sunday, and i hope that everyone watching learned something and thinks about this in a much more critical way. thank you to you both, alicia reporter for the new york times, and chris, professor of women's gender and sexuality studies at the university of matches two shots at boston. do not miss the premiere of periodical tonight at ten pm, right here on msnbc. that is going to do it for me, i am charles coleman junior. it has been an honor and a pleasure to fill in for my friend ali velshi. ali, unfortunately tested positive for covid this morning, and my friend, we are wishing you a very speedy recovery. a speciet