things, renewable energy, electric vehicles. they're starting to drill down on those more, specifically focusing on things like infrastructure. those are things they hope voters will notice at home, that the bridge is fixed, the wi-fi is faster. it's really, you know, we're a year out still. we'll see if that resonates. when you look at what voters say they think biden has done, he really doesn't get a lot of credit for the various bills he's passed during his presidency. >> the biden team also believes when americans start really hearing donald trump again next year, they'll take note of his own age, his own erratic behavior, and dangerous plans for the future. bloomberg politics editor, laura davidson, thank you for being with us. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. by the way, it's my birthday today. they actually sang "happy birthday" to me. i'll say, it is difficult turning 60, difficult. 76th anniversary of this event, and i want you to know, i wasn't

there for the first one. i was too young to make it up. these birds have a new appreciation of the words, "let freedom ring." >> president biden with some age jokes during the turkey pardon at the white house. meanwhile, his campaign is facing calls from democrats to become more active and aggressive against donald trump. speaking of the former president, we have a lot going on this morning. we'll explain what happened yesterday in the gag order hearing for his federal election interference case. plus, republican senator tommy tuberville's latest outlandish reason for blocking -- >> oh, my gosh. >> -- hundreds of military promotions. >> he can't help himself. >> he intellectually degrades himself every single day. >> stop him before he humiliates himself again. >> please, don't double down on dumb. also ahead, we'll have the latest on the hostage negotiations between hamas and israel, which appears to be

centered on the pause in fighting in gaza. we'll have the very latest on that. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 21st. we're getting closer to thanksgiving. >> yeah, getting close. >> with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. >> jonathan also spared in the ceremony yesterday, thank god. >> oh, right. >> big day. >> pardoned. >> he was pardoned. >> poor jonathan, he's not a turkey. >> i didn't say he was. >> needed a pardon, though. >> bbc news' katty kay also with us. host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. >> the one who does the mourning and the forgiving and the blessing. >> yes, he does. we're going to start on a grim note here. we have a lot to get to this morning. donald trump's latest -- >> you're talking about the lead of "the new york times" today. >> i know. >> i've got to say, it's really

important that we're talking about the possible ending of democracy, and it's really important that these stories are in just about every day, to, again, keep explaining to people. if they decide they want to throw away american democracy and go toward autocracy, they can never say they weren't warned. >> that is true. donald trump's latest extreme remarks describing his political enemies as vermin that he needs to root out is sparking new concern about his authoritarian rhetoric. that's the piece on the front page of "the new york times." it notes this, "he has insieuated that the nation's top military general should be executed and cled for the termination of parts of the constitution. if he wins back the white house, he has said he would have no choice but to imprison political opponents." the paper continues,

"mr. trump's rise to power was almost immediately accompaied by debates over whether his ascendency, and that of other leaders around the world with similar political views, signalled a revival of fascism. fascism is generally understood as an authoritarian, far-right system of government where hypernationalism is a central component. it also often features a cult of personality around a strongman leader, the justification of violence or retribution against opponents, and the repeated denigration of the rule of law, said peter hayes, a historian who has studied the rise of fascism." it feels like the drn. >> check the list. >> history lesson. >> go down the list of fascism tendenci of past fascist leaders, and he ticks them all off. >> right. >> except for one thing.

let's get to that, but keep reading. >> "fascist leaders appeal to victimhood to justify their actions." >> they're all snowflakes. >> "the idea is we're entitled because we've been victimized. we've been cheated and robbed, he said. one expert who has researched political rheric tells "the times" that mr. trump has wielded language as a chisel to chip away at democratic norms. normally, a president would use war rhetoric to prepare a nation for war against another nation, she said. donald trump uses war rhetoric domestically." >> that, katty kay, is what's so frightening. his focus is notcountries. it's in taking over this country, undermining american democracy, undermining the rule of law, calling for the termination of the constitution, calling still for the arresting

and the imprisonment of his political opponents, something he did to me as a member of the media. something he did to the biden family the last two weeks of the 2020 campaign when he was yelling at his attorney general to arrest the entire biden family. but you look at it, and here it is, i mean, the frightening thing is, there are far too many americans who seem disinterested in the degradation, not only of civility, not only of all of the character traits that their parents taught them growing up, that they learn in their communities, that they learn in their churches, but they seem completely disinterested in the fact that the leader they're following, well, he's an autocrat. he's talking like an autocrat, and he has promised them he is going to rule like an autocrat, arresting political opponents

and deciding for himself what new shows stay on television and what new shows don't. >> several of the last few years you've had a lot of trump supporters hide behind this idea of seriously but not literally, right? or literally but not seriously. >> right. >> it's all kind of a joke when he says this sort of thing. >> right. >> it's depressing, getting their hair on fire and saying, this all sounds autocratic. but a couple conversations i've had recently with people close to the trump campaign, it's exactly that that they point to as one of the first things they'll do, is this idea of political retribution and remaking the judicial system, both to protect donald trump and to get vindication for perceived wrongs. when you ask, well, you know, one interview i had, "what changes in trump's second tm?e was, "tony fauci goes to jail."

it's using government to defend one person, literally subverting the justice and taking it inside the white house. "the washington post" wrote this this week, "it is time to take him both seriously and literally." the plans are there. i mean, the plans are already being laid out. the number of historians who are now students of autocracy, who are saying, "you need two they thinks for an autocratic regime to thrive." one is the normalization of violence kind of language, and we have seen some of that happening, and then the denigration of your opponents and treating them not human, words like vermin, for example. so you have got this kind of toxic situation at the moment where the groundwork is being laid from the campaign but also from trump supporters, to try to create a situation where it is normal to think of using violence somehow to justify political ends. then it doesn't take long for that to spiral out of control. both sides start seeing that as

something that is justified. >> jonathan lemire, it's what we heard from people that were, i guess, just too offended, or maybe perhaps too delicate to call a fascist a fascist, or to call fascism, fascism. for years, people said, "you know, we don't have the violence component." despite the fact donald trump threw -- throughout the first campaign said, "beat the hell out of my opponents, and i'll pay your lawyer fees." >> people on both sides. >> -- for asking a question about health care reform. charlottesville, good people on both sides, trying to justify that. january 6th then comes. there's really no ambiguity there. like mussolini going after government buildings with violence, taking over government buildings with violence on his rise. we have january 6th. we have the example of paul

pelosi, a guy, a speaker of the house's husband, a speaker of the house he calls deranged and crazy and all these other things, dehumanizes. then he still, he still revels in an 82, 83-year-old man having the hell beaten out of him. so the violence component of fascism is there. i just want to go through, again, this "new york times" article. let's just go through them. it's time that fascism is called fascism and americans know exactly what they're voting for. you know, i've heard people poo-poo this and go, oh, people on the far left, no. i'm a conservative. i'm on the right. there's a difference between conservatism, radicalism, and fascism. this is fascism. this is "the times," quotes an expert on the topic. fascism is generally understood. this is boilerplate stuff really for what fascism is. fascism is generally understood

as an authoritarian far-right system of government in which hypernationalism is a central component. check. it also features a cult of personality around a strongman leader. check. the justification of violence or retribution against opponents. check. and the repeated denigration of the rule of law. check, said peter hayes, a historian who studied the rights of fascism. past fascist leaders appeal to a sense of victim hood to justify their actions. check. we're entitled because we've been robbed. we've been victimized. we've been cheated and robbed. check, check, check. the whining, the snowflakery coming from the trump people. i mean, a snowflake falls on their shoulders, and they're victimized. they're victimized by history books on hank aaron. they're victimized by kids' books on roberto clemente.

they're victimized by tweets. you name it, they are victimized by everything. they are such weak snowflakes, and they're using that victimization to justify violence against their opponents, jonathan. >> yeah, this is such an important conversation, to call out what we're seeing clearly and plainly. reminds me of 2015/2016. a lot of media organizations struggled to characterize some of the things he was saying. we'd come up with phrases like "racially tinged," instead of where we eventually got, where we called things racist where they were racist. now, it is time to say these things are fascist. use the word. we've been doing it on this show for a while, but it does seem like media organizations, others are starting to really do the same and make clear what is happening here, what trump has done before and what he's threat

threatening to go. i was at a journalism conference over the weekend. molly jong-fast, our friend, was with me on a panel. we were approaching this campaign as journalists, saying he is an insurrectionist candidate. yes, while there, of course, will be focus on the day-to-day developments, focus on polls, focus on policy, one thing i said there, and we endorsed this as a panel, is the idea of we need to focus on the stakes of this election. it's not just the day-to-day events. it is the stakes. frankly, the stakes are democracy itself. when we hear donald trump put forth his plans for what a second term would look like and embrace this fascist rhetoric and policy. >> right. >> another thing that fascists do is they obliterate norms and, in trump's case, he is coming at this country with so many different problems, with so many different, whether it be racist, fascist, cruel, just sick tendencies that you can't keep up with it.

you pointed out one, quite frankly, relatively, shouldn't be, small example. the paul pelosi example. he was brutally attacked by a man inspired by trump in his home. i just want to put a frame around this. he's still making fun of it, insinuating it was coming to him and there was something with his life. this was a guy inspired by trump, who broke into his home and beat him. i believe with a hammer. >> yeah. >> imagine, i don't know, when steve scalise was shot. >> mm-hmm. >> if any one person -- >> not any one person, if barack obama. >> anybody. >> let's -- this isn't somebody on a back bench. this is the leader of the republican party. it would be as if barack obama continued mocking steve scalise for getting shot while practicing baseball for years into the future. my god, what would happen in the

press? what would republicans say? there would be, rightfully, a meltdown. now, there's silence because this is donald trump. >> yeah. >> who is glorifying the beating up of an 82, 83-year-old man. >> the republicans who don't speak out to that and the people in the audiences, i'm sorry -- >> don't be sorry. >> -- who think it is funny. >> they're propping it up. >> you are failing this country, and you'll only find out when it is too late, when you realize that a moment for a laugh or, oh, he's just kidding and glossing over all of this has been at the peril of the united states. it's not an exaggeration. it's not hyperbole. it is not overstating it. this is where we are when you let a man behave that way. >> right. >> when you look at these cases that he is dealing with in the courts, i know the law moves slowly, but there are even, you know, concepts and conversations about, you know, special

treatment for this former president because he is a former president. i think all of that happens at our peril. at some point, this man must face accountability or we all suffer. >> it certainly does. people in the media have a responsibility to really tune out the voices of the haters, of the people that are constantly double, triple checking and shilling for him, suggesting somehow they're being bias. bending over backwards, treating him like a normal candidate. he is not a normal candidate. he is running to end american democracy as we know it. he is an authoritarian who a court in colorado two days ago ruled that he led an insurrection against the united states government. he is charged with leading schemes to help overthrow the united states government. so if they want to frame it that way, that's fine. if you want to be fair, if you want to be fair, you will frame

this as joe biden being the candidate that supports american democracy and donald trump, a candidate who supports a new form of government here that's authoritarian. it's that simple. by the way, when reverend al go, oh, you can't compare him to past nazi leaders, this past nazi leader or that past fascist leader, because he hasn't done -- well, what hasn't he done? he hasn't done the things that the american judicial system did not allow him to do last time but may very well allow him to do this time, or a judicial system that will be ignored by donald trump and ran over by donald trump to create the greatest constitutional crisis of our lifetimes. just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean he won't do it when he gets a chance to do it. if he is voted into office, then

a lot of these people that are talking about literal or figurative or whatever the hell they're saying, are going to lock like idiots. he will do, he will get away with, he will imprison, he will execute whoever he is allowed to imprison, execute, drive from the country. just look at his past. it's not really hard to read. again, the only thing that stood between him and the destruction of american democracy was the federal judiciary. >> no doubt about it. and i think that when we talk about framing this race, he has framed it. he has said out loud what you and i and others that have known him have been trying to say for a long time. he saysays, "let's remove all doubt. this is what i'm about."

when people say you can't compare him to past dictators, he's embraced present dictators. he was a sitting president talking about writing love letters to the dictator in north korea. he had kind words to say about dictators all over the world. we're not taking him out of context or interpreting him. let's remember, joe, when you talk about he -- and "the new york times" talked about he saying he would go after his opponents and his criticritics, to criminalize them and prosecute them, this is a man that sat in the white house and watched for hours, an insurrection he incited, like he was watching some drama that he was addicted to. he enjoyed it. you don't think he'd be sitting in the white house if he were given the chance and watch his critics, his opponents being arraigned in court, eating popcorn, enjoying it? that's who he is.

it's not about framing it, it's about accepting the framing he's given himself. if somebody tells you that's who they are, that's who they are. stop trying to put a different frame on an ugly picture. >> well, again, just look to his past, you know, the past as prologue. look to the past. liz cheney always said, the most chilling thing about donald trump's behavior on january 6th was that he was going back and forth with his dvr and rewinding and watching in the oval office the most violent part of the attacks, while his friends -- he has no friends -- while his acquaintances, while his family members -- >> employees. >> -- all of his lawyers, while everybody in the white house was telling him to call it off. he was rewinding the most violents of the riots,

watching it gleefully over and over again. katty, back to "the new york times" article, i want to read one part that reverend al just basically referenced. again, so shocking that it's from people that used to be, well, that are members of a party i used to be a member of. >> don't recognize. >> in another lifetime. in another lifetime. let me read this. "crowds at mr. trump's events have generally affirmed his calls to drive out the political establishment to destroy fake news media. supporters do not flinch when he praises leaders like mr. orban, xi jinping of china, and vladimir putin of russia." and these very people, these very dictators, the most bloodthirsty dictators on the face of the earth are the very people donald trump praises the

most, and crowds in iowa and new hampshire and south carolina in the republican party cheer his praises of the worst dictators on the face of the earth. >> that's always been one of the most, you know, odd things about the republican party's following of donald trump in this way. this is the party that, up until -- you know, i'm thinking of george w. bush very recently in american history, ronald reagan, of course, much more forcefully taking on authoritarian regimes. i mean, bush's second inaugural address was all about how america would stand up for people promoting human rights and democracy around the world, in the face of authoritarianism. it wasn't that long ago the republican party saw itself as the global champion of democratic rights, and the voters in the republican party, the people who would call themselves rank and file members of the republican party were firmly on the side of taking on

autocracy and taking on autocrat s. they would have seen vladimir putin as america's enemy, xi jinping as america's enemy, kim jong-un. that's been the shift almost that's most remarkable in the ideology of the rank and file of the republican party, as it follows donald trump wherever he wants to go. >> well, and that is a crazy thing. republicans have long considered themselves champions, like reagan, of western democracy, of western liberalism, of pushing back against communist tyrants, and now they embrace them. >> yup. >> because donald trump embraces them. they embrace orban of hungary. no, donald, no, donald, he's not in turkey. that's another guy. but orban of hungary, who has

bragged about destroying western democracy, who proudly says he's an illiberal, and no western democracy is practiced in hungary. these republicans are praising that illiberalism. >> it is crazy. >> it is the total antithesis of everything the republican party and ronald reagan believed in and fought for his entire life. still ahead on "morning joe," speaker mike johnson is following kevin mccarthy's footsteps. we'll have new reporting on the meeting at mar-a-lago between the new speaker and donald trump. plus, polls show president joe biden losing support among key groups for democrats. we'll tell you who it is and how his campaign is responding. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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beautiful shot of the sun coming up in new york city, just before 6:30 a.m. here on the east coast. a three-judge panel on the u.s. court of appeals looks poised to at least narrow the gag order against former president trump in the federal election interference case. trump's defense team had argued that the gag order, which stops the former president from discussing witnesses and prosecutors in that case, they believe it violates his constitutional rights. nbc news is reporting that the judges didn't immediately issue a decision, but they indicated in their questioning that they could leave the gag order in place while narrowing its scope. the panel questioned the trump team's argument that the former

president's speech could not be pared back at all, regardless of possible threats,imy because he is a presidential candidate. >> i don't hear you giving any- any weight at all to the interest in a fair trial. and am i right that you don't, that simply because the dendt is a presidential candidend he wants to speak on anything he wants to speak and he basically indiscriminately wants to post on social media, that there can be no restraint of his speech? because any restraint, no matter how tight in access to protecting a fair trial, is overcome by his campaign interests? >> i emphasize two things in response to that question. one, the speech at issue and the criminal trial are deeply intertwined. >> let's bring in former assistant u.s. attorney for the

district of columbia, glenn kirschner, nbc news legal analyst, and was in the courtroom during yesterday's hearing. >> glenn, how is that deeply intertwined, him insulting people, insulting judges, endangering clerks, him attacking everybody, attacking the process, how is that deeply intertwined with the judicial process inside that courtroom? >> you know, good morning, joe and mika. even if it is intertwined, it can be unravelled. in fact, trial court judges have not only the power but the responsibility to try to unravel it, to preserve the due administration of justice, to protect the witnesses, and, you know, donald trump's lawyer was essentially a one note wonder. he kept playing to his client and saying over and over again, like it was some magical incantation, because everything donald trump says and posts is core political speech in his estimation. there can be no prior restraint, no gag order, no limitation on

it. the judges weren't having it. both judge molette and judge garcia made identical observations. there is a clear pattern. donald trump says something, posts something, and witness threats follow. it seems pretty clear that it was a wholesale rejection of trump's lawyers' argument, and we're likely to see a somewhat narrower gag order approved by the appellate court than perhaps judge chutkan put in place in the first instance. >> right. >> let me ask about your feeling about where this goes with, let's say, a roberts supreme court. the roberts supreme court has been unsympathetic to donald trump on, certainly, any questions surrounding january 6th, most questions surrounding his appeals regarding criminal trials and civil trials against him. i'm curious, do you think that'd hold us here, that he would -- that the roberts court would, for the most part, defer to the trial court judge?

>> i think the roberts court is keenly interested in the due administration of justice, at least in as much as it applies to criminal trials. maybe not so much as it applies to their own financial conflicts and entanglements. i have long maintained, joe, that i don't think the supreme court is all that interested in doing anything that would facilitate the return to the oval office of an aspiing dictator. there is one thing an aspiring dictator has no interest in, a supreme court. perhaps an inferior court, inferior to the chief executive. so i think, you know, the supreme court has been holding in one respect. they have not given donald trump much play, right? they didn't even accept review of any of his election challenge cases. i think that this is one where the supreme court, if only by default, may get it right. >> if the gag order is narrowed,

how much of this decision is based on trump's past actions and violence that has been potentially or arguably or is being litigated as incited by him into violence? >> you think all of this is driven by the judge's recognition, the appellate court judge's recognition, that donald trump intends natural and probable consequences of his actions. donald trump knows precisely what he is doing, and he takes advantage of it. you know, his attorney, mika, said, "the only thing that you can prohibit are true threats." guess what? true threats already violate the federal law against witness intimidation. the judges kept saying, there have to be more restrictions that can be imposed, other than to guard against true threats.

i think you'll see the judges who struggled with the idea of, well, what about a public figure, bill barr, criticizes donald trump, shouldn't there be leeway for donald trump to respond, or must donald trump stand mute because barr is a likely witness in the trial against donald trump? the courts and the judges were struggling with that, but i think you're going to see something that is more narrowly tailored, that still protects the due administration, protects the witnesses, the court staff, and hopefully the appellate court judges appreciate the need to do this quickly. i think we may see something literally in the coming days or perhaps the next week or two from this appellate court panel. >> glenn, even once this gag order issue is resolved, in this tussle between the rights of the criminal defendant and the -- or the restrictions on a criminal defendant and the rights of a presidential campaign candidate, how many more fights are we

going to see of this nature around other things, scheduling, jury selection, that kind of thing? are we setting ourselves up for an election year of constant back and forth legal battles between donald trump and the courts? >> we're going to see endless fights, not only on issues of substance but issues of procedure and on issues of scheduling. because it is clear all along that donald trump's goal, his lawyers' goal, has been to delay, delay, delay. i was in the courtroom a couple months ago when this gag order was being argued in the first instance. donald trump's lead defense counsel urged the court to push the march 4 trial date. judge chutkan could not have been more definitive. "let me be clear, this trial date will not yield to a political cycle." i think, absent the supreme court perhaps getting its hands on one of these legal issues,

like double jeopardy or absolute immunity, both of which are laughable, and staying the trial court proceedings, i think this trial will proceed to jury selection beginning on march 4, which would mean we could see a verdict sometime in april. with a little luck, that may open the eyes of the, you know, folks who are still choosing to support donald trump in the light of a felony conviction. perhaps that begins to change the political landscape. >> legal analyst glenn kirschner, thank you very much for coming on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," we'll be joined by the former israeli ambassador to the united states. we'll discuss the ongoing hostage negotiations and much more. plus, a major show of support for ukraine from the biden administration amid fears that congress will significantly cut funding for the war-torn country. we'll go through that just ahead on "morning joe."

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beautiful shot of reagan national airport. >> sun is coming up over washington. >> the day before the busiest travel day of the year. >> it's already busy. >> yes, i know it is. >> it's going to be really -- >> i mean, if you're -- man, if you're traveling today or tomorrow -- >> it'll be a lot. >> -- godspeed. >> all right. >> okay. let's talk about the polls taken a year out from the election. i will say, they don't really mean anything on who is ultimately going to win, but if i were -- >> what are they, a snapshot into -- >> into where people are right now. if i were on the biden campaign or any campaign that got these polls, i'd love 'em because i would be using them to get everybody working from top to

bottom, get them working as hard as they can, to double their efforts on these areas that, you know, we've seen some softness, again, a year out. these are actually -- somebody said this yesterday, and i'm sure jim messina and others who come on this show would say the same thing, use these polls as a way to inspire your troops to work harder. >> yeah. >> work longer, campaign more. especially when you've got an autocrat running against you and nothing short of american democracy is on the line. if that can't inspire you -- >> i don't know what does. >> -- go into professional bowling. >> the polling showsresident biden is losing support among black voters. the white house is vowing not to, quote, make the mistake of underestimating a key group that helped propel biden to victory in 2020. in a new interview with nbc news, biden's principal deputy campaign manager acknowledged that, for the president to win again in 2024, his team, quote,

has to have a long, sustained conversation with african-americans in their communities and can't simply, quote, parachute in around election time. >> no. >> this comes after a recent survey from "the new york times" and siena college showed biden ceding support from black battleground state voters to robert f. kennedy jr. for more on that, let's bring in opinion editor at "the washington post," alexi mccammond. her latest piece is entitled, "democrats need to get real about rfk jr.'s strength with black voters." alexi, where is it coming from? >> hey, well, thank you so much for having me. i mean, i think what joe said is right. couple disclaimers off top. polls are not gospel. it is a year out. black voters are not a monolith. one thing that is clear in polling trends, focus group trends, and otherwise, is black voters and other voters are looking for an alternative. black voters have long felt and said and showed us that they

feel taken for granted by the democratic party. we've seen the ways in which vp harris hasn't been supported as much as some folks would like by the democratic party, by president biden. and the real kicker with rfk jr., and something that is particularly unique to him, is that he taps into this deep seeded, deep rooted, medical skepticism that a lot of black folks across the country feel, rightfully so. there has been medical racism going back, you know, to the 1800s through now. there is ample reason why folks might feel distrustful of their health care providers or of what the government is telling us what we can do with our bodies with respect to vaccines. that is not to say everything rfk jr. says about vaccines is appealing to black voters, but it brings up the idea of, maybe they're lying to you. maybe you shouldn't take this vaccine. he's trying to get at what other folks aren't saying to the

voters, which is, "i hear you. i see you. i understand why you might feel this way." >> rev, curious about your thoughts. i know you have a question for alexi. first, can you respond to that, about kennedy playing into a deep skepticism that a lot of members of the black community have of the medical community? >> no, he has definitely played into that, and there is definitely a skepticism, no matter how much we may feel that it is unfounded. people have real skepticism based on history, tuskegee experiment being one, about vaccines. robert jr. has played into that. he's also been one that has been a hero in the environmental movement, environmental racism, that many of us supported, has been raising that prior to his running. having said that, alexi, the fact that a lot of the bizarre stuff, both politically as well

as in terms of policy, that robert has brought out has not been confronted or counted by the biden administration. don't you think that some of what robert's growing popularity or growing support among some blacks is because he's not been challenged by the biden supporters on some of the things that he says that are completely out of line with the way a lot of blacks think? >> i think, yes and no. yes, when he was briefly running in the primary against biden, he was getting a lot of attention. we were all giving him attention for the things he was saying at private dinners and otherwise about vaccines, casting doubt on these things, and about some of the more outlandish views he had. that obviously dipped support with some democratic voters at the time. i think the smartest thing he's done is get out of that primary and run as an independent. it takes the heat off of him from the major parties.

i know that joe biden's campaign doesn't even really want to take him seriously. they think, and maintain, that voters will see this as a two-person race between biden and donald trump. everything suggests otherwise at this point. voters are looking for alternatives. they want it to be anyone but biden and trump. and i think that, you know, black voters are hearing a lot from rfk jr. about other things beyond vaccines, and i think that's the big issue. he's couching a lot of this stuff in terms of civil rights, as i'm sure you know, rev. he's also talking a lot like milei, who was just elected in argentina, this populist rhetoric that is painting a hopeful vision for the future. he's not really focusing on those other outlandish things. to your point, sure, maybe if democrats focused on those things, people would be more aware and maybe reconsider or think more holistically about who he is, but he's staying away

from those things and the biden campaign is considering him a nonstarter. >> jonathan lemire, first of all, there's the obstacle of robert kennedy jr. getting on the ballot in a lot of states. we'll see as we move forward whether he'll be able to do that or not. as an independent, he certainly has more time to clear the hurdles if he decides he wants to do that. but i find alexi's reporting fascinating because you actually have kennedy -- you have two stories here, the tale of two stories. one, he takes away from donald trump more than biden in many polls we've seen, despite the fact he takes one of the most critical electorates, takes a good chunk of one of the most critical electorates away from joe biden, which is black voters. of course, it is early. i suspect that what will happen this year is what happens every year, there could be a change. people come home, whether it's

young voters, whether it is people of color, all of these outlandish predictions i heard going into the 2020 election ended up being outlandish. i suspect the same will be true here. but the biden campaign does have to worry about this, don't they? >> biden campaign officials are deeply worried about third party candidates. though they don't want to give them much in the way of oxygen by talking about them, at least not now, believing many will drop out between now and when the ballots are actually cast. you're right, rfk jr. appeals to the conspiracy theorist group that draws from trump. yes, maybe black voters from biden. of course, he's not the only potential third party candidate. jill stein, cornell west, who might have appeal to black voters, and joe manchin is also considering getting in, maybe under the no labels banner. alexi, we know the third-party candidates are a threat, but there's also an issue about enthusiasm, particularly among voters of color. that's something the biden team has struggled with. you know, even in 2020, they ran

behind what previous democrats have done. you know, i think there are real concerns about this time around, as well. in terms of democratic officials you speak to, how worried are they? what can the biden team do to energize young voters, particularly young voters of color? >> yeah. i mean, the statements from the biden campaign folks show they're keenly aware of what they need to do, not take them for granted and not parachute in in the 11th hour. that is clear. i think the problem is a lot of this is baked in the cake. i mean, you look at the relationship between biden and vp harris. i know that a lot of black folks would have liked to see more support for her throughout this first term from biden and other democrats. that's something you can't really undo. biden also needs to give these folks a reason to be excited, a reason to vote for him. a lot of voters are sick of casting a throwaway ballot or what they say is a ballot for the lesser of two evils. that's one of the big differences between, i think,

2016, 2020, and 2024. i think especially after the covid pandemic, people feel much more individualistic. they're much more concerned about themselves than they are with group affiliation. that diminishes democratic party loyalty. that diminishes loyalty folks might have had to biden in the past, thinking he'd do the right thing. it's more than just saying the right thing. i think, lastly, vp harris has been the one, if you look at the same polls, who is keeping biden in the game. i mean, she's getting support with younger voters, with voters of color, these constituencies that they need to win to keep the coalition together. that was surprising from those polls. i know that a lot of folks, we were sort of thinking she wouldn't have a strong coalition, just as she didn't in 2020. but she's been going on the college campus tours and talking to these people the biden folks need to do a better effort putting biden in front of. >> opinion editor at "the washington post," alexi mccammond, thank you very much. nice work.

we appreciate having you on. still ahead, new details surrounding the hostage negotiations between israel and hamas. what israeli officials now say hamas wants in exchange for the release of 50 women and children. plus, npr's steve will join us ahead of his interview with benjamin netanyahu. also ahead, congress faces a fierce battle over aid for israel and ukraine. "morning joe" will be right back. that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first.

the sun sentinel is covering the school shooting anniversary in parkland, florida. a bipartisan group of lawmakers visited marjorie stoneman douglas high school yesterday.

they met with victims and families and promised to continue the push for gun safety legislation. "the star ledger" is reporting on a new rule in new jersey requiring all new cars sold in the state to be electric by 2035. the mandate filed by the department of environmental protection is part of a series of regulations aimed at enforcing emission standards. california was the first state to ban the sale of new gas-powered cars. finally, in rhode island, "the westerly sun" is noting a shift in holiday meal habits. >> really? >> following the growth in popularity of weight loss medications. >> really? >> experts and consumers alike say obesity drugs such as ozempic are easing anxieties about festive meals and shifting the way people think about food. >> really? >> many users have welcomed the shift in control over what they eat and how they eat.

>> jonathan lemire, i understand. i mean, new age, and i guess i need to be a modern man and stop being a man out of time, but i'm not going to let any ozempic medication or any of that other stuff stand between me and -- >> your stuffing. >> -- my thanksgiving turkey, duck, and chicken. tuderkin. you try the chicken, try the duck. i fry each one individually, then i double fry them again. right? is that what you do? >> that's how you do it. as much gravy as possible on top of all of it. >> yeah.

>> that's the plan. john madden reference with the turducken thanksgiving tradition, to be sure. to each their own. my thanksgiving eating strategy is one word, and that word is "more." more turkey, more stuffing, more potatoes, more pecan pie. >> exactly. >> coming up -- >> i tried frying the gravy. the whole thing blew up. it was ugly. coming up, not more of this. >> take us to break. >> we'll take a look at the presidential schedule. >> it's on youtube. i'll be having spinach. >> two firsts in u.s. history. >> couple slices of raw tuna, that's it. >> we have that and a lot more, straight ahead. >> that and a pint a day, if i ever get out of here. if i ever get out of here at bombas we make the comfiest socks, underwear, and t-shirts that feel good and most of all do good. because when you purchase one, we donate one to those in need. visit bombas.com and shop our big holiday sale.

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tradition pardoning liberty and bell, two turkeys. could have looked hip, ken and barbie. instead, they went with a reference from 1776. biden pardoned the turkeys. after being cleared, the turkeys posted an angry rant on truth

social, attacking their judge. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 21st. >> look at that. t.j. has painted up another extraordinary sunrise in new york. >> pretty, gorgeous. it is actually live. >> it's taken, of course, from the front yard of your rambling estate. >> not really. jonathan lemire, catzkatty kay, reverend al sharpton are still with us. as we launch the second hour, we'll start with donald trump's latest extreme remarks describing his political enemies as vermin that he vows to root out, sparking new fears about his authoritarian rhetoric. >> it's the lead story in "the new york times" today. >>yeah. this turn inward, accorng to "the new york times," has sounded new alarms among experts on autocracy who have long worried about mr. trump's praise

for foreign dictators and disdain for the ideals. the intensive focus on perceived internal enemies was a hallmark of dangerous totalitarian leaders, the paper continues. perhaps most urgently, they're wondering if the return to more fasct sounding territory is his latest provocation of the left, an evolution in his beliefs, or the dropping of a veil. "the times" says he will, quote, use the justice department to take vengeance on his political rivals, plotting a vast expansion of presidential power, and installing idealogically aligned lawyers in key positions to bless his contentious actions. you'll remember, early on in his campaign, i believe one of his key lines is, "i am your

retribution." >> right. >> he is his own retribution, and he is coming at this democracy. >> he is. he is. he's actually taking a second pass at it, jonathan lemire. the thing i think that disturbs so many people is, you know, the first time, he was incompetent at best in so many ways. in time. >> yes. >> this time, he has people plotting for him, putting lawyers in places where they can get things right when they want to short circuit democracy, when they want to make trump an authoritarian leader. he's planning that ahead of time. all the mistakes that he made, his advisors are figuring out. when i say mistakes, mistakes to him on overthrowing american democracy. he believes that if he gets a second shot at it, he's not going to miss the next time. he will take american democracy down and become an authoritarian

tyrant. >> yeah. there are two major differences between what a second trump term would look like and the first. the last time around, it was amateur hour in many ways. let's recall the first muslim ban early in the first week of his administration. it was clownishly written by steven miller and steve bannon, immediately tossed aside by the courts. he has a better team of people spending much more time working on things like that now. last time around, also, the last few years, there were guardrails, there were some adults in the room. john kelly, general mattis and the like. they're not going to be around this time either. this will be true loyalists, those who believe in everything donald trump does. what we saw at the end of the first term, the 2020 election and aftermath into january 6th, those are the people that will be empowered from day one this time around. we're seeing explicitly the plans they have in place on things like immigration, on their efforts to get retribution for his political opponents, and the former joint chief of staff

mark milley, who is one of those likely targeted by a second trump term, he's said publicly and privately, he feels if donald trump were elected again, the american experiment simply wouldn't make it. >> well, katty, that's the fascinating thing. whether you're looking at the january 6th hearings, looking at the people who are testifying against him in all of these cases, that, of course, donald trump and a lot of trumpists on the far right say are witch hunts, they're actually all trumpists themselves. all the people testifying against trump in all of these cases were all of his most loyal supporters that sat through muslim bans and sat through charlottesville and sat through two impeachments and stayed with him till the bitter end. they are the ones now testifying against donald trump, saying that a second trump term would be a grave threat to american democracy. >> yeah. do you remember during the trump

administration, we often wondered what it was like for the people who were inside and whether they said, well, we're going to stay inside because we feel we can do more good in terms of acting as guardrails in the trump administration, particularly kind of on the defense of military and security side. now, so many of those voices coming out, as they have done over the last six months, six months to a year, saying, john kelly being the latest, saying a second trump term really would be, you know, the collision of democratic values up against authoritarian values, and trying to warn the american public. i thought it was interesting, what kelly said, which is, i don't know what to do about that. i've tried to warn the american public, but i find that when i speak out, or somebody like jim mattis speaks out, actually, all that happens are trump's numbers rise. again, john kelly then becomes part of the establishment that is trying to get donald trump in the eyes of donald trump

supporters. kelly was saying, you know, i'm left in this awkward position. do i speak up? that could lead to a rise in support for donald trump. or do i keep quiet and not voice the concerns that i have from the inside about exactly what a second term might look like? i think it is also remembering, worthy thinking, because we need to think about what a second trump term would look like, and we're reporting around that, who would go into a second term? these are the people that went into a first term and were kind of called from the establishment, effectively, of american policy. but who is going into a second term? what would that mean a second term looks like? >> yeah. >> and if you want to see what that second term is going to look like, all you have to do is read what anne applebaum wrote in "twilight of democracy" during donald trump's first term, when she explained that with all these authoritarian leaders, you actually have

competence being replaced by loyalty. the incompetence is not a buck. like, authoritarian leaders want incompetent people running -- >> correct. >> -- their bureaucracies because their loyalty will override everything else. >> speaking of incompetence, by the way, beyond fascism, if you want women's rights, if you want women's health care regarding abortion access and other related women's health care, you're not going to get it. it'll continue to get worse for women. >> donald trump has bragged that he is the one who terminated roe v. wade. >> that's right. he and leonard leo did that. >> again, we're talking about a freedom that americans have had for 50 years. >> yeah. >> taken away by donald trump. here's the crazy thing, he's bragging about it. he is bragging about terminating the right of women to have

freedom over their bodies, over their life, over the most personal decisions that they can make. it is all about freedom, and donald trump is bragging about taking away that freedom. >> you have incompetent, dumb people surrounding trump and his trumpinsess. tommy tuberville gave an outlanding reason for blocking hundreds of military promotions, making us less safe. he suggested the pentagon isn't being clear about whether members of the military are getting abortion after birth. huh? >> it's been rape, incest, or health of the mom, but we ask in one of our hearings, you know, what month are you going to go by for the abortion? they couldn't tell us whether it was abortion after birth. i mean, these people can't communicate.

they have no clue what they're doing. they're just throwing something out there. >> mika, as you point out -- >> what was that? >> -- the people who come on our show and make things up about abortion well into the ninth month, and here, abortion after birth. by the way, there is an actual term for abortion after birth. are you ready? write this down, okay? it's called murder. abortion after birth is not abortion, it's murder. again, every time, every time these clowns get backed into a corner, they start lying. because they know the american people are against them. they know the overwhelming majority, over 70% of americans have been against the taking away or, as donald trump says, his termination of a woman's freedom, over 70% for decades now, if you look at gallup

polls. they start lying about this. oh, up until the moment the baby is born. it is such a lie, and this clown is doing it now. >> katty, i just wonder, like, what this coach is thinking. how dumb does he think people are? i don't just say women. there are a lot of men who support abortion and women's health care, as well. this isn't a week long schick to get clicks. he's been blocking military promotions for months, making us legitimately and literally less safe. i feel like these stupid comments he makes on stupid social media shows is just to sort of try and trigger us, i would say to women and men out there. don't get triggered, vote. don't get triggered, vote. don't respond to that idiot. i mean, he is an idiot. everybody in the senate wishes he would stop this, even some of his republican counterparts. >> i mean, most of his

republicans. >> i would say. but why don't they do something? quite frankly, he's not just being a dumb idiot. he is making our military less safe. >> that we're hearing from the military, right? they need these promotions in place, particularly at a time where america is facing supporting two different countries at war. you need to have these promotions in place. but on the abortion side of this, there is this myth, and it is a myth that is put out there by people who oppose abortions in the country, that, somehow, abortions rights campaigners want women to have abortions right up to, you know, the 40th week of their pregnancy. 90% of abortions in america are conducted in the first trimester. the other 10%, it tends to be when there is often a catastrophe that happens. >> right. >> nobody wants an abortion in the last trimester. nobody. nobody is campaigning for that. nobody is going out there saying, "please let women have

abortions at 38 weeks of pregnancy." 90% of abortions happen in the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. that's what we're dealing with. so it's kind of throwing a red herring in there. it is trying to make the debate something that it isn't, when you talk about, i don't know, joe is right, who is an abortion after birth? that's murder. that doesn't even happen. it's not a thing. >> it doesn't. >> it's just a red herring that's put out there to distract from the really critical issue, which is health care for women and for men and for couples around pregnancy in the first trimester and the second trimester of pregnancy. >> how many times do we need to explain it? >> yeah, it's worth putting the numbers out. >> you have to put the numbers out because, jonathan, you do have people, when they get desperate, when they get pushed into a corner, they understand 70%, 75% of americans are against them, they understand they're going to lose election after election after election after election because donald trump has, as he said, donald

trump has terminated the right of women to make a decision over the freedom of them, over their bodies, over their health care. so they understand. so they make things up like this, talking about murder, saying the pentagon can't tell us whether they're going to allow murder. i mean, again, just making it up. i guess he's thinking since he's losing the public, he's lost the state of alabama on this issue, he's lost republicans, he's going to go on some show and start lying to people about, like, the pentagon wanting to murder babies who were born? it's crazy. i've just got to say, though, the white house must love every time tommy tuberville goes on tv and starts talking. >> not sure that was tv. >> it's a political victory for them. >> no question there. we've heard president biden call out senator tuberville a few different times now. he's pretty loathe to target individual senators by name, out

of respect for institution. he was a long-time senator himself. that's not the case with tuberville, as he's blasted his efforts to weaken american military readiness. on the issue of abortion, we have seen donald trump and his team recognize, see all the losses republicans have taken because of abortion at the ballot box, and try to distance himself from his own efforts to install supreme court justices, who, of course, did away with roe v. wade. the biden team made it clear, they're not going to threat them. they feel abortion will be a signature issue in 2024, as well. we are seeing that effort ramp up already, tying trump to what happened at the supreme court. >> all right. we want to get to the latt in israel and the hostage negotiations. there is still no deal in place to release the people that are being held captive in gaza, but both sides appear optimistic an agreement will be reached soon. in a statement, the leader of hamas said they were, quote, close to reaching a truce

agreement with israel. no othdetails were provided the potential agreement involves a p in fighting for several days. during thattime, about 50 hostages, womennd children, would be released in exchange for the same number of palestinian women and children imprisoned inisrael. it iselieved about 240 people, inuding some americans, are being held captive in gaza. president biden remains optimistic a deal will be reached soon. >> mr. president, is a hostage deal near? >> i believe so, but i'm not prepared to talk -- >> you believe so? >> yes. >> thank you. how soon? >> i'm not prepared to talk about it. how soon? let's bring in the former israeli ambassador to the united states, michael oren. thank you for being with us. your thoughts on the possibility of an exchange of hostages? >> good morning, mika. good morning, joe.

you know, the optimism, you have to remember who we're dealing with here, hamas has never kept a cease-fire agreement. they don't negotiate in good faith. you know, the head of hamas is not one who is known for telling the truth. they're probably going to keep moving the football. they'll say they'll release 50 hostages, and maybe when the day comes, they'll release 40, maybe 30, and they'll see, we need another two weeks of cease-fire to move them. hamas wants the cease-fire because it means they win. they get away with mass murder, and israel loses. israel becomes -- large swaths will be uninhabitable. 250,000 israeli refugees internally won't be able to go back to their homes on the southern nor the northern border. to understand the whole situation, understand hamas needs the cease-fire. they'll do anything to get the cease-fire. they'll start, you know, handing out hostages. they'll also start producing bodies, guys. this is the hardest thing of all. we found two bodies of two women near that hospital. al shifa hospital.

they had been executed. this is a kidnapper spending -- sending back a finger or an ear. we know women have been raped multiple times. they'll come out and they they were raped, and they can't aform afford that in hamas. i'm afraid you'll see more bodies appearing. they're left for the israeli army to find. this is brutal, horrible situation. i'm a historian by training. i have never encountered a situation like this, for any government to decide in all history. it is beyond imagination. >> again, the women who have been raped and abused won't be released because they don't want the stories out there, just how horrific they've been. the very people who need help, medical care, psychiatric care the most are the very people who will probably end up dead because they don't want that story to get out. let me ask you generally, how do you negotiate with an entity whose very charter, whose

founding is based, not only on the obliteration of israel, but just the wanton killing of jews? how do you negotiate with an organization that basically stopped yasser arafat and the palestinian authority, as bill clinton said, from taking a deal for a two-state solution in 2000 that would have given them all of gaza, 97% of the west bank, some land in israel to compensate for the land they didn't get in the west bank, and the capital in east jerusalem? how do you negotiate with people that will never take yes for an answer because all they want to do, their entire life's mission, mind you, is to kill jews? >> thank you for reminding people of that. people forget how many palestinians have been killed by hamas. when hamas took over gaza back in 2007, they threw off the roofs of gaza, literally threw them off the roof, 600 palestinian officials and

policemen. it was a terrible massacre. yes, keep that in mind. listen, it is the equivalent of negotiating with isis or with al qaeda. it's the same deal. you can maybe reach a temporary cease-fire, but we've had many, many cease-fires in the past. every single one has been violated by hamas. at the end of the day, again, what they want is the cease-fire. they want a precedent of a cease-fire, then they want to expand that cease-fire so they can win. if they win, they get away with mass murder. it's as simple as that. then they get to rearm, regroup. they'll even use the five days to rearm and regroup and put more booby traps throughout gaza. when our soldiers get in, they'll kill more soldiers. the israeli government has to decide between a hostage life and a soldier's life, that horrible decision you have to make. they're operating on an assumption, that the more palestinian civilians who are killed, and i'm stressing this,

killed inadvertently by israel because hamas is hiding behind civilians and using them as shields, the more the palestinians are hurt, the international pressure on israel grows to get a cease-fire. so israel's interest is, of course, minimizing those damages, that damage to civilians, because israel needs to keep fighting. there's also a moral reason, we don't want to kill innocent palestinians. hamas wants us to kill them so they can get the cease-fire. it's this abhorrent logic of the conflict. it's soul crushing. >> ambassador, it is soul crushing. when october 7th happened, i came out that day saying how atrocious it was, to kill civilian civilian. some of my progressive friends got angry. i also don't like to see civilians and think it's horrendous what's happening in gaza. i think that one of the dilemmas that i want you to address is how you can be for both the

civilians on both sides, without, certainly, most palestinians are not hamas. many israelis don't agree with netanyahu. i mean, i've always been for a two-state solution. i don't agree with netanyahu, but i don't think what happened to israel is any way justifiable or explainable. i don't think that people in palestine -- you know, i was a mentee of jesse jackson when he negotiated hostage takers. here, you deal with a hostage situation where there seems to be a need for somebody to take a moral high ground, but you've got to be able to deal with people that have some kind of human feeling and don't care about getting their own people killed. how do we deal with those that are anti-netanyahu but really want to see this stop? how do you deal with that conflict? >> first of all, thank you for your support on october 7th. i remember very much the negotiation by reverend jackson. that was for several people.

this is 230 people, children, older people. it is inconceivable. this is what you say, and it'll sound simple but it is not. if you actually care about the palestinians, if you care about peace, you have to get rid of hamas. i've been involved in the peace process since 1993. i was an adviser at the beginning of the oslo process. any time there was progress for peace, hamas came out and blew it up. it's not like, you know, if you're in favor of hamas, you're in peace. if you're in favor of hamas, you're against peace is and doing something against the palestinians. if there is ever a chance for peace, as painful, as excruciating as this situation is, and no one wants to see palestinians suffer, we have to get rid of hamas, we do, for israelis and palestinians alike. >> former ambassador michael oren, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> we appreciate it. democratic senator chris coons of delaware joins us now. he is a member of the senate foreign relations committee and is a national co-chair of president biden's re-election

campaign. it's great to have you on, senator. >> senator, thank you so much for being with us. why don't we follow up first, before we great to politics, follow up with the conversation we had with the ambassador. what is your recommendation on how these negotiations should move forward? >> they're very close, and i'm so hopeful that for thanksgiving, dozens of families, including some american families, will get the good news that their loved ones are alive and are being released. but as former ambassador oren laid out, this is a very difficult negotiation. hamas is a terrorist organization and is playing for every inch of advantage they can get. but the anger of some of the hostage families at the government of israel came out into full view in recent days. they are insisting that they take the chance of a cease-fire, even though it'll allow hamas to regroup, just for the period required to get the hostages released. that will also allow in some humanitarian aid, some food and

fuel and medical supplies. i'm hopeful this will happen in the coming days. >> senator, there's real concerns, of course, about congress' inability to send funds to israel because of the chaos in the house of representatives. the republican-led house of representatives. that also applies to ukraine. i know you returned from a security conference in which that was front of mind. tell us, if you will, what kyiv is asking for and, frankly, the degree of alarm, both in europe and here, the united states is simply going to stop supporting ukraine. >> well, there's a small minority in the senate and a larger group in the house that want us to abandon ukraine. this is something former president trump has been encouraging. but president biden and the leaders in the senate, both republican and democrat, are rock solid in their support of ukraine. our challenge is that the president's supplemental request for funding, which would fund

ukraine, israel, critical humanitarian relief, and border security is held up in negotiations, to see whether or not we can come to an agreement, to make some policy changes around asylum law. we have to bear down, get this done, and get this supplemental passed soon. the brave ukrainians who are fighting as winter is coming are looking at losing the supplies they've needed for ammunition, for missiles, for drones, for defense, for armor, and we cannot possibly afford to abandon ukraine. if our republican colleagues demand too much in this negotiation, we won't be able to get it passed in the senate and then in the house. i think this would be a strategic mistake of catastrophic proportions, to let putinin in russia and in europe. >> senator, i want to talk about presidential politics, given your position with the biden

campaign. there is a growing school of thought that biden himself and democrats should take on trump more directly. do you agree with that? if so, how? >> that's a great question, mika. the election in argentina of a populist, far-right president who is spouting all sorts of things that remind us of the worst days of former president trump is a reminder that the far right is still very capable of electing populist leaders. some of the polls here in our country suggest that we should be concerned. what i am encouraged by is the midterm elections in '22 and the special off-cycle elections that just happened. the american people, when this choice is put clearly in front of them, do make this choice and make a choice in the direction of democracy, hope, and opportunity. i think that some of us who are out here as co-chairs of the campaign, as leaders in the democratic party, can and should

go more directly at president trump's -- former president trump's dangerous rhetoric and highlight the fact that a dozen of his closest, most senior aides, former members of his cabinet, have publicly said he is not fit to serve. president biden, frankly, is doing what he should do, focusing on leading and on governing. putting us in a stronger place on the world stage. deterring iran, deterring putin, standing by our close allies. here at home, delivering the results that we've already gotten done. the historic infrastructure plan, reducing prescription drug prices, investments in community mental health, greater safety for guns, and advances in combating climate change. when president biden has the chance to connect with people and to convey to them exactly how much we've gotten done, and some of us out here on the campaign trail are allowed to say, pointedly, what president trump, what sort of a threat he poses to our democracy and our

civilization, i think that's the right balance. i think at the end of the day, the american people see clearly this choice between the former president and the current president and will re-elect joe biden. >> democratic senator chris coons of delaware, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you, mika. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," a conversation on misinformation and the 2024 election. we'll discuss why many americans are falling for it and what can be done to slow the spread of falsehoods. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. shares the breakthroughs and makes with doctors and researchers worldwide so more kids with cancer everywhere can grow up to be whatever they want to be. tina was a star at her quinceanera. jordan is a high school track star.

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when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. 2024 will be listen election year full of nonstop lying. that will challenge the public's ability to discern the truth

like never before, with political misinformation and disinformation threatening the u.s. system of government itself. that is the dire warning from our next two guests. joining us now, research fellow at boston university, lee mcintyre. the author of the book entitled, "on disinformation, how to fight for truth and protect democracy." and m.i.t. professor of political science, adam berinsky, author of, "political rumors, why we accept misinformation and how to fight it." they were part of the university of presses, a week long celebration of the important work that university presses do in ensuring academic excellence and disseminating knowledge throughout the world, knowledge based on facts, of course. lee, i'll start with you. how bad is it going to get? >> well, i think it's going to

get pretty bad. i think it's already been pretty bad. disinformation has been a part of political campaigns for a while, but it seems to be ramping up. one of the problems is that people don't know that it's going on. >> adam -- go ahead, mika. >> i was just going to follow up with, how do they -- you say people don't know it's even going on. i mean, i'm seeing it all over the place. i can discern. i worry about the next and the next generation. so what exactly are you talking about when you say people don't even know it's happening? >> well, this is -- i think this is an important thing. i think that we always have to relentlessly draw the distinction between misinformation and disinformation. misinformation is an accident, but disinformation is a lie. sometimes i see a lot of journalists, a lot of other

folks using the term "misinformation" as a sort of euphemism. because, you know, it sounds like, you know, well, if you don't know it was intentionally, maybe it's not. but disinformation is intentional. once you know that something is disinformation, i think it is important to report on it that way. because if there is a lie, there has to be a liar. then you have to do the work of exposing the plot. disinformation is not an accident, it's strategic denial in a campaign, which borrowed from 70 years of science denial about climate change, about anti-vax, way back to the tobacco companies worrying about the link between smoking and lung cancer in the '50s. this has been done before the road map has been there. what's recent is that denialist road map was picked up by politicians who discovered they can use it, not just for science denial, but for reality denial. that's disinformation.

it's extremely dangerous. >> adam, disinformation and misinformation both real worries in the political landscape as we head into an election year. both, obviously, spread like wildfire on social media. yet, right now, we are seeing some of these social media companies roll back some of the protections they put in place after 2016, after 2020. twitter, x, elon musk, it is impossible to know what is real and what is not there these days. we've seen facebook,protections. how concerned are you about that? >> off the bat, i'll say i've done work for facebook and twitter when it was twitter, and google, as well. i think the important thing to remember is that there's people at tech companies who do really care about this. so i think that there are, you know -- there's been a lot of stories about how some of these guardrails are put into place or rolled back. you know, i think that there's

still a lot in place there. i think a really tricky thing is that as the media has become politicized and fact-checking has become politicized, you have a lot of republicans who don't trust fact-checkers. it becomes very difficult to have an external referee of sorts, to say, this is true, and this is false, and to have everyone believe that. i think that's really the larger issue. there is this climate of distrust, and the notion that experts can come in and say, you know, this is supported and this is not supportsupported, here's true and here's what isn't, and the american public just believes that, that is something that is not the case. that's really tricky. >> lee, on that point, how do you deal with the political contest in '24, where one of the candidates, we presume, will be donald trump whose whole campaign is based on misinformation, saying he really

won in '20, saying that he's a martyr and victim of the judicial system and he really did no wrong? how do you counter that without looking like you're just being partisan political in support for biden on the other side, when you're really trying to get people to deal with what is true and make their decisions based on truth, not based on whatever side they're on, when one side is clearly going to run on misinformation? >> well, again, i think that's disinformation because it's intentional. i think one thing to try to do is to point out that it is intentional. remember that the point of disinformation is not just to get you to believe a falsehood, it's to polarize you, to erode your trust in other people. disinformation is, at some level, about team building. you know, what trump is trying to do is to build this enormous

army of people who will believe anything that he says. but, remember, he's also polarizing the folks on the other side because he is trying to convince them that, you know, there's no reason for you to talk to anybody who disagrees with you. there's no reason to call it out. if you do, you're politically biased. people in the media, in particular, are particularly allergic to the idea of being accused of political bias, but that's another disinformation tactic, right? they want you to feel that way. they want you to be worried of those sorts of accusations so you don't call it out as a lie. i think the only way to fight disinformation is to expose the plot. who is behind it? who has something to gain by the lie? then just relentlessly report what the facts are. you know, i look at the journalists who are used to interviewing political dictators. you know, when they interview qaddafi, when they interview saddam hussein, i think that's

the kind of way you would have to interview trump. you have to understand, he's going to lie. he's going to misuse it. i think there's no benefit for using the word "misinformation" when what we mean is disinformation. if it is an intentional lie, we have to call it out as such. >> adam, you write a bit about the power of republicans or democrats, politicians calling out their own side when they see disinformation in their own party. what can the general public do? we're all getting a slew of this and i think everyone is trying to think, how can i -- what could i do to try and point out what's fact and what's not fact? >> yeah. i think what's really important, i talk about it in my book, is that we need to distinguish authorities who can determine whether or not something is true or false, supported or not supported. but to recognize that these independent authorities, these nonpartisan sources, aren't the best vehicle to deliver that message. i think fact-checkers are great. we need to have professionals

who determine whether or not something is supported by the evidence or not. but these aren't necessarily the best people to deliver that message because if you're, say, a republican, you hear a message saying that trump is telling lies. that can either, you know, sort of -- i can either not believe what trump is saying or i could not believe you, who is coming in and telling me this. the key is to have people who speak against their apparent interests. republicans, for example, who said that there were not death panels were more effective than nonpartisan sources or democrats. i think the media really needs to amplify these sources. i think it's not so much about individuals but the role the media can play, not in generating these sources, but that in terms of getting the message out that this is not true. >> all right. lee mcintyre and adam berinsky, thank you, both, for this conversation this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead, a federal

appeals court signals it could keep but narrow the gag order in donald trump's election case. what this now means for the former president. plus, the authors of the new book "black love letters" are live in studio for a powerful discussion celebrating black culture in all its forms. "morning joe" will be right back. and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ please be a phone, please be a phone. is it a phone? oh, it smells like a cat nip toy from chewy. that's not a phone. get up to 50% off black friday deals at chewy. this is better than toilet paper get black friday deals that deliver excitement, at chewy.

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when it comes to writer, maya angelou once said, the idea is to write it so people hear it and it slides through the brain and goes straight to the heart. this may have been what the editors had in mind when they created the new anthology entitled, "black love letters," a collection of letters and original illustrations that bring together a number of influential black figures to write to the people, places, and

moments that mean the most to them. joining us now, the book's co-editors, author and political commentator cole brown, and writer and illustrator natalie johnson. she's also responsible for the collections' original illustrations. she's also written for know your value, so i know this is good. natalie, i'll start with you. congratulations on this. >> thank you so much. >> well done. tell us about the concept of this book. what inspired it? >> so "black love letters" was based on a project of letters that i started in the spring of 2020 when the world felt like it was on fire. america was in this deep moment of pain and profound social isolation, and i wanted to create something for black people to come together and reflect on our deepest emotion. so i created this idea for a collection of letters, and i asked different black writers i

knew to write about, as you said, the people, places, and things that meant the most to them. as an illustrator, i responded to each of these letters and let them just sit adjacently to each other online. but it was really a moment to insist on our humanity when everything else was tells us otherwise. >> we should note that one of the authors in here, who penned one of these letters, the reverend al sharpton. >> yes. >> oh. >> i was very glad to do one of the letters. my colleagues here, joy reid is in. she wrote a letter as well as jonathan capehart. i think, cole, when you called me about doing this, you go through, who do you want to write it to? i landed on writing a letter to my grandson because i realized that growing up an activist, that i was in a generation that got to see their grandchild. >> yup. >> i only have one. whereas, many leaders two

generations ahead of me never lifted that long. martin luther king didn't live to see his granddaughter. i wrote to my grandson, what is ahead of him and what is expected of him. i think the beauty of the book that you and natalie put together is that all of us address love from a different way. >> yeah. >> explain how you kind of weaved all of that together, because some were romance, some were, you know, like me with coming from different vantage points. >> so i will. but just to respond to the first part, i will say, i remember the conversation we had about you writing to your grandson. i have to say, as someone that is known for his for his streng you to be vulnerable in this moment, was really powerful to me and frankly a conversation i won't soon forget. i think that what we were very intentional about and what you're referring to is trying to capture the breadth of black love.

we said write a love letter to whatever pulls at your heart strings. you chose your grandson. other people chose their hometowns, their grandmothers. it was very different. collectively, that is where the power comes from is the fact that we're vast and varied people, and we tried very much to present that to the world. >> yeah. and i must say my grandson's name is marcus. he already knows that. but let me ask you, natalie, what do you hope people that don't know the black experience will come away with after reading this book? because i think that, though it comes from a variety of black perspective, it's not a book just for black people. >> certainly. yeah. there's something really universal about it. obviously, a love letter to your mother or a love letter from a mother to their child, there's something that is so fundamentally human about all of

these letters that i hope that everyone can find a little piece of themselves in it. but at the same time, i really wanted this project to insist on our humanity, because we see the effects of dehumanizing black people from that moment in 2020 between ahmad arbery, breanna taylor, george floyd. we see the effects of dehewn anization, so we have no option but to exist on our humanity. >> an extraordinarily important moment. nicole, you mentioned the breadth of the subject matter. tell us about the authors. >> so many. obviously, we have the reverend al sharpton but also the founder of the me too movement, ben crump, the famed civil rights attorney, but also something that's a point of pride for us is we have lesser-known writers that needed a platform to stand on. and john level, who helped us publish the book, he's focused

on black love in so much of his work across his career, so not only did he help us publish but the forward, a beautiful letter to his wife, chrissy teigen. >> "black love letters" is out. thank you both very much. we really appreciate it. great job. congratulations. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> thank you. before we go to break, an update on the severe weather that's expected to hit much of the country this thanksgiving week. a powerful system will move east in the coming days bringing severe storms and strong wind that could affect travel plans for millions of americans. maggie vespa has the latest. >> reporter: this morning, with the thanksgiving travel rush ramping up, mother nature is impacting holiday plans with bad weather nationwide. a string of tornadoes hitting the gulf coast overnight. in central louisiana, a twister

spawning half-dollar-sized hail, while three people had to be rescued from a home destroyed by severe weather. south of jackson, mississippi, strong winds and drenching rain pummeled a highway, making driving dangerous. that weather system now heading up the east coast, new york city already issuing a travel warning, expecting wet and windy conditions in the big apple over the next 48 hours. for many, the timing couldn't be worse as they try to get home for the holiday. >> we got here three hours early and sleeping waiting for the plane. >> with the faa expect 2g.6 million people to fly every day this week. >> demand is growing. >> transportation secretary pete buttigieg telling tom costello storms could throw a wrench into the system. >> it will be especially important to build a little bit of cushion into your plans. >> the same advice applies on

the roads, with gas prices down almost 40 cents from a year ago, more than 49 million americans are expected to drive for thanksgiving, including katherine and jordan, traveling an hour outside chicago to see family. you're making the drive wednesday night. do you expect the roads to be busy? >> i do, especially because i'm going on 55, and typically that traffic is bad all the time. >> would you ever chance it and drive on thanksgiving? >> honestly, maybe, because it might be less busy. >> yeah. >> that was nbc's maggie vespa reporting. we'll stay on tom of that. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll go through the chaos within the company behind chatgpt after its board fired the co-founder. the co-founder

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by the way, it's my birthday today. i want you to know it's difficult turning 60. difficult. this is the 76th anniversary of this event. i want you to know i wasn't there for the first one. i was too young to make it up. these birds have new appreciation of the words "let freedom ring." >> president biden with some age jokes during the turkey pardon at the white house. meanwhile, his campaign is facing calls from democrats to become more active and aggressive against donald trump. speaking of the former president, we have a lot going on this morning.

we'll explain what happened yesterday in the gag order hearing for his federal election interference case. plus, republican senator tommy tuberville's latest outlandish reason for blocking hundreds of military promotions. >> he can't help himself. >> he intellectually degrades himself every single day. >> stop him before he humiliates hymn again. >> please, don't double down on dumb. also ahead, we ooh vel the latest on the hostage negotiations between hamas and israel, which appears to be centered on the pause in fighting in gaza. we'll have the very latest on that. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday. we're getting close to thanksgiving. we have jonathan lemire, u.s. special -- >> jonathan also spared in this ceremony yesterday, thank god. >> oh, right, yes. >> he was pardoned.

finally. >> he's not a turkey. >> i didn't say he was. >> oh, okay. u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. also with us, and president of the national action network, host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. >> does the pardoning and the forgiving and the blessing. >> yes, he does. kind of a grim note here. we have a lot to get to this morning, but donald trump's latest -- >> you're talking about the lead of "the new york times" today. >> i know. i have to say it's really important that -- we're talk about the possible ending of democracy, and it's really important these stories are in just about every day to, again, keep explaining to people so if they decide they want to throw away american democracy and go toward autocracy, they can never say they weren't warned. >> it's true.

donald trump's latest extreme remarks describing his political enemies as vermin that he needs to root out is sparking new concern about his authoritarian rhetoric, and that is the piece on the front page of "the new york times." it notes this -- "he has insinuated that the nation's top military general should be executed and called for the termination of parts of the constitution. if he wins back the white house, he has said he would have no choice but to imprison political opponents." the paper continues, "mr. trump's rise to power was almost immediately accompanied by debates over whether his ascendancy and that of other leaders around the world with similar political views signaled a revival of fascism. fascism is generally understood as an authoritarian far-right system of government which hypernationalism is a central

component. it also often features a cult of personality around a strongman leader, the justification of violence or retribution against opponents, and the repeated denigration of the rule of law, said peter hayes, an historian who has studied the rise of fascism." >> go down the list. people say it's not fascism, and then you go down the list of fascist tendenies of past fascist leaders, and he ticks it all off. >> right. >> except for one thing, and let's get to that. >> okay. fascist leaders appeal to a sense of victimhood to justify their actions. the idea is we're entitled because we've been victimized, cheated, and robbed. one expert tells "the times" that mr. trump had wielded language aeds a chisel to chip

away at democratic norms. normally, a president would use rhetoric to prepare a nation for war against another nation. donald trump used his war rhetoric domestically. >> and that, katty kay, is what's so frightening, that his focus is not in taking over other countcountries, it's in t over this country, undermining american democracy, undermining the rule of law, calling for the termination of the constitution, calling still for the arresting and imprisonment of his political opponents, something he did to me as a member of the media, something he did to the biden family the last two weeks of the 2020 campaign when he was yelling at his attorney general to arrest the entire biden family. but you look at it, and here it is, i mean, the frightening thing is there are far too many americans who seem disinterested

in the degradation not only of civility, not only of all of the character traits that their parents taught them growing up, that they learned in their communities, that they learned in their churches, but they seem completely disinterested in the fact that that leader they're following, well, he's an autocrat. he's talking like an autocrat, and he has promised them he is going to rule like an autocrat, arresting political opponents and deciding for himself what new shows stay on television and what new shows don't. >> over the last few years you've had a lot of trump supporters kind of hide behind this idea of seriously but not literally or literally but not seriously. it's all kind of a joke when he says this sort of thing. it's the press saying -- getting their hair on fire and saying

this all sounds very autocratic. but a couple conversations i've had recently with people close to the trump campaign, it's exactly that that they point to as one of the first things they'll do is this idea of political retribution and remaking the judicial system both to protect donald trump and to get vindication for perceived wrongs. when you ask, you know, what changes in trump's second term, the first thing i was told is mark milley goes to jail, then tony fauci goes to jail. it is this idea of using the system of government to defend one person. i mean, you know, literally subverting the whole of government to do that and taking the justice department kind of inside the white house. i think this was in "the washington post" just this week, it's now time to take him both seriously and literally because the plans are there. i mean, the plans are already being laid out. and the number of historians who are now students of autocracy, who are saying you need two

things for an autocratic regime to thrive, one, the normalization of violence in kind of language, and we have seen some of that happening, and then the denigration of your opponents and treating them as not human, words like vermin, for example. so you have got this kind of toxic situation at the moment where the groundwork is being laid from the campaign but also from trump supporters to create a situation where it's normal to think of using violence somehow to justify political ends. then it doesn't take very long for that to start spiraling out of control, and both sides start seeing that as something that is justified. >> and, jonathan lemire, it's what we heard from people that were i guess just too offended or maybe perhaps too delicate to call a fascist a fascist or to call fascism fascism. for years people said, but we don't have the violence component. despite the fact donald trump threw out the first campaign

time and again kept saying beat the hell out of my opponents and i will pay your lawyers' fees, praising a congressman for beating the hell out of a news reporter for asking a question about health care reform, charlottesville, good people on both sides, trying to justify that. january 6th then comes. there's really no ambiguity there. it's like mussolini going after government buildings with violence, taking them over with violence on his rise. we have january 6th. we have the example of paul pelosi, a guy -- a speaker of the house's husband, speaker of the house that he calls deranged and crazy and all these other things, dehumanizes, and then he still -- he still revels in an 82-year-old, 83-year-old man having the hell beaten out of him. the violence component of fascism is there. i want to go through again this

"new york times" article. let's just go through them because it's time that fascism is called fascism and americans know exactly what they're voting for. i've heard people pooh-pooh this and go, oh, people on the far left -- no. i'm a conservative. there's been conservatism, radicalism, and fascism. this is fascism. this is -- "the times" quotes an expert on the topic. this is boilerplate stuff, really, for what it is. "fascism is generally understand as an authoritarian far-right system of government in which hypernationalism is a central component." check. "it also features a cult of personality around a strongman leader." check. "the justification of retribution or violence against opponents." check. "and the repeated denigration of the rule of law." check. said peter hayes, an historian. "past fascist leaders appeal to

a sense of victimhood to justify their actions." check. "we're entitle because we've been robbed, we've been victim eylesed, we've been cheated and robbed." check, check, check. the whining, the snowflakery coming from the trump people. a snowflake falls on their shoulders and they're victimized. they're victimized by history books on hank aaron. they're victimized by kids' books on roberto clemente. they're victimized by tweets. you name it. they are victimized by everything. they are such weak snowflakes. and they're using that victimization to justify violence against their opponents, jonathan. >> yeah. this is such an important conversation to call out what we're seeing clearly and plainly. it reminds me of 2015, 2016, a lot of media organizations

struggled to characterize some of the things he was saying, would come up with phrases like racially tinged, instead of eventually where we got where we simply called things racist when they were racist. i think that's where we are now, too, where it's time to say these things are fascist. use the word. we've been doing it on this show for a while. but it seems like media organizations are starting to do the same and make clear what is happening here, what trump has done before, and what is he's threatening to do. i was at a journalism conference over the weekend. we talked about how we should be approaching this campaign as journalists, how we should say he is an insurrectionist candidate. yes, while of course there will be focus on the day-to-day developments, focus on polls and policy, one thing that i said there, and we endorsed as a panel, we need to focus on the stakes of this election. it's not just the day-to-day

events. this is the stakes. frankly, the stakes are democracy itself. when we hear donald trump put forth his plans for what a second term would look like and embrace this fascist rhetoric and policy. >> right. >> another thing that fascists do is they obliterate norms, and in trump's case, he's coming at this country with so many different problems, with so many different -- whether it be racist, fascist, cruel, just sick tendencies that you can't keep up with it. and you pointed out one, quite frankly, recommend tifly -- shouldn't be -- small example. the paul pelosi example, where he was brutally attacked by a man inspired by trump in his home. i just want to put a frame around this. he's still making fun of it, insinuating it was coming to him and there was something with his life that this is a guy who was inspired by trump, who broke into his home and beat him. i believe with a hammer.

>> yeah. >> and imagine, i don't know, when steve scalise was shot. >> mm-hmm. >> if any one person -- >> not just any one person. if barack obama -- >> anybody. >> let's -- this isn't somebody on a back bench. this is the leader of the republican party. so, it would be as if barack obama continued mocking steve scalise for getting shot while practicing baseball for years into the future. my god. what would happen to the press? what would republicans say? there would be rightfully a meltdown. now there's silence because this is donald trump, who is glorifying the beating up of an 82-, 83-year-old man. >> and the republicans who don't speak out to that and the people in the audiences, i'm sorry. that's not funny. >> they're propping it up. >> you are failing this country,

and you will only find out when it's too late, when you realize that a moment for a laugh or, oh, he's just kidding and glossing over all of this, has been at the peril of the united states. it's not an exaggeration. it's not hyperbole. it's not overstating it. this is where we are. when you let a man behave that way. >> right. >> when you look at these cases that he's dealing with in the courts, i know the law moves slowly, but there are even concepts and conversations about, you know, special treatment for this former president because he is a former president. i think all of that happens at our peril. at some point, this man must face accountability or we all suffer. >> it certainly does. and people in the media have a responsibility to really tune out the voices of the haters, of the people that are constantly. double and triple checking.

somehow they're being biased, bending over backwards, treating him like a normal candidate. he's not a normal candidate. he is running to end american democracy as we know it. he's an authoritarian who a court in colorado two days ago ruled that he led an insurrection against the united states government. he's charged with leading schemes to help overthrow the united states government. so, if they want to frame it that way, that's fine. if you want to be fair, then you will frame this as joe biden being the candidate that supports american democracy and donald trump a candidate who supports a new form of government here that's authoritarian. it's really that sample. reverend al, when people go, oh, you can't compare him to the past nazi leaders, you can't compare him to this past nazi leader or that past fascist leader because he hasn't done -- well, what hasn't he done?

he hasn't done the things that the american judicial system did not allow him to do last time but may very well allow him to do this time or a judicial system that will be ignored by donald trump and ran over by donald trump to create the greatest constitutional crisis of our lifetimes. just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean he won't do it when he gets a chance to do it. if he is voted into office, then a lot of these people that are talking about literal or figurative or whatever the hell they're saying, you're going to look like idiots because he will do, he will get away with, he will imprison, he will execute whoever he's allowed to imprison, execute, drive from the country.

just look at his past. it's not really hard to read. again, the only thing that stood between him and the destruction of american democracy was the federal judiciary. >> no doubt about it. and i think that when we talk about framing this race, he has framed it. he has said out loud what you and i and others that have known him have been trying to say for a long time. he says let's remove all doubt. this is what i'm about. when they say you can't compare him to past dictators, he's embraced present dictators. he was a sitting president talking about writing love letters to the dictator in north korea. he had kind words to say about dictators all over the world. we're not taking him out of context or interpreting him. and let's remember, joe, when you talk about he and "the new york times" talks about him saying that he would go after

his opponents and his critics and try and criminalize them and prosecute them, this is a man that sat in the white house and watched for hours an insurrection he incited like he was watching some drama that he was addicted to. he enjoyed it. you don't think he was sitting in the white house and watching his opponents being arraigned in court, eating popcorn and enjoying it? that's who he is. it's not about framing it. it's about accepting the framing he's given himself. if somebody tells you that's who they are, that's who they are. stop trying to put a different frameugly picture. >> liz cheney always said the most chilling thing about donald trump's behavior on january 6th

was that he was going back and forth with his dvr and rewinding and watching in the oval office the most violent parts of the attacks while his friends -- well, he has no friends -- while his acquaintances, while his family members -- >> employees. >> -- all of his lawyers, everybody in the white house was telling him call it off, he was rewinding, rewinding the most violent parts of the riots, the part where is the police were getting bludgeoned and brutalized, and watching it gleefully over and over again. going back to "the new york times" article, i want to read one part that reverend al just basically referenced. again, so shocking that it's from people that used to be -- well, that are members of a party i used to be a party of in another lifetime. >> you don't recognize. >> let me read this. "crowds at mr. trump's events

have generally affirmed his calls to drive out the political establishment and destroy fake news media. supporters do not flinch when he praises leaders like mr. orban, xi jinping of china, and vladimir putin of russia." these very people, these very dictators, the most bloodthirsty dictators on the face of the earth are the very people donald trump praises the most, and crowds in iowa and new hampshire and south carolina in the republican party cheer his praises of the worst dictators on the face of the earth. >> that's always been one of the most, you know, odd things about the republican party's following of donald trump on this, in this way, because this is the party that -- you know, i'm thinking george w. bush just very

recently in american history, ronald reagan, of course, much more forcefully taking on authoritarian regimes. i mean, bush's second inaugural address was all about how america would stand up for people who were promoting human rights and democracy around the world in the face of authoritarianism. it wasn't that long ago that the republican party saw itself as the global champion of democratic rights. and the voters in the republican party, the people who would call themselves rank-and-file members of the republican party, were firmly on the side of taking on autocracy and autocrats. they will have seen vladimir putin as america's enemy, xi jinping as america's enemy, certainly kim jong-un as america's enemy. that's been the shift almost that's most remarkable in the ideology of the rank and file of the republican party as it follows donald trump wherever he wants to go. coming up, a rare look

inside an israeli command center. nbc's keir simmons has new reporting on a controversial weapon being used in that country's war against hamas. s cd by a terrorist massacre. warning civilians to clear out, while hamas forces them back. allowing in food and water, which hamas steals.

a three-judge panel on the u.s. court of appeals looks poised to at least gnash row the gag order against former president trump in the federal elections interference case. trump's defense team had argued that the gag order, which stops the former president from discussing witnesses and prosecutors in that case, they believe it violates his constitutional rights. nbc news is reporting that the judges didn't immediately iue a cision, but they indicated in their questioning that they could leave the gag order in

place while narrowing its scope. the panel questioned the trump team's argument that the former president's speech could not be pared back at all, regardless of possible threats, simply e he's a presidential candidate. >> i don't hear you giving any weight at a to the iert in a fair tria andm i right that youdon't? that sim becse the defendant is a presideia candidat a he wants to speak on anything he wants to speak and he basically indiscriminately wants the post on social media, that there can be no restraint of his speech because any restraint, no matter how tight to protecting a fair trial, is overcome by his campaign interests? >> two things in response to that question. one is that the speech at issue in the criminal trial are deeply

intertwined. >> let's bring in former assistant u.s. attorney for the district of columbia glenn kirschner, and nbc news legal analyst and was in the courtroom during yesterday's hearing. >> how is that deeply intertwined, him insulting people, insulting judges, endangering clerks, attacking everybody, him attacking the process? how is that deeply intertwined with the judicial process inside that courtroom? >> you know, good morning, joe and mika. even if it is intertwined, it can be unraveled, and, in fact, trial court judges have not only the power but the responsibility to try to unravel it to preserve the new administration of justice, to protect the witnesses, and, you know, donald trump's lawyer, john sauer, was essentially a one-note wonder. he kept playing to his client. he kept saying over and over again, like it was some magical incantation, because everything donald trump says andposts the

for political speech in his estimation, there can be no restraint, no gag order, no limitation on it. and the judges weren't having it. both judge mow let and judge garcia made identical observations. they said there's a clear pattern here -- donald trump says something, posts something, and witness threats follow. so, it seems pretty clear that it was a wholesale rejection of trump's lawyer's argument, and we're likely to see some sort of a somewhat narrower gag order approved by the appellate court than perhaps the judge put in place in the first instance. >> let me ask you your feeling about where this goes with say a roberts supreme court. the roberts court has been very unsympathetic to donald trump on certainly any questions surrounding january 6th, most questions surrounding his appeals regarding criminal trials and civil trials against him. i'm curious, do you think that

would hold up here that the roberts court would for the most part defer to the trial court judge? >> i think the roberts court is keenly interested in the due administration of justice, at least inasmuch as it applies to criminal trials, maybe not so much as it applies to their own financial complex entangentangl. i have long maintained that i don't think the supreme court is all that interested in doing anything that would facilitate the return to the oval office of an aspiring dictator because there's one thing an aspiring dictator has no interest in, and that is a supreme court. perhaps an inferior court, inferior to the chief executive. i think supreme court has been holding in one respect. they have not given donald trump much play, right. they didn't even accept a review of any of his election challenge cases. so, i think that this is one where the supreme court, if only by default, may get it right.

>> so, if the gag order is narrowed, just how much of this decision is based on trump's past actions and violence that has been potentially or arguably or is being litigated as incited by him into violence? >> you know, i think all of this is driven by the judges' recognition, the appellate court judges' recognition that donald trump intends the natural and probable consequences of his action. that is what made an appearance during yesterday's appellate court argument. donald trump knows precisely what he's doing, and he takes advantage of it. his attorney, mika, said the only thing that you can prohibit are true threats. well, guess what, true threats already violate the federal law against witness intimidation. so the judges kept saying there have to be more restrictions that can be imposed, you know,

other than to guard against true threats. so, i think you're going to see the judges who struggled yesterday with the idea of, well, what about if a public figure like bill barr criticizes donald trump? shouldn't there be some leeway for donald trump to respond? or must donald trump stand mute abuse bill barr is a likely witness at the future trial against donald trump? and the courts and the judges were struggling with that, but i think you're going to see something that is more narrowly tailored that still protects the new administration of justice, protects the witnesses, potentially protects the court staff, and hopefully the appellate court judges appreciate the need to do this quickly. so i think we may see something literally in the coming days or perhaps the next week or two from this appellate court panel. >> once this gag order issue is resolved in this kind of tussle between the rights of the criminal defendant or the restrictions on a criminal defendant and the rights of a

presidential campaign candidate, how many more fights are we going to see of this nature around other things? scheduling, jury selection, that kind of thing. are we setting ourselves up for a kwhoem election year of constant legalback and forth battles between donald trump and the courts? >> we're going to see endless fights not only on issues of substance but on issues of procedure and on issues of scheduling, because it's clear all along that donald trump's goal and his lawyers' goal has been to delay, delay, delay. you know, i was in the courtroom a couple of months ago when this gag order issue was being argued in the first instance, and when donald trump's lead defense counsel urged the court to push the march 4th trial date, the judge could not have been more definitive when she said, let me be clear, this trial date will not yield to a political cycle. so, i think, absent the supreme

court perhaps getting its hands on one of these legal issues like double jeopardy or absolute immunity, both of which are laughable, and staying the trial court proceedings, i think this trial will proceed to jury selection beginning on march 4, which would mean we could see a verdict sometime in april, and with a little luck, that may open the jais e the eyes of tho supporting trump with a conviction, and that perhaps begins to change the political landscape. >> glenn kirschner, thank you very much. coming up, one of our next guests just sat down with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. we'll have that and the three things israel is committed to doing in gaza. --

>> a snapshot of where people are right now. but if i were on the biden campaign or any campaign, they've got these polls, i'd love them because i would be using them to get everybody working from top to bottom, working as hard as they can to double their efforts on these areas that, you know, we're seeing some softness again a year out. so, these are actually -- somebody said this yesterday, and i'm sure jim messina and others would say the same thing -- use these polls as way

to inspire your troops to work harder. >> yeah. >> work longer. campaign more. especially when you have an autocrat running against you and nothing short of american democracy is to on the line. if that doesn't inspire you -- >> i don't know what does. >> -- go into professional bowling. >> the white house is voting to, quote, not make the mistake of undereps mating a key group that helped propel bide on the victory in 2020. in a new interview with nbc news, biden's principal deputy campaign manager acknowledged that, for the president to win again in 2024, his team, quote, has to have a long, sustained conversation with african americans in their communities and can't simply, quote, parachute in around election time. >> no. >> this comes after a recent survey from "the new york times" and siena college showed biden's

support from black battleground state voters to robert f. kennedy jr. let's bring in alexi mcgahnand. her latest piece, "democrats need to get real about rfk's strength with black voters." where is it coming from? >> thanks for having me. what joe said is right. disclaimers, polls are not free of error. but what's trending is black voters and other voters are looking for an alternative. black voter have long felt and said and showed us that they feel taken for granted by the democratic party. we've seen the ways in which vp harris hasn't been supported as much by the democratic party or joe biden. the real kicker with robert f. kennedy junior is that he taps

into this deem-seated, deem-rooted, medical skepticism that a lot of black folks across the country feel rightfully so. there has been medical racism going back to the 1800s through now. there is ample reason why folks might people distrustful of their health care providers or what the government is telling us we should do with our bodies with respect to vaccines. that is not to say that everything rfk jr. says about vaccines is directly appealing to black voters, but when he brings up the idea that maybe they're lying to you or maybe you shouldn't take this vaccine, he's really trying to get at what other folks aren't saying to these voters, which is i hear you, i see you, i understand why you might feel this way. >> rev, curious about your thoughts. i know you have a question for alexi. but first, can you respond to that about kennedy playing into the deep skepticism that a lot of the members of the black community have of the medical community? >> no.

he has definitely played into that, and there is definitely a skepticism no matter how much we may feel that it is unfounded. people have real skepticism based on history, the tuskegee experiment being just one about vaccines, and robert junior has played into that. he's also been one that has been a hero in the environmental movement, environmental racism that many of us supported his raising that prior to his running. but having said that, alexi, the fact that a lot of the bizarre stuff both politically as well as in terms of policy, that robert has brought out, has not been really continue fronted or count earned by the biden administration. so don't you think of some of what robert's growing popularity or growing support among some blacks is because he's not been

challenged by the biden supporters on some of the things that he says that are completely out of line with the way a lot of blacks think? >> i think yes and no. yes, because when he was briefly running in the democratic primary against biden, he was getting a lot of attention. we were giving him attention for the things he was saying at private dinners and otherwise about vaccines, casting doubt on these things, and about some of the more outlandish views he had. and that obviously dipped support with some democratic voters at the time. i think smartest thing he's done is get out of that primary and run as an independent, because it takes the heat off of him from the major parties. i know that joe biden's campaign doesn't even want to take him seriously. they think and maintain that voters will see this as a two-person retail sales between biden and donald trump. everything suggests otherwise at this point, that voters are looking for alternatives, that they want it to be anyone but biden and trump, and i think

that, you know, black voters are hearing a lot from rfk junior about other things beyond vaccines, and i think that's the big issue. he's couching a lot of this stuff in terms of civil rights, as i'm sure you know, rev, and also talking like this populist rhetoric and not focusing on those other outlandish things. to your point, sure, maybe if democrats focused on those things people would be more aware and maybe reconsider or think more holistically about who he is, but he's really staying away from those things, and the biden campaign so far is sort of considering him as nonstarter. >> jonathan lemire, first of all, there is the obstacle of robert kennedy junior getting on the ballot on a lot of states. we'll see as we move forward whether he'll be able to do that or not. as an independent, he

certainlily has more time to clear this v the hurdles if he desides he wants to do that. i find alexi's reporting fascinating because you have two stories here, a tale of two stories. one, he takes away from donald trump more than biden in many polls that we've seen, despite the fact he takes one of the most critical electorates away from joe biden. that is black voters. of course it is early. and i suspect that what will happen this year is what happens every year. there can be a change that people come home, whether it's young voters, whether it's people of color, all these outlandish predictions i heard going into the 2020 election ended up being outlandish. i suspect the same will be true here. but the biden campaign does have to worry about this, don't they? >> the biden campaign officials are deeply worried about

third-party candidates, although they don't want to give them much oxygen by talking about them. they believe many of them will drop out before the ballots are cast. maybe black voters from biden -- and he's not the only potential third-party candidate. jill stein, cornel west, joe manchin is also considering getting in maybe under theels b. alexi, third-party candidates are a threat, but is there enthusiasm among voters of color? that's something the biden team has struggled with. in 2020, they ran behind what previous democrats had done. i think there are real concerns about this time around as well. in terms of democratic officials you speak to, how worried are they? and what can the biden team do to enner jitz young voters, plarply those of color? >> yeah. the statements from quentin

focus and others are clear, not take them for granted and parachute in in the 11th hour. a lot of this is sort of baked in the cake. you look at the relationship between biden and vp harris, and a lot of black folks would have liked to have seen more support for her from biden and other democrats. that's something you can't undo. biden needs to give these folks a reason to be excited, a reason to vote for him. and a lot of voters are sick of casting a throw-away ballot, one for the lesser of two evils. coming up, "new york times" columnist nick krzysztof has a new piece that could come in handy this holiday season.

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time for a look at the morning papers. the south florida sun sentinel is covering a congressional visit to the site of the 2018 school shooting in parkland, florida. a bipartisan group of lawmakers visited marjory stoneman douglas high school and met with victims and families and promised to continue the push for gun safety legislation. the "star ledger" is reporting on a new rule in new jersey requiring all new cars sold in the state to be electric by 2035, the mandate filed by the department of environmental protection is part of a series of regulations aimed at enforcing emissions standards. california was the first state to ban the sale of new gas-powered cared. finally, in rhode island the

westerly sun is noting a shift in holiday meal habits following the growth in popularity of weight loss medications. >> really? >> experts and consumers say obesity drugs such as ozempic are easing anxieties about festive meals and shifting the way people think about food. coming up, claire mccaskill reflects on the new polling from nbc news heading into the election. she'll weigh in on that. she'll weigh in on that.

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beautiful shot of los angeles. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire, katty kay and reverend al sharpton are still with us. joining the conversation, former u.s. senator, now an msnbc news political analysis, claire mcca fighting is ramping up in northernaza with officials at a major hospital there reporting bombing and gunfire around the medical fali. even as this battle rages, both sides, we are hearing, are nearing a possible deal to release some of those held

captive in the territory. ltiple news reports say the potential agreement could include a multiday ceasefire with at least 50 israeli and international hostages freed in waves. in exchge, palestinian women and children detained in israel would be released. >> now from tel aviv, keir simmons. what do we know? >> reporter: things are moving fast. we hear from a diplomat with knowledge of the talks that an announcement of a deal may be imminent. just in the past few minutes, the israeli government announcing, in light of the developments regarding the release of our abductees, the prime minister will convene a war cabinet at 6:00. it's now 4:00 here in tel aviv.

the government meeting at 8:00 is perhaps most important. that is likely to involve a vote. if a deal is on the table and hamas has been saying through this morning and into last night that it believed a deal was ready to be agreed. if that deal is on the table in that cabinet meeting -- and that message seems to suggest that's what they're gathering to talk about, and there's a vote, that may be the israeli government going ahead with that. this is reporting from multiple news organizations, citing both hamas and the israeli government sources. so putting the two together, we're hearing something like more than 50 hostages released in waves initially, likely more

after that, a multiday ceasefire, maybe four to five days. there will also likely be the question of humanitarian aid, likely to be fuel too. a number of other questions are being talked about, including whether drones fly over southern gaza. after weeks of difficult negotiations with enormous hurdles, we are very, very close right now. qatar, which of course mediates these talks and would likely announce a deal, saying a few hours ago, we do not have a final agreement yet, but negotiations have reached a critical and final stage. we can always say until it's done, it's not done. that's what the administration has been saying overnight.

but i think we're closer than it's ever been to the possibility we'll get an announcement imminently. >> keir, this is so excruciating especially for the families involved. what are some of the ways this could go or what could actually prevent this from happening at this point? how close are we? is there any type of timeline that you can imagine? >> reporter: well, the issue is -- and as you guys know, i've been reporting on this since october 7th. the issue is on a number of occasions i've seen a great deal of enthusiasm only for it to not pan out that way. i think people are being very careful at this stage to get to the finish before any kind of announcement. things can always fall down and not least, of course, just the

scheduling of things, who's released, when, when does the humanitarian aid come in. that in itself can be an issue in negotiations like these. i will say this. there's clearly been huge pressure from the administration. we're days away from thanksgiving. there is always a political dimension to these things, and you can imagine that in the administration after some difficult days that there will have been a real push to try and get something before thanksgiving. hostages released around thanksgiving is going to be a really positive message, isn't it? >> yeah. nbc's keir simmons live in tel aviv, thank you very much for the latest there. joining us now, the host of "morning edition" and "up first" on npr, steve inskeep.

>> does benjamin netanyahu acknowledge that his days may be numbered, or is he just the bibi of old? >> not at all does he acknowledge that. he's a survivor. he's survived multiple elections, even elections where his party didn't do very well. he's putting off all questions until after the war, whenever that might be. he's certain to be thinking longer term and even longer term than the israel-palestinian conflict, even though in my conversations with him it's clear he doesn't have a path to end that conflict soon. >> was there any acknowledgment that his mishandling of the west

bank, that his obsessive focus on winning the votes of religious extremists and pushing illegal settlements took his eye off the ball in hamas and actually led to the terror of october 7th? and any suggestion moving forward he may understand the need for a two-state solution? >> no acknowledge that his particular strategies would have caused a problem. he's pushed all of that into the future. but the two-state solution is really interesting to think about. i've had an opportunity to talk with netanyahu a number of times over about a decade. in the early part of that, he was making grudging statements about a two-state solution. he doesn't even do that now. he says, i say it openly, we are not offering equal status for palestinians. i'm willing to talk about something less than a fully

independent palestinian state. israel needs to have security control. this is, i think, reflective of an attitude that a lot of israelis have that the conflict is not necessarily solvable, that it is a permanent or almost a permanent condition. so their goal is to get to the next phase to keep things going and not to buy into a solution that they don't believe would secure them. >> steve, let's play a sound bite from the interview. you did ask about israeli sentiment. >> what do you say to those israelis whose faith in you was destroyed? >> i can israel is united today as never before, and my government is united. i called in a significant part of the opposition that heeded my call. we formed a unify government. my war cabinet is united. we're committed to three things, destroying hamas, returning our hostages and assuring a different future in gaza,

different from the one that we had before. >> what was your take from his answer, steve? >> i think people are unified on those particular things, but they tend to be negative things. get the hostages back, that's very important and vital for many people. destroy hamas, that's something many see as essential after the brutal attack on october 7th. where israelis are not necessarily united and where netanyahu has not been clear about israel's plans is what to do with gaza afterwards, who's to run the place. he doesn't necessarily want israeli troops there. they don't want to be reoccupying gaza in a formal official sense in the way they have in the past. they would like some palestinian civilian government of some kind, but they don't obviously accept hamas, and they don't accept the palestinian authority either. they don't want the palestinian authority back in power.

that doesn't really leave anybody. there is not really a long-term strategy here. we're at a moment when we just heard strong reporting about the possibility of a ceasefire of a few days, but we do not have any visibility about where this is going afterward in the long-term. >> some news here from u.s. officials just in. the timing of the pause could be announced as soon as later today. it could be up to four or five days in exchange for potentially a couple of dozen hostages. it seems there's real pressure here on the israeli government to bring forth this pause to get these hostages out. some of that is from the white house. >> the pressure from the families is extraordinary. i interviewed one of the families when i was recently in

israel. when you leave the airport in tel aviv, you see a row of the photos of the more than 200 people taken hostages. you have families saying what is the point of israel if israel cannot protect my family who has been taken hostage. that pressure was intense. the pressure from the united states was intense. i had an opportunity to talk with an israeli military strategist when i was there a couple of weeks ago. the way this person described israel's approach is, we have a strategy, we want to continue forward with destroying hamas. we realize there are all these other pressures to stop and our goal is to manage those pressures in a way that we can continue the campaign. israel will yield where they have to, but they want to continue that campaign against hamas as soon as possible. >> steve, i'm curious if you get

a sense within israel that they understand that they are losing the public relations war globally. do they get that hamas has accomplished exactly what they wanted to accomplish? and that is isolating israel on the world stage and stopping dead in its tracks any normalization of relationships between any other arab nations and israel? do they understand they lost that front? >> i think there is a widespread feeling in israel that they have lost a lot of public relations battles for a very long time. there is a consciousness in israel of movements against them in the united states and in other parts of the world. i think it makes it in some ways a sadder place, although a lot of israelis will insist they have to continue the way that they are. they have to do what they have to do, that's the way israelis would describe it. those are the kinds of terms

that i hear. people will say, what choice do we have? we can't do anything else. it's a price we have to pay. i think there's some consciousness of the price, but not yet a determination to change course. >> steve, thank you very much. coming up, the future of openai's next path forward remains unclear. nearly all of the company's employees have threatened to quit after the ceo's abrupt firing. plus, the voting rights act is now in jeopardy. what a circuit court judge ruled about the landmark civilights law and its impact to millions of black voters. "morning joe" will be right back. voters. "morning joe" will be right back

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the voting rights act could

be in jeopardy. yesterday, a federal appeals court issued a ruling that would effectively bar private citizens and civil rights groups from filing lawsuits under a central provision of the landmark 1965 civil rights law. in a 2-1 ruling a three-judge panel of the eighth circuit upheld a district court opinion that dismissed an arkansas redistricting case brought by advocacy groups representing black voters in the states. the decision found that only the us attorney general is able to bring a suit under section two of the voting rights act. the ruling immediately affects legislation in seven states covered by the eighth circuit. the case is expected to be challenged all the way to the u.s. supreme court. a missouri mother who spent months agonizing over the disappearance of her son finally laid him to rest yesterday.

37-year-old dexter wade left his mother's house in early march and seemingly disappeared. it would take her nearly six months to learn that her son had been hit by an off-duty police officer's car and killed less than hour from leaving her home. police initially said they could not notify next of kin because wade did not have any id on him. but an independent autopsy requested by the family found that wade had been buried with his driver's license in his front pocket. yesterday reverend al sharpton delivered the eulogy at wade's funeral. >> so sad and so moving for this mississippi mother. you wonder what mississippi officials were doing. tell us about it. >> i really am outraged beyond

words. this man, 37 years old, two daughters, hit by an off-duty policeman and then put in the morgue for several months while his mother was filing missing persons claims and doing what was necessary and was moving all over jackson trying to find her son. for three months he laid in the morgue. then they buried him in a potter's field that is attached to the jail and said that he had no id. when the independent autopsy went in, he had his driver's license, he had credit cards. the only thing one can guess is there was some kind of coverup for whatever reason and there had to be more than just the off-duty driver. we've called for, along with attorney ben crump, who represents the family, a federal investigation on this. mind you, here's a city that has

had those in the county wanting to take policing from them. we've had a city that has had water disputed. they need to rally around and make sure these officers, who was was involved at all at whatever level, pay for it. one guy said to me yesterday, well, it was a black driver. i said it was three blacks that beat tyre nichols to death in memphis. i did that eulogy. i think the fact that he's black in mississippi and part of this makes it even worse and more mandatory for people like me to get involved, because there wouldn't be black cops in mississippi if it wasn't for the civil rights movement. >> the attitudes there might have played into decisions there to take such a terrible risk that these cops, whoever they were, but it sounds like crimes were committed at multiple levels within the police department.

>> just a horrible coverup. i can't imagine the horrors that this mother faced. god bless her for being a fighter and for continuing to get justice. what happens next for her and for the family in their continued pursuit of justice? i know they have to be so grateful that you were there and today you're shining a light on it for the whole country. >> i'm sure they're grateful that you and mika have put this out. i would hope that our appeals to the justice department to come in, because you can't really ask local authorities to investigate themselves, because it appears there was some coverup. how do you put a body in the morgue and not identify it and then the license is in his pocket when you dig him up five months later?

this mother is a strong woman. this is a strong family. to meet them in person, they were determined. to think of the horrific five to six months she went through running around town trying to find her son and then what happens when she finds out. and i might add in closing, it was never brought to her by police. it was a local nbc reporter, john, who was there at the funeral yesterday that uncovered where her son was and told her where he was. if it had not been for him, she may still be looking for her son. >> unbelievable. >> we'll be looking for updates on this. >> let's hope the justice department does get involved. coming up, our next guest has suggestions for gifts with meaning this holiday season. ho.

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the future of artificial intelligence continues to change this morning. hundreds of employees at openai, the company that owns chatgpt, are threatening to quit after the board ousted ceo sam altman, who was quickly picked up by microsoft. nbc news senior business correspondent christine romans has the details. >> reporter: at the hottest company in the hottest sector of technology, the cofounders are out, the board under fire and hundreds of its employees threatening to quit. sam altman was at the helm of openai, the company at the forefront of fast-moving artificial intelligence, technology that could change the way the world works. >> altman is the zuckerberg to

social media. he's the golden child. >> the board fired altman without elaborating, blaming transparency issues, writing to employees his removal, was, quote, necessary to preserve the board's ability to execute its responsibilities and advance the mission of this organization. >> four board members of a company with 700 people essentially control a technology that could change every aspect of our lives. does washington need to be involved here? >> this is probably the biggest example of disaster of corporate governance that i've seen in 25 years. it's going to raise eyebrows on the beltway. >> reporter: what looks like disaster for openai could turn into a boon for others. microsoft, a heavy investor in openai, moved quickly, hiring altman and his generals. amid an ai arms race for talent,

hundreds of employees signed an open letter threatening to resign. apple, google and amazon, offers tens of millions of dollars. already there has been a downside. ai has been used as a tool for weaponizing disinformation, impersonation fraud, deep fakes, an line harassment and has the potential to replace millions of jobs. this holiday season the give of giving has never been easier. the "new york times" have released their annual gift guide made up of charities changing lives in both the united states and around the world. you can give your aunt a scarf and your uncle a tie, but wouldn't they prefer donations

in their names to send a girl to school or help change a life at home? and the "new york times" columnist joins us now. he runs the holiday impact prize, an award that highlights deserving nonprofit organizations. each charity will receive $50,000 gifts. katty kay has the first question for you, nick. >> i love this idea, particularly of supporting girls in africa. start by giving us a sense of how you choose these organizations. there are hundreds of thousands of nonprofits around the world. how do you choose the ones where people can give a gift, spend their dollars and know it's actually going to reach the people that need it? >> so there's been a revolution in philanthropy focusing on evidence. that's what i try to borrow from. i tend to focus on organizations that i have seen in the field, and i look for randomized

control trial as the gold standard of evidence that shows effectiveness. basically i look for a low-cost way that has a high return that's really changing lives. we have this huge audience out there in the news business that trusts us to vet the news, it trusts us to figure out what toaster is pest to guy. i think there's also an eagerness to get recommendations about how to give effectively. >> give us a sampling, if you will, of some of those you're recommending. >> sure. this year i partnered with what used to be the "new york times" media fund. that's been reinvented. so it's now the "new york times" communities fund. my three charities within that,

one is camfed. it helps girls go to school across africa. it's an incredible organization. $150, you can send a girl to high school for a year. then those girls get better jobs. they become nurses, teachers. they then support an average of three other girls. it's this perpetual motion machine. in the u.s. there's an organization called one goal that helps disadvantaged kids struggling in high school, helps them complete high school and go onto college or technical school. the third is an organization called perscolis that helps young people marginalized in the labor force typically earning less than $20,000 a year, and it gives them computer skills that enable them to triple their incomes and help break that cycle of policy. usually when i'm on your show

i'm talking about some gloomy news around the world. it's really nice to have something uplifting to share with our audiences. >> one of the things that occurs to me is that when someone gives to a worthy charity from a sourcelike you that they know is credible, they are giving a gift back to themselves. you feel better about yourself to do something like this. do you ever hear from any of the donors since you've been doing this that tell you how they feel about being involved in something noble rather than looking for what you're going to get over the holidays that you feel good about what you gave? >> at the end of the day, our efforts to help others have a somewhat imperfect record, but they have a perfect record of helping ourselves. i hear from people who want to

do something good over the holidays, though they don't really know who to trust. then their business school calls up and offers them a naming opportunity. then they do so. you know, at the end of that day that's not really going to change lives. only one-sixth of charitable donations really go to helping people in need. when people are connected to causes that really can transform lives and send girls to school and help young people in the united states break that cycle, i think they feel really good and it opens a new world to them. it's great to hear from those donors as well. >> this is the best gift you could ever give. if you would like to donate to any of these organizations visit

kristofimpact.org. thank you very much. >> good to be with you. coming up, a celebration of remarkable, underappreciated people who broke the rules and changed the world. changed the world. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

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wrong, because they're not. he continued, i think biden has a 50-50 shot here, but no better than that, may a little worse. he thinks he can cheat nature here and it's really risky. they've got a real problem if they are counting on trump to win it for him. i remember hillary doing that too. i don't think joe biden is doing that. axelrod should know as well as anyone because polls can be wrong. take the 2012 election for example where one year before president obama's reelection victory a quinnipiac survey showed him losing by four points to republican mitt romney. >> gallup had romney winning up until election night. claire, i've said it here. david axelrod is my friend. i do feel, though, it would be

really unfair to our viewers if we didn't tell them the truth about david axelrod's relationship with joe biden. he's never respected him. he's always talked badly about him. he trashed him in 2020. he said he was too old. in 2019, said he wasn't going to win in 2020. again, that is okay. that is certainly his business. but to act as if david axelrod criticizing joe biden on or off the record is breaking news is laughable. he has been doing it since joe biden was in the white house. >> well, in fairness to ax, there are a lot of people out there doing this. it's not just ax. i kind of agree with you this probably was not worthy of the coverage that maureen dowd is giving it and that polls can be wrong. i know david axelrod knows that

in his bones. i know anybody who's run for office knows that. i do think that it's important, as i said yesterday, this poll should focus the biden camp like a laser on those communities where typically too often their votes are taken for granted by the democratic party. i think in this era, no vote can be taken for granted. just because you're in a union doesn't mean you're voting for a democrat. just because you're black doesn't mean you're voting for the democrat. these are not monolithic communities. every vote has to be fought for and every single constituency needs to be addressed in terms of what their real needs are. now, having said all that, this is a binary choice. just because approval ratings

are low, i think the polling also shows both trump and biden would lose to a generic person of the other party. so there is real fatigue about anybody who's been in power because the electorate always wants something new, they want change. that's why the power of the incumbency has faded so dramatically in the last years, especially at the advent of the trump era going forward. look at the idiot football coach. he got elected senator because he coached auburn football. he had no idea how government works or how to work with other people in government to achieve real results. he was just a football coach. but people want that now because they are so unhappy with the status quo. >> and you look at all those voters that democrats have taken for granted and add to that young voters as well.

jonathan lemire, getting to the point that so much was made of this, david axelrod coming out criticizing joe biden. we knew the players going back well over a decade here. david axelrod has always been critical of joe biden. again, that's his business. you know, he never thought joe biden could get elected president. that's fine. i'm not knocking him. that's his business. there's always been tremendous tension between a lot of people that worked in the obama white house and joe biden. people close to biden will be the first to tell you that a lot of the people that worked inside that white house treated him terribly, treated him with

absolutely no respect. those scars continue. why do i bring this up? again, because this was presented as massive news this past weekend, and it's just not. this is second verse same as first. >> it's well chronicled that many in the obama white house looked down a little bit on joe biden, though they valued what he brought to the ticket. they did not think he was necessarily always in the right. there was some resentment there in the west wing. let's also be clear that joe biden never got over the idea that barack obama as president tapped hillary clinton to be his sort of successor and not his own vice president in 2016. first of all, david axelrod said something prior to a couple of different outlets.

there's also a little bit of bristling from obama folks that joe biden's first years in office were extraordinarily successful, which matched up pretty favorably to what barack obama could do as president. it was lbj and fdr that biden invoked as his spiritual predecessors, not the man for which he was once vice president. >> i think a lot of people don't want to remember what obama inherited, the economy and all when he came in and what he was able to do to bring the country back. i know david axelrod. you should never underestimate what he says. he's been right more than he's been wrong. but having said that, the polls are what they are. they said the same thing about biden in 2020, and it was wrong. i think that we should not underestimate joe biden. if anything, joe biden will read this and be inspired. he's the kind of guy that takes

every hit as something to drive him more. in many ways, axelrod may be helping joe biden work out harder in the jim in the morning, because he's the kind of guy that's going to prove you wrong if he can. >> i think it would be good if it was perhaps put in the realm of reality. the reality is joe biden is proven when it comes to beating trump, vetted on what it's like to run against trump. if anyone shouldn't be underestimated, it's donald trump. we said it the first time around. we'll say it this time as well. joe biden has done it. who would you put in his place? if david axelrod says he has a 50-50 chance maybe, who would have more than 50?

name one right now, anybody. there isn't one. that's the part i wish he would have written as well, is that what we need to build is a bench of great candidates. frankly, it would be great to see that in the democrat and the republican party with real republicans coming out of the woodwork standing up for this country. but nobody knows that donald trump isn't to be underestimated more than joe biden. he'll tell you that himself. >> i just have to repeat it. what we're hearing about joe biden from democrats now, we were hearing in 2019. i have a quote. david axelrod in 2019 saying joe biden was too old to run for president. >> well, yeah. by the way, he ran and won and he has done an amazing job and

accomplished things in a bipartisan way that really i think people forget how hard that is to do in this era, how to do real bipartisan policy work. everywhere you drive, i was out and about yesterday and everywhere you drive you see something being built. that is joe biden and that is the infrastructure that he delivered. i think it's time to start focusing on the positive and get over the fact that we have two old white men running for president. one of them is crazy. the other one is normal. this should not be hard. >> it should not. >> can we put up the david axelrod quote from axelrod quote from 2020. biden has a big problem. his campaign manager said some time ago they would be viable in 59% of the state, blah, blah, blah, but he's dead broke and needs to raise money. hard to rse money off an anemic fourth place finish. he to revive himself in

w mpshire or the firewall that everybody talks about in south carolina may just not be there for him, david axelrod, february 2020. >> 2020. >> the firewall in south carolina was there for him after i believe the fifth place finish and new hampshire, joe biden was talking about a firewall, joe biden, everybody is saying he's too old to run, joe biden was right in 2020. i think the rev is right right now. the more you say about him, the more you back him into the corn, the madder he gets and more determined he gets to win. who do the democrats have that are going to fare better against donald trump? >> i am absolutely certain he would pass that baton handily if he knew the next person could win. still ahead, the latest developments out of israel as government officials are set to

convene amid hostage talks with hamas. and msnbc will be covering this story throughout the day. "morning joe" will be right back. the day "morning joe" will be right back and who doesn't love a good throwback? [sfx: video game] emergen-c crystals. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin,

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that always puts you first. (we did it) start today at godaddy.com my name is shorty harris. don't bother to applaud. i'm here strictly for the cash. ladies and gentlemen, lo boys a girls and those of you who aren't too sure, you are about to witness what is almost certainly the world's greatest demonstration of -- >> that was ventriloquist terry rogers, a pioneer who broke ground in her field as a transgender performer in the mid to late 20th century. despite her success and critical acclaim, rogers never received an obituary in the paper of

record, "the new york times," when she passed away in 1999. rogers finally received that recognition in the new book entitled "overlooked: a celebration of remarkable, underappreciated people who broke the rules and changed the world." and joining us now, the book's co-author, amy patnani, an obituary editor for "the new york times" and the creator of the paper's overlooked series. thank you for coming on the show this morning. so, who had this idea? it is a great idea. where did the concept come from? >> thank you for asking and thank you for having me. i joined the obituaries desk in 2017. this book is based on a project i started a year later called "overlooked" and basically we would get these emails from readers, i credit our readers, they said why don't you have more women and people of color in your obituaries pages? and i thought, yeah, why don't we? i would really like to see more people like myself for instance

represented yet we were seeing largely a slate of men, mostly white men. and so, i set off on this journey to see how we could balance the report when i stumbled upon fascinating people in history who i learned never got a "new york times" obituary. i proposed a series where we write their obituaries now. that began in 2018. we published some 250 obituaries for remarkable people, mostly women, people of color, people from the lgbtq community, people with disabilities, and this book contains 66 obituaries of those people, about two dozen of which have never been published before in the newspaper. >> sort of extraordinary, though, overlooked perhaps in the obituary pages, but people left real imprint on this nation. tell us about ida b. wells. >> every journalist, every woman journalist, she's a hero. she pioneered investigative

methods of reporting and she started a campaign and risked threats to her own life to publish articles about the injustices that were occurring in her lifetime. and so it was really interesting because we had a front page notice about her wedding in "the new york times," but absolutely nothing about her death. >> that is what is striking to me. because it is beyond imaginable you wouldn't have ida b. wells obituary. what is the criteria they were using to decide who gets a written obituary or not? >> yeah, you know, i can only surmise why all of these people were overlooked. still confounding to me. i had a couple of thoughts, you know. we didn't always have an obituaries desk. it would have been up to other sections like the national desk perhaps to write about these people. maybe it was a busy news day, maybe a person died in obscurity or maybe it simply an editor didn't think they were worthy of an obituary at the time.

>> just amazing. >> just names here, you just -- really, sylvia plath? alan turing? the names are well known today. it is hard to believe that sylvia plath was overlooked as well as the guy that broke the nazi code and helped win world war ii for the u.s. and the british. >> yeah, you know, i kind of thought maybe with alan turing, more of a british phenomenon, and perhaps we were more u.s. focused at the time. i wondered with sylvia plath, you know, i looked back at old clips and she's referred to as the wife of ted hughes. so i don't think she quite got the recognition in her lifetime that we're aware of today. one of the big benefits of overlooked is you cannot only recount the person's life and achievements, but you can see what their impact was in the many decades since their death.

and these names are extremely surprising and i think were very worthy of including in this project. but there were so many unsung heroes who changed our worlds that you may never have heard of or we have a whole section called "capturing your imagination," people who did quirky things and don't even know what compelled them. annie taylor, the first to go over niagara falls in a barrel and survive. there were others who did not make it and people since her as well. so it was her 60th birthday, she wanted to get rich quick, a get rich quick scheme during the world's fair and she did not get rich, but it is really interesting that she came up with this idea. >> wow. >> what? wait, okay, the new book "overlooked," we'll have to read it, a celebration of remarkable underappreciated people who broke the rules and changed the world. it is out now, amy padnani,

thank you for bringing it to us. congratulations on the book. >> thank you so much. >> final thought this morning, you had a lot to say today. >> my final thought is that going back to "the new york times" lead about donald trump running as an authoritarian and reverend al not hiding it at all. >> not at all. and the fact that people need to understand we're not talking about one old man against another old man, we're talking about democracy itself. and how they have upended women's rights, civil rights, the voting rights, that's what's on the ballot and that's what people need to think about. >> freedom, freedom is on the ballot. freedom to vote. freedom for women to make choices about -- >> everything. >> -- their healthcare, their life, their body, everything. >> that does it for us this morning. we will see you tomorrow. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. hello i'm