so it's unfathomable for us and i will say that the community here has really rallied behind us and we are feeling an incredible sense of support from people here. we are really grateful for that. >> i've got to say this. covering this conflict, one of the struggles i think is relating to different parts of the conflict. and it's just human nature that certain things will grab you and as an alumni of brown, i've been very invested in the nephew and his friends story just for that silly reason, that relatability. we are just hoping the absolute best for him and i help you can keep us up today about him and his recovery. i really do hope i get to meet him at some point. >> thank you, i'll just say very quickly that brown has been incredibly supportive. they said hey whatever the problems, we will take care of. it >> awesome.

chris brice very much. that's all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner starts tonight. good evening. alex wagner starts as a fellow browi feel the same way. unfortunately, so much death and destruction becomes abstract and when there is some sort of foothold you have into your own reality i think it makes at once both and easier to be involved in the story. i'm with you on that front. thank. you >> have a good night. >> thanks to you at home for joining me tonight. approximately 140 police officers were injured on january 6th when a violent mob stormed the capitol. one of those officers was gems glancing jing, a 17 year veteran of the capitol police. this is how mr. blossoming described that data pbs news hour. >> you just hear just noise and people running at me as far as

i can see. from the crypt to the north side center side of the capital just running after us. as bad as it looks on filled, believe me it was much worse. they can stitch to mega together as much footage as they want to, but i'm telling you, anybody who is in that scrum will tell you, it was much worse in person than anything you want to see on film. >> officer blasting game and another officer became the first members of the capital police force to sue the person they say is expense responsible that attack. not any of the individual rioters, not the far-right groups that helped organize the riot. those officers sued the man at the very top, donald trump, who urged the mob to descend on the capitol with the hope of overturning a legitimate presidential election. now these capitol police officers filed civil lawsuits in march of 2021, that was just two months after the attack. but those lawsuits have been languishing in the federal

courts for more than two years now. the d.c. circuit court heard arguments in those cases nearly a year ago but that court still has not issued a ruling. according to statistics from the administrative office of the u.s. courts with tracks this sort of stuff, the deliberation here has taken nearly three times as long as an average ruling for this court the d.c. circuit court. and that delay matters. not just for those capitol police officers seeking accountability here. the extraordinary delay also matters to special counsel jack smith and his federal criminal case against donald trump. and that is because in both the civil cases brought by the capitol police officers and the criminal case brought by jack smith, trump's lawyers have made essentially the same argument. they are using the same line of defense. they argue that donald trump is immune from prosecution. according to their defense, trump's efforts to overturn the election riot the crowd, those

efforts were all somehow part of trump's official duties as president, and therefore trump is immune from any liability, criminal or civil. he should not have to stand trial. jeff tanya chutkan is being asked to rule on that very question right now and jack smith's federal case, but anything she decides there could be overruled by the judges on the d.c. circuit court, the ones deciding the merits of that same argument, trump's presidential immunity argument in the capital police officers civil suit. and so judge chutkan is taking her time here. in what some people believe may be an attempt to wade through the d.c. circuit court to issue its very long awaited ruling first. now any decision that trump gets on this from either judge chutkan or the d.c. circuit court could be appealed, and it could be appealed all the way to the supreme court. and remember, it has to be resolved before donald trump

goes to trial. but if it goes all the way to the supreme court, it could delay trump's federal trial for weeks or even months. so it really matters what the courts to here and how fast they do it. could they get this all done before the republican convention this summer? could they get done before election day? hello to american voters have to wait before they know whether a man who can be nominated or even elected president before they know whether he is a convicted felon or not? so all of that is playing out as we are learning new details about what special counsel jack smith has in store for donald trump at that criminal trial whenever it starts. abc news has reporting today about what vice president mike pence has told prosecutors and what he might testify to a trial, that trump acted recklessly on january 6th. that pence allegedly told trump there was no idea more un-american than the idea that any one person could decide what electoral votes to count. and when we counting a phone

call with donald trump on christmas day, 2020, pence wrote in his book that he told trump, you know khama i don't think i have the authority to change the outcome of the election on january 6th. but pence allegedly told smiths investigators that the camera, that comet should never have been there. pence apparently meant to write that he admonished trump. you know i don't have the authority to change the outcome. some potentially damning testimony from trump's own former vice president. but the question now is will a jury get to consider any of it before the 2024 presidential election? joining me now are to kimberly atkins score, boston globe pinion columnist and joyce vance former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. both a co-host of the sisters in law podcast. kimberly, let me first start

with you. the idea of presidential immunity here. on its face to the casual of adverse observer and i will put myself in that group, it seems sort of press prosperous the trump's actions in and around january six would be part of his official duties. but talk to me about the merits of that line of defense if you would? >> donald trump and his attorneys would essentially have to make the case that is actions leading up to and on that day were a part of his official duties as president of the united states. they wanted it they weren't campaign event, they were outside his duties, it was his job as president when he was speaking at that podium and urging people to go, encourage the members of congress to do what they were doing he was speaking as president. i am with you, i think there is a reason why he didn't get that message from the white house itself. it was because, it was clearly

a campaign event at best or something outside of the realm of the presidency. keep in mind, that privilege does not extend to illegality. so if something was -- if he was engaged in some sort of crime that could be seen outside of that. if a judge deems that this was a political and not a part of his duties, that could be outside of that. but this like so many things surrounding donald trump and the events leading up to and around january six or so novel, these are things that have never happened in our republic before, we need these courts to evaluate it and make these rulings before going forward. the problem here as you outlined, these appeals could slow the pace of these trials so that they don't happen before the next election. >> yeah. i'm gonna try to not use the phrase interlocutory appeal, but i absolutely understand

what you are talking about. and joyce, while kimberly very rightfully point said that these are novel cases, they're also particularly fraught. any decision here is in the one for the history books. do you think that's why the d.c. circuit court is taking so very extraordinarily law to issue a ruling that could have a serious effect on this criminal case? >> yes, it's an interesting question alex. it's tough to say when we look at the statistics from the administrative office of the courts that these appeals are really taking what we might characterize as too long. that's because not all appeals are the same and the d.c. circuit here is some very simple appeals from some very simple basic criminal cases and also here's complicated ones from administrative decisions involving agency functions. so from my point of view, the air mark is not an excessively

long period of time. might we read into that that the corners holding these opinions to release them together? i suppose that could be the case but that's not typically how courts would handle the sort of a matter. the civil cases could be decided and the court would make it clear in its opinion that is setting at the standard for civil cases. that would leave the issues still to be decided in the criminal context, the defense is a very similar, they overlap to some extent, but they still have three different nuances when they arrive to civil and criminal amphitheater. so i'm suppose i am not answering your question directly, other to say that we will have to simply have to wait for the courts to do what they are going to do here. they don't give us a lot of advanced warning about what they're thinking is. >> again, to the casual observer here kimberly, it seems like a game of hot potato. judge chutkan is waiting, this decision has to be made before trump goes to trial in the federal case. the d.c. circuit court is doing whatever it is doing but it almost feels like no one really

wants to hand down the ruling on this. and i over reading the situation? >> again, joyce is right. we really don't know, only the judges in this case no foreshore. but that could quite possibly be. it could be a combination of all those things. a busy dog had plus this novel question plus it is a hot potato that will be in the annals of history forevermore. some justice as often operate slowly and in this case when all the fraud issues we are talking about in our and play it could be even slower. >> i guess the acceptance that justice works slowly, there is a lot of merit to justice working slowly. but there is a case made in the new york times today that effectively the january 6th trial needs its own rocket docket so reason that a lot of our viewers will understand. or even except for you joyce. this is not a proposal for the courts to act in a partisan fashion. the outcome of the legal

process is not the point. the point is that the country deserve to know that outcome before it chooses its leader the, next leader of the free world. the supreme court the, court system move very quickly and bush v. gore. why can it not move expeditiously in this incredibly important, very limited window it has to tell the country whether donald trump is guilty or not? >> yeah, i think that's exactly the question that we should be asking. there is no reason that the courts cannot move that quickly here. what we are now waiting on all four is judge chutkan to rule on some of those motions that could give rise to what we are not calling tonight an interlocutory appeal. on to say and appeal that takes place before the case goes to trial. we let most issues wait until after the criminal case has been resolved, that way if the defendant is acquitted, you don't have to have an appeal. if the defendant is acquitted, he or she can then get their appeal and court resources are not wasted. but here with these

constitutional issues, there will be an appeal before trial and we have seen appellate courts act very quickly. the 11th circuit acted very swiftly when it was considering the first trump case in front of aileen cannon wanted -- from using the fruits of the search of mar-a-lago in advancing a criminal case. the 11th circuit acted very rapidly. no reason at the 11th circuit couldn't take a look at these issues which have been thoroughly briefed and a very prompt matter, and while the supreme court has the ability to take the court and hear it, perhaps they will, they can act quickly or they might be satisfied with the court of appeals decision and permit that to stand. so lots of ways for the appellate courts to move this case forward so that trial can begin on schedule in march, if they are have a mind to do that. >> i wonder if and when the trial does get underway, presumably this year kimberly, how damaging do you think the pence testimony might be given

what we are learning from that abc reporting this evening? is their expectation that he will be called to the stand? >> yes. he is going to be one of the most crucial witnesses in this case, because he is the highest ranking current or former official who has kyiv and its directly weighing on what donald trump did and said in those days leading up to and on january 6th. i would've loved if he had testified about this under oath before but he rode it in his book, but he's under oath now, having spoke to the prosecutors. and already testifying in a deposition. so this is crucial evidence not, only did donald trump have mike pence telling him that this was not a valid avenue to pursue, but that there were lawyers within the administration who were telling him this as well. he made a choice to pick and choose who he listened to. he listened to the giuliani's

and the sydney powell's in his circle as opposed to even his own vice president. that could cut very deeply into his defense that he was only following lawyers advice. you can't just pick and choose lawyers, cherry pick the ones who are telling you what you want to hear from that defense to hold. >> kimberly brings up the name rudy giuliani when i will be remiss choice vie then get your opinion today on the news that the final one is the d.a. down in fulton county georgia, is that she's willing to offer plea deals are as left the door open if you will to all the named coconspirators in that fulton county case except donald trump, rudy giuliani and mark meadows. to some extent it does nick surprise me being an atlas but i was surprised that giuliani and metals are not people she seeking to turn into prosecution witnesses. were you? >> no. not at all. i think she is certainly not looking to hand out deals to them. in a r.i.c.o. case there is a

lot of advantage to trying the people at the top, the general and the lieutenants together, to get in all of the evidence about the r.i.c.o. scheme. in some ways, and we have seen trump already doing this with some of the co-defendants who are cooperating, if they are all cooperating against you then you give that general, the defendant, the opportunity to say they were all doing this, i didn't know anything, i was sitting in the oval office trying to carry on the nation's business on rudy giuliani and mark meadows were freelancing. so by seating them all of the defendants table together, you really kneecap the ellipse you to do that, particularly when you've got many of the lower level defendants cooperating. i think willis has for right now. she is certainly trying to get more of those codefendants to become cooperating witnesses. they all continue to point the finger at different ones of the defendants. that looks like a good r.i.c.o. case. >> that r.i.c.o. case not held

up by the same dc circuit court of appeals are the deliberations of judge chutkan on president trump's immunity defense. kimberly, joyce, thank you for being here tonight. we have a lot more this evening, including the world's richest man, elon musk, resurrecting the pizzagate conspiracy theory. plus, more hostages freed in the temporary cease-fire in gaza while negotiators, including high-ranking american, try to extend that truce. we'll talk to former cia director john brennan about the possibility of a more lasting peace. that's next. e lastin peace. that's next. >>

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extended cease-fire between israel and hamas, 12 hostages held captive by hamas were released. ten israelis and to tie nationals. this video shows some of them crossing out of gaza into egypt, including 1:17 year old girl carrying a pat dog. there were no americans among the according to the white house. nine american hostages remain in gaza in. in exchange for today's hostage release, israel released 30 palestinians who were being held inside israeli prisons. according to the israeli military, and 12 hostages have

arrived safely in israel, where their families eagerly await reunions like this one. the young boy scene here hugging his mother's 12-year-old eaton yahalomi, an israeli friend citizen. eaton was released yesterday but his father remains captive inside gaza. the truth little out these exchanges essential expire tomorrow night. but tonight cia director william burns is in doha, qatar, in round of new negotiations. a diplomat with knowledge of those talks tells abc news that groups other than women and children are part of those hostage discussions. joining me now is john brennan, former director of the cia and now an msnbc national security and intelligence analyst. director brennan, thank you for being here. one thing that has struck me over an interesting facet of all of this is that these negotiations are being led by a

representative from mossad and one from the cia, of course in addition to the qataris. how unusual is that set of talks, if you will, between mossad in the cia? >> well, the cia has had very strong and long-standing ties to mossad and it's not surprising to me that cia is involved heavily in these discussions because the negotiations with hamas are taking place through intermediaries. in this case it's mostly the qataris, but also the egyptians. the cia also has contacts, some very close relations between qataris and egyptian intelligence. so their form aside, the external intelligence organization of israel, also has dealings with egyptians and the qataris. again, it's unsurprising with these very sensitive negotiations are taking place in intelligence channels. i think with great confidence in the mossad, i think they're

very close, the leaders, and i believe that progress was made over the last few days as a result of hammering of these discussions and the terms of the arrangements. the terms of the agreement have been followed through so far. tomorrow is going to be a very critical day. the sixth day of this truce, and the exchange of hostages and prisoners. i am confident that director burns is doing all he can to extend that truce and to get more of these hostages free. >> can i ask you what you would assume that the sort of next group of hostages might be after all the women, after the remaining women and children have been freed from hamas custody in custody of other radical groups? >> i think hamas hamas is going to keep the israeli defense force personnel. they're not going to give those up. certainly at this point. the israelis have been insistent that any extension of the truce involves the release

of tim additional hostages. after the scheduled release of hostages tomorrow, i think the number of hostages will be about 150, 153. the numbers are coming down, which is good. hamas may try to draw out this truce and offer fewer hostages for every day that the truce can be extended. clearly, i think, hamas wants to buy additional time. it is using the time to reposition its forces and i think to prepare for the day after the truce given that netanyahu is determined and has said publicly that israel will relaunch the military campaign. and so i do believe that hamas wants to be able to make as much preparation as possible for that eventual day. >> how significant a challenge is it that nearly a quarter of the hostages that remain in captivity are not actually in hamas custody? >> it's difficult. one of the things that i think is positive is that at least hamas leadership has still

retain command and control over the hamas units that had control of these hostages that have been released so far. but whether or not the palestinians, islamic jihad, and some of the other terror organizations in gaza are going to be willing to give up their hostages to hamas, that's a real question mark. there are reports that some of these hostages, including the israeli military personnel, were traded or sold among these various gaza militant organizations. i must maybe trying to use this period of time together under their command and control more of these hostages that they can train to the israelis. >> i've got to ask you because you may know to the fact that hamas is likely preparing for the day after the truth ends. the administration, the biden administration, it has been encouraging if not urging israel to fight surgically, that is the term being reported in the new york times today. what do you think that

practically means and how feasible is it, given what we've seen from israel? >> a number of palestinian civilian deaths in excess of 14,000 or so really demonstrates that the israelis have been using rather broad targeting parameters when they engage in the strikes. so the question is, if they go after a terrorist leader, a hamas leader, an operative, or whatever, and they know where this individual is located, are they willing to strike the target knowing that they're going to kill a dozen, 50, or 100 palestinian civilians in order to accomplish that strike objective? what i am hoping is happening is that the biden administration has convinced the israelis to lower that proportionality number so that there is not going to be bombings, as the footage shows, against these apartment buildings, these refugee camps and others, where israelis may

have been successful in killing a handful or even a dozen of hamas terrorists, but at the same time they kill scores of palestinian civilians as they do that. clearly the israelis know that the civilian deaths will take place when they strike these terrorist targets. the question is, having these really scale back the scope in the extent of these strikes so that, as you point out, they are much more precise, surgical, and they're not going to incur the number of civilian deaths that we have seen, tragically, so far. >> yes, 13,000, according to our latest reporting. and a humanitarian catastrophe over there. john brennan, former cia director, such a pleasure having you in the program. thanks so much for your time and thoughts. we have lots more ahead tonight. can the koch brothers super pacs do for the kings presidential campaign what it has done for the fossil fuel

industry? we're going to talk about the great gop megadonor push to nominate not trump. but first, you will not believe what elon musk is up to now. or you shouldn't believe it. more on that, after the break. more on that, after the break. more on that, after the break. >> keep your laundry smelling fresh way longer than detergent alone. get 6x longer-lasting freshness plus odor production with downy unstopables. try for under $5. love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so, yeah. right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. when you join your friends, neighbors and me to support no kid hungry, you'll help hungry kids get the food they need.

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planet, elon musk, flew halfway around the world yesterday. he donned a flak jacket and he got a personal tour of a kibbutz that's been attacked by hamas in southern israel, a tour led by president netanyahu himself. and mr. musk was pretty transparent about why he was there. shortly after landing, musk posted on x, formerly known as twitter, which he owns, he's posted actions speak louder than words. know mr. musk did not specify which words he was referring to in that post, but this very public display of unity with israel and with prime minister netanyahu, that comes as elon musk is in the hot seat. he is there specifically for endorsing an antisemitic conspiracy theory on ex, calling the antisemitic theory the actual truth. that, surprise, surprise, led to a mass exodus of advertisers from the platform, which one appears to have led to this public mask apology tour

yesterday. you might think, given that he had just flown around the world and toward the site of a massacre, to clean up the mess he had made for publicly endorsing a conspiracy theory, you might think elon musk would think twice before endorsing another conspiracy theory. but apparently not. today elon musk posted a meme posting a conspiracy theory that is literally the most clear-cut textbook example about why pushing a conspiracy theory is dangerous. pizzagate. a 28-year-old man entered the comment police a pizza parlor and fill out an ar-15 style rifle. the staff and patrons at comet, including children, all fled. but the man, edgar welch, who had driven six hours through multiple states to get to this particular pizza place, he stayed inside. he shot the lock off a closet

and he moved all of the furniture. edgar welch was looking for proof that the pizza parlor was actually the, let me check my notes here, the home base of a child sex trafficking ring run by hillary clinton. that conspiracy, known colloquially as pizzagate, was spread online, primarily through fabricated news articles with headlines like fbi insider, good to be emails linked to political pedophile sex ring, and it's over, nypd just raided hillary's property. what they found will ruin her life. all of that was fake. it has been debunked over and over again. but it still convince demand to storm a pizza parlor with an ar-15 style rifle. and that history here of fake news leading to a real world attack, that makes it all the more astounding that the

particular pizzagate conspiracy theory that elon musk pushed today was also based on a fake news story. it came from literally doctor new york post headline read, award winning journalist who debunked pizzagate pleads guilty and horrific child porn case. reuters fact-checked this months ago. that headline did not actually ever exist. and pizzagate has been, again, debunked, over and over again. but still elon musk bought into it. a few hours ago mr. musk deleted the pizzagate post. maybe this time he learned his lesson. or maybe not. coming up, could dark money saved the republican party from a trump nomination? that's next. p nomination that's next. that's next. >>

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in everything i have ever done. and it's a blessing, because it makes me scrappy. no one is going to outwork me in this race. no one's going to outsmart me in this race. >> today, just seven weeks before the iowa caucuses, nikki haley scrappy campaign got a major endorsement from americans for prosperity action, a super pac founded by the conservative billionaire koch brothers. the group happens to have a lot

of influential dark money, money that is funded efforts to advance climate change denialism and antiabortion activism and the nation national rifle association. so it's endorsement and it's dollars carry weight in republican circles. in a memo the super pac explained why nikki haley, citing internal polling that showed haley outperforming trump by 8:14 points in the matchup against trump in key battleground states. she may have to perform trump against biden, before she can get to that there is hailie against trump. her recent poll, from morning consult, shows are trailing donald trump by 54 points. joining me now is charlie sykes, editor at large of the bulwark and host of the bulwark podcast. charlie, thank you for being here. first, i want to get your thoughts on how important, how influential the koch dollars can be to a campaign like nikki haley's. >> let's start off by

stipulating that still highly unlikely that nikki haley is going to be able to defeat donald trump. the 54 point hole is pretty deep. but having said that, this is potentially quite significant, because, number one, it provides her with a good deal of money. it provides her with the organizational infrastructure that afp brings. and also it is a signal to other donor donors that she is the one person, she's going to be the last one standing against donald trump. as mrs. bennett said and pride and prejudice, it will throw her in the way of other rich man. talking about the possibility of the consolidation of the field, in order to defeat donald trump, the field has to consolidate. you can't have a eight candidates, or nine candidates, that's what happened in 2016. now this sends a real signal that this has become a three person race and is about perhaps to become a two person race. it's still donald trump's to

lose, but this is a significant move because the koch network, they saw the same polls you cited. they understand the dynamic that don trump is likely to win this nomination. and yet they decided to get in right now and put a lot of their credibility and the resources behind this. >> i think the consolidation piece is perhaps what's most interesting in terms of her ability to do just that. i was struck by the fact that in announcing their pick to get behind nikki haley, the super pac had what almost sounded like an apology to the desantis campaign. i read an expert. our thanks, this is as they endorse nikki haley, our thanks in appreciation's to governor desantis, who is when a tremendous leader for the state of florida, we understand some of the governors supporters will be disappointed in our decision. however, as a 2024 primary season heats up, we are entering a time period that demands choices. it almost seems like they're

trying to do some of the work for haley and bring desantis supporters over. i wonder if you think of supporter is someone, and she has risen and taken ways some support from desantis in recent weeks, but they are so different's candidates. and seemingly different on some key policy areas. i wonder whether you think it's possible for her to bring his 18% of primary voters over to her side of the aisle, as it were. >> now the key question, isn't it? to consolidate you have to get to 50%. and that's not gonna be easy because a lot of the desantis supporters will go to donald trump because they think of desantis as a basically trump-ism with or without trump. they might as well go with the real thing. but i do think that there is a sentiment out there. how big it, is among republicans saying let's just move on. thank you for your service, donald trump, ron desantis, but what is significant to me about

afb getting involved is how urgently they seem to think it is to stop don trump. that's what i would focus. they see donald trump as a real threat to the nation and not just to the causes that they care about. they have had some real significant differences with nikki haley on foreign policy. they're kind of a libertarian organization, and they have gone at a very different direction, on a variety of issues including aid to ukraine. but apparently they decided that they are willing to put all of those differences aside because the recognize the urgency of now coalescing behind anyone who can stop donald trump. that's a statement. it's an indication that if you squint just a little bit you can see maybe what normal republicans might do, and that nikki haley has become showing

a little bit of momentum, i suppose it is much momentum as anyone, since that first debate. this will not hurt her in iowa or new hampshire or south carolina. >> i think, charlie, your point about kochs electing anyone besides donald trump is significant. i think cnn got access to the liz cheney memoir coming out next week. we'll have an interview with her and our colleague rachel maddow on monday night. but i do wonder, there's an excerpt in the book, and i love to get your reaction to it. cnn reports that liz cheney said george w. bush santa cheney a private message of support after she voted to impeach trump for the january 6th attack. on some level that's not surprising. but why are republicans like george w. bush still withholding their public criticism of donald trump?

>> well, alex, we've been asking this question for seven or eight years now. when are republicans going to say in public what they've been saying in private? it is striking. i'm gonna look at the other side of that. when you think about the number of people from the trump administration, the people who work most closely with him, his former chief of staff, attorney general, his former secretary of defense, his former national security adviser, all of whom are now very publicly and openly saying donald trump is not fit for office. he is dangerous. we cannot allow him back in the oval office. and you wonder whether or not at this moment of choosing the afp describes, will he come out? i think we know what liz cheney is going to say. but liz cheney is going to be a unique voice to pry some of those republicans lose because, first of all, she's a cheney. she's an insider. she's all out of bleeps to give. she has a great deal of knowledge of what has been going on, both in your experience, in republican leadership, and in the january

six committee. and she is going to spend, i'm thinking in the next year, holding her fellow republicans feet to the fire and saying to you really want to do this? choose honor or dishonor. this is the moment of choosing. do you want to go down in history the way that history will remember, saying or you will become just another lindsey graham potted plant in congress? i do think republicans, this moment of choice, republicans have already made their choice. i think that this is donald trump's party, but what happened today is an indication that there are some folks who have considerable resources who are not just going to roll over. now of course the question is whether that actually matters, whether or not the big money, the dark, money the billion or donor class money actually matters anymore in the republican party. we're about to find that out over the next few months.

>> liz cheney and a coke super pac. moral choices for today's republican party. charlie sykes, i was good to see you. still ahead, the fight to stay alive while pregnant in the state of texas has reached the state supreme court. i will try to reproductive freedom for all wrap who says the 22 women who say out of their operating rooms. that's next. r operating rooms. that's next. that's next. >> plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. the ball is out and there's a pile-up. -let's go! -get in the pile! ugh, i'll deal with this tomorrow. you won't. it's ripe in here. my eyes are watering. i'm a busy man. look how crusty this is.

shameful. ugh, it's just too much. not with this. tide. tide can tackle any pile. that a tackle pun? just clean the pile, ron. okay. this too. that was easy. when stains and odors pile up, it's got to be tide. >> 22 women says texas

abortions bands have harmed them personally, some of them have died, the began suing the state and right. after hours of detailed testimony of state district judge partially judged texas's heartbeat ban at law. she will get people a specific pet pregnancy complications or non viable pregnancies should have abortion access. texas attorney general ken paxton promptly appeal that ruling, taking a position that texas law already has a vague medical exception.

today the state's highest court heard oral arguments. >> while there is technically a medical inspection except into the, bans nobody knows what it means, in the state won't tell us. >> a court would be saying that a patient needs to have blood or amniotic fluid dripping down their leg before they can come to court. >> texas states rim court is expected to rule in just a few weeks. joining me now is miniaturize, your presidency eo of reproductive freedom for all, known as pro-choice america. i think it's worth noting that there were five plaintiffs in this suit, initially, and now there are 22. what does it signal about the gravity of this law? >> first of all, kudos to our friends at the senate center for reproductive rights, top-notch legislator, running an impressive program, but it definitely says the longer these bands are in place the more horror stories that are emerging and as we continue to see the impact on jobs across

the country, but especially in texas, where spca was in a fight before the draft dobbs decision, the cases are just piling up. you are seeing more and more brave women coming forward and thank goodness, because their stories are really helping shift the narrative in the country but also they're really critical to pushing back against the texas legislature's significant overreach. >> when you talk about shifting the narrative, many of the women in these cases want to have children. something happens, either with them or with the fetus, and termination is the only option. i wonder how you think that maybe shifted the traditional political divide on the subject of reproductive freedom? >> you know, women coming forward and explaining how they are wanted pregnancies went awry, how they almost went to sepsis or shock, almost died, molly dwayne's point about having to have amniotic fluid

dripping down your leg for the state of before the state of texas considers you eligible as a plaintive in a case like this, this is important because it rips away the lies and disinformation about why folks get abortions, when folks get abortions, and what circumstances they have the man. these cases clearly illustrate an abortion's health care. they also clearly illustrate why exceptions don't work and how texas is specifically designed such a vague exception that the state can't even articulate what it means. doctors have to go to court to get them to explain it. >> it has made the physician patient relationship that much more fraught. what is your expectation here, as far as what the courts to? >> this is all about that lower court decision. the lower court injunction. i know there are friends feel very strong in their suit and their argument they're hopeful that there will be injunction

will be upheld and there will be further explanation for what these exceptions are supposed to mean. i think what i want to underscore, though, in texas, this supreme court has nine republicans. the question today whether the judge was definitely not without its own disinformation and bias. these attorneys and attorneys and plania plaintiffs are compelling, and their case is strong. what we have to pivot to at the national level is continuing to fight for federal protections, because in a place like texas, if cr is being surgical center for reproductive rights, we don't have -- this is a gerrymandered supermajority of republicans in the legislature, the best for texas is federal legislation codify roe and make federal right to abortion again in this country. >> mini timaraju, tank you for your time tonight. i do appreciated. that's our show for this evening. now it is time to the last w