"morning joe" starts right now. that was the moment karen shem found out her daughter, mia, was coming home. yesterday, the two were reunited for the first time in nearly two months. the 21-year-old was kidnapped from a music festival on october 7th. unfortunately, for dozens of other families, their loved ones remain captives of hamas terrorists and other groups in gaza. this morning, it is not clear when more hostages would be freed. a temporary pause in the fighting between israel and hamas ended yesterday. >> there is much to get to, mika. the front of "the washington post," the pope offers a warning to israel over gaza. "wall street journal" front page, right at the fold, you

have israelis planning a year-long manhunt around the globe to kill militants, which is probably what this was destined to be from the very beginning. but the news that is really rattling things in washington, from washington to tel-aviv, is this explosive "new york times" exclusive. >> oh, my goodness. >> that the israelis actually knew of this plan of attack in great specifics for a year, for a year, before october the 7th. >> we're going to speak to one of the reporters who broke that story in a moment. with us, we have columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. congressional investigations reporter for "washington post," jackie alemany. >> who will be reporting, of course, on kevin mccarthy's call with donald trump. >> yeah, what's that? >> come on, man. >> he's not eating, so

depressed. i have to see him. >> calling him, yeah. >> also with us, u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce. and katty kay is making her way to the table, as well, after "way too early" duties this morning upstairs. >> exactly. >> great group this morning. israel and hamas have resumed the fighting in gaza, ending a seven-day truce in the region. the israeli government says rockets were launched overnight in the final minutes of the truce. the prime minister's office also claims hamas did not meet its obligation to release all of the women hostages, thereby violating the agreed upon terms of the deal. the truce had been extended and was set to expire at the end of the day yesterday. diplomatic talks to continue the temporary pause in fighting came down to the wire last night, signaling negotiations may have broken down, but international mediators are continuing discussions in qatar in the hopes of another breakthrough.

before the fighting resumed, hamas released eight hostages yesterday. the group consisted of mostly women and included dual naons from russia and uruguay. also, israel freed 30 palestinian prisoners. israel freed 240 prisoners, and 105 hostages have en released. it is believed 137 hostages remain in gaza. the majority of the hostages are men. it is unclear how many of them are israeli soldiers. >> david, also unclear how many are actually still alive. the question is, right now, based on your reporting, what is going on in doha? are the negotiations continuing? is there any optimism that there may be continued negotiations and more joyous scenes of hostages being released? >> joe, the mood in doha as of

tuesday was pretty positive. they thought they had a program, a set of categories for additional releases. they were beginning to talk about the particular details of how many would be in each group, how many palestinian prisoners would be free for each group of israelis. hamas seemed to have said they were prepared to release israeli military hostages, the biggest prize of all. at that point, it seemed hopeful. the problem negotiators understood then, and that is staring us in the face, is that israel was determined to continue this conflict when the pause ended and continue this campaign to destroy hamas. that has not changed. netanyahu couldn't have made it clearer in his meetings with blinken, that he has sworn to destroy hamas. blinken was trying to limit in the next phase the civilian casualties, but you can see

netanyahu's determination continues. i'm sure they'll go back to work in the following hours and days to see if they can resume it. for now, i think the guns are going to be roaring. >> ed, you look at the news, again, that is just shocking. israelis and, of course, people across the globe that actually were in netanyahu's government, knew about this plan for a year, had the details of it. >> in print. >> the specific details for a year. had the blueprint for it. again, continued to not only mishandle the initial surge, but then sat back and did nothing for hours, hour after hour after hour, people were calling for help. netanyahu's government couldn't get the military, couldn't get anybody to go down to save these lives of these people who were being terrorized. so the question is, where is the

pressure for netanyahu? is it to start bombing again, or is it to have israelis continue to see men, women, children released from captivity? i actually think this news would put even more pressure on the man whose government so badly muffed everything. >> i mean, how distracted he must have been. >> to get more hostages, more israelis home. >> distracted and, of course, you know, the bulk of the israeli forces were dealing with fighting fires in the west bank because of, you know, incidents with settlers. they weren't in gaza. it's not only that they weren't -- >> by the way, that wasn't -- that wasn't just this chance thing. >> no. >> this was calculated by netanyahu. this was all calculated by netanyahu to win political supporters in the west bank by

supporting extremist settlers in the west bank. so he kept his focus on the west bank, delegitimizing the palestinian authority while supporting extremist settlers that made things worse in the west bank. >> indeed. i mean, this is -- >> i mean, we have to tell the truth. >> to be absolutely -- >> we have to tell the truth. that's what he was doing. >> that's what he was doing. >> that's why his eye was off the ball, and that's why when he knows what's coming, says, oh, no, they won't do that. we're going to keep focusing on -- >> just aspirational. >> -- supporting extremist settlers in the west bank because that helps netanyahu with his religious extremist base. >> it's not just that the majority of the idf resources were focused on the fire fighting in the west bank, it's that the gaza brigade was in the west bank. the level of negligence here exposed by "the new york times." they knew the intelligence, they

clearly didn't believe that hamas was capable of doing this, operation jericho walls, i believe it was called. >> yeah. >> they had actually stopped listening in on hamas operators. they had discontinued an eavesdropping campaign because they weren't taking it seriously. that's how negligent they are. there is a reason why netanyahu -- >> again -- >> -- has -- >> again, we have to be clear here. it's not that they weren't taking it seriously. it's that they were focused on the west bank for netanyahu's political survival. >> yes. >> because he has three indictments and has to stay in power or he goes to jail. so paying attention to gaza was politically inconvenient for him. focusing on the west bank helped him with his religious extremist settlers, helped him with religious extremist groups, helped him stay in office, helped him stay out of jail. let's be clear here, they have a

blueprint to slaughter, to massacre israelis, and what do they do? they stop listening in. >> they stop listening in. and even before these revelations, the trust level of the israeli public in netanyahu had dropped to single digits. this is a wartime leader getting 4% public trust according to israeli opinion surveys. i don't know whether you can go down to zero. he has no credibility as a war leader. even his supporters understand his culpability, his negligence, and the element of design in destroying the palestinian authority in the west bank and stoking up hamas over a period of many, many years. >> let's go into the why here a little deeper. "the new york times" report, that israel knew hamas was planning a wide-scale assault a year before the october 7th terrorist attack, one year. according to "the times,"

israeli officials obtained an approximaty 40-page document which they code named, as ed said, jericho wa. it outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people, probably many more. "the times" writes, "israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for hamas to carry out. earlier this morning, israeli defense forces responded to the report, writing in a statement, quote, the idf is currently focussed on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organization, hamas. questions of this kind will be looked at into a later stage." i will say, joe, that has been the answer from benjamin netanyahu and his people every step of the way. we'll talk about this later. >> the problem with that is, and we're going to talk to jackie about this soon --

>> and the reporter behind this piece. >> right. the problem with that is israel needs u.s. funding. we need to know what we're funding. are we funding benjamin netanyahu? are we funding his designs to stay in power? are we funding an operation where we have to look and guess, okay, well, is this in the best interest of the israeli people, or is this in the best interest of a prime minister who deliberately focused on the west bank? deliberately turned a blind eye to this plan for a year? a year, where it's specifically laid out. so i'm not so sure that congress and the president want to approve even more money for israel until we know that there's actually somebody running israel that even the israelis support. the israelis don't trust benjamin netanyahu. the region doesn't trust

benjamin netanyahu. political leaders in the united states don't trust benjamin netanyahu. there's not really a later. later is now. let's bring in right now one of the authors of this explosive report, staff writer for "the new york times" magazine and author of "rise and kill first," a secret story of israel's targeted assassinations. ronen, that is a perfect jumping off point. i'll say the united states, i'm sure in israel, across the world, we've always looked at the mossad, at the idf, as next level, as the best of the best. oh, that was a mossad operation. oh, the mossad always gets their man or their woman. we see it in movies. we read about it in books. they've been -- israelis, militarily and in the intel community, have been painted to be 7 foot giants.

here, in your report, the u.s. would say they're like mr. mugu with tragic consequences. they had the plans for a year and did nothing. tell us about your reporting. >> sometimes, to follow your line, mentioning books, movies, and tv series, turns out that the israeli james bond is not much. what we saw was the biggest intelligence blunder in 50 years and a day. i think it was not just any date. in '73, there was a massive intelligence failure. it was a day after the 6th of

october, so the 7th of october, which turned out to be the darkest day in the history of israel. much darker than even the occupying. the toll of death is the highest since the holocaust. the intelligence blunder, just to put this very concise, and just for one minute, please, putting benjamin netanyahu aside, intelligence blunder focuses on two main fiascos leading to the third. the first one was a total inability to assess what is in hamas' mind. what is in sinwar's mind, the leader of hamas. israel thought he is about being a government, being the ruler of a small state, a state he understands. he cannot go into a war with

israel because he will lose that state. israel got it wrong. this is one. israeli intelligence got it wrong. it was also benjamin netanyahu who got it wrong. i'll bring him in for a minute, back. he wanted to weaken the palestinian authority, not considered as a partner. he allowed money coming from qatar and others. israel thought that hamas is deterred. national security adviser to benjamin netanyahu, five days before, said hamas is afraid of israel. hamas would not go to another defiance. they learned their lesson, he said in a public interview to israel radio. the second was about their capabilities, not the intentions but the capabilities. my friend and colleague at "the new york times" and myself who published this story you mentioned, a little more than a

year before, israeli intelligence was able to get the detailed plan of the attack that hamas was planning for a long time, about 40 pages. they code named this, the israelis, jericho wall. it's about breaking a wall. it's about breaking the wall separating gaza and israel, destroying the front, ramping the gaza division headquarters, killing the soldiers, and allowing many, many other hundreds of hamas militants to storm into israel and kill civilians, kill children, kill soldiers. we know how it ended. but if you look at the plan, it's amazing, it's shocking, both as a journalist and as an israeli, the extent of knowledge that hamas had about israel.

about the israeli secret fortification at the border. i'm sure that one day we will know how they got this information, but this was not open sources. please. >> mika. >> all right. we're just going to put up here some of what was seen in that report, up on the screen. this is from "the new york times." israel knewhamas' attack plan, again, more than a year ago. "officials privately concede that, had the military taken these warnings seriously and redirected significant reinforcements, hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. the document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automitt mhine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into israel en masse, in paragliders, in motorcycles, and on foot, all of which happened on october 7th." >> david -- >> played out exactly to the

tee. >> david, just shocking that even five days before this attack, netanyahu and his cabinet were saying, quote, hamas is afraid of israel. >> so they got it wrong at every level. it's clear that the intelligence failure was deep in the israeli agencies, that political leadership all the way up to netanyahu was part of that misreading. i want to ask ronen, ronen, this is a stunning piece of journalism. i want to ask you whether the prime minister, bibi, was briefed himself on jericho wall in this process. a second question, your reporting describes an analyst who got it right while everybody else was ignoring this intelligence. there was a woman who said, "this is a plan for war.

they're coming after us." she took it seriously. tell us a little bit more about her and why people didn't listen to her. >> when jericho wall was obtained, super secret way to have a copy from hamas, this was the most updated copy of a plan that they started to devise in 2012. made it more and more precise based on more and more accurate intelligence. israeli intelligence, both military intelligence and the southern command intelligence, looked at that. they did not regard it, but they said, this is sort of a dream, an aspirational plan. this is where hamas wants to be, not where they're able to be. this plan will detail how 1,680

hamas commandos would cross the border in 60 different places. israeli intelligence said they can only have 70 cross in two places, so the gap was significant. nobody saw that the gap is diminishing, except for one person. a veteran analyst who warned that they're closing the gap. she didn't know that they're going to attack. this is the part of the intentions. but she said, "they will have the capability." the other intelligence officers just pushed back and said, "no, this is imaginative." she even said, "we are closing into the 50th anniversary for the yom kippur war." in the southern of israel, everyone thought it was imaginetory that they would cross the canal. we should not patronage other forces. we should treat the enemy as they should be treated. >> wow. >> all right. >> ronen bergman of "the new

york times," thank you very much for that reporting this morning. incredible. >> it really is. it talked about them being, instead of the mossad that they'd always been built up to be in the idf, a group of inspector clouseaus, a massive intelligence failure, the darkest day in israel's history, and they had the inability to assess hamas' mind. i don't say this, jackie, with any glibness at all, but you get the sense from his reporting, there were a bunch of men running around with their chests stuck out, going, "we're israel. they're afraid of us. they're not going to touch us. they couldn't do this." >> "this is aspirational." >> "they're weak. we're strong." one woman analyst, as david pointed out, that said, "no, this could happen. we need to be aware of the anniversary that's coming up, the 50th anniversary of the yom

kippur war." she was right. everybody else was wrong. >> reading this bombshell report from ronen and adam goldman last night, i read it several times and kept stopping at the fact this analyst was a woman. there was a series of reporting leading up to this in a similar vein, not on this blueprint exactly, but about all these female commanders who were watching over the border in advance of this attack, reporting back to their bosses that they were watching hamas practice these assaults, and they were dismissed time and time again. so there are so many lingering questions here, but this is certainly a big black eye for netanyahu and his government, especially as the congress and the biden administration have yet to -- >> can you talk about that from your reporting on the hill? can you talk about the funding, and what does this do about the funding? again, for people on the hill

who are already skeptical, they're, what, going to fund a government who knew what was coming for a year and did nothing and let their people get slaughtered? is that what we're funding? >> there are no democrats out publicly against this additional package of $14 billion that the administration is asking for, but there are lots of concerns that are cropping up in my conversations with lawmakers this week. there are complaints that the u.s. is not tracking civilian deaths of palestinians with u.s.-sourced bombs. that the rules don't apply when it comes to how we loan money and resources to our ally, who i believe we give them more money than any other foreign nation in the world. one democratic lawmaker was telling me in a briefing prior to thanksgiving, they were asking department of defense and cia briefers about the exact numbers of how many hamas militants they have killed throughout this bombing so far.

the briefers couldn't even give them specifics. so, you know, this is obviously extremely political tenuous. i don't think you're going to immediately hear some of these big democrats who are involved, primarily in these conversations, come out against the funding. >> right. >> but people want more strings attached. they don't want to call them conditions. that's a loaded word but -- >> i think biden's trip to israel and sitting in on the war cabinet meeting was, in one way, telegraphing to bibi netanyahu that he's got his eyes on him, and this has got to get straightened out in terms of how you're running this place. and i need to see what's going on here. now you see why. with warnings dismissed, women analysts dismissed, as these leaders in israel, benjamin netanyahu specifically, extremely distracted over a long period of time, facing indictments over a long period of time, perhaps the eye off the ball. >> yeah, the bbc had the same

reporting a week ago about these female border guards who had been watching over what was happening. even a month ago, they'd seen a -- a month before the attacks, had seen a senior hamas leader come very close to the wall, a kilometer away, and it raised red flags. all of them summarily dismissed. the fact so many people have been able to put this together shows you the intelligence was there and that it was being reported up. so the netanyahu government had chosen not to listen to all of this. it was interesting. i had a conversation with somebody in morocco a couple days ago after seeing this kind of reporting, saying, but, you know, why did the israelis take ten hours to get to the kibbutzes? >> my god. >> which is a very good question. but in a land of conspiracy theories, it's quickly being translated into, the israelis knew this was going to happen and allowed it to happen. >> and why? why would they do that? >> because, you know, conspiracies run wild through the middle east. i grew up in the middle east, and it is an area of the world where there are a lot of conspiracy theories.

you know, the implication is going around these countries that israel somehow knew this was going to happen, turned a blind eye, allowed it to happen for their own nefarious means. >> oh. >> if you're going with conspiracy theories, in my mind, you go with the screw-up. i don't buy the conspiracy theory, but it is interesting how this intelligence, the failure in the intelligence is already being weaponized in the middle east to cast blame on israel. >> i don't buy the conspiracy theory, but if you want to talk about the series of mistakes that netanyahu's government made, this is an extraordinary start. just as extraordinary, or i find even more extraordinary, the fact that israelis were getting slaughtered, were getting raped, were getting tortured for seven hours. >> yeah. >> seven hours in a small country before anybody came to their aid. children were hiding in shelters for 14 hours after seeing their

parents shot, and nobody came. >> people were calling out. >> there was no explanation. there is no explanation, no good explanation for that. david, i want to just -- i'm sorry, maybe continue to pick away at a scar here. you had said when this war began, that israel had to fight the war with the first day after the war in mind. now, i bring this up and have several times the last couple weeks because after the attacks, i said, this is like 9/11. we'll talk about, you know, the details in a few weeks. this is a terror attack. we mourn the terror attack as a nation. we support the israelis. we still support the israelis, but the idea we're going to

continue to support netanyahu's government and have them say, we'll get to it when we get to it, the united states could say that after 9/11. because the united states was fighting that war. we had allies, but we were funding the overwhelming majority of it. the israelis know it, certainly our enemies across the middle east know it. we are the primary funder of israel, and we are propping israel up so they can continue this fight, not only against hamas but for their very existence. you see something like this, you keep looking at the mistakes of the netanyahu government. and let me add, you look at the chaos in the west bank that lay all at the feet of benjamin netanyahu and his policies over the past ten years. people, listen closely. i didn't blame his policies for the attack in gaza, but the chaos in the west bank that

threatens any peace process moving forward, and also threatens another, second front in this war, possibly a third front in this war. the united states has the right to say, if we're going to continue propping up your government, if you don't have faith in this guy who knew this was coming a year away, we need a better partner. benjamin netanyahu is not that partner. when do we get to that point? if i were in congress, this is what i'd be saying. if i'm saying it as one of the biggest supporters of israel, then there's got to be a lot of other people saying it. we're not going to throw money down a rat hole for a government that knew this was coming for a year and didn't do anything. >> so i trust people in israel are watching this show and hearing your voice and that of

people in congress, on the hill, saying much the same thing. it is a situation where there is fundamental american concern about israeli handling of the war, in particular, the prime minister's. having come back from israel not long ago, israelis are as angry as bibi netanyahu as you are. popularity ratings just collapsed, and they feel a deep sense of shame as they look at what happened on october 7th. >> by the way, david, if his approval ratings were at 75%, i wouldn't be saying this. because i trust israelis to defend israelis. people are always telling israelis how to defend themselves. that's their business. in this case, when there is a leader that is this negligent and did things that led to this slaughter, knew this slaughter was coming, then, at that point, i think we americans have a right to say this. >> the only thing that i'd say

as a caution, israel really has been rocked by what happened. they never imagined that this kind of slaughter could happen, that they'd be so slow to react. >> how do they respond to this? >> so you're -- >> how do they -- >> by -- >> israelis could never imagine it. we could never imagine it. >> so -- >> we looked at this like we saw the twin towers when they were going down. >> took seven hours to get there. >> never imagined it. it'd be as if the firefighters and the nypd waited seven hours to get down to the burning towers. >> absolutely. so what this says to me is, the united states has a special responsibility, that blinken, our secretary of state, is trying to exercise now, to express tough love, to be firm, not to let mistakes deepen. you know, we made mistakes before 9/11. we didn't see it coming, just as israel made mistakes before october 7. they didn't see it coming. and we made mistakes after.

we overreacted. we did the wrong things. you know, we created more enemies than we were killing. that seems to be happening now. i think part of what blinken wants to say is, we see the mistakes you made before, but it's the mistakes you're making now that we want to prevent. >> right. >> don't overreact. don't do what we did. that was biden's message when he went there. i'm sure blinken is saying it again. >> but are they listening? >> you know, when you say "they," i just want to say one final thing. in israel, i met some outstanding military commanders. you know, they look like inspector clouseau in this report, but don't forget, as in the u.s. military, these are people of very high quality, who are going to lead israel out of this mess. >> david, for a year -- >> and get -- >> for a year, david, to put context for this, for a year, i was hearing from people in israel, from fierce defenders

and friends of israel, netanyahu is screwing up the cabinet. he is screwing up the military. he is screwing up the intel services. he is bringing in right-wing religious zealots who know nothing of defending israel. >> he's not talking about the military leaders you were talking about. >> david knows. >> those men and women are still there. >> right. they were just pushed to the side -- >> they were just -- >> -- by netanyahu. >> thank you. >> think of the woman who kept saying in the intelligence reports, "this is real. this is real. they're coming." that woman is still there doing her job. >> i mean, even since october the 7th, the israelis failed to answer the questions, what's happening in the west bank? why have we got ourselves into a situation now where hamas' approval ratings are rising in the west bank? because they are the only group that managed to get our prisoners released. settlers are not being controlled in the west bank, and

the number of attacks against palestinians are being picked up. there are things the israeli government could be doing even now. is the american government not having success in reigning them in in the west bank? >> we'll see. ahead on "morning joe," we have a lot to cover on capitol hill, including jackie's reporting on why donald trump did not intervene during the effort to remove kevin mccarthy as house speaker. maybe he was depressed and not eating. plus, it could be the final day in congress for republican george santos. his colleagues are set to vote on a resolution to expel him from the house. and new signs senator tommy tuberville might be ready to end his blockade on hundreds of military promotions. >> boy, this is a -- >> it'd be the end to one of the stupidest stunts in capitol hill history. >> kevin mccarthy, george santos, and tommy tuberville.

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a lot going on on capitol hill at 38 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." jackie alemany, you have a bunch of reporting for us. i want to know if george santos has any chance of surviving today and staying in congress. and tuberville giving in? what else? go. >> george santos is very much a question mark. this is someone who i think thinks he was kim kardashian, but in reality, is more of an anna delve, in terms of the criminal conduct. >> that is wonderful. >> pretty good. >> that just came to me organically. >> our demo just popped, 25 to

54. thank you, jackie. >> this is something that speaker johnson isn't even whipping. he said himself that members should vote their conscience. the majority of democrats are probably going to vote to expel him, meaning republicans need around 80 people to get behind this expulsion. there are a number of republicans who feel like they don't want to break precedent here. the only other people in congress who have previously been expelled have been people disloyal to the union during the civil war, then two other members of congress. >> this guy is worth expelling, isn't he? >> he was indicted by the eastern district of new york on a 23 count indictment. we've all read the ethics report. the ethics committee was working on their report for eight months. they obtained 170,000 pages worth of evidence and information. >> just very random question, whose baby was he holding that day? >>trying to figure that out.

>> we'll watch the reality show on netflix. >> that is actually a good question. a lot of people are asking, what is he doing next? is there some dating show for people in prison he can maybe go on? >> sounds great, yeah. >> some reality show, that is a serious question people have been asking him. but it remains to be seen whether or not he's actually going to get expelled today. the house freedom caucus has come out against it. one, they find the ethics committee bias, which is, by the way, equally comprised of democrats and republicans. >> right. >> republicans on the committee unanimously voted to expel him, found him guilty. >> interesting. >> yeah, it's ridiculous to call that bipartisan committee biased. i think that's also for members that will be hit hard by the ethics committee in the future. but -- >> tommy. >> yeah, congress usually are like, we won't support him in the next primary, then we'll

leave it up to the voters. that's always been the mindset. we'll see if they break that precedent here. tommy tuberville, is he beginning to back down? >> he said he wants to get as many people nominated as possible in the coming weeks. he says that there have been some agreements come to strip the language about abortion from the national defense authorization act, which was why he claimed he was holding everything up. but based on reporting from our colleagues who cover the senate, it's actually just frustrations have been boiling over from his own colleagues. >> really getting hammered by republicans, isn't he? >> exactly. people like joni ernst. it's beyond the hawkish lindsey graham types and really started to hit the whole conference. >> finally, a call between mccarthy and trump, tell us about it. was it a wellness check? what are we talking about? >> that's actually a good question that we weren't totally able to get to the bottom to, of

exactly why they were speaking. we were told it was a routine check-up. >> routine check-up. >> making sure the burgers were being delivered on time. >> they both have jobs to do despite mccarthy being ousted from the speaker's seat. but in the course of the call, trump expressed to mccarthy why, exactly, he declined to get people like matt gaetz and the hard line republicans off his back and back down from their plan to remove him from the speakership by pushing forward this motion to vacate. trump said that mccarthy was essentially insufficiently loyal, didn't endorse him, didn't bring to the floor these two bills that trump wanted to expunge his impeachment inquiries. mccarthy after the fact, in recollections, claimed he told trump to -- he said, "f-you." he's said this before. this is a similar mccarthy story we've heard, sort of the

discrepanies between his recollections of his private conversation with trump versus what he actually said. mccarthy's people said he didn't curse him out. >> no, he didn't. >> we talked to people who say he has. >> ed, this is an ongoing routine by kevin mccarthy, who claims the -- to third parties that he screamed at trump, told him to blank off, that he yelled at him on january 6th, "you don't f with me," et cetera. it never squares up. we never hear him saying that publicly. never hear him talking -- if he talks stuff about trump, he backs down the next day. >> goes to visit him. >> i don't believe a word of it. i'm very excited by the risk here, using terms like "f-you." we're getting close to the -- >> i don't believe a word either. >> i don't believe a word.

mccarthy to trump, no. george santos is likelier to have a truthful resume than that to be true. >> one of the best things said on january 6th, speaking of liz cheney, was when a certain member of the republican congress, with jim jordan, put his hand on her arm to help her and she goes, "get your hand off of you. you're responsibility for this." >> you did this. >> "you did this." >> all right. "the washington post"'s jackie alemany. thank you very much. >> thank you, jackie. >> happy friday. thanks, guys. >> thanks for the pop culture references. >> helps us. >> anytime. >> boosts your cred a great deal. the top democrat in the house calls out the republicans for their lack of legislative achievements. >> is that chip roy? >> well, he was quoted. >> okay. >> it's hakeem jeffries. all right. we'll also bring chris matthews into the conversation.

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stealing their basic supplies.

last winter, russia sought to destroy ukraine's critical infrastructure, the energy infrastructure, and deprive the ukrainian people of heat and electricity at the coldest time of the year. the russia tried to break the will of the ukrainian people but, of course, it failed. as we head into yet another winter, we expect that cruel tac and again try to destroy ukraine's critical energy infrastructure. within the last couple days, we've seen air strikes taken by the russians that seem to be going after the kind of defensive systems the ukrainians have in place to protect their energy infrastructure. >> national security spokesperson john kirby warning the united states expects russia will again target ukrainian energy infrastructure this winter. last winter, rather than limit

the fighting to the battlefield, russian forces launched attacks throughout ukraine aimed at power stations and energy sources, trying to cut the power to both military targets and civilian populations. joining us now is poland's former foreign minister and minister of national defense. he's a current member of the european parliament and chair of the delegation for relations with the united states. it's really good to have you here on the set with us. >> great to have you here. can we talk first, it's been a while, but talk about the significance of poland's election. >> wow. >> we think one of the most important elections at least here, stateside, in europe, in quite some time. >> we had backsliding on rule of law in poland, and we managed to defeat the populists. it happened through a huge turnout, unprecedented.

communist was in 1989, the turnout was 63%. this time, turnout was 74%. >> what do you think made the difference? most people thought -- >> it wasn't going to happen. >> -- the law and justice party would probably win because they had all the controls of the government, the media. >> yeah. >> outside observers would say, well, they basically control all of the levers. they should be winning this, but they didn't. what happened? >> the former prime minister of poland turned and put together a coalition. he very effectively mobilized the polish people against the corruption, against taking us out of the european union. that, i think, in the end is what the election was about. we want to stay part of the west and don't want some authoritarian experiment. >> i'll tell you, ed -- >> that was something. >> -- traveling around poland, going from warsaw, down to auschwitz, you really could see

the impact of the eu and the funding. extraordinary difference. >> well, one thing that i think is relevant in the american context is that the outgoing government imposed the harshest anti-abortion law in europe in poland. >> that's right. >> young women turned out to vote because they said, "enough is enough." >> right. >> what i'm really interested in, donald tusk, your leader, spent a year going around and touching people, right, basically speaking to people, spending weeks in different provinces, getting around the state media monopoly of the law and justice party. through spending time on the ground and you getting this extraordinary turnout, 85% in warsaw, people understood what was at stake in the polish election. what lessons do you think we can take this side of the atlantic for 2024? >> well, electoral systems matter. mobilization matters.

a piece of luck also matters. >> yeah. >> that being? >> well, the polish populists gained power because one party didn't make the threshold back in 2015. this time, we all got into parliament, and that's why we have a majority. so institutions, personalities, and shaping the issue. you win or lose depending on what the people think the election is about. sometimes when it is about cultural issues, you lose. when it's about the economy or about geopolitical orientation, in this case, we won. >> yeah. >> david? >> we read about war weariness in europe, about the ukraine war, and even in ukraine itself. when i was there six weeks ago, people seemed exhausted by the war. is that same phenomenon happening in poland? do you find pols who were so

supportive of zelenskyy and ukraine beginning to flag in their enthusiasm, or is it as strong as it was? >> it was easy to support ukraine when they were winning. the ukrainians are the only ones who are entitled to feel tired because they're actually losing people. it's their cities that are being bombed by the russians. we have not made huge sacrifices. you know, our contribution on both sides of the atlantic about the same, about $79 billion when you count the american contribution and add up brussels, plus what the member states are long. you know, you are, what, a $14 trillion economy? so are we. these are not huge funds. if putin conquers ukraine, the bill for that will be much, much higher. we need to support ukraine in time for them to be able to recover their territory and end this war, and we need to do it for the sake of ukraine, for the same of principle, that you cannot grab other people's land

across an international border, and also as a demonstration to other authoritarians. >> exactly. >> that recovering what you regard as a renegade province is harder than you think. >> even by ukraine's own expectations, this offsive hasn't gone well. by some reports, they've got less than 1% of the territory that was taken from them back again. as they look to try to make sure that the americans don't give up on ukraine because of what you've just been saying, does it seem to you that there are any messages, that those who are in favor of supporting ukraine, both the republican and democrats parties, and also in the white house, could be making to the american people that they're not making yet? is there a way to reach american voters that would be more successful than anything that has been tried so far? that seems to be key to maintaining support up on the hill. >> first of all, we are grateful to the united states and personally to president biden for taking the right decision and standing up for freedom and

for ukraine. secondly, the ukrainians have already destroyed about half of the russian army at the expense of 5% of a u.s. annual defense budget. it's a really good economic ratio. remember, most of the armaments supplied to ukraine are manufactured in the united states. >> say that again. give our viewers that statistic. >> manufactured in the united states. >> about the percentage of the russian army destroyed. >> well, i mean, the ukrainians have been fighting, first of all, recovered about half of the originally conquered territory. and they're dying and depleting the resources of an aggressive genocidal dictator. we owe them. you know, if the u.n., if the international order is to mean anything, we need to supply the victim of aggression with the means to address the crime that

has been committed in the international arena. >> having taken out half of the russian military with 5% of the annual u.s. defense budget, this is good value for money, right? >> it is. but we have the same problem on both sides of the atlantic. we have not put our defense industries on a crisis footing. the russians have put their defense on a war footing. >> right. >> yeah, we are richer, but we are not making enough equipment and ammunition. >> right. >> we should address that. >> the former polish foreign minister, thank you very much for joining us here on set. it's great to see you. >> great to have you here. still ahead, we're getting -- >> want to ask him to take care of mark? >> say hi to my brother. >> we are grateful for a competent u.s. ambassador. >> yes, he is having a good time and behaving himself. >> he has been very good. >> very good, okay. we shall see. >> high praise.

he doesn't give high praise. >> no. >> most pols don't. still ahead -- >> tough. >> -- we're getting an idea of what donald trump wants to do with the u.s. military if he is elected to a second term. he wants to use it on american soil. we'll discuss his aggressive agenda that has both military and legal experts very concerned. we're back in two minutes. taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy. only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. with a partner that puts you first. our financial planning tools and advice can help you prepare for today's longer retirement. hi mom. that's the value of ownership.

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i want my republican colleagues to give me one thing, one that i can campaign on and say we did. one! anybody sitting in the complex, if you want to come down to the floor and explain to me one material, meaningful, significant thing the republican majority has done besides, "well, i guess it's not as bad as the democrats." >> house republicans have now been in the majority for a little under a year. they have nothing to show the american people that they have accomplished on behalf of the american people. zero. don't take my word for it. just ask chip roy who made it explicitly clear that the house republican majority has done nothing to meet the needs of the american people. >> house minority leader hakeem

jeffries calling out his republican colleagues yesterday for what he says is their failure to address the needs of the american people. referring to those comments you heard at the top there by texas republican chip roy earlier this month about his own party. joining the conversation this hour, we have chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker. former msnbc host chris matthews is here. staff writer at "the atlantic," mark leibovich. and opinion editor at "the washington post," alexi mccammond joins the table. good to have you all on board. >> we have a lot to talk about. this is a huge day. >> before we got on, we started talking about henry kissinger. >> no. >> i wish we kept ed luce here to talk, as well. peter, you wrote about henry kissinger, how he was active, a player on the world stage all the way until the end. i think mika was very surprised by the reaction yesterday to

kissinger after seeing how the reaction was to her father's passing, which was all almost unanimously positive. even the russians figured out something nice to say about him. they might have not always agreed with him, which is a nice way to put, "he tried to destroy us for 60 years but" -- with kissinger, boy, it was harsh. >> you were surprised a little, too. >> i knew it was going to be rough, but it was, for a guy that dominated the world stage so long, there were some sins that, political sins he couldn't outrun. >> divisive in life and divisive in death. it is interesting that people are willing to take off after him right away. there's not even -- usually, there's a pause. we say the nice things, then a couple days, yeah, but don't forget though. the don't forget were up front. don't forget laos and cambodia, bangladesh. it's interesting, and it may be

partly because of the moment with hamas and the progressive left which is out there, very active on the college campuses and so forth, seeing a parallel. i talk with people on campuses, and they say what's happening reminds them of vietnam. it is an echo right now of that generation, the protest they had against nixon and kissinger, the things going on then. >> chris, this was your time when you were on college campuses, when you were following the vietnam war closely. you know, ken burns' documentary showed how jfk, before he got assassinated, knew we couldn't win in vietnam, but said, it's on recording, "i can't be the one that pulls this out. we can do it after the election." then he is assassinated. lbj said, "we can't win this thing. we'll never be able to win this war, but i'm not going to be the one to pull us out." nixon and kissinger said the same thing, but when nixon got

into office, we always hear about the 57,000 dead. we don't realize the majority of those dead came after kissinger and nixon's cynical viewpoint. we can't win this war, but we're not going to be the ones seen as surrendering to the communists. >> you're so right. the last speech kennedy was going to give in texas that day, that day in texas, was a very much, "we're going to fight for vietnam, we have to." it was, "we're going to stick this out." the thing about kissinger which i do hold against him, he's the one that got nixon riled up about the pentagon papers. they were going to find out about my secret trips to china and everything. it was nothing in there really hurting nixon. that was all about johnson and kennedy and eisenhower. it was what had happened before, and nixon should have said, "everybody, read this document." they didn't. the other thing he did is what you said, '69, they didn't recognize something that i don't

think even the anti-war people knew. the vietnamese weren't going to give up. you can have your prisoners back. it was a terrible war. one thing about the war that nobody focuses on, pows, only the fliers, only ones in airplanes were saved. what happened to the guys caught in the jungle? all those guys that were killed, they were all killed! there's no prisoners of war in the jungle. they were killing each other. we were turning them over to the south vietnamese. it was a horrible, horrible war, where millions of people were killed. as you said, most of our casualties, our kias, were after they went into office. they could have cut the deal up front, but they wouldn't for the same reason that kennedy didn't. they want the second term. >> same reason kennedy didn't. the same reason johnson didn't. they wanted the second term, and they didn't want to be seen as a people surrendering to communists. >> appeasers. who lost vietnam? who lost china? >> you look at ken burns'

documentary, mark, on vietnam. it is the first time, just looking at it front to back, i was like, vietnamese are a people unto themselves. we thought we were fighting moscow and beijing. no, we were fighting the fiercest nationalist fighters we could ever imagine. when you talk to retired air force generals and you talk to retired army generals who fought the war, they all said, i would have been proud to fight aside any one of those people. they were just the most extraordinary fighters ever. we didn't know that. but nixon did. kissinger did. lbj did. kennedy did. they all knew, we were never going to win that war. they said it. >> they did. look, the layers of denial were so deep there.

and the thing, when you hear, like, in the ken burns' documentary you mentioned, i mean, the exhaustion of that era becomes so apparent when you watch that. we, i think -- people even now, given the mythology of vietnam over so many years, still underestimate the hold that that war had over so many years. i mean, over a long period of time in this culture. even now, when people talk about the middle east, you know, the day-to-day political conversation, they forget that, not only did this have a day-to-day hold over what people talked about in washington, but, like, families, people dying. most people, and this was a big class divide then, most people knew someone who this was intimately and often fatally affected. >> when i first started campaigning 30 years ago, i got home after the first day of knocking on doors. my parents said, joey?"

i said, well, you're either on john wayne's side or jane fonda's side, and there is no in between. like, the scars of vietnam were still apparent even knocking on doors. there was this great divide, alexi. you know, what's so surprising is, here we are 30 years later. if you watch the ken burns' documentary, ken burns never mentioned donald trump's name once. never once. but the government's failure in that war shaped an entire generation. baby boomers who, you know, drive through the villages. there are a lot of people who fought in vietnam that are voting trump. >> yeah. as peter said earlier, it is someone who is polarizing in life and death. people aren't mincing words. even younger people who weren't around, who have access to the internet and can do as much research as they want, form opinions about things that matter not just for 2024 but for moving forward.

i think it's important to note, too, how president biden has responded. his statement was pretty interesting. he made sure to note that they disagreed on many occasions. also, president biden, i think, so someone correct me if i'm wrong, is the only president not to invite kissinger to the white house since nixon. this moment we're in, even people who weren't around have opinions, and they're the people who put biden in the white house. he has to be cognisant of that. >> in part, that's because kissinger played a pretty active role in the trump administration. >> well, he did. he played an active role in every administration. there was never a time he didn't have a problem that couldn't be solved by sending henry kissinger, right? that was always the solution. every administration since nixon had to deal with the kissinger issue. he is there in moscow, okay, he's in beijing and who do we do about it? he was helpful, he was an

interlocketer. he saw secretary of state blinken. he was briefed by kissinger a month ago. he got to see bill burns. he got to see jake sullivan. he was part of this. he was also playing the angles. we have a story in our book about trump that's fascinating. the germans talked to kissinger and said, what do we do about trump? he doesn't like it. he said, see kushner. he'll reassure you. but he'd told kushner the germans are nervous, so don't reassure them. keep them on edge. it's to your advantage to keep them on edge. he was playing both sides. that's how he worked, but it worked to his advantage. he is 100 years old, and he is invited by china to come meet with xi jinping, to send a message to the biden administration. >> right. >> how many people in american history are that influential on a world stage at age 100? nobody. >> by the way, chris, you know who kept kissinger at arm's length from the president? mika's dad. >> come on.

>> he wanted to be the special envoy to the middle east for camp david, and dr. brzezinski said to jimmy carter, "here's the deal. if you bring him in, if it fails, it's your fault. if it succeeds, he'll make sure it's his fault." or if it succeeds, he'll make sure it is his win and not yours. jimmy carter said, got it. >> yeah. >> one of the things i do, i go to vietnam about every year, teaching over there. one of the things to go to is the rex hotel. they had the 5:00 follies. every afternoon at 5:00, the press was briefed and told, "we're winning the war." it was as simple as that. now, this is a high-end society, wealth like you can't believe, and 12 million people. the kid spoke in my last class, and he was singing "strangers in the night" to me. because it's so strange, we're back teaching them now. >> as one does. >> i can't. >> all right.

>> you know -- >> i just accepted it. >> alex got in my ear saying that his parents say it's so shocking to them that people go vacation, honeymoon in vietnam. it's like, you know, my parents went on a missionary trip to japan one time. my mother said she was halfway across the pacific and looked out and saw, you know, japanese, the rising sun, you know, on the plane, and she said she just grabbed the seat. you know, her mind went back to, you know, she was born in '32. she remembered pearl harbor. it was just crazy. yeah, vietnam now, people go there. >> they like it. >> people posting cheap flights to hawaii after the wildfires. this is this cognisant dissonance. israel and hamas ended a seven-day truce in the region.

the iae government says rockets were launched from gaza overnight in the final minutes of the truce. the prime minister's office also claims hamas did not meet its obligation to release all of the women hostages, thereby violating the agreed upon terms of the deal. meanwhile, israeli officials obtained hamas' battle plan for the october 7th terrorist attack more than a year before it occurred. but israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan, considering it was too difficult for hamas to carry out. this is according to a new bombshell report in "the new york times," which reviewed the 40-page translated document that israeli authorities code named jericho wall. the paper reports the plan, which was circulated widely among israeli military and intelligence leaders, outlined, point by point, exactly the kind

of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 pele and the hostage situation, and the ongoing war. while it did not set a specific date for the attack, it described a methodical assault, designed to overwhelm the fortifications around the gaza strip, take over israe cities, and storm key military bases, including a division headquarters. "the times" continues, "hamas followed the blueprint with shocng precision. it called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out security cameras, and automated machine guns alo the border, and gunmen to pour into israel en masse, on paragliders, moisture, and on feet, all which happened on october 7th." according to "the times," it raises questions on how hamas

gathered its intel. there were leaks inside israel's security establishment. the paper notes it is unclear whether prime minister benjamin netanyahu or other top political leaders saw the document. however, "officials privately concede that, had the military taken these warnings seriously and redirected significant reinforcements to the south, where hamas attacked, israel could have blunted the attacks or possibly even prevented them." >> okay, we could continue reading the script, but then, again, we would have read the entire "new york times" article for you. >> but it is so unbelievable. >> we don't want to spoil it for you. no, it is shocking. we had ronen bergman on earlier. adam goldman, also, wrote this extraordinary piece. unbelievable reporting. as ronen told us, you know, netanyahu's top people said five days before the attack, "hamas is afraid of israel.

hamas is afraid of israel." they had the blueprint down to the paragliders used to storm the concert, to rape, kill, savage young israeli jews that were at the concert there. we have been hearing for a year, i've been hearing for a year even before the attack, that netanyahu -- i'll use the words that people say -- netanyahu has surrounded himself with clowns. the secular professionals were pushed out. religious extremists who don't know what they're doing have been pushed in. again, i was hearing this for a year before the attack. this certainly speaks to that. this speaks to an incompetence that is shocking and an incompetence that led directly -- let me say -- an incompetence that led directly to the greatest slaughter of jews since the holocaust. and the incompetence doesn't stop here. by the way, there was one woman who kept saying. >> an analyst.

>> to take this serious. there was an analyst saying, "you better take this seriously." all the men around her ignored her. the incompetence doesn't stop there. you have israelis, children locked away for 14 hours, waiting for the police, waiting for the idf, waiting for anybody to come to rescue them. >> think about the size of israel and the amount of travel that it would take to get so some of these places if you were an emergency worker. >> no more than an hour and a half. >> 40 minutes? >> this would be as if the twin towers were burning and the nypd didn't get there for seven hours. >> that was the analogy i was thinking of as we were reading this, was 9/11. obviously, george w. bush was not surrounded by -- i mean, however you want to characterize the inner circle of the israeli government now or the bush administration in the first term, you know, there were obviously problems with the filtering of information upward to the leaders who could make

decisions on these policy things. but, ultimately, in a case like this, first of all, you hear that and think, how does netanyahu survive something like this? >> i don't know. >> his position was precarious to begin with. this certainly won't help matters. my sense is he does, because that seems to be -- i mean, survival seems to be his mode. ultimately, i mean, this looks really, really bad. also, you sort of wonder, the anger inside israel right now at their own government. i mean, a lot of it is directed outward, but, you know, toward the government, how is this going to play? how will it affect public opinion? >> chris, the anger at netanyahu inside of israel right now is off the charts. i can't imagine how it'll be after this story breaks, that his government knew for a year the specifics, of paragliders breaking through the wall. them arrogantly saying, "ha mags

hamas is afraid of israel." >> in every big city, they're all going to read that headline, talk about it, and have a new an attitude about what happened. i think this is going to go right back to israel. they're going to be reading the headline tomorrow, if they're not already and hearing about it on the rodeo. they're going to be thinking about this. what happened at pearl harbor? why did this happen to us? we had condoleezza rice, remember, she had to read out the al qaeda to attack in the united states in august. okay, there was a problem there. maybe not as clear as this one. >> yeah. >> but this kind of reporting is devastating. >> it's devastating, but it just actually begs the question to be answered now, why it took up to seven hours for people to get aid. why it took up to seven hours, six hours, five hours, four hours, it's all many hours too long. it'd be like, again, you bring

up the 9/11 thing. how do you not respond to an attack and go save people that are 40 minutes from you? 10 minutes, 20 minutes. >> alexi, especially in a nation -- >> it's a choice, it seems. >> -- in a nation where job one is to defend citizens from the terrorists who have said, "we are going to destroy israel." >> and everybody has a cell phone. >> come on. >> two things. we see the lengths to which they're going to get israeli citizens who have been taken hostage back to the country, so where is that same level of national security concerns, you know, a year ago? the second thing, mark said he thought of 9/11 when reading it. i couldn't help but think of president obama when he called isis the jv team, sort of had this hubris about himself with respect to what danger or gnat not they presented. we saw how intense and extreme their movement became after that, infiltrating here in the u.s. and radicalizing people here in the u.s.

that's something that i can't stop thinking about, especially when we think about whatever happens after this conflict. whether it's with hamas or someone else who takes over. >> absolutely. >> there was a social contract with israel. the reason netanyahu has been in office so long is the, "i will protect you. i'm the security prime minister." >> security the is the word he has used. >> absolutely. >> from his first day. >> this is why this is devastating, right? it's much more specific than 9/11. it is more about the failure to live up to what you'd promised to the israeli people. put me back in power despite a corruption trial, defeat, and i'll be the guy. turns out, he had the lack of imagination to realize that hamas was not under control. yes, they got the work permits. didn't mean they wanted to be a government. they wanted to be a terrorist organization. >> peter, in israel, they understand better than we understand here, too, that he kept his eye off of hamas and gaza for political reasons.

>> yeah. >> he had a political republican -- reason to ignore them, so he could focus on the west bank, the extremist settlers who were bulldozing palestinian homes, who were setting up illegal settlements all over the west bank, because that helped him politically. keeping the west bank sort of tamped down with a corrupt leadership, that basically went along, that made more sense than actually keeping your eye on the group. said, "we're going to destroy israel and kill jews." that was the mission. >> he was focusing on iran, saudi arabia, the gulf of states. the biden administration was working to normalize relations between riyadh and jerusalem in a way that would have been transformative for the region. he wasn't paying attention to what was on his own floor. >> you said security. all the time we talked about the two-state solution, when we thought it was going to happen for a while there, all those

times where there were chances of both sides agreeing, he was always talking about the jordan valley. yeah, we'll have a two-state solution, but we're going to control the jordan valley. we'll control the ultimate security of israel, the nation state. we're going to be along the jordan river. in other words, he was focusing on his ability to protect in any situation the israeli people. >> also, you have to say, any conversation about what netanyahu was focusing on at this point has to mention what his existential focus was, which is his own political situation in israel. >> exactly. >> over the judicial reforms, threatening to destroy his presidency. it is not so much about the west bank over here and gaza over here. >> he is also indicted three times. if he stays in office -- >> right. >> -- and focuses on the west bank, if he plays to religious extremists that give him enough seats in the knesset, he can stay in power. he can stay one step ahead of the indictments. he can try to change the laws.

he can go after the supreme court. and he can ignore what is sitting before him for one year. >> and it's why he keeps saying, we'll talk about this later. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump has been talking about using the military in american cities if he were to win a second term. we'll dig into that possibility. plus, comedian bill burr recently pointed out the hypocrisy of trump supporters after his wife was the target of their anger. we'll explain what happened and show you his take. and a programming note as we go to break. this weekend on "sunday today," willie sits down with five-time grammy winner jon batiste to talk about his new album, which is nominated for another six grammys. hear how he found inspiration for his early music in an unexpected place. that's this sunday over on nbc. we'll be right back with more "morning joe."

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chip? at&t business. look at these cities. our great cities, new york city is a crime den. chicago is a crime den. you look at these great cities. los angeles, san francisco, you look at what's happening to our country. we cannot let it happen any longer. one of the other things i'll do, because, you know, you're supposed to not be involved in that, you have to be asked by the governor or the mayor to come in, the next time, i'm not waiting. one of the things i did was let them run it, and we're going to show how bad a job they do. well, we did that. we don't have to wait any longer. >> what are you doing? >> that was -- >> i can't. >> i just have to say something

first. so, donald trump and republicans talk about crime dens in new york city. they talk about crime dens in chicago. it reminds me of the hearing we saw earlier this week, where john kennedy, senator john kennedy -- >> oh, my. >> -- was talking about the shooting range in chicago. a yale professor corrected him and said, "actually, death rates are higher per capita in mississippi and alabama." in fact, if you look, in nine out of ten trump states, you have the top ten deadliest places to be with firearms. it's just so funny when he talks about a crime den in chicago and new york city. you know what? he ought to visit louisiana. monroe, louisiana, most dangerous city, i think i read a couple months ago, in america. jacksonville. look at the top ten. mississippi, louisiana.

number three is new mexico. now, that's the one blue state. four is alabama. five is wyoming. six is -- where is six? what do we got for six here? >> alaska. >> wow. >> seven, montana. eight, arkansas. nine, missouri. ten, tennessee. look at those red states. all of those red states have a higher death rate by guns per capita than new york, than california, and even oregon. if you're trailing behind oregon, you've got problems. >> yeah. i know we're winding and weaving like we always do on "morning joe," but can i show you the senator senator bite? >> thank you, mika. i'd love that. >> you're welcome. >> why do you think that chicago has become america's largest outdoor shooting range?

do you think it's because of chicago citizens who have no criminal record, but who have, lawfully, a gun in their home for protection, or perhaps for hunting? or do you think it's because of a finite group of criminals who have rap sheets as long as king kong's arm? >> so mississippi, louisiana, and missouri actually have higher firearm death rates. obviously, there's certain -- >> what about chicago? >> i don't live in chicago. it's not my primary area of research. >> you don't have an opinion on that? >> i think there's easy access to firearms combined with environmental conditions, lack of great education. there have actually been studying showing that in green vacant lots, when you repair

abandoned buildings in urban neighborhoods, you see decreases in gunshots, violence, and depression in neighborhoods around them. >> no disrespect, doc, but that sounds a lot like word salad to me. >> well, doesn't sound like word salad, but it sounds like you're trying to talk like you didn't go to oxford. >> when you had the other accent. >> and like you didn't endorse john kerry in 2004, saying, "well, i believe senator john kerry is the best thing this country can do to move forward in the future." >> i wish you were joking. >> i'm not. >> no, you're not. >> i tried going to oxford to buy a t-shirt, and they kicked me off the campus. >> he did not talk like that. >> i am voting for senator john kerry because i believe, in 2004 -- >> where is my latte? >> now, it's like, sounds like word salad. what's so fascinating about

this, mark, is -- >> it'd be fascinating if it wasn't repulsive. >> -- you're trying to drive the lane on lebron james, then getting jammed and knocked to the ground by just this sheer athleticism. then to me going, well, that looked like word salad. like, this yale professor crushed him. >> and kept her cool. >> let's underline the fact -- >> a woman again. >> -- that he's talking about a shooting range in chicago. she points out correctly that his own state has higher death rates per capita. forget about illinois. illinois ranks, like, 25th or 26th. louisiana is in the top five. but louisiana the state has higher death rates per capita for guns than the city of chicago. >> yeah, i'm beginning to think that john kennedy isn't 100% on the level here, given his background, you know, where he's

come from. you know, right now, he looks like just a country lawyer asking a few questions, you know? he doesn't know any better. what's interesting is that democrats have actually, over many years, gotten finally okay about -- or gotten better at pivoting to what the statistics actually are in places like mississippi and louisiana and alabama, after just sort of letting a lot of, you know, frankly, thinly veiled racist sort of attacks on urban america. >> that was not thinly veiled. >> less than thinly veiled sometimes. >> yeah. >> go unanswered. i mean, it was this long-time punching bag. i don't know if this is working, but you saw gavin newsom last night, you know, very quick to pivot back in the direction of gun deaths, specifically murder rates, specifically in florida, which i think isjacksonville, r desantis responded by talking about feces in california. >> he had some map. >> he had a -- >> a weird map. >> is feces map?

>> yeah, a little light reading. he had to travel up to georgia. it was weird. one point, just pulled out this -- >> what? >> look, i don't know. >> come on. >> maybe he pulled it off the internet or something. >> who does that? >> ron desantis, apparently. >> what to you mean a feces map? >> i don't know. >> i need to know. >> that governor newsom lets people leave feces in california. >> infrared. >> infrared? >> i don't know. >> getting back to senator john kennedy who went to oxford, the john kerry supporter who went to oxford, he makes a wild, incorrect assumption about chicago. >> in a racist, rude way. >> the world's biggest shooting range. he is then corrected by a woman who says, "actually, your state has higher death rates per capita than the city of

chicago." then he insults her. >> calling it word salad is telling on himself, that he couldn't understand what she was saying. i mean, when the facts do not back up your own point, then they're suddenly inconvenient to you and don't matter, you're rude or you cherry-pick another set of facts to tell your story. i think what is incredible, not in a good way, is that people cannot hold two truths at the same time. >> that's right. >> they cannot say, yes, there is an issue in my state, and i'm doing x, y, and z to address it because it's a problem, but look how it is out of control here, here, and here. >> right. >> it's as if they don't care about their own folks because they're concerned about black people in chicago. >> frankly. >> that's what they were talking about. jd vance -- >> i want to follow-up -- >> jd vance does it, the accent, you're good at it, but jd vance, howie, they all play this game of, i'm just a working guy.

i'm just out there swinging the pick. these coastal elites, like we talked about yesterday, the coastal elites. >> can we get a picture of jd vance in his little silicon valley vest? >> it's a vest. >> i love silicon valley. i love san francisco. >> he has a book about how weird these people are, and now he's one of them. they play this game of, i'm just a hick. i'm just one of you folks out there. i'm not -- >> i'm mad. >> -- one of those ivy leaguers. >> what are they doing, chris, at the same time? they're giving the biggest tax cuts in history to the richest people in history. >> right. >> to billionaires, to multinational corporations. they're literally taking money from these people. they hate income. >> gavin newsom -- >> they hate -- >> you were talking about -- >> they hate income transfers. >> right. >> unless it is going from middle class and working class americans to the very richest people. >> right. >> in america. it's just ridiculous. >> how does that work?

why does the guy out there who has a rough job, is swinging the pick, physical labor, and he is making what he is making, and there are these guys with zillions of books. why are they still rooting for this guy? >> democrats have to go on the defensive. they sit back while people are talking about chicago, new york, san francisco, this, that, and the other. democrats need to do exactly what we're talking about right now. "hey, senator, guess what? you need to clean up the mess in your home state because you're in the deadliest state for guns." >> yeah. >> "by the way, you have the city that is the deadliest city in america. senator, you have the city, the single city that has the deadliest gunfire, homicide rate in all of america." >> yeah. >> worse than san francisco, worse than chicago, worse than new york, even worse than jacksonville, florida, which is really bad right now. senator, like, democrats need to talk that way.

>> maybe they don't do that at oxford, senator. can chef's kiss at the end, with the oxford. >> it is oxford. >> earlier, we started this conversation talking about donald trump on the campaign trail back in march. talking about how he was prevented as president from using the u.s. military to quail violence in several american cities. the republican frontrunner continues to hint about his plans to expand the u.s. military's role domestically should he win the presidency. >> but not on january 6th. >> no, no, no. >> as "the associated press" reports, trump hasn't spelled out how he might use the military during a second term, though he and his advisors have suggested they'd have wide latitude to call up units, while having the military whin the borders would be a departure from the tradition, the former president has already signalled

an aggressive agenda if he wins from mass deportations to travel bans imposed on muslim majority countries. >> peter baker, also talked about terminated the constitution. >> tv stations. >> talked about assassinating generals. he's talked about banning tv stations that are not sufficiently loyal to him. >> yeah. >> i mean, he says he is going to take over the fcc, bring it inside the white house. and he is going to deploy the military. >> yeah. prosecute the people who criticized him. prosecute john kelly, his former chief of staff. bill barr, his former general. ty cobb. why is he going to prosecute them? there's no crimes, other than they're not loyal to him. what is striking is he is telling us what he is going to do in a second term. >> illegally. >> a lot of people over the years would dismiss trump's more outlandish comments, "well, it's trump being trump. he's trying to get a rise out of the left. he is trying to own the libs,"

which he does. let's face it. a lot of the things he says he never does. but a lot of the things he says he actually does try to do. in the first term, people around him like john kelly, bill barr, and others who tried to restrain him at his most extreme moments, who will not be there in a second term. he'll be surrounded by the people who want him to succeed at the things he's talking about now. do not fool yourself. i just read liz cheney's book, and this is a point she makes. if you think the institutions are going to stop him, it's probably an exercise in wishful thinking. the institutions will not be there. what are the checks on a second term president trump? he won't be afraid of impeachment a third time. republicans made clear they're happy to go along with him, even in private if they think he's dangerous or illegal, what have you. what are the checks on a second term? >> we have liz cheney on the show on tuesday. >> good for you. >> we'll be talking to her about the book. >> you were warning us about the headlines, which i think are so powerful in themselves from "the

new york times." about what israel knew way ahead of time about october 7th. what we're talking about right now. >> we know. >> what trump wants to do. he says he is going to do it. what else do you want, a "mein kampf"? >> he's done a lot already. >> it's written up. count of monte cristo. isn't it? that's who it is. >> before we go to break, i have a couple quick questions. chris, philly or san francisco, eagles or the 49ers? >> jalen hurts. he's unbelievable. >> he is unbelievable. mark leibovich, debating society this weekend, harvard or oxford? [ laughter ] >> oh, yeah, i didn't go to either. i'd say -- >> where did you go? >> your son goes to harvard, no? >> i went to the university of michigan. >> oh, yeah. >> last week, a great week. great sweatshirts. >> is this a good time to say hi

to chad? >> hi, chad. >> want to be on camera for this. >> iowa and the big ten championship game. >> hi, chad. >> we're number two in the nation. should be number one. >> yeah. >> hi, chad. >> everyone should say hi to chad. >> not number one anymore. again, hi, chad, though. >> good. we love chad. >> love chad. >> and his son. >> chris matthews, mark leibovich, alexi mccammond. >> they don't want you on camera. >> they don't like me. everybody in the control room don't like it. >> it's just t.j. >> they don't like me. coming up, the future of the u.s. global health program, responsible for saving millions in lives. that program right now that saved 25 million lives so far is in jeopardy. >> we've been following this. >> because of the republicans. >> the chair of the foreign relations committee, senator ben cardin, joins us to talk about that and more. "morning joe" will be right back. >> a long time. i think you know the answer to that question. i am a democrat. i support senator kerry. i have endorsed senator kerry, as you have, as chris has.

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joanna gaines: discoveries at saint jude helped this kid beat cancer at age two. marget: and now this kid has three kids. chip gaines: and that's what we do at saint jude. subject: give thanks for the healthy kids in your life and give a gift that could last a lifetime.

welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at the white house. the ribbon there, celebrating today. today marks the 35th world aids day, but the occasion comes at a time when continued funding for aids prevention hangs in the balance of a divided congress. according to the white house, the u.s. global health program called pepfar launched by george

w. bush to help the aids epidemic, saved 35 million people around the world, but the program has stalled with some republicans claiming the money might be used to fund abortions. >> that's false. i just have to say that's completely false. >> say that up front. >> this is another tommy tuberville-type tactic to look at things that are happening outside of the pepfar program that they may disagree and try to kill a program that has saved 25 million lives in the name of pro-life. that's -- you talk about the bitter irony of it all. >> new polling out this morning shows that a majority of voters across the board think it is important for the u.s. to continue its commitment to the global aids response. during the creation of pepfar 30 years ago, then-senator joe biden worked across the isle

with his republicansantorum of . dave campbell sat down with that former senator to discuss the challenges today. >> why are we seen having this discussion about abortion and aids relief? >> number one, is a lot of the organizations get funding don't just do medical assistance for people who are in aids, but they do abortions and contraceptives and they do a host of other things. it's always been a tension in this program, and the oversight of how that money is separated and if they are, the transparency is not what it should be. >> is there any way to separate it? get the medicines where they need to go, and have your discussions continue? >> i would love to see the president actually lead on this and step forward and be clear

that, you know, we're -- i'm going to stay consistent with what, you know, donald trump or barack obama and everybody else has done in the past. we're not going to play political games with this program, pushing off his progressive base if you will and say, no. we're going to keep the compromise in place and mike johnson, you know, do the same thing. that's what we need to have happen. president biden, when we worked on this in the senate, he was a very strong supporter of this and he was one of the folks that we worked with to get this done. hopefully he sees this as one of -- as i do, as one of the great accomplishments of my time in the senate and he'll want to preserve this program. i can't imagine he wants to see this program fail under his watch. >> what happens if congress is done for the year and it's not reauthorized? >> the money's still there because the appropriation is there, and the money will be spent, but what will go away is the vital compromise that has kept this a republican and

democrat broadly supported program. it's become a partisan program. i'll go back to, you know, look at the issue of abortion for example. you have when a republican president comes in, they put in the mexico city policy, and that limits funding and when the democrats come in, they get rid of it. >> every time. >> it's back and forth and back and forth. you don't want this program to be like that. it's going to cost lives, and i hope the president realizes that, and doesn't do things that are going to make this a -- every election partisan issue. >> well, unfortunately he's not. the president's not doing that. >> the state department provided a response regarding its pepfar program which reads in part, quote, pepfar does not fund abortions and can did not be used to lobby for or against

abortion, and the biden/harris administration continues to urge congress to pass a clean reauthorization of pepfar as part of our longstanding commitment to ending hiv/aids as a public health threat by 2030, and dr. dave joins us now. he's a contributor to "forbes" on issuing surrounding health care. also with us, democratic senator ben cardin of maryland. he's chair of the senate foreign relations committee and he's out with a new op-ed for msnbc urging his colleagues to renew this world-changing legislation. also joining us, visiting scholar at johns hopkins university, maya rockamore cummings. she's focusing on how marginalized communities continue to bear a disproportionate burden of new infections. >> we saw the state department statement. could not be any clearer. pepfar is not about abortions.

pepfar -- the money can't be used to lobby for abortions or perform abortions. it's about saving lives with aids. >> it's absolutely a fabricated issue. there is no funding for abortion in the pepfar program. it is pro-life. 25 million lives have been saved. >> right. >> i have been to africa. i've seen the people whose lives have been saved as a result of the pepfar program now leading their country. we've seen it provide stability in african nations. we've seen it provide economic prosperity and stronger relations with the united states. this has been a transformational program, bipartisan, sponsored originally by president george w. bush, bipartisan support. >> right. >> this is the first time we've seen a partisan action by those who are trying to make abortion part of it. >> it makes no sense, and doctor, you've written i think three or four articles for "forbes," and you just laid

out what the senator just said. you laid out the fact that abortion is being pulled into this when it doesn't belong there by some republicans in the house. i'm curious though, what about the impact of pepfar going away? >> there are short-term impacts and longer term. in the short-term, it will pull away the confidence in those pepfar-supported countries. in the longer term, it will suppress innovation. it will harm the ability for the programs to be developed and run. you guys all know how hard it is to put a program together. imagine if now you only have a year window instead of five and you're trying to plan programs around kids and teenagers and young adults. it will suppress innovation, an overlooked phenomenon where the funding for new things like preexposure proflack sis. like we've taken ten years ago,

it was about $10,000 per year per patient to treat hiv. now it's about $50, $40 a year. five years from now, if we suppress innovation and money into funding and forthing new products and services, we won't make the same strides. it will reverse itself. it's still a very active epidemic. >> instead of saving lives, people -- >> correct. >> people are dying. >> maya, and you're looking at specifically marginalized communities and how they can be impacted, and of course, you're moderating an event at hopkins about this. >> right. >> tell us all about it. >> we're hosting an event called hiv and the politics of aids. we're looking at the initiative. a lot of people don't know that african americans and latinos have been disproportionately represented amongst the aids population basically since the early '80s, and in the approximately 1987, actually african americans exceeded white

americans in terms of the percentage incidence of hiv amongst the population. this has been a black brown epidemic for quite some time now, and in 2019 out of all new infections, african americans and latinos were 67%. on the international front, we know that, you know, pepfar has done a lot in sub saharan africa, but this argument about abortion is a red herring. we're seeing a continuation of the ultranationalist right wing. some people call it white christian nationalism. efforts to basically go after anything that supports people of color, anything that supports lgbtq communities, anything that supports women, and certainly we know that the minority aids initiative which was created in 1998 by maxine waters in order to address the dispariies and was actually undercut by the

bush -- the george w. bush administration in terms of its ability to actually fund communities of color, particularly minority-led organizations, that we have a problem because we have, i think, racism interceding in our ability to effectively provide care. we know that now the new infections are hitting the south hardest. those state that is refuse to expand medicaid, so we've got a problem in this country. what we did for pepfar was fantastic. we need pepfar for america, and we need it to be nondiscriminatory. so johns hopkins is looking at this today. the center for health disparities and actually leading this under the leadership of dr. darryl gaskin. >> what's fascinating is maya talked about how christian nationalists, extreme right people may be fighting back against pepfar. the great irony of that is george w. bush was moved by his

evangelical faith. >> exactly. >> you look at the people who were around him, evangelicals, and they told him. this is the issue of our time. this is what we need to do as evangelicals. we need to save millions of lives. there's a plague in africa. we need to save millions of lives. >> exactly. >> and so you have people that are claiming to be pro-life trying to kill a program that was inspired by the new testament. >> yeah. that's exactly right. george w. bush calls in his staff. he calls in a guy named tony fauci. he says, what can we do to make a difference? not just down the road with research money on a vaccine. what can we do to make a difference today? tony fauci says, you can save lives by doing what he ended up doing, and you know who's looked at this allegation that this current program is somehow funding abortions or somehow involved in abortions and decided it's not true? george w. bush.

arguably the most pro-life president we have had since reagan, right? genuinely in his gut, donald trump not really pro-life. he did a lot for pro-life interest, but he was not personally pro-life. george w. bush is personally pro-life, and he said, there's nothing to this, and he told the congress this, and yet his fellow republicans aren't listening to him. i'm curious, who are the republicans today who have influence over their colleagues who are blocking this and saying, look. we understand your concerns, and don't worry about it. this is not doing what you think it's doing. who do they listen to if not george w. bush at this point? >> the problem we have is national groups are interfering with i think the common sense of the republicans right now. they're concerned about how they get rated on a vote rather than looking at the facts behind the issue. you're absolutely right. this program has been transformational. it's made a huge difference. if we don't reauthorize, it gives the message that we're not in it to complete the job. we need the partners around the

world to work with us, and if the united states is not there, the concern is whether we will be able to complete the work, and rid the world of hiv/aids. we're working with republicans. i think most realize we need to get this done. we're going to try to find a way forward, but quite frankly, they're concerned about the outside rating groups that say this is against pro-life. >> chair of the senate foreign relations committee, senator ben cardin. "morning joe" chief medical correspondent, dave campbell, thank you for shining a light on this continuously and visiting scholar at johns hopkins university, maya rockingmore cummings, thank you for coming on today. chief white house correspondent, peter baker, thank you as always for your reporting as well. our third hour of "morning joe" continues right now.

that was the moment karen schemm found out her daughter mia was coming home. yesterday, the two were reunited for the first time in nearly two months. the 21-year-old was kidnapped from a music festival on october 7th. unfortunately for dozens of other families, their loved ones remain captives of hamas terrorists and other groups in gaza. this morning, it is not clear when more hostages would be freed. a temporary pause in the fighting between israel and hamas ended yesterday. >> there is much to get to, mika. the front of "the washington post," the pope actually offers a warning to israel over gaza, and "the wall street journal's" front page, right at the fold, you have the israelis planning a year-long manhunt around the globe to kill the militants which is probably what this was

destined to be from the very beginning, but the news that is really, really rattling things in washington, from washington tel aviv is this explosive "new york times" -- >> oh my goodness. >> it's an exclusive that the israelis actually knew of this plan of attack in great specifics for a year. for a year before october the 7th. >> and we'll speak to one of the reporters who broke that story in just a moment. with us, we have associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius, investigations reporter for "the washington post," jacky alemany. >> who will be reporting on donald trump. come on, man. >> he's not eating. he's so depressed. i've got to see him. >> calling him. >> also with us, u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed loose, and katty kay is

making her way to the table as well after way too early duties this morning upstairs. great group this morning. israel and hamas have resumed the fighting in gaza ending a seven-day truce in the region. the israeli government says rockets were launched from gaza overnight in the final minutes of the truce. the prime minister's office also claims hamas did not meet its obligation to release all of the women hostages thereby violating the agreed upon terms of the deal. the truce had been extended and was set to expire at the end of the day yesterday. diplomatic talks to continue the temporary pause in fighting came down to the wire last night, signaling negotiations may have broken down, but international mediators are continuing discussions in qatar, in the hopes of another breakthrough. before the fighting resumed, hamas released eight hostages yesterday. the group consisted of mostly women, and included dual

nationals from mexico, russia, and uruguay. in exchange, israel once again freed 30 palestinian prisoners. hamas released a total of 105 hostages during the seven-day pause in the fighting. israel freed 240 prisoners. it is believed about 137 people are still being held captain iin gaza. that includes a few americans. the majority of the hostages are men. it's unclear how many of them are israeli soldiers. >> and david, also unclear how many are actually still alive. the question is right now based on your reports, what is going on in doha? are the negotiations continuing? is there any optimism that there may be continued negotiations, and more joyous scenes of hostages being released? >> joe, the mood in doha as of tuesday was pretty positive. they thought they had a program, a set of categories for

additional releases. they were beginning to talk about the particular details of how many would be in each group, how many palestinian prisoners would be freed for each group of israelis, and hamas seemed to have said they were prepared to release israeli military hostages, the biggest prize of all. so at that point it seemed -- it seemed hopeful. the problem negotiators understood then, and that's staring us in the face is that israel was determined to continue this conflict when the pause ended, and continue this campaign to destroy hamas. that has not changed. netanyahu couldn't have made it clearer in his meetings with blinken that he has sworn to destroy hamas. blinken has tried to limit in this next phase, the civilian casualties, but you can see netanyahu's determination continues. i'm sure they'll go back to work in the following hours and days to see if they can resume it,

but for now, i think the guns are going to be roaring. >> and ed, you look at the news again that is just shocking. israelis and of course, people across the globe, that actually -- netanyahu's government knew about this plan for a year, had the details of it, the specific details it. >> the blueprint. >> the blueprint for it, and again, they continued to not only mishandle the initial surge, but then sat back and did nothing for hours. hour after hour after hour people were calling for help. netanyahu couldn't get the military, couldn't get anybody to go down and save these lives of these people who were being terrorized. so the question is, where is the pressure for netanyahu? is it to start bombing again?

or is it to have israelis continue to see men, women, children released from captivity? i actually think this news would put even more pressure on the man whose government so badly muffed everything. >> i mean, how distracted he must have been. >> trying to get more israelis home. >> distracted and the bulk of these israeli forces were fighting fires in the west bank because of, you know, digits with settlers, and so they weren't in gaza. it's not only they weren't taking -- >> that wasn't just sort of this chance. >> no. >> this was calculated by netanyahu. this was all calculated by netanyahu to win political supporters in the west bank by supporting extremist settlers in the west bank, and so he kept his focus on the west bank, te

legitimatizing the palestinian authority while supporting extremist settlers that made things worse in the west bank. >> indeed. this is the fruit. >> we have to tet tell the truth. we have to tell the truth. that's what he was doing. >> that's what he was doing. >> that's why his eye was off the ball, and that's why when he knows what's coming from hamas -- oh, no. they won't do that. we're going to keep focusing on supporting -- >> it's a pragsle. >> it's not just the idf that were focused on the idf. it's the gaza brigade that was in the west bank. the level of negligence here exposed by "the new york times," they knew the intelligence and didn't believe that hamas was capable of doing this operation.

i believe they called it operation jericho walls. they stopped listening in on hamas operators. they had discontinued an eavesdropping campaign because they weren't taking it seriously. that's how negligent they are. there is a reason why netanyahu has -- >> again, we have to be clear here. it's not that they weren't taking it seriously. it's that they were focused on the west bank for netanyahu's political survival. >> yes. >> he has three indictments and he has to stay in power or he goes to jail. so -- so paying attention to gaza was politically inconvenient for him. focusing on the west bank helped him with his religious extremist settlers, helped him with religious extremist groups, helped him stay in office, helped him stay out of jail. let's be clear here. they have a blueprint to slaughter, to massacre israelis, and what do they do? they stop listening in. >> they stopped listening in,

and even before these revelations, the trust level of the israeli public in netanyahu had dropped to single digits. this is a wartime leader who's getting 4% public trust according to israeli opinion surveys. this -- i don't know whether you can go down to zero. he has no credibility as a war leader. even his supporters understand his culpability, his negligence, and the element of design in destroying the palestinian authority in the west bank and stoking up hamas over a period of many, many years. >> so let's go into the why here a little deeper into "the new york times" report that israel knew hamas was planning a wide-scale assault a year before the october 7th terrorist attack. one year. according to "the times," israeli officials have obtained an approximately 40-page

document which they named "jericho wall". it named point by point the devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people, probably many more. "the times" writes, israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for hamas to carry out. israeli against forces responded saying, quote, the idf is currently focused on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organization hamas. questions of this kind will be looked at in a later stage. i will say that has been the answer from benjamin netanyahu and his team every step of the way. we'll talk about this later. >> the problem with that is, and we're going to talk to jackie about this very soon -- >> and the reporter behind this piece. >> the problem with that is that israel needs u.s. funding. we need to know what we're

funding. are we funding benjamin netanyahu? are we funding his designs to stay in power? are we funding an operation where we have to look and guess, okay, well, is this in the best interest of the israeli people? to is this in the best interest of a prime minister who deliberately focused on the west bank? deliberately turned a blind eye to this plan for a year, a year where it specifically laid out. so i'm not so sure that congress and the president want to approve even more money for israel until we know that there's actually somebody running israel that even the israelis support. the israelis don't trust benjamin netanyahu. the region doesn't trust benjamin netanyahu. political leaders in the united states don't trust benjamin netanyahu. so there's not really a later.

later is now, and let's bring in right now one of the authors of this explosive report, ronen bergman, and he's an author of "rise and kill first," and it's just a perfect jumping off point because i will say that the united states, i'm sure in israel across the world. we've always looked at the mossad, the idf as next level, as the best of the best. oh, that was a mossad operation. they always get their man or woman. we see it in movies. we read about it in books, and they have been -- israelis militarily and in the intel community have been painted to be 7-foot giants. here in your report, they're, like -- the u.s. would say, like, mr. mcgoo with tragic

consequences. they have the plans for a year and did nothing. tell us about your reporting. >> so sometimes -- good morning. if you follow your line mentioning books and movies and tv series, it turns out that the israeli story is not too far off. what we saw is the biggest intelligence blunder in 50 years in a day. i think people did not coincidentally choose that day. it was a saturday like the yom kippur war, the october war which resulted in a massive intelligence failure. it was a day after the 6th of october, so the 7th of october which turned out to be soon the darkest day in the history of

israel. much darker than even the yom kippur. the total death is the highest since the holocaust. the intelligence blunder, just to put this very concise, and i'm just -- for one minute, please, putting benjamin netanyahu aside, the intelligence blunder focuses on two main fiascos leading to the third. the first one was a total inability to assess what is in hamas' mind. what is in their mind, the leader of hamas in gaza? israel thought he's about being a governor, being the ruler of a small state, but still a state that he understands that he cannot go into his whole war with israel because he will lose that state. the israeli intelligence got a drone and it was also benjamin

netanyahu who got wanted to weaken the palestinian authority, have a fall to israel who would not be considered a partner. he allowed money from qatar and others. israel thought that hamas' deterred, and benjamin netanyahu said, hamas is afraid of israel. hamas would not go to another defiance. they learned their lesson, he said, in a public interview to israeli radio. the second was about their capabilities. not their intentions, but the capabilities, and my friend and colleague at the "new york times" who published this story that you mentioned, a year -- a little more than a year before, israeli intelligence was able to get the detailed plan of the attack that hamas was planning for a long time, about 40 pages.

the israelis code named this "jericho wall," and it's about breaking a wall. it's about breaking the wall separated between gaza and israel, destroying the front, the gaza division, killing the soldiers, and allowing many, many hundreds of other hamas militants to storm into israel and kill civilians, kill children, kill soldiers. we know how it ended, but if you look at the plan, it's amazing. it's shocking the extent of knowledge that hamas had about israel, about the israeli secret fortification at the border. i'm sure one day we will know how they know this information,

but this is not open sources. >> shocking that even five days before this attack, netanyahu and his cabinet were saying, quote, hamas is afraid of israel. >> so they got it wrong at every level. it's clear the intelligence failure was deep in the israeli agencies, that political leadership all the way up to netanyahu was part of that misreading. i want to ask ronen. this is a stunning piece of journalism. i want to asks you whether the prime minister was briefed, himself, on "jericho wall," in this process, and the second question, your reporting describes an analyst who got it right while everybody else was ignoring this intelligence. there was a woman who said, this is a plan for war. they're coming after us.

she took it seriously. tell us a little bit more about her and why people didn't listen to her. >> when "jericho wall" was obtained, a super secret way to have a copy from hamas -- this was the most updated copy of the plan that they started to devise in 2012. they made it more and more precise based on more and more accurate intelligence. israeli intelligence both military intelligence and the southern command intelligence, looked at that. they did not disregard, but they said, this is a sort of a dream, aspirational plan. this is where hamas wants to be, not where they are able to be. this plan was detailing how 1,600, and 1,800 commandos would

come across the border in 60 places. israelis said they can only have 17 cross in two places. so that was significant. moeb saw -- nobody saw that the gap was diminishing except for one person who warned they're closing the gap. she didn't know they were going to attack. she said, they will have the capability and others pushed back and said, no. this is imaginative. she even said, we are closing into the 50th anniversary for the yom kippur war. then in the south of israel, everybody thought, it's just imaginatory. we should treat the enemy as they should be treated. >> ronen bergman of the "new

york times." still ahead, we've got a lot to cover from capitol hill including jackie's reporting on why donald trump did not intervene during the effort to remove kevin mccarthy as house speaker. maybe he was depressed and not eating. >> wasn't eating. plus, it could be the final day in congress for republican george santos as his colleagues are set to vote on a resolution to expel him from the house. and new signs senator tommy tuberville might be ready to end his blockade on hundreds of military promotions. an end to one of the stupidest stunts in capitol hill history. kevin mccarthy, george santos, and tommy tuberville. the clowns next on "morning joe." y tuberville the clowns next on "morning joe.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." jackie alemany, you've got a bunch of reporting for us. i want to know if george santos has any chance of surviving today and staying in congress, and tuberville giving in? what else? go. >> yeah. george santos is very much a question mark. this is someone who i think thinks he was kim kardashian, but in reality is more of an anna delvey and in terms of the potential criminal conduct. >> that's wonderful. wonderful. >> that just came to me organically. >> our demo just popped.

25-54, thank you, jack. >> but this is something that speaker johnson isn't even whipping. he said himself that members should vote their conscience. the majority of democrats are probably going to vote to expel him. that means republicans need around 80 people to get behind this expulsion, but there are a number of republicans who feel like they don't want to break precedent here. the only other people who have been expelled have been disloyal during the civil war. >> this guy is worth expelling, isn't he? >> in the state of new york, he has a 23-count indictment. the ethics committee was working on their report for eight months. it's 107 -- they obtained 170,000 pages worth of evidence and information. >> just -- very random question, whose baby was he holding that day? >> we're still not sure. >> we don't know?

>> that will be on the post-congressional reality tv show on netflix. >> that is a good question. a lot of people are asking him, what is he doing next? is there a dating show for people in prison maybe he can go on? >> sounds great, yeah. >> some reality show. that is a serious question that people have been asking him, but yeah. it remains to be seen whether or not he's actually going to get expelled today. the house freedom caucus has come out against it. they have said that, one, they find the ethics committee biased, which by the way is equally comprised of democrats and republicans. >> right. >> republicans on the committee unanimously voted to expel him, found him -- >> interesting. >> -- guilty. >> it's ridiculous to call that bipartisan committee biased. i think that's also for some members who probably are going to get hit pretty hard by the ethics committee in the future. >> tommy. >> but yeah. i'm saying, congress usually, you know, we won't support him in the next primary and leave it

up to the voters. i think that's always been the mindset. we'll see if they break that precedent here. tommy tuberville, is he beginning to back down? >> he has said he wants to get as many people as nominated as possible in the coming weeks. he says that there have been some agreements come to strip the language about abortion from the national defense authorization act which was why he claimed he was holding everything up, but based on reporting from our colleagues who cover the senate, it's actually just frustrations have been boiling over from his own colleagues who have really had -- >> really getting hammered by republicans, isn't he? >> yeah. people like joni ernst, and it's going against the lindsey graham types. >> and mccarthy and trump. tell us about it. was it like a wellness check? what are we talking about? >> that's actually a good question in that we weren't totally able to get to the bottom of exactly why they were

speaking. we were told it was sort of a routine checkup. >> a routine checkup. okay. >> he was making sure the burgers were being delivered on time. >> they both have jobs to do despite mccarthy being ousted from the speaker's seat, but that in the course of that call, trump expressed to mccarthy why he declined to get people like matt gaetz and other hardline republicans to get off his back and back off of their plan the -- to remove him using this motion to vacate. he said he insufficiently loyal and didn't endorse him. he didn't bring to the floor these two bills that trump wanted to expunge his impeachment inquiries. mccarthy in recollection said after the fact claimed that he told trump -- he said, ef you. he has said this before. this is a very similar mccarthy story that we've heard, sort of

the discrepancies between his recollections of his private conversation with trump versus what he actually said. mccarthy's people said, he didn't curse him out. >> no, he didn't. >> this is an ongoing routine by kevin mccarthy who claims to third parties that he shouted, screamed and shouted at donald trump, and told him to blank off and yelled at him on january 6th. you don't ef with me. you know exactly who these people -- et cetera, et cetera, and i don't know. it never squares up. we never hear him saying that publicly. if he talks tough about trump, he backs down the next day. >> goes to visit him. >> i don't believe a word of it. i'm very excited by the terms like ef you. we're getting very close to the edge. >> i don't believe a word of it either. >> i don't believe a word. you know, i can believe liz cheney saying ef you. >> oh, yeah.

>> but mccarthy to trump? no. george santos is likelier to have a truthful resume man that to be true. coming up, we'll talk more about president biden's approach to the wars in ukraine and the middle east as both conflicts continue to rage. his approach to those major foreign policy challenges when "morning joe" comes right back. n "morning joe" comes right back every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. just a moment of your time, everyone! (whispering) keep it together, turkey. singlecare, the app that truly helps you save on your meds. is that... yeah, he's here every day. do you use singlecare? no, i have insurance. oh, singlecare can actually beat your co-pay. singlecare can also beat the price of your medicare plan. did you know you just search your prescription in the singlecare app, and show your coupon to your pharmacist...

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last winter, russia sought to destroy ukraine's critical infrastructure, the energy infrastructure, and to deprive the ukrainian people of access to heat and electricity at the coldest time of the year. russia tried to break the will of the ukrainian people, but of course, it failed. as we head into yet another winter, we expect that russia will return to this cruel tactic and again try to pursue a campaign to destroy ukraine's

critical energy infrastructure. in just the last couple of days we've seen some air strikes taken by the russians that seem to be going after the kind of defensive systems that the ukrainians have in place to protect their energy infrastructure. >> national security spokesperson john kirby warning that the united states expects russia will again target ukrainian energy infrastructure this winter. last winter rather than limit the fighting to the battlefield, russian forces launched attacks throughout ukraine aimed at power stations and energy sources trying to cut the power to both military targets and civilian populations. joining us now is poland's former foreign minister and minister of national defense. he's a current member of the european parliament and chair of the delegation for relations with the united states. it's really good to have you here on the set with us in washington.

>> great to have you here. can we talk first about -- it's been a while, but talk about the significance of poland's election, one of -- we think one of the most important elections at least here stateside in europe in quite sometime. >> we had backsliding on roll of law in poland, and we managed to defeat the populists, and it happened through a huge turnout, unprecedented. when we voted on communism back in 1989, the turnout was 63%, and this time it was 74%. >> what do you think made the difference? most people thought the justice party would probably win because they had all the controls of the government, the media. most outside observers would say they basically control all of the levers. they should be winning this, but they didn't. what happened? >> the former prime minister of poland returned and put together

a coalition, and he very effectively mobilized the polish people against the corruption, against taking us out of the european union. that i think in the end is what the election was about. we want to stay part of the west. we don't want an authoritarian experiment. >> i will tell you traveling around poland when -- going from warsaw, down to auschwitz and traveling, you really could see the impact of the eu and the funding on the infrastructure. extraordinary difference. >> one thing that i think that is relevant in the american context is the outgoing government imposed the harshest anti-abortion law in poland and young women turned out to vote because they said enough is enough. >> right. >> what i'm really interested in is your leader spent a year

going around and touching people, speaking to people, spending weeks in different provinces, getting around the state media monopoly of the justice party through spending time on the ground and you getting these extraordinary turnouts. 85% in warsaw. people understood what was at stake in the polish election. what lessons do you think we can take this side of the atlantic for 2024? >> well, electoral systems matter. mobilization matters, and then a piece of that also matters. the polish population gained par because one party didn't make the threshold back in 2015. >> mm-hmm. >> this time we all got into parliament, and that's why we have a majority. so institutions, personalities, and shaping the issue. you win or lose depending on what the people think the election is about.

sometimes when it's about cultural issues, you lose, and when it's about the economy or about geopolitical orientation. in this case, we won. coming up, we'll speak with the brother of an israeli hostage just released from the gaza strip. his message to the other families still holding out hope that their loved ones will come home. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." me that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe. the subway series? it's the perfect menu lineup. just give us a number, we got the rest. number three? the monster. six? the boss. fifteen? titan turkey. number one? the philly. oh, yeah, you probably don't want that one. look, i'm not in charge of naming the subs.

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when it comes to our environment and the devastating effects of climate change, there are many reasons to be pessimistic, but world renowned environmentalist and activist, dr. jane goodall is choosing to remain hopeful. the 89-year-old who blazed a trail for countless women in science is in the new imax film, "jane goodall: reasons for hope", and she recently spoke to

huma abadeen about her life, legacy, and unwavering commitment to creating a better world for future generations. take a look. >> what i hope for is to live long enough to spread my message far enough around the world because it's, you know, if we don't have hope, then we tend to fall into apathy, and if we fall into apathy, we tend to do nothing, and without hope, you're not going to roll up your sleeves and get out there and do something to change the world because we are living in very dark times. it's politically, socially, andr young people to have enough hope that they can carry on and believe in a better future. >> it feels like turning apathy into inspiration is something that you have a lot of experience in, inspiring this objection generation of activists is a cause near and

dear to you for a long time now. you started the roots and shoots program in 1991. what is your advice to those who maybe feel overwhelmed by all the challenges? >> you can't save the world. no individual can. but you can be passionate about it. maybe it's the plastic in the oceans, maybe you want the plan plant a tree so you can absorb more co2 into the atmosphere. take action. when you take action, you find, gosh, i do make a difference, particularly in 69 countries around the world and you realize people like you are also taking small steps. put those together, and that

leads to big change. i hope that's part of the legacy i leave behind. >> you can watch huma abedin's entire interview with dr. jane goodall at knowyourvalue.com. coming up, the middle east where israeli air strikes are once again pounding the gaza strip after an end to its temporary truce with hamas. we'll have the latest straight ahead on "morning joe." latest t ahead on "morning joe. are you still struggling with your bra? it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com the new subway mvp rewards earns you points for every order.

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the ceasefire in gaza has come to an end after a weeklong pause. israel resumed air strikes overnight after accusing hamas of firing rockets before the truce was set to expire. eight more israeli hostages were released yesterday, along with 30 palestinian prisoners. among the hostages freed yesterday was a woman we told you about last month.

she was visiting family in a town near the gaza border when the october 7th attacks happened. she was with her husband and their 3-year-old daughter. all three were kidnapped in a stolen car. they then tried to flee, but the terrorists opened fire. that's when she handed her daughter to her husband. the two of them escaped while she was recaptured. after 54 days in captivity, she was reunited with her family yesterday. joining us now from israel is her brother, who first joined us on the show last month when he had no idea about her whereabouts or how she was doing. things must look very different today. thank you for coming back on the show. >> good morning. >> how is the family doing? what was it like to reunite?

i'm sure there are many different emotions. >> yeah. obviously we are extremely happy and also worried about the general situation and also our sister-in-law carmel is yet to be released. specific thought about these moments, it's almost uncomprehendible, the level of joy of hearing her voice again, seeing her pictures, seeing my niece reunited with her, it's truly, truly unbelievable. i think that every hostage family deserves this moment of rejoice and of peace and calm, knowing that their loved ones

are back and this is beyond words. >> yeah, i get that completely. just looking at the pictures, has she been able to share anything about her time in captivity, or is it too soon? >> she shared some. we are not allowed to elaborate. but an example i can give you, we found out that most of her time in captivity in gaza, she didn't know if her husband and daughter are alive. she knew about it only by a brief radio broadcast that she overheard of somebody dedicated a song for her mother-in-law that was murdered and mentioned that she and carmel are hostages. by that, she concluded that

because her daughter and husband were not mentioned that they are not either killed or taken hostage. so most of her time she knew what happened to her daughter and to her husband and that they were able to be safe. just imagine which kind of darkness she lived. >> just a trauma for both sides of the family, for the people waiting and hoping for her to come home, but not knowing what her condition is, if she's okay, and the same for her in captivity, not knowing if the daughter she handed off to her husband, if they made it. >> so many not having any idea what was going on beyond their own terrible situation. is she in relatively good health despite this horrific experience? >> i would say relatively well would be a good description.

>> where are the family spending most of their time together, working with counsellors, is there a process to help them? >> well, as you probably know, it took hamas a long time to release them. it happened really close to the end of the ceasefire around midnight. they were transferred to a hospital, so we've been there for a day. we spent the whole night there together and the whole day together in the same room with a lot of counsellors and physicians. but then we came back home. so we are now, all of us at the same apartment at my father's place. it is very fun, and we just came back from for the first time taking my sister and her

daughter to the beach to be out in the sun, to feel the water, to feel the sand, to feel what freedom looks like. >> thank you very much. wishing you many more days like that with your family. >> i want to remind how crucial it is to get back into the process of pauses and release of more hostages. it's crucial and they have very limited time. >> thank you for that. >> thank you so much. >> just about two minutes past the top of the hour. >> i wonder if the extraordinary news, shattering news that came out today is actually going to push the netanyahu government to try again, to try to get more hostages out. because there's no doubt the

news from the "new york times," it's just extraordinary the netanyahu government knew for a year the specifics of this attack, down to using paragliders. and then you add on top of that the fact that there were people being raped, shot, killed for seven hours, children hiding for seven hours before anybody came to even try to rescue them. >> that story to read was both devastating and gripping when you read the specific blueprints of what the israeli government knew and what in particular that one analyst or agent was saying that they planned to do this, and not just that they planned to do this, but they have done a mock run-through or what they planned to do. i couldn't help but think of in our country bin laden's attack

on 9/11. it had that parallel. it will be interesting to see how the israelis, who are already devastated by this, respond. >> the fbi agent, i think it was in detroit, reported that there were muslim men using simulators who said they wanted to learn how to fly a plane. >> but not land it. >> somebody reported, hey, this doesn't sound right. and, again, just ignored. >> the "new york times" is reporting that israel new hamas was planning a wide-scale assault a year before the october 7th terrorist tack, and they knew details. according to the paper, israeli officials obtained an approximately 40-page document, which they code named "jericho wall." it outlinedoint by point exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1200 people.

the times writes, israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for hamas to carry out. early this morning, israeli defense forces responded to the report, writing a statement, quote, the idf is currently focused on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organization hamas. questions of this kind will be looked into at a later stage. that will add to the list of questions that they are putting off to a later date. what was benjamin netanyahu doing? was he distracted? why the delay in the response? if something is happening 40 minutes away, women are getting raped, babies getting shot, people getting run out of their homes, why is it taking seven hours? how do you see this as a choice not to respond at this point?

>> these statements, we'll talk about it later, that would work if it were the united states and we're not depending on another country. anybody that watches this show, i was a strong supporter of israel in congress as well, and i would be the first person in congress to say, wait a second, we're giving more money to this government to execute a war when we have a guy over there that has an approval rating maybe in the teens, is hated around the region, is not respected around the world? >> add some indictments. >> this does not make funding for israel any easier that netanyahu is doing everything he can to hold on when he knew this attack, his people knew this attack was coming for a year. it's not good enough for members of congress on the hill, is it, to just say, you know, we'll talk about this later, we're fighting a war right now, you

guys just butt out. >> you can't get funding from a huge country like the united states and not expect this question after this reporting. it's already been super complicated trying to figure out what funding could and when it will go to israel because of the split within the parties themselves and the tensions between republicans and democrats and what they want to see. if you think about before october 7th, where the united states was going in thinking about israel and more important in thinking about netanyahu, president biden and vice president kamala harris were constantly talking about israel as a democracy that was backsliding. so now we're back to that. like more questions about what was netanyahu doing. he is facing a lot of pressure within his own country. you just heard from that brother of the hostage. they're going to continue to ask the questions, get all the hostages out and now this, why

weren't you helping these people before these things happened? >> the statement, we're going to wait until later for every question that we ask, the unfortunate problem here and why it falls flat, rings untrue, is that the answers to these questions would help everybody in israel and the u.s. supporters to move forward. >> even strong supporters of israel and the united states, we're not blind. we can watch the television. we can see what's happening in the west bank. the west bank is becoming more chaotic by the day. what does that mean? it means we get further away from a two-state solution, which netanyahu has fought against for over a decade now. that means there's a possibility, if you're a strong supporter of israel, you're now looking at a two-front war,

possibly a three-front war when the idf has their hands full with gaza. we've spoken about the holocaust, how it has impacted your family, how it has impacted so many families. i spoke with a man -- i won't say his name here -- but that a lot of people know that was practically in tears talking about how his generation let down those past generations that survived the holocaust, got to israel. they would see the numbers burned in the arm. and then when they tried to get their grandmothers or fathers to talk about it, they'd start to go, that's all right, we're here now, we're safe now. this guy said, i feel like our

generation let all of those people who survived the holocaust down by allowing this to happen. and now we find out it's actually worse than we ever imagined. i want to ask you -- and this is extraordinarily personal too. >> yeah. >> tell me about this headline. tell me about this story. how do you feel? >> one of the essential promises of zionism and the state of israel is it would protect the jewish people from a recurrence of the pogroms and the holocaust. the utter incompetence displayed in the face of this threat and to know it was coming for so long and to do so little to prepare, and we also know battalions of troops were sent to the west bank where settlers were provoking tensions with

palestinians in the west bank. so in order to protect bibi netanyahu's coalition, israel's security was sacrifices. >> netanyahu didn't want to bother with gaza, because that didn't involve him politically. the west bank, when he gave license to extremists to set up illegal settlements -- and let me just say illegal settlements -- he knew that he was going to cause unrest. and politically, him trying to provoke the west bank and undermine the palestinian authority, what did that do? that helped him politically with the religious extremists. so he had a political reason. israelis know this. he has a political reason for ignoing hamas, who said we want to destroy israel. >> the entire arc of netanyahu's

career is self-preservation at the expense of the national interest. that was true in the demonstrations in the controversy over the court leading up to the war, and it's true in the course of the prosecution of this war. netanyahu in the early days of this war had an opportunity to form a coalition, a genuine coalition government, where he would ditch the religious zealots and form a government that was much more competent. the foreign minute administer, the national security people are incompetent. they don't have the capacity to pull off the sort of diplomatic end game, the sort of project that's required to rebuild gaza in the wake of this. the government has consistently sacrificed any sort of thinking about the end game in order to preserve this cockamamy, dangerous coalition.

>> extremist coalition. it's not like we weren't hearing from people inside of israel that netanyahu had pushed out secular jews, who were extraordinarily professional, who had built up the reputation of the idf and mossad in exchange for bringing in people that were called clowns by israeli insiders. and we see the consequence of this, the consequence of focusing on the west bank for political purposes and the consequence for bringing in religious extremists and kicking out the professionals that had done such an extraordinary job in defending israel for so long. >> yeah. i mean, there are far-right appointees in netanyahu's cabinet who u.s. officials have told us they view as especially problematic. these are people who come from the settler movement, that there's basically no hope for

peace as long as you have people who are encouraging around arming settlers in the west bank who are part of the cabinet. u.s. officials have told us that they don't feel netanyahu can make the right decisions for his country and sort of work in tandem with the u.s. on the goals of this war as long as he's constantly looking over his shoulder at what the right-wing members of his cabinet are wanting. >> what does this story mean to the biden administration as far as future support? i know they're going to support israel, but are more strings attached now because of the sheer, utter incompetence of netanyahu's government? >> the incompetence of the government, the complete and utter security failure to prevent this attack and then to respond once it began to unfold. not only that, i think this week you've seen the biden administration start to distance itself more and more from israel and start to sort of put more conditions on u.s. support. they did not do this when israel

began launching its attack in the north. they were very careful to not publicly criticize. they sort of indicated where they were uncomfortable. they said we do not support an operation in the south until a plan to protect the displaced people. israel could not launch the type of attack in northern gaza because they could not sustain that kind of humanitarian disaster. john kirby was saying we want to see a plan for israel before they go into the south and they hope the pause would extend a couple more days and lead to more permanent cessation of hostilities. i think they have been positioning themselves to distance from israel if they start launching the type of air strikes they were launching in the north. they can't sustain that. they can't support israel. now you have a number of senate democrats talk about conditioning aid to israel.

i think biden is using all these factors to pressure netanyahu to ignore the right wing of his cabinet and find a way to bring the war to an end. >> the argument that falls on deaf ears now in america on capitol hill is the argument many have made, which is, israel knows how to defend themselves better than anybody else. well, maybe the israelis do, but benjamin netanyahu has been one mistake after another after another. he cynically played to right-wing religious extremists or extreme settlers. >> distracted by indictments. >> distracted by indictments, went after the supreme court. and in doing all of this, he did it for political purposes only and ignored the terrorists that

said, we're coming to kill jews. let me just say the worst slaughter of jews since the holocaust, and it took netanyahu's government seven hours to even start going down to save them. >> one can't be sure no even after all of this that netanyahu isn't still acting cynically in order to preserve himself. i think biden is pretty clear-eyed in the end about netanyahu despite his ability -- >> it was an awkward bear hug. i've seen one-sided bear hugs. that was a one-sided bear hug. >> but he's also not wanting to meddle too deeply in the politics of another nation. >> certainly not after a terror attack.

>> given netanyahu's unpopularity, given the likelihood that everybody knows that his government is going to fall at some point, it's a question of when and what the triggering mechanism is for that. benny gantz, who's an opposition politician who joined the war cabinet, so there's not a coalition government, but there is a war government that included some members of the opposition. i'm just speculating. i've heard that he's been frustrated with netanyahu's prosecution of the war. at some point, he has to make a decision about how much more cover he can provide for netanyahu given these failures, given the fact that it's actually hard to know how the war is going in terms of the actual elimination of hamas, which is one of the end goals of the operation, and how much of hamas is being destroyed in the course of the operation. it's a relatively open question. we don't have great reporting on

that at this stage, but it's an essential question. >> just on that point, i mean, i think it's worth noting the biden administration never thought this war was going to be successful in eradicating hamas from the very beginning. u.s. officials were privately saying they thought israel's strategy was faulty, that they couldn't eradicate hamas. a lot of experts were saying you should try to -- you know, eliminating them is unrealistic. they never thought the ground invasion was a good idea. they did not agree with the air strikes. more than 13,000 palestinians have been killed because of this. they don't think the operation in the south is going to be successful. i just think it's worth noting there has been a lot of skepticism and distrust of this military strategy from the beginning. >> the administration is now going to continue to pressure even more so than they have before probably even more publicly, what happens after

this is over? what does the day after actually look like? not to show us what you're going to do in the south, not to show us what the rest of this looks like. they have clearly been doing that. but what does it actually look like? they don't want israel to take over gaza. they've been very clear about that. they don't want them in there. they're not sure about the talk that the middle east countries want to take care of it. they don't want to do that. i assume those conversations are going to start happening. >> it also creates more political headaches on this issue for president biden. as you were just articulating, you can be a very strong supporter of israel, but be very critical of the netanyahu government. that's a slightly more nuanced and complicated position. you can be a strong supporter of israel and be morally outraged and say it's unacceptable that 13,000 palestinians, largely

women and children, have been killed by israel's invasion. but what you're seeing is all of these things that are kind of hard to hold in your mind at one point are exposing fissures in the democratic party that president biden has to deal with at a time when he wants his attention elsewhere. >> i think that's the argument to be made, that pressuring israel to stop fomenting chaos in the west bank is not only in the palestinians' best interest, it's in israel's military best interest. getting leaders in, benny gantz, getting leaders in that actually know what the hell they're doing is not only in the palestinians' best interest and civilians'. it's in israel's best interest. as joe biden said from the very

beginning, this is going to be extraordinarily difficult. so how do you keep supporting one of the most incompetent leaders, if not the most incompetent leader in israeli history? >> one of the interesting things that's happened in israel, in the immediate aftermath of the attack, i started to call around to very people within the israeli military establishment, smart strategic thinkers and asked how does this end, what's the strategy? all of them were capable of articulating strategies, but they also said the major obstacle to that was the netanyahu government, not just because of the incompetence -- >> israelis? >> these were israelis. the smartest people who served former prime ministers, because of the incompetence of the ministers he was appointed, but also his inability to talk about a two-state solution, his

inability to make the sorts of concessions he needs to have in the conversations with the gulf states and other arab states that would be capable of reconstructing gaza and taking some sort of leadership role in the end. the question is, given what's transpired so far, where does this go from here? >> i'm so glad frank brought up the gulf states and the arab states, because the leaders there are quietly saying we want to have relations with israel. the longer this drags on, the way it is going, the way that netanyahu's government is executing this war makes it harder by the day. >> absolutely. white house reporter for the "washington post," thank you so much for coming on. coming up, we talk about the major tensions on college campuses, as well as the backlash for business and other institutions for taking stances

on the israel/hamas war or in some cases not taking one. up next, we'll get a report on how the war is causing some divisions within the hollywood community. i'm also going to be talking about the tragic shootings in vermont with the head of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt, just sickening developments in the shootings of these palestinian students. e shf these palestinian students

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amid the israel/hamas war, we have seen a number of organizations and entities struggle in their public responses to the october 7th terror attack and israel's ensuing military action in gaza. collectively, hollywood has also grappled with its reaction, with some actors and writers wanting their unions to be more vocal in

condemning hamas, while others say they have received public backlash and even professional retaliation for their own comments. let's bring chloe with the details on this. >> good morning, mika. hollywood is no stranger for taking a stand publicly on current controversial issues, but this one has people divided on what is free speech and what is hate speech and the repercussions for going too far could mean being dropped by an agency or even losing your job. nearly two months into the war, the world is divided, tensions mounting in d.c. ♪♪ on college campuses and in hollywood, in the days following the october 7th terror attacks, companies including disney, paramount and comcast condemned the acts.

celebrities posting messages of solidarity with israel on social media. and michael douglas and jerry seinfeld were among actors who penned an open letter in support for israel. but since then as images captured the devastation in gaza, some began posting support for palestinians, including models gigi and bella hadid. some have faced fallout for taking public stances on either side of the conflict. angry comments filled amy shoe her's social media after she posted about israel, sharing clips of dr. martin luther king, jr. critics called for a boycott of "stranger things" after an actor posted stickers saying hamas is isis. last weekweek, united talent ag

dropped susan sarandon after she spoke out saying jewish people are getting a taste of what it feels like to be a muslim in this country. both declined to comment. >> and melissa barara was fired, later saying on social media i am against anti-semitism, i am against islamophobia. fear of retaliation is palpable. more than 400 hollywood workers called for a ceasefire using only their initials. they explained that decision, saying this is amounting to a new era of mccarthyism. >> i think hollywood is going to have a reckoning.

>> a doctor and author who frequently appears on television says she was dropped by her talent agency a3 after she called israel's actions toward palestinians genocide on social media. >> i was sent a vaguely worded e-mail that said, points of view were respected but within reason. >> a3 has not responded to requests for comment. >> of course there are lines to draw. there are such things as hate speech. i think that's different than free speech. >> the chairman of media rights capital, the studio says hollywood's struggle is deciding what counts as free speech and what goes too far. >> organizations are trying to figure out what those lines are. >> hollywood has a long history of wrestling with controversial political issues, from the notorious red scare after world war ii when hundreds of hollywood stars were suspected of being communists and temporarily blacklists, to decades later when actress jane

fonda sparked outrage after she was photographed in hanoi after the vietnam war, earning her nickname hanoi jane. >> i will go to my grave regretting that. >> certainly we have seen a polarization in issues about international affairs, but this does seem to be a particularly difficult one in many respects. emotions are raw. >> and a follow-up to some of those examples that we just showed you, model gigi hadid has been facing mounting backlash for an instagram post monday where she inaccurately said israel is the only country in the world that keeps children as prisoners of war. in response, an entertainment executive said, quote, let's get our facts straight before we post to 78 million people. hadid has since posted an apology saying she failed to

fact check. she does say she'll continue to speak out in support of palestinians. also juliana margolis is seeing her own backlash this morning after her comments on a podcast went viral. the actress said the black community was brainwashed to hate jews and if lgbtq were to enter an islamic country they would be beheaded and played with like a soccer ball. >> oh my gosh. chloe melas, thank you very much for that report. joining us now, the ceo of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt. >> let's be clear here, and maybe you can help. it's going to be impossible to draw a line everybody's going to agree with. it is okay to come out in

support of palestinians. coming out in support of palestinians is not support of hamas, is not support of terrorism. that can be done. what we have seen, unfortunately, from some in hollywood has gone far beyond that. i just want to say i've seen some posts that have been attacking people for simply supporting palestinians. they should not be attacked for that. that is far different than providing aid and comfort to hamas. >> 100%. we have a moral obligation as human beings to say palestinian civilians should never be killed. now, we can argue about the causality to a certain degree in terms of hamas' tactics. but let's be clear, talking

about the dignity of palestinian people, we have a moral obligation to do that. we have a moral obligation to call out these three young american who were shot in burlington in what appears to me to be a hate crime. just like we should call out the jewish elderly men bludgeons to death at a pro-israel rally. i don't say why people feel the need to deny the humanity of others. at the same time susan sarandon is not david ignatius. when she posts that israel is committing genocide, that it's lying about the murder of civilians, i wouldn't go to gigi hadid to write a column in the "new york times." i think we need to acknowledge that celebrities do a kind of reach and power and influence, which makes it reverberate when they get it wrong.

that does not mean we shouldn't understand the dignity of palestinian civilians and israeli lives too. we should call out anti-semitism when it happens and anti-muslim hate when it happens, and we should do it full stop without reservation. >> we saw a lot of people afraid to speak out in support of the jewish people they slaughtered for a lot of different reasons. we talked about it a lot. we talked about presidents of universities, we talked about administrators at universities. but the longer we get into this and the more i talk to my own children and my children's friends, i've got to say you kind of hit the nail on the head right there. it's not college presidents who are influencing students so much as it is instagram and tiktok. >> and gigi hadid. >> when somebody with 85 million

followers says something, a lot of younger people who know nothing about this conflict, they hear something from a celebrity, they're going to take it in and they're not going to hear the correction five days later. >> that is correct. let's be frank about it. we've been on this show. we've talked about instagram, we've talked about twitter or x. you've seen my back and forth with elon musk. but we need to talk about tiktok. tiktok is the 24/7 news channel of so many of our young people. it's like al jazeera on steroids, intensifying the anti-semitism and anti-zionism with no repercussions. there's been a lot of lament about that tiktok is majority

owned by chinese, but sequoia and general atlantic, does oracle want to be responsible for spreading anti-zionism and anti-semitism. it's time to talk about tiktok. we need members of congress to ask them why are they doing nothing. i've met with their ceo. i've talked to their leadership. it is long past time for tiktok and its owners and investors to step up and say it's enough. >> frank, do you have teenage kids? >> i do. >> then you know what i'm talking about. it is amazing what younger people are getting unfiltered anti-semitic bile that they're getting every day off of tiktok. i didn't understand what was going on on college campuses, why it was happening. if you don't understand what's

going on at college campuses, don't look at the university of penn, right? look at tiktok. that's where this is. >> it makes me despair for the world they're going to inhabit, just the low quality of the informational ecosystem where demagoguery and misinformation is like oxygen. it also makes me despair for the ways in which they debate one another. they're incapable of spreading disagreement without resorting to hyperbole. >> extraordinarily ignorant on this issue. i don't say that about a lot of issues, but in the middle east, people who have no idea what's been going on since 1948 will look at a 30-second clip and

they'll become experts. >> jonathan mentioned the horrific shooting in vermont of three college students of palestinian descent. we're learning more about the suspect and hearing from the mothers of two of the victims. stephanie gosk has more. >> reporter: the suspect accused of shooting three palestinian college students has not been charged with a hate crime, but the mothers of two of the young men say they have no doubt why their sons were targeted. >> if they were not wearing the keffiyah or speaking arabic, i cannot understand why he would shoot. >> reporter: they were shot saturday evening. one is out of the hospital, but rattled. >> he's a bit jumpy. he's frightful. >> he's traumatized. >> he is paralyzed, currently

paralyzed from the mid torso downwards. >> reporter: 48-year-old jason eaton plead not guilty. he has a history of mental illness, according to police records. >> he was fully accountable. he had a gun and he tried to take the lives of our sons. he said that tens of thousands of people killed in gaza, there were about 30 that have the name. >> reporter: they felt the toxic rhetoric since the war began. >> i think people see them as culpable and accountable. >> i was and am incredibly angry that i feel like there's nowhere safe for palestinians.

i literally don't know where to go with my son. >> these three young men are the age of my sons. it's so heartbreaking. it's burlington, vermont. >> have you ever been to burlington? >> i'm so heartbroken for them and their parents. and i'm so heartbroken that this could happen in america. >> anywhere. >> it is horrifying, jonathan. >> anyone who thinks that shooting teenager in burlington, vermont, is going to help israel is nuts, just like anyone who thinks that intimidating and terrorizing college students because they're wearing stars of david is going to help a single palestinian is nuts. it feels like the tension is so high, we need leaders to just dial it down. stop making wild accusations, call out hate when it happens.

that's all it takes. yet, these university presidents you mentioned, the cowardice, next week the presidents of harvard, penn and m.i.t. are being compelled to testify before congress and explain how things have unravelled to such an extent we have jewish students assaulted at ohio state, at university of massachusetts. there was a referendum this week at michigan about israel committing genocide. we need presidents to say, whether you are jewish or muslim, all our students are entitled to an education without fear of violence or reprisals of any kind. >> do you know what you call jewish students and muslim students? americans. the idea that you have politicians that are trying to divide america over this, that you have college presidents who have been cowards in so many

respects, it's heartbreaking. muslim and jewish students have to be protected. >> ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt, thanks. it's great to have you on. still ahead, wall street reporter ken thomas joins us on the handwringing happening from some democrats about biden's campaign. >> that's nicer than bedwetting. we should substitute that with hand bringing. on sunday, msnbc films presents "between life and death." the documentary retraces the tragic story of terry schiavo.

here's a look at the film's trailer. >> the battle has come to involve state judges, federal judges, the supreme court, the congress and even the president of the united states. >> i remember them telling us that she was going to have a significant brain injury. >> no interaction, unable to communicate in any way. >> she had no living will, she had no health care surrogate. >> she was there. she could hear me. she knew i loved her. >> i had a meeting with all the doctors. they said this is terri. there's nothing more they can do for her. >> my goal was trying to actively end terri's life and kill her. >> in florida, you have the legal right to die with dignity. >> if she dies, there is going to be hell to pay. >> throughout this whole thing, she became the poster child for every cause. >> "between life and death"

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i love my wife. you know where you stand with her. the guy walked in the arena, everybody cheered. she gave him the finger, nobody got arrested. that's why this country is great. everybody expressed themselves. can we all be adults? i don't know about you, but i came there to go to the fights. i didn't know i was going to the republican national convention. >> that was comedian bill burr talking about a ufc fight at madison square garden that was attended by donald trump. while trump was greeted by mostly cheers from the crowd, not everybody was excited to see him. a clip shared on social media shows knee ya renee hill, bill

burr's wife flipping off the former president before he takes a seat. that set off an avalanche of online criticism from trump supporters, and days later burr pointed out their hypocrisy. >> those trump guys they're always going snowflake, eff your feelings, and then you make fun of trump and they're like, oh, my god, that's so disrespectful. you're saying eff joe biden, you can't have it both ways. >> this is a good point. >> i saw flags, all throughout 2020 that said eff your feelings. >> boats would have them, flags! boats would have them, trump 2020. >> eff your feelings. >> lobster boats. all over the place, right? and trump loses and they're like, let's just wait a second, let's -- >> no, he won. >> he's got -- like let's -- we got to be worried about his feelings and he'll get to it,

and that's what we kept hearing. so yeah, the hypocrisy. they're such snowflakes. it's crazy. let's bring in white house reporter for "the wall street journal", you don't have to talk about jim burr. alex korson has been trying to get this clip in all week, and so here we are at the end and we finally got it in. let's talk about battleground states. democrats are hand wringing. that's the polite way to put it about joe biden in the swing states. what are you -- what are you hearing? what are you reporting? >> i mean, i think the events on the ground are making it difficult for biden in some of these states. you look at michigan, you look at wisconsin, pennsylvania, lots of college students, and for many of them they'll be voting for the first time in their lives. they're going to have to have a connection to somebody who's 60 years older than them. and you know, gaza is certainly not helping. you know, next week we're going to see a really large sample from the harvard kennedy school. they do a big poll of youth

voters, and you know, that could be another one of these polls that just shows, you know, some of the real concerns that the biden team has in terms of reconnecting with those younger voters who are a big part of the coalition. not only in 2020, but 2022. >> but that connection that the youth voters don't have with someone so much older than them, does that make them vote for trump? i think that's the issue, it's not that young voters are going to rush off and vote for a guy who killed 50 years of rights, and now these people are going to grow up with rights and health care that they used to have that they don't have now, so is the worry that they will stay home? >> some of the hand wringing when you talk to democrats and even people in biden's orbit is not necessarily so much that they will vote for trump, especially when they think there is that head to head contrast and trump is back in the news but it's that either they will simply not vote is number one. and if you talk to democrats doing presentations, the biden campaign when they make their presentation to donors, one of the slides they end with says

this election will be decided by about 43,000 votes, right, across three states and had they gone differently last time, we'd still be referring to president trump. so a vote, a non-vote in some ways they view as a vote for trump is problematic. >> young voters same as you hear the biden campaign worried about black men, hispanic men. they don't think donald trump's going to get 21, 22% of the black vote like the polls are saying right now. what they do worry about is a lot of black men and a lot of especially younger black men and a lot of hispanic men staying home. >> they do. or voting for a third party, right? we're seeing all of these possibilities of people saying, fine, i'll vote for cornell west in michigan or i'll write somebody in in a way that we haven't seen in the past. they know they have a problem, right? you can see the way that they've been operaing over the last year knowing they have a

problem. vice president harris focusing on the youth vote. she can a college tour that tells you they know they have an issue with young voters. black and brown voters, because the youth vote is so much more diverse than any of the other votes that are out there. >> ken, is there any plausible strategy throughout for reversing the damage that's showing up in these polls that we're seeing out there so ubiquitously in all this anecdotal levels. >> if you can't raise your own numbers you tear down the other guy. we're starting to see the president engage more forcefully with trump. if you want a window into the mind-set of joe biden politically, read the transcripts from some of his fundraisers. i mean he was in denver this week, and he had a whole litany of things that he went after trump on. i think they just see this -- the most recent one, the aca, you know, this idea that you could have alternatives to the aca from, you know, trump saying that is just manna from heaven for -- anything they could run on. >> they terminated abortion, but

ashley, you know what? here's -- we're going to have to say it, where does he get those messages out to young voters? tiktok. he's got to go to tiktok, right? i mean, i'm serious, they have to get young voters where they live, and it's tiktok, it's instagram. >> tiktok, instagram. >> and you have the biden campaign and the biden white house make this effort to get influencers on board, and what they are doing now actually is interesting. they believe that the people determining the election are not like us. they'll tune in the last two months before. what they need to do is build trust in these communities, right? with people they trust, whether it's on tiktok, someone you follow on instagram, a website you read, a sub stack or a news letter that comes into your inbox every day about fashion or about parenting, and then when there's a trusted source, that person is sort of activated two months before the election to

make their case to people who trust them and with whom they have some credibility. >> all right, "the wall street journal"'s ken thomas, "the washington post" ashley parker, "politico's" eugene daniels and the atlantic's frank thor, thank you all very much. great conversation. frank's book "the last politician: inside joe biden's white house and the struggle for america's future" is available now. congratulations! great book. >> one final item before we go, moments ago a few house republicans divided over whether to oust embattled congressman george santos from office, and they weighed in on today's upcoming vote. >> are you going to vote to expel santos today? >> yes. >> i know that the charges against him are despicable but who am i to say out? the constituents are the ones who are going to kick him out in november or not. >> okay. >> next hour, lawmakers will decide on the resolution to expel santos following that damning ethics report that found evidence he broke the law.

ana cabrera will have that and more when she picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. we'll see you monday. u monday

we begin with