and not get bogged down by all the haters out there. and here's a look at some of the other messages that santos has reported so far. >> hey, your beautiful masters. >> they can booed me out of congress but they can't take away my good humor. >> screw the haters. the haters are gonna hate. >> don't let them force you out. don't let them bully you. >> botox keeps you young. fillers keep you plump. >> you are fabulous, and you are going to slay 2024. in other santos news, an hbo producer is making a movie about him, and, bowen yang, this could be your big moment. on that note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ so, tonight, we are going to spend a lot of time talking about donald trump's increasingly authoritarian rhetoric and his increasingly

authoritarian plans for a second term. congressman adam schiff is standing by for a conversation about all of this. and as the former president urges his supporters to watch voters in detroit, atlanta, and philadelphia, civil rights attorney sherrilyn ifill is going to join me as well. plus, comedian jordan klepper has a way of cutting through the noise when it comes to the right-wing echo chamber. i'm very excited to chat with i'm very excited to chat with him later on in this show. but we do want to start tonight by talking about a world leader who has a history of projecting onto his opponents what he himself is actually doing. on february 27th, 2014, a group of russian men wearing green uniforms and no identifying military insignia took over the capital of ukraine's crimean peninsula and raised their russian flag above the building. in the days that followed, these little green men, as they were called, took over ukrainian military bases and important facilities.

but despite what was clearly a russian-led campaign with russian military to illegally annexed a part of a neighboring country, the kremlin denied their involvement. when president putin was asked about the role of russian soldiers, he completely flipped the argument around. he flipped it around and claimed, quote, those were local self-defense units. when a reporter pushed him on the fact that it looked a whole lot like those were members of the russian army, he even claimed that, quote, you can go to a store and buy that kind of uniform. it's easy to find. his argument was basically that it wasn't the russians who were attacking ukraine, but instead, it was the west who was attacking the russian people. and this was all simply a matter of self-defense.

now, i was at the state department at the time standing at the podium every day. and what we aggressively called out the invasion, by the way, his name on the favorite kremlin targets, we were often on our back heels because the russians said no shame, they took no shame in lying and blurring the lines to create such confusion that it was hard to tell what was fact and what was fiction. we have seen putin continue to use this tactic over the course of the last nearly two years, try to, i should say, claiming ukraine was on a path to using nuclear weapons, really shattering the rooftops. when in reality it was russia, also a country, by the way, with one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world. they were the ones threatening to use them. last february, putin gave a

speech claiming it was the west who started the war in ukraine, not that military invasion that we all saw happen with our own eyes. this pattern of accusing others of what you are in fact doing yourself is a classic kremlin tactic. and if this pattern of projecting onto opponents what you are actually doing sounds familiar, it is because one of putin's admirers is using the same tactics right here in the united states. just this weekend in a speech in cedar rapids, iowa, donald trump said this about president biden. >> joe biden is not the defender of american democracy. joe biden is the destroyer of american democracy.

and it is him and his people that think they can do whatever they want, break any law, tell any lie, ruin any life, trash any norm, and get away with anything they want. >> now, if you ever heard donald trump speak, and i bet you have, you know he says a lot of things often off the cuff. but that was not one of those times, and that's important, because this was on purpose. this was part of a strategy. you can literally see that in black and white, on signs that trump's campaign passed out at the same event, that say biden attacks democracy. and you can see it in a video posted to truth social later that night captioned, crooked joe biden and the anti democratic party, not exactly subtle. this claim of course comes from the man who try to overturn the

last election, the man who accuses democrats of vote rigging, when he is the one who has been criminally charged with defrauding american voters. now, trump's projection is an obvious attempt to muddy the waters, sounds familiar? to blur the lines between facts and fiction, to confuse voters about the actual threat, and to mess with the ability to recognize what israel. if everyone is corrupt, that no one is correct, right? that's the point. this is a tactic you might find on the playground too. the trial saying, i know we've all experienced that. or you might also find it in vladimir putin's russia. and projection has also been a major part of trump's playbook for years. don't forget this exchange from

2016 about who else but putin. >> he'd rather have a topic as president in the united states -- >> no puppet, no puppet. you are the puppet. >> it's pretty clear you wanted him, that the russians -- >> you are the puppet. on top of that, one called a corrupt candidate himself, trump labeled his opponent, crooked hillary. and unfortunately, it kind of worked then, and it might be working now. a recent nbc news poll showed 60% of voters have major or moderate concerns about biden's possible awareness or involvement in the business dealings of his son, despite the fact that even republican members of congress admit there is no evidence to suggest the president did anything wrong. compare that to 62% of voters who have those concerns about trump facing his criminal and civil losses, remember, the guy faces a total of 91 charges across four cases. that is only a two percentage difference in perception. despite an enormous difference in reality. so, what can you do, what should everybody be doing about these skating boys, whether in the kremlin or mar-a-lago? well, the united states did learn a few things since 2014 as well.

when russia invaded ukraine with a more aggressive military campaign in 2022, the united states took a different tactic. that was the white house press secretary at the time, different podium. and a national security team made the decision, we're not gonna rely on condemning putin 's action after they happened alone, and instead, we are going to verbally punch the bully proactively, verbally. we released previously classified intelligence that exposed russia's plans to invade ukraine. and it wasn't just about naming and shaming. it was actually about exposing their plans, to make it more difficult for them to implement them. and also equipped our allies and partners around the world with the information they needed to fight back. and that brings me back to how to combat trump and his own use of the kremlin playbook. the thing is, we can't relax and assume most people will see through it, and will recognize the absurdity of these

arguments because they won't necessarily, and they aren't. and an effort to project on his opponents what he's actually doing is to some degree working, at least better than it should be working, which is why it needs to be called out aggressively and specifically. otherwise, trump may just be able to follow the kremlin playbook right back into the white house. joining me now is congressman adam schiff, he was an impeachment manager during donald trump's first impeachment trial. he was a member of the house select committee on january 6th, and he knows a thing or two about dealing with propaganda

and all sorts of belize. congressman, thank you so much for joining me this evening. i want to start with some of what what i just went through because clearly what trump did this weekend, accusing joe biden of being anti-democratic, i see some parallels here with what the kremlin has done in the past, they're tactic of projecting what they're doing on to their opponent. do you? >> absolutely. there is a real method to donald trump's madness, and it's not a playbook that he created. it's one that has been used, i think, by autocrats the world over and for a long time. and that is accuse your opponents of what you do. you know, donald trump's argument is really not that he is not corrupt or that he's not a liar. rather, his argument is

everyone is corrupt, everyone are liars. but i am your crook. i am your liar. you should be with me. and it's not just donald trump using this playbook, it's also republicans in congress. donald trump gets impeached on a legitimate basis twice. so, if they were to impeach joe biden illegitimately, why? to dilute the stage, to accuse biden the same kind of misconduct that trump committed when there's absolutely no misconduct in the case. joe biden, rather an effort by republicans in congress, to muddy the waters, to dilute the state of what donald trump won through. you see it in people like elise stefanik, nancy pelosi,

accusing her of being authoritarian or an autocrat. it's absurd. but if they can persuade enough people that, oh, everybody does it, then they hope to at least muddy the waters. they undoubtedly are aware that americans are deeply concerned with trump's anti democratic plans. his statements about terminating the constitution, his intention to eviscerate the civil service, and so much more, weaponize the justice department. and he is trying to muddy the waters. >> you know, the muddying -- it's laughable, it's maddening,

it's absurd as you said. but sometimes, it also works. that's why people keep doing it. i mean, what should everybody be doing to prevent this projection tactic from working? >> you are right. it seems almost laughable to hear donald trump accuse somebody of violating norms. i think it may be the first time we've heard that word out of his mouth. but in terms of what we can do, i think you are exactly right. we have to be proactive. when we see, as we are now, donald trump saying that he would be winning in california and new york and these other states, if only elections were not rigged, we need to prepare voters for inevitable claims of rigging in the elections when they come. we saw in the last presidential cycle that donald trump said that he lost his early lead. it would have been because of fraud. we need to get out ahead and remind people, no, the absentee ballots often looked very different on the ballots cast on election day because democrats use them more extensively and republicans. so, we need to remind people of the facts in advance. we need to expose what donald trump is saying and arguing. and, you know, demonstrate the fragrances of these falsehoods and keep, you know, holding his feet to the fire. >> one of your former colleagues, liz cheney, just wrote a book. it's coming out tomorrow. rachel maddow is interviewing her shortly. she had this to say. i want you to listen to

something she had to say and get yo he will just try to stay in power. we have seen that in other autocracies, and we have seen it work in other autocracies. what do you think? pr he lost. but they should listen to what donald trump has to say today. that when he loses, contest it. whatever his pl way, so his res i'm simply gu>> all me th when d supporters in weekend, he renewed re cities. >> the most important what's coming up is to guard the vote, and you should go and we gotta watc those votes wr wheelbarrows, everyone saying -- we ar c alarm bells. a civil rights attorney, sherrilyn ifill, but it, quote, it wasn't just 2020, the threat inciting his followers to target votes cast by black voters continues. sherrilyn ifill is the former president of the naacp, legal defense fund. she's now a visiting professor at herbert law school, and she joins me now. sherrilyn, thank you so much for joining me this evening. i just wanted to start there because donald trump, as you've said, is once again targeting black voters and democratic run cities. there is no coincidence here. you pointed out that this is not getting nearly enough attention. i completely agree. let's raise some alarms here. what is he trying to do? >> well, it's all a piece, jen, with the conversation you were having with representative schiff. you know, donald trump has always used race as the stalking voice for his

authoritarian ambitions. and i have, you know, made no secret of the fact that i think that this has been underplayed from the moment that he talked during the campaign about a federal district judge, judge curio, whom he said was mexican, and therefore could not vote in his favor because we are trying to build a wall. and he was allowed to get away with that. at some point, the chief

justice of the united states pushed back on the idea of obama judges, as you may recall in a speech. he said there's no such thing as obama judges and trump judges. but when trump said something about judge curio being a mexican, we did not hear anything from the chief justice of the united states. you recall that trump disparaged a civil rights hero, john lewis. he disparaged elijah cummings. he regularly talked about cities that had a predominantly black population. and his election strategy, which is why he was sued under the kkk act by the legal defense fund, and later by jack smith, was to target precincts in philadelphia, atlanta, detroit, milwaukee. there are reasons why he's targeting those particular precincts. and everything he does, if you think about it, his attacks on ruby freeman and shaye moss, the only way to convince his followers that they were up to no good, that they were, what did he call them, hustlers. the way rudy giuliani could say they were passing flash drives around like it was drugs, like it was heroin. this was all tapping into racial tropes that trump has use. and the failure, i think, of too many in the political realm and certainly in the media is to play down the fact that he uses race as a way to bring his followers along on the project. and the failure to call out the racism from its earliest days, and still until this day, is part of what has allowed trump to move forward unimpeded. and it is incredibly dangerous, but it is a feature of what he always talks about. he did not just talk about the

city's. he said we are about to become a third world nation. all of the bells and whistles are there. and fortunately, trump did not create racism in america or white supremacy. but when he makes those comments, they tap into something that already exists in too much of the american public. and so, always look for it, listen to the pronunciation, atlanta, philadelphia. you know, he has fixed when he's trying to signal something about race. we have to get better at seeing what's happening and understanding how this authoritarian project is being deployed. and i think far too many people are uncomfortable with the idea of focusing on the racist aspect of it, but it is they are staring us in the face. >> it's very clear. and you have been trumpeting this, and we want to, and we are trying to hear as well. i want to ask you about the 14th amendment because you have been very outspoken. you are also launching a whole, a whole center at howard university.

so we are very focused on this. and you wrote an op-ed after the colorado decision where the judge, the district court judge, basically said trump was guilty of insurrection, but said he shouldn't be kicked off the ballot, which is very confusing as a non lawyer. and you said, which stuck with me in this op-ed, almost from its inception, all the amendments radical provisions have inspired fear and timidity in jurists of every stripe. why are they so afraid? >> because i think the ambitions of the 14th amendment were great. the ambitions of the 14th amendment were designed to make black people first class citizens. and they also recognized that

white supremacy was stubborn and it would be with us for a while, that insurrection had to be met with strength. all of these things are right there in the letter of the 14th amendment. and it has always been the case that the 14th amendment has been underplayed, that even where judges find violations, they have refused to provide a remedy as in the trump case. i mean, if you find that he participated in an insurrection, section three of the 14th amendment tells you he cannot

serve. he cannot run on the ballot for either state or federal office. but there is always a way, right from the brown decision, as you may recall, that yes, segregation violates the constitutional rights of black students. but with all deliberate speed while figuring out how we are going to desegregate, there's always a way in which courts try to pull up sharp. and i think this is important because one of the things that donald trump is expert at is running roughshod over law. and he almost, it's almost his superpower. he gets comes up every time he's successful. and he should not be allowed to run you through the 14th amendment anyone who should be allowed to run over the state laws that are the subject of litigations and federal laws that are subject to litigation that he is facing. and even in that context, when trump is so outrageous that he's willing to call the attorney general of the united

states, peekaboo. you know, we have explained that this is a racist slur. and yet, he's allowed to say it. and it's not like a front page issue every time he says it. it doesn't stop everyone in their tracks, and we just talk about the fact that he is describing the attorney general of united states in a blatantly racist terms. we just keep it moving because it's trump. and that has to stop. it is offensive, but it also is what allows him to build his power, and it allows us to become complicit in his project. >> well, we got a call it out, that's what i'm hearing from you. and, sherrilyn ifill, we have all learned about the 14th amendment over the last year. you probably know more than most of us. so, i'm looking forward to seeing what you do at the center of howard university. really appreciate you joining actually the modern alter trump voters acrosshe wil quick br♪ ♪ ♪ klepper has spent more tha more time than most talking to trump voters across th country. he will join me to talk abou what he has been seeing an hearing. we have to know this we're just getting started tonight. we'll be right back after quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪ -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health.

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so, if you have been paying attention to the republican primary race, you have noticed that nikki haley is kind of having a moment. donald trump is definitely still leading by enormous margins in the early states and nationally. but haley is creeping up on ron desantis, she is moving into second place in lots of polls. she is spending endorsements, the coke group just endorsed her. and the ceo of morgan chase jamie dimon is now urging business leaders and even democrats to back her. there is growing hope among

some that she is a sane moderate alternative to trump. but is she actually? i mean, sure, she doesn't go on unhinged rants against the free press and the justice department. she doesn't go on tirades about blocking up her political enemies nor does she resort to racist tropes. she is far less grazing how she behaves, no question. but the question is how will she actually govern and what does she actually believe? the answer to that question is a lot closer to trump and the maga universe than you might think. yes, she sounds moderate on abortion and talks about the national consensus, which is not gonna happen. but she also said she would have signed a six-week abortion ban as governor of south carolina. she doesn't talk about shooting migrants like ron desantis, that's good. but she said she would send u. s. forces into mexico to fight the drug trade. she is not perceived as the same sort of culture warrior for some of her opponents, but she's also said the florida

don't say gay bill doesn't go far enough. and she said, on the issue of trans athletes, the woman's issue of the time. i don't think so. when it comes to entitlements and social security in particular, haley is actually further to the right than any other candidate in the republican primary field, including donald trump. she wants to raise the retirement age for young people in particular at a time when life expectancy in this country is dropping. and then, there is some policy proposals that are slightly more obscure, and they are no less of concerning. they tell us a lot about how she govern and that's important. and they sound a lot like the same anti-administrative state policies that trump himself is proposing. haley has proposed to impose a five-year term limit on all civil servants in the federal government. now, that may sound nerdy, or

aquatic, maybe a little bit. but what it means is that epidemiologists tracking the next pandemic and experts tracking inflation and unemployment would not get to stay on across administrations, and purging these people after just five years on the job risks getting our government at a time when institutional knowledge makes the transition of power moved smoothly. it makes it less stable. so, yes, it is definitely a good thing, unquestionably, that she isn't launching into unhinged rents and echoing the language of dictators. but it's also important to dig into what she said she would actually do as president. you might find it isn't so moderate after all. coming up, what does the slim pack nomination looked like for anyone not named trump. the great amy walter of the politico report is standing by. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪

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away from the next republican primary debate. and just over 40 days from that iowa caucus, it's not that long. so, it actually needs to happen for one of donald trump's challengers, like say nikki haley for example, to make this a real race. amy walter has been diving into this and many other things. she is the publisher and editor in chief for the politico report, and she joins me right here. hello. i don't know if you're gonna break heart or what's gonna happen here. but does nikki haley have a path to actually beat trump in the primary? and what does that look like if she does? >> well, there have been three different theories of this case,

of how to beat donald trump, embodied by the three types of candidates. so, you have the let's go right at donald trump and punch him in the face -- >> which is obviously the chris christie scenario, or even mike pence sort of calling him out, which people thought you have to do that in order to beat him. and then the two of them -- >> it's not working out. then, you go to the secondary case, which is ron desantis, which is to the right of him and saying that he's not concerned enough on issues that core conservative primary voters care about, like critical race theory, or transgender sports or those sorts of things. that hasn't worked very well. now, enter nikki haley who was trying to thread this needle, some people call it the gold watch strategy -- >> oh god, what does that mean, gold watch? >> like trying to get somebody to retire. you've done a great job, you've been a great president. >> it's not the time for him, she said.

>> she doesn't say the word donald trump, but her ad says it's time to basically go to a new generation and move past the chaos. now, she could say, well, i'm applying that to joe biden. but clearly, that could also apply to donald trump. is that gonna work? this idea of being able to keep with the voters that already like her, in part because she's not donald trump, and then, win over the segment of the electorate that still likes donald trump, and right now, tell pollsters they're open to looking around. now, being open to looking around and actually making someone else other than donald trump, that is a big, big difference. >> let's get down to the brass tacks of it, it's 40 days to iowa, a week later in new

hampshire. there's also theory of what her path is here. does she have to win iowa? >> no, i think she does well enough in iowa, let's say she does come second in iowa -- >> beats desantis. >> desantis in her wake, or what if she is even a point behind desantis. being second would be best for her. she then goes to new hampshire, a great state for her. chris christie, again, this is all theoretical, but if chris christie drops out, endorses her, the governor of new hampshire sununu endorses her. that gives her all this momentum. she takes that momentum and has to sit with it for a month, and go to south carolina, her home state. >> so that's the theory of the case -- >> that's the theory. and then somehow, in that month between new hampshire and south carolina, build up a strong enough grassroots and infrastructure to be able to compete on super tuesday -- >> which donald trump has already prepared to do -- tons of money on the ground. >> super pacs.

>> i mean, this has been one republican sentiment, you know, at the very beginning of this race, the theory was, you know, like in an uncomfortable relationship, or a relationship that you feel like, is this really working? maybe i should look around, maybe i should date other people. republican voters were willing to look around to see if they wanted to date other people. but they are just not that into anybody that's left. not enough of them, enough of them now are sold on trump. >> i don't know what the analogy is, not leaping to the other date. still dating your boyfriend -- i don't know. >> let them work on that. >> we're gonna think about that for your next column. you recently wrote a piece about the poll numbers and how

difficult they are for joe biden. and that's a lot of questions about past precedent and people comparing them. give us a take here, how bad are they? should people be worried? should they be medium worried? >> listen, it's worrisome. you know this better than anyone to be a sitting president with an approval rating somewhere around 40%. we have never had a president reelected with an approval rating under 48%. so, that's not great. the think about donald trump's poll numbers, though, if you look over the course of these last few weeks, look at the state polls. obviously, those are the most important because of the electoral college. even as biden's numbers have dropped from where he was in 2020, trump's numbers haven't gone up from where he was in 2020. so this is really the issue. trump has this sort of ceiling. we have seen it, 2016 to 2020, even as he gains voters, he doesn't gain enough vote share. so, that is where you can see a lot of people that are leaving biden, but they are not yet sold on donald trump. it feels like the challenge for

over my walterwe coming u steve banno later, i will as editgood for them. we are back after a quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ill ask comedian jordan klepper about a crazy thing that happened on fox new over the weekend, a correc editorial decision good for them. we are back after a quic break. ♪ ♪ ♪ sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save.

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right-wing circles here in the united states. about a week and a half ago, there was a horrific stabbing outside of a school in dublin. five people were injured including three children. and in the wake of that appalling attack, a right-wing outlet publicized the identity of the suspect as an algerian national. that helped spark a wave of racist anti immigrant outrage online. right-wing agitators took to social media, spreading baseless rumors about the attack, and the motivations behind it, and urged violence in the streets. as one voice message said, 7:00, be in town. everyone, bally up, tool up. let's get this on the news. let's show the effing media that we are not a pushover, that no more foreigners are allowed to this proxy country. it worked because by that evening, a crowd of some few hundred right wing protesters were clashing with irish police

in the streets of dublin in some of the worst violence the city has seen in decades. stores were looted and properties destroyed. in the aftermath of the rioting, ireland's police chief andrew harris blamed the rioting on a lunatic hooligan faction driven by far-right ideology. and the irish prime minister said the country had endured two attacks, one on children and another on the country's rule of law. now, since the attack, we have of course learned that the suspect is an algerian national and also a naturalized irish citizen who's lived in the country for 20 years. and while we are accounting for nationalities, we also know that the delivery men who helped seduce the suspect is an immigrant, of course, from brazil. folks from ireland and beyond have actually raised over 300,000 euros to buy a man a pint as a way of saying thank you. now, while ireland grapples

with this attack and the ensuing right wing violence, far-right activists here in united states have seized upon the dublin riot in attempt to bolster their own view and enrich their supporters here at home. neo-nazi hitler admirer and one time trump guest nick fuentes said that ireland is on the brink of civil war. trump strategist steve bannon declared that ireland is a powder keg. to be clear, it is definitely not. in ireland right now, there appears to be a small but growing anti-immigration movement, as the number of immigrants and asylum seekers into the country rises. but the american right, far right, is doing everything it can to embolden that movement, and amused it's evidence for its own fearmongering and demagoguery. >> the irish government is trying to displace the population of ireland with people from the third world,

obviously. >> you are talking about the replacement theory and people get upset when you talk about it, because just look at the math, this is happening across europe. >> replacement theory. we've heard them say that a lot. bannon and tucker carlson are openly promoting there. that's what they're talking about. it is basically a racist far-right doctrine that used to be the stuff of fringe neo-nazi chat rooms and clansmen like david duke before that. and it has been brought to the american conservative mainstream thanks to fingers like them. and, yes, thanks to donald trump. it is a conspiracy that governments or elites are importing migrants to replace natural born citizen's. it's been the reported motivation in multiple mass shootings in recent years. and yet, it remains regular conservative dogma. the richest man in the world and the owner of the platform formerly known as twitter, elon

musk, openly endorsed it. republican politicians have invoked him to talk about immigration on the southern border. and of course, there is trump himself who ran his 2016 presidential campaign on building a southern border wall and implementing a muzzle man, and who just a few months ago said this about immigrants coming into the united states. >> nobody has any idea where prisons. we know they come from mental institutions. we know now. t is a very sad thing for our country. it is poisoning the blood of our country. >> fear. see, what happened in ireland recently is just a microcosm of what is happening in western right-wing movements around the world, using fear of the other to spark and anger driven political movement. it is also a warning about the violence that it can provoke. and here in the night states, this is extending well beyond the fringes. just look at the texas republican party. over the weekend, the texas republican party executive committee rejected a proposed ban on associating with the nazi sympathizers. the resolution did nothing specific individuals, associations, or anything like that. it was simply a statement of principle, a principle that a majority of that republican executive committee voted down. there was a time, not that long ago, when associating with these neo-nazis and white nationalist ideas was disqualifying for people to serve in public office. but in today's republican party, it's almost becoming standard, thanks in part to the work of the right-wing ecosystem that continues to fan these flames. coming up, one of my favorite observers of right-wing media and donald trump, also happens to be a comedian. jordan klepper is standing by and he joins me next. ♪ ♪ ♪

so, i try not to spend too much time analyzing what our friends on other networks are doing or not to. but this weekend, fox news did something a little surprising for them. and i'm gonna play this moment for you. here it is. >> he said we've got that red button on my desk, he said. i said i have a red button also but mine is bigger, better, and it works, mind you. >> the former president finally got around with some campaign promises and lots of cheering as you heard, many on truths the 2020 election was not rigged. it was not stolen. >> it was not rigged. it was not stolen. see, fox news is capable of saying it. good job, good job! not only did the network cut away from a trump rally where he spewed the same lies and disinformation he's always spewing. they also fact checked it in realtime and you may be thinking, okay, this is a good

sign. it's not so simple because a 30 second fact-check is not going to dismantle that chamber of disinformation that helped cement his hold on the gop and one that is still very active, as we have been talking about in this show. and just listen to what some iowa voters told nbc news this weekend. >> when you start looking at the news, and the news is painting him as a villain, they are using satellites. i said, you know what, i'm gonna rally behind this guy. >> he has done more for our country than any other president in my lifetime. >> joining me now is someone who spent a whole lot of time speaking with trump voters and is all too familiar with the cycle of disinformation, comedian jordan klepper. thank you so much for joining me this evening. i just want to start with fox. i mean, what fox did this weekend was good. they fact checked him. they cut him off. that's a good thing. but i want to ask you, even if they continue to do that, how much does it actually matter and how baked-in is kind of his support for trump in the maga world already? >> it should be pointed out, i

think, when you pay out a billion dollars, you get a little bit more cautious about the things that go on your airwaves. >> it turns out -- >> it turns out. i mean, there is something to it. you can only watch an ingrid man spewing verbal feces so long without getting born. at some point, this does start to feel like everyone. and you certainly see this everywhere. trump does exist. what i start to experience when i talk to people is they are not even paying attention to entire speeches anymore. if you actually watch a full trump rally, it is chaotic, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. in many ways, the editor saves the point of view of donald trump and makes it more coherent than it is. although i admire fox for attempting to stop all of this free advertising, you also have to be aware of the fact that this man makes a career out of

being a victim, and then pulling something away actually creates more of a narrative for him, and listening to him just babble on it coherently. >> yeah, and there's an entire massive eco chamber that is outside of fox, that is still functioning. so, you have been doing, i watch a lot of these. i'm a big viewer of jordan klepper stuff and clips. you spent so much time out there talking to trump voters outside of rallies and other events. sometimes, i am watching these in this belief, as i'm sure many people are. how do you kind of approach these conversations? do you know where they're gonna go? do you have any idea where they're gonna go? >> i mean, what you do if you watch right-wing media. you get a deep, which i wouldn't recommend for most viewers, but you go in there

and hear what the talking points are. we bring those talking points to people. we try to shed some rational thought and debate on it. and then, we are consistently surprised, as the people we talk to. i think what i find is when i go to a maga event and talk to somebody, they haven't had a conversation with somebody asked the first question. we are all stuck in these little eco chambers, and we are challenged on our point of views. and neither is donald trump. it's either they don't have an answer for the logical fallacies, and that's where you see them try to fill in the spaces with bs, which makes for comedy, terror, but always surprised with that. >> we even look surprised on your face sometimes, i'm sure you are frequently. i mean, part of the game seems to be, and we've been talking about this this evening, i mean, keeping people outraged, viewers outrage about anything. there's always something to be fearful of, something to be angry about. and of course the great example is what we experience every year, and you just did this hilarious thing on is the war on christmas. and you and one of your daily show colleagues ventures to the fox headquarters. i want to play just a part of

this segment. >> fox is saying there is a war on christmas. >> i think there is. >> if i were to say happy holidays, what will that make you feel? >> i am -- i correct you. >> people say happy holidays. fox is really proud about saying merry christmas. they say there is a war on christmas. >> there is. >> there is a war on christmas? >> you look at all the businesses and the corporations, that have been, you know, not allowed to say that. i think the people are scared about christianity, about the faith. >> sure, there is a war on christmas. and the group facing the more vitriol for sure are christians. >> christians? right now -- >> i mean -- [laughter] christians right now, i don't know if they are the biggest

target of vitriol. but as anyone can see, watching that, there is literally massive christmas trees standing behind everybody, and christmas decorations behind everybody. how do you think they keep this ruse going as long as they have? >> they broadcast it into the homes of many board people who have no experience in the world outside of what the tv tells them. even that couple, we had a longer conversation. and they were lovely, articulate couple who felt there was a war on christmas. but when we asked them, have you experienced this? can you not say merry christmas anymore? they said, oh, no, it's totally fine where we are. but there is definitely a war on christmas. and i have done segments on the

war on christmas in the years past. and that is always the case, the people who feel there is a war don't experience the war. but they're watching constant wartime footage on whatever device they have in front of them that is telling them, it's fearful. they are taking it away. you are the victim. and so you hit people who are close minded, and they feel like their religion, their point of view, there believes are the number one culprit, number one thing that people are attacking in this country. and then you go to new york, that liberal hellhole, and then they celebrate christmas oblivious to the reality. >> the liberal hellhole with all the christmas trees, liberal hellhole. very quickly, before i let you here and go at it head on. desantis and haley, this debating, a person was not even running for president. and haley is running nomini think people need to attk what's happening righ at the base. please, have more of these conversations. >> jordan klepper, thank you for offering your services. that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. show. i disagree with liz cheney about everything.it my whole adult life on everything in politics i would not just say that liz cheney and i were on different proverbial teams, i would say we were from