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it's saturday, december the 9th. i'm ali velshi. we begin this hour with a new threat to democracy from donald trump and the active measures that he and his acolytes are taking the follow-through on them. a stolen trump campaigns for second term in the white house while facing dozens of criminal charges that imperil his freedom, he has made it explicitly clear that he intends to bend the american government to his will if he returns to power. the whole political apparatus already exists that is ready to go. its members are even talking about these plans right out on the open. donald trump himself is so emboldened to be throwing around the d word. >> reporter: you're promising to america tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody? >> except for day one. >> i love this, guy he says you're not going to be a dictator, are? you know, other than day one.

we're closing the border and were drilling, drilling, drilling. after that, i'm not a dictator. >> they traded for a day is not a thing, at least according to the u.s. constitution, but if trump wins a second term, he won't need a date to, because his team has a game plan ready to go, and they can do a lot of damage right from the beginning. take for example trump's renewed promise to close the border on day one, which calls to mind the first week of his first term in the white house. just seven days into the job, trump signed an executive order producing the number of refugees allowed in from seven predominantly muslim countries. it was hastily done in cause chaos in the immigration system and prompted protesters to hold demonstrations. lawyers camped out of airports and offer their services to help those who were affected, in the order itself got tangled up in the legal battle. the architect of that order was this man, trump senior adviser, stephen miller, who's likely to lead trump's immigration efforts again if he wins a second term. last month, the new york times

reported that those efforts will include sweeping raids, giant detention camps along the border, mass deportations of millions of people each year. according to miller himself, trump will unleash the vast arsenal of federal powers to implement the most spectacular migration crackdown. the immigration legal activists won't know what is happening, end quote. apparently, that is the lesson trump learned from the first time around, and that is the point. miller alongside trump's other close allies and acolytes have identified the problem areas that prevented them from an acting the most extreme policies during his first term, and they have learned how to get around the guardrails that act that's checks on the presidents power. far from being deterred by those earlier shortcomings and failures, they take away from trump's inner circle has been if they get another four years in the white house, they will operate without any restraints. >> we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. yes, we are going to come after

the people in the media who lied about american citizens, who helped joe biden get presidential elections, we're going to come after you. whether -- it's we will figure that out, but we are putting you on notice. >> you are going to have to actually canada. that was cash patel by the way, who worked in the national security council and defense department during the trump administration saying the quiet part completely out loud. trump's second term would crack down on dissent, it would stifle free speech opposition inside outside the federal government. they would go after journalists. that effort is already underway with project 2025. it's a planned overhaul the staffing of executive branch agencies that could involve thousands of bureaucratic employees, replaced by people who are perfectly aligned with trump's ideology. as johnmcentee, a former trump white house aide who is no involved in project 1:25, told the new york times this summer, quote, it is not enough to get the personal right. what is necessary is a complete

system overall. fealty to donald trump will be the only thing that matters. experience, expertise, and independence from political influence would become a thing of the pass. despite trump's very long history of lying, there are some things that he and his allies are saying now that we actually have to save very seriously because they are sending a message and warning about what is to come. joining me now is someone who's been serving that warning for years about the dangers that th poses to democracy. michael cohen is a former personal attorney to donald trump, he is the principal of the crisis management firm crisis acts. he's author of the new york times bestselling book, revenge, how donald trump weaponize the department justice against his critics and disloyal, a memoir. he's also the host of the podcast mayor coppa with michael cohen in the political beat down. michael, good to see. you thank you for being here. listen, the weird part about the story, you've actually been saying this for a long time, that this is what he is going to do if given half of the chance.

and he is not hiding. it is people are not hiding it. the stuff there cash patel just said, they're basically saying, we're going after, critics were going after enemies, were going after the opposition. >> listen, ali, don't listen to what michael cohen is saying. don't listen to what ali velshi is saying or any of the peninsula you see on television. listen to what donald is saying. that is the whole point, and yes, i have talked about this going back three years, two years, and then when my book revenge came out, it's all laid out in. that donald trump does not want to be president of the united states. how many times i said it? even on the show? he wants to be the dictator, the monarch, the fewer, the king. that is what he aspires to be. and when he says that he is going to be dictator on day one, i want to ask you this question, and i want to ask your viewers question. what --

when was last time somebody became a dictator for just one day and then decided to give it up? the answer of course is never. lowenthal tasted that power, he craves it more and more, and everybody, when he says for example like the president in the ceo of the station of msnbc, he will jail him, or joint chief of staff mark milley, he will execute him, don't laugh and just say, donald is a dope. he's just being bluster and he's being donald. he is being dead serious. >> but that is exactly what people say. that is exactly what people say, and you know, because you talk to them. that is what he does. that is how he talks. you've known him for a long time. how do you delineate between the bluster. you talk last year about getting where the constitution. i mean, how do you know what is a joke and what is not with donald trump? >> first of, all donald trump does not. joe he does not have a sense of humor. ask anybody knows him, have you

ever heard donald tell a joke, and the answer is no. everything that he is saying is on his mind. he is so emboldened right now to say what he wants. he sees himself right now as the obvious republican nominee. and so at least it is a 50/50 election between him and joe biden. however, with all of the polls now bolstering him and saying that he beats joe biden, his rhetoric is going to get more and more dangerous, it is going to get more and more anti democratic. he is going to continue to say these things which just make you scratch your head and say, how are, we as americans, even allowing somebody who says the sort of stuff to run for the office of the presidency. we are right now in a position where we will lose democracy in 2024. and i don't want to be right.

unfortunately, knowing donald as well as i do and seeing the writing on the wall, i know that i am. >> let me ask you about. this what if it is not about control and dictatorship, but it's about the thing that you know very well with him, and that is about loyalty. a lot of the people around him are saying that it's about loyalty and fealty. don trump is not going to pick up cabinet based on their skill set and their experience. he's going to pick his cabinet or his advisers based on how loyal they are to him. parts that for me. is that less or more important, is it less real or more real, less real or more threatening? >> it is more threatening than most people could possibly imagine. you will have an entire transition team of loyalists. you will also have members of the military sign a loyalty oath to who? to him. when we go back to what i just said before. when was the last time that we had a president or any significant leader in this

country ask another person to take a loyalty oath not to the constitution, not to american democracy, but to that individual. i mean, that is an autocratic mindset. that is what a king does. think about all of the movies that you have seen about kings. it's like, i pledge to the king, all hail the king. that is what donald. wants wants to be like a mohammad bin salman. he wants to be like kim jong-un, or like vladimir putin. in the thing that most people are ignoring, and this applies to everyone, when donald has full authority in full power, you can't imagine the things that he is going to do, how far he is going to press the line. if you think vladimir putin, russia entering ukraine's for a land grab, but what do you think donald is going to do? if he becomes a dictator?

mexico! canada! whatever aborting countries are. and so you said that you're running to canada, and you know half of my family lives in toronto. i can only tell you, we can't go to canada because eventually canada will become -- to america. i know people say stop at michael, it's all hyperbole. no, it's not. ellipses himself not as a human. he sees himself as a god. he believes himself to be above all of us and that he wants to be the king. >> do you believe he really believes that, for he's able to convince people that he is riding that wave? convince people th>> no, i thinw has convinced himself. that is the classic definition of a sociopath. that is what donald has become. with the people around him constantly providing him with accolades and pats on the back, you're right donald, you're right. all of a sudden it is like, i'm

going to be a dictator on day one! come on! who is the last dictator that the united states ended up fighting? we all know it was world war ii. donald trump will put this country and to a third world war. and the problem for people like myself is that i have a son and a daughter who are of fighting age, and i don't see my children off to war. i don't see anybody's children off to war, but donald trump will do it. why? because it is part of that loyalty of. it is the fealty to the king. send them, out whatever happens to them, i don't care as long as i get what i want. that is all that trump is about, getting what he wants. >> michael, as always, i appreciate your analysis. >> ali, as i say, be afraid. the very afraid! >> now he's actually telling us! his people actually telling us!

all the stuff that you are talking about. thank you very much, michael cohen, former personal of donald trump. most of the mea culpa podcast. michael cohen and political beat down. we just crossed the surface of the potential threats to democracy of the second trump presidency would post. coming up, we will take a closer look at some of the very specific ways in which a second trump term would be worse than the first based on the things that trump has already said and done. then, how much of the attention is being paid israel and gaza, the war in ukraine rages on. the much-needed u.s. aid is not being held up by republicans in congress. plus, we have today's meeting of the velshi banned book club, the drink it's a very classic, the perks of being a wall flower with the offer chivas -- steven scherbenske. only 20 pages in the book, there's a line that is becoming a very big part of american culture. so widely applicable, it's hard to believe it wasn't written before 1999. quote, we accept the love we think we deserve. we deserve blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours.

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brutal winter of war, fighting to protect its borders from russia. it's worth noting, again, as we enter day 654 of this war that vladimir putin thought his invading forces could capture kyiv, the capital of ukraine, and three days time. the ukrainian resistance has been nothing short of extraordinary. but asaws closer to its second anniversary, it's starting to lookrne's time might be runnt. according to the wall street journal, western diplomats and mili strategists have described the ukraine military as depleted and say that t may not be able to mount another significant counteroffensive until 2025. this is an important date. also this week, the chief of staff for ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy warned that without more u.s. military assistance, ukraine faces a big risk of losing the war. unfortunately, that much-needed

aid is not likely to come soon. senate republicans are now holding up president biden's 110 billion dollar national security package, which includes roughly 50 billion dollars in assistance for ukraine. senate minority leader mitch mcconnell said republicans will not vote for the bill unless it is amended to include new border security measures, which is no small demand, given that lawmakers from both parties have been failing to enact meaningful border security and immigration reform for decades. and ukraine, it bears repeating, does not have decades to spare. former united states ambassador to russia michael mcfaul told me last night that this is dead serious and that more ukrainian soldiers will die. a top u.s. budget official underscored th, ying to congress, this is not a next year problem. quote, there is nmagical part of funding available t meet this moment. cutting offhelow of u.s. weapons and equipment will kneecap ukraine on the battlefield, not only putting at risk the gains ukraine has made, but increasing the likelihood of russian military

victories, end quote. joining me now is michael mcfaul, united states ambassador to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst. he's also the author of the book from cold war to hot peace, an american ambassador in putin's russia. i know this is not -- a because he and i talked late last night. so, ambassador thank you for being here. we don't want to get -- that's, right you and i had about the same amount of. sleep we don't to get into the business of comparing tragedies in wars, because all wars are bad, but there is something existential about this one that maybe americans are not registering. we did not all think about ukraine a lot, two years ago, a lot of people probably couldn't find it on a map, but now we are understanding that for a russia that wishes to be an expansionist force, ukraine is actually really, really important. and if it falls, there is much more danger to come in the world. >> i think that is absolutely right. remember, this is the first major conventional war in europe since 1945, since world

war ii. remember why we fought that war. we fought that war to stop annexation. and by the way, for decades, we did a good job with that. we got rid of annexation by and large there were some pockets of it, and we also fought that war to end imperialism. i think that is really important for people to realize. we ended imperialism and the annexation. this is a return to that. and if we go back to that world, we go back to a hobbs ian anarchic world where there are real wars all the time, that's not a world i want to go back to, and that is why we need to support the ukrainians now so that russia does not advance to threaten the rest of europe and pulls into those kind of europe's, especially when this kind of future conflicts would include nato allies where we have a treaty obligation to fight with them. right, so that is an interesting point. if russia goes beyond ukraine,

which volodymyr lewinsky suggested he will, and if you study vladimir putin's writings and speeches, there have been those implications. if they hit a nato country, if they say they want to go for a nato country, we are in that war one way or another. we have an obligation under article five in nato to be involved in that. so we can either do this now or we can do it later in a actual full war fashion. >> tragically, i think that is true. and again, go back to world war ii, where there is annexation, we're just going to take this, we're just going to take that. that is what hitler said. we put our head in the sand and we said, not our problem. that is war far, far away, and then even after 1939 when he learned to poland, we still said not our problem. then we were attacked in 1941, and it became a problem. and so rather than waiting at that moment, right now is an amazing deal for american national security. this appropriation, 50 or 60

billion dollars, allows us to allow the ukrainians to fight the threatening enemy, the russian army, without american soldiers having to be involved. it is an incredible deal for american national security. >> let's talk about another thing that you raised last night, that is there are other issues in the world. china eyeing taiwan and other places in asia. there is around, which is not looking for territorial expansion, but is involved in all sorts of other fights around the world. this is a message. there are watching this very carefully. if america stops its support for ukraine, the message to many of these people around the world's america is not going to police this sort of thing around the world. i know there are not a lot of americans don't want to be us in that role, but without it, there will be expansionism in other places, not just having to do with russia. >> that is exactly right. for a couple of reasons. number one, all those countries that you just talked about are all aligned together, right?

the president of iran was literally just in moscow yesterday. who does iran fund? they fund hamas and hezbollah. if we help putin win in ukraine, william helping iran. they are all live. same with china. who is china's number one partner in the world? russia. and if we embolden putin, if we allowed him to succeed in ukraine, that makes a possible attack on taiwan much more likely. if we lose a credibility in the world, if we are not consider credible, and we are going to be there for a while and we are going to pull back, that emboldens all of this kind of ironic -- autocratic countries and movements around the world, and eventually that comes back to haunt us because we won't be able to keep our head in the sand if there's conflict in places like israel, like taiwan. conflict i places l>> ambassador, always a pleasure to get your analysis, even when some grim. stuff we appreciated. the former united states ambassador michael mcfaul,

msnbc's international affairs analyst and author of from cold war to hot peace, an american ambassador in putin's russia. coming, up the humanitarian crisis in gaza is getting so by the world health organization says that more palestinians could soon die from disease than from actual strikes by israel. coming up next, i will talk to a former minister from the palestinian authority about this catastrophe. astrophe to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10

a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card,

you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. humanitarian operations in

the gaza strip have crumbled, as israel's bombing campaign now enters its third month. on thursday, the united nations humanitarian chief announced, quote, we do not have a humanitarian operation in southern gaza that can be called by that name anymore. tens of thousands of displaced palestinian civilians are now cramped into two tiny patches of land, one along the coastline and the other in the border city of rafah. located in the far south. the u.n. has slammed these sites as a poorly planned

solution who's overcrowded and unsanitary conditions make them rife for spredisee and hunger. conditions at the sites have deteriorated to the point where there's only one toilet for every 600 people according to a u.n. report. as a result, the world health organization warns that more palestinians could soon die from disease banned from bombs. meanwhile on thursday, israel announced it would open a second crossing into gaza restricted to inspect and for incoming humanitarian aid only. on friday, nearly 57,000 pounds worth of u.s. aid for gazans was delivered to egypt, but even officials warned that israel's bombing camp campaign coupled with endless displacement have made the situation even more dire. on monday, humanitarian chief lynn hastings stressed that, quote the conditions required to deliver aid to the people of gaza do not exist. israel's response to that statement was to revoke her visa. meanwhile, the primary human agency that facilitate humanitarian assistance for all

of gaza is just quote, barely operating according to his head. in a letter posted to acts, he warned, quote, our staff take their children to work so they know that they are safe or can die together. i've never written such a letter, predicting the killing of my staff and collapse of the mandate i am expected to fulfill, end quote. the war's has it resulted in more than 17,000 deaths, 70% being women or children according to the gaza health ministry. nbc cannot independently verify those numbers. on thursday, secretary of state antony blinken informed israel that casualties are still unacceptably high. in a additional time between the growing rift between u.s. and its one-time allies, american officials this week began discussing postwar governance plans with the palestinian authority officials and regional arab allies. the talks come on the heels of netanyahu rejecting the return of the palestinian authority, which administers some of the occupied west bank, and used to administer gaza. but more on this, i'm joined by dr. hamas raleigh, the palestinian political and civil

society leader. she recently served as a spokesperson for the spokesperson to the middle east process. doctor, thank you for being with us again, appreciate the time that you take. >> thank, you mr. to be with. you >> let's talk about the future. there is an ongoing question about who negotiates a future and whether or not the horrible war that we have got served as a priest cursor to a more durable situation in the middle east. but we cannot really get to that because we do not have negotiating parties that are clearly established on the palestinian side or on the israeli side. netanyahu says that talking the palestinian authority is a nonstarter for him, but most experts will tell you, netanyahu is a nonstarter for purposes of long term negotiations. so where are we in terms of what happens next? >> well if you're talking internal about the future, i think it is important to understand that there's a concept, a principle and international law which is an act of self determination, and that applies to the palestinian

people. so the real issue is to recognize the palestinian people the right to -- rather than unable everybody in their future. right, now the most pressing need if we are to have a future for the whole reason is to have a future is to put an immediate end to the slaughter. we can't talk about a future when people are being traumatized, they're being killed, they're being torn to pieces, their homes, institutions, hospitals, schools, universities. everything is being destroyed. and the american ministration is saying, no no, no they need more time to carry out that objective. and their objectives are really very lethal. and then they talk about the future. the best thing to guarantee a future is to give the palestinians justice, their rights, their freedom, their dignity, and their future. but if you continue to bash the palestinians, to kill them on mass and the ethnic cleansing

and the genocide, there is no future for anybody. >> what is the -- impact sorry about that. what is the impact of that? all of the deaths that we are seeing, they hardened people, the heart of peoples hearts. and so things that look like a negotiated discussions, things that you are involved on in the 80s in the 90s, seen further away with each bomb that lands, each instance of death. >> absolutely, yes. when the talks started, there was an assumption that international law would apply, that the future would involve two states, so to speak with equal rights and so on. but now the israeli government continues with settlement expansion, with land grabs, with annexation, with, again, a very violent policy. extrajudicial executions, mass exodus and so don. so it was negotiating a bad faith. there were [inaudible] from the beginning. and the sign that [inaudible] was more honored by the [inaudible]

then by the implementation. so the palestinians learned a lesson that you can be nice, you can apply international law, you can try to please even your adversary, and you end up with more war, with more carnage, with more aggression and more loss of land and resources. so in that sense, the defeat of the peace agenda came as a result of a very hard-line israeli policy that we wanted to annex all of the west bay and to superimposed greater israel and all of historical palestine, getting a system of apartheid, and a settler colonial apartheid state that is implementing the nakba agenda of displacement and the palestinians and taking over their land and negating all of their rights. and netanyahu says this openly. of course people who want to carry out mass transfer than

the ethnic cleansing and so on. openly, he says, no palestinian state, no negotiations, no sovereignty. so what kind of make believe world are they talking about? it is very disingenuous to talk about the two state solution when you allow israel to -- the palestinian state, to expand the annexed lamb, and to continue with full impunity without any kind of intervention or accountability, and without providing any kind of protection of the law for the palestinian people. so it has become just an empty and hollow expression just to avoid taking responsibility. >> so when you talk about palestinian self-determination, what are the conditions that need to exist now? i understand that the stopping of hostilities, a cease-fire, but beyond, that what is the mechanism by which palestinians can make determinations about their self determination, about who represents them, about who sets up the negotiating table,

and what a future looks like for a palestinian state. >> precisely it is the palestinian people. how do you get palestinian representation? of course the elections, but how can you bring it traumatized people to go to elections when they don't have homes? when he families have been destroyed? when they are still in a state of shock and trauma and grief and so on. and so we need probably more of a transitional phase to be able to recoup, to be able to recapture our spirit, to be able to see that there is hope, there is life. everybody is living in the carnage and massacre. and so you cannot tell people where they're being destroyed systematically while the world is watching, now sit down and be nice guys. it is not going to happen that way. we need elections, but we need recovery, in order to have elections. and it's not just gaza. it is also the west bank that is traumatized, as you know. and disingenuously they say, oh,

it's the settlers, and so we are not going to give them visas. but bad luck because most of the settlers have american passports. they're american citizens who are stealing land and who are armed to the teeth into are killing them. it's also the israeli army that is killing palestinians in the west bank, demolishing homes, and that is aiding and abetting the settlers. and so don't tell me a handful of settlers won't give him the visa. it is a question of a whole system of land theft, expulsion, of death and murder. so in the west bank and gaza, there is a apartheid system that is intent on ethnically cleansing palestine. how do you deal with that? the mechanisms probably will have to involve international engagement and certainly the u.s. administration has disqualified itself completely. this administration has proven to be party to the conflict, has aided and abetted genocide,

has funded it, has sent weapons to israel without any kind of restraint or accountability. and then talks about a two-state solution? again, it's disingenuous. kill fewer people, they say. don't kill any people! that is what we are saying. and let's start immediately with a cessation of israel's aggression and massacres and genocide, and then let's inject some kind of justice and respect for international law, humanitarian law, which has been totally rejected. >> it sounds like those things that you outlined are a long way away, but we must discuss them in the hopes that they appear sooner than we all hope. hanan ashrawi, think you for joining. us hanan ashrawi is a former special spokesperson for the palestinian delegation to the middle east peace process. we will be right back. be right back. ...oh. febreze smells first-day fresh for 50 days.

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trump could pose an existential threat to the very foundations of our 246 year old democracy. this is not mere speculation or hyperbole. it's based on what donald trump has already done in what he has tried to do and what he openly promises that he will do in the future. that stark warning comes from the atlantic, whose staff recently published a in-depth series looking at the potential risks to our democratic institutions in the event of a second trump term. the special edition published this week served as an urgent call to the american public. one of its contributors, barton gellman, meticulously outlines how trump could leverage presidential powers for potentially authoritarian ins. notably, gellman warns that trump's camp is actively searching for loyalists among republican ranks. i'm also warned that there is an herritt risk to engaging in doomsday scenarios, however possible they, maybe they could inadvertently -- trump's narrative of invincibility. experts in authoritarianism such as ruth ben-ghiat search

the need to stress the -- psychological and political impact of how we frame these issues. in an interview with the washington post, ruth notes that authoritarians create a climate where they seem unstoppable, greeting in or of destiny around the leader, galvanizes his supporters by making his movements seem much stronger than it actually is. the manipulation of perception is everything. joining me to discuss is the aforementioned barton gellman, award-winning journalist and staff writer for the atlantic. and ruth ben-ghiat, who's a professor of history at nyu, the author of the lucid newsletter that tracks rested a mockery, and author of the book strongman, from mussolini to the present. thank you to both of you. ruth, i want to understand that quote that i read in washington quote from you more clearly, because you are one of these people who studies in warns of looming authoritarianism around the world and in america. and so what is the point that

you are making that it is possible that it could happen, but it's not inevitable? it's never inevitable, and when the lessons of the history of autocracy and resistance to it is that people can behave in ways that they can mobilize to protect democracy, like what happened recently in poland. many people thought, oh, the justice party has been there for years, it's not going to go the other way of other states, but it said they turned it around. the reason that, one of the reasons that trump and his camp are telling us what they are going to do, which some people say, why are they doing that, doesn't that work against them? they want to create a climate of inevitability and fatalism and get people to feel overwhelmed as though there is nothing that they can do to submit. this is part of the psychological warfare which is to end with information warfare and threat. these are all of the tools of autocrats, and trump knows how

to use them very well. >> so i will ask my director to put up the front cover of the atlantic that i'm talking about. i feel like you and your colleagues there are attempting to say, to talk about what ruth is talking about, that it is not inevitable, but you do have to be informed. this is a series of essays and articles in one addition that deal with very specific things, the trump administration, that the trump campaign about trump have suggested that they will do or planning to do. so how do you deal with? that party with people who say that you are all a bunch of alarmists, this is not how it is going to go down? >> yeah, you know, sometimes people say. that's why can't you write something uplifting? and the reason is that this is not enough to -- ordinary election. the stakes are much higher. the stakes are democracy. we are sleepwalking towards some kind of -- government if you're not careful, and this whole issue, conceived by jeffrey goldberg

in the atlantic, is what would come. what would come if we don't stand up and stop it. and so if you're not paying much attention, this is an ordinary kind of choice, if you're not doing all that you can to protect democracy. this issue is a call for you to step up. >> ruth, if you are paying attention, one thing you will notice, as we saw on the referendum in ohio about abortion recently, in the off-year elections that took place at the same time, in the midterm elections, it is that this concept of preserving, as voters, your personal freedoms under the constitution is motivating to people. it is animating to americans. does that translate into some hope with people who might read this, your staff, or read this atlantic issue will sit there and say, look, we can talk about other political differences later, but right now this is about democracy. i can get involved and i can

actually solve this problem. yes, absolutely, and for not informed by people like barton and many others, we will not know how serious the threat is, and we will not understand the framework for these attacks for other rights. we know from the history of social movements that if people feel that their personal situation is touched, or they know people who are being persecuted or will be, that is very galvanizing for people to get involved. so we both need the warnings, but we need them without the fatalism, because the other thing that is happening is the trump campaign is threatening people who are the truth tellers right now. that is why senator vance said that robert kagan, wrote the atlantic piece, sorry, the washington post piece about trump dictatorship being

inevitable, they want him to be investigated. this is why when trump sued cnn, i was named in the lawsuit for having written an op-ed that expose the methods of his propaganda. and what authoritarians want is for you to feel like you have to self censor so that nobody will write about this anymore. insolvency, and you make the autocrats drop easier for him. so that is another reason to keep speaking out. >> yeah, you've made this point before on the show. and barton, that is kind of interesting, because it's relevant to all of you whose names on the front of that letter. cash patel said that part outlined. he said we will go after the media. the story is not about us as reporters or the media, but it is about society, right? when you talk about, it he said, we will go criminally or civilly after the media when we're back in power. it is this concept of, we are not joking, we are going to clean things up, we will do things our way. this is not going to be about capabilities and ability, but it's going to be about loyalty.

their loyalty tests involved. this is different than what people might have thought trump one point was about. >> well it's the difference between authoritarian rhetoric and wild things you say on the campaign trail, and authoritarian power that you acquire when you [inaudible] the instruments of government and the force of state compulsion. the justice department, which was the focus of my piece, the fbi, have the power to imprison people. and not only that, but they have the power to him is raped them by requiring them to be defendants during a long investigation, subject to grand jury subpoenas and search warrants and so forth that can bankrupt in ordinary person merely by initiating an investigation. even if courts would not convict the mere act of being placed under investigation for be put in the target sites of

the justice department is a deeply unpleasant and life-changing experience that trump would like to introduce to many of his political enemies, but the politics are not media. >> i will ask people to standby, we will take a quick break. ruth ben-ghiat and part galen are staying with me. we will have a discussion. you are watching velshi. hing velshi. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. [coughing] copd isn't pretty. i'm out of breath, and often out of the picture. but this is my story. ( ♪♪ ) and with once-daily trelegy, it can still be beautiful.

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our conversation on the dangers of a potential second trump president's part and, elements staff writer at the atlantic, and ruth ben-ghiat, historian and professor of history at nyu. ar, i have a quote from david from, who also wrote an article in this particular addition of the lantic where he said that trump's rruption and brutality where were gated by his ignorance and laziness. in a second, trump will arrive with a much better understanding of the systems vulnerabilities, more willing enablers in tow, and a much more focused agenda ventilation against his adversaries and impunity for himself. and i think that that sort of captures what the issue is, here because people have said that we've got through one term of trump, not that much, why would he be more effective the second time around? and your issue addresses why he would be more effective the second time around. >> it does. the first time that we knew that his malignancy was tempered by his incompetence, and his frank disinterest in

the details of how things work, and he also hired people who were -- there were as many as you would get normally in a republican administration, but they were poor people who understood what they were doing from that experience, and they did slow walks some of his crazier ideas. right now you have large scale efforts amongst ngos like the heritage foundation to collect strictly loyal people who are able to do what he has one's done. he himself understands a little bit better with the government can do, and he knows that he can insist when someone tries to say no. the big constraint on trump is going to be i think the number of people who can get confirmed two positions of real power in this government.

he is going to need an attorney general for is willing to take his orders. it is possible that even if republicans win back the senate that they will not confirm someone like stephen miller or jeffrey clark for attorney general, for example. and if not, then trump is going to turn to acting -- and he is going to use the loopholes to the limit of the law as he did the first time, and you can appoint any attorney general who has since confirmed any position currently serving in the government. he walks in the door with the biden government, and so you would think that there would be republicans there, but there are. there are about 100 republicans incident confirmed positions around the government because there are a great many -- independent boards and

commissions alike like the national labor relations board that have already balancing requirements have to be split between democrats and republicans. een democrats an the trump people are going through that list of republicans already now in government and looking for maga people. the other route that he could take is he can appoint anyone attorney general or assistant attorney general, deputy attorney general, who is at least gs 15 on the federal case scale, which is fairly high up on the federal pay scale, and they have to be in the position for 90 days before [inaudible] confirmed position. so we can take stephen miller and appoint him for example counsel to the criminal division, which is a senior executive service career position, in 90 days later make him attorney general for most of the air, and then he can try to renew that acting turn. so the limit on trump's whether

he can get people who are both willing to carry out his agenda and have the confidence to do so. would stephen miller know how to operate the levers of the justice department? unclear. >> that is barred gellman pretending to do uplifting stuff, by the way. but i will point people to the addition, because you write about this. the vacancies act and how the mechanics work. we are, what do you do, because people do say this to me. what do you do when not only trump defenders, but regular folks say, do not take him literally. he makes jokes, i just want to be dictator for a day, which michael cohen sent an hour ago, no one's ever done that. -- don't come back to the school the next day. what do you do when people say, he is just full of -- >> well, excuse me, first i'm going to push back that not much was broken out of trump one point oh.

the reason why we are in the situation is that trump may have been incompetent and not knowing many things, but he was relentless as a propagandized or, as a self promoter, and he did a enormous amount of damage. look at the republican party. by 2020, it had no agenda an election year above supporting trump. and so the reason that all of these enablers, even after january six, sit on a debate stage and disgracefully raise their hand if they supported him, even if he is a convicted felon, is because of all the damage that was done. which was notable -- service, because we are also talking about, you know, he has control of the party. he is arranging to get control of the judiciary, but he also needs a rest for the civil service, and you have to push, many people who are not going to push back the way they did with trump one point, oh and that many people learned during that time that they were real

repercussions, and so i think that the reason that we are in this awful situation now is because of the damage done during his first term. >> right, good point. thanks to both of you. big, important discussion, we will tell you to have -- and ruth ben-ghiat. we appreciate your time. another hour of velshi starts after a quick break. start after a quick break. after a quick break. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. the subway series is taking your favorite to the next level! like the #20. the elite chicken and bacon ranch. built with rotisserie-style chicken and double cheese. i love what i'm seeing here. that's some well-coached chicken. you done, peyton? the subway series