who do you think would be first interested in that deal? >> it's hard to say. i think there are some individuals in the piece of the scheme. there are a number of defendants that have already pled guilty like scott hall, as to that county scheme. i think the others that were charged in that scheme, they may flip, but are those who had direct interactions with the actions at the top of the indictment, no. i don't think those individuals are going to necessarily help in this case against the higher ups. she will continue to work are way up the ladder. >> many thanks. that's going to do it for me on this edition of alex what reports. my friend, nancy vossoughian, about 15 feet away, she continues our coverage right

now. >> hi everyone, good to see. you -- breaking news on a senate deal on immigration. new comments from mitch mcconnell, pouring water on a possible vote this week. immigration is at the heart of a disturbing new campaign message from donald trump, a vocal and painful rhetoric from the past. elena could've come straight out of the 1940s. >> we've got a lot of work to do. they're poisoning the blood of our country, that's what they're doing, the poison mental into solutions, prisons all over the world. not just in south america, not in the country to think about, but all over the world they are coming to our country. from africa, asia, all over the world. >> after getting in that verdict for rudy giuliani's lies, could two election

workers have their sights set on trump next? one of their lawyers says, stay tuned. >> all the cards are on the table, we're not ruling anything out right now. and we are constantly looking at what we need to do next to put these folks in a place, or as close to their former selves as we can. >> we are also following the situation out of israel. the government trying to quell growing anger over the shooting of three hostages by idf troops. as new details emerge about just what's and how it happened, and we're tracking some dangerous weather barreling up the east coast right now, putting millions at risk at the holidays. a live report on that coming up as well. we want to begin. in washington, negotiations continue over an immigration deal that republicans say must be made to pass further aid for both ukraine and for israel as

well. we are learning senate minority leader, which mcconnell, sent a note to his republican colleagues saying while progress is made there will likely not be a vote this week. yesterday, the white house not with leaders and the hispanic conference after lawmakers say they became increasingly concerned about with the final bill could include. i want to bring in nbc congressional correspondent, julie tsirkin, on capitol hill to talk more about this. where are we today, it looks like mitch mcconnell threw some cold water on a deal getting made. what goes on from here? >> a couple of hours, senate negotiators are trying to gather in person, in the capital, along with secretary alejandro mayorkas. that process is still moving forward. you'll remember yesterday, we were talking about how they needed to have a framework. some kind of product that they could show the rest of their senate colleagues before they head back into town tomorrow evening. look, this is what we agreed. on here are the proposals that we've signed off on.

now, let's get ready to translate that the bill text. now they're not at that step. they are still major issues where the two sides are very far apart. i'm told those buckets include the issues like tightening parole system, also reforming the asylum system, trying to expand enhanced deportation of migrants beyond the border, going into new york city and chicago, all of these areas. democrats, especially hispanic lawmakers, especially progresses, take immensise with this. certainly the white house is listening to . at the same time, you've got to t a deal, yotao a little more toight in republicans to supporte immigration deal, and foreign aid to ukraine and israel. i want you to take a listen to what we heard from senator lindsey graham, and on the other side, house member, debbie dingell, who is the democrat, different sides on this issue, watch this. >> the bottom line here is we feel like we are being jams,

we're nowhere close to a deal,. i've never been more worried about 9/11 than i am right now, and our border has been obliterated. we are not going to give in on some band-aid fix. >> we need to do something. we need to do it in the right way. that keeps compassion, there but protect national security. let me see what comes out of, best and then i'll tell you what i'll vote. >> i'm not closing the door on this fully, we'll see what happens in this meeting tonight, but the clock is ticking. schumer, in the senate, wants to get system by the end of the year because the white house is saying how important it is for that aid unlock to ukraine, by the end of the year. you have republicans, even lindsey graham, say that he doesn't see does not much of an issue. he does believe in sending aid to ukraine, so really, the bottom line is that they are still far from getting to the point of having bill tax. it will take some time. by all accounts, it looks like

this is going to be punted into january, yasmin. >> thank, you appreciate. coming up, next hour, congressman and oversight committee member gerry connolly joins me to talk about a chance for this immigration deal in the house. then, biden impeachment inquiry and what's ahead for his committee now that it's authorized. while senators were negotiating over immigration awash in ten, the former presidents was wrapping up his rhetoric on the issue with disturbing new comments. donald trump using a very pointed and particular phrase when talking about immigrants and new hampshire today. one that has roots going all the way back to not see germany. >> you know, when they let, i think the real numbers 15 or 16 million people into this country, when they do that, we've got a lot of work to do. there are poisoning the blood of our country, that's what they've done. >> poisoning the blood of our country. i want to bring in nbc, kathryn

karinsky, and this isn't about, where the president will rinse -- and also matthew dowd. catherine, i want you to start things off for us. the biden camp fiercely denouncing trump's remarks, saying he channeled his role models as he parted hitler. how are other gop candidates running for president talking about the former president's language here? >> yes, that's exactly right, yasmin. as you mentioned, the former president was on the campaign trail in new hampshire yesterday, making these remarks in front of about 4000 people before he travels to reno, nevada, today to speak with another couple thousand. the biden administration, as you mentioned, is denouncing these comments. same that these are extremely and appropriate, as well as one of trump's rivals, governor chris christie. he was on cnn with jake tapper this morning saying that these are unacceptable. that he is douglas lane to americans that are really under stress, and this immigration

problem needs to be solved. the former president is just completely unacceptable, and he slamming people who support the former president. take a listen. >> he is discussed a. in what he is dwayne's dog whistling to americans who feel absolutely under stress, strain from the economy, and from the conflicts around the world's. he's douglas saline to blame it on people from areas that don't look like us. >> yes, as you've heard, the former new jersey governor, chris christie, denouncing those remarks just ahead of the former president who's about to take the stage here and just a couple hours. in nevada, the vibes in the ground are good for him. he's picking up a few new endorsements from state senators. the crowds are eager, and we'll have to see what he says is the second day campaigning this weekend on the trail. yasmin. >> catherine, thank you.

matthew, before we get into, it i want my control room to re-rack with the former president set. i want to play for folks so they can hear it clearly. then i want us to chat. let's play that. >> you, know when they let, i think the real numbers 15 or 16 million people into our country, when they do that, we've got a lot of work to do. they're poisoning the blood of our country. that's what they've done. >> he is essentially paraphrasing. what adolf hitler talked about in mein kampf. so many years ago. adolf hitler is responsible for killing millions and millions of jewish people. during world war ii. what is your reaction to hearing that from the former president on the campaign trail, and why is he doing that? >> well, i have, i mean, i can, i agree with chris christie, it is disgusting, or deplorable, another word we might use, and

this case. what's interesting is that you notice in his continued, remarks first, he read it off the prompter, so it wasn't just something that he said. he meant to say, it but a made appointed way of saying it, and then he mentioned the countries he was worried about, none of which european countries, and i, know one of them wasn't the immigrants coming in from slovenia, which is where his married wife melania is from, or czechoslovakia, which is x, his now passed away, ex-wife was from. so he says is appointed or marquise mccain. it's also incredibly concerning, he keeps taking it a step further. he says will be dictated for a day, everyone says, whoa. this week he goes basically, and case you missed my remarks last week, what i'm talking about, i'll quote adolf hitler in the not sees from the 1940s. he just keeps pushing and pushing the envelope. so it's clear to people.

>> i want -- to understand how similar what trump said is similar to adolf hitler. he said that all great cultures of the past parachute because the originally creative race died outs from blood poisoning. you just reiterated, matthew, all the things the former president has said on this campaign trail. yesterday evening as well, he praised kim jong-un. he quoted vladimir putin as well. however, he also says that he is the biggest supporter of israel. wahl taking from the very man who was responsible for killing millions and millions of jewish people. how does one reconcile that? how to his supporters reconcile that? or are they completely not aware of what it is he's even saying? >> well, in the other astonishing part of this is that a huge part of his base of

support is as an evangelical christian, in the course of this, that have a history of antisemitism and their ranks. it history. now, when you become pro israel, the other thing to keep in mind is that jewish americans figure this out in 2020. they voted 70% against donald trump in the 2020 election in the course of this. so it is a continued -- he doesn't, he is not aligned with jewish americans, he is aligned with what benjamin netanyahu is doing. in many ways, this can be described as a movement towards dictatorship in israel over the course of this. it's not as if he wants to protect jewish americans. the only thing he wants to do, which is parrot talking points of evangelical christians, which is protect the holy land. israel happens to encompass this at this moment in time. his divergence of thought, obviously, you pointed out it is clear. again, i'll point out to americans, and anyone that republicans keep softening his remarks, oh, he was trying to

be funny, or this, he keeps telling us, and he keeps taking it one and one step further. the next thing we'll see, he will actually hold up mein kampf, say this is my roadmap for 2024, 2025. at some point, they have to get a clear signal that this is exactly what he intends. >> okay, if you are the biden camp, and decidedly it seems is that the former president is going to be the nominee for the republican party, in 2024, do you seize on this? is this a moment that you must seize on and run what considering how scary it could be if a man like this is reelected as the president of the united states, saying that immigrants poise in the blood of our country. taken directly from a fascist dictator like adolf hitler. >> yasmin, you and i have had this conversation. i absolutely think they need to seize on this, and leave behind all the stuff that they've been trying to do the last six

months. they need to seize on this and broader net. basically make this a part of the arguments that we have a choice in this election. that the choice is a continued democracy, or movement to a top russian dictatorship, alla what happened and not to germany in 1932. they were democracy before 1932. after 1932, it off hitler's election, a valid election, they were no longer a democracy. they have to make this entire campaign about that choice, and what it means for americans, and what it means to, once we lose our democracy, what does it mean if they lose the ability to hold leaders responsible and accountable for their actions, and for the issues they want discuss. that should be the pivot upon which the biden campaign makes the argument for this entire election. >> matthew, i'm going to ask you to stick with me. i'm going to talk to a little later in the hour. i think another big issue that will be facing a 2024's reproductive rights. let's taking place in texas, front and center for many americans right now. we'll talk more about that.

in just a moment. coming up in 60 seconds, as the fallout continues over the mistaken killings of three israeli hostages by idf soldiers, the pressure is going for the israeli government to make another deal to release remaining hostages in a lab report from israel, coming up next. coming u next (husband) ♪ hey there family! while you're shopping, ♪ ♪ get me a 5g phone, it's on my list. ♪ (wife) instead of doing all of this a better plan is to switch to verizon. (avo) this holiday turn any samsung phone, in any condition, into a galaxy s23+ on us. and now add netflix and max to your plan for just $10 a month. only on verizon. >> all right, growing calls for

israel to nser another pause in thefighting to get more hostages home. netanyahu says the door is not close to negotiations as israel continues its air ground offensive in gaza. the news is coming as the is really military admitted it mistakenly killed three hostages held by hamas who were shirtless, unarmed, and waving a makeshift white flag. thousands of people have been rallying over the weekend in tel aviv calling for the release of the hostages, even spending the night camped outside of israel's defense ministry. one american citizen is

believed to be held captive. take a listen. >> tell me why you decided to come out here to march tonight. >> the israeli families believe that the israeli government needs to put it on the table today. >> joining me now is gorani from tel aviv. one thing we want tot on here, hala, is the fallout from these three hostages. what more we learn today? is there any indication they may resume negotiations over more hostages being released from gaza? >> look, the israeli prime minister has never been under more pressure. the families of the hostages, their loved ones are saying, you have to prioritize the lives of the hostages over the military aims, so much so that the israeli prime minister has kind of had to hint at the restarting of negotiations with hamas via qatar. qatar is the gulf country maintaining political relations

with hamas, the political leaders, some of whom are based in doha. at this point, the israeli prime minister is having to do something. he has said that we have a serious of criticisms of qatar but right now we are trying to complete the recovery of our hostages. you showed some of the anger there. you are showing it on the screen now. ordinary citizens of the country, they have camped out in large numbers in hostage square. some of the family members have even spent the night. the israeli military mistakenly killed three hostages inside the gaza strip outside the ministry of defense. they will not move until they do something to get family members and loved ones out in a way that makes them the priority and not the aim of eliminating hamas. that is something you can take care of later on the line. as you and i have both

discussed over the last few weeks, to emphasize how much suffering has taken place inside the gaza strip beyond the hostage situation, ordinary civilians, we are talking about almost 19,000 deaths, most of them civilians inside the gaza strip. 90% of the over 2 million people who live there are homeless or displaced. the question is going to be after. where do all of these people go in the fight against? there are so many questions left answer and so much pressure on the political leadership of this country. >> we're going to be talking later on in the show with former ambassador dennis ross about that who had a fantastic op-ed in the new york times with some fantastic answers. when you talk about that humanitarian crisis which has happened, it's a drop in the bucket, the first aid convoy. what does this mean for them?

how much is coming in? how many people can it feed? can it get water? what are the resources that are available for them? >> to put this into context, about 500 trucks would enter gaza with a, including fuel. after the territory was sealed after the hamas attacks of october 7th, there was aid going through the rafah border on the egyptian side. after the visit of the national security adviser jake sullivan, there was an announcement made by the israeligovernment that the crossing on the israeli t th intersection of egt and israel would open not just for inspections but for vehilar traffic to go through. of vehicles, the number ofmb trucks into the gaza strip loaded with aid to 200 a day, so from 100 through rafah, i

should say, to another 100 added through the other border crossing. that is still not enough, according to a groups, and certainly not at the levels that we saw before october 7th. when we hear from aid groups about the situation on the ground, a lot more is going to be needed going forward, yasmin. >> hala gorani, thank you. i want to talk to you again in the next hour. still ahead, could trump have another legal case on his hands? a look at the potential for a defamation case by the two election workers who just won their case against rudy giuliani. a live report on the storm system making its way up the east coast intensifying as it brings heavy rain, wind, flooding from a florida all the way to maine. amidst the outrage over kate cox having to leave texas to obtain an abortion, a personal story about how often these cases happen. how often thes cases happen cases happen jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan.

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making its way up the east coast after slamming much of florida. it's bringing heavy rain, gusty winds, and coastal flooding. the impact could be felt all the way to maine with 60 americans under flood alerts. joining me now is george soliz in philadelphia for us. george, if you will, walk us through what you are seeing there and the expectation of what is to come. >> yeah, no doubt that we are going to have a messy commute this monday here in philadelphia. the rain is just starting. the real story is what is happening along the carolinas. i believe you have images of charleston. the coastal flooding is starting to take effect in that region. that is expected to sort of barrel up here through the mid-atlantic. a lot of people are beginning that holiday travel period. millions of people are going to try to get to the airport tomorrow.

you have the domino effect leading into another cancellation. overall, the big picture here is not good. we have seen some of that flooding and even power outages where the storm system really wreaked havoc yesterday. the flooding will be localized. we will see flash flooding in some of these regions which generally see a lot of those rising waters. we do have this rain beginning to fall. beyond that, the wind is another factor. you have a lot of christmas decorations, a lot of holiday lights around. that could be a concern. a lot of people are taking it seriously. 60 million people are in the bull's-eye from georgia to maine. you have erosion concerns. this is a nasty storm making its way through the east coast, so a lot of people are keeping close watch on this system. along the northeast, we know that some warnings were already issued. people are advised to stay home

if they don't have to travel tomorrow. we are watching the system closely as some of the gusts of wind could pick up to about 45 to 60 miles per hour. you also have inches of rain somewhere between the neighborhood of three or four or five inches in some areas. certainly a lot of considerations to be made. if you're going to travel tomorrow and then begin the holiday travel period, keep an eye on the apps and on your airlines to see if the delays and cancellations will be starting up. here in philadelphia, we are starting to see that rain and we will see how it continues into the overnight. >> good timing. thank you so much, appreciate it. coming up, the election workers who won their case against rudy giuliani this week say others should be held accountable. could that include former president donald trump? former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade joins me with how the women may be able to, quote, catch every penny they can out of giuliani. coming up next. of giuliani. coming up next coming up next

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rudy giuliani says he intends to appeal the 148 billion dollar decision against him in the georgia defamation case, lawyers for ruby freeman and shaye moss say they may not be done going after those who defamed the former election workers. >> can we expect to see miss freeman and miss moss seek justice against donald trump? >> we are constantly reviewing this situation.

it is ever evolving. the new statements are still being made every day about ruby and shaye. all the cards are on the table. we're not ruling anything out right now. >> anyone else who wants to take this as an opportunity to try to go out until these same lies about these heroes, they will hear from us. >> joining me now, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade and nbc news justice reporter justin reilly, the author of sedition hunters. let me start with you on this. give me a sense of what is next in this case as far as expected appeals here and calls for a new trial. >> yeah, the appeals process is going to be underway. i think it's important to recognize how we got into this situation in the first place with rudy giuliani not cooperating for this process throughout. he was blowing off these discovery requests. he didn't show up to a hearing

last week. it was to be held ahead of the trial. he showed up late on monday so he has shown this disrespect toward the core process throughout. i think this appeal process is going to get kicked off now and is obviously going to be trying to find any way he can to push off what his own attorneys have described as the civil equivalent of the death penalty here. it's a long road ahead of him, especially given how he handled this case in the past. it sort of is going to have to work its way through the appeals process and we will figure out where that goes. >> ryan riley, thank you. barbara, let's get into this. you sa ofriday to lawrence o'donnell, quote, -- not dischargeable in bankruptcy. it may be that ruby freeman and shaye moss are able to chase rudy giuliani to his grave to catch every penny they can out of his pockets. how much of this almost $150

million are they actually going to see? >> it is a really difficult question to answer. one of the things that rudy giuliani refused to do was to disclose his assets. that was part of the discovery violation that he made here. there is reporting that he gets money for his podcast, that he has this 6 million dollar apartment, and he refused to allow them to see how much he had and where it is. with this judgment, what they can do is give orders from the clerk's office to garnish anyway just by sending them to whoever is sending them to him and put leans on his properties. through those methods, they can go after his assets and recover them up to the amount of judgment. >> i want to play for you some sounds if we can of ruby freeman after the verdict on friday. >> today is not the end of the road. we still have work to do. rudy giuliani was not the only one who spread lies about us. others must be held accountable. >> others must be held

accountable too. you heard what their attorney said that i played a little bit earlier. is there a possibility? do they have a case here to go against the former president as well? >> absolutely. there may be other people as well who also repeated these claims may be less notoriously than donald trump, but trump was out there front and center. his words, at least according to what we heard from ruby freeman at the january six committee hearings, they directly went after her and cost her so much pain and suffering. there would have to be a separate trial. intent is a very important part of defamation. you would have to show that donald trump knew what he was saying was false. it seems that it would be just as easy to prove in his case as it was in the case of rudy giuliani. it will be a separate trial, but it seems like the issues are the same and it seems like they could seek additional damages for him as well. >> i quickly want to talk about trump's new york civil fraud

trial as well. closing arguments resume in early january, january 11th, i believe. the verdict would be issued sometime late january, early february. what are your expectations coming out of this, the opinion to be written by judge engoron? what do you think the numbers are going to be? where do you think it will go? >> yeah, you know, i don't think we should assume that there is an automatic finding in favor of the attorney general here even though the judge found summary judgment on the first count. it did not require proof of intent to defraud. simply looking at the numbers and finding that they were exaggerated by absurd margins, that is what he found. this round, he has to find intent to defraud. it seems like there is plenty of evidence of that. there is also some evidence that the trump team put on to the contrary. in terms of the amount, the amount that laetitia james is asking for is $250 million. that is in disgorgement of profits. there is evidence in her case

that the amount of the fraud was 1.1 billion dollars. that's the amount by which the assets were overstated. she estimates that the profit from all of that was $250 million. that is a numbers crunching exercise -- >>. we will see. the prosecution typically does not ask for more and it can prove. if liabilities found, i imagine the amount would be somewhere in the neighborhood. >> barbara mcquade, thanks so much. way to end a segment. coming up next, everybody, how a heartbreaking experience with a non viable pregnancy changed my next guests views on the role government should play in reproductive health. matthew dowd is back with me on why kate cox's story in texas is in no way a rarity. n texa is in no way a rarity. is in no way a rarity. woman: who's that, who is that? cole: this is my puppy! woman: cancer.

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someone who can help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪ welcome back. abortion rights activists are looking to go the distance after winning big in the midterms. supporters in nine states are bracing to get the issue on the ballot in 2024. it is all a part of a growing effort to put abortion rights back in the hands of voters. in texas, abortion restrictions have reached a new level of extremism exemplified by the case of kate cox, forced to flee the state for an abortion to protect her health d future fertility after being denied an exception under the highly restrictive texas law. as msnbc political contributor

matthew dowd puts it, the state has, quote, long been in a welcome place for women with non viable pregnancies. matthew dowd is back with me to talk more about this. it's not something you normally talk about. it's fascinating to read your piece on this. it's incredibly personal and brave to sharet. i am thankful to you and your than wife for allowing you to share this with e world. you write this -- the story of kate cox having to leave texas to end a novile pregnancy which threatened her chance of having more children may be processed by some people as a rare, even unique occurrence. i can attest both as a former expecting dad and as a texan that it is not a rarity. something similar happened to you and your than wife. walk us through it. >> sure. thank you. i appreciate the, yasmin. shout out to my ex-wife's daughter, my ex wife's mother and my daughter nikki who

agreed to have this spoken about because of her concern and my concern about what people are facing. we faced this a little over 25 years ago. the restrictions were not as bad as they are now. the restrictions were in place. as i wrote in the piece, i grew up in a conservative roman catholic family. you could probably have described me as antiabortion. i wasn't for banning it in this, but we were faced with this situation because of the restrictions in place in texas. we had discovered at a doctor's visit, at an ultrasound that our baby had a growing tumor and the baby was going to die. we were left with only three options in that moment. we could not have an abortion at that point in time because nikki's life, they determined, was not in danger, though she was sick. they gave us three options. the first option was there was experimental surgery, in utero surgery in california.

there was only a 5% chance of survival for the baby. it was risky to nicky at that point in time. we decided that we were not going to do that. i did not want to lose a son, john, the baby, and a wife at the present time. the second option was to travel anonymously to kansas which allowed abortion in that circumstance. we debated it. we ask the doctor, is the baby in pain? because of the anonymous nature of it, we felt like they were treating us like criminals. we decided not to do. it's the only option left, yasmin, where she had to allow the baby to die and then she had to give birth to a dead baby. you can imagine the emotional wrenching part of that and the waiting process of that because of the law in texas. that was the only option she had left. she had been sick over the course of that.

she ultimately gave birth to a stillborn child. we buried the child. it completely changed my view of where the state and where legislators should be involved. i always thought there were circumstances where we should have restrictions and all of that. what it told me is all of the debate is not in the real world. those of us, especially women, live in the real world. a legislator cannot determine in a circumstance like that or anyone that the people who should be deciding that are the mother and the doctor in the course of that. that is where legislation driven by peoples religious beliefs meets the real world. in the real world, those things are causing immense trauma and so many different ways. >> i want to pick up on that immense trauma part. i've had two children. i know what it's like to be asked about my pregnancy when you are further along in your pregnancy. oh my gosh, when are you do?

what are you having? is it a girl or a boy? what are you going to name it? what was it like for the both of you in that time as you knew this baby was inside your wife nikki but you also knew this baby would not survive? >> she was obviously, as you said, at the point when she was showing. we had already begun to decorate his room in the course of this. we had already been given gifts by people in the course of this. you have this process where you walk into the doctor's office on a visit that you think, oh, it's going to be exciting. we're going to see the ultrasound. we're going to see what the baby looks like. we're going to see all of that. we're going to see its heartbeat. that dramatically turns to a different case. that was bad enough that it turned to that. the worst part was, as i wrote, to come when we were basically told, these are your options. it was outrageously cruel, what

we both thought, and then in the aftermath of that, what do you do? you don't have a child. you went through these circumstances. you have to tell all of these people who were excited about this as they ask you about it, how was the visit? you have to go through this whole thing. reading and watching the stuff about kate cox, for nikki and me, it brought all of this back up. >> i can imagine. >> the circumstances were different but the emotional trauma and what was happening was very much the same. >> i am sure your than wife could actually resonate with what kate cox was going through and is continuing to go through even today. you say it's outrageous, but texas women like kate cox face even more restrictions that nikki and i did more than 25 years ago. quite frankly, it seems like we are going in the wrong direction. >> especially in texas, we have

absolutely gone in the wrong direction. that point at which someone could make that decision has now been moved all the way up to six weeks in the course of this. it has been much more intrusive in the decisions that the legislators are involved in. it's much further along, much earlier in the process in the course of this. as you know, some states have gone in the opposite direction as they have watched these states do this like texas and michigan and california and other states by preserving that fundamental freedom in the course of this. texas is one of the worst. it was bad enough when we had it two decades and a half ago. it's much worse for people like kate cox. i would just ask people, i am glad we are talking about this, to just let go of their belief system for a moment and actually understand how these policies impact people in day today and in the real world. you don't want to have policies

which cause more cruelty and more trauma than you did before. i will just ask people to pause and consider this. you can have your religious belief as i do. you can have your religious belief. left the people sitting in the room going through this make the decision. >> matthew dowd, thank you for sharing the story. we appreciate it. we will be right back, everybody. ate it we will be right back, everybody.

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>> yeah, yasmin. there are a range of options that are suggested for people to try to avoid having a package taken off of their doorstep. at minimum, this could be a giant nuisance when you are trying to make sure you have something under the christmas tree just days from now. all of this is with christmas just over a week away and lots of people are trying to make sure their packages are getting to them on time. with christmas right around the corner, look out for a real life grinch. >> let's steal christmas! >> right on your doorstep. they are known as porch pirates, thieves caught on camera stealing packages again and again. >> oh my goodness! >> according to security dot org, nearly one in five americans has had a package stolen in the last three months. the costs can add up. >> in the past year, we estimate 119 million packages

have gotten lost. that totals to about six billion dollars as a conservative estimate of a loss. >> right now, so many of us are sending and receiving holiday gifts. >> the feeling of it, you feel a violated. >> austin miller says over the past few years thieves have snatched a dozen packages from his doorstep in downtown phoenix. he captured this incident on camera just this month. miller says that was more than $600 worth of clothing, a christmas gift from his parents. >> are you more worried right now because it is that time of year when so many packages are being sent around? >> definitely on high alert right now. i've had coworkers and friends and other people that live downtown kind of keeping an eye out for these people. it definitely feels like a breach of our trust and safety of a place we call home. >> left can also be dangerous. in chicago, surveillance video captured thieves on camera as they drove into a store

grabbing arm loads of merchandise. police say an amazon driver was robbed at gunpoint in connecticut. in florida, one thief allegedly stole the delivery truck itself. >> most of the major carriers have had a lot of changes in their practices in the past several years as this has become a bigger problem. you are seeing them covering their tracks a lot more. they are documenting what they are doing. they are taking photographs of packages that they have delivered. they are communicating and tracking their progress along their routes. >> shipping companies like u.p.s. offer delivery alerts and the option to have packages dropped off somewhere specific left behind their garage. >> it also just adds a whole another step of, you should be able to get something delivered to your home and feel like it's not going to get taken away from you, but i guess this is the world we live in. >> if you want extra layers of protection, consider giving delivery services access inside your home, requiring a signature at drop off, and

purchasing a security camera. extra planning so you can keep those grinches away over the holidays. >> it was may. i stole your christmas. >> there are some silver linings. according to security dot org, most of the time, you should be able to get your package back and another package delivered to you, but you might be asked for proof of a theft or a police report. even if you get another package, yasmin, we are talking about something which costs money. a 2021 study found that on average first delivery failures in the u.s. cost around $17. there are questions about how that money might wind up in prices that we are paying down the line. yasmin? >> it's also so disappointing. i've had packages stolen over the last few years from our building lobby. it's always so disappointing to be waiting for something, the excitedly wanting to give it to the person that you love, and then it's not there and you have to go through the ar