administration. we are grateful for the technical support. we appreciate that. we appreciate the work authorization, expediting work authorization. again, the federal support that came with refugees from ukraine, the question is, why are we not providing that same type of support for migrants to deal with this international crisis? >> got it. it's an important question. mayor johnson, thank you for joining us. that does it for me. alex witt picks things up right now. a very good day to all of you. i'm alex witt in for andrea mitchell live here at msnbc world headquarters in new york city. overseas, israel now mourning the death of an american citizen who was taken hostage by hamas. the 70-year-old, mother of four and grandmother of seven, apparently died on october 7th, although that wasn't made public until just a few hours ago. word of her death coming six

days after that of her husband, also killed in the massacre. colorado's republican party jumping into the legal fight to keep donald trump on the presidential ballot. the latest on the supreme court appeal that has the u.s. heading for a legal showdown unlike any we have ever seen. it was a year that saw trump surge, biden slip, and the rest of the republican candidates essentially spinning their wheels. 2023 may be nothing compared to what's in store for american politics in 2024. steve kornacki takes a lok back and ahead coming up. ♪♪ we will start overseas with the growing violence inside and outside of gaza. an increasing fear the war could spread. inside central gaza, israel's military offensive is systematically destroying refugee camps for a third straight day as they hunt for hamas terrorists. more than 60,000 people who had

been sheltering in those camps now forced to flee south. some on foot, somen donkey carts. israel is warning it could step up attacks i lebanon, home t hezbollah militants w have been firing rockets into the northern part of that country. aew report from the united nations says violence in the west bank has gotten worse. citing the deaths of 300 palestinians, including nearly 80 children. this at the hands of israeli forces and local settlers. i want to bring in jay gray joining us from east jerusalem, ambassador pinkus, and peter baker, "new york times" chief white house correspondent and an msnbc political analyst. welcome to you all. jay, you first. before we get to the latest in gaza, start with the news we have gotten about the death of one of those hostages, israeli american judy winestein. >> reporter: 70 years old. her family had said from the start they knew she had been

wounded during the attack on october 7th, along with her husband, who was 73. we did learn a week ago he had passed away and learning today that she has died. what we don't know in all of this is whether they died during the attacks on their kibbutz and their bodies were takn into gaza or whether they died once in captivity. what we know is that their bodies remain in gaza right now. the couple had lived on the kibbutz for some time, were highly active in the community, very much enjoyed being outdoors. as you talked about, they had a family of four and were grandparents to seven. they also were very, very active in a peace movement. their family says trying to bring arabs and israelis

together. unfortunately, both dying as a result of captivity in those attacks. this comes on the same day when we are hearing from one of the released hostages. a 21-year-old french israeli who was wounded during the october 7th attack on the music festival and was part of a hamas video before she was released during the pause in fighting, has spoken for the first time since that release. she was held for 54 days. she told israeli media today -- i want to make sure i get this right. she says -- these are her words. what i went through was like the holocaust. she goes on to say, it's important to relay the truth about the nature of the people who live in gaza. continuing, they are all complicit. it's like one big hamas family. strong words and the first we heard from her since her release. the fighting, of course, continues in gaza right now. the ground attack focused really

on central gaza, as you talked about. some of the areas where these ground troops are working is refugee camps. making it difficult for so many in those areas to flee, not only the inability to get out and get anywhere, but there's also continuing to be a communication blackout. no cell service, no internet. that's something that's adding to the chaos as well as the panic on the ground. it's a densely populated urban area. alex, it's pretty intense fighting, according to those who are relaying messages from the ground there. >> that's the word we are getting. i want to make note, judy, in addition to her role as a matriarch, she was a poet, a entrepreneur and a woman of many accomplishments. let me move on to you, ambassador. israel tried to evacuate people out of the battle zones. the fact is, areas not being attacked, they are getting smaller and smaller. people are streets. the weather will get worse.

even if they avoid the bombings, how are they supposed to survive? >> hi, alex. i wish i had an answer for you. you are making a point that is incontrovertible. last week, it was "the new york times" investigative report about 2,000-pound bombs being dropped on areas in which israel actually asked the palestinians to relocate to. look, this is a very small strip of land, the gaza strip. it's heavily populated. it's probably the densest place on earth per square mile, per square kilometer, it doesn't matter here. what you see here is an intractable situation, because even if israel resorts to a lower intensity conflict, using

less fire power, more intelligent-driven, more precision, you are still bound to hit civilians because of the density and because everyone is concentrated in the south. i wish i had a better answer for you. i just don't. >> peter, let me ask you about secretary of state blinken who met with the israeli military of strategic affairs earlier this week. part of the conversation was about trying to improve the humanitarian situation outside of the military strikes. unicef is saying water and sanitation systems are failing and that every child under the age of 5 is now at risk of preventable death. take a listen to this. >> we work all around the world. we have been doing this more than 70 years. we know how to reach children and families in the most desperate of circumstances. bombs are falling and the situation in gaza is almost

impossible. we are getting in. we are providing critical supplies. but as you say, every single child under the age of 5, that's hard to wrap your head around. i've been doing this more than ten years. for me, the numbers, the proportions we are talking about, knock you sideways. >> i'm curious, peter, what is the u.s. doing to try to help the humanitarian situation on the humanitarian front? is the administration able to do anything, or must it rely on ngos? >> look, they rely on ngos. but they are reaching a point with the netanyahu government. president biden has been very, very strong in supporting israel's right to defend itself and retaliate for the october 7th terrorist attack that killed so many. at the same time, you are seeing with secretary blinken and others a stronger push to pivot this war away from the high

intensity, high bombing kind of destruction that you are seeing there on the ground toward a more targeted approach. that has risks of its own. it's not risk free by any stretch. the administration would like israel to focus more on seeking out hamas leadership, working on the tunnels, and doing more to prevent the humanitarian crisis that is obviously gripping that strip. there is a disconnect to some extent between washington and jerusalem on this. you have heard prime minister netanyahu say this week, the war is not near over. in fact, it's going to continue to be intense at this point. he is not willing to go where the administration wants him to go yet. that doesn't mean they won't get there. there's a big divergence in terms of the timing and the approach at this point between the two governments. >> to your point and that of the ambassador, the u.s. is strongly

saying that israel should shy away from using dumb bombs and usee precisionmbs. let's move to the increa you, jay.in the west bank with in a press r describing the latest ef u.n. says, quote, in the weeks following october 7th, there also a sharp rise in settler attacks, with six per day, such homes and vehicles and many incidents. settlers were accpanied by israeli security or were earing isf forces and carrying army rifles. the u.n. office doc settlers attacking inians, harvesting their olives, including with firearms and forcing them to leave land, stealing the harvest and poisoning or vandalizing their olive trees, depriving many of a source of income. can you help put in perspective what's happening there?

>> reporter: yeah. we were in the west bank in ram. speaking with people there, there's an uneasy tension, a fear for the violence that has escalated. there's always been a problem between the settlers, police and idf and the palestinians there. it has grown exponentially. as you run into people, some children, they all have a story about some type of violence that has occurred since the october 7th attacks. they have seen homes burned. they have seen entire orchards burned or destroyed as a result of settlers coming in and taking over their homes, taking over their land. it's something that's a growing issue. the u.n. has talked about it and is beginning to talk about it more. right now, if i'm being very frank, alex, a lot of those in the west bank don't have hope

that things are going to get any better any time soon. that's very disheartening for them. >> here is the question for the ambassador. what can or should israel be doing to stop these attacks in the west bank? is there a will to do so in the netanyahu government? >> no, absolutely not. the netanyahu government, alex, is a right wing extremist government that has looked the other way or, in fact, encouraged and certainly placated the settlers. they are being reckless in how they are dealing with the west bank. they know that the west bank is just as explosive as gaza is. with support for hamas increasing -- if you look at the palestinians' polls, you see that the support for hamas is -- it eclipses that of the palestinian authority. and yet, israel is essentially doing nothing. not only that, alex, but every

time the u.s., be it secretary of state blinken on vice president kamala harris two weeks ago in dubai, articulating a vision of post-war gaza, imperfect but a vision, in which the palestinian authority extends governance to the gaza strip, the only thing that mr. netanyahu is saying, or his government is saying, is absolutely not. if not the palestinian authority and not curtail extremist activities in the west bank, what then? i gotta tell you one more thing, alex, if i may. >> quickly. >> peter baker is by far more a better diplomat than i am, apparently, by saying there's a divergence between israel and the u.s. this is going into what seems to be a confrontation. i think -- i may be wrong, but i

think this is a deliberate policy on mr. netanyahu's part. >> okay, future diplomat, peter. you want to respond to that? i'm guessing part of the experience in russia may have helped you learn how to dance very carefully with your verbiage. >> the administration is trying to be careful. they are sending dual messages. one message is they stand by israel. they do not want to have people -- they don't approve of the approach that israel is taking at this moment. that's a complicated dance of its own, complicated diplomacy of its own. there's a divergence. what he is saying is that netanyahu may view it as politically advantageous to him to his right wing coalition to say, i'm standing up to biden, particularly on the day after question. i'm the one guy who will stop there from being a two-state solution which you don't approve of. there's a benefit to him to

being seen in opposition to biden, at least on that question. >> okay, ambassador, jay, thank you. peter, i have a few more questions for you later in the show. ballot battles. colorado republicans trying to take their fight on behalf of former president trump to the supreme court. the new developments when we are back in 60 short seconds. shorts so we're back with tide, and the clothes are clean again. do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean. it's got to be tide. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what ed. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

while i am a paid actor, and this is not a real company, there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. upwork is half the cost of our old recruiter and they have top-tier talent and everything from pr to project management because this is how we work now. new overnight, colorado's republican party has asked the u.s. supreme court to keep former president donald trump on the state's 2024 primary ballot. the appeal comes after the state supreme court ruled trump is ineligible under the insurrection clause. this is one of several challenges trump is facing over ballot eligibility across multiple states. vaughn hillyard is following this. as i welcome you, what happens next? >> reporter: we wait for the

supreme court to see whether they take up the appeal. it's hard to fathom at this point in time with so many states facing litigation in so many courts, and in the case of colorado, one court disqualifying donald trump from the ballot, the u.s. supreme court sidestepping this. by the colorado republican party choosing to appeal this, they party to the lawsuit, they does put donald trump back on the ballot pending a decision by the u.s. supreme court to take this up or not. for the attorney representing the colorado republican party, of course, you will recall he was a former attory to donald trump himself. he writesn the filingthat, number one, it's a first amendment right of a political party to choose who they put on the ballot. number two, that it is not up to secretaries of state or state courts to determine whether somebody is disqualified under section 3 of the 14th amendment, the disqualification clause, but it's up to the congress to make

that determination. there's much to be debated if the u.s. supreme court does, in fact, take this up here. we have heard from donald trump, we have heard from his lawyers who have expressed concern that if this is not taken up immediately, that come january, february, multiple states will have voted in primaries or caucuses and the potential of nullifying republican voters if the u.s. supreme court were to disqualify him would raise the stakes of what's on the line if the u.s. supreme court does hear oral arguments. >> we will see if they do. thank you so much, vaughn hillyard. a caravan of migrants is headed to the southern border seek being asylum as u.s./mexico talks put a spotlight on a growing number of crossings. mexico says the caravan has shrunk to around 1,500 people. it's down from an initial estimate of 8,000. joining me with the latest, morgan chesky and laura viagrand.

welcome to you both. lauren, you first. why has the size of the migrant caravan dropped so dramatically? where have 6,500 migrants gone? >> yeah, alex, you know, these migrant caravans, once they enter mexico, do tend to disperse. make no mistake, everyone who was part of the it is headed to the u.s. border. you see sometimes a mix of enforcement on the part of mexican agencies and officials as well as people choosing their own paths. different demographics of migrants may travel through mexico in different ways. we know that we are in the middle of a historic wave of migration. >> absolutely we are. i'm curious, morgan, the meeting yesterday between second blinken and mayorkas and the head of dhs and the president of mexico, what does that mean for border policy moving forward?

>> reporter: alex, in the meantime, in the short-term, it means both sides have called this meeting productive. they pledged to both take part in migrant mitigation going forward in hopes of reducing some of the numbers that have come across in record numbers. most notably, last week when more than 12,000 migrants illegally crossed, setting an all-time record. we do know that the u.s. committed to more repatriations over the next year. they credited mexico with helping handle that. mexico said they would continue to crack down more on smugglers. of course they are essentially one of the key players that help so many of the migrants -- whether by themselves or families -- to the border at various locations. mexico wanting to crack down on the smugglers more. also, they want to offer potential incentives to migrants

to stay in mexico. one example that was given was offering work visas. mexico's president making one thing very clear, alex, and that is long-term, he doesn't believe the solution is building more barriers or adding barbed wire. he says it will take both countries to re-establish relationships with the central american countries where so many of the migrants are coming from to create a sustainable long-term impact going forward. >> absolutely. that does make sense. lauren, to you, you reported there's a massive backlog of immigration courses in court. how long a wait is it to get a court date? i know it's in terms of years. does anyone get one in a matter of months? where does that leave migrants who reach the u.s.? >> yeah, the immigration court backlog is something that immigrant advocates and those who would like to see a reduction of immigration, both agree that the backlog is

entirely too large. you have more than 3 million cases pending. i met a migrant family last week in el paso, texas, who received a notice to appear in an immigration court in florida in 2027. immigrant advocates say, those with legitimate asylum claims, you know, are not getting access to make their claim fast enough. those who want to see -- who believe migrants may be making illegitimate claims say they are getting a pass to stay in the united states for years while awaiting a court date. the backlog has grown enormously over the past year by a million cases. many of the migrants who are being received and processed by border patrol are receiving the notices to appear. the biden administration hired hundreds more immigration judges. but it hasn't been enough to keep up with the pace of arrivals. >> yeah, let alone enforcing the notices to appear. thank you very much, morgan and

lauren. appreciate it. still ahead, the winter weather causing holiday travel headaches for millions trying to get home for their post-christmas plans. we will get a check on the forecast next. it's amazing. it's so good. it makes it look like i have magical powers. magic eraser and sheets make cleaning look easy.

(dad) it's our phone bill... it makes it look like i have magical powers. we pay for things that we don't need. (mom) that's a bit dramatic. (dad) we must tighten our belts! (mom) a better plan to save is verizon! (vo) that's right! plans start at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years. only on verizon. new emergen-c crystals pop and fizz when you throw them back. and who doesn't love a good throwback? [sfx: video game] emergen-c crystals. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me.

order in the subway app today. (dad) it's our phone bill... kinda like me. we pay for things that we don't need. (mom) that's a bit dramatic. (dad) we must tighten our belts! (mom) a better plan to save is verizon! (vo) that's right! plans start at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years. only on verizon.

the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network.

fingers crossed we may see the tail end of this week's winter storms. as of now, it means travel misery across the country with 10 million people under flood

alerts. rain is bogging down traffic on roads nationwide on one of the busiest days for drivers. in south dakota, it's dangerous. the ground is covered in snow. the faa warns of flight disruptions for at least ten airports as the backlog of travelers impacted earlier in the week are all hoping for better luck today. we have a wet highway in florida. i'm joined by michelle grossman. marissa, yesterday, there were hundreds of cancellations in florida. there was a full ground stop at one airport. what's the situation there and on the roads today? >> reporter: you can imagine, this weather isn't helping anything, especially on a day that's supposed to be one of the busiest travel days when it comes to the roads. we know that air travel is sill up in ways that we haven't seen since before the pandemic. we know miami international is an example of one that set

record numbers this weekend. they are also seeing delays. when we look at what's called the misery map, which shows us who is leading when it comes to current delays or cancellations, miami is leading the board. we know south florida is leading the board. we had a chance to speak to one of the miserable travelers trying to make it on the plane today. listen to what they had to say. >> i am tired. it's cold. man, uncomfortable. optimistic still. but everybody, unfortunately, doesn't have that much wiggle room. it's not looking the best at all. >> reporter: tired and cold, just about sums up what the atmosphere feels like here in south florida right now. there's a lot of people who i'm sure feel her pain. when we talk about travelers, it's not just, of course, air travel. the majority of travelers take to the roads. 115 million of them expected to

do that across the holiday weekend and the holiday period in general. we heard from aaa. they expect a record number of florida drivers throughout the holiday season. my best advice is if you are taking to the roads, which is supposed to be one of the busiest days from 2:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m., leave before or after that. if you have to travel during that time, get an extra strong coffee, pack a nice podcast. if the weather is any indication, you are not only going to share the road with a lot of drivers who would have been there and maybe people commuting to and from work, you are also going to deal with nasty weather if you are in parts like south florida, the east coast like we are right now. >> you made me really grateful for sitting in a studio and being at work today. i want to thank you for that, marissa. how about you, michelle? when are the storm conditions going to clear up? >> we will deal with them today. we are looking at a few spots that look like where marissa is. we have a dreary december in many spots.

not heavy rain, but heavy at times. we have showers in place, it's misty. low clouds and fog. that's slowing us down on the roads. it's slowing us down in the air as well. today, see the green. that's where the rain is falling. we are looking at rain in new england, most of the heavy rain has moved out of the northeast. flood alerts have been dropped. heavy rain throughout florida, just like we saw with marissa. some rain throughout the midwest, great lakes and wet snow in parts of iowa and illinois. that will extend to the tennessee valley, parts of georgia, alabama tonight. not expecting a lot of accumulation. an inch or two in illinois and also iowa. that would be about it. by tomorrow, we will see snow in northern maine. mild for december in the northern plains. looking good in the south central states. southwest nice and dry. west coast, another storm system coming onshore later tonight. still seeing showers today. this is what radar looks like, confirming what we are expecting today. that rain is falling along the

coast in the west. that's creating soggy conditions. we are looking at blue on the map, in the midwest, through portions of the plains. that's winding down in the plains. a little bit left in part of kansas. snow in the midwest, rain in the great lakes and in new england. it's heavy at times. see the brighter colors. the heavier rain in southern florida. this will impact travel, no doubt. we are lki at likely delays as we go throughout thursday in boston, new york city, chicago. this is up i the air. of course, slow travel on the roadways as well. we are looking at possie delays ind.c., also san francisco, seattle. likelyelays in miami because we are looking at low ceilings. kind of miserable there. as we go throughout tomorrow, possible delays throughout boston as the storm lingers. breezy conditions. new york city could see delays, as well as chicago. >> michelle grossman and marissa parra before her. thank you. inside the numbers. steve kornacki breaks down the 2023 data as we look ahead to

the hurdles for president biden and former president trump in 2024. you are watching msnbc. ♪ using our technology to power different ways of learning. ♪ harnessing ai to plant new beginnings. ♪ so when minds grow, opportunities follow. my skin has been so much smoother so much more hydrated. it's olay! with olay hyaluronic body wash 95% of women had visibly-better skin. and my skin is so much more moisturized. narrator: time is running out to give a year-end gift see the difference with olay.

like no other, a gift that can help st. jude children's research hospital save lives. woman: cancer doesn't care how old you are, and it's devastatingly scary. if you're donating to st. jude, you're supporting finding a cure, because the fight never stops. narrator: every gift counts, and whatever you can give will make a difference for children like gideon. make your donation today to help st. jude save lives.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ get it with gurus. cargurus.

with just 18 days to go until the iowa caucuses, and 26 days until the new hampshire primary, steve kornacki is breaking down the data on where we stand heading into this critical election year. >> we are approaching, once every four years, the big one,

the presidential election. 2024 almost upon us. let's look at how politics -- the election of 2024 is kind of taking shape in '23. the big questions we are looking at as 2024 kicks off. who is the republican nominee? presumably against joe biden. at the start of 2023, this seemed like a very up in the air question. you can see the trend line for the candidates. at the start of '23, republicans were coming off a rough midterm. candidates who had been aligned with donald trump lost key races. at the start of '23, ron desantis was running pretty close in the poll average to donald trump. look what happened. it exploded here for trump and went the other way for desantis. what happened right around here? that was when the first indictment of trump came down, the one from the manhattan district attorney. it almost seems to have triggered a rally around trump among republicans. that has held all year, through the legal drama and everything else. here we are at the end of the

year. the average, trump just -- open lengths ahead. we will see in the early contests if any of the candidates will have a shot to beat trump. they will have to make noise whether it's desantis in iowa. he seems to be trying to plant his flag there. haley in new hampshire. she's gotten encouraging polling news there. can one of them beat trump in one of the early states? haley's south carolina will play a key role as well. can one of them beat trump in the early states and make this a race? that's what we will find out in the first six weeks of 2024. how about the democratic end? joe biden seems poised to be the democratic nominee. what year has he had? he started 2023 coming off the good midterms for democrats. his approval rating, 46%. it wasn't that bad. it has taken a hit. as we close out the year, the final poll had him at 40% approval. 57% disapproval.

how does this compare to past presidents entering the re-election year? you can see it. the 40 we have biden at. these are the final polls heading into the election year -- the re-election year that nbc conducted. trump got beat in 2020. he was at 44% heading into the re-election year. bush senior got beat, he was at 52 and heading south there. you see how that number compares. that's the lowest in an nbc poll for an incumbent facing a re-election year. it's a tight race when you poll biden versus trump. at the start of the year, the average of the polls, biden had a two-point advantage. at the end of the year, it's trump who on average has a two-point advantage. a very, very close race. what are the concerns of voters? joe biden, of course, the oldest president ever at this point. his fitness, his age, three in four voters say it's a major or moderate concern.

big thing in '24 is trump's legal situation. are there convictions? what goes on in the courtroom? 62% say that's a concern for them. will that change if there's a conviction? will that change based on how the cases sort out? big question. we will follow that well into 2024. this is interesting. there's clearly -- what this question is matching trump against a generic democrat. trump loses. biden against a generic republican, biden loses. it is showing you, there's a big appetite for trump versus biden, even though it seems each party, as we enter 2024, is poised go in that direction. that leads to the final graphic here, a poll from "the wall street journal." they included third party options. against biden and trump, they added up to 17%. that's a big question heading into 2024. is there a third party candidate to create a wild card in this? >> he has it all, that steve

kornacki. joining me now, charlie dent, and peter baker is back with us as promised. peter, let's start with the pretty low approval rating for president biden. give me a sense of the calculus from the white house right now as we are heading into the critical election year? do they think they have time to turn things around, especially if an improved economy starts hitting homes and wallets? >> the white house says, don't pay attention to the polls. you underestimated joe biden in 2020 and the democrats in 2022 and 2023. it sent off tremors of concern throughout the democratic party. the real challenge for biden is, it doesn't seem like the claiming credit for the economy is helping him. it's not a political asset for him. the question is, can he draw that contrast with former president trump that worked for him in 2020?

can you draw home those disaffected democrats and independents who may be worried about his age or may not be happy about inflation and say to them, look, you may not be happy with everything president biden has done, but he is not donald trump. that's the challenge heading into 2024. >> charlie, let's go back to ron desantis. you saw steve showing that chart which showed a spike for donald trump at the point that he was indicted and it dropped for ron desantis. at the point before that, they were pretty competitive. since then, i'm curious if you think his drop, which has consistently down, has more to do with nikki haley's surge or the troubles within his own campaign. >> in the case of ron desantis and the other candidates, that inflection point in march of 2023 where desantis started to drop, was driven by the manhattan d.a.'s indictment of

donald trump and the stormy daniels hush money case. desantis and many other candidates backed donald trump. it was an act of political malpractice. they acted as if they weren't running against him. they didn't have to comment on the local aspects, but they made a big, huge blunder back then. trump has been able to capitalize ever since. desantis, he has been a socially awkward candidate. he has been running on grievance, i'm trump without all the drama, but without much of the personality either. i think that's hurt ron desantis. nikki haley has been surging in recent weeks and months at the expense largely of ron desantis. she had a little stumble yesterday. but desantis is in freefall because of his bad campaign tactics and his own shortcomings as a candidate. >> charlie, steve showed the

lines getting further apart in the republican primary. former president trump ending the year far ahead of his competitors. how much room is there for trump's lead to shift and could his looming legal woes play a role in that? you cite alvin bragg when he brought the cases, that was the start of something. but it went up for him. >> trump has not been convicted. if he were to be convicted, voters would recognize the enormous risk that presents. i have seen numbers recently suggesting that a third of republicans would be deeply concerned if trump were convicted. that would be a death sentence for donald trump if you were to lose a significant part of his republican base. things can turn very badly for trump. one number not shown in the poll was the level of dissatisfaction among the american people among joe biden and donald trump. between 60% to 70% of americans don't want either of them.

you saw in that last number he presented that there was 17% of the vote would go toward an independent candidacy. that's where i think the no labels movement is interesting, trying to put together a fusion ticket. it's fertile for an independent movement given most think joe biden is too old and the other, donald trump, is too crazy. >> what's the reality of an independent candidate getting into the white house? come on. >> i'm not saying the candidate can win. i'm saying a movement, there's a fertile ground here. the center left to center right of the political spectrum feels underrepresented right now. there are people who are looking for an alternative to both candidates. rfk junior was polling close to 20%. you have cornell west. there will be independent candidates. >> we have to see to whom the votes will affect more. peter, what do you think is the number one issue in terms of driving voters to the polls next

year? history would suggest it's the economy. when you have serious potential challenges to democracy itself, how might those two issues battle it out? >> i think the history is only something of a guide at it point. we have seen time and time again since donald trump got on the stage seven or eight years ago that the old rules don't always apply anymore. it used to be the economy was the driving force. if that were the case, the numbers that are defining the economy right now would be pretty good for any incumbent president. doesn't seem to be helping joe biden. why is that? is that because the economy actually is doing worse than the numbers seem to indicate? people aren't feeling it in their lives. or is it because people are stuck in the tribal camps? it's about ideology. the idea that the economy drives voters may not be as salient this year as it has been in the past. in which case, it does come to the question of whether or not you want donald trump back. it may be that charlie is right, a conviction would change that. the problem for the republicans is, the trials won't have

concluded before they have chosen their nominee. they will be -- if they pick donald trump, they will be in effect in bed with him through the fall if that -- those convictions were to hurt him, they will be in trouble. that's a real challenge for republicans, whether they are willing to take that risk. >> can you imagine if a conviction comes after the convention, which has duly elected him their nominee? all bets are off. i will talk with you both an awful lot. this was good. thank you, guys. no driver, no ticket. an nbc investigation into driverless cars and what happens when they don't follow the rules of the road. you are watching msnbc.

a force to be reckon with. no, not you saquon. hm? you! your business bank account with quickbooks money, now earns 5% apy. 5% apy? that's new! yup, that's how you business differently. (man) mm, hey, honey. 5% apy? that's new! looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy!

(man) give a little information, check a few boxes, sign my name, done. they don't ask about your health? (man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health. options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase. a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling.

. when a driverless car runs a red light, who gets the ticket in our bay area nbc station reports. >> driverless cars have run red lights, crashed into other vehicles, even swerved into wet cement. plus, the so-called robo-taxis can't exactly take orders from police. >> sir, there's no one there. >> reporter: when traffic laws are broken, who gets the tickets? driverless cars are in some neighborhoods, and companies that own the vehicles can be fined, but not in california. even when drierless car break the rules, we learned there's

not much law enforcement can do. here in california, traffic tickets can only be written if there's an actual driver. >> we are in the wild west of a legal gray area when it comes to driverless cars. >> reporter: michael stevenson has been represented cash accident victims we need a new set of laws. and start collecting fares, but just two months later, the california dmv determined cruise posed an unreasonable risk to public safety, saying the most important thing is to take steps to rebuild trust. even doing things that are uncomfortable or difficult. the company pulled all 400 of

the driverless cars in the u.s. off the road. cruise declined or interview request, but we did hitch a right with waymo, its main competitor, the only driveless fleet in america. >> not all autonomous vehicles are equal. if driveless cars can still may mistakes, what convinces you? >> there's example where they need to improve. when we make an improve once, that's fixed in our system and the whole fleet gets better. the technology is only getting better from here, and it's already really good. >> waymo and cruise found their cars are in some ways safer than human drivers. neither company has experienced a single death. waymo that is traveled more that 7 million miles, cruise more

than 5 million. since human drivers on average cause about one death about every 100 million miles. >> i think all of us are still struggling to understand if they are really safer, and in what ways they might not be. marina has the ethics program at santa clara university, and says we humans have been forced on into a experimental course. we're guinea pigs. >> absolutely. >> reporter: meanwhile, california's dmv says it's -- so the next stop could be new rules. nbc news, san francisco. okay. there was nothing about that that i was comfortable watching, but by thank to him. well done on the report. still ahead, how republicans are fighting back after the

bombshell ruling kicking trump off the colorado ballot. kickinp off the colorado ballot. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. there's challenges, and i love overcoming challenges.

♪ when better money habits® content first started coming out, it expanded what i could do for special olympics athletes with developmental needs. thousands of bank of america employees like scott spend countless hours volunteering to teach people how to reach their financial goals. it felt good. it felt like i could take on the whole world. interviewer: time is running out to give a year-end gift like no other, a gift that can help st. jude children's research hospital save lives. subject 1: i think it's the most worthwhile place to put your money when it comes to childhood cancer. subject 2: if it weren't for st. jude, i wouldn't be sitting here today. subject 3: if it weren't for st. jude, a lot of kids wouldn't be with their families every day. interviewer: let's come together to help the children of st. jude fight childhood cancer. visit this website, call this number, or scan the qr code with your $19 monthly donation. join with your debit or credit card right now

and we'll send you this st. jude t-shirt you can proudly wear to show your support. today, you can help st. jude save lives. subject 4: it takes a heart for somebody to say i have this extra that i'm willing to give to st. jude so that they can help save more lives. (son) dad. you ok? (dad) it's our phone bill! we pay for things that we don't need! bloated bundles, the reckless spending! no more... (mom) that's a bit dramatic... a better plan is verizon. it starts at 25 dollars a line. (dad) did you say 25 dollars a line? (sister) and save big on things we love, like netflix and max! (dad) oh, that's awesome (mom) spaghetti night -- dinner in 30 (dad) oh, happy day! (vo) a better plan to save is verizon. it starts at $25 per line guaranteed for 3 years and get both netflix and max for just $10/mo. only on verizon. here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi

and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today.