that does it for the weekend the sunday morning. i'm simone sanders-townsend, along with my friends, alicia menendez and -- we will see you back here bright and early, saturday and sunday at 8 to 10 eastern. follow the show on social media at the weekend msnbc. velshi starts right now. hey, ali. how are you? >> i'm great. you -- looks great to. me you're still talking to each other? >> you're not in club where. >> i don't know who you have book today, i will not be outdone before my show starts. you are fabulous. thank you for two great shows, and continued success. we will enjoy the show next weekend. have a great time. i'll see you through the course of the week. good morning to all of you. it is sunday, january the 14th. i'm ali velshi. we are now a day away from what is shaping up to be a historic republican caucus and iowa. the final police ahead of

tomorrow's contest is now out. if the trends in this poll hold, donald trump is going to pull off a win by an unprecedented margin for a republican or a democratic presidential candidate in iowa. this is the final nbc news des moines registry iowa pole ahead of tomorrow's caucuses. trump, his lead is down ever so slightly, by the way. this is what was in december, 51. now he is at 48. you can see that he has 28 point lead over his next closest competitor, nikki haley. nikki haley's first choice support, meanwhile, rose from 60 to 20 points. ron desantis support has slipped three points from last month, 19 to 16. vivek ramaswamy is an out below, heat remains below 10%. the current record margin of victory in the iowa republican caucus says for a non incumbent candidates is 13 points. that was set by bob dole in 1980. trump wins to more by anything remotely close to what these

polls were predicted, he won't make history. that's an addition to the history that donald trump is already making and be the first former president to be running for office while under criminal indictment. anything can happen and iowa. the winter weather there is perilous to say the least. the caucus format can't be challenging in terms of getting up the vote. here is how tomorrow will work. i wouldn't republicans will hold caucus meetings in person at more than 1600 caucus sites this year. seven pm local time, caucus goers in iowa will check and to their corresponding precincts where they will hear speeches from representatives from each of the candidates before voting and a secret ballot. the iowa caucuses marked the first time that donald trump has returned to an election of any time since he lost the 2020 presidential election. he incited the january six insurrection, and wrapped up his ever growing list of legal troubles. a victory in iowa will hold his official come back to electoral politics, even has his eligibility for running for office is under review by the

supreme court. tomorrow's results will tee up the race to come, it will unveil who trump's main challenger won't be. it appears at the moment to beat nikki haley. she is calling fall behind trump. the polling confirms i was passion for haley is slowing. 61% majority of nikki haley supporters over here say that they are mostly enthusiastic, i'm sorry, mainly enthusiasts or not that enthusiastic about turning out. where's 88% of trump supporters say they are extremely enthusiastic, or very enthusiastic about colchicine for him. you can see the orange and the darker orange there. that is where your enthusiasm is greater. nikki haley is actually running behind event ron desantis in terms of the enthusiasm. there is evidence that trump himself might see haley as a growing threat. he has been targeting hurt this week with the same kind of false attacks that he once used against both book rock obama and ted cruz. trump alleged to a six and a half million followers on truth

social that hail is ineligible to be presidents because her parents were not u.s. citizens when she was born. now, just so we are clear, nikki haley was born in south carolina. she has looked in the united states her entire life. she qualifies to be president of the indicted states. joining me now, correspondent dasha burns from the convention center in cedar rapids. van halen from iowa where donald trump is going to hold a rally later today. sack meacham joins us as well. he is a senior correspondent at fox, cover challenges to democracy, but when populism, and the world of ideas. he is also the author of the forthcoming book, the reactionary spirit. how americas insidious tradition swept the world. good morning to all of. thank you for being with us. vaughn, let's talk about this nikki haley stuff. her numbers are getting a little better, but this enthusiasm is an issue. if you put her against ramaswamy or donald trump,

fewer people are as enthusiasts about her as they are about the other candidates. what does this all mean? >> vaughn is giving me the strong silent look. let me pause for a second. i will go back to him once he has our audio. josh, you look like you are in a relatively warm place. it's iowa, it's winter. i'm not sure why everyone is fascinated by this weather, but it could affect turnout. >> yeah, because it is pretty bad out there, ali. listen, when i was out there earlier this morning, the re--- it was negative 39. i do not know how to describe to you what that is like. people are actually concerned that it could impact caucus goers at the stage. when you talk about there with enthusiast some, that is where that is going to matter. how enthusiasts are voters about their candidates, to go

out and those kinds of temperatures, right? when it comes to former president trump, he says, look, might voters will walk over plus to vote for me. when it comes to run desantis, you can see his enthusiasm is a little higher than haley's. the other factor that makes him more confident, even though he has slipped in the polling is the organization and iowa, ali. it has been really strong. he started his ground game back in june of last year. they built up a massive infrastructure. in terms of that field operation, the actual mechanism to get those voters, get into those precincts, get into the caucus goers to their locations, because it is a more complicated process, then in a normal primary. people have to travel further distances. it is an actual process. it is not as simple as going to the ballot box, trucking, and leaving. you go, listen to speeches, and you set out in the outset

there. they have that strong field operation. that could be the game changer here when it comes to that race for second place that we see heat up right now between nikki haley and ron desantis. >> thank you for that. zak, when you look at those polls, what you see is that nikki haley and ron desantis spent a lot of time -- >> guys, you are talking -- >> they are swiping at each other. they talk about joe biden. they're not getting anywhere without taking trump down a notch or two. they won't get into that. with nikki haley, would not get into the cause of the civil war, would not say slavery. they do not want to damage donald trump's base of supporters if they ever need to use them. >> yeah. the important thing to understand about this primary is it is a fundamental -- there is no competitive republican primary. there is a donald trump -- and there are a bunch of people who are in something that is

kind of like running for president, but not really running for president at this point. trump's point is up 50% in the national polls. haley's close and new hampshire, depending on how much pulling you get. after that, it looks like trump, trump, trump down the line. the man has complete total command over the republican party. the question is just what might up trump future look like. as long as he is alive and capable of running for presidency, he will control the republican party. even probably from a jail cell, if i had to bet. we can talk about what's likely to happen and i, what the margins, but polls will be more accurate, what supporters care more, but desantis and haley, i think, they know that what they're doing is running for the future, or stave off humiliation in desantis's case. there is no chance that it will run after trump because they can't win that way, or any

other way. this is decided from the start, to be honest. we are angling out what the narrative will be when it's over. >> that said, van, if one is looking for something to stare at at the screen, to pop up, look for the alerts to breathe, and the reports to listen to from you and dasha on monday night, the storm becomes how much donald trump wins by, whether he achieves expectations or doesn't, but really, what happens next with nikki haley, who, as that comment, it is going to new hampshire with more strength. that will depend on how she performs tomorrow in iowa. >> right. look, ali, when we're talking about nikki haley, the expectation coming out of this poll is that she comes in second place in knocks a run to santa's. for nikki haley, the striking number from that poll is the fact that just 9% of the votes, you said, that they intended in

caucus, say they're extremely enthusiast about their support. compare that to 49% of the folks who say donald trump. they were extremely enthusiastic about supporting him. that is something that is permeating across the electorate. not just here but across the country. that is where the election that i am looking at, those independent and democratic voters. here on caucus night, they can change party registration. i just was massaging with two, one independent and one democrat last night, asking them even with this weather, do they intend to come, change party registration for nikki haley. they say they won't do that. in an effort to take down donald trump. frankly, how much weight does that actually carry? potentially a marginal, you could see an uptick of three or 4%. this is due to independents and democrats who come to help nikki haley. that three or 4% could be enough to knock out rhonda scent is tomorrow night, give port momentum going to new hampshire, knowing independents

do not have to change their registration. in south carolina, folks can choose whether they take part in that democratic primary, or the south carolina primary. is that enough to conquer the republican nomination? this is the same conversation i had in wyoming back when nikki cheney was running. ali, the question was what who would change the registration to help nikki haley. a good number did. liz cheney is still lost by 45 percentage points to harry -- while they helped out a few percentage points, it was not enough to beat the trump backed candidate. that is the question i will look like and iowa. >> zak, in this last poll, when it came out, i only am interested in how far ahead donald trump's. something struck me. there is a question i want to show you here that stood out to me. the question is, how the iowa voters vote for if donald trump became the gop nominee.

overall, you see that top number, everyone who is a caucus goers, 71% say they would vote for, they would vote for donald trump if he becomes the nominee. the blue on the left, interestingly, 11% overall say they would vote for joe biden. this is intriguing. look at the second line. that is just nikki haley supporters. of those supporting nikki haley, 23% say they would support donald trump if he became the gop. 43% say they would go to joe biden. tell me what this tells you. it's one poll, i don't know how to evaluate whether it's a trend, and whether that is important. what do you make of that? >> that is an incredible finding. it is really striking and the sense that it shows you that healy is drawing from people who are so fed up with donald trump running the republican party, and leaving it again. they are willing to vote for her even if they might not be

republicans, or all that conservative. that tells me two things. first, you don't win a republican primary under those circumstances. that is just not going to cut it if you can't when they conservative base. the second thing, this is supported by another poll i saw this week. it suggests that biden's numbers might be stronger than they look, if you look at national polling. this other poll i was talking about says that two thirds of undecided voters at present did not believe that donald trump is going to be the republican nominee. or the idea that republicans might nominate him to people paint a lot of attention to american politics. it is inconceivable. how could you help this guy who's been indicted four times. who has -- what are you thinking? how are we all done with this guy? for voters who are going to tune in the general election, there is going to be a rude awakening. this is a choice between biden and the chaos we all remember

clearly, and the trump administration. if i am the biden people, i see those numbers. the haley numbers, this other poll i'm talking about. i'm thinking, we are on president in the polls right now. whether that remains to be true, as the year goes on, it's hard to say. any presidential election between two major party candidates is bound to be close, given the political system. but that finding in iowa, wow. that really is striking. >> that would surprise me too. dasha, if you had one shot, one opportunity to seize everything you ever wanted, would you capture it or let it slip? what happened to vivek warmer swami? who used to sing that all the time. >> it's a great question. i do think that the budding romance between former president trump and vivek ramaswamy has absolutely wilted. he started this campaign as his sort of staunchest defender. i think, especially since our

sat down between nbc news and the des moines register, vivek ramaswamy, he took some shots at the former president. calling him a wounded warrior. saying that they duped him, that they would not do ramaswamy. that did not sit well with the former president and his team. they are now taking aim at him. that is a problem for ramaswamy, because the vast majority of his success in this primary has come from his role as the trump guy, the meeting trump junior, whatever you want to call it. he has shot himself and the foot with that lane. where he goes beyond that is a big question mark, he is not winning over any voters that aren't in that trump camp. he did the double grasp leap twice, and he is not even broken single digits. i've got to tell you, i don't know, sitting down for an

interview with him is like being in a washing machine, ali. >> don't tell ali -- that i did a rap lyric. we'll keep that between the four of us. good to see you. thank you for being here. i will see my reporter friends in the next hour. zak, good to see. you dasha burns and des moines. vaughn hill your indian indiola -- thank you for joining us. the fight over abortion access and the broader ability to save lives is that to go before the supreme court again this, from leaving the future of america's health care system up in the air once more. a law professor and author, dr. michelle goodman, goodwin, joins me after this. upped, or journalists groups and the families of two perspective reporters recently killed in gaza are restarting israel's claim that those reporters were terrace. we'll will talk about the firestorm that they're just have set off amongst press advocates worldwide. vocates worldwide. s it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> many republican lawmakers

like to say their antiabortion stances are rooted in the desire to save innocent lives. view, if any, are able to acknowledge the abortion bans they support are resulting in worse health outcomes for women. abortion bans have not affects off all levels of the health care system. there are women forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term because they are unable to obtain abortion care, which has become more difficult to access. at the same time, physicians are more likely to leave, or stop practicing medicine and states where abortion bans are in place. that is creating shortages in critical places. it's also understandable why that's happening. physicians are the ones who are threatened with the punishment in antiabortion legislation. performing and operation in texas or missouri could result in a doctorate losing his or her medical license, event a years-long jail sentence. simply put, abortion bans make doctors jumps more difficult,

because in some instances, the mob prevents them from performing and abortion, even if that is the proper and necessary medical care that the situation calls for. while some states include exceptions to save the life of the woman, those exceptions don't offer actual guidance that accurately reflects the reality that pregnant patients and their doctors face. different types of complications can arise during the course of a pregnancy. it's not always a matter of life and death. it is about presenting a bad situation from turning into a worse one that could be a matter of life or death. one doctor summed up the conundrum he and his peers face in this way. quote, one of the great challenges and rewarding features of upstream essex is that you have two patients. they sometimes have competing interest at what is dependent on the other. your job is to get both through the pregnancy safely, but that's not always possible. it is very frustrating to have your hands tied, because the patients you need to save, is

not the one that's protected by law. shortly after roe was overturned in 2022, the biden administration offered new guidance to all states about a federal law called the emergency medical treatment and active labor act. known as emtala. it requires hospitals that receive medicare funding to do whatever is medically necessary in order to stabilize a patient. including performing abortions, even in states where the procedure is banned. with that guidance and, plays the justice department filed a lawsuit against the state of idaho, challenging it's abortion ban on the grounds that a complex with emtala. the lawsuit has been making its way through the courts for a year and a half. the supreme court announced it would take up the case during this term. it's scheduled for april, it has allowed the idaho abortion ban to take effect in the meantime. this is the first time since roe was overturned that the supreme court has weighed in on a matter involving a state level abortion ban.

a lot of attention is paid to this case and the months to come, since many are continuing to seek clarity about how to navigate this post roe era. when we come back, i'm joined by a law professor, michelle goodman, who is the perfect guest to tell us everything we need to know about this case. ow about this case uto quote online. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. -really? -get a quote at progresivecommercial.com. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day. mike had a heart attack a year ago. uniquely designed with carbsteady. but he's still living in the red. with a very high risk of another attack. with his risk factors his recommended ldl-c level should be below 55. find out if you're living in the red. learn how to get a free ldl-c test. when you shop wayfair,

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don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. relief is possible. talk to a doctor about nurtec odt. >> before the break, i told you about the adverse effect on the health care system and the supreme court's recent decision to take up a challenge in idaho's strict abortion ban. to continue this conversation, michelle goodwin, professor of constitutional law and policy at georgetown. she is the author of the book, policing the womb. michelle, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. you and i have spoken about exceptions in antiabortion legislation, and how we are seen example after example of

where they don't work because they lacked clarity. they cause of physicians and or hospitals to not make decisions. they imperil peoples lives. this seemingly challenge is whether or not doctors in states with abortion bans can actually take lifesaving action in medical emergencies. it seems to me like i wouldn't want to be in idaho for a medical emergency if i were pregnant right now. >> that is right. idaho had texas, other states, it is quite alarming. as you laid out so well. in paula is a federal law. it is foundations, and, facts were to help pregnant patients receive the appropriate care that they needed because prior to the lot been passed by congress, patients that report would be literally -- by roads, been shuttered from hospitals because they did not have health insurance. the very idea behind this law was to help pregnant patients

that were in distress. i think what we're seeing here is that the law does not matter because this is what that law is about. you mentioned the threats against physicians, making it difficult and idaho, where hospitals have said they don't want to do any kind of maternal care because doctors fear losing their medical license to practice. they fear criminal punishment. they fear signs and penalties. it is really a nightmare for the patient, and as well, for the doctor and medical professional as a whole. >> you outlined the way in which reproductive care or abortion care is health care for women. a woman with a doctor, who then gets pregnant, what are you supposed to do? now you go to a different doctor. your normal health care, if you are sick, as a pregnant woman, falls into a different category, governed by different people,

potentially policed by different laws. >> in fact, police and members of the legislature, some of who have not attended college. don't have medical degrees at all. who are allowing their particular ideology sometimes, it is religious ideology or others, to govern what is the health care. to put all of this and contacts, i think it is important to remember that roe v. wade was not a close decision. to give us a sense about how outrageous and is that we are hearing today. what was a 7 to 2 opinion. five of those seven justices were republicans. justice blackman, who wrote the opinion and roe was put on the court by richard nixon. no one would say richard nixon was a bleeding heart liberal. not at all. it was understood that states needed to get out of the criminal punishment of doctors with regard to abortion, and they needed to leave women alone so they could get the proper health care that they needed. as, well girls too.

let's remember that when idaho said we are not going to allow abortion even in cases of emergency, where life might be avarice, it is not just someone who is 25 or 35, they have all been talking about 11-year-old to. we have seen cases in ten-year-old girl having to flee one state to get to another in order to have an abortion after been raped. even in mississippi now with kids going into middle school after rape mothers. it is a horrific landscape. >> does the fact the supreme court allowed idaho to, allowed idaho to enforce its abortion ban before it here's the case, does it signal to you anything about what the justices are thinking? they had a choice there. we could hear this case, until then, this is where they stayed. >> that is right. to give some background on that, i'm glad you raised this. in district court judge said this was a law that violated

the federal law, and since the time that we had a supreme court and a congress, it was understood the federal law from state law. a district court did not allow the law to go into effect. that was challenged. a three judge panel said they would issue that today. the full nine circuit heard it and said, no, we won't allow the law to go again so that women and girls in that state could still help the medical care that they need. the supreme court intervened after this decision, the supreme court said they would allow this band to state and effect. basically ignoring federal law and tradition of federal law. also ignoring the fact that the ninth circuit would hear the case at the end of january. the supreme court intervene, and that intervention really plays a risk. everyone in that state that has a potential for pregnancy. >> chelle, it is always a

pleasure to talk to you. i've learned so much from you. michelle goodwin is a constitutional law at georgetown law school. the author of policing the womb. invisible women and the criminalization of motherhood. still to come this morning on velshi, donald trump and at least. we'll take a dive into how dangerous and unhinged a second term trump could be if a federal court rules in favor of his near universal immunity claim, and trump's warning of -- if the charges he is facing keep him out of the white house. the whit house. of gum disease. all of these signs could lead to worse. parodontax is clinically proven to reverse the signs of early gum disease. parodontax, the gum experts. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. ♪♪

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velshi banned book club will be a little different. we've talked at length about florida and texas, and their insidious campaign to restrict access to literature in schools and libraries. now, another state is attacking libraries from two different fronts. i'm talking about north dakota. libraries have become a battleground in that state. restricted not by one but by two laws. one law takes aim at the

children's section, prohibiting public lawyers from london books that contain so-called objectionable materials. the other law threatens librarians with jail time as a consequence if they do not comply. one north dakota-based author is talking about the reality of what these bands mean. in a new york times op-ed, taylor -- author of boys and oil, growing up gate and a fractured lens, says by that definition, a photograph or a written description of the venous to milo could, depending on the eye of the beholder, leak out of bounds. let's be honest, is not the venous to milo these laws are going to come for first. it's books with lgbtq stories, or books by lgbtq authors. the cut of books that have provided so many queer young people with a lifeline when they needed it most. and quote. taylor grobe will be joining us to discuss the need for lovers to be free and fair for everyone, everywhere, including north dakota. don't miss this meeting of the

velshi banned book club. after the break, there has been a stately number of media workers dying in the israel-hamas war. we will take a moment to discuss the tremendous sacrifices made by palestinian journalist putting everything on the line to tell the world what is happening in gaza. at is happening in gaza. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach.

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southern gaza, a group of mourners congregated for a makeshift funeral service.

they wilt and they prayed over a body draped in a white burial shroud, covered with a blue press jacket. another journalist killed while covering the war between israel and hamas. this man, wearing his own navy blue press jacket, embracing a crying woman, is while -- he is al jazeera's gaza bureau chief. he is holding back tears of his own because the percent there all morning is his 27-year-old son, hamza. like his father, hamza wasn't al jazeera journalist. he was killed alongside a colleague in an israeli airstrike that hits their car in the southern city of rafah on the egyptian border a week ago. at first, the israeli defense forces confirmed carrying out the strike, say that it had targeted a terrorist vehicle. an idf statement saying, in part, we are aware of reports that during the strikes, two other suspects who were in the same feel cool as the terrorists were also hit. nbc news asked if the idf had evidence to support this allegation, that an individual

in the vehicle was a terrorist. the spokesperson said the incident was unfortunate. an investigation is ongoing. on wednesday night, the idf put out another statement. say it targeted that vehicle because the individuals inside were operating a hostile drone near rafah. the idf also went on to claim that -- were members of gaza based terrorist organizations. both of their families have rejected these claims by israel, calling them fabricated and false. al jazeera also condemned these new claims, calling them, quote, false and misleading attempts to justify the killings of our colleagues. after joining the mourners, distraught over the death of his son, while vowed to keep working. demonstrating that defined perseverance that he had displayed since the beginning of this war. personally, loss and tragedy has followed while through this bloody conflict. in october, while was reporting live, on al jazeera, when he learned that his wife, his 15 year old son, his seven year

old daughter, and his grandson had all been killed and an israeli airstrike. this is the moment while learned the news. he is escorted, by fellow -- in that hospitals morgue. returning to the airways the next day he said, quote, despite the pain and wounds, i would return fast to me to the cameras lens. and quote. in december, while's commitment was killed in a drone strike as the pair were covered the aftermath of another attack. while sustained injuries in that attack as well. my colleague knows well ado well from his time in gaza. he spoke with his friend last night about the sacrifices his family made so he could keep reporting. it was wild first tv interview with western media. it has been translated into english. >> translator: when the time comes, bloodshed, slaps our sacrifice, i shall meet them and give up this job? never.

the is incumbent on me to be faithful to the blood of my wife, the partner of my life, and my son, who had to play the role of father and older brother. my son mahmoud, who was attending an american school and preparing to be a journalist who speaks english. and jim, who was the apple of my eye. the flower of my household. she entered school, and my grandson, who is not more than six months, and 14 members of my family. my cousins who died at the same time. all of this made it incumbent on me to be faithful to them when their blood was -- because they made the sacrifice. for all these reasons, i cannot continue. >> a record number of journalists have died in this conflict. more journalist have been killed in the first ten weeks of the israel gaza war thin have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year. according to cpj. as of yesterday, 82 journalists and media workers have been killed since the war began on october 7th. that is according to cpj as

well. 75 more palestinians, for more israelis, three more lebanese. the work of journalists like a while and his son hamza, like their colleague mostafa, is critical. most mainstream a let's do not have access to cause a. for those that do, that access is not free of israeli central censorship and control. we must rely on the voices of the palestinian journalist to be loud enough for the world to hear. the world must witness what they witness. ha they witness small ships with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at viking.com. (christina) wanna know the secret ingredient to running my business? (tina) her.

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hamas is the deadliest in modern history for journalist, according to the committee to protect journalists. joining me now are two of the previous journalists i know. -- he is an independent journalist and the founder of the block diplomats official youtube channel, and block diplomats substack newsletter. karen elias, an award-winning columnist for the washington post. she was also jamal coaches editor at the washington post until he was killed by agents of the saudi government at the consulate and is temple. welcome to both of. you thank you for being here. tara, you and terrell, and others, have been pointed out to us for some time that for some reason, the world's quieter about this. journalist themselves, in many cases, are quieter about the deaths of our colleagues in palestine, in gaza, then we perhaps otherwise would be.

>> 1000 percent. as you mentioned in your intro, i was blas to be on the forefront of defending, supposedly, our western values and press freedom. journalism when jamal -- was killed by saudi agents. i remember how there was vigils, and outpouring of grief and anger over jamal's killing. a vow for us to protect arab journalists. now, here we are. some almost five years later since then. as you said in your introduction, nearly hundred journalists and media workers have been killed in gaza. i have been, frankly, stunned, angry, and infuriated by the lack of solidarity. the lack of outrage.

the lack of calling on our leaders, on israel to do more to protect journalists. so it really underscores a apoxsee, it is difficult for me to look away from. >> terrell, these journalists and many cases, their job is harder. when you work and a country, when you are in a place like gaza, or in some of these countries, it is harder to do than our job. these people, in many cases, have to wear their jackets every day. they're under threat not just for their own government but other governments. there is a sense with these journalists who have died in gaza, or in this conflict, that some of them had it coming. it is not the same as being a journalist elsewhere. they're not entitled to the same protections and safeties that perhaps i would if i were reported. there >> absolutely. i can tell you this as someone who has covered the war in ukraine since it started. ultimately, it is easy to create narratives about who is

good versus who is bad. when i was in ukraine, it was easy to saint russia bad, ukrainians are good. that was true. the problem comes in when it goes to another region where you have palestinians, for example. so the way that they're covered is that they're the only people who are allowed to give voice to what is going on. just like black people in the united states are expertise is not really acknowledged, our voices aren't acknowledged until white people confirmed that it is true. so the difference there is that we have had decades upon decades of israeli propaganda that makes us forget about the fact that the creation of israel came at the expense of 700,000 palestinians. the challenge with that is as journalist, the courage that we need in order to bring humanity to these people, because what often happens is that either, with palestinians, they either deserve it or they had it coming. there is really, there has not been an inflection point in the united states. we were talking about this and

earlier conversation. about arab blood. in this case, in this country, that inflection point with our blood came full circle with the mic rounds up the world, with the eric garner's, came with the george floyd's. it made people kind of care. we've had decades of wars in the middle east, colonialism that is made us, it has made the american public feel like maybe that is just the way it operates in that part of the world. journalist pay a role in that in ways they don't care to admit. god bless while and his family. imagine if a journalist from the new york times, the washington post, abc, msnbc, lost an entire family? help it wildwood react to that. but because they're palestinians, because the brown people, no one cares. ultimately, that is the way it goes. journalist who are not calling out the hypocrisy are a part, they are complicit in that narrative. >> there are others that say that this is a bad environment to be a journalist. if you are a journalist in gaza, you know, that bad things will

happen to you. we live in a world in going back to a world war protected journalist was a priority. that is one of the things that cannot be had from the idea about whether or not they can attempt to preserve the lives of journalists in gaza. they're sort of saying, if you are in the wake of the stuff we're doing, you are going to go down. >> none of that stops us from expressing solidarity and support to journalist and ukraine who are documented and filming, and risking their lives, very bravely, to document what was happening with the russian invasion. a difficult environment, yes. difficult environments. that is not, that does not excuse the victim blaming element of this. again, you don't have to kill a journalist in order to silence them. deaths are the ultimate

silencing, but that doesn't include capturing journalist who, palestinian journalist, who have said they have stopped their coverage because they have to focus on the fact that they are human and they are trying to survive. they are trying to survive starvation. they are trying to survive disease. we, cpj have noted in this report, allegations of not just journalists been targeted, but allegations that their entire families are being targeted. emergent the impossible choice of deciding whether or not to bear witness to your own groups systematic this mission, and whether or not you want to live. whether your father, mother, children, neighbors, whether -- while has made this choice, he is the best of what our profession has to offer. he is 1000 times more brave

than a lot of people sitting in their offices, air conditioned, safe, here in the u.s.. so i think it is really important that those of us who are in this profession keep calling this out. we know that there are other challenges, it is very difficult to get personal protective equipment in to help these journalists. at the same time, when your house is been struck by a missile, there is only so much that one can do. so, again, this goes back to, this didn't just happen today in terms of the killings of journalist, palestinian journalist and gaza. we have to also remember abdel -- who was killed as well. also a legendary al jazeera journalist. palestinian american. there has still not been any accountability for her death. to take this all in totality, we cannot separate the deaths, and the callous indifference to

the deaths of palestinian journalists, to the callous and difference against the palestinian people who we see so tragically and the west. >> i want to put up a document from the coite about the generals who have been killed around the world and various other conflicts going ck to 2006. there were a lot of people killed iraq. 56 in iraq. 35 and philippines. 32 in syria. somalia, afghanistan, ukraine, look at israel and gaza. 82. this is an important point. these journalists, who we go to events to award them every year, they are bearing witness. without bearing witness, you cannot hold people to account. if you can't tell people what's going, on there is no second part to the story. when you silence people, whether through killing them, or through the idea that they're going to die and the coverage of the stuff, it does have the effect of having parents tell arc, it's don't become a journalist. or parents with your journalist

saying, you would do the same thing. you go into dangerous places. when they kill journalist, you'll have more people telling you, don't do this, it's too risky. >> i was almost killed multiple times when i was in ukraine. i literally, i was almost killed by a russian airstrike, four of the soldiers i was withdrawing that struck were killed. it is not an easy job to do at all. mind, you with 15 to 25 pounds of protective gear on you. one of the things that my work resonated with so many people is the passion and the humanity that i want to the ukrainian people, as they were experiencing it. i think that the contradictions that i see is that in palestine, there are people who are, like me, when i was in ukraine, were without a government sensor. no one was telling me what to do or say. but in gaza, it's a vastly different experience. people can trust my voice about what is going on there. the problem in palestine, the problem with the palni