gaza, under what is understood to be terrible conditions, how moss yesterday posted what i think is the fifth or sixth hostage video. it showed three young women being held. they said they had been held 107 days. they were clearly under duress. if it is the truth, then, that means it was four days ago. and this is what has really crawled under the skin of israelis. that, and added to the incident you mentioned, in which three hostages were killed, let's say, in a friendly fire mishap -- >> yeah. >> so, israelis are deeply confused right now, feeling on the one hand that the war is justified, and on the other that this cannot go on. >> noga tarnopolsky, it's always so wonderful to get your insight. and i appreciate you staying up very lay there for us. i really do. thank you. >> thank, you chris.

>> that is "all in" for the week. "alex wagner tonight" starts right now. good evening, alex wagner. welcome back. it's good to be home, my friend. it's good to be home. >> thanks. >> thanks to you at home for joining me this evening. this is park avenue. it's an historic 32 -- in manhattan, it's one of the highlights, you could say, in donald trump's real estate portfolio. and because of the new york attorney general's lawsuit against mr. trump, we know that, in 2020, the trump organization received an appraisal for trump park avenue, which set its value at 84 point $5 million. it's an interesting some. today, a jury ordered donald trump to pay writer e. jean carroll 83 point $3 million, approximately one trump park avenue, for defaming her. breaking that number down a little bit more, the jury awarded e. jean carroll 18 point $3 million to compensate her for the harm trump's lies

caused her. they awarded her another $65 million in punitive damages to, well, punish donald trump, to deter him from defaming e. jean carroll ever again. we will have more on that in just a moment. a nine member jury took just two hours and 45 minutes to reach its verdict after hearing final arguments from trump, and carroll's lawyers. mr. trump himself spent the final day of the trial causing disruption. and when ms. carroll's lawyers were given closing arguments, he stood up and walked out of the room, at which point the judge interrupted ms. carroll's lawyers and order that the official record reflect donald trump's abrupt exit. at one point the judge had to caution trump's attorney, elena habba, that she was on the verge of spending some time in lock-up for her own interruptions. , then around the time trump's attorney was making her closing arguments, more than a dozen posts -- a dozen posts -- were made on trump's truth

social account, attacking both e. jean carroll, and the judge. posts that repeated some of the same defamatory claims for which donald trump was now being forced to pay millions and millions of dollars. by the way, this was after trump had already posted a video at 12:16 a.m., in which he personally attacks ms. carroll again. >> i don't even know who this woman is. i have no idea who she is, where she came from. this is another scam. it's a political witch hunt. and somehow, we are going to have to fight this. >> all this would seem to be grounds for e. jean carroll to potentially sue donald trump for a defamation again. and remember that this is the second defamation case brought by e. jean carroll to come to trial. a different jury, already, awarded her 5.5 billion dollars in her other case against donald trump. donald trump is literally awash

and defamation cases here. he is on the hook for extraordinary amounts of money. and yet he cannot seem to help himself. now, trump has vowed to appeal this verdict and, as he's already appealed the verdict for his other defamation case. but in the meantime, donald trump still has to find a way to pay. as the new york times very helpfully explains, mr. trump has tapped his political action committees coffers to pay for his own legal fees and other expenses stemming from his criminal indictments and civil trials. yet, 83 point $3 million eclipses the amount in his political accounts. the verdict on friday will require donald trump to reach into his own pocket. so, in order to meet his financial obligations here, donald trump will either have to give the court $83 million to hold on to while the appeals process lays out, or he will have to put up some kind of

collateral for a loan. now, the internet is already having fun with that sectioned option. there are already several depictions of e. jean carroll tower, and e. jean carroll towards chicago. we already know that the appraised value of trump park avenue would just barely cover the cost of trump's obligations here, and that is very likely not even enough to cover all his financial exposure. after all, we are still awaiting a decision by new york judge arthur engoron, the man who is overseeing trump's massive civil fraud case. that case, new york attorney attorney general letitia james is seeking a judgment of three inches 70 billion dollars. and judge arthur engoron's ruling is expected in the next couple of -- it could be a very expensive start to donald trump's new year. whatever the exact price tag, though, the civil trials are proof that donald trump cannot escape accountability forever, that eventually, the bill comes due. in response to today's verdict,

e. jean carroll -- a statement. this is a great victory for every woman who stands up when she's been knocked down, and a huge defeat for everybody who has tried to keep a woman down. joining me now are neal katyal, former acting solicitor general of the united states, and katie phang host of the katie phang show, here on msnbc. -- in new york today. >> i know the internet is having fun with it. but this is a really serious thing, a former president has now been found liable for sexually abusing e. jean carroll, and is now not just liable, but has to pay tens of millions of dollars in damages because the jury found that they needed that much to do -- would he do something like this again? so, to use the technical legal term, it's a big lee

bigly lost for donald trump. -- or the biden administration, it is a jury of donald trump's peers. and they heard him. they had the opportunity present the best case he could. he tried. they found it thoroughly unconvincing. >> yeah. >> -- for what e. jean carroll endured, but there certainly some sense of justice. >> katie phang, this is money for defaming ms. carroll. there was a separate trial for the sexual assault and the price tag here is extraordinary. it seems to me, a layman. but i wonder if you can talk a little bit about your expectations for how down trump actually coughs up this money, and whether this is held in escrow, whether he seeks, alone given what happened in previous civil trials. >> yeah, so, alex, i like to say, don't sleep on the civil cases. people get very excited about the criminal cases. because clearly, the idea of donald trump in jail is pretty titillating. however, don't sleep on the civil cases. because those are the ones that

hit him where it hurts him the most. donald trump defiantly thinks that he is not going to have to serve a day in jail. and, as of right now, he has not. but when it comes to paying up, he has had to pony up at least five point 5 to 5 point $6 million. because he had to post that in order to appeal the first defamation trial victory that e. jean carroll secured against him. now, whether he is able to pony up that same amount in terms of the verdict that just came in is left to be seen. and under the appropriate strategery statutory structures that exist he is going have to pay the entire amount -- plus interest to cover the duration of the appeals process. we do know the first defamation trial that e. jean carroll brought and successfully won in 2023, that that one is the winding its way through the appellate court. and so, that it just keeps on ticking along. but january 31st is right along the corner. and that is a date that justice arthur engoron, in the new york

attorney civil fraud trial, is due to render his verdict on the remaining counts that have been brought by laetitia james. and as we, know she is seeking through inseverability dollars in discouragement. so, if donald trump thought the this $83.3 million dollars today was a lot of, money he may be in for a rude awakening next week. but i also want to talk about, very quickly, alex, the following concept, which is this. when you saw what happened today with donald trump happen, it is because there was a foundation laid from that first trial, meaning he wins in today, and he could not, throughout the course of this trial, deny liability. and that was because of that original verdict. same thing went on in the new york attorney generals case. a finding of partial -- justice judgment was found by justice engoron, so -- perpetrated, against by donald trump -- he went into this latest trial against laetitia james with the same thing. and so, because of that, and when you see, that you've now

had two juries come back against him, to neal katyal's point as well, there have been grand juries that have returned indictments. these have been people, these have been ordinary citizens that have been called to duty, that have been asked to serve in these capacities. they are the ones that have returned indictments. and now they are the ones that have returned these verdicts. and so these are the people, the ordinary citizens that are doing extraordinary work, that are telling donald trump, you are now being held accountable. >> that is such a good. point and i want to get to judge engoron's looming decision in a minute. but, neal, to katie phang's point about the jury, i thought this was really remarkable. judge kaplan, the judge in this, case told the jury, my advice to you is that you never disclose that you were on this jury. first of, all neal, how unusual is it for a judge to say something like that to a jury? and if you are a member of the jury, talk to me about how extraordinary that position is in the age of trump.

>> in a quarter century of practicing, alex, i've never heard a statement like that from any judge. it just does not exist. and it just demonstrates how far out of the norm donald trump's, and what he does to people who call him, out and hold him liable. and so, e. jean carroll has to fear. the jury has to fear. and this judge is not like some wild eyed lefty judge. this is one of the most respected judges in the country, judge kaplan. i don't think he's considered political in any way, shape or form. and looking for him to say that, i think, it's pretty extraordinary. and then to pick up on a point that katie made, if i were one of trump's criminal attorneys right now, i would be terrified of what happened today. because it is not the amount of damages that $83 million is concerning, as much as it shows how much ordinary people, juries, don't trust donald trump. they don't believe him. and you also saw the way donald trump acted in court.

you can't storm out a court, or martyr under your breath, or acts like an entitle toddler in a criminal trial. it's not going to work before the jury. and so, i think if you are one of trump's lawyers right, now facing the criminal, stuff you are going to double down on your attempt to try to delay, delay, delay testing until after the election, and the -- and undo those prosecutions. -- can't be undone, even if he wins the presidency, this judgment will stand and -- try and reverse it, obviously, on appeal. but he can't go to the justice department to drop. it >> neal, just to that end, i think it's worth remarking on a little bit the way in which judge lewis kaplan dealt with donald trump's, as you called them, toddler outbursts. there's been talk, about, can any judge rain in donald trump as he -- it feels like judge kaplan actually managed it quite well. and the jury understood that management, which was how they

came to the verdict they did. >> yeah, caplan is an extraordinary judge, a tough judge. this is a judge that just presided over the sandbank been freed trial before. and yes, he did not tolerate donald trump's antics at all, or his lawyers, for that matter. and it remains to be seen that whether other judges will be like that, but i think watching judge chutkan in court, i think she's like judge kaplan, in the sense of tough, no nonsense, and a political. >> katie, i want to go back to. that the point of judge engoron, and i guess i wonder, to what degree is judge engoron looking at the verdict, here the magnitude of the jury's decision in terms of awarding $83.3 million dollars in this defamation case? and to what degree that that price tag figures into his own arithmetic, if you will, as he holds the trump organization

liable for fraud? >> yeah, so, alex, i don't think justice engoron cares, and i don't mean that in a bad way. i mean it in a good. way justice engoron has already delivered what people have labeled the corporate death penalty on donald trump, and whether that holds up on appeal is yet to be seen, but we've already seen judge engoron enter a blustering order against donald trump on the other defendants when it comes to the findings of fraud that justice engoron has reached. and so i think we are all aware, i think the world is acutely aware of what has happened to donald trump today, to the tune of $83.3 million dollars, but i think justice engoron is looking -- if he's looking at that, it is not going to influence what he does in his case. it is just going to sit there and basically, probably, justify, in his mind, hammering donald trump for upwards of 300 something million dollars. i did want to quickly know something, because neal talked about the fact that, if donald trump becomes president again, he just want to eradicate all of his criminal prosecutions and indictments and they're all going to go by the wayside, the candle many this one.

we will call that he tried them. we remember, this is the very first of e. jean carroll's cases that she brought against donald trump. that because donald trump was president of the united states at the time that he made the defamatory statements at issue in this case, the department of substituted a sell for donald trump. under the westfall act. and, so there was this litigation that went through appeals to basically get the doj to withdraw its certification. but if they had not done so, if the doj had remained, in this case, would never have gone for. and so, there is a lot of stuff that has gone on. this is the first lawsuit that was brought by e. jean carroll. it was not the second. the second one actually went to trial first. but this is the first a lawsuit that was. brought about for the doj withdrawing its certification, this case never would've seen the light of a jury trial. >> it's just an extraordinary moment, i think, in holding a wrongdoer accountable, and

someone who, by the way, continued to defame the person in question after this trial had begun, the eve of its conclusion. e. jean carroll could keep suing donald trump as long as he makes the statements, as far as it seems. neal katyal and katie phang, thank you so much for your time tonight. and a big programming note. e. jean carroll is going to give her first interview following this verdict to our very own rachel maddow this coming monday night at nine pm 9:00 pm eastern -- what trans fellow republicans are saying or not saying about that 83 million dollar. verdict that is next. baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪

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e. jean carroll's ladies defamation trial began, nearly a week and a half, go this is what former south carolina governor nikki haley had to say about her tree chief rival for the republican presidential nomination. >> you are the only woman in this race. how do you feel about your party's front runner being held liable for sexual abuse? >> first of, all i have not paid attention to his cases. and i'm not a lawyer. all i know is that he is innocent until proven guilty. >> okay, wait.

donald trump has already been found liable of sexual assault. the fact that donald trump had sexually assaulted e. jean carroll, the fact that he had been found liable for defamation there had been established well in advance of this particular trial. another jury found trump liable for sexually beating, ms. carroll -- and the jury tonight has ordered mr. trump to pay e. jean carroll $83.3 million dollars for defaming her over her entirely legitimate claims of sexual assault. but nikki haley still does not seem interested. this is her short statement. donald trump wants to be the presumptive nominee, and we're talking about 83 million in damages. we're not talking about fixing the border. we're not talking about tackling inflation. america can do better than donald trump and joe biden. joining me now is mark leibovich, staff writer for the atlantic. mark, i marvel at the statement from nikki haley. first of all, joe biden has not

been ordered to pay $83.3 million dollars in damages to someone he has defamed, and nikki haley somehow skirts saying anything about the issue at hand, which is the verdict handed down today. how long can she keep doing this? >> that was definitely a lame answer. there's no question about it. and there's also the answer of someone who does not want to be talking about trump's legal issues. although, i will say that the more recent statement that you just showed it is sort of a sharper contrast than nikki haley has shown to this point. her framing of this is that $83 million, these distractions -- they are kind of abstract. but these are things that donald trump is focused on, rather than the border, rather than the economy, things like that. so, in some sense, she is trying to use it to kind of lump him with a larger political distractions, the madness that she is running against on the whole, about being with biden which,

obviously, as you mentioned, doesn't really fit here. but that is the kind of status quo that nikki haley is kind of running against. and essentially that is her way around this. but clearly, as that clip showed, this is not a topic she wants to be talking about and probably, i assume, this will be her m o going forward. >> and mark, just in the annals of political history, when was the time it was a two-person race for a nomination, and the opponent is literally gifted this massive verdict that is a searing indictment of the other candidates character, and doesn't touch it with a ten foot pole? can you think of any analog in recent american history? >> no, not at all. look, she has a clean shot at donald trump. i guess the analog that she is looking at is that the likes of chris christie and others who have more frontally attack donald trump have gotten nowhere with this, and maybe there is another way to sort of

finagle the somehow. i don't see it. but she -- i guess you have to give her some grudging credit. she is still alive, she still in the race. basically, no one else is. and i don't know how you sort of go on offense from here, though. i think she has it in. her i think she clearly seems -- i mean, she has the kind of, i guess, aptitude, and the athleticism, politically, to maybe make a case against him. but she just has not been willing to do. it but it's frustrating. it certainly unsatisfying. it does make you wonder -- nikki haley is actually going to go at all trump in a way that makes impossible for her to win, or if she's just playing for second place, the vice presidency, something like that. >> i marvel at the biden of it all. right? invoking joe biden's name on a night like this. and this is also trump's -- trump has had many sort of semi-statements about this. but this one really stuck out to me. absolutely ridiculous, he writes on truth social. i fully disagree with both

verdicts, and will be appealing this whole biden directed witch hunt focused on me and the republican party. our legal system is out of control, and being used as a political weapon, first amendment, it's a, treads are. this is not america. biden directed witch hunt, mark. i know if a plate break, somehow, it is joe biden's fault. but this seems like a stretch, even for people who are inclined to side with donald trump in. this that somehow e. jean carroll is part of a biden directed which aren't. >> it is, and persecution, victimization, this is central to donald trump's message. this is central to how, why a lot of people who support him are identified with him. it's kind of a warped dynamic going. on but it continues. and they are going to buy the notion, the absurd notion that this is a witch hunt, and it is also a way to lump in joe biden in both sides this thing somehow. but ultimately, look. this is something that donald

trump supporters do want to hear. they are open to. it he can do no wrong. it's sort of goes to the cult argument. frankly, it is really depressing. but it is something that has worked for him, and it seems to be the only place he can go at this point. >> well, maybe with rank-and-file trump supporters. but i do wonder you think this at all reminds donors, who trump has recently consolidated, along with endorsements from elected republicans, whether it reminds them of the nightmare, and the unending chaos that marked the donald trump years. robert costa, the intrepid reporter, tweets tonight, e. jean carroll's case -- the jury order for trump to pay $83.3 comes as many of the nation's biggest gop donors are preparing to meet at palm beach in the american opportunity alliance gathering, where the path ahead is on the agenda, and just days before haley's donors host a major fund-raiser in new york city. i will sit haley aside. but i do wonder whether you think these trials have existed and abstract. and tonight, the piper -- it's about paying the piper. i'm really mixing my metaphors

here. but whether this is kind of the beginning of an alarm ringing, and given the fact that there is more of this on the horizon in the coming months. >> i do think the idea that donald trump is never held accountable, and so, fourth is not true. because i think that every time something like this happens, it does not just alienate donors. it does not just alienate the people who endorsed him. it is not only reminder for voters, also. it is just -- there is a very, very large and growing critical mass of people who do not want to vote for this guy. and just words like liable for sexual assault are not something you want next to your name for the next nine, ten months. that is not going to help him. and look, there has been a cost to him politically, and for as much as we like to revel in the fact that he has is never seemingly hurt by this, i think the opposite is true. i think is numbers of when this out. and it is not going to help him

going forward. and it certainly makes people forward, who are trying to rally people around the republican nominee in the next few months. >> yeah. and i am sure there is some concern that money is fungible. so, to some of their donor dollars and up paying off e. jean carroll? i mean, the questions abound. to be a trump supporter and donor. many questions. mark leibovich, thank you for your time this friday night. >> thanks, alex. coming, up more of my interview with california governor gavin newsom, including whether he is running a shadow campaign for the american presidency. that is next. ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand.

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talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. to protect the rule of law, or to build affordable housing, or write california's patients bill of rights. but i know adam through the big brother program. we've been brothers since i was seven. he stood by my side as i graduated from yale, and i stood by his side when he married eve, the love of his life. i'm a little biased, but take it from adam's little brother. he'll make us all proud as california senator. i'm adam schiff and i approve this message. not just any whiteboard... ...katie porter's whiteboard is one way she's: [news anchor] ...often seen grilling top executives of banks, big pharma, even top administration officials. katie porter. never taken corporate pac money - never will. leading the fight to ban congressional stock trading. and the only democrat who opposed wasteful “earmarks” that fund politicians' pet projects. katie porter. focused on your challenges - from lowering housing costs to fighting climate change. shake up the senate - with democrat katie porter. >> last spring, california i'm katie porter and i approve this message.

governor gavin newsom went to florida to meet with students from new college, the school that has become the focus of governor ron desantis is anti-woke crusade. newsom then traveled thousands of miles, again, outside of his own state, to meet with voters in alabama and mississippi and utah. in december governor newsom went to georgia to debate governor ron desantis on fox news. yesterday he was in south carolina talking to young voters at morris college, and historically black college. and now governor newsom is hitting the campaign trail in nevada, ahead of early primary voting in that state. if you notice, this is a tour

of red states, and it is one that the governor is doing is an emissary of the biden campaign, to tell voters what is at stake in november. yesterday, while in south carolina, i had the opportunity to speak to governor newsom about that work. we talked about the upcoming election, about his party's messaging, and about reproductive rights. we also talked about donald trump's dominance over the republican party, and the way trump is running his campaign this time around. it's clear, though, that his ground game is way better than it was in previous elections. >> a better campaign. >> they've racked up the endorsements, they have a stranglehold on the republican party, they have a get out the vote campaign that is, you know, unmatched. especially in the republican primary. is that cause for trepidation? >> no, but look we've got? we've outperform in every single election. outperformed, a significant margins in every election, 2022,

23, and not just of the national stage. look at some of these mayors races in jacksonville, collateral spring's. in every election democrats are winning. it's one of the great winning streaks in modern american politics, particularly for an incumbent president, and i think dobbs has a profound impact in terms of that framework and that reality out on the streets. >> the latest got 64,000 women and girls got pregnant from rape in states where there are abortion bans. >> texas was the worst. >> you're the governor of a large state. do you think these republican governors who oversaw these bands either didn't care or didn't understand? >> they can't they don't care. they really don't. >> it's republican women who get pregnant. >> it's disgraceful. it's sick. here's a problem with the republican party. they are always getting in trouble when they actually get what they want. six week bands before you even know your pregnant, before you can even get a doctors appointment? criminalizing young kids that were raped for trying to travel?

so that they can have a life and the freedom to decide for themselves? versus guys like tim scott and lindsey graham, who have to go through an ask permission? it's a serious moment. and coming after contraception as well, that's how extreme they are. that's not me idly saying it. it's a fact. >> i know you have strong feelings on this. >> a lot of things, i think. >> yeah, right? a sore subject here. a lot of people will recognize what donald trump did to the supreme court to make the overturning of roe possible. however, if he is asked about it, and on national television, he lies about it is. he obvious cates. he's very mushy. it is working with a certain section. in new hampshire 80% of republicans wanted a national abortion ban and 44% of those who don't. similar kind of thing in iowa. he is getting a pass on this.

so short of saying, over and over again, he's responsible, how do you further convince potentially skeptical voters that this guy stands for the end of choices we know? it >> over and over again we've got to flood the zone with that message. he can't be allowed to get away with it. he can't. we've got to go aggressively. >> i'm not here to argue and trump's favor. i'm just saying, trump people don't believe he's in favor or national borscht bail, maybe because they remember his position being pro-choice on the 90. >> in a nanosecond he would sign that bill, period, full stop. >> i'm not arguing against that. we just have to define the opposition and create that contrast. but we have to flood the zone to remind people of his record, and the reality that we are living here today and the fear that women and girls had in this country because of the conditions that he directly created through his actions. that is our job.

that is my job. it's our collective job. joe biden and kamala harris's exclusive job, no, it's what a campaign is about. >> you know what it is like to run a big campaign unasked governors for money. if you're a haley donor, are you looking and saying yes, i'm not to give you a couple more million dollars? >> trump tweets if you do that -- >> you won't be invited to maga camp. >> it's thuggery. but it's so predictable. >> or schoolyard petulance. >> there's a childishness to it. but i really believe this, he is a weakness masquerading as strength, donald trump. in a primary i who said it, he's a t-rex. he will devour you or you mate with him. and the general election i think he's the most flawed candidate in the lifetime. he is damaged goods. he is not as entertaining as he once was. he's more unhinged that he ever was, more extreme. obviously more dangerous across the spectrum of issues. and if his entire campaign is

around campaign stops in the courtroom, in general i don't think that will junta this year. i think he's weaker than he was in 2016. he's a force to be whack and. with i think it's a faded compliant accompli that he was going to be a nominee. that being said, he is a very vulnerable candidate. >> i do have to ask you, we hear from the the polling anecdotally that one of the issues the biden administration has lost a lot of confidence, young voters, voters of color, voters in places like detroit, very upset about his position on gaza. you have watched this from afar from afar. i do you think they made a miss step there? >> i watched a close-up as well. i went to israel. with the president prime minister, saw those videos, those unredacted videos that i can't get out of my ahead in the atrocities of hamas. i applaud the presidents

clarity and conviction as relates to hamas being a terrorist organization that needs to be eliminated. that said, i'm also, and this is me speaking, not on behalf of anyone else, i'm a father of four, and you can't watch these images of what is happening in gaza without your heartbreaking. i mean it. and with respect to beating netanyahu, i met, with for him to double down on stupid by somehow suggesting that two state solution is not the solution, that's preferable, it is a huge tactical mistake. not political, situationally in the united states of america, but globally. it has profound, i believe, consequences. and i appreciate president bidens clarity and conviction on that. i also appreciate his clarity and conviction trying to end this war. beyond the situational rhetoric around a cease-fire, and the war and rebuild gaza and allow the autonomy and freedom that the palestinians deserve. >> you are an excellent

emissary, in terms of articulation, all of the things that need unifor good campaigner, even though you're not running for president yourself. >> no chance. who in their mind would want to run when you have someone of such a steam as our incumbent president of the united states with a record of accomplishments and a man of character, a man of decency. i'm old school. talk about loyalty. i'll go to the ends of the earth for this guy. i really would. i'm not making that up. >> there you have it. governor gavin newsom is not trying to take president biden 's place on the ballot. this november. someone please tell fox news. still ahead tonight, the lone star state will not go it alone. several republican leaders, including governors, say they have greg abbott's back as texas continues to defy the federal government and the supreme court over the border. some republicans are now invoking the civil war. that is next.

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truckers, military members, long forsman members, and veterans to head to the southern border. yes. another right-wing trucker convoy is mobilizing, but this one refers to herself as an army of guide and recruits members by demonizing brown people's violent criminals who are invading america. this convoy is headed to the southern border amid realize standoff between republican texas governor greg abbott and the u.s. federal government. for the past few weeks, the texas national guard has commandeered 47 acres along the u.s.-mexico border in a city called eagle pass. under governor abbott's order, is they cover this area and razor wire, worsening what is already a treacherous journey for people seeking shelter in america. this month, for migrants, including children, have drowned in the rio grande near that razor wire. and now these deaths, even after them, abbott's brazenly

defying the federal government in order to keep the wire up and keep the feds out. governor abbott's direction, the texas national guard has barred the federal government from accessing that section of the border eagle pass which is the federal government's jurisdiction. which makes what texas is doing here wildly against the law. and this week the supreme court made that plain as day. under the court ruled against governor abbott in the standoff, ordering texas to allow federal border agents access to that part of the border, but governor abbott remains defiant. he says that because he has declared an invasion, he has the right to ignore the supreme court. now, defying the federal government might seem like a constitutional crisis, but don't just take my word for it. >> we are edging very closely to a civil war. i'm serious. a true constitutional crisis

happening in our border. >> that supreme court decision that was made has now put the federal government at war with the state of texas. >> i say this respectfully, i say it with the fear of what i am saying, i do not want to live in a post constitutional world. but this court is pushing our hand. and the court needs to know that. >> it feels like almost like a soft civil war. >> a soft civil war and a constitutional crisis of governor abbott's creation, one republicans at large are cheering on. 25 out of our countries 26 republican governors are publicly supporting governor abbott's defiance. former president trump is urging republican governors to send members of their own national guards down to texas to stand with governor abbott, which at least one governor says he will do. whether or not we are actually close to a civil war here i do think the civil war is irrelevant comparison. nothing that abbott and trump and all these other republican officials are willing to cause

a constitutional crisis over, is their ability to persecute and prosecute brown people. we will talk to former secretary of sanitary julián castro about this standoff and what it may mean for this country. coming up next.

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wireless that works for you. >> in the statement released it's not just possible, it's happening. this week, texas governor greg abbott opened with this line. the federal government has broken the compound between the united states in the states. those words have since been cosigned by 25 republican governors in a joint statement supporting governor abbott's ongoing standoff with the u.s. federal government over control of the border. those words also egging language used by secessionists in 1861 as they called for the civil war. and yet they were still the words governor abbott used to explain his defiance of the supreme court order requiring texas to let the federal government with job. this is just governor abbott's latest provocation and it

appears to be working. joining me now, julián castro, former urban housing and development -- and former mayor of san antonio. secretary castro, thank you for being here. there's a lot of breaking news in and around the story, but first let me get your reaction to the idea that republican governors are stoking the plane the flames of potential civil war at the border whether they understand that the originals of civil war was about humanizing brown people, which seems to be what they're doing in the situation as well. >> this is part of the ultimate are irony here. they're pretending is though the federal government is overstepping the constitution when they are the ones over to overstepping the constitution time and again. course up and down the federal judiciary has said the constitutional powers of the federal government on immigration enforcement and not state governments. on top of that, governor abbott is yelling to president biden, do your job, do you job on immigration, and at the same time blocking him from being

able to do his job. so it's all of that and then it's also this toxic group of white nationalism, of anti federal government is one that we also have a very long strand of in the united states, and, in addition to all of that, this religious zealotry, the language laced with religious references. this is dangerous. . we're in a point in the country where we need more voices that are even louder, that are appealing to our better angels, and we also need strong institutions, especially our judiciary, to be able to push back against this. >> when you talk about voices appealing to our better angels, the news we have tonight is the president biden has vowed to shut down the border in the senate passes the immigration deal that has been negotiated behind closed doors. mitch mcconnell said that they weren't gonna play ball in that

because donald trump doesn't want to, deal doesn't want this problem fixed in an or an election year. nonetheless, biden's rhetoric here is a remarkable turn for our democratic president and i wonder how you think it informs the entrance of better angels into this conversation. >> this is a very delicate balance for president that biden. politically, what he's trying to do is assuage the fears that created by the fearmongering and this tridents of people like greg abbott and ron desantis and others, but at the same time, hold true to the values of a country that has always said that this is a nation of immigrants. and more than that, that we are going to be a beacon of hope and we're going to stand out among nations in the world in treating people compassionately and humanely if they show up at our doorstep asking for help in a time of crisis in emergency in their lives.

and that's what these folks are asking for. we are seeking the same better life that people have four generations. so he needs to be able to show that he's doing something to address the very serious situation at the border, but also not let go of, not dismiss, throw out, the values that define us as a country. i think ultimately the distinguish what democrats should be from what republicans are today, this fearmongering, white nationalist anti-immigrant party. we don't need to go down that road. and he needs to strike that balance very carefully. >> i just something that concerns me is that republicans feel like they're going to win on this, that the stocking of white nationalism and xenophobia seems to be working for them, to the degree that they want to keep the issue out there in an election. >> and part of this, alex, and we've talked about this before, is that there is no pushback on

our values. there's no pushback, i think, from the president or democrats. not just playing defense. they ought to be out there talking about that we can do both of these things, that we can have a secure border, that we can address making sure that people are going to be treated humanely as well. we don't have to give up our values. we don't have to give up who we are, who we want to be, as we address the issues of border security. and i feel like what the party has been doing is mostly just ceding that argument to republicans so that the american people in the balance of what they hear they think oh, there really is an invasion, everyone coming across the border is dangerous, we need to stop this. they buy into that republican argument because there's no positive argument on the other side. >> these are women and children and fathers and mothers and sisters. julián castro, thank you as