and defaming her after she told her story publicly, in 2019. that's a total of 88 point $3 million between carols to civil suits against trump. but in her closing argument, roberta kaplan, the lawyer who prented carroll in both cases, spoke about how that firsthand, that first trial had basically no effect on curbing trump's behavior. quote, typically, when someone is held liable in court for spreading false and defamatory lies, they stop. in this country, our justice system, that is how it's supposed to work. even if you don't like a jury's decision, you are supposed to follow it. osare the rules. this doesn't depend on your politics, it doesn't depend on how you vote for whether you support a particular policy or particular party. we all have to follow the law. donald trump, however, access if these rules and laws just don't apply to him. after the prior jury found his attacks on miss carroll were false and defamatory last year, did he respect the jury verdict? no. not at all. not even for 24 hours, and

quote. for nearly a decade, we have watched donald trump destroy our political institutions and make a mockery of the constitution. he has breached every tradition and norm, even the peaceful transfer of power that's kept this country stable from one generation to another. from one administration to the next. you've done it all, with almost a complete impunity, because the republican party has protected him from experiencing and the real consequences for his actions. it's still a question in the back of some people's minds about whether a trump might barrel through the justice system, the same way candidate trump has barreled through and destroyed our politics. trump continued to attack and spread lies about carroll after the first trial, and continue to do so throughout his second which begs the question. can any sort of penalty or punishment actually stop him? as roberta pl said in the jury during closing arguments, quote, this trial is also about something much more profound. whether the rules to apply to everyone else, to you, to me, to miss carroll, to your family or friends, whether it may also

apply to donald trump. caroline suits are only the beginning. judge arthur engoron, who is presiding over the civil fraud trial against trump and his business, is expected to issue penalties in that case by the end of the month. new york attorney general letitia james, who brought the lawsuit, has asked the judge to consider penalizing trump upwards of $370 million, in addition to permanently barring him from ever running a company in new york state again, which would be a huge blow to his companies. then, of, course there's trump for pending criminal trials. the first of which could begin as early as march. trump's legal situation has been conversation fodder for so long, but, now it's becoming very real, with very serious consequences. and yet, the republican party is almost certain to put him up as its presidential nominee, and forced the electorate to reckon with possibly electing a man who's been impeached twice, found liable for sexual abuse, defamation, and fraud, and could even be convicted felon by the time november rolls around. joining me now is jennifer

rubin. an opinion writer for the washington post and an msnbc political analyst and author of the book resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. also with us the standings in all, as he is a criminal defense attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. good morning to you both. thank you for being with us. jennifer, let's start with you on this. this is a remarkable penalty for donald trump. the lawyer, roberta kaplan, had told the jury, asked buttery, to give him a penalty that would be meaningful, that would actually stop donald trump. this is a meaningful penalty. it remains to be seen whether anything will stop donald trump from doing the things he keeps on getting in trouble for. >> we've got a little clue yesterday. he, of course, railed about the judgments, but very interesting way, he said nothing about carroll herself. so perhaps, somewhere in that reptilian brain, he has figured out that it's not in his interest to continue to do the same thing after, one after the other. i have to say that roberta kaplan's closing was brilliant.

because what she is doing is she is providing a theme that really ties in all of his civil cases, all of his criminal cases, which his refusal to abide by the law, his lawlessness, his presumption, that's a similar theme that we're going to see. criminal cases, and in the other civil cases. remember, there's also a civil case stemming from january 6th brought by the police officers on capitol hill, some members of congress. so, i think getting the jury to figure out that donald trump is saying he's better than you and me, he thinks he can get away with it, you are the only one to stop him, is really a very successful legal strategy, and i would hope other prosecutors and other lawyers of the future are going to use it, because it works. >> it's definitely worth reading the transcript of the closing argument from roberta kaplan. danny, the question that remains, there's a lot of sort of political satisfaction from people who think donald trump is finally being held to

account for something and facing actual consequences, but let's talk about the actual process here. he is expected to appeal. how does the appeal process play out in a situation like this, and how does the money play out in a situation like this? >> in federal court, there's an on -- 14 days today from that date of the judgment. but after that, you have to normally post what's called the superseding peace bond. it's really simply a guarantee the amount of cash that you have ordered to pay, you have to put it in escrow, so that your years from that, when you're appears are over, you have been frittered away that money and you're able to pay that judgment. so, in theory, trump will have to post a bond for that entire amount. however, in practice, there are exceptions to this rule, and trump will almost certainly apply for a state. he will file a motion. some motions can stay this requirement for the bonds. you can ask the court directly for a stay. one of the things the court will consider as a factor is his likelihood of success on

appeal. so, that will come into play. trump will have to make the affirmative efforts, however, to get that exception to this superseding husband. in other words, it's simply putting the money in escrow, and of course, the plaintiffs i doubt are going to be very agreeable. they're not going to agree to just allow him to appeal without posting that bond. so, the burden is on trump at this point and the clock is ticking. 14 days. >> jen, you've written a book about women and donald trump, and the role that women from across the political spectrum played in blocking donald trump's reelection. it's no secret donald trump's appeal and support among women's low. his attacks against e. jean carroll, his attacks against nikki haley, are not going to help that. notice the fact that he was instrumental in the fall of roe v. wade. that jury's decision in this second e. jean carroll case seems like it was meant to send a bit of a message. how do you think this is going to be perceived by the general public and by women? >> i would hope that not only

women, but men, have paused before they nominate for the presidency or certainly, elect someone who is an adjudicated rapist and liar, but that was what the first trial was about. so, you would certainly hope that that would penetrates. but i think they are really making a point to the public at large. that this person doesn't think he is responsible. doesn't think he has to follow the rules. thinks he can abuse you add in particular, abuse women. and that's simply not going to fly. by the way, the bond he has to post in the first trial, he didn't even post bond. he just posted the entire amount in escrow, $5 million. it didn't help he was going to get an appeal in that case. so, i think he's going to have to post the entire amount. that's 83 point $3 million, or make a payment on the bonds, which is usually that he's out of pocket, about 10%. so, i wouldn't count him on getting away scot-free from

this very large fee. >> danny, i've been short of asking everyone i know about this question, there's not a lot of precedent on this one. it's been well documented that donald trump uses campaign donations to help pay for legal fees for himself, as well as for other people in his orbit. can that pool of money from fund-raisers and campaign donations be used to pay for these penalties? can he fund-raise somehow, and use money from the public to pay or his supporters to pay the penalties? >> the rules have been in flux over the last few years, but you're exactly right. we are in unprecedented territory, where you have a political candidate who has massive judgments and possibly, eventually criminal court finds. and he may be using those same funds to pay off those fines and or judgments. so, that could be problematic. legally aside, it could be a problem with donors, who maybe this is not where they want their funds earmarked to go. but that is all locked into the complexities of this pack money,

of donor money, and how it's used. as i said, the rules have changed quite a bit over the last few years, and where in a kind of gray area, but i am imagine that if donald trump moved to use a substantial amount of these donated funds to pay money judgments, you may see either some backlash from donors. he may also some backlash from legislators, who would probably want to close up this loophole. because that is a little problematic. >> jen, one of the things that you have just written about, the polls seem to suggest nothing could break donald trump's hold on his base. the reason polls of seeing trump pulling ahead of joe biden in hypothetical head to head matchups, you warn that people shouldn't take this at face value. and your latest newsletter, you write that trump's weaknesses are quote, overwhelming. tell me about these weaknesses, and how you think they play out? >> well, if you look just beginning in new hampshire, and

you look at his votes among independents, it was lousy. and that suggests that although he has a hold on the core base of the republican party, the kind of people that turn out in the primary, that when he gets beyond that, he may have picked up hill battle. and that makes sense, after all. he keeps doubling down, doubling down on the red meat his base loves, but every time he does, that he turns people off. and those other people are the people he normally needs to put together a coalition to get elected president. there's also a lot of other factors out there. frankly, roe v. wade is a wait around his neck, and awaits around all republicans. since david, there has been a surge of democratic victories in the regular sort of referendum votes. they did better in 2022, largely by relying on their opposition to dobbs and the horror of these abortion bans. the abortion bans are becoming

very real now. we just had a study come out that 65,000 rape victims were forced to take their rapists children to term, because of these bands. that's going to get a lot of attention. and beyond that, i think there is some recognition, finally, that the economy is pretty good. and it's been good for a while, of course, but you wouldn't know it from some of the coverage. now, i think that has shifted quite dramatically. and biden is getting some recognition. the economy will be struggling, unemployment is low, we now have 2% inflation for the last six months. which is the target, as you know. manufacturing has revived. so, i think there's a lot of things that we don't normally credit with for president biden, and the last is that it's becoming pretty apparent, even to republicans, that he's kind of screw-less. that he -- with his words, that he gets

confused. that's what nikki haley has been exploiting, finally, finally. it's not going to help her with the republican base, but it sure is going to provide a lot of material for president biden. in the general election. so, i think there's a lot of factors out there, and if we pause and say well, these early polls really aren't predictive, let's look at the fundamentals of the election, i think you come away with a slightly different impression. >> in our business, we call that a tease. i'm actually going to be talking about the biden economy in the next segment, specifically what you said. so, thank you for that, my friend. jennifer rubin is in the opinion writer for the washington post and the author of the book, resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. danny cevallos, our old friend, is a criminal defense attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. and, as jen said, one of trump's 2024 tactics is attacking biden's economy. i'm going to explain, once again, why that's just another one of donald trump's dangerous lies. just about two years after russia's full scale invasion, ukraine is holding on, but that will become more difficult to do without additional u.s.

military aid. i'll speak with democratic congressman jay auchincloss about what comes next. plus, today's velshi banned book club beecher is both a story of time travel and a blistering commentary on the repercussions of slavery. a story like this could only come from the mind of the remarkable octavia butler. 20 years after her death, butler's influence is everywhere. in art, in music, and of course, in literature.

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we had the best unemployment rates ever, and they were real unemployment, the like you have today when nobody is working and they consider it to be -- it's a whole different thing. >> when the former president was in office, he made a habit of exaggerating his economic achievements, a playbook that dates back to 2016. but when he is not in the white house, like right now, he engages in fearmongering by telling voters how bad the economy is, hoping that is top of mind when we get into the ballot box. just a day before he made those

remarks, he insisted that the biden economy is quote, collapsing into a cesspool. but for facts sake, it is just not true. not only the current unemployment rate of 3.7% a very real figure reported by the u.s. labor department, but is also an indicated that the american economy is standing strong under president biden. let's have a look at the stock market performance. it's not my favorite indicator, says the benefits of a strong stock market can be unbalanced across the population, but it is a trump favorite. we continue to see the stock market setting records, by the way. just last, week the dow closed above the 38,000 mark for the first time in history. and while the stock market did rise rapidly during trump's presidency, until covid hit it has resumed its ascent under joe biden. then there is the gdp, or the gross domestic product, which is the broadest measure of all of the goods in services produced in the united states. for 2023 as a whole, gdp rose two and a half percent from the

previous year, which is a much better number th economists predicted at this time last year when the possibility of a recession haund americans. here is a number that i prefer. job creation. inhe first three years of donald trump'serm, again, before covid hit, because if you had covid, it makes donald trump's term seem a lot worse. in the firsthree years of donald trump's term, he added an average of 195,000 jobs per month. butccording to the bureau of labor statistics, the economy adds a monthly average of 387,000 jobs with biden in office. roughly 14 million jobs created in total. now that was the number of jobs created, now let's look at the unemployment rate. again, and i bridal love, because the denominator changes a month to month, but people like to talk about the unemployment rate, and so i will. when trump was an office prequel that, the unemployment rate fell to 3.5%. the lowest level in 50 years at the time. when did biden early last, year the unemployment rate inched

even lower to 3.4%. wages are also up, now outpacing inflation. take a look at this. wages is the green line, inflation is the blue line. you can see for sometime, inflation was running above wage growth, but now wage growth at 4.1% in 2023 compared to inflation, which stands at 3.4%. because of these wage increases, workers are earning more money faster than prices are rising, making the sting of inflation a little easier to handle. it is worth reminding everyone that president biden does not control inflation, just like president trump isn't the one who controlled inflation when it was going down. when inflation hit its recent highs in america, it was up all around the world. american inflation was comparatively lower than in similar countries like western europe. but the biden economy has been strong. strong job growth, historically low unemployment, rising wages, growing consumer confidence, strong economic growth, lower inflation, and stock market that is breaking records.

there's no evidence to suggest that we would see a stronger economy if donald trump returned to the white house, and anyone who says the economy is in bad shape right now is an informed or they are gaslighting you up. all right, matt every economy is doing as well as the united states right now. we thought inflation was bad in america. this week, turkey announced that in december, it's inflation hit a whopping 64.8% year over year, and that is just one of turkey's big announcements in the last few days. the other one affects the safety of the world. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: marnina learned that most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away.

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you may know adam schiff's work to protect the rule of law, you could stay undetectable with fewer medicines. or to build affordable housing, or write california's patients bill of rights. but i know adam through the big brother program. we've been brothers since i was seven. he stood by my side as i graduated from yale, and i stood by his side when he married eve, the love of his life. i'm a little biased, but take it from adam's little brother. he'll make us all proud as california senator. i'm adam schiff and i approve this message. meet the jennifers. jen x. jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app.

jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. the biden administration announced late yesterday that has approved and notified congress of the 23 billion dollar le of f-16 fighter jets to turkey. that mes days after turkey's parliament voted in favor of sweden joining nato. turkey had been delaying signing off on sweden's major

membership with the nato alliance accusing sweden of being more lenient towards groups that turkish government sees as security threats. but now with turkey's approval, hungry is the last remaining holdouts of nato's 31 member nations. unanimous approval is needed for a country to join nato. wild appears that hungriest autocratic leader viktor orban and his government want to squeeze every last bit of leverage out of being the st holdout, make no mistake, hungary does support sweden's membership to to. as you can see here, orban even tweetesaid this week. right now nato is bigger and stronger than ever, having added finland last year and being on the verge of adding sweden. two historical independent nordic nations. it's a remarkable turn of events. two years ago, nato was still recovering from the damage done by donald trump, and russia was on the verge of invading ukraine with one of vladimir putin's many stated reasons of doing so to prevent expansion of nato. at the time, one of the biggest fears was that ukraine and its military were not up to the job

defending itself, and that the cotrwould be quickly overrun by the russian troops. putin had pland for a quick invasion and so had much of the west. the u.s. government even discuss plans for president volodymyr zelenskyy to rule in exile, possibly from poland, even after russia invaded if it came to that. that's for about two years. ukraine has not won the war, but more importantly, it hasn't lost the war, nearly everyone except the ukrainians thought they would. i want to stand ukrainians for nearly two and half years of intense war is that they possess the skills, the fortitude, and the bravery needed to defend themselves and their land even when they are supposedly outmatched. that along with massive amounts of foreign military aid, which the ukrainians have proven to be highly skilled at using, especially the advanced weaponry from the united states. but all of that may be about to change eye. with ukrainian supplies now running low, republicans in congress have been calling a

much-needed ukrainian aid for months, tying it to additional funds for domestic border security. however, with the gop increasingly taking its cues from donald trump, their tune is changing. that border deal now faces potential collapse after donald trump called it, quote, meaningless, leaving the future of ukraine aid in doubt. after the break, i will discuss all of this with the u.s. marine veteran and democratic representative jake auchincloss of massachusetts. chusetts thanks to always ultra thins... with rapiddry technology... that absorbs two times faster. hellooo clean and comfortable. always. fear no gush. joining me now is the

democratic representative jake auchincloss of massachusetts. is a veteran of the united states marines, having served in afghanistan and panama. representative, good to see you, thank you for being with us this morning. >> good morning, thank you for having me on. >> the world is a little upside down. you have democrats trying to get this funding to ukraine. you have republicans blocking

it, ostensibly for some other reason. even had volodymyr zelenskyy come to congress and say, i totally get it, you've got domestic, political issues, i'm not trying to get involved in that and you guys should sort that out however you want. but could you please not let us lose the war because of them? it seems to have fallen on deaf ears in congress. >> for sure, and let's zero in on ukraine here. it is the best return on investment and americas 21st century national security policy. for less than americans spend on softer inks every year, the united states has made nato stronger, it has made russia weaker, it has sent a message not just to the kremlin, but to beijing in toronto that the united states is going to defend the rule space order and stay with freedom and democracy, and we have done so with no american lives lost and keeping ukraine in this fight for another year when the expert said they wouldn't last for more than a couple of weeks. but now we have republicans who would rather support donald

trump's campaign for dictator then volodymyr zelenskyy's campaign for freedom, and that has become the bottleneck in congress. and that is why, ali, back in september when they offered a continuing resolution, i said it was going to be the last time that a bill that republicans from their -- unless they have a concrete plan for ukraine, and i've stood by my word. the next two continuing resolutions, i voted against because democrats should not be bailing republicans out of their dysfunction unless americans get a win in return. ukraine has a win, this tax deal is a win, border security is a win, the republicans aren't moving on any of it. >> yeah, i think this is an important point you make, because you are think one of only two democrats who voted against the continuing resolution to make the point that this is really important. as a military person, you also understand as relates to ukraine, and i think it's really important you made the point about the return on investment that we are getting. there are no u.s. troops there,

no is ukraine asking for any, and yet we are holding a major adversary at bay and sending a message to other potential adversaries, but the issue here is, if you lose the military advantage, if ukraine loses the military advantage, it becomes much harder to change your decision later on. deciding next november or december, hey, we would like to get back in the game and give ukraine the edge. >> you can't win a lost war. we need to support ukraine now as they still have a lions heart to fight, as they still have a strong leader, and they are asking for the material in the munitions that they need to gain secure access to the black sea, to be able to create their own military industrial complex so that they can sustain their fight, and for security guarantees that will allow them to fully join the west and ultimately the european union, which is their aspiration as a people. >> one of the things about

russia and vladimir putin, as he's president -- just the prime minister of the country for a very very long time. he has a long time on the horizon, and if this concept of waiting america outworks, waiting america out until the new administration works, that is a message to china, to north korea, to iran, to other adversaries that america does not stick to its guns. it doesn't stay with its commitments. that is going to affect us not just with our nato allies and the other 20 countries that are with us in ukraine, but really possibly more importantly with the message that it sends to our adversaries. >> that is so right on. but amid putin has a two-word strategy, trump winds. in the long run, he cannot win this war with facing unified western resolve. we can defeat vladimir putin, and vladimir putin knows that, which is why he is resting his military strategy around donald trump cutting and running from

his allies, and it's not just a kremlin who knows that, it is beijing to. i recently met with the new taiwanese ambassador to the united states, and he made clear that in a recent taiwanese election, the peoples republic was pumping and disinformation to the taiwanese island, particularly young people, saying that you can't count on the united states. it is a fair weather friend, wanted to go towards reunification and we will protect you instead. so this message is not just a european message, it's not just a ukrainian message, it is an indo-pacific message as well that is going to define much of the great power competition of the 21st century. does the united states still have the resolve to defend its values the world over, and donald trump does not, joe biden does, and that is part of what is at stake in this election. >> it would be interesting if it was a decision to not have that resolved, what we are seeing is just a dysfunction leading to an accidental lack of resolve, and that would be a disaster if we i accident fell into a weak position in the

world. congressman, good to see you, thank you for joining. us >> you too. >> democratic representative jake auchincloss of massachusetts. up next, we have the velshi banned book club. today is one of those movies where the book, the author, in the riding are equally important. we're looking at octavia butler's remarkable legacy and hurt magnum opus, kindred. butler and her science fiction catalog have without question change the culture of this country. 20 years after her death, it is time every single american knows her name and reads her words. words. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long

but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. - i got the cabin for three days. it's gonna be sweet! for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. what? i'm 12 hours short. - have a fun weekend. - ♪ unnecessary action hero! unnecessary. ♪ - was that necessary? - no. neither is a blown weekend. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you can fix problems before they become problems. - hmm! get paycom and make the unnecessary, unnecessary. - see you down the line. in 1988, octavia butler

opened her journal to a fresh page and wrote down a list of aspirations, quote, i will buy a beautiful home in a excellent neighborhood, i will help support black youngsters broaden their horizons. i will travel whenever and wherever in the world that i choose. my books will be read by millions of people. so be it, see to it, and quote. this is what young people these days would call manifestation. you think of something that you want in your life, you visualize it, you ask the universe for. it decades before this popular kind of written manifestation would dominate social media wellness articles, butler would write her reality into existence. that's remarkable >> -- defines her writing and her career before the word afrofuturism even existed.

butler was writing about it. before climate change was considered a crisis, but there is writing about it. before our country threatened to slide towards autocracy, butler was writing about it. butler was raised by a single, widowed mother in the poor section of pasadena, california. she was tall for courage, extremely shy, slightly dyslexic, and always, always reading. she began writing stories as a child, encouraged by her mother, who splurged on a typewriter. after happening upon a low budget science fiction movie called devil girl from mars, butler had a revelation. someone got paid to write that movie, and she knew she could write it better. as an adult, she supported herself with audits of throughout los angeles and wrote her stories at two in the morning. but they would go on to be the first science fiction writer to win a mcarthur genius grant, and the first black woman to win both coveted nebula and who go awards. her books have in fact been

read by millions. nearly 20 years after her death, octavia butler israeli considered one of the most important voices of the past 100 years. her cultural influence is immense and cannot be overstated. from beyoncé's renaissance tour to janelle monáe's artistic catalog, but our greatest influence is of course in literature. butler has without question expanded literary convention for both black and science fiction literature. her magnum opus kindred is today's velshi banned book club feature. kindred follows dana, a 26-year-old black writer, as she is ripped back and forth between 1976os angeles and antebellum maryland against her will. the reader learns the end result of the time travel before much else, quote, i lost an arm on my last trip home. my left arm. and i lost about a year of my life in much of the comfort and security i had not valued until it was gone, end quote. soon, data discovers that she is forced back in time when her direct ancestor rufus whelan,

the spoiled, white son of a cruel slave owning man who is in danger. dana and her white has been kevin spent more and more time in the year 1815. then it becomes ingratiated in the community of enslaved people on the plantation, befriending, nurturing, and eventually betraying. soon, they realize that she cannot exist in the present without the children from enslaved woman alice greenwood and rufus. alison rufus's relationship is not a love story. rufus forces allies into brutal sex slavery. eventually resulting in multiple children. this forces stand by and allow to happen. kindred israeli utilizing first person perspective, direct and elaborate language, and then the distractions. i'll intentionally echoing the traditional first person running style of slave narratives, butler takes advantage of the readers contemporary understanding of american slavery to provide nuanced historical commentary.

butler's writing is masterful. never wants to see lapse into tired tropes or generalizations about the community of people who were forced to live on the plantation, every enslaved person and even the sleigh folders are wholly written and explored. the violence is shocking and gruesome, but never is a gratuitous. the description of the land, the people, the violence, it is all visceral. the result is immediate, it is eerie, and it is realistic. it feels productive to characterize kindred as anyone thing. it's equal parts science fiction, historical fiction, and slave narrative. kindred skillfully explores the weaponization of family ties, the complex part of a mix of oppression, and the generational effect of trauma. right after the break, i will be joined by two people who know both octavia butler and kindred better than most. nancy shaw, author, educator, in front of octavia butler, and three when a thomas, writer and re-recent winner of the octavia butler ward. do not miss this conversation.

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velshi banned book club is now officially underway. i want to welcome to guest today. easy shot is an award-winning science fiction and fantasy writer and a friend of the award-winning octavia butler. an award-winning fiction writer, poet, editor, and recipient of the 2023 octavia butler award.

thank you both for joining me. usually we dive right into the book. today i want to start our conversation about the author, octavia butler. niecy, let's start with you. you wrote a letter to your friend 11 years after she died. writing in part, quote, it looks like we are all gonna have to be octavia's all of us women and men and every other gender as well. african americans, native americans, every other race all of us at least in the sense we are gonna have to write change the world fiction like you we are gonna have to change the world. we are going to have to do everything we can to maintain life on this planet, and to quote. tell me more about what you meant about us all being and octavia? >> she was someone who wrote change the world changing the world was definitely permission and she infected everyone she came in touch with with that same mission. we needed to make the world a

good place. a good place for all of us. >> surely, octavia butler once quote, i am a writer at least partly because i had access to public libraries. i'm also a product of librarian to root stories for groups of have a little kids. that quote has since become famous. like all of butler's writing, is weirdly relevant to right now in 2024 america. >> yeah, exactly. >> the irony of her work being banned in the libraries, prisons, and schools is not lost on us. science fiction is such a powerful tool for social change and for making the world better that octavia mansion and all of her writing, whether it was her short stories, novels, or her essays where she inspired us to persevere and to continue. i learned about her work in a

slavery literature class in college. i had no idea that a black woman had written in a genre that i love so much of the young person. science fiction, especially the science fiction show them the library were critical to my development as a writer, a reader, and as a thinker. it isn't important that we support and fight for these kinds of radical envisioning's of the future that octavia butler, and others, have been working so hard to put into the world. >> i will say that we do not do a ton of science fiction on the show. maybe we should do more. we certainly do not do a lot of black authored science fiction. we certainly do not do a lot of black women authored science fiction. nisi, octavia butler is singular in so many ways but she spent much of her life supporting young black writers particularly in this space. the white male dominated science fiction space. her work explores how important community. is she was building her own community, as sheree says.

>> yes, yes she was. actually there are two scholarships that i know that are named after her. the goal being to bring along people of color who want to write science fiction. that is what she was doing, as well as the award that sheree just won. >> sheree, by the way, congratulations. but kindred was written after butler took a research trip to mount vernon, the former home of george washakie ten. she was inspired by this moment, we will call it erasure, while she was on the tour. the tour guide referred to george washington terrace labas as servants. [laughter] that erasure, that euphemism, something if you read more of her work he realized she has been excavating what it means to be hyper invisible in american culture. if you are on the margins,

right? having someone like that, so significant to the american revolutionary war, being discussed as a serve in. he was so much more to george washington. and actually had a very complicated relationship to freedom, and his own agency and freewill. those are the things she is exploring in kindred, and in wild seed. one of my favorite novels by her. and many of her short stories, including the challenge between what it means to be human and how that changes when you are encountering the other, the alien. >> nisi, i found it interesting that at the core of kindred are two different intergenerational relationships. dana and kevin, and the his historical rufus and allison 1815. is the modern nature of dana and kevin's relationship meant to serve as a foil for the

brutality of rufus analysis, in your opinion? >> maybe a foil. maybe just to complicate things further. to say this bad sort of relationship, this dynamic and inequality is not the only way that the stuff has to go. i love that about octavia's work. she was never satisfied with painting things in flat shades. she wanted to give volume. she wanted to make things have real depth. that is what she did there. >> a lot of texture to it. we rene thomas, something i found particularly unsettling about kindred is how dana now it's become accustomed to the brutal treatment. unable to travel back to the future as frequently because her tolerance violence actually grows. alice cannot withstand her hatred towards rufus, and eventually starts to feel

neutral about him. almost in a stockholm syndrome sort of way. what is butler trying to tell us, in your sense, with this normalization of the violent treatment that both of these women face? >> i think it was a powerful cautionary tale. she is reminding us that if we don't do something to challenge the violence happening around us, we are doomed to re-inscribe it by our inaction and that inaction can make you numb to it. inaction can make you complicit in that violence. it is a challenge to contemporary readers to think about the spaces that they occupy, and where they can speak up and not become complicitous to the violence. not normalize inequity and racial injustice, and things like that. >> is it your sense, nisi, but that message might even be more

resonant and important today than it obviously was even when octavia road? we are not better at that. it seems that in our modern world we normalize violence even more than we did decades ago. >> everything that she put in there is there for a reason. it is there for the reasons of what was going on at the time but also because she knew. she practice the art of writing science fiction, which is that of realistic extrapolation. she knew that these things could develop in this way. we could need that help that sheree is talking about. reminding us that we need to be conscious and aware of what is going on at all times. >> sheree, i mentioned dana's severed arm in the introduction. a powerful way to open a book. it is butler, octavia butler

the symbolism is multi fold. for one, i think it is a metaphor for dana's ancestry. she may built a return to her modern life away from the antebellum south but she's gonna carry that past with her, now physically not just emotionally. what is your sense of that? >> first of all, that was the very first disable character that i can recall reading that had regular agency in a novel. that was a powerful thing, in and of itself. to have her be the lead, have that be her experience. the other thing is it is a very physical representation of the brutal cost of the peculiar institution. even though it happened in the past, the legacy of it continues on in our society. the legacy of it continues in the way that we organize our resources and the way that we speak to each other and think about the way we order society. having dana experience that,

not leave untouched, unscathed, was very important i think to creating, not only dramatic tension in the storytelling but to remind us that there are no easy choices in life. no easy choices in history. even though one i was reading it in the 1990s, and i was feeling, yay, black power, you know? feeling very radical. when i read it and i thought, oh, if i was in the past that would've done this so i would've done that, octavia butler reminds us, no. the choices that we make affect other lives. it affects whole generations ahead of us. you have to make tough choices. sometimes resistance is subversive. sometimes it is invisible to others. and it comes at a cost. >> sometimes, as we like to say at the velshi banned book club, the reading itself is the resistance, like books like our tabler. thank you to both of you. nisi shawl award-winning science fiction and fantasy

author and a friend of the late octavia butler. and sheree rene thomas, award-winning fiction writer, poet, editor, and recipient of the 2023 octavia e butler award. i'm grateful to both of you. that does it for me, thank you for watching. catch me back here tomorrow morning from 10 am to noon eastern. trans coleman will be into me tomorrow. don't forget velshi is also available as a podcast. follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. as you know, i do the podcast invest. check out your favorite velshi segments on youtube at the msnbc.com slash ali. stay right where you are, the katie phang show starts right now. katie phang show starts righ now. i am katie phang, live from telemundo studios in miami, florida. here is the week that was. >> nbc news can now project the winner of the new hampshire republican primary is donald trump. >> think about, appointed the senator of his state, she endorsed me.