what she says the world is at an inflection point. but first, what you need to know about donald trump's massive judgments. the rules for when and how he must pay. plus, trump's team pushed back -- no crime, no victims. and what happens next after the riveting testimony of fani willis? ♪ ♪ ♪ a good day from los angeles, welcome to alex witt reports. we begin this hour with donald trump back on the campaign trail. but dogged by the headlines of the day. $355 million plus interest, he was ordered to pay a new york judge for falsifying business records to get favorable loans on february -- favorable terms on loans. trump's legal team indicate he plans to appeal that ruling while he hints -- insists there was no crime. >> there was no fraud.

the bank socket their money, 100%. no victims, the banks met a lot of money. they met $100 million. by the way, i paid approximately $300 million and taxes. >> i want to be clear. white color financial fraud is not a victimless crime. when the powerful break the law, they take more than their fair share, there are fewer resources available for working people. small businesses and families. and every day americans cannot lie to a bank about how much money they have in order to get a mortgage to buy a home or a loan to keep their business afloat. or to send their child to college. and if they did, our government would throw the book diat them.

>> the staggering fraud penalty today raising some new questions about trump's ability to pay it. we have reporters in covering all these new developments for us. we're gonna begin with nbc's vaughn hillyard, you've been very chilly for michigan, or donald trump will be here today. vaughn, how is the trump campaign reacting to the big legal awesome new york? >> right, this is major donald trump, because omi hints at the heart of the company that he built so much of his political operation around. and the draw that so many millions of folks around the country, including a great many that i've talked to over the course of the last eight years, said that let them to dame trumpison political candidate in the first place, because he was a successful businessman. that, when you look at the heart of the judges decision in new york lyesterday afternoon, he cuts in questions at just how he was able to build this real estate empire to the extent he was able to. i want you to hlisten to donal trump last night outside of his mar-a-lago estate before hitting the campaign trail today. take a listen.

>> it all comes out of biden. it's a attack against his political opponent, the like of which our country nehas never seen before. and i just want to say this. you build a great company, there was no fraud, the banks all got their money, 100%, they love trump. >> for years, donald trump engaged in deceptive business practices and tremendous fraud. donald trump may have authored the art of the deal, could he perfected the art of the steal. >> now, alex, donald trump's legal team both and indicated on site that they intend to a appeal to the judges decision yesterday in the state of new onyork, alex. >> yeah, hey, vaughn, quickly, over your right shoulder, i guess that would be, it looks to throw bunch of people. are they all there for donald trump? are they out this early, freezing, like you are to wait for him? >> [laughter] we are hours before a rally

here, about 40 minutes outside of detroit. folks headed to lottery here, it's about 20 degrees, 25 mile per hour wind gusts, and i can tell you, it's a little bit cold here off this february eb day. but for ardonald trump, for eve decision that a judge may make against him, ultimately, the most important jury to him here in the year of 2024, alex, is that the american electorate coming november, and that is what donald trump is coming here to michigan to help, in parts, trwith over. >> yeah, listen. my friends. one more question about the hush money case on the judge setting that trial date for march 25th. trump thwas in court, as you, know thfor the hearing thursday did he and his legal team expect this to be the first criminal trial he would face? >> well, for months now, alex, march 4th was the day the federal 4telection interference case was set to begin. but now, because of the appeals process over whether donald trump has presidential immunity or not, that suddenly pushed that trial back beyond, march and lead march 25th to be the beginning of this hush money

payment case. it was hunot the forefront of their minds. but, at this point, this is likely going to be a six-week trial. for donald trump, he is facing state charges, which, if you were to get back into the white house, he will not be able to pardon, because they would not be hwifederal charges. so, for him, there's a real shot that come either republican national convention in july, that donald, trump if he were to be found guilty of any of these 34 felony counts, could be a potential felon heading into the summer's republican d national conventio >> wow, okay. go warm up. we'll >>see you again. thank you upso much. i want to bring yoin kristy greenberg, former federal prosecutor erand former deputy head of the criminal division in southern district of new york. welcome, christiane. was good to have you here. so, please fines are staggering, right? but according to new york city early general, so is the extent of l,trump's fraud. what is your assessment of the judgment? >> so, i think it's more than fair. look, donald trump and his sons acted like badly behaved toddlers throughout this case,

and lethroughout this trial. they lied, they cheated, they threw tantrums, they didn't listen. they didn't admit their bad behavior, and they didn't say they anwere sorry. and those were the things that judge engoron considered when he said he had no choice but to punish them. he took away their expensive toys and privileges. he put them in a timeout, essentially, and he hired a very strict babysitter that is r going to oversee these businesses. he explained in this decision in detail xpwhat they did wrong and why. he really taught them a lesson about greed, that lying and cheating has consequences, and when you don't say you're sorry, it makes things worse. so mahe really set an example here for others as well to know that when you are breaking the law, you're not going to get away with it. >> so, what happens next? does trump have to fork over these massive sums of cash through the courts, while an appeal is pending? >> so, he said he will appeal like he is appealing, he has to

fork over money. he has to either fork over the full amount of the cash, which with the interest penalty, is about 400 and $50 million. he has to either give the full amount of the money or he has to secure a bond. that is just a third-party guarantee that he could pay the full wants. it's going to do that within 30 days. now, there's public reporting that his lawyers are in touch with companies lto try to secu that bonds. but even to do, that he would have to put up some collateral. usually, and he would also have to pay a premium. usually, that's about 10%. , so we would be looking at $45 million at least that he would need to pay. that also comes with interest and with fees. so, these are significant amounts, and he's got a very short timeframe to try and pull this together. >> let's take a look together at some of what judge engoron wrote in his ruling. here's the quote. this actually is not the first time the trump organization or its related entities have been found to enhave engaged in corporate malfeasance.

this is not the defendants first rodeo, adding quote, his refusal to answer the questions directly, in some cases, at, all severely compromised his credibility. donald trump profess to know more about real y.estate than other people, and to be more expert than anybody else. he repeatedly falsified business records with the intent to defraud. so, looking at that, christy, how do you expect this to play out in appeals court? >> so, this opinion was so detailed. the judge went through every witness that testified. summarized their testimony, and also included his observations t of the credibility of these witnesses. pointedly, he said he found donald trump and his son, donald trump, junior, eric trump, and you don't get trump, he found them not to be credible. whereas in somewhat of a surprise, he found michael cohen to be telling the truth, even if he had perjured himself previously. but he laid all those factual findings out in detail in this

opinion. he lays out specifically the amounts that he believed each asset was inflated by, the expert testimony he relied upon. these factual findings on appeal are not things that and appellate court is really going to overturn. they really look at whether the legal issues that have come up in any improper interpretation of the law. that really doesn't exist here. the one thing that was at all controversial that he had initially iaconsider doing, and he walked back in this decision, was getting rid of those licenses for s him to operate his businesses. that is something that has literally been done. the corporate death penalty. it's really dog. he took that away in this opinion and basically said no, we're just gonna give you the timeout. you can't run your business for few years. you are going to have a lot of oversight in the meantime. so, again, i don't think -- >> oninteresting. >> that there's a lot of ground zero for appeal. >> it's interesting you talking about the perception of everything. in fact, the trump family had a lot to lose, compared to

michael cohen, who already had lost everything. so, perhaps, he did come off more credibly in the judges eyes. let's look at the georgia election racketeering trial. which is a pretty fiery through this week, the testimony from falling whwitness, as well as h father. here is some of what he said about urging her to keep cash at all times, and then a little more from fani willis. >> your honor, i'm not trying to be horacist, okay? but it's a black thing, okay. you know, i was trained, and most black folks, they hide cash, so they keep cash. >> as you light in this, let me tell you which when you hilight and. right here? the light right here. >> no, no, no. this is the truth! it is a lie! it is a lie? >> then, intrusive into peoples personal lives, or confused. you think i'm on trial. these people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. i'm not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on

trial. >> what is your gut telling you? you think willis will be disqualified from this case? >> no. and she should not be disqualified. this hearing was supposed to be about evidence that showed that she had obtained some improper financial benefits. there was no evidence of that. this was a fishing expedition by the defense. they put up to witnesses. they called one woman who was a former friend who had exited the d.a.'s offices and was basically told either resign or be fired. there was ldsome dispute with it her, she disputed the timeline. said nothing puabout the finances. right? she wasn't all that credible, given that she is a former friend of nathe d.a.. then, they said they had a start thwitness. this was a former law partner nathan wade. they said he would be the want to be able to bring the evidence. , well he said basically nothing. he had actually been an attorney who represented nathan wade at one point,, so he didn't testify to anything.

so, really, where is this financial benefit? she testified she took nathan weight on a trip to belize. he testified that you never even gave her a gift over the years they were dating. you know, anything that they did in terms of travel, she testified she reimbursed him. there is teno evidence to the contrary, so, again, she was angry at that hearing. i was angry watching it, because it was really, there was no evidence there! there was really no corroboration for anything the defense was saying. this was really a smear campaign isagainst the d.a., at the end of aithe day. there's no evidence of an actual conflict, so they wanted to create a mess. something that e gave an appearance of impropriety. well, that's not enough to disqualify the d.a. t from an investigation that she built for two and ina half year and if you disqualify the a, you disqualified the whole office, which means this thing is dead in the water. you cannot do that. >> yeah. let's talk about the judge in the hush money case that says a trials and for march 25th.

when jury selection is set to begin, so, trump was in court for that hearing thursday. did he, christy, or his legal team expect this heto be the first of the four criminal trials he would face? >> i think the writing has been on the wall that this one would be the want to go forward for a while, given the fact that we have had d.c. election interference case, which was initially scheduled for march 4th, on hold for the past two months. so, given the judge said if there is no conflict, you know, he said it with the fact that d.c. case. but given that there is no trial date on the calendar there, there's ono reason why this case couldn't proceed. so, they shouldn't have been too surprised cethat the judge going forward on march 25th. >> let me ask you a last question. do you think the supreme court is going to take a up the immunity case or not? >> well, if they're following the law, they should not. , so the legal standard here for whether or not this goes back to judge chutkan, and he can go ahead and set a trial date, is whether or not there

is a fair cross specht that the majority of the supreme court e will overturn the d.c. court of appeals decision, which remember, was unanimous with two democrats and one republican judge having found that he does not have absolute immunity from criminal prosecution. he cannot meet that burden to show that this will be overturned. it is a frivolous claim, and it's not based in the text of the constitution. no prior presidents ever made this claim. there's no scholarship to support it. and really, it's just an obvious delay tactic. so, the supreme court should not take up this invitation. they should not put this on hold thany longer. it's honot fair to the rights o the public to have, are entitled to a speedy trial. they should deny his application. back to judge chutkan this week, and she is should be able to set a trial date, which would basically putl this at probably late may, as soon as late may, which will be right after this new york trial

concludes. >> all right, well, let's see if they're listening to give. chris greenberg, thank reyou so much. what we learn from that brand- new nbc exclusive interview with mice president kamala harris. we're back in 60 quick seconds. harris. we're back in 60 quick seconds. wanna know why people are getting a covid-19 shot? i'm turning the big seven-o and getting back on the apps. ha ha ha. variants are out there... and i have mouths to feed. big show coming up, so we got ours and that blue bandage? never goes out of style. i prioritize my health... also, the line was short. didn't get a covid-19 shot in the fall?

there's still time. book online or go to your local pharmacy. 15 past with this breaking news. an exclusive new interview with vice president kamala harris as she talks to abc's andrew mitchell about the far-reaching implications of the death of russian opposition leader, alexei navalny. >> it just speaks to the most recent of many examples of the brutality of putin and his government. and that's part of the conversation, than, that i'm having with our allies and friends here in new york. and in addition to the members of the united states congress are having with each other, inches where those america stands at moments like this? and with whom do we stand?

>> harris in germany, there for the security conference, as world leaders balance threats on various fronts. let's go to nbc national security correspondent, courtney kube, who is also there for us. first question to you, what was your big take away from the vice presidents interview with andrea, courtney? >> so, i thought the exchange you guys just showed was very telling. but in addition to that, andrea asked recently about former president trump's recent comments about nato aunt about russia. kamala harris had pretty strong language, vice president, very strong language on that, saying that he is the first former president to bow down to a dictator, and she said she doesn't think the american people would stand for that. pretty strong words out of the vice president on that. but in addition to that, that, this has been one of the primary topics of this conference going on for several days here, alex. that has been russia's aggression and the invasion in ukraine. it's really, there have been a number of sessions here in a

number of officials who have spoken about going on the two year anniversary, where that war stance. there is a lot of concern about what we heard from kamala harris, as well. the fact that the congress has not funded a supplemental that but allow the united states to continue to supply weapons. we heard from president zelenskyy this morning, actually, here. he also echoed the concerns about how ukraine is running out of things like artillery, ammunition, and very critically, air defenses. that's been a big topic of conversation here, alex. the fact that ukraine is literally only weeks away from running out of the very important interceptors to their air defense systems, and the concern is that if that continues, if they run out of those interceptors, that russia could start to really contest the airspace over ukraine. that could be a game-changer in the conflict there, alex. >> so, look. you're talking russia ukraine. how much is russia overall dominating the conversation? all the various russian threats

discussion at this conference? >> i mean, this is a europe based event. it generally does focus on security in europe. but there definitely has been conversation about israel, and about the war in gaza. and the humanitarian concerns there. i have to say, alex, one thing i've been really struck by is the fact that there are people who are asking about the u.s. support for israel, including the continued supply of weapons there, well not supporting ukraine and what that means. and i've spoken with a number of officials about that. they say they believe that the u.s. can, it's still supportive of ukraine, and what they have also said is there has been a recent increase in european support. so, we saw president zelenskyy was in germany. he was also in france furnaces trip out of ukraine, and there have been new security promises from those countries. we saw the e recently pledged billions of dollars, in additional assistance to ukraine. but that still comes amidst

this backdrop where the u.s. still is not funding the security systems packages for ukraine. and again, that's been a real point of contention here. we have more than 40 members of congress here, and that's been one of the things they've been asked about primarily, alex. >> okay courtney, qb thank you so much for. we appreciate you. now, joining me now, suppose we appreciate, democratic congressman of california, ted lieu. he sits on the foreign affairs and judiciary committee. welcome here in the studio, congressman. what have you here in person, love that. let's begin with the death of the russian leader, alexei navalny. it was in the siberian president, as you. no president about russian president vladimir paul putin is responsible for his death. what are your thoughts about this, and how, if we can, should the u.s. hold russia responsible? >> thank you alex. i think we have to ask ourselves, why did navalny all of a sudden die at this point in time? first of, all i agree, with president biden that russia is responsible for his death. also, what happened a few days

leading up to his death? well, we had former president donald trump, essentially say russia should attack european countries. that is crazy. that is traitorous language. russia certainly was listening, and i think they thought hey, we have the green light to do all sorts of crazy stuff. if trump were to be president, putin would have even more latitude. some responses? russia has funded terrorism. they are a state sponsored terrorism. the state who designate russia a state senator terrorism, and, issue could see seize russian assets that are already frozen, and we can sell them and give the proceeds to ukraine. >> so, the first part of your answer there, are you suggesting there could be a link between what donald trump was saying, saying russia, to whatever the hell you want, do you think it potentially aborted putin? because to your point, that

they before he died, he looked to be in perfectly good health. he had spoken with his wife. she appeared via zoom in some sort of legal arraignment he had to do. there are looking at pictures of. there he was joking with the, guards joking with the judge or an attorney there. he looked absolutely fine. the next day, drops dead? >> i think it's quite agreements of than. certainly, russia is listening to what the foreign president saying. he is saying crazy stuff, and the language is using is not only crazy, it dishonors the veterans and their military members who fought in world war ii, who established this peaceful world order that has kept the peace for many, many years. and to say you want to destroy nato, in so many words, is crazy. >> okay. let's talk about the house is done. i'm very glad you're here in studio, but the house has gone on recess for two weeks. without having addressed the prospect of funding ukraine, with 60 billion dollars in aid for the more they are so valiantly trying to fight against russia. as well as the funding for israel, as well as funding for

taiwan, and president biden, you've hurt him. he is not pleased. take a listen to what he said. >> it's about time they step up, don't you think? instead of going on a two week vacation? two weeks, they're walking away. two weeks! what are they thinking? my god! this is bizarre! and it's reinforcing all the concern and almost, i won't say panic, but real concern about the united states being a reliable ally! this is outrageous! >> look, i'm not suggesting that they're going on a two week vacation. i know it well enough that you there rumblings working these two weeks. that said, biden said history is watching. do you think electing the volleys death could help spur mike johnson and the gop members who are opposing funding ukraine, and funding anything that seems to oppose

russia, could it help when you come back from vacation? >> first of all, let me say agree with president biden, and i should not be here right now, doing this interview with you. i should be on the house floor, voting the supplemental package to help fund ukraine. we see that russia is being emboldens. not only do we have navalny die at the hands of russians, in the russian prison, but we see russia going on the attack in ukraine. if we don't support ukraine, really, there's only one possible outcome, which is russia will keep attacking. eventually, will conquer ukraine, and that's going to cause even more problems for the united states. it will cost more money, and since trump saying russia has the greenlight to attack european countries, that starts putting u.s. troops at risk. >> as you consider giving aid to israel, financial, military aid, this is as the idf is preparing to storm rafah in the southern part of gaza, a place where over 1 million refugees have taken flights and are trying to seek some sort of shelter. do we know whether israel and

prime minister benjamin netanyahu is heating president biden's warning to don't proceed unless you can ensure the safety of the civilians? should the u.s. consider putting any sort of military options, and the sort of restrictions at all, conditions, if you want to call it that, on any aid that we give israel? >> my heart goes out to the palestinian civilians and the israelis who have been killed, as the result of october 7th attack by hamas. the war is horrible. it is tragic. that's why we have to pass the supplemental aid package that has over nine billion dollars of humanitarian assistance to gaza, as well as ukraine. and in congress, that is our prerogative. passing the aid package. the biden administration as an ongoing discussion with israeli government. but the role of congress right now is to pass this aid package to help the civilians in gaza. >> let's talk about the supreme court decision, whether it's going to uphold or take up

donald trump's immunity. presidential immunity challenge there. whatever the high court does would have some pretty major implications for these criminal cases, things that are meant to delight, that d.c. election interference case, notably. you are an impeachment manager, which is not lost on, this as we know, as donald trump was impeached for the january 6th attack. you were there in the capital. what are you watching for, from the supreme court, when i address this issue? >> there is no legal reason for the supreme court to take up this case. the d.c. court of appeals of opinion was strong. this is really a frivolous case, and that's because in america, we're not a cult. we're a nation of laws. so, you don't get to violate the law just because you are a former president. you don't get to violate the law because you're richer because you're powerful. the law applies equally to everyone. >> what about special counsel robert hur,'s plans to testify to the gop on the committee there?

the house judiciary committee next month, about report clear in president biden? we want to remind our viewers, clearing him of any charges for his handling of classified documents, but you see on that committee. given the conclusive findings there, just the gop can bring him in front of that committee, just to try to embarrass joe biden? >> so, i just wanted over economically, we've had some amazing indicators. when a blowout jobs report, we had stock market setting record highs, consumers when they get up. so, democrats are working on laws to try to keep costs down and create more jobs. and republicans don't know what to do with that. so, they do nothing. this is a two nothing republican congress, and they focus on stupid stuff, like baseless impeachments, i simply note that the main witness in their attempt of impeachment of joe biden was just charge for lying to fbi. so, they really have no case. and with respect to the classified documents case, against joe biden was cleared by the special counsel's office. >> do you think democrats can

do anything to prevent this testimony? and getting it out there? they want to do it publicly. >> we tried to stop stupid stuff all the time for republicans. sometimes, were able to, because sometimes, a few of their members actually see the light and i want to do crazy things. that's why want to go back to ukraine will quick. i agree with republican chairman michael -- the foreign affairs committee said. i said on the committee. he said, speaker mike johnson can't prevent a vote on this ukraine aid forever. and if he does that, it's going to continue to harm or our life. >> our friend, congressman ted lieu, i always appreciate your candor. good to see. you >> thank you. >> now, i it's time for a crime. it's a republicans dream come true. a valentine from you know who? it starts with, love you, honey. but please, please, just send be money. tom nichols and anne-marie cox unpack this later, until there is nothing. here is nothing. d for rapid relief that lasts and lasts. that's my babyyy! -ow! get mucinex instasoothe. it's comeback season.

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32 pass for the breaking news. virginia, one firefighter is dead and more than a dozen hunters injured after a house exploded overnight. here's how neighbors described that last. >> what happened? >> [inaudible] >> what happened? >> something exploded! >> your house exploded? >> my house was shaking for a few seconds, boom. what i thought is that somebody went inside my driveway and crashed into my garage. that's how i felt. boom! a huge explosion! >> wow. nbc's allie raffa is following the story from us. what are you hearing, all, about the higher invests native officials such renewed? any updates? >> yeah, alex. total devastation of how the assistant fire chief described this home explosion this morning. if you hours ago, we received nothing from the loudoun county fire team about how this blast

happened. officials say firefighters responded to the reports of a gas smelling sterling virginia, which is just outside of washington, d.c.. shortly after arriving on scene, they say that firefighters found in leaking 500 gallon underground propane tank adjacent to one of these homes, and they say that the odor from that lake was migrating into the home. they say that shortly after, that firefighters entered to be able to evacuate some people and some pets. units on scene then reported a catastrophic explosion that cause multiple may day. firefighters downside the home and intern outside the home. that sparked a very chaotic scene. officials say if they try to count how many firefighters we're in need of help, a simple trapped inside of the home. that's really tried to go in rescue them, they say ten firefighters, as well as two occupants of the home, were taken to local hospitals with injuries ranging from minor to

severe. and tragically, one firefighter, his name was trevor brown of the sterling following to your fire company, was killed in the explosion. here's chief keith johnson of the loudoun county fire department, talking about that loss. >> as the fire chief, it's the worst thing we can possibly do, right? it's a thing we train for not to do. and we lost a family member. we lost one of our own. it doesn't matter his career, a volunteer, we lost a family member. and quite frankly, it's like losing one of our own. in another sense, it is -- quite frankly, we are lucky we only had one fatality. 14 people injured, our folks were in the house when it exploded. that is a miracle. >> brown was 45 years old, and is survived by his wife and three children. alex, as far as the cause of this last, officials say they don't have a complete answer at this time. they assume that that leaking propane tank had a large part

of the reason why this house exploded, but they stress that the investigation is still ongoing. >> well. that devastation is extraordinary and tragic, the loss of life. okay, thank you so much, allie raffa for that. the former president reeling after he was ordered to pay more than 440 million in civil judgments. at what point will donald trump's supporters look at this and just say no in november? we'll have answers to that question, next. wers to that question, next. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. [coughing] copd isn't pretty. i'm out of breath, and often out of the picture. but this is my story. ( ♪♪ ) and with once-daily trelegy, it can still be beautiful. because with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare-ups. trelegy also improves lung function,

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as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. you want to see who we are as americans? i'm peter dixon and in kenya... we built a hospital that provides maternal care. as a marine... we fought against the taliban and their crimes against women. and in hillary clinton's state department... we took on gender-based violence in the congo. now extremists are banning abortion and contraception right here at home. so, i'm running for congress to help stop them. for your family... and mine. i approved this message because this is who we are.

donald trump is back on the campaign trail in pennsylvania and michigan, just one day after getting that bombshell decision by judge arthur engoron in new york. that stunning ruling as to trump's mounting legal troubles as he prepares for the start of his first criminal case in march of still being front runner in the republican presidential race. joining me now, political columnist at host of the podcast, the friends like these, and anne-marie cox and staff writer at the atlantic, tom riddles. good have you here. tom, do you think voters will see that someone who is barred from personally running a business in new york also should not be trusted to be president again? is there any chance this is the straw that broke the camel's back for some on top of two impeachments, for criminal trials, and allies around the world concerned that donald trump could return to the oval office? >> no. certainly not. >> okay, anna! >> just getting.

>> [laughter] not among his base. if two impeachments, an insurrection, you know, multiple, i mean, all the things that he's done that we could see here for hours and recount. if that didn't do. within a verdict that most of them will consider to be unjust and punitive and you know, rigged and biased, that's not going to mean nothing. for a lot of other people in america, i think at least for some voters who might start you know, now start paying attention to the news again, because you know, the voters just tune out politics in between elections, it may well be that you know, some of them are just going to say, you know, which is so tired of this guy and his drama and his ongoing problems and his issues. but you know, i thought it would happen a lot sooner than that. now, so i'm not confident about. that >> yeah. how about you, anna? sorry forcing an earlier. and it was not a. >> that's okay.

>> do you think so make any difference with the voters? >> i think we have to remember we are part of this conversation, right? it's not just will voters think, it's the way that we talk about, it to. it's a way that other reporters talk about it. i think one thing that should be emphasized every time we talk about this is that normal people don't get away with giving this, and, also by doing this kind of scheme, he is robbing people. by not paying taxes, it is a form of fraud. not just against the government, but against people who benefit from of the government does. right? i remember talking to a mainstream reporter at one point during the trump administration who said the problem with getting people to care about this kind of thing is they don't see how it affects them. it affects them, and i think that's the thing we have to drive him again and again and again. if you have a fraudster in the oval office, if you have someone who can't manage his business without lying about it all the time, it will affect you. this is going to trickle down.

not just trickle, down, like it changes the way people run the country. and it means that you can be a thick time of this kind of nefarious business. so, it's not just about what trump feels or who he is, how he does his business, it is about what this means for all of us if he is president. >> i think you make a really good point there. people of the say to the south, this can affect me. good. point top, there are questions about whether or not he could even pay for this. there was that theorem olano valentine's day fundraising emails that trump sent out, even before this decision came out. thanking milan yet for standing by him during his indictments and trials, well then simultaneously asking his supporters for money. does that kind of thing turn of women voters who really see it as just another ask for money? >> well, again, does it turn of women voters more than all of the other you know, swine like things that he has said about women and done in his life?

i mean, i take almost point that at some point, you could say was, and this is actually taking money out of your pocket. but i remain pessimistic, if only because we keep waiting for that is this finally it's moments? after all the things, calling women, you know, pigs and fat and dogs and, is it going to be, you, know this cringe-y eagle lake those him in with women? if the other stuff didn't do, it it won't. but it is possible, i think, that there is a way to argue to people to say, look, he really has contempt for people like you. he would never let you get away with this. this is something he does. and i think this is something with paying his bills. that does resonate with people, you know, if you worked for the sky, you would stiff you, because he's done into a lot of people. people have to understand that. but i also think it's just we've become so transactional

most people say well, he's sticking it to rich people and the government, and that's not me, so, what do i care? >> do you think, on, this turns off any female voters at all? >> i think so, but i also, i think it can. i think that one way of framing this is really important is not that what will this do or what are the possible implications, but what are we living under right now? isn't it horrible that he's suing he's things, and what does it mean is one question. but right now, women and other people in america are suffering under these abortion bans that he made possible. that is the thing that offense me. that's the thing that my friends talk about. that is the thing, i have had friends, i live in texas. i have had friends have to leave the state to receive reproductive care. young people who never thought in their lifetime that this would happen to them. right? and that they thought that at some point, to be able to get in abortion, right?

and i know friends who are running out of time. i think that that's the thing that women are going to be thinking about, and if we look at the polls, not just the polls, on my, gosh look at the elections! every time this has been on the ballot, you know, republicans have suffered. and i know trump himself has tried to distance himself from abortion ban top, but let's just drive this home. this is not a potential problem. this is something i think almost half of women in america right now are living under a regime that either bands or severely limits access to reproductive care. >> look, there was an article in the new york times, and it's cited two sources with knowledge, saying that privately, donald trump expresses support for the 16- week abortion ban. you say this is a wake up call to president biden writing this. democrats, biden included, need to boldly talk about why abortionists health care, period, and the government has no business deciding who deserves one anymore than they regulates who gets a check up a need to be unapologetic about

women women and their doctors decide at what point, in a pregnancy, abortions should take place. assert that abortion on demand is wrong, only because you shouldn't have to demand. wanting is enough. do you think they're gonna heed your advice? >> realistically, no. i'm gonna argue it anyway, because we are living in horrific conditions right now. we are living under the conditions that abortion rights activists have been warning about for a long time, that democrats have been trying to go she some kind of, let's make abortion palatable. let's talk about in the way that doesn't scare people. right now, there is a very clear choice between a party that wants to force all pregnant people to give birth, and they party path doesn't want to do that. so, i don't think democrats need to have half measures about this. i don't think we have to be scared of saying abortion on demand. i think there's a whole generation of people that don't understand why that is a term that's has such toxicity to it. those of us old enough to

remember clinton probably do remember this. do you remember how that was a scary phrase? but right now, i know people think when i talk to friends about abortion on demand, one question they have, is when else would you get one? why else would you get, one unless you demanded one? what would the other conditions be? we give them to people who don't demand them? sorry, you can't have an abortion, you want too much? [laughter] i think we need to change the way we talk about this. when you talk more openly about it. >> i think your point there. let me ask you quickly, tom, about fridays tragic but in fact, not surprising news that alexei navalny died while being held in a russian prison. it comes days after trump's comments saying putin can do whatever the hell he wants to nato countries if it doesn't pay for their security. how much this reminds us of the stakes of this election? >> the stakes are huge. and i think putin, the death of navalny, which i think is directly the responsibility. and if the president right.

directly the fault in the responsibility and probably, the plan of the russian government. shows that putin is was very scared, but also because he's been terrified of navalny for years. but he's also feeling very confident. he feels he can just do this, and then go kind of yuck it up at a public press conference the next day, a public visit in russia the next day, something very happy and relaxed, because he knows that an entire political party in the united states has his back. now, thankfully, there have been some honorable exceptions to that, and it's good to see other republican starting to you know, call each other on this, including people like senator tell and some others. but if donald trump is elected, i mean, if you think they were popping champagne in the kremlin last time, there will be enough champagne in the world for this. not just in moscow, but in beijing and in tehran and other

places. donald trump has no interest in defending american interests overseas, word for that matter, to go back to our topic a moment ago, he has no interest in abortion, one way or another. all he cares about was making it into the oval office to shelter himself from prosecution for the things that he has been credibly accused of doing. that's all he cares about, all the other stuff is just you know, foam on the sea, as far as he's concerned. it's just in the way of his sanctuary in the oval office. >> i appreciate the conversation. anna maria cox and tom nichols, thank you so much. it's a lot of money, even for a billionaire. but what happens if donald trump can't pay that 444 billion dollars? plus, it brought seeds, but did it shed light? the impact of fani willis's testimony this week, in our next hour. testimony this week, in our next hour.

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new today, the white house

is vowing to provide more aid to east palestine ohio. . that's a small town that is exposed to huge amounts of hazardous materials after a train derailed there last year. nbc's brie jackson's life and beach, delaware, where the president spending the weekend. sabrina,. i know the president was on the ground there in ohio yesterday. what did we hear from him after we spoke with the officials there? >> good afternoon, ali. so, this is president biden's first trip to east palestine, ohio, since that train carrying hazardous materials derailed there. last year. the epa says more than 100,006,000 tons of contaminated soil have been removed from that site since then. people who live there still remain concerned that some toxins might remain. so, during his visit there, president biden did meet with some local officials, as well as families impacted by the derailment. the president vowed to hold norfolk southern accountable. so you know that the company should have done more to

prevent the derailment from happening. >> this was an act of greed that was 100% preventable. let me say it again. an active greed that was 100% preventable. we were pushing the railroads to take more precautions to deal with breaking, to do a whole range of things that were knocked out. with we continue to hold norfolk southern accountable. we make sure that they make their community pulled out in the future, and what they do not make whole, what they cannot make, whole what the government will make all, we have an obligation. >> now, the presidents visit did not come without criticism. some say the president should have visited east palestine much sooner. back to you, alex. >> okay. brie jackson, thank you so much. there from our have -- city go far enough? but once a price for the judge in donald from civil fraud

trial. there's one big bingo judge left off the ruling. legal analysis, coming up in just a few minutes. g. legal analysis, coming up in just a few minutes. urtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention.