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welcome back to the weekend. another reminder that the 2024 presidential race is anything, but normal. look no further than donald trump's social media tirade this weekend. attacking several judges, overseeing the legal cases, asking how many corrupt judges

do i have to endure before somebody steps in? somebody steps in? we all know what happens when donald trump asked folks to stand back and standby the deadly insurrection. trump is choosing to make january 6 the center piece of his campaign and defending the rioters by calling them political hostages. joining us now to discuss it all is tom jocelyn, a principal offer and an nbc presidential historian. >> welcome to you both. i want to start with you and that i like to play out of the gate. and with the police office, harry dunn. can you take a listen just real quick? >> sure. >> no pushback against it. equals a win for it. that is why we have to continue to speak out and push it back and calling it for what it is.

that you have to be out there to continue to be truth tellers about what happened that day. >> and just a moment though. the counternarrative is being pushed consistently, constantly by donald trump. harry dunn, joining us for congress as a former police officer on capitol hill who was there on january 6. will join that line. what you saw and heard a lot of detail about where those lines soul be drawn. how do we as americans step more fully into the narrative that harry laid out? pushing back, calling out the b.s., and making sure that people understand what donald trump is actually doing is suddenly asking for his supporters to get engaged. and as they know how that turned out on january 6. and that is exactly how the thought occurred to me every day. when you look at the january 6

defendants who trump refers to as hostages and political prisoners. and that you have to address this, right? he doesn't see himself as a political candidate vying for the presidency. he wants to run the u.s. government. he sees himself as an insurgent who wants to overthrow the u.s. government. that's what a lot of his people believe too when you look at the crowd being held in dc, for example. a lot of them will have anti- government extremist beliefs. they don't believe that they are legitimate. and they don't believe that they really are an entity that should be respected. trump is directly pointing into that by calling these people hostages, an award that's usually used in arm conflicts between the two sides, right? and he is completely outside the bounds of our political normalcy. >> here is the thing that we all know well, that it is not just donald trump. it is also elected officials, people with real power who are carrying his water line. why don't you take a listen to

something? speaker mike johnson had to say on the past week. >> i made a commitment immediately after we got the gavel that we would start releasing that. originally trying to blur some of the faces to protect the innocent. people who are there walking into the building. >> reporter: to protect the innocent. the people who are there who just happen to be walking through the building. that's my question to you. what happens to the society where you have a large swath of people who believe a lie about that place on history. >> the place that will start, there is a tradition in this country and actually require them if they go away back when inspiring new citizen would come to this country. that they would be asked the question by the federal officials. what was the question? the question was do you advocate the overthrow of the government of the united states by force or violence? that was a threshold demand just to be kind of the citizen. now we've got the speaker of the house. saying that this was okay.

the president of the united states. saying an aspiring next president. saying that what happened on january 6 was something to be praised that these are hostages, these are prisoners. we are living in a world that's upside down. unfortunately, there is now a large media spirit that will let them get away with this line. if they do, our society does not have too much future because the most element thing that we have to protect us is against the threat of a group going into the capitol, attacking the congress, and possibly as some pride that day, killing leaders of congress including the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi and other officials. >> at least to your point. that they were there during the

day and on january 6 because of covid. so there weren't random people walking through the building. he was one of the chief cheerleaders of the insurrection of his big lie and spoke to him regularly. i was interrupting you, symone, because tom really wanted to jump in after he heard that sound. >> look, i looked at a lot of the january 6 security footage. the committee looked at it. release all of it, speaker johnson, right? it won't validate what they want to believe. in fact i would be glad to walk people through what the security footage actually shows, which is the far right extremist that led the attack at every point they could on that day. and a lot of the people who would walk through the capitol were not there obviously, peacefully. a lot of people were charged or violent. in fact a lot of the defendants through donald trump, praises the hostages and the political prisoners, have been charged with attacking cops, right? this is not some tourist visit

that they would have you believe. >> this is also very, very dangerous. >> yes. >> and a judge, of course, a court filing from a u.s. district judge, this is filed on wednesday. this does not happen. violence, it says violence will be getting a vicious cycle that could threaten the sheriff conventions and the institutions of governments. and that sends political violence rots republics. this cannot become normal. we as a community, we as a society, we as a country cannot condone the normalization of the january 6 capitol riot. and with the reagan appointee. he started the judge. the words, the fact that he will have to write this. people, they have attempted to be harmed by donald trump's rhetoric. that they have died because of what they have called on people to do. that there are not two sides to

this. >> no, there aren't. the other thing is that we are not debating what happened four years ago as important there was. that there will be election this november. if donald trump loses or maybe if he wins, what this kind of rhetoric does is to say to people if he loses after the election day, go after your governors. to fight legislatures. and then when the ballots are counted inen in january of 2025 and they get to congress, then it is great. why don't we do it again, but this time succeed? look at the number of people around trump who have said that the problem with january 6 was not that they were tried or referring to the ballots, but that they did not succeed the next time they say that they will have to do better. >> as so often the case, that they got to their point before i did.

[ laughter ] and it is not like trying new talking points, but trying to create the new structure program and carry the lies through about what happened on january 6. and that he is also trying to create a future construction to have it happen again. >> that is exactly right. he's created the permission structure, which they are illegitimate in the eyes of many of his followers. just think about that, right? this isn't a guy who is running to be president to run the u.s. government. this is a guy who is running on the platform saying that they are illegitimate, and deserves to be overthrown, right? a lot of these people believe that and they believe that the government was illegitimate and that the election was stolen, they believed trump's lies. >> do me a favor though. >> just the fact he's willing to go that far and say he's going to be a dictator on day

one. this is completely abnormal, right? where it used to be out of bounds and off limits. we used to understand that america was founded on overthrowing, the ruling. this is what it is all about that they were fighting for the revolution. it is completely the opposite on the side of the new king george. portraying himself as a freedom fighter. he wants a rule of one, not one by democracy. >> and so i want to pick up on tom's point because it's a powerful one to make. i hear what my friend is saying. but out here in the streets of america, we were just talking with the secretary of labor, right? 51% of the american people think that donald trump did a better job than the current

president on the economy, the middle east. so what is it? where is the historical nexus to look and see how people process information like this? i mean is this as dark as it is to the point that they actually will elect a person who is telling them, i'm going to be a dictator? and they are like okay, let's do that. >> look what happened in the last 30 years that we could spend endlessly, trillions of dollars and it will never have an affect. or in 2004, that we both remembered. a lot of people told pollsters at the time that george w. bush was running against john cary that they thought he was behind 9/11. when barack obama was president, the number of people who told pollsters we think he's a secret muslim, which great if he was, but he wasn't. but the point of the society that we're living in, a big lie can get around the world in a

way that it probably could not before internet gave some crazy person access to billions of followers and that also goes for certain cable channels. and the other thing that i'm worried about is this. that one of the most dangerous things i've heard in the last few weeks is remember when donald trump said i don't knee the nikki haley voters? what that says to me, in his mind, and i'm just speculating here. maybe he's dealing with a situation in his brain where, you know, it is not necessary to win the most electoral votes in november as one member of the trump entourage as having said before january 6 led straight to the violence. that quote from him. >> our constitutions are only as strong as the people who support them, who lead them. our democracy is only as strong

as the people who are willing to fight for their preservation. tom, i am so concerned that we have all these conversations about how democrats can't scare people to the polls. >> let me help you out. >> i am scared. >> yeah. i don't think that the threat they feel is being taken enough by some people. that there are a lot of people who have their heads in the sand. and that they worked for for 20 years. when it comes to the debate about whether or not he's an autocrat or not. of course he's an autocrat. that it is about one guy. and his own vice president was out of bounds. he wasn't going to form that on january 6. that's all the warning signs that we need, right? it's time to wake up and understand that this is not as normal as you would say, symone, or a normal political

candidate, somebody who is trying to overthrow our government and our institutions. >> former congressman says yesterday, it's not normal. not normal. thank you very much for your work and everything that you said this morning. you're going to stick around because next, we need to just peel back the layers a little bit more on the religious rhetoric, and what tay say about republicans and the intense devotion to him. this is the weekend. i love that my daughter still needs me. but sometimes i can't help due to burning

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finding 67% of whites have a view of being indicting the former trump. as trump seeks a second term, appealing to these voters by infusing the campaigns with the christian symbol and religious rhetoric. >> i was just going to note that we have a real man of

those sitting at the table. and i'm just, i will seek my ground to you. >> no, i have a problem with this whole elevation of trump as some demi god. >> i can't imagine. >> yeah. it is a real problem. again, when you have a historical in the room. it is important for history to come into context here. to put into context what we see happening with trump. and that i know father cofflin back in the 1930s catholic priest and very anti-somatic and a white nationalist. so we would have some elements. and that line, that thread in amongst certain evangelicals, who may not be christian

nationals, but act in a way that we will look at it and go this ain't right. so how should we read this moment with trump and some religious views? >> and since you both know in american history to have a real positive impact. and who were involved in the civil rights movement and to have helped to protect the civil liberties for others, and for the fraud and wars and gave their lives, so we could have that kind of reading that we would have today. when donald trump ran, when he announced when he was coming down the turn elevator that he calls the gold elevator, whatever it is at trump tower. i remember talking to someone who said no way trump will get nominated by the republicans. i said why is that? and he said because the evangelicals will stop him. they will see that this is someone who is profamed or doesn't read the bible, who does not believe in christianity and even worse, pretends to. and therefore trump will not

get passed that hurdle. that barricade of people. but what has happened is that a lot of people in the christian evangelical movements, even though they know he's not a conservative, but a radical, and wants to wreck our institutions. tay say well maybe we'll just use him to get things like, you know, repealing roe v. wade or other things. >> that will make sense. >> and who was a known thing, that it was a champion of the light being nationalism. that he's not one of us, but mike pence is. >> he was their eager servant in trying to keep them on trump's side, and pence, actually, he's owed a lot by donald trump in four years. everything that he did from the beginning of the access hollywood tape about where he will come out in the fall of 2016 through all the other things that we would like to

repress for most four years that they were horrible. mike pence would bless it and say what is more important is what he's doing in appointing judges in the supreme court. >> given that it is all going to play out in this year's presidential race. that this is the pro-biden group that is particularly entrusting. take a look. >> god says i need someone willing to give their whole life in service. so biden answered the call. god made us all together that we will make our democracy strong. thank god that we chose a faithful president who doesn't worship themselves to uphold. for such a time as this, we pray what is true to our hearts for four more years. >> the president who doesn't worship himself. my goodness. those words are doing a lot of work. >> right. we all know all four of us know that serves leadership. that the president is suppose

to be a servant leader, serving us. that you would hear about trump saying he will be a dictator for a day, if it happens. it could be for the rest of the lifetime in our children's and more and if that happens, that's totally against american history. the highest rank of the united states is not president. it is citizen as harry truman said. i would just say one thing. now remember, in the united states, we do not work for the president. the president works for us. >> this is why michael bender's piece in the new york times that published last week is very indicative, i think, of somebody that we should keep in our minds going forward. he writes do evangelicals compare trump to jesus? instead they described him as the modern version of the hero as david. morally flawed figures, hand picked by god to lead profound missions, aimed at achieving

the overdue justice or existing evil. david corn wrote about this. you have that understanding, maybe that project 2025 where there is literally a plan to inject christian nationalism into every facet of the government, changing the department of health to the department of life. how do we combat this is a cult- like thinking. and it is hand picked by god on sunday morning. i grew up baptist and i went my whole life that it does not seem to compute. >> i would say three words. that there is no religion that will be established among others.

and the historical condition in the constitution and no matter how many judges are more loyal to donald trump than they are perhaps in the constitution, let us hope that our judicial system will make sure that the separation between church and state, which is one of the strongest parts of our country is named. >> thank you. >> thank you. thank you very much. thank you so much. congressman dan kilby of michigan. at the table here in dc to discuss the very different weeks that biden and donald trump just had. stay with us. 're like me, one of the millions suffering from pain caused by migraine, nurtec odt may help. it's the only medication that can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks. treat and prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using.

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doubled down on anti-immigrant rhetoric, designed to stoke fear and division. of course, the difference is don't stop there. joining us now is the democratic congressman of michigan. welcome to the table, my friend. >> thank you very much. >> absolutely. >> i guess what he has chosen as the rhetorical path forward that this is a political winner. i want to remind folks that they weren't just workers, but they were parents, uncles. people who contributed to the local soccer team. they were members of the community, and they were loved. what donald trump's rhetoric does is that it strips immigrants, and they know of our humanity, right? that he wants people to see us as others and to point to us as a problem in the country when in reality, latinos, people, that's the backbone of this

country. so the contrast isn't just between two candidates, but what this country is and what it should be? >> that is so right and this is a question of what it is. where donald trump is trying to do and the name of his own political expediency is the normalized bigotry again to make it okay to hold those views and to try to motivate people to act that the worst instinct they will carry inside them and that is the focus of his campaign. and where we do recognize that we have challenges is that are dealing with the southern border, for example. his decision is to not contribute to a solar thing to require the republicans to stand with him to prevent achings by moving forward to deal with the actual issues that we would have on border

security, and use the immigration question as a political tool rather than try to find common ground. it does kind of conflate this. but it's not a guy who is traded in hatred for his entire career. obviously the american people will need to make a decision as to whether or not that is something that we want to endure until 2029. >> it is so interesting. if you go back to the split screen of president biden in baltimore with the people who are suffering, but promising what the federal government is going to be able to do, laying out there clearly, and how they are going to help and what that means and that i have heard it

travel in the country. and what is the lesser of two evils here? you will have one good, like being a good decent human, leak obviously it is the president of the united states of america. but thank goodness that joe biden is. then you've got the other man who is crazy. he's crazy. he's a part of the deck traitor and that he's league on policy and he is loose with the facts and that why do they feel like this is like the other elections? >> joe biden, you may not agree with everything, and i don't agree with everything that the president does and i'll share that with him. publicly and privately. >> and you signed that letter

and the other democrats. and just the two of us just a couple weeks ago. he wants to find some common ground and he's a self-absorbed person, who will, you know, use bigotry as a tool to achieve power and control. and i can't analyze them entirely, but i've got to believe that a part of it that they do appeal to that anger where they have been wrong. and rather than deal with the equities, he'll find the villain. and the villain happens to be people who don't look like

their base and who speak with an accent. and earlier we were talking about 5:00. that's another example of the use to achieve power to achieve their own glory. for whatever reason, 30%, 40% of the american people are falling for this, but we will have a campaign between now and november. there is a reason why we would have campaigns to tell the story to explain the facts as you know. i believe when that campaign is complete, the american people are going to see this choice. and they are not going to want to go back to where we were just a few years ago where you've got to find a way to come together. and i think joe biden, with differences that we may have with him is the only one of these two people who will give us the snowball chance of actually doing it. >> and let me put into context

what you're up against. what we are all up against. you have donald trump posting on his social media platform a video by one of his conservative donors. let's take a listen to this. >> we shouldn't much care whether our commander in chief is a real conservative. whether he's a role model for children or says a lot of silly things. and whether he's modest or dignified. and that is what we should care about is whether he knows that we are in a war and to know who the enemy is and knows how to win. trump does. his policies are important, but not as important as the rest of him. >> that's the crap we're up against. and that sells to a lot more

people than i think folks really appreciate and understand. diminish the office of the presidency because biden is in it and you don't care whether it is a good man or you don't care about his policies work for you or not. and what we want you to care about is one man. donald trump. because as he says here, nothing is more important than the rest of him. and this is, this is what will be fed into the culture that is dominating the conversation in politics, dominating the conversation on our economy. and everything else. and the president that we showed a little bit earlier, president biden's response to this whole god calling of donald trump. that's the countermeasure that i think we need to see more of where okay, you play the double, i'm going to be the saint. it's the kind of conversation. how do you see when you see an

ad like that being pushed out. how do you respond? particularly in your backyard and a place that michigan is just so important that right now it is so fractured? >> and first of all that is really dangerous. how do you use some shorthand? that guy is an idiot. it will create the permission structure for not only donald trump to do what he does in the way that he does, but it says to every eighth grade kid in school that you could do that too and that it is okay and that it is all right for you to use whatever tool you have and whatever bullying tactics that you want to get what you want for yourself. and that is fundamentally un- american and there is no society on the planet that i would ever survive as a guiding

principal. when where they have created the permission structure, where they are saying that they will praise that quiet part out loud. it is frightening. >> and it presents the challenge as they head to the ballot box. we would like you to stick around as we would like to have a little conversation about speaker mike johnson's future as house speaker and if he has one. this is the weekend. oh... stuffed up again? so congested! you need sinex saline from vicks. just sinex, breathe,

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congress returns from a two- week recess on tuesday to a fresh round of chaos. house speaker mike johnson is looking to pass an aid package for ukraine while avoiding marjorie taylor greene's attack to strike the gavel. you would almost feel bad for him, congressman, if he had not brought this upon himself. >> yeah, it is hard to feel bad for him. and that the whole house could support. and he placed himself in this position. and it's hakeem jeffries. if they have a conversation that there may be a way to find a path forward.

and that is a nice point of it. but to your knowledge, speaker johnson has not reached out to the democratic leader, hakeem jeffries. so all of this conversation about what democrats say johnson, what will they do. and that path forward that will include democrats that we're open to the discussion. and if he wants to continue to be speaker and he knows and realizes that the functional

majority of the house of representatives is comprised of democrats and republicans, then he can have that conversation with hakeem jeffries. we could find the path forward and do the work of the american people. then we'll litigate who will lead congress in the next session at the november ballot box. >> and that is the rub. if i'm speaker of mike johnson at a certain point, i have to do math and the math tells me that i'm not in the job come january. that's what the math says. and the house, they are saying that i'm not in this job and it will be a question of do i play to the mass or to majorie taylor greene? and either way, what the stake of my legacy in the job. and so if he wants to burnish the legacy other than he was marjorie taylor greene's pet

and was bullied into taking basically behaviors and positions on policies like, i don't know, the border. that you also have the question of ukraine. and that is the particular point that i would love to get your view on and how that is sort of shaping his approach to that lake. and that it will be like mccarthy and swim on out to some place and that is the pasture. or if he will try to stay on shore and actually serve out the speakership, knowing that i'm in the job because i got democrats who will hold here until january. >> and that is the thing that he faces is whatever the speaker faces that there are consequences to that calculation that he's trying to make and if he wants to make it to the end of the year to hold the whole house. that he'll need to figure into that calculation. and the fact if we don't act on

ukraine, for example, there is a consequence for the entire world. ukrainian people are just hanging on. they don't have the material that they need in order to defend against putin. we don't have a lot of time for him to sit and illuminate that he can't run that clock on it in east of november. there is a lot that will happen between now and then. a lot of people will compare them to high school. they don't believe in science. you know? they failed civics. and now they are failing math. they are failing math. >> and the school. >> i guess that they will do well at lunch maybe. i don't know. >> and that is like high school. congress is like high school. >> it is like high school except as we can all appreciate, the stakes are extraordinarily high. >> very high. >> which with respect to all my high schoolers out there as they understand that they were high on high school. but we are talking about matters of national security,

as we are talking about matters of domestic productivity. instead of focusing on those core issues, they are, inspeed, in la la land. and one thing to say they don't have control of the caucus that it will be fine with no real consequences for the american people. consequences for america as a super power. >> it will have consequences for human life right now where there are people who will die because the speaker is unwilling to just walk across the aisle and say let's take the will and the 300 plus members of the house to support them in their unprecedented invasion. there is a human consequence to this in the short term. in the long term, there is a political consequence that could be felt for generations. that we would all run for these jobs because they want to do big things. they seem to be so focused on

their own internal political fear that they have forgotten the reason they came to this place in the first place. >> congressman dan kilby of michigan. thank you for waking up, being with us. we've got a lot more ahead on the weekend. mother: within about two weeks of being in the nicu

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we were saying in the break how it was a heavy, a little more heavy today and it is heavy because the stakes are

very high, and i know that people will say you are all on tv and you do this every election and how the stakes are high, it's the most important election. i'm concerned because you think america will be recovered. i don't think that america will be okay. >> because we weren't after four years of trump. so i don't know how you think that it will be different. and he's not going to be a dictator and i don't know how much you could make it, you know? you just can't. if i said oh, i want to be pope, everybody will say that ain't going to happen, right? but he is running for the job and that he is actually telling us what kind of president that he wants to be and yet, you know, 51% of the american people think that he is better for their economic health and their long-term american dream.

but history will tell you what that is like. >> and you have those value caters out there saying don't pay attention to this or that and i was pretty confused by that because it's not suppose to be the policies that we pay attention to or the way that they are suppose to pay attention to. so what is it exactly that we're suppose to be buying into here? >> just him. >> and okay. and you know what, donald trump, this is the thing that i think we have really keyed in on over the last couple of months that he could be gone tomorrow and there is still the institution that has propped him up. what are we doing about the republican party? >> well, we are breaking it down, that's for sure. now look, there are weakened structures, which is why he needed to shore them up and why

he needed to take control of the state party apparatuses. but the reality is that it will require a lot of work. and the question is whether or not not just republicans, but the american people are prepared to do the work because obviously it won't be something to sit on the couch, things for january of 2025 is going to be better if trump is if play. >> you better vote now, okay? give a house accountable or work with joe biden, either way. >> guys. i wonder, did you get your glasses? did the people out there get your glasses? >> i'm still recovering from the earthquake, symone. >> okay. now let me tell you, we are ready. tomorrow is eclipse day, people. >> it is happier to end on today. if you happened to live somewhere, where you can see it, don't worry. if you're going to be like michael in the room, don't worry. we've got you covered here on msnbc. and our colleague is hosting

special coverage of the great north american eclipse, that's starting tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc and i'm getting some glasses. as for us, we will see you back here next saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern. be sure to follow the show on social media at the weekend, msnbc. that's going to do it for us, folks. we have no cross talk today. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects

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