that's going to do it for me tonight for this special edition of the rachel maddow show. i appreciate you having me here on a night i'm not usually here. now it's time for the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle. good evening, everyone. it is 9:00 p.m. in new york. i am ali velshi sitting in on

the special edition tonight. we heard from the president of the united states in his first extended on air interview since last week's debate . president biden standing firm despite concerns in and among those in his party that he is staying in this race, that he is the man who can defeat donald trump in november. in an exclusive interview with george stephanopoulos, president biden was asked about his fitness to serve. >> elections are about the future, not the past. there are about tomorrow, not yesterday, and the question on so many people's minds right now is, can you serve effectively for the next four years? >> george, i'm the guy that put nato together, the future. no one thought i could expand it. i'm the guy that shut down. i'm the guy that put together the south pacific initiative. i'm the guy that got 50 nations to help ukraine.

when the guy that got the japanese to expand their budget. so i mean, for example, when i decided we needed to have 40% computer chips [ inaudible ] we used to have 40%. we were down to virtually nothing so i get in a plane against the advice of everybody in flight to south korea and convince them to invest billions of dollars in the united states. now we have tens of billions of dollars being invested in the united states bringing us back to a position where we on that industry again. >> addressing his poor performance of the debate, biden said he had a cold and it was just a bad night. >> i guess the question, the problem is here for a lot of americans watching us, you've said going back to 2020, watch me to people that are concerned

about your age and 50 million americans watched that debate. it seemed to confirm fears they already had. >> well, look, after that debate i did 10 major events in a row including from 2:00 in the morning after that debate. i did events in north carolina. i did events in georgia. i did events like this. large crowds, overwhelming response, no slipping, and so i just had a bad night. i don't know why. >> biden reiterated that nothing will convince him to step down from the race and lessen his words, the lord almighty comes down and at one point, george stephanopoulos asked him to reflect. >> are you sure you are being honest with yourself when you say you have the mental and physical capacity to serve another four years? >> it's the last thing that i want to do, to not be able to meet that.

i think some senior economist and foreign-policy specialist say if i stop now i go down in history as a pretty successful president. no one thought i could get done what i got done. >> are you being honest with yourself about your ability to defeat donald trump right now? >> yes. yes, yes, yes. >> we will hear more from president biden as he continues to campaign in next week when he is expected to hold a solo news conference during the nato summit in washington. joining us now, and be seen as senior political reporter to pour plus white house correspondent mike bromley who is with the president in wisconsin ahead of the abc interview and white house reporter for the washington post. thank you to all of you for joining us. mike, i want to start with you because you have literally

known joe biden the longest. you have traveled with him for a long time. there is no question, regardless of how he answers george stephanopoulos. we are all older than we were seven years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. what is your sense of how he responded, and what is the biden world's sense of how he performed tonight? >> well, the view of the campaign tonight is that when you take tonight's interview in which they believe he took every tough question george stephanopoulos could muster and combine that with the rally that i was covering here in wisconsin this afternoon, you see a president who continues to energize and motivate a core group of supporters who were in that room, but also still has the values that got him into this office in the first place and is focused on the right things for the voters and can still beat donald trump. as i have been looking at my phone every minute since this interview was over, it's not clear to me that the audience he needed to reach and convince

tonight was satisfied. a lot of democrats have been talking to throughout the past week feel like it is been maybe two steps forward but three steps back, that maybe this interview would have been more effective had he done it in conversation with the rally last week in north carolina, the day after the debate rather than something that builds over time, took on a super bowl type level of importance by the buildup to this tonight, and so watching president biden there, i just see the person i've been covering now for over 16 years now, somebody who is very proud , proud of his record. he thinks he has done more in four years as president than any president before him. he thinks he still can and will beat donald trump. the audience that needs to be convinced, though, is in his party, and i think everyone watching tonight is going to take away maybe they thought he held his own, but the debate performance last thursday, we can't overstate what a seismic moment that was in shaken the confidence of democrats and it's going to take a lot more than one rally and one interview to reassure democrats

and the stakes for every appearance going forward are so high that i think democrats are going to continue to be walking on eggshells until this is resolved. >> you read an interesting article in which you interviewed a lot of people about joe biden and the changes to him and you make an interesting point, and this is why i was asking mike about this. those who do not interact with biden regularly, such as democratic donors and foreign leaders, are often the ones who notice the change most acutely. senior aides who interact with biden regularly said they have not noticed stark changes, and that is pretty logical, right? we can all probably think about that in our own lives. if you don't see somebody for a year or two you'll notice they've gained weight, lost weight, look older, see him younger. the people encouraging biden to stick with this are family, friends, and people who work with him every day. >> i think that's exactly right. my colleagues today had a story about how senator mark warner,

who is the head of the senate intelligence committee, or chairs the senate intelligence committee, is working to convene a group of senators to try to convince president biden to exit the race and i think this is really important because senator warner is viewed as a very serious senator. he has a good relationship with the president. he has been critical at times of the administration but people have said his family, close aides are not likely to tell him to exit the race and if anyone is going to ultimately prevail upon him, it doesn't mean they will, it would be senators, given that he served in the senate for 36 years and i think in this article we did about the president's aging seeming to accelerate in the past three months, people mostly pointed to physical traits, the stiffer gait, which the president has acknowledged in recent days.

he moves around slower but they also mention more frequent lapses like briefly losing his train of thought before getting back on track assuming a little bit less lucid. one of the most striking anecdotes we got in that story is that leaders at the g-7 who typically only see the president once a year, every few months, if they come to washington for a bilateral meeting, were especially struck by how much older he seemed when they saw him and came away with the impression of wondering that he seemed able to do the job now but they could not fathom how he would be able to do it four years from now and i think that is probably the question a lot of voters are grappling with when they see him. he gives speeches. he was energetic at the rally in wisconsin today but i think the physical appearance in many ways bears on voters' impressions of whether he continues to do this job for another term. >> one of the interesting things from your reporting is that while joe biden was pretty clear, stephanopoulos must've asked him a version of this a dozen times, about which you consider stepping down and of course he said not unless the lord almighty comes down

himself, your reporting is otherwise, that he is torn between this idea of staying in and what happens if the wave of people calling for him to step aside gets substantially larger. >> that's right. a big part of the goal here for president biden was to try to assure the jittery anxious democrat that he is still up for this, that the debate performance last week was an aberration, not the norm. there are a lot of democrats who are skeptical and over the last 30 or 40 minutes talking to a bunch of democratic officials who watched that debate, i don't think he has convinced them. this was not the disastrous performance they witnessed last thursday. it is very clear however that he was not quite as incoherent as last time. he was able to put his thoughts together. he did this thing biden often does where he trails off into a

tangent and then he catches himself and tries to pivot back. i think people followed biden for a while are familiar with that but there were several things that stuck out to the democratic sources of spoken to. one democratic lawmaker texted me saying biden still looks shaky, even under controlled conditions. the last response is the one that has gotten democrats the most nervous where he was asking what happens if he loses to donald trump and biden said something along the lines of i believe i'm the best person to do this and if i give it my all and do my best and that's what it's really about. one democratic official text that they are sick to their stomach hearing that. he said this is not youth sports. it's about the survival of democracy and here he is saying that all i can do here is do my best and there's an element of denial here that is also sticking with some democrats about the polls, but the state of the race. we know joe biden consistently feels underestimated and he's got some legitimate beef in that regard, but when it comes to general election polls, the 2020 polls showed him crashing donald trump and he narrowly beat trump. this time, he has been losing. the pollsters don't say my

approval rating is bad so i think the question democrats are going to ask themselves is is he taking a clear eyed view of where he is in this race and will he give them something to try to turn things around because at this moment, i don't think democratic officials heard what they wanted to hear, which is a president that knows he needs to do something big to turn this around. >> there are a bunch of people for whom this discussion seems very important, and some of them are jittery democrats. some of them are at the chattering class. some of the punditry, and some of them, joe biden talked about in one of his responses when george stephanopoulos team to try to ask him to understand where this pressure is coming from and he said the media. i want to understand from your perspective, how should this conversation be going on, and where should it be going on? i don't buy the argument it should not be happening at all.

>> but what is the way to do this because your concern is that democrats have a tendency to eat your own. >> that's true. actually, some of it is campaign craft, that if your party is in power and you are going through a moment like this where your president needs you, you know, what do you do in that moment? so, you could say something like well, you come on tv or whatever and say you know what, been a great president the last four years. he is the entitled to make his own decision. behind the scenes, you recognize that you have some real issues you have to deal with. there is a time crunch. you don't have that much time till the convention with the general election. any party that replaces him is going to need money, is going to have to go there and introduce themselves to the voters. there is a lot that needs to happen behind the scenes that i

think one would be concerned is been brought to the public and that in itself does not sow confidence in the apparatus so the campaign craft is really important here, but from a media standpoint, i do think it is important to acknowledge that voters are thinking, how they are feeling, but also be able to not create an equivalency between what we are talking about with respect to joe biden, and everything donald trump has said that is been a lie every time he's opened his mouth, so there are questions -- >> this is what we've been talking about for eight days because the supreme court has done a ridiculous thing and donald trump is carrying on with project 2025 despite trying to disown it on social media. >> and, it is legitimate to want to hear more from joe biden in every instance, but especially now, but what i want us to be careful about is that if we don't hear from joe biden in these unscripted moments, as much as we may want, if he --

if we agree that he generally tells the truth in those moments, let's also say that that is far better than the number of times donald trump talks but lies every time he opens his mouth so it's like, how many lies is equal to that one truth, and we can't play that kind of game, that equivalency even if we want joe biden to actually be able to speak more, what is he saying? can we believe what he is saying? >> let me ask you that because joe biden, when talking about his economic successes, the price of drugs, but he really leaned into it and no president gets credit for this in their time, his international stuff. the south pacific, the stuff with china, the 50 countries you got together in ukraine, holding putin's feet to the fire, the expansion of nato and he even said and the middle

east peace deal and he quickly said that i hope will come to fruition, because we are discussing the fact that that might actually happen. those world leaders who have recognized or said that they have recognized some decline in joe biden, do they offset that with the idea that joe biden has been, in terms of foreign and domestic policy, a fairly successful president? >> they definitely recognize that he, in many ways, is a foreign-policy president. he was the chair of the senate foreign relations committee. he came into office with a lot of foreign policy experience. i spoke with a number of senior white house aides for this article who said while he was at the g7 that other leaders were looking to him for leadership on issues ranging from russians invasion of ukraine to china to a number of global issues. of course he came into office saying he wanted to strengthen alliances. he has overseen the addition of

countries to nato, which of course is not a small feat, so i think global leaders do recognize this but one of the important things to note here is that they have such heightened anxiety about the prospect of a second trump term . i talked to a number of experts and people who have spoken with these leaders who said european capitals especially have been long been planning for the potential of a trump presidency, trying to map out who would be in a trump administration, different ways to talk about increased spending among nato countries, things that would appeal to trump and after the presidents debate performance, those efforts took on a sort of heightened urgency because it made the prospect of truck coming into office more real, so i think while they may note that biden still seems mentally sharp, they are very concerned about his ability to beat trump and what it would mean if trump were to assume office and sort of see what we saw in the first or maybe even worse than before where he wants to pull the u.s. back from global alliances and rip up long-standing norms.

>> thank you very much. we appreciate your joining with us. basil is going to stick with me. when we return, one of the biden campaigns of staunchest defenders. we will get senator john fetterman's response to the interview and the news that some democrats are huddling to figure out a way forward. special coverage will continue after a short break. ill contine after a short break. the cockroach. resilient creatures. where there is one, others aren't far behind. well that's horrifying. always scavenging... ortho home defense max indoor insect barrier. one application kills and prevents bugs for 365 days.

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we are back with special coverage of president biden's first sitdown interview amid concerns over his ability to win re-election. joining our conversation now is democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. senator, it's good to see you again. thank you for being with us tonight. >> it's always been a pleasure and it is nice to see you again. >> you have a remarkable,

unique perspective on this is someone who struggled through some debate performances, was actually discussed about not being well enough to continue and then won an election. i want to hear your take on everything that has gone on in the last nine days with joe biden and tonight's interview. >> absolutely and thank you for bringing that up because i've been talking about this. i have been exactly where he is. of course, he's on a much bigger stage but mine was the biggest race in the cycle and everybody was convinced that we are done. look at what he's done. he is unfit and set all kinds of terrible kinds of terms and everything like that, and now right now i would like to remind everybody that all the polls, fetterman is going to lose and we are going to lose the senate throughout all of this and i would like to point out that two days ago, dr. oz is tweeting about constipation on x and i'm sitting in here now as a senator talking about why joe biden is going to be our guy.

>> let's talk about it wasn't like you were the subject is some big wave that got you elected, so what do you do in an instance like this? if you are joe biden -- everybody is giving joe biden advice tonight. stay in or get out, what do you think -- >> honestly, it wasn't a big wave and we actually did carry that, but i also say that all the experts are saying that the democrats were going to get destroyed in that 22 cycle and everybody said that well, you can't be seen with joe biden. he wasn't popular in our cycle. i was proud to campaign with him and i did that. he stuck by me and i'm sticking by him right now through this, too. he's been a great president and i would like to remind everybody watching right now, if it wasn't for joe biden, trump would be sitting in the white house right now and he would be running for his third term right now.

we'll have enough time to really make his case to those people after his debate, that have some concerns. >> let's underscore that a little bit and i think there are a lot of people concerned about what you just said, that donald trump is the other option at the moment. joe biden may make a different decision but there is a strange world that we are in in which we are discussing all of this about joe biden, given his record as president, when the other guy is actually involved in a conspiracy to dismantle democracy. he had some kind of weird post today in which he said he's never read this project 2025 thing but he disagrees with that even though he's never read it. this is serious. if donald trump becomes the president of the united states again is going to be a different world. >> yes well of course it's serious. my money is on the guy that kicked his ass in 2020 and it's always going to be close it was close in 2016 and in 2020 and in 2024 it's going to be there to it . donald trump is back

here and you know what democrats do? we panicked after a bad debate but after 34 convictions, felonies, the republicans show up and address like him and they go all in on trump. you know, maybe we could learn something here and just say like stand by our president through this and after 50 years and after almost four years as a great president, i think he's entitled to the support to make his case after a debate that we can all agree, it was rough, but again, i know what that is like. i am not the sum total of a bad debate and certainly the president is not, either. >> i think there might be four elected democrats calling for the president to step aside but there is talk tonight of a movement being led by senator warner of virginia. >> who is that? >> i take it you have not been involved in that conversation or been invited to it? >> yeah, it's like and any rate, if you want to trade the

president like you are entitled to your opinion, but enjoy your three minutes of fame, but otherwise, i'm going to stand with the president and i want to remind you that this would be donald trump's running for his third term if it wasn't for joe biden taken them out in 2020. >> does your standing by the president or your admonition that democrats could take a lesson from republicans, does that mean that you believe that joe biden should stay in the race, or your point is you are staying by him and that's his decision? >> first, i'm staying by him because he has been a great president. like i said, after 50 years of public service and taking out trump and getting us through a pandemic, he has successfully managed two foreign wars for ukraine and in israel and deliver the kinds of aid for taiwan against china throughout all of this and now,

our economy is the world's envy, over 200,000 new jobs, you know, just today that was announced and like everyone, all these experts were saying that we are going to have a recession and we are going to crater, and we are actually kicking ass. he must be doing something right and now after one debate, people are willing to throw them away? it's like i refuse to accept that and i'm going to push back against that in the strongest terms. >> the pushback involves your colleagues, elected officials and the party, people calling for him to step out, a lot of people in the media. what about the public? what about the public who saw that debate last week and worry about it, particularly 81 million people voted for joe biden in the last election. about 80 million people did not vote, registered voters who were not motivated enough to vote last time around. those are the people democrats need in order to win this next

election, right? >> i think what we need to win as we have to support joe biden and i want to address all the other crazy stuff that was happening even before this debate. we are going to abandon biden never going to walk away or i'm going to be uncommitted. congratulations. if you are panicking now after debate, you are willing to around with this before that because we need all in on this and if you think you're going to send a message as a democrat voting for someone else or throwing away your vote. guess what, the message wasn't 2000, that was tanking gore, and that's two terms of bush and if you thought you were going to be clever and send a message in 2016 and throw your vote away for somebody like stein well, congratulations, you know. that got us trump, so if you want to do this in 2024, if you want to play with that kind of a fire, you are really going to

-- you really have to own that kind of a burn. democrats and those kind of people that are concerned by having a second term of trump, all have to agree he may not have to be ordering candidate although i think he's been a great president you know, when you consider what the alternative is, just lean in and deliver a second term for joe biden. >> senator, good to talk to you as always. as i say, one of these days you'll get comfortable with me and come out of your shell and tell me what you really think. nice to see you again. >> thanks. it's always a pleasure. >> senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. we will continue to track reaction to president biden's highly anticipated interview since the debate that shook up the 2024 race. coverage continues. we will be right back. new dove helps repair it. so, if you shave it? (♪♪) dove it new dove replenish your skin after every shave. (marci) so, how long have you lived here? (opponent) over forty years.

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>> the contest for the president of the united states is not just about whether he or she knows what they are doing. it's not about a concomitant of people making decisions.

is about the character of the president. the character of the president is going to determine whether or not this constitution is employed in the right way. >> we are back with our special coverage of president biden's first sitdown interview since last week's debate led to questions over whether he should exit the presidential race. the president sought to reassure voters that he is the person who can defeat trump in november. let's bring into the conversation jennifer rubin plus staff writer for the atlantic tom nichols. basil staying with us as well. look. tom and jennifer, i've been reading everything you published in the last week and despite the fact that you don't have the same position on this, i think you would both agree, i will start with you, tom, that the character is the issue. you both think we should think different things about whether joe biden should stay in the race but tom, you made clear that character is the issue and everything needs to be done to ensure donald trump is not the next president of the united states. >> right.

i think a lot of this debate has gotten off the rails with people now going into an argument that because of i think legitimate concerns about whether joe biden can get through this campaign, i think he can do the job but i think the campaign is different and winning a campaign is different than doing the job that somehow that means we are really having a debate about whether joe biden is better than donald trump. there's no question about it. joe biden is vastly better than donald trump. i've written repeatedly that i think he has a remarkable first- term record and the notion that somehow because of the debate, you know, that we are back to square one and saying well we really don't know anything about either of these guys so we have to start all over again, that is not what is happening here and i think the people that are doing that -- i think there are a lot of folks who don't want to talk about this, are purposely pushing it to that because that's an entirely different subject. >> how do you think they should play out at this point? >> what has been tried has not worked. put it that way.

one interview is obviously not going to satisfy many people. also, democrats who have gone to him or have had questions or have spoken on background have not been nearly explicit enough because he has not heard from them in one uniform voice, this is not going to work. if nancy pelosi, jen clyburn, hakeem jeffries, some of his closest and dearest colleagues from delaware were absolutely flat out honest with him and said this to his face, he perhaps would not be living in a world in which he thinks everything is fine. i totally agree with tom on two things. one, it's not a question of who is better. frankly, if joe biden were in a

coma i would vote for him because the name of the game here, and it's not a game, is keeping someone who is committed to destroying the constitution out of office, and the second is that i think there has to be a limited period of time. democrats have to be clear. jim clyburn said you got a get out there, you've got to do town halls, you've got to satisfy people. give them a time limit. set some reasonable expectations and then if he does it and they still feel that the polls are headed in the wrong direction, that this is becoming a desperate situation, then they have to either publicly or forcefully, explicitly to his face tell him some hard news, and i can't think of anyone better if it comes to that than nancy pelosi. >> tom, you know, one of the things you wrote about, i don't think you use the term, but you basically said even the less fit than you think he is joe biden would be a better

president, part of that is because it takes a village to be a proper president. donald trump does not express that. donald trump says i alone can fix it and he's smarter than everyone in the room so you actually worry that donald trump is president is a destructive force. that said, you are not really questioning, as i read your writing on this, you're not really questioning joe biden's ability to be president and to be a good president in a second term. you are simply worried about his ability to win the presidency at this point. >> yes, and thank you for being clear about it because of course again, to even raise that question, people then think that you are raising -- joe biden is not a good president, that he's not fit, that he's not capable. my only concern is who can get to 271 electoral votes and defeat donald trump, which i think makes me not a democrat, but part of a pro-democracy coalition that understands that donald trump is a mentally disturbed would be autocrat who wants to destroy the constitutional structure of the united states. if joe biden can do that, great. but i think in the past few days, president biden's

behavior, including tonight in the interview, i'm sorry to say, raises the question of are you really up to this fight? can you actually do this and prevent this from happening and i don't think he has answered that question and i know jenna and i were supposed to disagree but i agree with her completely. there has to be a time beyond which people say okay, it's not going to happen, and again, if he can do it, terrific. i have written like i said many times that i think joe biden has done a great job but it can't go on forever and i think we all knew after the debate, the idea of just limping along and pretending all the stuff didn't happen just was not an option in the real world of politics. >> clearly there is an amount of time and i don't know what the amount of time is but fortunately this june or july now and not august or september , but was this a conversation that should've been had earlier, and if not, why not?

>> well, we can say it should have, and i think it actually was, to some degree, but the problem was when you have an incumbent president who is doing well, we have a very strong economy, as people have pointed out, presidents with these kinds of records don't lose election, that there was no way he was going to, at that stage, decide now, i'm not going to run. people did raise the issue but no one in the democratic party, and i think this is probably wise, wanted to actually primary him because when incumbent presidents get primary, the generally please. see jimmy carter, so i think it would've been nice to have had this and been able to convince him and be certain of the alternative, but we are where we are, and i would add two things very briefly. one is, i think the period of time that we have had has at least disabused people of the

notion that if he does step away , we are simply going to spin the dial and pick some somewhat unknown white governor from the middle of the country. that is not happening. the choice will be, do we have a presidential candidate who can win in the person of joe biden or in the person of kamala harris and to the extent to which that conversation has sort of been had, and people in the democratic party are coming to the conclusion yes, it's going to be hurt and by the way, she has some really good skills because no one has been more effective on abortion and no one is quite going to get under his skin like kamala harris. at last -- at least that is a positive development. >> thanks to all of you. basil is still staying with me. coming up next, special coverage continues after a

break. coverage continues aftera break.

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president biden's interview tonight comes at a pivotal time for the 2024 election. the next week of events for biden is considered to be absolutely critical. two by the needs and one former official with knowledge of the discussions told nbc this before friday's interview. the president is aware that he needs to perform well in public appearances over the next few days, and that anything short of that could cement public opinion that he should leave the race, according to sources. joining basil and me at the table, i'm very curious what you are making at all of this, particularly today. joe biden had a very strong rally performance and then he had a performance in an interview in which the jury is still out. >> one thing that i've been doing immediately after the debate is talking to voters in battleground states and i can

tell you there is a coalition of cordial biden fans but acknowledged he performed poorly at the debate but still plan on standing behind him. i had voters that told me i feel sad but this isn't about voting for joe biden is much as it is a voting against donald trump so there's standing behind him. i texted tonight to see what answer i was getting is that they want to see more of this. it is not completely assuaged concerns people have over joe biden's age but at least his doing these interviews and ramping up the campaign, going to more states, making himself most accessible, that helps his cause. >> after seven years of this nonsense, four years of donald trump, three years of joe biden with donald trump hanging around in the background, you would think there is nobody left in america who could possibly think a debate performance is going to change your vote to the other guy, and yet we are here. >> it may not change their votes to proactively then go vote for donald trump but it may slow their enthusiasm.

which essentially is a vote for donald trump. so that is you know, that is the chief concern. does this tamp down some enthusiasm for joe biden, even if you really do want to defeat donald trump but i think there are three things that i think democrats would find good use in. one, or senator john fetterman's. that kind of defense of the president i think is sorely needed by the president in this particular moment. also, what jennifer and tom talked about is going to be really critical, this time period is very important because even though we can be dismissive of polls from time to time, pulls to signal to donors for to give their money so polling is going to be important. four donors come out on all of this is important and you know, their ability to say to joe biden, like we want you to make a decision but if you're going to do it, we've got a go now

because we need to get behind the neck so the timing is critical and third, something we have not really touched on in terms of project 2025, which i want to raise, is what to reggie b and send it the other day at the b.e.t. awards. the fact that the person who clearly cares deeply about the issues talked about it on the stage for you would not necessarily expected and in the next couple of days my timeline is full of 2025 so that is one of the projects democrats have, is to start getting folks like that, people who may not be at the forefront of talking about these issues to do so. >> donald trump today posted that he's not involved in project 2025. the whole thing is designed for him at the heritage foundation is given an interview on this network to my colleagues to say this is what's going to happen. >> i think the last part is the way you get folks engaged, not just for joe biden, but everything joe biden stands for.

>> tell me, nnamdi , or voters is jittery and nervous as the chattering classes about this? they might have agreed that the debate performance is terrible . tell me how does that manifest for them? >> honestly, the voters i've spoken to, not much is change for them since november in the sense that they are all very pragmatic. it is not always been that they are super enthusiastic to go out and vote for joe biden again. but, the real question when i speak to them is who is the better alternative, and a lot of photos i speak to, even after the debate performance, even though they acknowledge joe biden may sometimes not be at his best, still feel he may be the best option democrats have been there is also the sense of a reality check from voters that maybe some in the media cluster pundits may not sort of grasp the way these photos do. at this stage of the race, the likelihood of not meeting someone else and having them take on the challenge of taking on truck, there is fear that

will not result in any tangible change that will help democrats so in my experience so far, but as i speak to, it's really a matter of making sure core constituencies are engaged and ready to go out on those moderate, independent voters who truly have not been tuned and not long or at least presented the two options, which is something the biden campaign is gone really hard on, presenting that contrast of it's not just joe biden. if you're voting for donald trump, project 2025, wrapping that into the message, as well. >> do you think anything change tonight? >> i don't think much change tonight, but one night was never going to do it. we've got to have more like that and again, more john fetterman's. when the independence to start paying attention, you want to hear more people like him defending joe biden and the democrats as a road map for the future. >> i appreciate your analysis. you spent a lot of time with me today so i appreciate that,

basil. nnamdi , it's great to see you in this role you are in, all the roles you take on for us, you always execute with aplomb, so thank you for all your doing. basil on nnamdi , thanks for being with us for our special report tonight. i will be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. for more reaction. the newest installment of the banned book club with legendary novelist tim o'brien. stay with msnbc throughout the evening. our coverage continues right after this. ight after this. nstalled on over a million homes. we've been protecting homes now for over 20 years. our patented technology offers total protection for your home and comes with a lifetime transferable warranty. the process is simple. give us a call to schedule your free gutter inspection. if you decide to move forward with the project, you put nothing down at all. 833 leaffilter or visit leaffilter.com today. i'll be honest. by the end of the day, my floors...yeesh. but who has the time to clean? that's why i love my swiffer wetjet. it's a quick and easy way to get my floors clean. wetjet absorbs and locks grime deep inside. look at that! swiffer wetjet.

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i'm craig melvin, and this is "dateline." i'm craig melvin, and thim, i'm so sorry"ng i'm craig melvin, and this is dateline. >> i remember telling him i'm so sorry