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saturday, july 6. >> breaking overnight, a defiant president biden saying he is staying in the race in his first tv interview since the debate. michael tyler from the biden/harris campaign will join us. >> donald trump using the supreme court immunity decision to try to get his documents case thrown out. >> all of a sudden the former president wants to distance himself from 2025. we will get your thoughts. welcome to the weekend. >> >> president biden is rejecting the possibility of stepping down after last week poor debate performance. at a rally yesterday in madison, wisconsin, biden said he is confident he can be donald trump in november. last night, the president sat down with a 22 minute exclusive

interview with abc news anchor, george stephanopoulos, where he addressed concerns about his age . >> you have the mental physical capacity to do it for another four years? >> i would not run if i did not think i did. i am running again because i think i understand best what has to be done. we are on our way. we are on our way. >> joining us now msnbc political analyst and columbia university professor practice, basil's michael he is the former executive director of the new york state democratic party and jennifer horn, former rnc executive committee member. she is also cofounder of the lincoln project and host of is it just me, or have we lost our minds podcast. jennifer, i was all will always love that. welcome to both of you. >> thank you. >> basil, you and i were

talking before the show and going, where the are we and why is it happening this way ? talk to us about the presidents response in interview. also, give your sense of why this is happening still, a week after the debate. >> so, there is a question as to whether or not all of this conversation about joe biden is the sign of a healthy party. this is not 2007 where we are in a primary between barack obama and hillary clinton and have a year or two years to watch these amazing figures on full policy wise, politically, in front of us. we are four months away from the general exit. millions of voters have already cast a vote for joe biden. if you have concerns about his age, i think that is already in the voter at this point.

to me, what is not being addressed, is the real fear and worry, concern that the individual voter has about the future right now. what did not happen after the debate that's like you can talk about if joe biden accomplished what he needed to bring the debate -- >> and we certainly have. >> we certainly have. to me, the response should have been, as john federman said, i support my guy and here is why i support mike i. if you have a concern about what's on the other side, let me tell you about what the choice is. i'm going to frame this choice for you. instead, what has happened, is this worry and concern, openly, about joe biden. my problem with it is, are you doing anything to allay the concerns and fears of the voter in this moment four months from the general election? i do not know that all of this conversation does that. if you are looking for, most

democrats tell me they do not think the party is strong enough. a sign of strength would be to go out and be behind your guy and let him, give him the opportunity to say, okay, maybe i should not be the one let me give it to somebody else and let the party take us in that direction. >> you are giving the chairman giggles, simone, there is a threat from what i heard basil say over and over, which is we need to listen to the voters. >> yes. it needs to be about the voters they had i wonder, and i watched the interview last night and i'm looking at the reactions, correctly if you think i am wrong. i think there is a circular thing happening. there is the reaction of, i like to say political officials , elected officials, the donors, i understand why elected officials, their names

on the ballot especially if you are house member this fall and everyone wants to win. then there is the donors, the strategist and then there is the voters, and also there is the media apparatus and the reporters that have been covering the president who are looking at this race and we are hearing from some of the after mentioned individuals. it feels to me like the political professionals, and the media apparatus coverage can influence what the voters think or believe to be true. when you talk to people, because i talk to, we went to pennsylvania right after the debate happen, that sunday after, the majority of the women in the room were like, i'm going to stick with joe biden. i think we should stick with joe biden. some folks that after the debate i think everyone should drop out. i wonder now in the coming weeks , will they be influenced in their thoughts about what they believe to be true about the

coverage of it and what the donors and professionals are saying when the voters are supposed to elect the representatives. i don't know. i am working it out in real time. >> i think that is right. let me hone in on that last point. i think, when you have millions of voters who have already cast their ballot for joe biden, you have to remember, if there is a movement to replace him, what happens next is not going to be decided among the millions of voters who have already passed cast a ballot. there is a smaller group of people, that most of us may never know and see and through all of this, over the next few months, what needs to come from the party, in my view, and the supporters of joe biden, is a sense of stability. that is what the president ran on. he ran to lead a party of stability and good governance

riyadh i always go back to the split screen of trying to be the speaker and jeffries being elected as majority leader or being elected speaker or becomes minority leader. you have democrats in lockstep behind him. that is so important. that shows the sign of a healthy party. yes, i think the voters are going to look to some of the professionals for some sort of guidance. ultimately, in their gut, the concern, they are nervous, and the question should be, is the party doing anything to assuage those concerns in real time with being very clear about what the choices are going forward, as opposed to what is happening now, which is asking them to make a choice within a choice. hold on for the democrat versus trump, we have to make a choice between who the democrat is going to be. after a time, i will say this quickly, after a moment in time

, before the last several months to a year, even more, a lot of these same dems have been trashing kamala harris. what has happened to the ticket with all of this negative attention being placed on the ticket as we go into the general election? >> i want you to take a listen, jennifer, what the president had to say in madison wisconsin especially given that his team was hoping for a one, two punch, the president on the stump and then the president in the interview. we will come back on the other side. >> you probably heard, i had a little debate leslie, cannot say it was my best performance. ever since then there has been a lot of speculation, what is joe going to do? is he going to stay in the race? is he going to drop out? what is he going to do? here's my answer. i am running and i am going to win again.

>> jennifer, the campaign has been very clear, they think last night they turned the page, one, two punch, the rally, the interview, what do they need to do next? >> they need a lot more of joe biden on the stump. there is no question the president is strongest when he faces the crowds. he does very well when he is out talking to the voters face- to-face. he has a different level of energy in the clip you just showed that he had when he sat down with george stephanopoulos. that is the joe biden that people need to see. i would add to this, frankly, if i could, to add on to basil's comments about the party . i would suggest that the response of that very small number of democrats that have really come out after the president, and some of the media folks that have really come down on him since the election have done more damage and more harm than the president himself did during

that debate. for me, and millions of americans like me, this election is about the future of our country. it is about democracy. it is about getting away from the imperialistic, criminal presidency of donald trump and making sure that our children have a future that we can feel good about and be proud of. it is naove to think that at this point in the process you can switch candidates and still defeat donald trump. it is naove to think that the democratic party will come out of a contested convention more united and stronger than they are today. i think there is a lot more damage being done by folks other than joe biden when you look at how folks are reacting to this. >> you guys are going to stay with us, basil and jennifer, i want to continue this conversation, we need to talk about the conversations inside the campaign and the family. in the next hour, by this

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>> this is a guy who wants to undo every single thing i have done. >> i understand that and that's why you want to stay and you have convinced yourself that only you can defeat him? >> i have convinced myself two things, i'm the most qualified person to beat him and i know how to get things done. >> that was president biden in an exclusive interview with abc news anchor george stephanopoulos. back with us is basil smikle and jennifer warren. >> jennifer, i watch the interview last night with president biden. he has been consistent and clear. i can see if he was hedging his that with flowery language about we will have to see brett he is like, i ain't going

nowhere. what else do we need to hear from joe biden before we move on from is he going to drop out? who is going to help him come to a consensus? before we move from that to, this is the choice, are voters going to vote for joe biden or not? >> the time is now, simone, it is time to put it behind them. i am an independent. i used to be a republican, i am now an independent. i think i have a pretty good sense both from my position as an american, and the extremes that i have in politics, it is time for the democratic party to get behind their candidate if they want any chance of winning. the voters chose joe biden. joe biden made it very clear he is going nowhere. i thought he was very good in the clip you just showed. i can win and i can get the job done. that is what they need to hear. that is what voters want to hear

. everyone else around him needs to be repeating and uplifting in their messaging. i think it is a big mistake, whether you are a democratic operative, or you are a media person if you are talking about that debate and this candidate and you are not also talking about donald trump, then you are being dishonest with the voters who donald trump is, the actions that he wants to take that will hurt women, that will hurt the economy and hurt democracy. if we are not talking about that, then we are not being open and honest with voters. >> i appreciate that so much. i really wish democrats would understand exactly what they are doing right now to their opportunity this november four months from now. i just have never seen such a absolute creation of a wasteland around a candidate by his own people.

basil, you have senator mark warner trying to organize a group of democratic senators to meet next week to discuss what to do amid concerns about biden's electability and the potential for a drag on ballot race for the house and senate. sources familiar with the outreach told nbc news on friday, two the very important point you made, you trashed kamala harris for the last three years. a lot of folks in the electorate and certainly within the party say i don't think i want to do that. now you are trashing the president and you will have another meeting with senators. what the are these people thinking is going to happen when you turn to september and whether it is kamala harris at the top of the ticket, or joe biden, or, i don't know, pick a random democrat and make them the nominee, what do you think republicans are going to do with that?

the only commercial that they have to do is run the stupid things that are being said now. >> one of the first things i said in politics is come a does anything that can be used in a commercial against you. >> thank you. >> that is exactly what is happening. with respect to sarah warner, my reaction was, does chuck schumer know about this? what is he thinking. is king jeffries behind this? why are you undermining the leadership of the party that has to be out there not just talking politics but policy, and really important policy areas right now when you have these meetings. let me make this quick point and i think jennifer's point is very important in terms of what should be amplified. one of the single biggest things that happened for democrats in their favorite this week is that at the bet awards, we have not talked about project 2025. my feed is full of conversation about what that is and why we

should pay attention. what i would have loved to have see is the party somehow taking all of that energy and finding a way to focus it on a constituency of voters that they themselves have said are maybe not on the fence, but they need to do a little more work. >> wouldn't last night have been an opportunity? not on the part of the interviewer but on the part of the candidate who pivoted office said yes, i do not have a good night, we have talked about it enough, let's talk about project 2025. >> i have no doubt any leader looking at that debate last week, or the interview last night would say there was a lot that the president did not say. what you should do next is put together all of the talking points and messaging you need to and then go out and say it on his behalf. >> just quick, jennifer, that goes to a very important point that simone and i dance around a lot, that is preparation.

how do you prep the conversation to what alecia was saying, if you have this narrative, by the way, for the record started here on the weekend back in january about project 2025, we see bad things coming. thank you, sister. >> why aren't you all talking about it? >> now you have a moment where, i think if you're going to put the president out there, put him out there and arm him like basil just set. create a new narrative around the threat that is in front of you. everybody says, you did not tell us what you were going to do in the next term. i cannot get to the next term until i defeat this in front of me. how would you approach that? i am i off the base? >> that is exactly right. the president did have a chance

he talked about childcare and healthcare. it would have been great if he would have been able to pivot and get off defense 100%. he answered the questions that came to him and he said what he had to say. from project 2025, i don't know why every democrat in the country isn't running against 2025. so people understand, project 2025 is a widely organized effort amongst the most extreme republicans out there to institutionalize trumpism. so when donald trump is long gone, throughout our institution things like tracking women who get an abortion, things like the porting illegal immigrants by the thousands and the policies that trump has talked about at the border. things that will destroy our economy.

things that will destroy democracy in our country as we know it today. that is what the narrative should be. that is why, whether you are running for state rep, or president of the united states, that is why the democrats should be talking about. frankly, i am shocked that there are not more, whether it is cable news or other channels , that there are not more commentators talking about this as well. it has the potential to be devastating to democracy as we know it. >> we will -- that is the point right there. devastation. basil smikle, jennifer horn . thank you so much. >> next, with the focus on president biden, donald trump is staying quiet. i wonder why. that is next on the weekend. we. like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food,

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unusually quiet since the first presidential debate. there is a point to his silence. as the "new york times" notes, the former president has been content to let the news coverage of democrats doubting their parties leader take hold. >> the message discipline. simone, i am not accustomed to that level of discipline from the former president. >> i guess he is like, they are not talking about me right now so i will let it slide. i don't know, i feel like donald trump is happy he and his scandals are not in the news and people are focused on president biden. i guess the fallout from the debate performance. i take jennifer's point, every moment we talk about donald trump, we talk about joe biden and what he did in the debate and are democrats going to stick with him and is he going to drop out? which he said, i am counting at least six times in the last

couple of days and he is not dropping out and people are still saying, what is it going to take? is he mulling it over? we are not talking about what donald trump did on that debate stage. his performance a value was, i guess, fine, he met his mark on the stage. what he said was insane. he said some crazy things. abort the baby after three days. he wants to attack all these people. it is not coming together. donald trump is kind of getting away with the robbery, if you will, because we are all seeming to be singularly focused on joe biden and democrats and what they are saying about his performance. >> i don't understand the noise . i still have people texting and telling me, joe biden is going to resign. i am like, really? at what point does he do that?

does he do it now or afterwards? what do you think will be the outcome? i think what basil was saying, at this stage, okay, we all saw what we saw and we know what we know. joe biden is 81, we get it. we understand. the american people have largely baked this into their calculation. understand what the numbers are telling us. the numbers are telling us, going into this debate, joe biden was down six points. coming out of this debate after that horrific performance, joe biden is down six points, not 16, not 10, six. the voters understand, at least what they have in front of them. a lot of that speaks to the threat that while they see joe biden as old, they see donald trump still as problematic, something they do not necessarily want to go back to.

i don't get what democrats don't get about that. >> simone, as you know -- i'm sorry, did you want to talk to something? >> go ahead. >> we have two hours. >> there is a duality that the president and his team needs to do. they need to defend and present their vision for the future. i was struck by this exchange between the president and george stephanopoulos. it begins with stephanopoulos saying, mr. president, i've never seen a president with 36% approval get reelected. let's talk about that on the other side. >> with the president, i've never seen a president with 86% approval get reelected. >> that is not what our polls show. >> if you stay in and trump is elected and everything you're worried about comes to pass, how would you feel in january? >> i will feel, as long as i gave it my all and i gave the job all that i can do.

that's what this is about. >> what do you think about that's not my approval rating? what are your thoughts and number two, if he gives his all that is sufficient? >> on the he doesn't believe that is his approval rating, i think you should take joe biden at face value. i think he does believe that. in the aftermath of the interview i have heard people say the president is in denial. i don't think he is in denial. he is talking about what he and his advisors have spoken about and what he believes to be true. they may have some internal polling that we do not know about. i don't know. i think approval rating is approval rating. this interview was fine it did not do damage, it was fine. people are going to want to see more. i think the president himself seems to be reticent and understanding these are the kinds of things he will have to do going forward. buckle up, you all. we still have more things to discuss.

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according to new reporting from the "washington post", special counsel jack smith's team plan to continue the case against donald trump even if he is elected in november. sources say the new deadline will be inauguration day. the supreme court community really could complement complicate the timeline. the judge did not specify what evidence in the interference case could be admitted at trial. secures left to fight over what can be used in a series of yet to be scheduled hearings. joining us now is legal analyst barbara mcquaid, former prosecutor a law professor at the university of michigan and cohost of podcast. and also with the legal affairs analyst anthony cole, former's senior advisor for attorney general merrick garland. >> let me just roll my sleeves up on this one. i need the legal professionals to explain to me how jack smith is going to make this happen. all we have heard since jackson

is investigation got started is , if donald trump is reelected president, then this investigation and others go away. even chief justice john roberts went so far as to write this in a foot note in the immunity decision that came down the other day. how exactly will he continue this investigation? make it make sense. >> i do not know if he will complete it if donald trump is elected president in november. it is not just the defendant, it is the public that has a right to a speedy trial. i think the more progress he could make before president- elect donald trump goes into office, the more he can do at the other end. certainly, the things that have been deemed official ask such as donald trump's interaction with the justice department are going to go by the wayside. jack smith has the option of amending the indictment. you do not have to go to the grand jury to remove things from an indictment where they

found probable cause. he can pare this down to just those acts that he believes are official ask and go for it. it certainly won't be litigated but the public will have an opportunity to see what the unofficial acts were. organizing false slates of electors, pressuring state officials to flip the outcome of the election and exploiting the chaos at the capital on january 6 two try to press legislators to delay the certification. all of that is entitled to a public hearing. of course, also the documents case out of florida. judge aileen cannon has made no effort to act with urgency. no reason that case can proceed all the way through january to see how much progress they make. >> the interesting thing about the supreme court decision, besides the affront to the constitution itself and the fact that i think they were largely talking out of their behind's, or at least writing out of their behind's with this effort. donald trump and his legal team

were largely trying to use this decision as a weapon against all of the other cases both in florida and georgia. what you see happening in judge mershon's sentencing, the 34 count conviction, that has now been delayed. how does this weaponization of this case against the supreme court decision against these cases ultimately play out? >> good morning, michael. this is what happens. delays in these other cases, this is what happens when trumpism embeds the highest court in the land. when i say trumpism, what do i mean? the central tenet of trumpism is donald trump. it is not about the constitution, it is not about the laws, not about what is best for the country, it is the constitution and donald trump.

what we see is autocratic leaders across the world. i think you are right to be concerned when you have the nation's highest court not doing what is best for the country and not doing what's best for the constitution, but they are putting donald trump front and center. the other piece here, they are using donald trump as a proxy, in my opinion, for their nativist ideology and trying to take away women's rights, and the rights of black and brown folks, anyone who does not share their judeo-christian worldview. the downstream, what you're talking about, that is really what we are going to see have a negative impact on all of these cases, not just this federal election case, but also as barbara noted, the election documents case down in florida

as well. >> we talked about jack smith's next moves, let's talk about the judge's next move. she must take input from the prosecution and defense before ruling on which of trump's acts remain subject to criminal consequences. this is the part i want to ask you, the high court ruled out the use of evidence of some kinds of acts. she may have little choice but to dig into that evidence before she decides what prosecutors convention in front of a jury and what can be part of the official charges. if you are judge checked in, how do you proceed? >> they have to wait for the mandate, so she will not even get this case until close to august 1st. immediately i was at a conference and asked the parties how quickly they can be ready to go with a hearing to put forth all of the evidence that they will put in this case against donald trump and then she will have to make a decision about all of it. show me the documents, show me the text messages show me a

proper of the testimony, or put the witnesses on the stand that i want to hear what they will say because i have to make a decision about whether this evidence was part of the president's official ask. i think she will make a decision. i think, whatever her decision is, we will see an appeal that will go to the d.c. circuit court of appeals and the back to the supreme court . i don't think we get a final answer until sometime next year. however, it is that hearing that i could think could be and have collateral consequence of informing the american people how awful his conduct was >> barb and anthony, we need to talk about what the supreme court ruling means for his other trials. you're watching the weekend. we. i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better.

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donald trump's lawyers are trying to use the supreme court immunity decision to delay, and potentially end the classified documents case. in new court findings, team trump wants judge aileen cannon to determine whether the alleged president conduct is official or unofficial because the official conduct is protected by supreme court. in another filing the lawyers expressed interest in the immunity humidity ruling

written by clarence thomas that questions the legitimacy of smith's appointment. they are asking judge cannon to take that into question and ruled that jack smith was unconstitutionally appointed to be special counsel. barbara mcquade and anthony cole are back with us. >> this is what justice thomas wrote in that concurring opinion . the "washington post" headline is, thomas uses trump immunity really to question jack smith appointment. if there is no law establishing the office that the special counsel occupies, then he cannot proceed with this prosecution. justice thomas wrote, a private citizen cannot criminally prosecute anyone, let alone a former president. can you make this very clear for folks at home, what are these rules about the special counsel? when were they established? why would justice thomas right such a thing? jack smith is in fact lawfully appointed, is he not? >> he is.

the thing that is most appalling about this is neither party raised this in the case. they were arguing if the president has immunity for his official ask, instead he jumps in and says, by the way, the special counsel is not constitutional anyway and we should get rid of it. that is nonsense. there are federal regulations that will propagate it because there are concerns about the statute. the independent statute was upheld by the supreme court in the case called morrison versus olson. because there was some criticism and dissent in that case from justice scalia, the current rakes that we have now were promulgated to cut back some of the power of the special counsel and make him answerable to the justice department to avoid what justice scalia referred to as an unconstitutional fourth branch of government. it is absolutely lawful.

the idea is just giving some credence to the argument that is pending in the southern district of florida. maybe it gives judge cannon something to hang their hat on. ultimately, these will be upheld and the case will go forward. however, it does provide another basis. >> it is interesting for me to watch the continued deconstruction of the judicial system. it just really is amazing to watch this. to have the courts go along with this, anthony, i am struck by a twitter post by andrew wiseman on the sentencing delay. he says judge mershon moving the sentencing to mid-september is smart, it gives trump and da time to brief the issues but he will ultimately reject the week trump claims and the new mid- september sentencing date will make it very hard for trump to then be able to appeal this before the election as he will

have to appeal within new york state courts first. there seems to be a little bit of some chess play here between what the supreme court is trying to blow up and what judges like mershon and chuck can are trying to do to salvage their cases. how do you see it? is andrew on point with his tweet? >> i think he is. i think what we saw judge marchand do at what he has continued to do throughout the trial is take crude and appropriate steps. i think this delay was a good housekeeping step that would allow both sides, both the prosecution and defense to provide briefings to the judge, after this opinion. the larger question in the room here, michael is, what the

ultimate punishment will be. i am of the opinion that everyone does not share this view, i think donald trump should already have been in jail for any number of his actions, not just in this case that you are talking about with judge marchand. this is a guy who violated a very narrowly tailored gag order 10 separate times. if you and i had violated a gag order, we would not have the luxury of spending our nights in between these judicial appearances and our own beds. i do not know if judge marchand is going to take that step. that is unfortunate. i think he is weighing all of the facts in this case. i think he is listening to the probation officer. i think he understands that donald trump is a first time, nonviolent criminal offender. i do not know if he is actually going to impose any type of

incarceration. if he were, i would expect him to stay that decision until donald trump exhausts all of his appellate rights. >> barbara, we have talked about new york, we talked about the two jack smith cases, let's talk about georgia. that case is essentially frozen while an appeals court decides whether or not to disqualify him . let's say they move past that hurdle, this from nbc, trump can't terminate georgia quote because it is a state case, trump would not be able to terminate if he wins the election in november as he would theoretically be able to do with the two pending federal criminal cases against him. however, tom's lawyer argued in december that if trump were to be elected again he would not be able to stand trial until after he left office. barbara, if he were to win a second term, georgia becomes the game >> i think that's right.

>> that indictment relies on many of the same facts as the federal case, i think we are going to say see the judge go through the same exercise that we discussed that judge will have to go through deciding what is an official act and what is unofficial. similarly, i think some of that indictment gets pared down. i think much of it remains the same as we discussed, false slates of electors, pressuring state officials to change the outcome of the election, using the chaos at the capital to try to delay the certification of the election, all of that will go forward. it may be the case it does not go forward if donald trump is not elected until 2029. that is because of the idea that a sitting president cannot go through a trial. although it might be that wants to push that issue, i doubt she will be successful with this court. that would mean trial in 2029, if donald trump is elected. if he is not elected we can see a trial in 2025. regardless of whether that

happens in 2029, donald trump could not ask his attorney general to dismiss the case, or pardon himself because it is the state prosecution and ultimately that might be the best bet for holding donald trump accountable for his attack on the 2020 election. >> all right barbara mcquade and anthony thank you very much. don't go anywhere. there's another hour coming up. we have frank, julie wind banks, julie tsirkin and michael tyler. follow our show at the weekend msnbc. period active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone.

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welcome back to "the weekend." this week the supreme court cleared the way for donald trump to! the powers of the presidency. this is, of course, if he wins another term. he will be unfettered by the laws of every other person in america. we discussed the bombshell ruling that the conservative majority said president's term you forgot -- prosecution from anything, anything that is an official act. justice sotomayor said he will

be insulated from