does something that it has an impact. so let's do that. >> yes, i think that is right. i will note that sarah, he has brain worms. all who might be on the ballot somewhere but i don't think i don't think that cuts the other direction. quickly, do you think that, do you think there's more upside for harris at this point? >> i do. i think if nothing else, right now we need, there needs to be a burst of energy. right? there needs to be a new area. in the voters, look, the people who are going to vote for joe biden, now believing he is much diminished, those people are going to vote for kamala harris. and so really it is about searching for that outside, prosecuting the case again pro against trump, something joe biden right now has demonstrated he's not going to be able to do. her new book is out now. check it out. have a great night. that is "all in" on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right

now. i'm sorry, i'm 20 seconds late. >> nobody would have known. lovett and longwell is an awesome way to end the show. for the last two weeks donald trump has been kind of quiet, kind of. the reporting has been that trump is ceding the spotlight and keeping a low profile. then last night donald trump got back on the mic. >> a waitress came over, beautiful waitress and i don't like talking about this because she's beautiful on the inside. the other day i got angry, some man called chris christie fat. and i said, sir, and then he said he was a pig. i said, sir, chris christie is not a fat pig, please remember. he is not a fat pig, please take it back. and he's looking at me like -- no, we have to defend people.

i said it about nine times he is not a fat pig. >> trump veered wildly from topic to topic using his favorite advice of i would never say what i'm about to say and attack an opponent in some of the coarsest language you can still say on television. that is a reminder of the character of donald trump and also a reminder what trump did to the republican party. chris christie used to be considered a rising star. he was a popular republican governor who managed to get re-elected in a blue state. but chris christie refused to bend a knee to donald trump. dissenters have a choice. they can either get humiliated by trump or one day humiliate themselves. most of trump's rivals choose the second option. trump's most influential

opponent in the 2024 republican primary was former governor nikki haley. trump called her a birdbrain, insulted her husband's military service, and made thinly veiled racist comments about her indian heritage. two months ago nikki haley said she would vote for donald trump, and this week haley announced she would be turning over her delegates at the republican national convention to donald trump. another act of submission and personal humiliation. trump's second biggest rival for the nomination was florida governor ron desantis. trump referred to desantis as meatball ron, and after rumors began swirling that desantis wore lifts in his shoes, trump decided to compare desantis to a, quote, 10-year-old girl walking around in her mother's heels. trump's super pac even released a 30 second add of a fake desantis smearing his face in

chocolate pudding based on an anonymous anecdote about governor desantis allegedly eating the dessert with his fingers. the ad was called pudding fingers. the day desantis dropped out of the race, what did he do? he endorsed donald trump. today we learned governor desantis will be speaking at the republican national convention in yet another act of fealty to donald trump as well as an act of personal humiliation. that is the republican party today. a party where people who absolutely loathe their candidate, who have been publicly humiliated and shamed by him must pledge to support that candidate, and they do. now, compare that to america's other major political party, a part that for all of its faults does not use retribution or cruelty to keep its members from speaking their minds. a party where people who respect their candidate can nevertheless voice dissent and do.

today was yet another day of big developments in the democratic debate over whether president biden should remain the party's nominee. it began this morning when speaker emerita nancy pelosi declined to say whether or not she personally believes president biden should still be running. >> it's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. we're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. >> he has made the decision. he has said firmly this week he is going to run. do you want him to run? >> i want him to do whatever he decides to do, and that's the way it is. whatever he decides we go with. >> it is not exactly a ringing endorsement. the impact of pelosi's comments was amplified by the release of a new opinion ed, editorial, an op-ed as it's known from actor and democratic governor george

clooney. in "the new york times" clooney wrote we are all so terrified by the prospect of a second trump term we've opted to ignore every warning sign. as democrats we collectively hold our breath or turn down the volume whenever we see the president who we respect walk off air force one or walk back to the mic to answer an unscripted question. is it fair to point out these things? it has to be. this is about age, nothing more, but also nothing that can be reversed. we are not going to win in november with this president. on top of that, the past 24 hours have seen a flood of concern from democratic senators. >> i am deeply concerned about joe biden winning this november. >> i'm very concerned. it's going to be a close race. >> i just think this race is on a trajectory that is very worrisome. i think we could lose the whole

thing. >> then there was this from the only sitting democratic senator to have ever been on a presidential ticket. >> i have complete confidence that joe biden will do the patriotic thing for the country, and he's going to make that decision. he's never disappointed me. he's always put patriotism and the country ahead of himself, and i'm going to respect his decision. >> tonight vermont senator peter welch became the first democrat in the senate to publicly call for president biden to step aside. two additional members of the house today joined nine other democrats in calling for the same. biden must not stay at the top of the ticket. whatever the outcome here, it is clear that these calls are making the biden campaign concerned. politico reports also tonight that the biden campaign has been calling pledged delegates to the democrat national convention to make sure they still support biden, and they are discovering cracks in that coalition. so it's clear that the

democratic party is not united right now, very clear. but what gets lost in all of the dems are in disarray headlines is that these disagreements are in a way a feature and not a bug. they are a sign of a party that has not given up on the small "d" democratic principle of open and respectful debate. they are a sign of a party with a very large tent and with lots of ideas and with a whole lot of energy. throughout his presidency joe biden has made clear that one of the central challenges we face as a country is proving that democracies can hold their own in a world where authoritarianism is on the rise. and that is also the challenge for the democratic party right at this very moment to prove to the country and the world that a system where people can respectfully voice their disagreements is capable of producing the best outcomes for

everyone. joining me now are tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark. and mark leibovich, staff writer at the atlantic. gentlemen, i know you have big thoughts about what's happening, but i first want to talk to you about the semiemerging strategy inside the party, which you heard it from tim kaine, you heard it from nancy pelosi, which is i will respect whatever decision the president makes, tim, even though in a very clearly worded letter to congressional democrats, the president said my decision is i'm staying in the race. is that -- first of all, what do you make of that strategy, and do you think it's going to be effective? >> look, i'm going to defer to tim kaine and the senators that served with biden over what is the most effective strategy to encourage joe biden to do the right thing. and if this is what they think

is the appropriate approach, they don't want to embarrass him at a time of nato or they think private entreaties make more sense, that's possible. i'll defer to them. i met joe biden one time in a picture line, so i don't know joe biden personally, so i'll defer to them. what i'd encourage them to do and frustrating to some rank and file voters about, everyone's been talking about this in the democratic party is if he is going to stay in the race, which as he says he is, i hope they would encourage him to have a much more aggressive and forward leaning message and strategy towards targeting donald trump. it was just yesterday that we saw i think the first time the words "project 2025" come out of the president's mouth on a video. you know, we've been talking about -- i was talking about it on the podcast website last year. you've been talking about it for months. the amount of things donald trump is going to do that a

threat, that is what everyone wants to have a focus on. it's hard to focus on that right now. i think part of that is because of this uncertainty and big debate you're talking about. i agree i think there's some unhealthiness happening in the debate. but i think what's missing here as long as joe biden kind of keeps this in limbo, it's hard to focus on that, and the campaign isn't focusing on that. and so i think that's creating some frustration. >> i do want to talk -- i mean and i'm not suggesting anyone knows what outreach is going to work with joe biden, but i do think everyone in this three box can sort of talk about how this moment is unfolding inside the party. and, you know, it's clear that elected democrats who would like to see him depart the top of the ticket are not going to be aggressive. but i will say, mark, there are other people outside of elected office who are being very clear about what thaw think should happen, and you are one of those

people, mark leibovich. this is from your piece in "the atlantic" today. it is now obvious biden has in no way internalized the disaster toward which he is defiantly ambling or more to the point, toward which he is leading his party and his country. he seems fully indifferent beyond all possible doubt the consideration of his own withered pride and raging ego. can you talk more -- i'm sensing frustration and anger on your mart, mark. and i wonder if you can talk about -- you're seeing this as an inherent character flaw of the president, not someone just quietly deliberating what the best choice for the country is. >> at this point i do. i will say this, compared to tim i've probably met president biden three or four times in a receiving line. there's a level of authority here tim could never dream of. i think before we move onto elected officials, people get caught up in the body count of how many members of congress, how many senators have actually formally called for him to step

aside. i think these very, very kind of hostage video-like endorsements from all these senators and nancy pelosi and all these other people are extremely damning. it kind of reminds me of mitch mcconnell a few weeks after january 6th saying i will support the nominee. a bare minimum hardly singing endorsement, but also really damning given what we have led to believe. they have real affection for the president. what's interesting about this is over the last two weeks we've been told the next 72 hours, the next 48 hours will be key, and what's been happening here is biden never comes out. he had a steflopdous interview. that was one week after the debate. we have to wait another week until we get this nato press conference tomorrow. you would think he'd be in a matter of days out in front of

this whether to talk about project 2025 or something else. but it does seem like he's kind of being led around by events, and it does seem with every passing day democrats are getting more and more nervous and possibly moving away from him. >> do you think, mark, you mentioned the press conference tomorrow. he'll not be an a teleprompter. they'll be televised. we'll have it live on this network. do you think that could be an inflection point in the decision making of all this? >> i think that will be what this week will bring. theoretically it's a nato press and conference and other leaders will be there, but clearly this will be given over questions on his age and fitness, and he's going to be given a lot of curve balls and in some ways a dramatic environment, but a real challenge in his nimbleness and challenge to think on his feet. this is going to be i think since the debate the first

realtime -- you know, test of how he is going to handle this. yeah, i think tomorrow, that's the big event of the week to this point. but i also think, again, they're running out of time. because in the next two days trump is going to pick his running mate, and that's going to probably dominate the week going into the republican convention, and at this point the die will be pretty well cast, and democrats at least for another week or so they'll be locked into this, and frankly they'll waste another week. >> tim, when you talk about the time's awasting part of this, which mark touched on, there's new reporting the coffers have dried up for biden since the debate. the money has absolutely shot off. two of the sources said this month they're on a path to be down in terms of fund-raising numbers by possibly half or much more from large donors alone. i mean, we talk a lot about money in politics, but i wonder

your assessment about how crippling this is to a campaign. >> i got to tell you, that's not my biggest worry. i don't think campaign ads are what's at stake here in this election. everyone is paying attention to this election, everyone is talking about it not just on cable news but on sports exchange and barbecues. this is not like a house race where people don't know the candidates. joe biden has been on tv in all these states running ads while biden had a huge cash advantage in the spring and early summer while trump has not been running out, and it's done basically nothing for him. he's still behind in the polls. so to me i don't think that is the problem here. obviously you'd rather have money than not. the problem here for the biden campaign is that they don't have a clear message. they don't have a message that's resonating with people.

and to mark's point about how he's not out there, he could get a lot more attention than any 30-second tv ad could get him by going out tomorrow and banging donald trump over the head with a clear and crisp contrast message about why joe biden and why not donald trump. and he didn't do that in the george stephanopoulos interview and we haven't really seen it since the debate. that is what's missing here, whether it's joe biden or someone else, there'd be a ton of attention galvanizing around someone who has a compelling and coherent contrast message to donald trump, and there's plenty to work would there. to me that's the thing i'd be worried about -- that's the thing i am worried about and something i'd be especially worried if i was on the biden campaign team. >> tim, do you worry in the interim especially in the last two weeks where trump has laid low, and i put that in quotation

marks, he's trying to establish himself as a norm core candidate by softening however sort of perniciously the republican national platform on guns and abortion and saying i don't know anything about project 2025, are you worried at all that works? >> i think it's working right now, but it doesn't have to work. going back to when people say the debate was one night, the problem is going into the debate, the biden campaign team and all of us were out there saying trigger trump, it's so easy, troll him, like remind people about the real uncut, crazy conspiratorial trump. there's plenty of opportunities to do that. you played somebody of the clips at the beginning of this. he's been kind of quiet, that he's been sending crazy bleeps on his social media feed about susan glasser -- he sends insane things every day if people just read them. i think there's plenty of time not just next week but even

after the democratic convention, between the democratic convention and election day to remind people how insane and extreme this man is if there's a campaign and a candidate that are willing and able to do it. >> there's a lot of crazy you can pack into 120 days. tim miller and mark leibovich, thank you for your time tonight, guys. i appreciate it. coming up kanye's ex-girlfriend, a bull dog. new details on a cast of characters slated to speak at the rnc next week and what it tells us about trump's inner circle if he wins a second term. but first what is really happening on capitol hill behind the scenes as president biden and his party try to figure out the future? that's coming up. y to figure ou the future that's coming up

as congressional democrats have family discussions over president biden's political

future, house democratic leader hakeem jeffries has told worried lawmakers in his party that he plans to relay their concerns directly to the president himself. president biden, for his part, has spoken to a select group of hill lawmakers including the congressional black caucus, which has voiced its support for biden. but a similar statement of support from the congressional hispanic caucus reportedly caused tension among members who felt it was released without the group's complete buy in. the president has also spoken to certain individual lawmakers, but as of right now he is not planning to call into a meeting with senate democrats tomorrow afternoon. instead, biden plans to send his campaign chair and senior advisers to speak with the senators instead. joining me now is jackie almany, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post." jackie, thank you for being here. i think a lot of us who don't cover the hill are kind of confused about the dynamics

here. one of the reasons we're focused so much on the hill is if there's a sort of engine for the keep biden in movement or take biden out movement it seems to be among the select group of the party. and this morning when nancy pelosi came on our network and suggested the sort of dlib rags were very much not over. >> yeah, alex, it's certainly been an emotional roller coaster for these lawmakers as they return to washington especially in the house. they've been really agonizing over this debacle in the weeks since joe biden's faltering debate performance. nancy pelosi certainly raised nem this morning with her comments on "morning joe." they were subtle but deliberate and very precise, and a really significant reframing of a

delicate but urgent conversation that is happening not just amongst law makers right now but everywhere in the party for democrats. but what pelosi really did was she sort of reframed this conversation. she is an institutionalist at the end of the day, so her making these comments was highly significant especially as a number of lawmakers who were privately crumbling about biden and his willing -- his unwillingness to hear from members, hear their concerns first-hand and maybe reconsider his decision, this is someone who they heard from who might now have opened the door for people to -- to sort of have the flexibility to potentially change their minds especially when it comes to biden's performance on thursday when he's going to have this press conference after nato. there's been a lot of talk on capitol hill about whether or not he's going to beable to deliver a performance performance that will finally

allay a lot of the concerns we're seeing. and there's sort of an expectation he's not going to be able to, and in that case what is the path forward? there's a feeling the former speaker is now making the way -- paving the way for lawmakers to have an exit ramp. >> do you have a sense of the sort of dynamics between democrats in the house and the senate on this topic? because up until literally a few hours ago when peter welch became the first senator to say biden shouldn't be at the top of the ticket, it had felt like typically the senate was taking a more deliberative path on this. but that sort of seems to have flipped in the last 12 hours with michael bennett and john tester, and peter welch publicly calling for biden to step down and their pockets of support for biden in the black caucus and the congressional house caucus. how are those dynamics playing out between the upper and lower

chamber? >> if there is commonality it's both chambers have been feeling the absence of robust communication and response that is satisfying to lawmakers in the house and in the senate, that they've lost even more confidence in biden and the operation around him. they were expecting sort of a full court pres, individual calls, outreach from biden and his team. they haven't seen that. so one house aide told me today -- and i know this is felt similarly in the senate, that if one of the top leaders in the party called the white house switchboard and tried to get through to president biden, they're not really sure anyone could at this point in time. all these concernvise been compounded in both chambers by the awful polling lawmakers have seen in a few days. i don't think it's a surprise you've seen a handful of new york lawmakers in the house suddenly tweak their previous statements and change their minds. representative pat ryan came out and said -- and was the eighth

or the ninth house lawmaker to call for biden to make a change and to give up the top of the ticket. so i think this lack of communication is something that both sides are struggling for -- are struggling with. and i think there's also this dynamic that both hakeem jeffries and chuck schumer are dealing with as well, which is there is -- there are still some divisions. there are still some members who feel like, yes, joe biden is an imperfect candidate, but he's never been impressive, and this is our lot. and by coming out publicly and continuing to criticize him, we're just making our electoral chances worse. we'll see, though, just how far, you know, those people are able to hold their ground within their caucuses. >> jackie, when you talk about holding their ground it feels like the people we hear most from, and again hedged comments

or statements are people skeptical of biden staying at the top of the ticket. i'm struck by the lack of sort of passion and support for this president given especially what the white house says is a, you know, vast number of voters out there who still support him. i mean, does that surprise you? >> it doesn't. i know we talked a lot about this public versus private conversation. i will say overwhelmingly my colleagues have spoken to dozens and dozens of lawmakers this week, and even the ones who have publicly articulated concerns in private. there is this sort of resignation that if joe biden stays atop the ticket, that he is facing defeat against president trump. i mean as one senior aide told me point blank, we have no path to take back the white house if biden stays at the top of the ticket. that's why nancy pelosi's comments this morning were significant even though they were quite subtle. she's someone who, again, lives and dies by the house, and at

the end of the day her priority was the house. she didn't feel democrats were in danger of missing the opportunity to recapture the house. i don't think we would be seeing this commentary and sort of this milktoast support for biden from her. >> jackie almany with "the washington post," thanks for your great reporting tonight. it's rely helpful. still ahead tonight? do you remember meat loaf? do you remember clint eastwood's speech to an empty chair sphif you thought the last few republican conventions were weird, just look who's talking now. that's next. weird, just look who's talking now. that's next.

don't stay home in november. stand and speak and vote your conscience. vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the constitution. >> back in 2016 ted cruz, one of the prime time speakers of the rnc urged republicans to vote for someone other than donald trump the day after donald trump became their official republican nominee. ted cruz was a man without a party that year. the 2016 convention was an inflection point for the gop. it was a sign that a new era had begun. >> we -- we do not need a

reckless president who believes she is is above the law. lock her up, that's right. yeah,thets right. lock her up. >> it's the first time a national party used the jailing of a political opponent as a crowd pleaser. and by the time the gop held its next convention, it almost seemed kwapt. day one of the 2020 republican convention revealed the party had gone full maga. the speaker's list included patricia and mark, a st. louis couple who two months earlier got famous for pointing their guns at racial justice protesters. >> they're not satisfied with spreading the chaos and violence into our communities. they want to abolish the suburbs altogether no matter where you live. your family will not be safe in

the radical democrats america. >> here's how the rest of that week went. >> joe biden is basically the loch ness monster of the swamp. >> this decision is preserving everything as we know it and eliminating everything we love. >> ladies and gentlemen freedoms and fighters for freedom and liberty and the american dream, the best is yet to come. >> so what happens this year when the 2024 republican national convention heads to milwaukee? well, the rnc is still finalizing its list of speakers. the full line-up is set to be announced this week, but here is what we know so far. a 62-pound english bull dog named baby dog is expected to take the stage alongside its owner, gym justice, west virginia's governor and senate candidate. both arizona senate candidates kari lake, an election denier who recently urged voters to strap on a glaucto prepare for the election, and congresswoman

marjorie taylor greene, a conspiracy theorist who cysts the january 6th investigation was illegitimate and some school shooters were conscripted actors, both of those women have speaking slots. and then there's amber rose, a model and former girlfriend of coni didn't west who spoke against donald trump's candidacy back in 2016 and is now in her maga era. rose asserted trump supports the most reasonable compromise on abortion. it ain't cats but sure is cast like no other. and reads into what party invites these kind of speakers and what kind of candidate keeps this kind of company. on that front today "the new york times" published a fascinating piece uncovering how mar-a-lago has been transformed into the nerve center of the most extreme elements of the maga movement. one of the reporters on that piece joins me next to discuss

just who exactly is flocking to trump's white house in exile. trump's white house in exile

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national convention kicks off with four days of pageantry for donald trump, but the maga festival we are expecting will be just a taste of what goes on down at mar-a-lago on a daily basis and just a glimpse of what a second trump white house might look like. a new "the new york times" analysis shows that mar-a-lago has become a gathering place for some of the most extreme factions of the right-wing.

the analysis found that events hosted by ultra-right organizations and political fund raisers now dominate mar-a-lago's calendar and even officially nonpolitical events can feel like rallies. in this guilded echo chamber mr. trump enjoys unwavering devotion and collects the stagger price of admission. joining me now is david fahrenthold, who's an investigative reporter for "the times," and his byline is on this amazing and interactive new reporting. david, thanks for joining me. you know, i think a lot of people wonder how the maga sort of world view has come to be crystallized, and it feels like mar-a-lago plays an instrumental role in sort of cementing this -- the trump narrative in trump's own mind and rallying the maga troops. who is -- who is now populating the halls of mar-a-lago from your reporting? >> well, it's been a huge shift. as recently as 2017 most of what happened in mar-a-lago was sort of palm beach society balls, red

cross, salvation army, that sort of thing. that year in 2017 because of what trump said about the rioters in chival and there were very fine people among them, a lot of those society clients left, and for a while there was a sort of hole in the social calendar at mar-a-lago, but now that has been filled by a whole new set of people, and some of them are in political campaigns including trump's own, but a lot of them are nonprofits or other groups aligned, and so nonprofits started by his administration alumni, started with people like mike flynn, these people who are basically taking the conspiracy theories that sort of trump's voters believed in before, and now sort of making them into policy, making them into a movement and bringing them sort of the forefront of mar-a-lago where, you're right, physically they're together with the republican main stream, and they start to refuse the republican mainstream. >> and when you talk about the conspiracies that are accepted as truth, i mean we're talking about fringe ideas including the

pizzagate theory, which i'd love for you to expand upon and other loony tunes ideas that have no basis in reality, but inside the walls of mar-a-lago, that's what actually happened. that's fact, is that right? >> that's right. frequently people -- this is not just someone talking in a corner somewhere, these are people on a stage speaking at events in mar-a-lago's ballroom with trump there, they say this 2020 election was stolen, january 6th is somehow setup by the feds, and as you said pizzagate is real. those of you who don't remember pizzagate there's a conspiracy there's a pizzeria here in washington a place where democrats molest children and eat them. and an outlandish conspiracy theory where they're in that bubble and say it's true. you can find a bunch of other people who can deny it with you. >> i think what should bring chills down everyone's spine as you say this is not relegated to

mar-a-lago, right? donald trump is the presumed nominee. this is a place where his aides gather. this is a place where this kind of conspiracy fear mongering is infecting other republicans. do you think like the trump hotel in washington, d.c. mar-a-lago is representative of -- of the sort of trump project and the people who are in mar-a-lago now talking about pizzagate, talking about how january 6th was an inside job, that those are the people you're going to see at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. i mean do you get the sense these are the loyalist trump will want to bring with him if he goes back to washington, d.c.? >> i do. and that's important to remember as we think about trump in a potential next term. people think, well, you know, there was a lot of craziness in his first term but nothing much changed, and that was true in some cases because of people trump brought with him. he didn't have anybody who was sort of mirroring his ideology. he brought a lot of people who were just republican mainstream people, and a lot of them saw their jobs as keeping trump away

from policymaking and keeping things mainstream. that wouldn't happen again. this would be a very different administration. and you're right the people around in mar-a-lago now, they're there because they realize that's what he's like. they realize he's malleable and distractible and if he can be elected again, they can be the ones who start making policy. those will be the people, they're not going to make that mistake again. they're going to be there in the white house with trump making policy if he's re-elected. >> is there anybody sounding the alarm inside mar-a-lago, the sort of realty bell? is anyone ringing it? >> the people who are there, there have been some members, old time members who have left. but that's the reaction. i think people just go elsewhere. if you wanted to make a change, mar-a-lago would be a place no one would listen to you. people have selected -- that's a self-selected crowd of people who want to be there around trump and want trump to see them. i don't think there's anyone within mar-a-lago who want to

change the place from the inside. i think they just leave. >> for anyone who hasn't seen it i highly encourage there's video, pictures. it really brings to life a terrifying subculture that could very well be in the white house in 2025. it's essential reporting from "the new york times." david fahrenthold, thanks for your time tonight. still to come this evening we have new polling about what democrats want in their presidential candidate and what they are willing to do, and it's a lot to defeat donald trump. that's next. at's next. to duckduckgo on all your devie

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who responded said yes. joining me now is a democratic pollster and an msnbc political analyst. these numbers are so confusing. please help me understand them. does this explain why president biden is reluctant to do anything here? because, yes, democrats may think he shouldn't be on top of the ticket, but they're almost overwhelmingly still going to vote for him anyway. >> well, alex, exactly right. the numbers are a little skitso, but the reason for those contradictory numbers in those two polls can be answered by two words, and that's donald trump. whoever the democratic nominee is, democrats are going to vote for that individual en masse because the only thing that matters is who the republican nominee is. the idea there's questions whether or not it's going to be joe biden or not, that really is

immaterial, because there's going to be a focusing of the mind once we're past the point of no return whether that's president biden as the nominee, kamala harris, or someone else, and the stakes will become clear this is an election that is a choice between american democracy and continue witness of it after 248 years or a conscious movement into autocracy and dictatorship as donald trump has pledged to be on more than one occasion, alex, on day one. >> to your point it could be president biden, vice president harris, i don't know any democratic governor unnamed as of yet. but the fact of the matter you're saying the feeling he poses an existential threat to democracy is strong enough, is motivating enough that democrats are basically going to go with whoever is at the top of the ticket. >> there's no doubt about it. the poll i just conducted yesterday, the national poll, to me, alex, there was a stark number, maybe the most important

one in my judgment is one that democrats should take heart of, and that is we ask the question do you think if donald trump is elected to another term, will he and his administration represent a grave threat to american democracy continuing in the united states? 53% of all voters including 22%, by the way, of republicans answered yes to that question. so if the democrats can, again, make this case and make this election choice between what biden represents and the democratic nominees, which is continuing the way the kerntry has been the world's super power as a functioning democracy or this dictatorship that we see project 2025 and other areas articulating it would be donald trump that choice is what this election is going to be ultimately defined around. >> i'm going to ask you a question but bear with me.

you say 42% of republicans that find trump distasteful, that are alarmed by donald trump, who think he pose as grave danger to the republic, do you think that sense of alarm is as powerful as the democratic sense of alarm that republicans will pull the lever for whoever isn't donald trump in november? >> look, i mean the question you mentioned earlier if folks vote for if president biden is the nominee regardless of what happens if he shows signs of advanced aging and unable to complete a full four year term in the future only 44% said they would do that just to stop donald trump. that's where you kind of see that other question where 53%, a majority are saying they believe trump is a threat to the democracy. so you do have some folks in the middle. a lot of them are probably not watching this program candidly. we are all the junkies here. i think everyone watching tonight knows the stakes.

but those voters maybe not as attuned to the process, they may have concerns about donald trump, of course, but at the same time they look at some of the issues around president biden. it's not quite enough for them to necessarily vote against trump when they see the concerns about president biden. >> it's hard to understand whether they're -- aside from the reality of the calender, it's hard to understand what the urgency -- like, whether there is a point of which -- whether there is a point of no return for this democratic debate on who should be at the top of the ticket. given the sense of alarm, the distaste for trump, that seems baked in. i wonder if there's a point the democratic conversation do you think needs to end in terms of public support for the party itself in. >> that's a great question, alex, and it has a very clear answer. once the democratic convention is over and we have our nominee as a party, that is when the conversation will come to a complete halt, and i anticipate

at least at that point democrats will come together as a democratic family and get behind the nominee. the question, however, is between now and then there are still -- there is still an opportunity whether again it's president biden or someone else, that decision is still not defined, and that's why i think you have this consensus. had this happened later in the process, i think you would still see the democratic party completely in lock step behind president biden. the reason this anxiety exists because under no circumstances can donald trump be permitted to win the election because of the grave threat he represents. >> thank you for breaking down some seemingly in penetrable numbers. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. i am deeply concerned about joe biden winning this nchb because it is an existential threat to the country if donald trump