your bets on if you had to place your bets today? >> well, i'm not a betting man, but there is no question about it, the shift in momentum is real. you know, i always try to be skeptical of the hype, but you see the energy. you see the enthusiasm. you see the engagement. i mean, you can quantify looking at the kind of money being brought in, social media. there's something going on, and we don't know what it is. but i'm guessing that you and i were both thinking at the end of the republican convention here in milwaukee that this could be another 1980 election, where you have a republican blowout. right now, it feels a lot more like 2008, doesn't it? >> it does. look, charlie, you've been so good, so spectacular on tv. we want you to stick with us if you can. msnbc contributor charlie sykes, thank you so much. hopefully you can stick around. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. you have used words like

animal and rapid to describe black district attorneys. you attack black journalists, calling them a loser. saying the questions they ask are, quote, stupid and racist. you've had dinner with a white supremacist at your mar-a-lago resort. so my question, sir, now that you are asking black supporters to vote for you, why should black voters trust you after you have used language like that? >> first of all, i don't think i've ever been asked the question so -- in such a horrible manner, first question. you don't even say hello, how are you? are you with abc? because i think they are a fake news network, a terrible network. >> and it only went downhill from there. that was part of donald trump's contentious interview yesterday at a conference for the national association of black journalists, where trump questioned whether vice president kamala harris is black. we'll show you that moment and

the defiant response from the trump campaign to the widespread criticism and outrage about the former president's appearance. we'll also have reaction from vice president harris who was on the campaign trail in texas speaking at a historically black sorority event. donald trump's day ended with a rally in pennsylvania, his first event in that state since the assassination attempt against him. we'll play for you his joke about the widow of the man who died at that rally last month. and we'll bring you the very latest out of the middle east following the killings of a hezbollah commander in lebanon and the political leader of hamas in iran. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 1st. we are now in august. i'm jonathan lemire along with the bbc's katty kay. we are in for joe, mika, and willie. joining us this morning, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle.

president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politicians nation," reverend al sharpton. member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay. managing editor at the bulwark, sam stein. and msnbc contributor and author of the book "how the right lost its mind," charlie sykes. katty, we have a jam-packed show this morning, but we have to start with donald trump's appearance yesterday at this conference of black journalists. where, right from the first moment, he went on the attack. he was deeply confrontational, deeply offensive, and no more so when he questioned whether his opponent, vice president kamala harris was herself black. >> i don't know about august being a quiet news month. this is the beginning of what should be our summer holidays, and it's going to be a jam-packed show. not just in the u.s., so much is happening in the middle east, as well, and we'll get to that,

too. let's start at the conference where the former president was combative with the moderators when they confronted him on issues dealing with race. when asked about kamala harris, donald trump questioned his racial identity, as john just said. he also claimed again immigrants were taking so-called black jobs. >> some of your own supporters, including republicans on capitol hill, have labeled vice president kamala harris, who is the first black and asian-american woman to serve as vice president and be on a major party ticket, as a dei hire. is that acceptable language to you, and will you tell those republicans and those supporters to stop it? >> how do you define dei? >> diversity, equity, and inclusion. >> can you give me a definition of that? >> sir, i'm asking you a question, a direct question. >> define it for me, if you would. >> i defined it, sir. do you believe vice president kamala harris is only on the ticket because she is a black

woman? >> well, i can say i think it is maybe a little bit different. so i've known her a long time indirectly, not directly very much. and she was always of indian heritage. she was only promoting indian heritage. i didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she turned black. i don't know, is she indian or black? >> she's always identified as a black woman, went to a historically black college. >> i represent either one but she doesn't. she was indian all the way, and all of a sudden, she made a turn. she became a black person. >> just to be clear, sir, do you believe she -- >> i think somebody should look into that, too, when you continue in a very hostile, nasty tone. >> it is a direct question, sir. do you believe vice president kamala harris is a dei hire as some republicans have said? >> i don't know. could be, could be. there are some. there are plenty. >> why come here? what is your message today? >> my message is to stop people

from invading our country that are taking, frankly -- a lot of problems with it, but one of the big problems and a lot of the journalists in this room i know and have great respect for, a lot of the journalists in this room are black. i will tell you -- [ laughter ] -- coming from the border are millions and millions of people that happen to be taking black jobs. you had the best -- >> what exactly is a black job, sir? >> a black job is anybody that has a job. that's what it is. anybody that has a job. >> all right. mr. president, can i -- >> they're taking the employment away from black people. they're coming in and invading. it is an invasion of millions of people, probably 15, 16, 17 million people. >> okay. we'll get to the content of what the former president said, but that is a master class in interviewing. you ask the question, you ask it politely. if you don't get the answer, you ask it again, persistent and polite, exactly what journalists

are meant to do. after spending 34 minutes on stage, trump's team abruptly ended the interview. trump's campaign claimed they had to attend a rally in harrisburg, pennsylvania. the team blamed the shortened time on audio issue which led to the president waiting backstage for 40 minutes. after the backlash trump is receiving for his comments, the campaign's communications director told nbc news, quote, backlash from the truth? these people must be deranged. campaign later put out this statement. "based on the unhinged and unprofessional commentary directed toward president trump today by certain members of the media, many media elites clearly want to see us remain divided. you would think the media would have learned something from their repeat episodes of fake outrage ever since president trump first came down the escalator in 2015, but some refuse to get it. this will be their undoing in

2024. as i said, polite and persistent questions. trump later wrote, "crushed it." can campaign doesn't know how to go after vice president harris. the attacks on her personally or attacks on her race, her gender, or all black americans race, biracial, which is the largest growing group in the united states, are not landing. i don't know if the campaign really thinks they're landing well, but they seem to pretend to think it is. >> trump wanted the fight, to go and have the spectacle, the confrontation. i don't know it played like he thought it was going to play. certainly, there are some undecided in this country. there are people who are just now tuning into this race. these comments about the vice president so deeply offensive. to your point, katty, shows a

lack of coherent strategy from the trump team. as we'll get to later, they leaned into some of the race stuff again at the harrisburg rally later. a lot of his surrogates are still playing about dei, questioning, you know, vice president's heritage. you know, there's a real, real risk there to so many americans who are just going to be outraged at what they hear from the republican ticket. it shows a campaign right now that just isn't quite sure of its footing. that is clear. so vice president harris was in houston yesterday speaking to members of the sigma gamma roh sorority, the second sorority addressed in a week. the vice president herself being in the alpha kapaa alpha. she addressed the crowd at the conference. >> donald trump spoke at the annual meeting of the national

association of black journalists. and it was the same old show. the divisiveness and the disrespect. let me just say, the american people deserve better. the american people deserve better. >> mara, let's start with you and just get your reaction to what we heard from the former president in the venue about vice president harris yesterday. >> i think lately, donald trump has been trying to do his best impression of someone who actually respects women and likes black people. now that kamala harris is the frontrunner and there's so much energy and momentum behind that campaign and really excitement about someone who represents the future of the united states, a multiracial democracy, multi -- biracial people are the fastest

growing segment of america, i think now donald trump is afraid. i think he is probably losing this election, and i think he feels that. so what he is doing is he's going back to his old playbook of racism that really propelled his campaign back in 2016 when he started talking about mexicans as rapists. this is really just birtherism 2.0. it is clearly offensive. i do believe he went for a confrontation. i think it was a way of saying to his base, and not just any republicans, but to the deepest part, the most racist part of that base, don't worry. we as white americans, we still get to define race in america. and i think it was a way of making himself feel big. i mean, i think he could not help himself. i watched that event yesterday. i usually go to nabj conventions. i wasn't there yesterday.

it was really disturbing because, you know, what he did is he went into that room and really thumbed his nose at every journalist in that room, at every black person in america. he does not get to define who is black american. by the way, white americans know that kamala harris is black. part of the experience of being black in america is the fact that we actually can't change the color of our skin and we don't want to. we're proud to be black. to be black is to be american. this is something that donald trump is afraid of at this point. he doesn't know, he doesn't have answers for the american people. he doesn't have anything to offer except for more racism. that's what we've turned to. i mean, this is bankrupt, and i don't think that it's going to -- it is going to make him feel good. it is going to play well with that part of the base, but this is not going to expand the tent. i think this was desperate, and i think it shows he knows he's

in trouble. >> reverend al, we have known donald trump for a long time. you've known him longer than i have. what we saw yesterday is just another exhibit of a badly damaged man on stage. i don't know about you, but watching him, it occurred to me that the culture has passed him by. he is playing an old school politics that has always worked for him. hate, envy, resentment, fear of the other. but the culture we live in today is so accelerated that you can measure it by a stopwatch. it just moves so quickly. his act is old. he's got an old act. as mara pointed out, he knows partially, internally, it is old and not working. now, he is confronted by an opponent who has electrified the democratic party within a week, electrified the party. where do you think trump is going to go on this? >> well, first of all, what has

been perplexing to me is that we've been asking the wrong question. a lot of people when it came out that the national association of black journalists had invited him was saying, why would you invite him? the real question is, why did he accept? he accepted to go to do exactly what he did. he wanted to go and say, i will stand up to these blacks. i will put them in line. that has been the basis of his campaign. to go from obama is not american to harris is not black, it's the same song, just a different lyric. and that is what he feels put him in the white house in '16, and it'll put him in the white house now. i think you were right when you say it's an old song. but if you're an old singer and only have one song, you've got to sing it and hope the crowd likes oldies but goodies. that's what he is doing. he went there to confront black journalists. if those black journalists, many

objected, but if those black journalists on the stage thought they were going to do an interview with a presidential candidate who came to woo black voters, they were the ones mistaken. he wasn't mistaken. he knew if they'd opened up saying, good afternoon, mr. trump, we're glad to have you. how is your wife and kids? he would have done the same thing. secondly, when they asked about, is she a dei candidate and he asked her to define it and they went back and forth on defining it, he doesn't know what dei is. all he knows is it stands for diversity, blacks, and others, and, therefore, he's against it because his crowd is against it. he is not one that knows any policy. he knows nothing about content. if you look at donald trump yesterday, you're looking at a performer who never read briefings, never knows content, and he's going up against a woman who is thoughtful, has a proven track record, who now is

going to get every vote barack obama got. harvard graduate, u.s. senator, and he said, he's not american and i have his birth certificate, which he never delivered. now he's going to deliver she said she was indian when she was celebrated as the first black district attorney in san francisco, first black attorney general in california, first black woman u.s. senator from california, first black woman vice president. all of a sudden now, we didn't know she was black? i mean, how long are we going to keep playing this old song of donald trump? donald, it's time to get off the stage and let some folks come on. >> yeah, there was one more thing that i noticed when i watched the event yesterday. which was the deeply held personal animus and contempt that donald trump showed for the black women interviewing him. >> absolutely. >> and the journalists in the room. i believe it's going to be, if he does take up kamala harris's challenge to debate him, i

believe it'll be a problem for him with everyone outside of that republican, the most rapid right-wing base. people are going to see that. at one point, he even reached over to tighten abc news's rachel scott's water bottle. >> right. >> which was just an expression of dominance. he couldn't help himself. it was almost as though he could not take, personally take the fact that these black women on stage had the platform. >> they belong on the stage. >> right. >> you are black and a woman, you shouldn't be questioning me. >> right. >> by the way, you couldn't get the sound right. you black folks don't know how to -- >> late. >> i'm late because you couldn't get the sound. you negros don't know any better. the whole thing was his attitude, which is why i've been marching on it for 30 years. i wasn't surprised. i was surprised that everybody was surprised. >> mara, this is the subject of your recent piece, this is what happens when donald trump is challenged by black women. we should note, though, this is the first time that trump faced tough questions in a long time.

he simply doesn't sit for interviews like this. there was obviously a political dimension to it, as well. he thought he was going to benefit. he made other news, too, including on the january 6th convictions. let's look at that now. >> i would love to ask you about january 6th. you've called yourself the candidate of law and order. >> yeah. >> when "time" magazine asked if you'd consider pardoning all the riots, you said yes, absolutely. you called them patriots. 140 police officers were assaulted that day. their injureds included broken bones, at least one officer lost an eye, one had two cracked ribs, two smashed spinal disks, another had a stroke. were the people who assaulted those 140 officers, including those i just mentioned, patriots who deserve pardons? >> well, let me bring it back to modern day, like about five days ago. we had an attack on the capitol, a horrible attack on the capitol. you saw the people that were

protesting and spraying these incredible monuments, bells, all these magnificent limestone and granite with red spray paint that will never actually come off, especially on the limestone. i'm a builder, i know about this stuff. you'll see it in 100 years from now. they viciously attacked our government. they fought with police. they fought with them much more openly than i saw on january 6th. what's going to happen to those people? what's going to happen to the people in portland that destroyed that city? what's going to happen to the people that tried to -- >> my question is the riots who assaulted officers. would you pardon those people? >> absolutely, i would. >> you would pardon -- >> if they're innocent, i'd pardon them. >> they've been convicted. >> by the way -- [ laughter ] -- the supreme court -- >> charlie, this is donald trump saying if they're convicted, and he was reminded they were. this is leaning in and shredding

norms about the democracy and also law and order. >> yeah. first of all, i'd like to say, rachel scott put on a master class of interviewing. i know it was a controversy of platforming him, but i think she exposed him. very, very impressive, the fact she kept coming back to these questions. >> yes. >> but, again, this is a revealing question that, first of all, there's going to be no new donald trump. donald trump has been saying this now for months, that he is embracing the january 6th attackers. she made it very graphic. she was specifically talking about the rioters who attacked and beat police officers, and he kept deflecting, kept refusing to answer, kept coming back to it, and the one clear answer was absolutely, he intends to pardon them. so, you know, i mean, i watch this performance at his rally last night, and we can talk about, you know, what his strategy was and what he intended to do, but i also think, you know, the other thing was the complete lack of impulse

control. you know, as mike barnicle says, this is a deeply damaged man who is really sort of, you know, once again in the fat elvis stage of his career. he's just -- i thought it was very revealing that in his statement, he's going back to when he came down the golden elevator back in 2015. this man is relitigating his original playbook because that's what he's got. i think that's what -- that's what my take away from all of this was. he keeps going back to things that he thinks work. i also agree with mike when he says that you really have the sense that this is a man who thinks that the things that worked back in 2015 are going to work now and the culture has not changed. but it was a bizarre performance, and i'm really glad they invited him and that they shone the spotlight on what's going on inside this deeply

damaged 78-year-old man's mind. >> just to jump in on that, because i think it is 100% right, i'm struck by how similar this all sounds. the echoes from 2012, frankly, when he really was starting the birtherism stuff. people forget, but back then, he was talking about sending a p.i. to hawaii to dig up records on obama's birth, offering $5 million as rewards for anyone who could find the birth certificate, quote, unquote. the line yesterday was not just is kamala harris black, indian, or how does she identify, but you should look into that. again, it's the same exact routine that he's used time and again. to charlie's point and mike's point, to everyone else's point, i think it's not just that we've moved on as a culture, which i think a large portion of it have, but not all of us, i should say, but i think there's no sense of -- you know, it's

just not original, right? in 2015, it all was crazy and weird and some people were drawn to it because it seemed abnormal and different. i think in 2024, people are like, this is tired. that's why i think the most telling thing yesterday wasn't what he said but how harris handled it. she didn't dive in and argue with him. she put it within her framework of we can't go back. she said, we're just tired of this stuff. we don't need this stuff. let's move forward. i think that's actually a fairly effective rhetorical device, and she should continue to deploy that. >> yeah, sam makes a good point about trump trying to recreate what he did in 2016. you know, so many believe that he was elected, in part, because of a backlash to having the first black president who sat in the oval office for eight years. and now, he is trying to stir up this sort of racism identity politics again, asking these questions that, we should be clear, are offensive and racist.

charlie sykes, thank you so much for joining us this morning. ahead here on "morning joe," we will have much more from donald trump's combative appearance at that conference of black journalists, including what he said about his new running mate, jd vance. new overnight, israel confirmed the leader of hamas's military wipg was killed in a recent strike. it comes amid fears of a broader war in the region. richard haass and james stavridis will both join us nex. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be back in 90 seconds. oe." we'll be back in 90 seconds. an. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? with 30 grams of protein. wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that. can i make my side softer? i like my side firmer. sleep number does that.

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the israeli defense forces say the leader of hamas's military wing was killed in an air strike on march 13th, according to a spokesperson for the idf who says he was struck when fighter jets hit a southern area of khan yunis. that military chief is said to be behind the october 7th terrorist attack on israel. meanwhile, iran's supreme leader issued an order to strike israel directly in response to a strike in tehran that killed a leader of hamas. that's according to "the new york times" who spoke to three iranian officials briefed on the order, reportedly given yesterday morning. iran and hamas accused israel of launching the lethal strike into the iranian capital while israel has neither confirmed nor denied that it carried it out. the official who spoke to the "times" said iran's commanders

are considering another combination attack of drones and missiles on military targets in the vicinity of tel-aviv and haifa, but would avoid civilian targets. yesterday, the iranian mission to the u.s. posted on social media the retaliation will be special operations and intended to instill deep regret in the perpetrator. joining us now, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. he is the author of "home and away," available on substack. and four star general navy admiral james stavridis. he's an analyst for nbc news. they're saying they have to retaliate, but i'm reading they don't want to escalate this further than necessary. is that too optimistic a reading of what iran might be thinking at the moment? >> it is a hopeful reading but

largely accurate. i'll say 80% chance they want to keep this thing contained. i think there is always in a situation like this, we all know this in history, kind of a 20% chance of some kind of escalation, perhaps a miscalculation. i think the question is, how are they going to respond, katty, and just to do it by dominion, if you will. they could go by air, and they could do another wide-range, massive drone kind of attack. throw in more ballistic missiles. they could narrow that and go after one specific target, making the air defense harder. they could go maritime and go after some of the israeli offshore infrastructure. they could go by land, if you will, special operations, try to assassinate one of the israeli leaders. finally, they could use cyber, although i think they're overmatched in cyber. so they've got a lot of options. i think they will want to keep it contained.

however, i'll close with this. in the last couple of days, you've seen these two assassinations. one in u.s. terms would be like killing a combatant commander in lebanon, say the commander of all forces in central command, general carrilla. and, of course, at the inauguration of the iranian president, they take out essentially the number two figure of hamas. that's like taking out vice president harris. oh, by the way, they've just confirmed the killing of deif a month or so ago. that's like taking out lloyd austin. so the proxies are really getting smashed here. iran is going to respond. let's hope your prescription is right, katty. >> richard, let's pick up on the admiral's point. i have reporting how the u.s. is perceiving this. yes, in the wake of the terrible strike on the soccer field that killed children and teenagers, that they felt like the israeli strike in beirut was

proportional. that's what you do in the wake of such devastation. we should note, israel has not claimed responsible for what's happened in tehran. there is wide held belief they were behind it, but that's a different thing. the u.s. feels like that is a significant escalation. my two-part question to you is, why'd israel do it? and what impact do you think it has on the ongoing cease-fire talks in gaza and the threat of a wider war? >> look, there's a difference, as you point ow. it's one thing to go after the military commander in lebanon. something very different to go after the lead person for hamas who is conducting negotiations to free the hostages. this is further evidence, as if you needed it, the priority for israel, for this israeli government, is not freeing the hostages. it is decimating hamas. i think it tells you, it obviously makes the negotiations that much more a long shot. united states can urge that these negotiations go ahead.

we will in one way or another and work around this. i think also we'll probably push for some kind of a standdown in southern lebanon. the idea is to get israelis to pull back militarily, not go in heavily, to get hezbollah, go north. see if you can come up with a diplomatic arrangement rather than essentially a new war. the danger is that you've got two possibilities of major war. interestingly enough, jonathan, not in gaza. gaza is essentially done militarily. israel has pretty much run out of attackable targets. one is the north, whether you'll have a major escalation between israel and he has positive la. the other is israel and iran. that's the real danger. admiral stavridis, jim was talking about, can you orchestrate this? we were this close in april to a war between israel and iran. imagine if just one of those iranian drones had struck a schoolyard in israel. they shot 300 missiles and drones, not one caused a loss of

life. if this time they shoot weapons at israel, one may cause a loss of life. israel will go back hard. can question is, can we navigate or orchestrate this? we were incredibly fortunate in april. i'm not so confident we'd be as fortunate now. iran was humiliated, going after haniyeh was not simply going after the chief, it was a humiliation of the new president of iran and iran itself. it showed, again, they could not protect their territory. >> to richard's point, admiral, we could be on the precipice of a two-part war. one against hezbollah, the other iran. israel is a small nation comparatively speaking, a small army. a good, ffective army but a small army. with all of this going on, with all of the individual assassinations that israel has allegedly conducted, what happens to the peace talks and the hostages? >> i think that they, as richard

just said, there's at least a possibility of kind of working around this but not over the next few days, certainly. they will be in a position of freeze the frame once again, and my heartbreaks for them. let's see what the iranians do in response to what has occurred here. don't forget, the israelis have struck in a way that has created real damage to these proxy net works. we mentioned hezbollah to the north and gaza with hamas in the south. you've also got the houthis in the red sea who will have a vote in this, as well. we're in a very, very dangerous short period here. certainly after this, i hope richard is correct, we can work around this and get back to the negotiating table. not right now. >> reverend sharpton, let's take a moment to talk about the

domestic political impact here. we know that the ongoing war in gaza has been a political problem for president biden. members of his own party, young progressives, in particular, very unhappy with his handling of it and seemingly too much support for israel in their estimation. obviously now, vice president harris is at the top of the ticket. she's broken a little with him in rhetoric, perhaps not policy. if cease-fire talks break down, this could be an obstacle with the developments of the last couple days. how do you see this playing out for her? >> i think the challenge will be, as is potentially escalated, and you're dealing with hezbollah and dealing with israel, and a lot of fear of what happens in gaza and will continue to is what is overlooked if you have an escalating war? vice president harris will then have to deal with a new reality, an escalation where you're

dealing with hezbollah where it is not as defined about innocent people being killed or harmed in gaza. it does not mean that will not continue, but it will not be the spotlight. you're dealing with hezbollah against netanyahu, and i think she's going to have to be able to manage that. at the same time, deal with the humanitarian crisis that many of us are concerned about in gaza that may no longer have the spotlight on it. >> it is also a reminder that as we move toward november, we could see foreign events, wars, you know, some humanitarian disasters, which is, of course, continuing to unfold in the middle east right now, that could really impact this race. we probably will hear more, i believe, there's no choice but for the vice president to talk more about her views on foreign policy. she hasn't been forced to do that yet. that's going to be a test.

of course, donald trump, as well. though i think a lot of his discussion has been about, well, there were no wars when i was president. the reality is that his support for the settlements that netanyahu so strongly backed is probably also going to come up. we will see, i think, some bleeding over into the race, but i also have to question how much foreign policy will really move voters, beyond the uncommitted movement, in this year's election. >> exactly right. it usually, not always, usually doesn't play a big role. we shall see. james stavridis, thank you, admiral, for joining us this morning. coming up here on "morning joe," katie ledecky continues her dominance in the pool at the summer olympics. we'll show you her golden swim and the rest of the team usa highlights from the fifth full day of competition. plus, our own willie geist joins us live from paris.

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former president trump is lashing out at a group he says should have supported him more in the 2020 election. america's jewish community. trump spoke at a fundraiser over the weekend hosted by a group of jewish real estate developers in new jersey. for more than 30 minutes, trump riffed on the, quote, jewish people in this country that hate israel, and complained about how his pro-israel decisions while in office did not earn him a higher share of jewish votes. the publication, "jewish insider" reports, trump said, "i do all these things. when i first ran, i said, i understand, i haven't done anything yet. typically, a republican gets 20% of the jewish vote. i got 25%. that wasn't so good." trump continued, "now, i've done golan heights. i've turned around the iran nuclear deal. bibi begged obama not to sign it. it's a horrible deal, it's a short road to having a nuclear weapon, a very short-term deal.

i terminated that. i did all these things for israel. no president has ever been so good to israel by far as i have, and i got 26%. i went from 25 to 26%, think of it, i do all these things. this is not a quid pro quo. i was unbelievable for israel. i got one point extra. for all this, i ended up at 26%." all right. meanwhile, trump appeared to agree with a radio host in an interview tuesday who called second gentleman doug emhoff a, quote, crappy jew. trump repeated comments he had made before, laughing out at jewish voters who back democrats. he told abc radio host sid rosenberg that harris dislikes jewish people and israel more than biden did. rosenberg brought up the second gentleman. take a listen. >> they tell me harris's husband, doug emhoff, mr. president, is jewish. he is jewish like bernie sanders

is. he is a crappy jew, a horrible jew. >> trump agrees. when asked if trump meant to do that, trump's campaign responded this way, he obviously wasn't agreeing with that sentiment. stop taking talking points and transcripts from the kamala folks. they later added, kamala stoked anti-israel hate on campuses with her dangerous and divisive rhetoric. the harris campaign responded that vice president harris believes americans want a president who unites our country instead of divides it, uses the power of the presidency to help families instead of hurt them, and has a vision for our future instead of taking us backwards. richard haass, so much to get into there. he's also accused the vice president of not liking jewish people. of course, she's married to one. just give us your thoughts as to this litany of offensive comments. >> well, there's a thread this morning. he takes on african-americans,

and now jewish-americans. first, he is essentially trafficking in the trope of dual loyalty. that american jews only care about israel. he's overlooking the fact that the last i checked, american jews are americans. they are jewish-americans, american citizens. the idea that they only care about israel s again, something that's been used by anti-semites historically. second of all, we can have a big conversation, jonathan, about what does it mean to be pro israel? pro israel does not mean unconditional support for the policy of the government of israel any more than being pro american means everything we do is right. you can be pro american and a patriot and maybe think the iraq war in 2003 was a mistake, vietnam was a mistake. same thing with israel. you can be pro israel. i like to think of myself as pro israel. i have disagreed with a lot of what israel has done in gaza. i don't appreciate donald trump telling me as an american what

ought to inform my vote, much less what it means to be pro israel. >> sam stein, we're sitting around the table at 30 rock in new york city, and i can just feel, i can sense you have something on your mind to say about this. i can sense it is ready to burst out over the airwaves, so go. >> well, thank you, mike. i do have something on my mind. i appreciate that. i mean, it's essentially what richard said. this is deeply offensive. he has -- he being trump -- assumed that he can define what our interests are as jews. he has assumed that he can define how kamala harris should identify herself racially. it is all binary. the binary fault line is, do you support him? and i listen to that interview he gave in which he talked about his vote going up from 25 to 26%. and the sort of logical conclusion is, in fact, it is a quid pro quo. he says, it's not a quid pro quo.

it is a quid pro quo. what he is dangling out there is he will not pursue policies that are supportive of israel unless he gets a higher share of the jewish vote in this election. that's sort of a rude, grotesque way to think about politics. you have to vote for me. if you vote for me, you'll get the policies you want. putting aside the stuff richard said, that's just a classically grotesque way to think of policymaking, but that's how he operates. look, i'm obviously jewish. doug emhoff is obviously jewish. i think for someone to come in and say you have to think a certain way or you're not a good jew, and to agree with that sentiment is, frankly, anti-semitic, yes. >> we certainly all agree with that. sam stein, richard haass, thank you for joining us this morning. no yankee talk today. don't even try. next up here, the federal reserve signals it may cut interest rates next month. our steve rattner will join us with what that might look like, as well as the current state of

the u.s. economy. plus, willie geist joins us live from paris with the highlights from the summer olympics. >> look at him. >> never looked happier to be thousands of miles away from us. that's next on "morning joe." (♪♪)

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12:52 in the afternoon there in paris. the ar triomphe. american swimmer katie ledecky earned gold in the women's 1500 meter freestyle. look at the margin of victory. the winning time set a new olympic record that saw her touch the wall 10 full seconds faster than the next finisher. amazing. this marks her eighth career olympic gold medal and 12th overall. to tie swimmers jennie thompson, natalie coughlin, and tores for the most by a woman in olympic history. torri huske captured her third medal in the pool at the paris games, winning a surprise silver in the women's 100 meter freestyle. elsewhere, american bmx righter

paris won silver in the freestyle final after spending most of the year recovering from a leg injury. and team usa captured its first canoe slalom medal in 20 years thanks to evy liebfarth who earned bronze in the c final. the women's soccer team is perfect in paris, closing out group play with a win over australia, 2-1. they'll take on japan in the quarterfinals saturday. the u.s. men's basketball team had a much easier time against south sudan yesterday. only one basket, you'll recall, separated the teams in last month's exhibition game. the u.s. delivered a 103-86 victory in group play to secure a trip to the olympic quarterfinals, and the number one seed out of group c. the u.s. leads the olympics with the most medals overall, but

china now has won the most golds. let's bring in our friend willie geist live from paris. he hopefully knows which side the eiffel tower is now. oh one, you got it. okay. he's been there a week and showing off. willie, good to see you this morning. tell us a few of the things you've been struck by there in paris over the last 24 hours or so, and what are you looking forward to today? >> of course, the talk of the sporting world here in paris and really around the globe is the yankees five-game winning streak. >> not true at all. >> beating phillies. >> we're having audio issues. maybe because you're in france. we can't hear. what is this? >> overshadowing everything. >> i do have breaking news. a minute ago, the u.s. men's four rowing team won the united states' first gold medal in the event since 1960. 64 years. congratulations to them. john, i was at the race you just

showed a minute ago, katie ledecky last night, 1500 meter freestyle. breathtaking to watch. the race is 15 1/2 or so minutes if you're katie ledecky. watching her against the seven best other swimmers at this event on the planet, and to be that far ahead of them, some of them a full lap or two behind her, just staggering to see with your own eyes. as you said, it was her 12th olympic medal, her eighth gold. she's now tied for the most medals by a woman in american olympic history. she can take the record for herself if she wins a 13th tonight in a relay event. michael phelps, of course, has the most all-time of any athlete with 28. seemingly an untouchable record. exciting also last night in the pool, french star swimmer marchand won two golds. the roof was about to blow off

the place when he swam in both events. they were close. you could see the crowd willing him to victory. when he came up on the breaststroke, he'd hear the roar of the crowd. it sounded like an nba playoff game or world series game at fenway. the roars were that loud. really exciting to be in the building for that. you mentioned the other highlights, u.s. women's soccer team stays undefeated, moving on to the quarterfinals. looked great. they lost some of the stars and the icons over the last several years. this young team is really good. they play japan in the quarters on saturday. men's hoops, the dream team, got it done, won by 17 points. i think it is fair to say south sudan has the united states's attention and respect. it wasn't a full blowout last night. they hung right with them. remember, that close call a few weeks ago in an exhibition game, the one-point win for the united states. the united states now has one more tune-up game this weekend against puerto rico in men's basketball before they also will

move on to the quarterfinals. the big event tonight everybody is talking about, though, is in gymnastics. the individual all-around competition which pits simone biles, who won the individual all-around in rio in 2016, against her teammate, suni lee, who won the last gold medal in tokyo three years ago. so you have two americans, the last two champions in this event, both going at it head-to-head. this is the marquee event of the night. it starts at 12:15 eastern time back in the united states. of course, you can watch it in primetime. one more note, golf got under way today. kind of like a major. you have a lot of the world's best, including on team usa. scottie scheffler, xander schauffele, under way playing golf. same format. they play four rounds. top three finishers get the medals. they've just gotten started here. a lot to get you caught up on there. tonight, gymnastics. simone biles, suni lee. should be a huge night in the gym, john. >> willie, as you watch this here in the united states, it's easy to be jaded, but i've got

to tell you, these olympics have been spectacular to watch. absolutely every event. i'm wondering, you as an individual, not over there covering it, but what feeling do you have for the country, for the olympics itself, as you see all these athletes in all the events? >> it is emotional. i mean, it really is. you feel these swells of patriotism when you watch katie ledecky doing what she's doing, or simone miles representing our country. your chest puffs out. you're proud of our athletes. frankly, to watch the home athletes is always a thrill. i was at fencing a couple nights ago. the grand palais, one of the most beautiful buildings on earth with the glass ceiling. watched two french women duel and go at it for the gold medal. the roars of the group in this city, this country, are so proud. they're carrying on an incredible games, transforming

these landmarks into venues. i've never seen taking the history of the country and making it into today, the modern olympics. it is emotional to watch these people work their entire lives for sometimes a 30-second or 1-minute moment and get it done. it's incredible. >> there had been concerns the olympic movement might have been fading a little bit in recent games. not this time. the paris games have captivated the world. people are into it. they've done a wonderful job. willie geist live for us from paris, got it. there it is, willie. you nailed it this time. >> third time's a charm. >> enjoy the games today. turning to other news now, the federal reserve announced yesterday that interest rates would remain steady through august. the 5.3% interest rate is at a high, but chair powell hinted the reduction might happen in september, a month away, as inflation continues to cool down. if the central bank lowers

interest rates, it'll be the first cut since march of 2020. obviously, beginning of the covid-19 pandemic. joining us now, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. great to see you this morning. jerome powell, the hints were there. how much of a rate cut could we see in september? >> well, willie, the fed typically cuts rates about a quarter of a point at a time. what's important is it'd be the beginning of a process of rates coming down. what i'm showing you here is a comparison between what the feds in june, they thought the path of rates was likely to be compared to what the market thinks today. we've had very good inflation numbers, and so we're actually more optimistic today about rates than they were in june. it shows the rate cut down to 5% this year, which would imply, actually, two cuts, and then a continuing decline all the way down to 3.5% or so by the middle of next year. this is obviously really good news for the biden administration.

high interest rates have been tough for consumers and for businesses, and so having a rate cut before the election would be really good news. now, the fed emphasized yesterday it's not in the political business. it's watching the economy, not the election. this is really about the economy, but it does have that side benefit. why is the fed able to cut rates? as i said, inflation has come down faster than most of us thought it would. this is the fed's preferred index. it's a little different from the cpi, but it is the same idea. if you look at where we've gotten to, we're at 2.5% inflation in the most recent reading, just above the 2% target. so the fed feels like it has scope now to start to cut rates. september is still a couple months away, so we have to see how things unfold. >> donald trump is suggesting the fed is playing politics and urging them not to cut rates before november. steve, the next chart. economic growth still really strong. >> yeah, that's the other thing we've learned in the last couple

weeks, willie -- sorry, willie, jonathan. >> that's twice now, steve. >> the economy is performing better than we thought it was likely to be. we had a gdp number the other day. 2.8% annual rate. that was well above the projection of a 2% rate. this is again a very strong signal. jobs, of course, we've created more jobs in the 3.5 years of the biden administration than any president since before reagan. the great american jobs machine continues. we'll get another jobs number on friday, which is also expected to be positive. lots of jobs out there still. >> lastly, you've got a chart there about the labor market cooling. >> yeah. we want to also recognize that just as the economy remains very strong, there are signs that these high interest rates, such as the general economic cycle, have begun to cool the economy a little bit. the unemployment rate has been ticking up a bit. it is up to 4.1%. this is still considered to be a

very, very low unemployment rate, 4% is considered to be full employment, but it does suggest that there is some cooling going on, as you can see from this upward trend. another way to look at the labor market is comparing the number of job openings to the number of people looking for jobs. this is the number of job openings. this is the number of people looking for jobs. you can see that as we came out of the pandemic, as many of us certainly saw, we had a huge number of job openings relative to the number of people looking for them. it was hard for employers to find people to fill those jobs. we're getting a lot closer now. we're just about 0.9 ratio, just about back to some kind of equilibrium. let me comment on one other related thing. this chart is a coincidence. donald trump yesterday said immigrants were stealing american jobs, and that is not the truth. that is far from the truth. the point, as i've tried to make here, is we have more jobs than we have people looking for jobs. they're not stealing jobs. in fact, part of why we've had that really strong job growth

that i showed you a minute ago is because we've actually had this high rate of immigration. we've had people coming into the workforce, filling these jobs, creating jobs, and it's been good for the economy and america. >> there are so many studies now that show that immigrants increased gdp rather than the opposite almost across the board. "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, thank you for joining us. we are just past the top of the hour. let's get back to the main political news now, switching gears, and that is donald trump's appearance yesterday at a conference of black journalists. the forer president was combative with the moderators during his 34 minutes on stage. he questioned whether vice president kamala harris is black and if she passed the bar exam, which she did as a former prosecutor. >> mr. president, i would -- >> very nasty question. >> why you believe black voters could trust you with another four years. >> i have been the best president for the black

population since abraham lincoln. >> better than president johnson who signed the voting rights act? some of your own supporters, including republicans on capitol hill, labeled vice president kamala harris, the first black and asian-american woman to serve as vice president and be on a major party ticket as a dei hire. is that acceptable language to you, and will you tell those republicans and those supporters to stop it? >> how do you define dei? go ahead. how do you design it? >> diversity, equity, and inclusion. >> go ahead. is that your definition? >> that is literally the words, dei. >> give me a definition. >> sir, i'm asking you a direct question. >> define it for me, if you would. >> i just defined it, sir. do you believe vice president kamala harris is only on the ticket because she is a black woman? >> well, i can say i think it is maybe little bit different. i've known for a long time indirectly, not directly very much. and she was always of indian

heritage. she was only promoting indian heritage. i didn't know she was black. until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black, and now she wants to be known as black. so i don't know, is she indian or is she black? >> always identified as a black woman, went to a historically black college. >> i respect either one but she doesn't. she was indian all the way, and all of a sudden, she made a turn. she became a black person. >> to be clear, sir, do you believe that -- >> i think somebody should look into that, too. when you ask a -- continue in a hostile, nasty tone. >> it is a direct question, sir. do you believe that vice president kamala harris is a dei hire as some republicans have said? >> i really don't know. could be. could be. there are some. >> would you consider taking the cognitive test? >> mr. president -- >> i would love to. i've already taken two of them, but i'll do it again. >> and make it public. >> mr. president, how do you intend to -- >> i suggested to harris, let's take one. i said, joe and i will take a cognitive test.

i'd do it with her, too. i'd do it with her, also. she failed her law exam. she didn't pass her law exam, so maybe she wouldn't pass the cognitive test. >> are you saying -- just to be clear -- >> i'm giving you the facts. >> you don't think harris would pass? >> how do you intend -- >> she didn't pass the bar exam and didn't think she would. maybe she passed it. >> she did. >> there is a -- >> she didn't pass it, maybe she did pass it. actually, she didn't pass first time around, but the california bar exam is notoriously difficult. only half of people who take the exam in california pass it the first time around. she passed it the second time around. it is not just the facts he was giving us there. let's bring in staff writer at "the new yorker," jelani cobb, and national reporter for "the new york times," jeremy peters. mara gay, mike barnicle, reverend al sharpton still with us. jelani, you were in the room

yesterday. there was controversial whether donald trump should be there at all. i expect people expected this to be a combative interview. give a sense of what people were saying after the interview happened. what was the take in the room there? >> i think there was a lot of division ahead of this interview. people were really conflicted about whether or not it was appropriate. he'd been invited numerous times in the past. he's declined all of those invitations. then, you know, contextually, it's important to remember, he has verbally attacked a number of prominent, specifically black women members of nabj. the people in the organization were very conflicted and ambivalent about whether or not he should have been there. on the other side of that exchange, which was -- i've routinely described it as a fiasco, on the other side of it, people had -- there was a very skeptical sentiment. some people felt people had done their jobs, you know, particularly rachel scott and kind of drilling down on the same questions, trying to, you know, hold him to -- prevent him

from going off on non-secquitor is and tangents. for those like myself who didn't think this was necessary to have as an event, i think that that pretty much demonstrated why. >> jelani, one of the things that i contend is that trump came to do exactly what he did. and he did it. he came to say to his maga crowd, i stood up to blacks. i disrespected them. and i started my 2024 version of birtherism by questioning the racial identity of kamala harris. because i went to the white house based on birtherism, questioning the birth of barack obama. having said that, i think a lot of the journalists questioned,

many of us said why would nabj give him a platform, i think the three sisters on the platform were vindicated because donald trump did exactly what he wanted to do. which made them appear as journalists to expose who he was. he had no idea what dei was. he asked her to define it. he said he did everything for blacks, more than anyone since abe lincoln. he never named what that was. in many way, don't you think that despite the fact that you and maybe others, certainly me said, well, should he be given that platform? that he was exposing that platform. i think he did exactly what he wanted to do. i just think he's playing to a crowd that is a dwindling crowd. >> one thing i think is significant here is that the audience that he was playing to was not in that room. so this was -- and i agree with you fully, you know, this was a point to say, you know, i went into the lion's den.

i spoke to these people. you know, i was -- the toward kind of things we anticipate when someone asks difficult questions of donald trump. you saw the combative reaction. there was a crowd of people in the room who were aghast, particularly when he began casting dispersions about kamala harris's racial identity. you know, which was obviously an absurd thing to say to that crowd. there are people who, like myself, went to howard university as the vice president did, historically black university. she is a member of alpha kappa alpha, a historically black sorority. there was no question for the african-americans in the room how she's identified her entire life. now, that was a useful line potentially for people outside the room. you'll see that picked up, you know, in the echo chamber, bouncing around on social media, saying that kamala harris has not been black, identified as black for her entire life.

for me, the skepticism was about whether or not we would generate more actual substantive information or we would be a venue to be the proliferation of disinformation. i think we saw a good amount of, steady stream of it as the former president spoke. >> jeremy, we've been covering all morning about how deeply offensive and racist this was. there is a strategy, to the reverend's point. trump clearly wanted this fight. take us behind the scenes in terms of his campaign. what are they thinking here in terms of these attacks, levying the dei charges? let's remember, it was a week ago where speaker johnson urged his fellow republicans to not do this anymore. now, you have trump leaning in and leaning in harder than ever. does this show just a lack of planning here? they're not sure what to make of harris? or do they think this is the way to attack her? >> they're flailing around. they have not landed on any

effective tri seek of her. it's laughing kamala, crazy kamala, crooked kamala. trump is searching for an attack line that works, something he's been effective on his other opponents, but they can't land on one. they don't know how to go after her. what vice president harris has done by responding the way she did is to very effectively draw the contrast that biden couldn't with trump. she's saying, you know, same old show. it's no accident she used the word old, right? she's reminding people that this is something that we've all seen before from donald trump. it's kind of like a tired sequel to the original. he is going back to the same playbook, saying, you know, questioning her background, that somehow this is, like, a conspiracy theory, that he'd like to be as powerful as birtherism was in 2016. i don't know about that.

as far as conspiracy theories go, this is a pretty weak one. i think it sounded like it was something very comcompulsive, t came out of his mouth at the time. i had never heard this before. maybe i'm wrong. i never actually heard anybody questioning vice president char harris's background, the way there were dark conspiracy theories around obama. i think this was just a, you know, an attempt to land a hit on her, and he missed. >> you know, we've been talking a lot about the republicans as weird lately. i think this is one of those moments where it is easy, to your point, jeremy, to say, well, this just seems out of left field. everybody knows that kamala harris is black, has identified as black, as well as indian american. but i have to just return to something that the rev talked about a moment ago. to black americans, this kind of attack feels actually quite familiar. what it was was an attempt by a

former president of the united states to, when talking about vice president, but also to a room filled with black journalists and people, to say, you're nothing. you're whatever i think you are. you are whatever i say you are. you don't get to self-define. you don't get to be american. i say what you are because i am a white man. that is old thinking. it is an old playbook. it's all donald trump has. but my question for jelani, actually, i was hoping to just ask him about this, is i just wonder if you could talk a little bit about the performative nature of white supremacy and what you saw through that lens in the room yesterday. some of the performance we saw by him, again, leaning over to tighten rachel scott's water bottle in an expression of dominance. trying to feed off the audience by making them laugh at inappropriate times. can you just take us into that room and tell us what you saw through that lens?

>> sure. you know, i think that performance is really a key term there. you know, in the immediate aftermath, i said to people that it struck me that he was like a comedian who was trying out new material. you know, he was kind of going around and casting about and so on, knowing, you know, savvy enough to know that the way this would play in that room would not be, you know, pertinent to him. people gasped at several different points at the things he said. but also knowing that he could utilize this. even as they were still in the room, there were social media clips going out that we were seeing that were casting it. he also insulted the audio equipment, saying everything was a half hour late because the audio wasn't ready. in fact, you know, he was tweeting or posting, rather, i should say, on truth social from his airplane while we were already late, at the point which the program was supposed to

start. he was still on his plane. so that -- but it certainly did seem to say, well, look, this room full of inept african-american journalists, they can't seem to get their audio right. then he comes out and saying the woman, that rachel scott has asked a nasty question and makes this about being cobative with her. it really was a very, you know, kind of disturbing bit of performance art. >> we saw when he was president so many times when he'd respond to white house correspondents, when those he would call nasty or disrespectful, almost often women and often women of color. jelani, thank you. we appreciate it. coming up on "morning joe," while donald trump publicly disavowed project 2025, don't be misled to think he is changing any of his plans for the country if he were to win this november. joyce vance joins us ahead with

that. you're watching "morning joe," and we'll be right back.

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5-year price lock guarantee. powering 5 years of savings. powering possibilities. beautiful morning in chicago. 6:23 a.m. there. 7:23 here. chicago, of course, the setting of the national association for black journalists convention. there was another tense moment there yesterday when former president trump was asked about

his running mate, jd vance's comments about childless women. >> he said the democrats running the country are a bunch of childless cat ladies who were miserable at their own lives and the choices they'd made, so they want to make the rest of the country miserable, too. he's not talking here about how great it is to be a parent. he is attacking what he says are the choices people are making to not have children. did you know he had these views about people who do not have children before you picked him to be your running mate, and do you agree with him? >> no. i know this, he is very family oriented. he thinks family is a great thing. that doesn't mean he thinks that if you don't have a family, it's not -- i know people with families, with great families. i know people with troubled families. i also know people with no families. they didn't meet the right person, things happen. you go through life, don't meet the right person. >> he's not just talking about -- >> excuse me. >> -- not saying they should get

more votes than others. >> i think i'm speaking for him, too. he strongly believes in family. i know people with great family and those without a family. the people without a family are far better, superior in many cases, okay? >> just minutes later, trump then seemed to downplay the significance of his vice presidential pick. >> i've always had great respect for him. and for the other candidates, too. but i will say this, and i think this is well documented, historically, the vice president in terms of the election does not have any impact. i mean, virtually no impact. you have two or three days where there's a lot of commotion as to who, like you're having it on the democrat side, who it's going to be, and then that dies down and it's all about the presidential pick. virtually never has it mattered. maybe lyndon johnson mattered than different reasons. maybe vote reasons but other political reasons.

historically, the choice of a vice president makes no difference. you're voting for the president. you can have a vice president who is outstanding in every way, and i think jd is. i think all of them would have been. but you're not voting that way. you're voting for the president. you're voting for me. if you like me, i'm going to win. if you don't like me, i'm not going to win. >> joining us now, the host and creative director of msnbc live, luke russert. good morning. as someone put it to me yesterday, trump's efforts to downplay the significance of his vice presidential pick sounds like probably what his aides have told him in recent days as he complains about the pick of jd vance and all the bad headlines he's created. he's trying to say, no, no, boss, doesn't matter. it's all about you, not about him. clearly, trump and his team on the defensive about this vance pick, and it comes as vice president harris is about to select her own running mate. >> yeah. well, i don't think i've seen a less ringing endorsement of a

vice presidential pick in recent modern presidential history. essentially saying, yeah, don't worry about him. i'm the guy on the ballot. doesn't seem there's a lot of confidence that donald trump necessarily has in jd vance. look, i think jd vance has been problematic for donald trump on a number of levels. perhaps no more so than the association with project 2025. and the fact that donald trump, someone who is very chameleon like, something they talk about kamala harris being, never really likes to be pinned down on something, never talks about policy. always talks about the personal. jd vance is so attached to the policy about what they would actually do if they were governing. one of the big stories here in washington, d.c., close to virginia, a state with a lot of federal workers, project 2025. they want to fire all these civil servants. jd vance is someone who has been in favor of that, essentially saying anyone who has a government job is a, quote, unelected bureaucrat, and needs

to be looked at. in theory, you're having conversations in d.c. and other places around the country with federal workers that do, i work for the fda, four presidents, bipartisan for 20, 25 years, and suddenly i get fired on day one of the trump administration just because? so what jd vance has done to donald trump is tied him down to a lot of policy that he doesn't like. not to mention on the personal front, deeply offensive to women. one of the things i always like to do as someone who is in and out of politics the last few years is, what cuts through to people who don't inhale this stuff like you and i do? i have gotten so many messages from young women that have said, wait, did he really say that? did jd vance really say that? no, i mean, if the job of the vice president is to be ready day one and to not cause the ship to take on water, i think it's been an epic failure by jd vance so far. >> number one job of the vice presidential candidate is to do no harm. jd vance doing harm. jeremy, this reminds me, actually, this moment, of trump

downplaying vance's significance reminds me of the reporting you have in your book. because when vance was picked, there was a sense that trump was trying to say, this is the maga heir apparent. that may sort of be true, but trump doesn't really care about the republican party. he cares about the maga brand. he doesn't care about the republican party. he doesn't care if it is down ballot victories. he doesn't care about setting up for future success. he cares about himself. >> exactly right. it's why he denounced, i think, project 2025, and the strong language he did, though there may be policy descriptions farther to the right. it's not his document. not everybody has to originate from him. when i was reporting my book, i was talking to one of trump's closest advisors, steve bannon, who said, and i quote him on the record saying this, do you think trump cares about the next republican who runs for president? no, he wants the next republican presidential candidate to lose by 40 points because he wants to

say, only i could do this, donald j. trump. i think when you're looking at vance and any potential future he has in the republican party, you have to remember two things. one, the people closest to trump often don't last very long. they don't have political futures because they either end up in jail or disgraced or shoved out of the inner sanctum because they've offended him, and that trump is not interested in nurturing a successor for his movement. because it's his movement, in his eyes. >> i love the idea that there's a box you can take. do you want to end up in jail or end up disgraced or just chucked out of the inner circle? that's what happens to so many of those people who hang around trump too long. luke, because it's not just television, tell us about the msnbc live event you're going to be holding around the dnc later this month in chicago with eric holder, stacey abrams. sounds super exciting. what's going to be happening?

>> thank you so much for asking. we have an event in chicago the wednesday of the convention week. we'll talk about voter access, specifically how to get folks to the polls who might not be able to necessarily have the means to be able to do so because they live in places where there's not adequate public transformation. what can be done to get folks to the polls in a way which also cuts through a lot of the voter suppression efforts we've seen throughout the country? stacey abrams and eric holder will speak to this. that's what we have in chicago at the dnc. september 7th in new york, we're going to do a big one with a lot of msnbc personalities. we have an afternoon session and an evening session. it's going to be very exciting. we encourage you to purchase tickets to that. they're almost sold out, so get there. that's going to be a wonderful conversation about where the race is, what kamala harris and their campaign is doing regarding coalition building, and trying to get to the electoral college number they need to get at. a lot of in-depth conversations

and real focus on issues that you're not going to hear anywhere else, aside from msnbc, with the best people in the business. that's the team we have here. >> we'll be looking forward to those events. host and creative director of msnbc live, luke russert. >> thank you. >> we'll have new reporting on the project 2025 effort when we come right back. come right back. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day.

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welcome back to "morning joe." the right-wing project 2025 group says it's shutting down its policy operations. the move comes after former president trump has denied involvement with the group and democrats have campaigned against conservative policy that has broken through in recent weeks. joining us is joyce vance, co-host of the "sisters-in-law" podcast. you have a new post on substack in which you argue that trump disavowing himself from project 2025 is simply meaningless, since he advocates for many of those very policies every time he holds a rally. tell us more about that dynamic. it's clear that trump worried about 2025, trying to distance himself from him, but his fingerprints were all over it. >> yeah. i think that's absolutely right. i mean, it's fascinating to say, on the one hand, that you don't know what's in a document, that

you're not involved in it, but at the same time, have the power to essentially fire the director of that project at the heritage foundation, who stepped down following trump's comments. we know on a variety of different fronts this is trump's policy. the way project 2025 is organized, it's written in chapters. 31 of the 38 chapters are authored by people who either held positions in trump's prior administration or who were involved in his administration -- in his transition team. there's that nexus. each chapter covers a federal executive branch agency or some sort of a similar government entity and lays out plans. one of the most important ones and the way we know that this is trump's policy procedures in progress is this so-called schedule f process that you were talking about in the last segment. federal employees, members of the bureaucracy, are graded into different classifications.

schedule f was something new that trump created, put into place in october of 2020. what it permitted him to do was to use a loyalty test to fire federal employees who he deemed insufficiently loyal to him. you know, the whole point of having the civil service is to insulate career professionals, scientists, other professionals from this political whimsy. trump wanted to be able to slash through the federal bureaucracy and fire people who weren't aligned with him. that is in project 2025. it is something he talks about in his agenda 47, this companion piece on his website. this is what you get if you re-elect donald trump. >> joyce, unfortunately, today, a lot of stuff about politics that people see and hear and read, minimally read, is sort of like sky writing. proof, it's gone. they really don't know what the substance is. i think that's a large part of project 2025.

but if you could, could you just enumerate a couple of the items? they want to take over contraception, medicaid, things like that that people need. >> yeah. i mean, i think that this is intentional, by the way. it is a 900-plus page document. they're counting on the fact that no one is going to read every last chapter. some of the plans include, for example, eliminating the department of education, eliminating programs like head start and special education. doesn't seem like that's a good policy objective, but there you have it. also, this enhanced enforcement of the come stock act, a 100-year-old act that has fallen into disuse, but it'd prohibit putting anything into the mails that, for instance, allowed women to engage in family

planning. it is not just materials about abortion. that could extend to contraception. can't put it in the mail. can't access it that way. can't even get information about it. on and on and on. the thing about project 2025 is there's something for everybody to hate. >> jeremy, when you look at project 2025, they're saying they're closing down, the fact of the matter is they are probably the most thorough policy statement from trump's supporters. even though he denies supporting 2025, all of them support him and have been close with him. so basically, in absence of donald trump having any policies of his own, isn't project 2025 really the statement from the maga world in terms of policy? >> i think it's a very clear indication of the ideas that the people he would fill his cabinet with support and are sympathetic to, absolutely.

i think it is also a statement of extreme cockiness of the republicans behind it. the heritage foundation, you go back and look at their history, the trump movement. they were an organization that didn't have a place in the original trump presidency. initially, they were seen as kind of this pillar of the republican establishment that trump had just defeated. they had to go and remake themselves into a pro-maga organization. this project 2025 is, i think, like a real representation of how thoroughly trump has just dominated the republican establishment. but like i said, you don't put out a document like this and say the quiet parts out loud unless you are overconfident in your ability to win. we know how cocky republicans were. we saw it with their pick of jd vance, right? that's not the kind of pick you make unless, you know, you think that you really don't have all that much to lose. well, guess what? the script has kind of flipped.

now, the republicans are not only defending project -- or distances themselves from project 2025 but having to defend themselves on the pick of jd vance. >> the pick was made when the trump team thought they'd win and win big. despite efforts to distance themselves from 2025, harris team made clear, it is not going anywhere. jeremy peters, thank you for joining us this morning. former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you, as well. we'll be reading your new post on substack. coming up next here, the men accused of plotting the 9/11 terror attacks are expected to plead guilty and avoid the death penalty. republican congressman mike lawler of new york was among those calling for a trial. he joins us straight ahead here on "morning joe."

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with exclusive access to speeds up to a gig in millions of locations nationwide. and right now, xfinity internet customers can buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. the u.s. has reached a plea deal with the alleged mastermind behind the september 11th attacks along with two other defendants. chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell has the latest. >> reporter: today, the self-confessed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks and two accomplices are expected to enter a plea deal with the u.s. military. according to officials, the three defendants are said to plea guilty to some unspecified charges next week at guantanamo bay. a letter sent to families reports that men agreed to plea

guilty to conspiracy and murder charges in exchange for a life sentence, avoiding a death penalty trial at guantanamo where they were first charged by the military in 2008. once the number three man in al qaeda, ksm, khalid sheikh mohamed, was kidnapped in 2003. four years later, he testified he was responsible for the 9/11 operation a to z, as well as the attack on the world trade center in 1993. according to a senate intelligence committee report, the cia waterboarded him 183 times, a now outlawed technique, now considered torture. ksm's accomplice is also in the plea agreement. he was the main money man, sending credit cards and tens of thousands of dollars to the hijackers. the third defendant was a former body guard for osama bin laden and is suspected by the fbi of planning the attack on the "uss

coal" in 2000 that killed american soldiers. ashley lost her dad on 9/11, and saying this doesn't serve justice. >> the saying is never forget. unfortunately, the victims were forgotten today. >> the pain still lingers. andrea mitchell with the report. joining us now is republican congressman mike lawler of new york. congressman, i though there are 9/11 families in your district, and you have been calling for this to go to trial for the past year. what do you make of this plea agreement then? >> well, obviously, it's a very frustrating day for a lot of 9/11 9/11 families. you know, i was in my fifth day of freshman year of high school on september 11, 2001, just 35 miles north from ground zero, and so many families were impacted by that fateful day, and to today, we still have

first responders dying from 9/11, health-related illnesses and i've spoken with many families and our first responders and they're angry, and they feel betrayed and heartbroken, and it doesn't seem like justice. others who entered into this plea deal should be subject to the death penalty. most new yorkers would agree with that, and so that's where the frustration lies. i called on the biden administration not to enter into a plea deal a year ago. we wanted to see this go to trial, and unfortunately this is where we are today. >> congressman, how do you feel about the death penalty on a personal basis? >> look. obviously we don't ever want to see innocent life taken, but generally when you are talking about the death penalty, you're talking about people who have engaged in the most horrific

offenses, who have taken innocent lives and so personally i do support the death penalty in these types of cases, and i've long believed when you have a situation like this, a terrorist attack that resulted in the deaths of 2,977 americans, and so many new yorkers still continuing to die from 9/11 health-related illness, there's consequence for that. >> did you have any sense of, in terms of the plea deal that he got, that there might have been a level of cooperation from him to american intelligence services that would perhaps have given up a few more people? >> look. certainly that would be the hope. i don't have any clear indication of that at the moment, but i think if they are going to enter into this plea deal, that there would be full and continued cooperation, but khalid shayk mohammed has been

off the field for over two decades, in fact, actually, so from that standpoint, you know, i'm not sure what else he would necessarily add, but i certainly believe that there should have been a severe consequence, and in this instance, the death penalty. >> let's bring in state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aronberg. you're a prosecutor. what goes into the thinking behind cutting a deal like this? >> yeah. good to be with you, jonathan, and with the congressman. one of the hardest decisions for prosecutors is to cut a deal with the devil. sometimes, though, it's necessary to secure justice. that's what's happening here, to achieve closure for victims and their families. you know, these decisions are easier when victims' families are all on one side on a plea deal, supporting one course of action over the other. here, the families had differing opinions on the plea deal and that complicates things, and has been a reason for the extended

delay in resolving those osama bin laden deserved the death penalty, and khalid shayk mohammed deserves the death penalty and he'll be spared because those who support the use of torture to this day need to confront the reality that ksm and his cohorts were able to avoid the death penalty because of that. the federal government in this case, faced the real possibility of having their confessions tossed out because these individuals were subject to waterboarding, subject to secret cia prisons that may have contaminated the evidence against them. so if you want to blame an administration for imperfect justice here, do so, but don't blame the biden administration because their hand was forced because the policies of the george w. bush administration. >> dave, it's a good point, and just a follow-up on a more personal level. in a moment like this, how does someone like you speak to the

family, frankly when there is a divide as to what they want to see happen? >> oh, it is one of the toughest jobs as a prosecutor. you have victim witness coordinators that help you through everything, and you have to make them understand the realities of our system, you know, this is imperfect justice, but justice is often imperfect. it is often slow and rough around the edges. keep this in mind though. these terrorists were defiant and unrepentant from the beginning until now. now they're pleading for their lives. their swagger is gone. that's something i would impress upon the victims. in a perfect world, you would have a quick trial and the confessions would be admitted into evidence, but in our real world, you didn't even have a trial date set here after 21 years. the pretrial motions have bogged down the wheels of justice here in heavy mud, and once you finally get a trial date, you still got a 12 to 18-month trial ahead, and justice delayed is justice denied. one more thing, jonathan, i do recognize though, the anger of

the victim families who see capital punishment imposed in this country against people who murder one person, but not against these terrorists who murdered nearly 3,000 innocents, but keep in mind, we're still dealing with the fallout from camp, x-ray, and waterboarding which for years has been used against us as anti-american propaganda to recruit jihadists around the world, and you see repercussions of those here today. >> dave, thank you for joining us, and congressman, last word to you. >> look. i certainly appreciate and understand dave's perspective, but i think for most folks after 23 years, as we approach, you know, this 23rd anniversary coming up in just a little over a month, this doesn't feel like justice, and i think khalid shayk mohammed certainly deserved the death penalty, and i think that's where most americans will fall on this. >> republican congressman mike lawler of new york, thank you

for joining us. reverend al sharpton, thanks to you as well. tell us what an important trip you have leaving to go to houst to speak at the funeral of congresswoman sheila jackson lee, one of the most successful people in my time, and vice president kamala harris is doing the eulogy. i'm giving respects to the legacy of sheila jackson lee. >> we certainly appreciate that. next up here, we'll have more from donald trump's disastrous appearance in a conference for black journalists. and we'll bring you expert analysis on the fast-moving developments in the middle east as fears of a wider war are growing. "morning joe" is coming right back. growing. "morning joe" is coming right back any size whooo! 20% off subs is fun to say 20% off subs are fun to eat you'll love 20% off subs the point is, any sub any size. 20% off at subway sure, i'm a paid actor, and this is not a real company, but there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business.

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you have used words like animal and rabbit to describe black district attorneys. you've attacked black journalists calling them a loser, saying, the questions that they ask are, quote, stupid and racist. you have had dinner with a white supremacist at your mar-a-lago resort. so my question, sir, now that you are asking black supporters to vote for you, why should black voters trust you after you have used language like that? >> well, first of all, i don't think i've ever been asked a question so -- in such a horrible manner, first question. you don't even say hello, how are you? are you with abc? because i think they're a fake news network, terrible by the way. >> and it only went downhill

from there. that was part of donald trump's contentious interview yesterday at a conference for the national association of black journalists where trump questioned whether vice president kamala harris is black. we'll show you that moment and the defiant response from the trump campaign to the widespread criticism and outrage about the former president's appearance. we'll also have reaction from vice president harris who was on the campaign trail in texas speaking at a historically black sorority event. and then donald trump's day ended with rally in pennsylvania, his first event in that state since the assassination attempt against him. we'll play for you his joke about the widow of the man who died at that rally last month. and we'll bring you the very latest out of the middle east, following the killings of a hezbollah commander in lebanon and the political leader of hamas in iran.

good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 1st. we are now in august. i'm jonathan lemire along with the bbc's katty kay. we are in for joe, mika, and willie, and joining us this morning, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, mara gaye, sam stein, and author of the book "how the right lost its mind," charlie sykes, and we have a jam-packed show this morning, but we have to start with donald trump's appearance yesterday at this conference of black journalists where as we just showed, right from the first moment he went on the attack. he was deeply confrontational, deeply offensive, and no more so when he questioned whether his opponent, vice president kamala

harris, was herself black. >> yeah. i don't know what happened to august being a quiet news month, but clearly that one's not going to happen. here we are at the beginning of what is meant to be all of our summer holidays and not just in the u.s., but in the middle east as well, and we'll get to that too, but let's start at that conference where the former president was combative with the moderators when they confronted him on issues dealing with race. when asked about vice president kamala harris, donald trump questioned her racial identity as john just said. he also claimed, again, that immigrants were taking so-called black jobs. >> some of your own supporters, including republicans on capitol hill, have labeled vice president kamala harris who is the first black and asian american woman to serve as vice president and be on a major party ticket as a dei hire. is that acceptable language to you, and will you tell those republicans and those supporters to stop it? >> how do you -- how do you define dei? >> diversity, equity, inclusion.

>> yeah. is that what your definition -- >> that is literally the words. >> would you give me a definition. >> sir, i'm asking you a question, a very direct question. >> define it for me if you would. >> i just defined it, sir. do you believe that vice president kamala harris is only on the ticket because she can a black woman? >> i can say, now maybe it's a little bit different. i've known her a long time indirectly, not directly very much, and she was always of indian heritage, and she was only promoting indian heritage. i didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black, and now she wants to be known as black. so i don't know. is she indian or is she black? >> she has always identified as a black woman. she went to a historically black college. >> i respect either one, but she obviously doesn't. she was indian all the way, and all of a sudden, she made a turn and she became a black person. i think somebody should look

into that when you continue in a nos till and nasty turn. >> do you think she is a dei hire? >> i don't know. could be. there are some, and could be. >> what is your message today? >> my message is to stop people from invading our country that are taking frankly, a lot of problems with it, but one of the big problems and a lot of the journalists in this room i know, and i have great respect for. a lot of the journalists in this room are black. i will tell you that coming -- coming from the border are millions and millions of people that happen to be taking black jobs. you had the best -- >> what exactly is black job, sir? >> a black job is anybody that has a job. that's what it is. anybody that has a job. >> all right. mr. president, can i -- >> they're taking the employment away from black people. they're coming in, and they're coming in. they're invading -- it's an invasion of millions of people,

probably 50, 60, 70 million people. >> we'll get to the content of what the former president said, but that is master class in interviewing. you ask the question. you ask it, and if you don't get the answer, you ask the question again, and it was persistent and polite, exactly what journalists are meant to do. the team abruptly ended that interview. trump's campaign said they had to leave to attend a rally in pennsylvania. they also blamed audio issues which they say led to the president waiting backstage for 40 minutes. when asked about the backlash the trump campaign was receiving for its comments, the director it would nbc news, quote, backlash from the truth? these people must be deranged. the campaign put out this statement that it reads in part, based on the unhinged and unprofessional commentary directed towards president trump today by certain members of the

media, many media elites clearly want to see us remain divided. you would think that the media would learn something from their episodes of fake outrage ever since president trump first came down the escalator in 2015, but some people refuse to get it. this will be their undoing in 2024. as i said, polite and persistent questions. trump himself commented on the interview writing on truth social, that he, quote, crushed it. john, i think the campaign's clearly still struggling. they haven't found the right way to attack kamala harris. they go after her policy which is seems to be the most fruitful area for them to attack the opposing candidate, but these candidates on her personally or her race or her gender to all black americans' race or biracial people's race, which is the fastest growing group in the united states, just don't seem to be landing where -- i don't know if the campaign even thinks they're landing well, but they're seeming to pretend that they think they're landing well. >> yeah. certainly as we will get into with our panel, he wanted that

fight. he wanted that spectacle, that confrontation, but i don't know if that played like he thought it was going to play. certainly there are some undecideds in this country. there are people who are just now tuing into this race, and these comments about the vice president, deeply offensive, and to your point show a lack of coherent strategy from the trump team. they leaned into some of the race stuff again at harrisburg rally later. a lot of his surrogates are still -- they're playing about dei, questioning, you know, vice president's heritage, you know, and i just -- there's a real, real risk there to so many americans who were just going to be outraged at what they hear from the republican ticket, and it shows a campaign right now that just isn't quite sure of its footing. that is clear. so vice president harris was in houston yesterday speaking to members of the sigma gamma ro sorority. this is the second sorority harris has addressed in a week,

the vice president herself being a member of a historically black sorority, and she addressed trump's controversial appearance earlier in the day at the nabj conference. >> donald trump spoke at the annual meeting of the national association of black journalists, and it was the same old show. the divisiveness and the disrespect, and let me just say the american people deserve better. the american people deserve better. >> so mara, let's start with you and get your -- your reaction to what we heard from the former president in that venue about vice president harris yesterday. >> you know, i think lately donald trump has been trying to do his best impression of someone who actually respects women and likes black people, and now that kamala harris is

the front-runner and there's so much energy and momentum behind that campaign, and really excitement about someone who represents the future of the united states, a multiracial democracy, biracial people are the fastest growing segment of america. i think that now donald trump is afraid. i think he is probably losing this election, and i think he feels that, and so what he's doing is he's going back to his old playbook of racism that really propelled his campaign back in 2016 when he started talking about mexicans as rapists, and this is really just birtherism 2.0. it's clearly offensive. i do believe he went for a confrontation. i think it was a way of saying to his base, and not just -- just any republicans, but to the deepest part, the most racist part of that base, don't worry. we as white americans, we still get to define race in america,

and i think it was a way of making himself feel big. i mean, i think he could not help himself. i watched that event yesterday. i usually go to nabj conventions. i wasn't there yesterday, and it was really disturbing because, you know, what he did is he went into that room and really thumbed his nose at every journalist in that room, at every black person in america. he does not get to define who is a black american, and by the way, white americans know that kamala harris is black. part of the experience of being black in america is the fact that we actually can't change the color of our skin, and we don't want to. we're proud to be black. to be black is to be american, and this is something that donald trump is afraid of at this point. he doesn't know -- he doesn't have answers for the american people. he doesn't have anything to offer except for more racism, and that's what we've turned to.

i mean, this is bankrupt, and i don't think that it's going to -- it's going to make him feel good. it's going to play well with that part of the base, but this is not going to expand the tent. i think this is desperate, and i think it shows that he knows he's in trouble. >> reverend al, we've known donald trump for a long time. you've known him longer than i have. what we saw yesterday was another exhibit of a badly damaged man on stage, and i don't know about you, but watching him, it occurred to me that the culture has passed him by. he's playing an old-school politics that has always worked for him, hate, envy, resentment, fear of the other, but the culture that we live in today is so accelerated that you can measure it by a stopwatch. it just moves so quickly, and his act is old. he's got an old act, and as mara pointed out, he knows partially,

internally, that it's old, and it's not working, and now he's confronted by an opponent who has electrified the democratic party within a week, electrified the party. where do you think trump is going to go on this? >> well, first of all, what has been perplexing to me is that we have been asking the wrong question. a lot of people, when it came out that the national association of black journalists had invited him was saying, why would you invite him? the real question is why did he accept? he accepted to go and do exactly what he did. he wanted to go and say, i will stand up to these blacks. i will put them in line. that has been the basis of his campaign, to go from obama is not american to harris is not black is the same song, just a different lyric, and that is what he feels put him in the white house in '16, and it will put him in the white house now.

i think you're right when you say it's an old song, but if you're an old singer and you only have one song, you've got to sing it and hope the crowd likes oldies but goodies, and that is what he is doing. he went there to confront black journalists. if those black journalists, some -- many objected, but if those black journalists on the stage thought they were going to do an interview with a presidential candidate who came to woo black voters, they were the ones mistaken. he knew exactly, if they had opened up saying, good afternoon, mr. trump, we're glad to have you. how is your wife and kids? he would have did the same thing. secondly, when they asked about, is she a dei candidate and he asked her to define it and they went back and forth on defining it, he doesn't know what dei is. all he knows is it stands for diversity and blacks and others, and therefore he's against it because his crowd is against it. he is not one that knows any policy. he knows nothing about content,

and if you look at donald trump yesterday, you're looking at a performer who never read briefings, never knows content, and he's going up against a woman who's thoughtful, who has a proven track record, who now is going to get every ball that -- barack obama got -- he was a graduate, but donald trump said he's not american, and i have his birth certificate which he never delivered. he's going to now deliver she was indian when she was celebrated as the first black district attorney in san francisco, first black attorney general in california, first black woman u.s. senator from california, first black woman vice president, but all of a sudden, we didn't know she was black? i mean, how long are we going to keep playing this old song of donald trump? donald, it's time to get off the stage and let some folks come on. >> yeah. there was one more thing that i noticed when i watched the event yesterday, which was the deeply held personal racial contempt

that donald trump showed for the black women. >> absolutely. >> for those interviewing him and the journalists in the room. i believe it's going to be for if he takes up kamala harris' challenge to debate him, that will be a problem for him, and for the right-wing base. he couldn't help himself. it was almost as though he could not take -- personally take the fact that these black women on stage had the platform. >> you don't think they belong on the stage. you're black and you're a woman. >> that's right. >> you shouldn't be in here questioning me. >> right. >> by the way, you couldn't even get the sound right. you black folks don't even know how to -- i'm late because you couldn't get the sound. >> right. >> because you big girls don't know any better. the whole thing was his attitude which is why i have been marching on him for 30 years. i wasn't surprised. i was surprised that everybody was surprised. >> mara, this is a subject so your most recent piece about

which is what happens when donald trump is challenged by black women, and we should note this is the first time donald trump has faced tough questions in a long time. he simply doesn't sit for interviews like this. he thought he was going to benefit, but he made other news too including on the january 6th convictions. let's look at that now. >> i would love to ask you about january 6th. you've called yourself the candidate of law and order. >> yeah. >> when "time" magazine asked you if you would consider pardoning all the rioters, you said absolutely. >> sure. >> you called them patriots. 140 police officers were assaulted that day. their injuries included broken bones. at least one officer lost an eye. one had two cracked ribs. two smashed spinal disks. another had a stroke. were the people who assaulted those 140 officers including those i just mentioned, patriots who deserve pardons?

>> let me bring it back to modern day, five days ago. we had an attack on the capitol. a horrible attack on the capitol. you saw the people that were protesting and spraying these incredible monuments, bells, limestone and granite with red paint, red spray paint that will never actually come off, especially in the limestone. i'm a builder. i know about this stuff. it'll never -- you'll see it in 100 years from now. they viciously attacked our government. they fought with police. they fought with them much more openly than i saw on january 6th. what's going to happen to those people? what's going to happen to the people in portland that destroyed that city? >> my question is -- me question is on those rioters who assaulted officers. >> excuse me. you have to answer. what's going to happen -- absolutely, i would. >> you would parten them? >> if they were innocent, i would pardon them. >> they have been convicted. >> charlie sykes, donald trump says if they were innocent, and then he's reminded, well, they were convicted, but this is him

leaning in again, to the base play and just shredding any sense of norms about the democracy, but also -- >> yes. >> -- law and order. >> well, first of all, i like to just say, rachel scott, i put her on the master class of interviewing. i know there's a controversy about platforming him, but i think she exposed him and very, very impressive, the fact she kept coming back to these questions, but again, this is a revealing question that first of all, there's going to be no new donald trump. donald trump has been saying this now for months, that he is embraing the january 6th attackers and she made it very graphic. she was specifically talking about the rioters who attack and beat police officers, and he kept deflecting. he kept refusing to answer. he kept coming back to it, and the one clear answer was, absolutely he intends to pardon them. so, you know, i watched this performance and his rally last night, and we can talk about, you know, what his strategy was

and what he intended to do, but i also think, you know, what you're also thinking is this is complete lack of impulse control, you know, that as mike barnicle says, this is a deeply damaged man who is really sort of, you know, once again in the stage of his career. he's just, you know, i thought it was very revealing that in his statement, he's just going back to when he came down the golden escalator back in 2015. this man is relitigaing his original playbook because that's what he's got, and i think that's what -- that was what my takeaway from all of this was, that he keeps going back to things that he thinks work, and i also agree with mike when he says that you really have the sense of, this is a man who thinks that things that worked back in 2015 are going to work now and the culture has not changed, but it was a bizarre performance, and i'm really glad that they invited him and that

they've shown the spotlight on what's going on inside this deeply damaged 78-year-old man's mind. >> charlie sykes, thank you for joining us this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we will have much more from donald trump's combative appearance at that conference of black journalists, including what he had to say about his new running mate, jd vance. plus, new overnight. israel has confirmed that the leader of hamas' military wing was killed in a recent strike. it comes amid growing fears of a broader war in the region. richard haass and retired admiral james stavridis will both join us next with their analysis. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be back in 90 seconds. wa" we'll be back in 90 seconds. why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed? i need help with her snoring. sleep number does that.

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the israeli defense forces say the leader of hamas' military wing was killed and a gaza air strike back on july the 13th. that's according to a spokesperson for the idf who says he was struck when fighter jets hit an area in the southern city. that military chief is believed to have been one of the master minds behind the october 7th terrorist attack on israel. meanwhile, iran's supreme leader has issued an order for the country to strike israel directly in response for a strike in tehran that killed the leader of hamas. that's cork to the "new york times," to reporter who was briefed. hamas has accused israel of launching the lethal strike into

the iranian capital while israel has neither confirmed nor denied that it carried it out. the official who spoke to "the times" says israel's commanders are considering another combination attack of drones and missiles on military targets in tel aviv, and would make. they intended to instill deep regret in the perpetrator. joining us now, president emeritus of the council of foreign relations, richard haass. he's the author of the weekly newsletter "home and away," and allied commander of nato, refired four-star navy admiral, james stavridis. james, let me start with you. the signals from tehran seemed to be that they have to retaliate in some way, but i'm reading them as saying they don't want to escalate this further than necessary. is that too optimistic a reading

of what tehran might be thinking at the moment? >> it's a hopeful rating, but it's largely accurate. i would say it's an 80% chance they want to keep this thing contained. i think there's always in a situation like this, we all know this in history, kind of a 20% chance of some kind of escalation, perhaps a miscalculation. i think the question is how are they going to respond, katty, and just to do it by dominion if you will, they could go by air and they could do another wide-range, massive drone kind of attack. throw in more ballistic missiles. it could narrow that and go after one specific target making the air defense harder. they could go maritime and go after some of the israeli offshore infrastructure. they could go by land if you will, special operations, trying to assassinate one of the israeli leaders, and then

finally, they could use cyber although i think they're overmatched in cyber. so they've got a lot of options. i think they will want to keep it contained, however, i'll close with this. in the last couple of days, you've seen these two assassinations, one in u.s. terms, it would be like killing a combatant commander up in lebanon. say the commander of all forces in central command, general corella, and at the inauguration of the iranian president, they take out essentially the number two figure of hamas. that's like taking out vice president harris, and oh by the way, they've just confirmed the killing of a month or so ago. that's like taking out lloyd austin. so the proxies are really getting smashed here. iran is going to respond. let's hope your prescription is right, katty. >> richard, let's pick up on the admiral's point there.

i want to know how the u.s. is perceiving this. in the wake of the soccer field attack that killed teenagers and children, and they feel that strike in beirut was proportional. that's what do you in the wake of devastation. we should note israel has not claimed responsibility for what happened in tehran. there's a widely held belief they were behind it, but that's a different thing, and the u.s. feel like that's a significant escalation. the question is, why did israel do it, and what impact do you think it has on the ongoing ceasefire talks in gaza and the threat of a wider war? >> look. there's a difference. as you point out, it's one thing to go after the military commander in lebanon. something very different to go after, the lead person for hamas, who's conducting the negotiations to free the hostages. this is further evidence as if you needed it, that priority for israel, for this israeli government is not freeing the hostages. it is decimaing hamas, and i think it tells you -- it

obviously makes the negotiations that much more of a long shot. the united states can urge that these negotiations go ahead. we will, and one way or another, work around this. i think also we'll probably push for some kind of a lebanon. we'll get them to go in heavily and go hezbollah. to see if you can come one a diplomatic arrangement there, rather than essentially a new war. the danger is that you've got two possibilities though of major war. interestingly enough, jonathan, not in gaza. gaza is done militarily. israel has pretty much run out of attackable targets. one is the north, whether you're going to have a major escalation between hezbollah. the other is israel and iran, and jim stavridis was talking about, can you orchestrate this? we were this close in april between israel and iran having a war, and imagine if one of those

drones had struck. not one caused a loss of life. if this time they shoot however many weapons at israel, one of them may cause a loss of life. israel will go back hard. the question is can we navigate or orchestrate this? i think we were incredibly fortunate in april. i'm not so confident we would be as fortunate now, and iran will feel -- iran was humiliated going after haniyeh. it's a humiliation of the president of iran and of iran themselves. it showed again they cannot protect their own territory. coming up, we'll talk to the democrat taking on kari lake for the u.s. senate in november. rueben gallego will be with us to talk about taking on one of trump's ardent supporters. that's coming up on "morning joe." supporters. that's coming up on "morning joe.

welcome back.

we have breaking news to nbc news. per a senior administration official, there is a prisoner swap under way right now between russia, the united states, and other countries. katty, that is all we have at this moment, but some breaking news, developing story, that we will follow as the morning goes on. >> this is something that's been talked about quite a lot over the last few hours. obviously online. we have been waiting to get this kind of confirmation, these kind of prisoner swaps are extremely sensitive. of course, john, you know this. we look, all of us, back to 2022 in december when brittney griner, the american basketball player was swapped for viktor bout, the arms dealer, and it was a very complicated dance to get things in place. you have to get the trust on both sides. there are, of course, a lot of high-profile american prisoners being held in russia at the moment who the americans say are being held unjustly, and we can't report any more on who's

being part of this prisoner swap. there have been implications this might be a broad deal, multiple countries involved, and we'll have to see what the russians are getting and what the russians are giving because in these situations, the russians take these american prisoners for one reason only. they take them as political hostages in order to capitalize on holding them in order to get something back. so we'll have to wait and see. we'll get more information. of course, we'll report that to everybody as it comes out, but all we're getting at the moment is a senior administration official saying there is a prisoner swap taking place with russia at the moment. >> all right. katty kay, just to recap the news this morning, from senior administration officials, breaking news. fast-moving developments. there is a prisoner swap, a significant prisoner swap under way between the united states, russia, and other countries, but that is all we have at this moment. things are still fluid. we will, of course, keep everyone apprised as we learn more. as katty just mentioned, despite

the ongoing war between russia and ukraine, there have been some prisoner swaps that have occurred in the last couple of years, most notably brittany -- brittney griner, the wnba star, but this is all we have at this moment. >> yeah. i mean, one other thing that is worth noting is that when brittney griner was released back in 2022, and this is of course, before evan gershkovich, "the wall street journal" reporter was taken. we know the americans at the white house wanted to get paul whelan, the american contractor out as part of that deal, and there was a lot of back and forth of could they get paul whelan and brittney griner out in exchange for viktor bout who was a high-profile arms dealer, a controversial figure. we've seen the extraordinary scenes of brittney griner and viktor bout crossing each other in the tarmac in the uae and coming out that way, and there

was speculation that maybe paul whelan could have been part of that package. he wasn't part of that package in the end. the russians eventually said to the white house, look. it's going to be one for one. take it or leave it. you get brittney griner, but you don't get the two of them. we know -- every time these prisoners are raised, the white house has told us we're work hard. we're working hard behind the scenes. we don't want this out in the public. we prefer to deal in back channels. the kremlin said the same thing. this shouldn't be a public discussion. there's been little about the public discussion in the white house and the state department. every time they ask, they say, we're working very hard on this, and the families of those prisoners who are being held in russia also being kept in touch, of course, through the state department continuously about those ongoing negotiations. >> we are working on this story and reaching out to reporters in the field throughout the network. we'll be back with more after a short break. we'll be back witho short break.

welcome back to "morning

joe." 8:38 a.m. eastern time, recapping the breaking news, fast-moving breaking news per a senior administration official. there is a prisoner swap under way right now between russia, the united states, and other countries. that is all we know. that is all we can say. that is all we can report at this moment, katty, but a moment of significance, it would appear. >> yeah. i mean, obviously what we're hearing from senior administration officials is that this is a prisoner swap between russia, the united states, and other countries. now for the families of american prisoners who are being held in russia, this is extremely important news. there are americans who are being held in russian jails who the white house says are being held without reason, who should not be being held as prisoners, and the families will all be watching very carefully to see who is getting out and who is part of this prisoner swap, john. >> and joining us now, nbc senior white house correspondent gabe gutierrez, gabe at the

white house. what do we know? >> reporter: hi there, jonathan. as you're seeing, the situation is very fluid right now, and there is a lot we can't report. since these prisoner swaps tend to be ongoing situations and there are a lot of concerns over security at this point, but as you said, according to senior administration officials, we can report that the parties agreed to agreement transfer and they're soon expected to be in u.s. custody. now what we have been hearing from the white house for the last several months is that the white house has been working around the clock -- the national security team has been working around the clock to secure the release of some high-profile prisoners in russia including evan gershkovich and also paul whelan. again, we do not know for certain if they are involved in the prisoner swap, but it's something we're watching closely. i know at the white house correspondents' dinner for example, president biden speaking about evan gershkovich

still in custody saying that he gave his word as a biden administration was doing everything it could to bring these prisoners home. we're waiting for any more information we can report, but according to that senior administration official, some type of prisoner swap is under way. still some questions about how large it is, and whether some of those high-profile prisoners that we have been waiting for more information on, for example, paul whelan and evan gershkovich if they're involved in this swap. >> gabe, we don't know yet entirely what's going to happen here. just recap for us if you will what the mood is like there at the white house, people you're talking to. this comes, of course, as the war in ukraine rages on, fighting in a stalemate, but continuing each and every day. just reset and remind viewers just the a backdrop of this news now that a major prisoner swap may be under way. >> reporter: certainly, jonathan, and look. this is something that the biden administration has placed a high

emphasis on, and it's another foreign policy challenge that the white house has been -- has been dealing with over the past several months. certainly very tense relationship with russia as the war in ukraine rages on, and some -- the family members of paul whelan had expected for example, that he might be involved in some earlier prisoner swaps. evan gershkovich of course, "the wall street journal," and colleagues here at the white house have been waiting for any news on his potential -- any potential release. he was, of course, sentenced to 16 years in a russian jail just earlier this month, and the white house has been under increasing pressure to try and secure the release of any of these prisoners, and right now what we're hearing and, again, the situation is very fluid at this point, but that there is some type of prisoner swap under way. we are eagerly awaiting any more

details we can report as the situation continues to unfold, john. >> and to reiterate what you said a moment ago. we know there are a number of americans who are currently in russian custody. that includes paul whelan, the former -- the u.s. marine, evan gershkovich, "the wall street journal" reporter. we do not know if they're involved with what's happening right now. we do know as gabe -- as you just said, that the white house and administration has been clear that gershkovich, not guilty of being -- of what russia has accused him of being, which is some sort of spy. gabe, again, as we sort out what's happening here, talk to us about how these negotiations often go. they're done in secret, and whether with russia or other nations, take us behind the scenes. what are these prisoner swaps like and how do they get done? >> we have heard from jake

sullivan that this is a very difficult thing to together, and potentially if it involves multiple countries, that -- it is extremely difficult to try and get these clandestine negotiations over many months, and certainly there are -- there have been some high-profile russian prisoners in custody in other countries perhaps that vladimir putin could have been waiting for in order to trade some of these american prisoners, but this -- this happens -- these negotiations continue for many months. in some cases, even years, and national security officials here at the white house say that it could go either way, and for the families of these prisoners, they get their hopes up. they think a prisoner swap could be on the horizon, but then those hopes are dashed because of world events.

certainly the war in ukraine, the increased tensions between russia and the united states may have put this -- put this potential prisoner swap in jeopardy. over the last several months, russia ramping up its offensive in ukraine, and also the increasing rhetoric between the united states and russian president vladimir putin. despite all that, we're told that these negotiations have continued for those high-profile prisoners in russia. again, we're still awaiting confirmation on which prisoners are involved in this prisoner swap, but as we understand it, those prisoners, whoever they may be, are soon expected to be in u.s. custody according to a u.s. official, and now that prisoner swap is -- is under way, unclear of what stage it is at this point, john. >> okay. gabe gutierrez for us at the white house, and do come back us to. let us know if you have any more reporting or details that we can add, and that we are able to report. this is a very sensitive,

ongoing mission, and we have been careful about what we report and don't report, and we want to get this right and don't want to put it in jeopardy. joining us now, chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. is there anything else you can add? given -- understanding the full sensitivity of this, is there anything more you can add to this at the moment? >> you know, clearly what is reportable is from a senior administration official, that there is a prisoner swap under way, but that these prisoners are not yet released into american custody at this moment, and until that happens, we're not going to report anything that we may know about the specific prisoners, the number of prisoners, and who is involved. we can just talk about what we know, what i know from covering this story for more than a year is that there has been an intensive effort to try to win the release of the "wall street journal" reporter, a completely innocent journalist, evan gershkovich, and for him and his

family, this has been really torturous, and for all of to his colleagues at the "wall street journal". it marked a change because after he was accused of espionage, many american and western news organizations withdrew their journalists from moscow. accredited journalists who had worked with the foreign ministry for decades, but it was no longer safe for americans to travel certainly, and there have been travel warnings for quite some time about this. we know what happened with brittney griner, and brittney griner was eventually exchanged as you know, for viktor bout who was an arms dealer, not a spy, but viktor bout was an arms dealer in american custody, but according to all of my reporting for more than year now, he was the last russian spy or russian high-level prisoner who was in american custody. so i have been told for quite some time that this would definitely have to involve other nations, other american allies being willing to release their

prisoners, their russian prisoners, people that they have worked very hard to capture, in exchange to try to get americans out, and so to make that possible, clearly this had to be a very carefully, you know, very complicated deal if it, in fact, has taken place, and that's what we are talking about. there was a great deal of reporting, ours and others, and public reporting, acknowledgment that there is a russian assassin convicted of killing people in berlin, in germany on a life sentence, and that is the one person that vladimir putin has told a lot of people, told the late bill richardson, told u.s. negotiators that he wanted back. germany was not willing to release him. we reported exclusively early they are year and again in july that germany was now willing to consider at least that kind of an exchange, and that that could

possibly open the way. the other key factor is that evan gershkovich was sentenced on july 16th, you know, to 16 years just a few weeks ago. it was a very harsh sentence, but the hope was that the only bright side of that was that brittney griner had to be sentenced in go through the entire sham court process in russia before they would even consider a trade, that was their red line. so if that's possible -- that was one little ray of sunshine, and of course, paul whelan was left behind last time when brittney griner came out. there was so much pressure and attention focused on her and she was unlawfully detained and wrongfully detained, but, you know, whelan was left behind, and he had already been there for more than four years, now more than five years also on a completely false espionage charge, a former marine a businessman who was just in russia doing private business, and so that would be the hope,

that this time there has been multiple statements that paul whelan would not be left behind again. >> andrea, i remember when paul whelan was -- the americans -- the white house was hoping that he could be part of that brittney griner exchange. >> exactly. >> in the end, the russians said, it's going t one for one. take it or leave it. we remember those extraordinary scenes of brittney griner crossing viktor bout on the tarmac. this was cold war stuff, crossing viktor bout in the uae. can you give us a little sense of the kinds of conditions that these american prisoners are being held these american prisoners are being held in in russia, which has hadded to the urgency to get them back, because the conditions of some of these russian prisoners are horrendous. >> once they're in these labor

camps, they are very, very cold. they don't have decent clothing. they don't have good food at all. they have gruel or water. someone like britney griner, 6'9", gets maybe an hour a day of exercise or less. they're in cramped cells and very harsh conditions. navalny did not survive his treatment in one of the worst prison camps. he died, in fact, when the european security members were all gathered in munich. navalny's wife was there. she's a resident of germany. a lot of exiled friends of his

were there at the time of navalny's death. navalny's death is just an indication of someone who was very healthy when he was first taken into custody and then died a few years later. we've also heard that another american green card holder and his family lives in mclean, virginia. he was immediately arrested. his friends have been telling me for quite some time that he is not doing well in prison. >> let's add to the conversation. mark, you're familiar with some of these clandestine deals.

more broadly, talk to us about how these swaps come about. >> one of the key things to understand is that even in the darkest days of the cold war, the cia and kgb maintained open channels just for things like that. we still do have that channel, and that's where these discussions take place. it looked like -- and i think a lot of us have known this was coming for quite some time. we have lists of people we think are involved in the swap. it's not the right place to talk

about that. it is unprecedented in size, and a lot of work by the biden administration to make this happen. i think there's going to be a lot of joy over the next several hours when news comes out. it's the notion that the u.s. and even our adversaries must maintain open lines of communication, particularly in intelligence channels. unfortunately, the conviction of evan gershkovich actually led the way. >> mark, stay with us. we're not sure yet who's involved in this deal. we need to take a quick break. more in just a moment. e a quick. more in just a moment. on summer vacation. join millions of families who've trusted us

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just before 9:00 a.m. here on the east coast. we have breaking news. a prisoner swap is under way between the united states, russia and other countries this morning, according to a senior biden administration official. the trade is a rare example of cooperation amid heightened political tensions between the u.s. and russia. the most high-profile knownist prisoners in russia are evan gershkovich and paul whelan. it is not confirmed if they are part of this particular swap, but certainly a good sign that even in a time of war, there in ukraine, the u.s. and russia can make a deal like this. we're learning more as we go. >> yeah. full disclosure, you may hear and see things on the internet. we're being very careful about what we report because this is

an ongoing prisoner swap. it's not clear yet who these prisoners may be from either side. nobody wants to do anything to jeopardize them. both sides are very wary of each other in these situations. let's talk about the kinds of negotiations that go on behind the scenes. we know every time they're asked about this, the administration says they are working very hard on this. jake sullivan said this was an absolute priority when he was asked about this back in july. the biden administration was determined to bring these prisoners back. what are the kind of negotiations that take place to get this kind of deal? >> sure. first of all, you have to know what the other side wants. i think with the united states, it was pretty clear that in

essence a russian intelligence assassin, again, not knowing he's involved in the swap, but that's who vladimir putin wanted back badly. that's where the negotiations start. of course, it's not necessarily fair in the sense of those being held in russia are innocent. those who the russians want back perhaps have a lot of blood on their hands. i think the american negotiators have to get past that a bit and understand that on the face of it this is not a spy swap. this is not a trade of where two countries intelligence agents get caught. but we have to find out what the russians want. i think we know quite well. again, not getting into the details of this, it's clear this is a prisoner exchange in terms of multiple countries. you have to look towards germany, because that's where

one was held. it goes to show the importance of the intelligence channels. the trust developed in this case would be between the u.s. and german intelligence. hard, tough negotiations that take a lot of time. i think the biden administration was correct months and months ago to make that statement that they will work assiduously to get our people back. there's going to be some joy today for many u.s. families. >> i keep going back to that extraordinary image of britney griner and victor boot literally passing each other on the tarmac at a uae airport. what are the sensitivities on the day itself? i imagine until those american prisoners are actually in american custody in a friendly nation, are people sitting there

with their heart in their hand hoping this all goes wrong? or is it all pretty much worked out and the chances of things going wrong are minimal? >> there's always that pucker factor in the end, because things can fall apart. when things start leaking, i think msnbc has been very careful not to talk about names, because then what starts happening is, was this trade fair or not, did the u.s. win out, did russia win out? you have domestic constituents in each of these countries that are going to criticize these moves. so secrecy is of the utmost importance. i've not personally been involved in these exchanges, but i have very good friends who have been on places like a tarmac seeing this happen. you see someone regaining their freedom, looking at a u.s. official who had, in essence,

fulfilled our promise to never forget. so really dramatic moments. but when it comes to the end, you really worry about leaks. that's why we're being responsible not talking about names, because again, people are going to nitpick this. this comes down to one person making the ultimate decision for the exchange, and that's president biden. biden was criticized for the griner exchange because giving up victor boot was a lot. but when you get an american home, it's a pretty powerful image. it's a pretty incredible feeling for the administration, but it comes down to american prisoners not being left behind. >> talk to us about the added challenge of a swap like this occurring at a time of war. russia's invasion of ukraine is continuing today and will continue tomorrow. of course, tensions between moscow and washington are high,

communications largely broken down. yet, this channel was preserved. speak to us about the unique circumstances here. >> that's the beauty and sometimes the strangeness of the u.s. intelligence channel. these are really important and critical issues. there is an ability to compartmentalize the rest of what's happening. the u.s. is helping ukraine kill russians. at the same time, we're going to look at our counterpart and act in a professional manner. the russians for the most part are going to do the same. that's the part of the intelligence channel that's important. it's done out of sight. i would not be surprised if the u.s. intelligence officers

dealing with their russian counterparts have extensive experience. i wouldn't say a level of trust is built up, but certainly a level of understanding. there's not that kind of political vitriol. we're trying to get this done. how is this exchange going to occur. >> we know that other nations are involved in this deal. talk to us, if you will, about the importance of a third party, another nation stepping in to help broker a deal like this. you mentioned the britney griner/victor boot swap involved the uae. there are times a third country or a fourth country would be involved. why is that so not just important, but essential?

>> the uae plays an interesting role in the world. they do have somewhat positive relations with the russians. so you actually are going to use some of your allies perhaps to send messages, perhaps to sound out the other side. in this case, again, what we're hearing is multiple countries involved in this swap. it might be enlisting the help of other countries that have individuals the russians want. this may be a country such as germany actually doing something and some also risk internally for them if they are, in fact, releasing someone who is convicted for murder. again, it's based on a close bilateral relationship.

germany is going to be asked why did you do this? the relationship is ironclad and is ultimately going to serve both sides. the intelligence channels used under the table, out of sight, multiple different countries. i think the swap, if it is as big as we think it is, is going to be unprecedented. i don't think we've ever seen anything like this. >> katty kay, we're at 9:06 now on the east coast. we know that russia, the united states and other nations are involved in a significant prisoner swap. we don't have the identities of the prisoners involved. there is some chatter out there of who may be, but for security purposes we're not going there at this time. we're being very mindful that this is an ongoing process and that the success of the deal is paramount beyond what you and i or anyone else could say here. >> to be clear with our

audience, we are obviously hearing information. we're not reporting that because nobody wants to jeopardize an ongoing prisoner swap. it's not clear exactly what stage this is at, where the prisoners from both sides are. we are not reporting who those prisoners are, the size of this or the countries involved, but it looks like it's going to be a big prisoner swap of some significance. we've been talking about the high-profile americans held in russia. joining us is michael mcfaul. what can you tell us about what's going on and how we might have got to this point? >> in the spirit of what you just said, i won't name names. it's very appropriate not to do so right now. what i've been hearing for a

while now, not just in the last 12 histories, to confirm what you all are talking about -- and forgive me, i just woke up in california, so i haven't heard everything you've been talking about. but there are negotiations under way with multiple countries and multiple russians and americans. that's what i've been hearing from my source, not just americans, but this is a much bigger swap than that that could involve -- and i won't name names on purpose -- but could involve some russian opposition leaders who have been held in jail, people i know personally, and by all accounts, there are people i know who are involved in this who are cautiously optimistic that this is going to be a really great day for american diplomacy. >> let's talk about this from the russian side. in any prisoner swap, it is a

quid pro quo. we know vladimir putin really wanted victor boot released and that the americans held him. when britney griner was in prison, there was a fairly clear trade to be made. the americans hoped they'd get paul whelan, the american contractor out, but the kremlin said, no, we're only going to be doing one for one. how do these negotiations play out? >> first, i was involved in the swap in 2010, which was a really big, elaborate swap. we keep using the word alleged spies, because nobody was ever proven guilty on the russian side. that was really elaborate. this seems even much more

elaborate from what i'm hearing. the main reason is because there is a killer in germany that is, i think, the focus just like victor boot was. even when i was in the government a decade ago, they were trying to get victor boot out by all minutes necessary. that have been focused on krasikov because he's an intelligence officer. he's an assassin. from putin's point of view, he's one of theirs. putin has this norm that they all do, these former kgb guys, we don't leave anybody behind. it's a brotherhood. he did a patriotic act, putin's words, not mine. he has been the key. the problem, of course, for the

biden administration is this kras kov is in jail in germany, not in the united states. when a german citizen who's been in belarus had some new status, a new immunity status, when that happened mr. lukashenko, my antennae went off, aha, now they have somebody they can swap for this guy kras kov. again, i don't want to get ahead of our skis and you are saying be careful here, rightly. but the united states, russia, belarus, maybe even slovenia where it's multiple different actors meeting on some tarmac somewhere in europe. >> there has been reporting in recent days about prisoners in the russian penal system

disappearing from registries and such, fuelling speculation that something might be up. michael mcfaul, please stay with us. joining us on the phone is david ignatius. there is a prisoner swap under way. we are not identifying who may involved in this swap for security purposes. tell us what it means and what it tells us about the ability for russia and the u.s. to still come to an agreement on some things. >> first, it means just how hard the united states has been working to put together a swap that could get the key u.s. prisoners unjustly charged out of russia. it has taken a big deal.

i have been hearing the u.s. was looking for prisoners in other countries that might be able to be part of a swap, in effect, put enough on the table to convince russia to release the key prisoners. i think we can identify the main points of view as concern in recent months for evan gershkovich and paul whelan. so to have sufficient leverage to make a deal to get them out, the u.s. has been searching, talking to allies, is this prisoner somebody you might put on the table as part of a larger deal? it's horrible to think of trading human beings in this way to put together a deal to bring, in our view, innocent people home. it appears they are near having

achieved that deal. i think the reconstructions of how this has happened, the officials will tell us will be a fascinating glimpse into diplomacy. it's almost crass in some ways, as i say, trading in human beings, amassing enough human capital to exchange across the table. >> we're looking at the shot of the white house there while you were speaking. president biden does not have anything on his public schedule today. that, of course, could change if events warrant. we also mentioned the irresponsible rhetoric from donald trump how he could have gotten a deal done. we will set that aside. that rhetoric, always dangerous. we still don't know a lot of specifics today, as we've been stressing. talk to us about how difficult these swaps are.

you've covered them for years. no one knows international diplomacy better than you. we're being so careful here because things can go awry even at the last minute. walk us through the process, david. >> this typically begins with feelers, often intermediaries not directly connected with either government who make the initial approaches. there was a prominent attorney in paris who was for years seen as the person who could begin to get these deals started. in reading memoirs and talking to some of the people released over the years, those final minutes as people sit on an airplane about to leave russia, uncertain whether the deal will hold, uncertain sometimes where they're going. sometimes they haven't been informed what's up.

they've just been transferred, often hooded, from where they were and taken to an airplane. then that dawning realization that they're heading toward freedom. one of the most horrifying things that have happened in recent history is when people have been occasionally released in prisoner swaps, the russians have set them free from prison and they have gone to other countries. the russians have pursued them to assassinate them once they were in their new country. it underlines why, i think, people are so nervous about the details of this. people can have targets on their back up until the moment they leave and even after in this very brutal situation. in terms of the larger u.s./russian picture, this has been a period of unique, in my

memory, a lack of real contact, the fact that this channel seems to have been opened perhaps signals some broader reconnection. the ukrainians in the last month have been signaling their interest perhaps in talking with china about a possible diplomatic resolution of the ukraine war. that has happened at the same time as this. i don't mean to to connect it, but whenever you have openings, you can't help but wonder whether one will lead to another. basically today, if this deal goes through, it's a day for rejoicing when people unjustly held will be free. >> joining us from paris, keir simmons. in washington, ken dilanian. keir, let me start with you, because you've spent time in russia more recently than any of us. what is your understanding about

what the kremlin wanted all along from holding these american prisoners? >> reporter: well, i questioned president putin back in march about evan gershkovich and others, including alexei navalny. that was just after his election victory, if you want to call it that. i asked him then why he was continuing to hold evan gershkovich during his election and how it was that alexei navalny died during his election. he gave me an answer that made news. it was also, i think, interesting to consider now again. he claims that he had agreed to a prisoner swap deal for navalny and then navalny had died. now, clearly, you have to take things that president putin says with a massive grain of salt, but it was one of a number of

indications that president putin has been making in recent months that he did want to see a prisoner swap. it also goes to the point that you were rightly making just a moment ago on the show that you have to be really careful with these things. if you just take ostensibly what president putin said there, on face value, he was suggesting he'd agreed to a prisoner swap and one of those prisoners had died in a russian jail. you can understand why all parties in this are being incredibly cautious. what president putin has wanted and has basically said he's wanted in all but name is the release of kras kov, the russian held in germany held there for an assassination he carried out in a park in germany. is that one of the people that

is party to this prisoner swap? we don't know, but we do know that the russians have been very clear that is somebody they have wanted to see release. president putin has called him a patriot anddescribed what he did in germany as liquidating a bandit. that paints a picture why this might be so complex. if you think about it, if one of the targets from russia has been trying to release a russian in germany, then you'd need someone in the german government to do that. the optics would be difficult for the german government, and they need to be able to explain why. i think that is one of the reasons why these negotiations potentially have been so difficult. again, we really want to be careful and you guys have been careful not least because these things can fall apart, but also

because there are families watching and worrying about their loved ones in the u.s. and other parts of the world. is that what has been agreed here? will this be considered to be a major political victory for the biden administration? if someone like kras kov is released, i think there will be questions about releasing someone convicted of murder in order to try and bring back prisoners from russia who were wrongly imprisoned. there are quite a number of americans held in russia. are they all being released today if anyone is? >> as michael mcfaul was saying earlier, there is a german citizen being held in belarus who just in the last couple of days had a death sentence commuted to a life sentence. is that part of the negotiation package that has been going on? it is 4:22 in russia, 3:22 on

the european continent, 9:22 in the u.s. in washington as everyone is waking up to this. ken dilanian, as you're talking to your sources in the intelligence community there on the east coast, what are you hearing? >> reporter: i think keir simmons just put his finger on the imbalance here that really sticks in the craw particularly of justice officials who are involved in negotiating these kinds of swaps. they are trading people who were lawfully convicted under our laws or under the laws of germany for serious crimes. they're trading those people for innocent americans who were essentially seized as state-sponsored hostages. they hate doing that. they hate it. they understand why they have to do it. they often argue against it in private meetings in the halls of

government in washington, and they try to limit the damage, as they see it. you know, one of the issues here that made this negotiation difficult is, the united states doesn't actually have very many or any sort of pure russian spies convicted of espionage sitting in american jails. what they have are alleged businessmen convicted of, for example, smuggling american technology to help the russian war effort or people convicted of cyber crimes. in one case, there's a russian who was convicted of hacking the sec to get insider information and making millions of dollars. so the fbi investigated that for years. that person may have ties to russian intelligence. there's been a lot of reporting about that. but these are the kind of people that the u.s. has to trade. again, the justice department hates to give those people up. they were lawfully convicted, in many cases, sentenced to years in prison.

then you have the person the russians most want, this hit man sitting in a german prison who essentially was convicted of walking up to a russian in the park in berlin and shooting him in the back of the head with a silenced pistol. it doesn't get more crass than that. in order for this to have worked, the u.s. would have had to convince, assuming this is who russia wants badly, the u.s. would have had to convince the german government to give that person up. so then what does the german government get out of it? there are german citizens, of course, detained in russia. this is a complicated dance here with a lot of equity involved. again, i cannot stress enough how painful this is for these

americans. the last time a big one of these happened was in 2010. there were ten russian illegals under deep cover here in the united states. their job was to spot, assess and help russian intelligence services commit espionage in the united states. the fbi investigated that for years and they tracked these people. they only arrested them when it was clear that one of them was going to leave the country. shortly after they announced this big case that was a triumph for the fbi, there was a trade and they were all gone and sent back to russia. anna chapman famously went on television in russia. that was the last one of these trades on a large scale. of course, there were many in the cold war and, of course, the britney griner for victor boot swap. >> joining us, democratic congressman ruben gallego of

arizona. he's the democratic party's nominee for the u.s. senate seat in arizona that's on the ballot this november. congressman, thank you for joining us this morning. i don't know how much coverage you've been able to hear. we are reporting there was a major prisoner swap under way between the u.s., russia and other nations. we are not identifying or speculating as to who was involved, because the deal is not done just yet. talk to us as someone who is a veteran about what this deal means and how important it is for the united states government to keep its word and bring citizens home. >> the most important thing you can do as a government is keep your word to citizens that we will protect you in moments like this and we'll do anything to get you back. it's one thing you hear in the military. if you're captured, the u.s. will do everything to bring you back. the fact that this

administration has done that -- again, i don't know the details and i don't want to speculate -- but i think we should always celebrate when we're able to bring americans back to home soil. i'm extremely glad for the families. i don't know who's involved, but i'm happy for the families, because this brings a lot of closure to some agonizing years caused by a rogue regime. the americans they are releasing, i almost guarantee you, were not worthy at all of being imprisoned by the way the russians had done it. >> congressman, we will have you back soon to talk about your race and other issues. right now, though, we're moving onto democratic congressman colin allred of texas, a candidate for senate vying to unseat senator ted cruz. we'll talk about your race another time, but now this morning amid this breaking news story, let's get your thoughts

as to this potential prisoner swap. not clear who was involved, but what it means for the biden administration and the u.s. government to bring some citizens home today. >> thank you for having me. i worked onto bring home britney griner and trevor reed. in all those cases, we wanted to make sure our folks knew this was going to be an unfair swap, that this wasn't going to be like for like, but it's one of our values as americans that we will bring home our people as long as it takes. i do hope when the details are released that we can keep in mind that what we're doing is showing our values by bringing home americans. the russians are also showing their values by being determined to bring home the type of people they want to bring home. that says a lot about us and a

lot about them. >> congressman colin allred, thank you for joining us this morning. ambassador michael mcfaul, let's return to you. let's talk about vladimir putin. president biden had to okay this from the u.s. end, that's true. give us your best estimate as someone who knows him well in terms of his thought process in terms of, first, collecting these prisoners and, second, using them as part of a deal. why did he say yes now? >> those are great questions. i don't have great answers. if you asked me two days ago, i would say he's not going to do this until after our election. he's going to want to do a favor for mr. trump by holding these people and waiting for that to

happen, not unlike what happens during the iranian hostage crisis in 1979-1980. so i'm surprised. i would have thought that's what he was going to do. i'm surprised that he did it now. it suggests to me that there may be something with respect to people's health that is involved here, not the americans to the best of my knowledge, but some of the russians -- and we're deliberately not naming names, but these are people i know well are not in good health. if there's anything to the story that somehow he was about to release navalny and then he died, which i don't believe for a heartbeat, but if you believe that, that may have been a triggering factor in terms of wanting to do this before some of the most prominent people died. and then, second, just what happened in belarus. i want to underscore that. that's already been reported. the german individual being held for terrorism had a new status.

that suggested to me that this guy you've been talking about, this goes way back, this guy kras kov, this hired assassin who killed somebody in a berlin park, cold-blooded murder. this is somebody putin talks about as a patriot. we're now beginning to see the contours of might be a multi-country deal involving many countries, not just one for one. we don't have a lot of spies right now. that's why this is a different kind of deal. >> ambassador mcfaul, stay with us. joining us now, president emeritus of the counsel on foreign relations, richard

hawes. thank you for returning here in light of this breaking news. as you've heard, we're being careful how we talk about this. but as someone who's worked in the white house in positions where delicate negotiations are a thing that happens with some frequency, talk to us about how you think this deal may have come about. >> it was long talked about. these things never happen suddenly. it's gradually, gradually, and then they happen. i agreed with mike mcfaul. i thought this was going to be post-election. maybe mr. putin has decided mr. trump is not going to be the next president of the united states and he decided better to do a favor for joe biden and kamala harris. that's probably a bridge too far. i agree with everything i've heard with one exception. we have to do these, i get it.

this is who we are. but the danger of these things is it reenforces putin's sense of impunity that he can dispatch his people to do all sorts of heinous things around the world knowing that when push comes to shove, we will be forced to enter deals to allow them to come home. he needs to show domesticity that people he would call patriots or people who work for russia. there is a cost to this as well. >> a lot of families anxiously awaiting news. we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, we'll get a live report from the white house. get a live report from the white house. and i'd weighed in at 345 pounds. my doctor prescribed a weight loss drug, but as soon as i stopped taking the drug, i gained all the weight back and then some. that's when i decided to give golo a try. taking the release supplement, i noticed a change within the first week,

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most people call leaffilter when their gutters are clogged and they notice one of the many issues that can bring. sometimes it's the smell of mildew when water has seeped into the interior walls. or maybe they've spotted mold in the attic. but most often it's the more obvious signs of damage like rotten soffit, fascia, or water pooling near their foundation. you can get ahead of costly damage by protecting your home's gutters today. we're in your neighborhood and ready to help. schedule your free gutter inspection today, call 833 leaffilter, or visit leaffilter.com welcome back to our breaking news coverage of an important prisoner swap deal ongoing at the moment between russia, the united states and other nations. that's been confirmed by senior white house officials. all the details we're leaving on

the table at the moment, because we don't want to jeopardize anything ongoing. let's bring in gabe gutierrez. what more do you have for us that we can report at the moment? >> reporter: as you said, the details are very, very fluid at this point. we're waiting until any of these prisoners are safely in u.s. custody. it's our understanding they are not just quite yet. we do understand from a senior administration official that prisoner swap is under way. the biden administration says it has made it a priority to get prisoners wrongfully detained around the world back home. it has done it for dozens of prisoners in multiple countries that have been returned to the u.s. since the beginning of the biden administration. if this does come to fruition, depending on how large it may be, it may be seen as a large

foreign policy win for the biden administration. jake sullivan had said these types of arrangements don't happen until they happen. there's several steps forward and several steps back. one question we may have is how the death of alexei navalny earlier this year may have been affected this prisoner swap. we know the family of paul whelan has been waiting for his release for quite some time. i should point out that earlier this year russian president vladimir putin suggested he may

have been open to such a deal. it was a controversial interview with tucker carlson earlier this year that he was asked about evan gershkovich and putin signalled a willingness to perhaps make a deal with other countries on that front. again, we don't have confirmation whether multiple countries may have been involved in this prisoner swap, but we're awaiting many more details in the next few hours as this unfolds on when these prisoners might be in u.s. custody and whether we get more information about how this came to be. but as i understand it from national security officials, these negotiations have been under way for quite some time. >> matt, you know russia well. why do you think vladimir putin may have been open to a prisoner swap of that sort of scale at

this moment? >> thank you. that is an excellent question. it's one that i think we've all been asking a lot recently. as gabe mentioned, it's interesting and useful to wind the clock back a little bit back to putin's earlier comments about a potential trade involving alexei navalny before he died. i will add to that that our own keir simmons asked putin at a press conference later about that situation, and president putin said when the idea was brought to him to trade alexei navalny as part of a much bigger swap including evan gershkovich and other americans, he said he was for it, but sadly navalny died. we heard this claim before putin addressed it coming from navalny's camp early on after his passing. then it disappeared from the narrative until putin brought it up again. so a lot of interesting

questions about how long this has been in the work and how alexei navalny's death played into it. russia is clearly concerned with primarily retrieving a hit man from the germans. that seems to be the cornerstone of the russian side of this trade as we understand their wish list here. but the assumption, i think, has been that if russia was going to try to engage with the united states on a large prisoner trade to get a bunch of mid-level cyber criminals and convicted spies from multiple countries back to russia, it would wait until after the u.s. election because the kremlin could decide when it was most advantageous to engage on this issue.

it's unclear why they've moved on it at this time. if you look back at the trial of evan gershkovich, when the verdict came and he was sentenced, that was unexpected. they moved quicker on that. there was a hearing scheduled to take place in august before that hearing last week was scheduled. so something impacted the timeline on his trial. we don't know if he's involved in this trade. we don't know who we're going to be seeing ostensibly later today or in the coming days. it is frankly unclear what the kremlin decided to do here. >> richard hawes, we've been talking about what goes into these prisoner swaps. you have experience. you were part of a team that helped get some out of lebanon. tell us about that. >> this was about ten years after the iranian revolution,

george h.w. bush's presidency. if the iranians were able to use their influence to get american hostages released out of lebanon, there would be some sanctions relaxation. we got some people out. the not so good news is they took more hostages. it ended up being a complex negotiation. the iranian foreign minister complained to me, said you americans didn't keep your word. i said, yes, but you don't get credit for releasing hostages when you've taken new ones. it's a reminder there's complex motives that go into this and often multiple players. lebanon and forces there as well as the government of iran. i think what we don't know here is still probably more than we do know, not just about putin's

decision making but all the other players. this has the potential to be something quite complex. >> this could mean next time an american is in russia or nearby, that person could still be in jeopardy. we could have another sad chapter of the same story down the road. >> correct. let me just add one thing to your predicate. it will be a joyous day, i hope, for many americans and many russians, and it probably will be a sad day for other americans as well. you've been talking about paul whelan and evan gershkovich, rightly so. there's also mark fogle.

he's also in prison. i'm glad we're not talking about names, because we don't know details. but my prediction, this is going to be a really joyous day for some families and a really sad day for others. to your point about the future, there are rifts, this is immoral, this is horrible to have to do. i remember when we debated this back in 2010 swapping people and one russian categorically denied he was a spy. i knew him personally from before. yet we made a decision this was our moment to try to get him out and we went for it. when you talk about killers like this guy krasikov that we've been talking about, there's literally not many people worse than hired assassins that killed an innocent opposition person living in georgia. that's about as horrible as it gets. so it's a really hard call. i think it's the right call at

this moment in time. if it happens, i support this swap. at the end of the day, you have to make a trade off under difficult circumstances. i'm not in the camp that thinks, well, now that we've done this prison swap if it goes through, that that creates some kind of reproachment. but sadly history has proven me right in the past. >> we're going to take a short break. when we get back, more from ken dilanian and alexander vindman. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" returns in a moment. where. "morning joe" returns in a moment w. 99 years old and he'd come five days a week if we let him. shape is great, the color's nice, that's a swell lid for you, baby! finding the exact date on ancestry

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russia, the united states, and other nations. let's go back to nbc news chief justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian. ken, with the caveat that we're being careful with what we're reporting, what else are you hearing from the intelligence community on this prisoner swap? >> the only hard information we can report at this hour is what you just said. we are told that a major prisoner swap is underway, involving multiple countries and obviously we know that the focus of american interest, the people trying to get out of russia incoming the "wall street journal," evan gershkovich, and paul whelan, and there are others deports in russia. the russian's top priority, the person they have expressed most interest in getting out of prison is a man who is convicted of essentially a russian sponsored hit in 2019 in a park in berlin, germany. he's in german custody. he's not in american custody.

to the extent that the russians are interested in trying to secure his release, the german government would have to be involved. we know the united states government does not really hold russians convicted of espionage, but does have in prison a number of russians who have been convicted of other crimes including cyber crimes, hacking, fraud, illicit procurement of american technology for the russian war effort, people, again, who have been lawfully convicted by the justice department and sentenced to many years in prison, people that the russians may have interest in releasing and we know this is a really painful thing for the united states government to have to trade people who have been lawfully convicted here in the united states under our system of justice in exchange for americans who are essentially seized as fate sponsored hostages under bogus charges. that's the situation the u.s. government finds itself in as we await further details. >> this is an imbalanced

situation, and it is the kind of thing that the white house has said they're absolutely committed to doing. they wanted to get these americans back home, even if that meant trading people who have been convicted of crimes in this country or other countries against people who are being innocently held inside russia. ken stay with us for any new information we may get from you. joining us now, former national security counsel official retired army lieutenant colonel, alexander vindman. these kind of negotiations are extremely complicated. they're very sensitive, and that's when it is just between the united states and russia, between two countries and as was the case with brittney griner with clear one-for-one or they hoped one-for-two swap in that case. it looks like we're being told from the white house that this swap involves multiple countries. how much more complicated does that make it? >> this is an inordinately complex. the speculation right now, the information that we have right now is up to six countries

involved. this really showcases the biden/harris effectiveness in terms of managing delicate, complex diplomatic negotiations. it's not just about swapping our wrongfully detained personnel for russian criminals involved in extortion, cyber crimes, sanctions invasion, but, in fact, our closest allies also feel really strongly about not giving away hardened criminals, and being able to orchestrate something like this is a real testament to the diplomacy of the biden/harris administration. it should be noted that this is probably not the last time we'll see something of this nature. this was a sweet deal in terms of everybody looking to maximize their wish lists. we obviously came pretty darn close with potentially up to 24 people exchanged. that's a very very complex thing to organize. but it's also going to entice

and really kind of get the russians to continue to engage in this kind of activity to get their intelligence officers. and we should consider criminals as an extension of the intelligence apparatus of russia. these gangsters, cyber criminals have ties into the russian security apparatus, and they will continue -- the russians will continue to take hostages in order to get their folks back out. >> i want to pickup on that because that's something that both richard haass just mentioned. this is going to be a day of extraordinary joy for some families. there will be disappointment for other families. it also comes with the caveat that these kind of prisoner swaps as any kind of negotiations, whether it's with terrorists or opposition countries involves the risk that you perpetuate bad behavior. is there a chance, though, that a deal on this scale with so many countries involved could mitigate against that risk?

could this help dissuade russia potentially from thinking this is a great opportunity for us. we're going to take more americans than we can. >> sadly, the answer is no. we should think about this as completely delinked and highly transactional. the timing suggests of course putin would be happy to deliver a win to his dear friend donald trump in a run-up or post election, but he did this now for a reason. he did it because he got his highly transactional wish list taken care of, and this is one of the hallmarks of the way putin operates. you know, he has his long-term kind of strategic objectives, but he also has capital objectives and he's highly flexible. this is entirely transactional. we should not see this as a kind of breakthrough, and, in fact, we've seen multiple transactions of this nature over the course of years with some of these names being in play for previous prisoner swaps, on the periphery

of those discussions, and they didn't materialize until now, until all of these pieces came together, and a lot of it, again, should be credited to the biden/harris administration and their savvy deal making. this is the art of the deal. >> former national security counsel retired army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, thank you for joining us. richard, this deal is very significant. details will be forthcoming once it's complete, once these americans are on their way to safety, but just talk to us about why this matters so much? >> well, it matters simply because the first responsibility of any government is to protect its citizens, and this sends a message that we will entertain uneven deals in order to go the extra mile to protect american citizens, and that ultimately is the first responsibility of what any government owes its people. that's why it's important. what it's not, this is not the

opening of a new chapter in russian behavior. if anything, the opposite. it will perpetuate bad behavior. it's not opening u.s. russia relations. it's a good thing, but not a breakthrough in any way. >> it underscores the importance of u.s. alliances. we know other nations are involved to make the deal possible for russia. ambassador mcfaul, we give you the final word as to what you're thinking, feeling right now as we are on the verge of what appears to be a significant swap involving russia to bring some americans home? >> so i'm thinking about two things, one, this is a fantastic victory for diplomacy. when you do it or not, that's a decision about policy but then making a deal happen, super hard. i congratulate the diplomats involved. this is a fantastic victory for president biden and his team to make this happen.

number two, if the reports are true, i have four or five friends that will be free. russians. these are fantastic people that went to jail only because they believe in freedom and democracy. i will celebrate with their families later. and number three, tragically, i think there's going to be some people left home, left back in russia, one of them, mark fogel, who i also know personally, a day of sorrow for them. lots of joy for the americans and russians and i want to remember those who haven't been released, russians and americans alike. >> we will certainly keep them in mind. this does appear to be a joyous day for many americans. we will stay on the fast moving developing story on msnbc. that does it for us this morning. my thanks to katty kay, we will see you again tomorrow morning for "morning joe." ana cabrera picks up the coverage. let's get to the breaking news this morning, a prisoner swap between the u.s.,