president harris makes her selection. >> we'll see how it works out. >> "washington post"'s gene robinson, stick around. you'll join us on "morning joe." thank you for getting up with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. better to look at an average of polls, and we don't have a lot of battleground state polls since this all began to shift. look at the national number and you'll get a sense of this. remember, before the first debate with biden and trump, trump was leading by close to three points or above three points. today, trump is leading by 1.2%. 1.2 points. there is an outlier in there. their poll gives him a five-point lead. without that outlier, he is leading by less than 1%, 0.8. in fact, if you look at it, there were five polls in the real clear politics average that occurred before the 25th of july. trump leads in all five of

those. of the five polls that have been held since the 26th of july, he leads in only two. she leads in three. i fully expect the momentum she has will carry her through, unless it is a disastrous vice presidential choice. she'll be in the lead at the end of the democratic convention. >> might seen that choice soon. karl rove on friday preventing kamala harris's momentum will soon give her a solid lead over donald trump in the polls. it appears he is correct, with new polling showing harris is gaining on the former president in battleground states. meanwhile, the vice president is expected to name her running mate before tomorrow's rally in philadelphia. we'll have the latest on the veep stakes. as for the former president, he was in atlanta over the weekend just days after harris held a rally in the same place. during his rally, trump complained about the massive

crowd that turned out for harris, attacking the state's republican governor and congratulating russian president vladimir putin on last week's -- >> well, that's normal. >> -- prisoner swap. wow. >> of course, he also congratulated putin for invaing ukraine, saying it was a brilliant move. >> there's that. >> some people would say it is bizarre. i would agree, too. i would also agree that robert kennedy jr. once again in the news for all the wrong reasons. >> it is really bizarre, this story about robert f. kennedy jr., who is claiming to have dumped a dead bear cub, a baby bear, in central park years ago. was he going to eat it? >> skin it and eat it, something like that. >> then he got rid of it, a baby bear. >> jonathan, i was so confused. i heard he was going to skin it and eat it but ran out of time. i don't know these things. >> why? >> then made it look like -- >> a bike attack? >> -- a biker ran over it.

then "the new york times" story was written by his cousin ten years -- it's all very weird. you know what? in times like these, when little things make sense at all, that's when you want the person right there, sort of as the leveling wind, to be roseanne. roseanne was there going, what in the holy hell are you talking about? >> yeah, it's a political staple. when you're trying to get ahead of a story, you have to involve roseanne. you need to go and say, you're my audience here, roseanne. i will say, there are very few things that bring a nation together. the revolution of rfk jr.'s video reunited us collectively with a what the? >> exactly. >> we'll recap this quickly, as we'll get into it later. >> very good. >> he was hiking. he was upstate new york, found a dead bear.

this is what he says. he decided, oh, i'd like to have this dead bear. i could skin it, eat it. bear meat for a later meal. throws it into his truck. he heads to the city, new york city, for an expensive dinner at a steakhouse. peter lugar's, famed dinner, bear meat still in his car. he realizes he is full. >> he was going to eat the bear cub. >> is it winter? the bear is getting warm in the car. >> he was going to eat the dead bear cub, right? >> yeah. >> he has reservations at peter lugar's. he's full. i guess i'm not eating the dead -- >> keep the bear. >> who among us? >> we've all had that dilemma. you realize, i have the bear meat in the car, but the steak is so good, i should eat this. >> i walked out of the polo bar a couple weeks ago. walked outside, i forget, i got an elk's head in my trunk.

>> yeah. >> i'm like, wait a second, i can't eat that anymore. it happens to all of us. >> i really had road kill in my car but -- >> yeah. >> first of all -- >> what does he do next? >> make a stop at atm. peter lugar's famously cash only. then he has to get a flight. i have to get to the airport, but i've got this bear meat in the car. he says he consults with his dinner companions, what should we do? they hit upon this idea, to drive to central park, dump the bear, dead bear cub there, and stage it as if the bear had been killed by a bicyclist. then that story, ten odd years ago, was a national story. a bunch of outlets covered it, said there is a dead bear at central park. newsworthy. yes, as you mentioned, it was a kennedy family relative,

unbeknownst to her, who had the story for "the new york times" the next day. "the new yorker" was about to drop a profile of robert jr. he tried to get out ahead of it with the help of roseanne barr. there it is. >> okay. >> so we have dead baby cubs, bear cubs. >> in his car. >> brain worms. >> warming up. >> yeah. ready to go here. >> pick up road kill. >> roasted and ready to go. >> my mother taught me that you make sure it is freshly killed, skill warm, and you get it right to cut it up and freeze it. >> yeah. >> you don't leave it in your car to smell and get grosser, but this is sick. >> former aide to the bush department, no road kill there. associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. >> i have to talk about the

bear. >> yeah, okay. >> gene, go ahead. we'll bare with it. >> there it is. >> this man was like 60 years old when this happened, not a youthful discretion. >> that'srecently did this. it was bear road skill, yes. that's all i got. >> new york city. >> i'm just to just say, i wrote about this when, actually, this happened in my family. my parents are refugees from world war ii. >> not quite this way. >> starved for two years. it was a deer. so i'm really concerned about someone picking up a baby bear and thinking about skinning it, then faking its death in central park. there is a big difference. >> yeah. >> it's not even about eating road kill. >> congratulations on trying to make the story about you, dear. >> no, i'm just saying, so people know. >> in mika's book, there was actually a deer that had been struck and killed on the side of the road, old dominion road.

>> old dominion. >> mrs. brzezinski got the best part. >> thank you for remembering that. >> let's bring in partner and chief analyst with puck, john heilemann. how does the bear impact the northern swing states? >> oh, baby. >> oh, wow. >> the guy had a worm in his brain, right, before this? >> yeah. >> isn't that right? >> there's that. >> yeah. >> there has been a thing where he sexually harassed a babysitter, right? >> it was not apologetic at all. >> and said afterwards that there might be more of those. now, we've got this bear story. i think on the scale of the weirdness, this is -- i mean, as weird as it is, it doesn't really rate compared to the weirdness of the worm in his brain and in terms of

disqualifyingness, the rate compared to the sexual harassment claim. also, i'll note, joe, that this man, robert f. kennedy jr., according to the cbs/ugov poll, bobby kennedy jr. at 2% nationally now. >> going up. >> we have to move on. >> looking forward to the day where we don't talk about the -- i mean, the man, his political significance is dwindling fast and hopefully we won't have to talk about him anymore soon. >> interestingly enough, that's good news for donald trump. it seems that in the most recent polls, he's taking straight from donald trump. >> well, vice president kamala harris -- >> would have seen that coming, the weirdness. by the way, everybody is saying weird, weird, we have this weird thing. we've been talking about weirdos, insurrectionists, and freaks for years. democrats are like, i am so shocked.

i don't -- eh. i said, call them what they are. weirdos, insurrectionists and freaks, like the extremists. >> vice president -- >> not you good people out there. >> -- and donald trump are essentially tied according to the latest poll from cbs news and yougov. in the survey, harris's support is 50% compared to donald trump, 49%. among likely black voters, the poll shows harris leading trump by 63 points, 81% to 18%. that's lower than 87% of black voters who voted for the biden/harris ticket in 2020 but an eight-point increase from biden's numbers in the last poll conducted before he ended his campaign. >> most definitely going in the right direction. >> among young voters, harris's lead over trump is similar to the one biden held in his last poll. according to the survey, harris leads trump by 26 points among 18 to 39-year-olds, after biden

led by 22 points last month. in 2020, exit polls show biden beat trump by 24 points among that same group. cbs news is also out with its first battleground states estimates of the 2024 election cycle, which are gathered based on past polling, historical data, and past trends. according to the tracking, trump and harris are deadlocked in arizona, michigan, pennsylvania. trump holds leads within the margin of error in georgia, north carolina, and wisconsin, while harris leads within the margin of error in nevada. wow. >> you know, not really surprising here, john heilemann. obviously, surprising if you look at all the polls how most of them, the most recent polls have all -- we've had a bit of a reversal. you heard karl rove coming in, talking about the momentum seems to be on her side. it does seem to be on her side right now and the democrats's side. she's pulled ahead by one, two

points in most polls, meaning it's tied. you look at the swing states, it means it's tied. what i find fascinating and completely predictable is the fact that joe biden was having his biggest problems, and we've said it on the show forever, that joe biden would have to bring home younger voters. he'd have to bring home people of color. that's what kamala harris appears to be doing here. she's springing home people of color. she's bringing home younger voters in the democratic party. and the big question on who is going to be the next president of the united states is whether she can perform almost as well as joe biden did among older, working class, white voters in wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania. that's the $64,000 question, isn't it? >> well, it is. i'd broaden the $64,000 question, joe, to ask the question, whether she could perform as well as joe biden did in 2020 with young voters, african-american voters, and

latino voters. because although she has -- there's undeniably -- the momentum is with her right now. she is performing better than biden was prior to his decision to bow out and actually better than he was throughout the whole of the last couple years with all those groups. her number, though -- his number was way down from where his numbers were with those groups in 2020. she has made up -- she's overperforming him in 2023/'24, but she's still not up to the levels he was at in 2020 with any of those groups. that is one of the things that she has to do. there's reasons to think if this momentum continues with all those voter segments, that she can do that. the numbers are all going in the right direction, but she's still not there. you know, if you look at even when this -- i'm trying to look at what the number here is on -- with african-americans as an example. she has right now 81, 81% to 18%

over trump. biden had 90% of the black vote in 2020. i'll just say that there's no one on the harris campaign that doesn't realize that those are categories where they need to ride the momentum, the rise she's had, and try to get her back to joe biden's level of 2020 if she's going to be able to win the election in november. >> gene robinson, the poll also has this tidbit about black voters. july 18th, those surveyed, 58% said they'd definitely vote. the number jumps to 74% now. that is significant. the trump team tried to make inroads with those communities. his numbers have dwindled, a priority of the harris campaign. it seems like the map is expanding. by the final days of the biden campaign, he seemed to only have one path to victory, the pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan route. for harris, she's got options. >> she's got options. you know, this just in, she is

going to match biden's numbers among african-american voters. i mean, i am sure of that. and yeah, she expands the map. what about georgia, north carolina? what kinds of vote margins can she get out of philadelphia and pittsburgh in pennsylvania, milwaukee in wisconsin, detroit in michigan? i think these are significant ga gains that she has made, even if you just look at african-american voters, and she's been a candidate for all of two weeks, right? let it sink in, at least another few weeks. it's clear what direction she's headed. >> donald trump has always been obsessed with crowd sizes. obviously, his first day as president of the united states was embarrassing for everybody involved in the white house

because he was so obsessed with the sparse crowd. >> forced people to lie about it. >> right. but you saw that still play out again in georgia, and it played out with kamala harris's rally. >> yeah. >> in atlanta, it was pretty massive. donald trump upset by the fact, i think, that it was larger, that hers was larger than his. also, that people started to leave. ap reporting a steady stream of people left during his 91-minute speech. crowd sizes don't win elections, buts the something, obviously, that's gotten in donald trump's head. >> yeah, it shows excitement. donald trump was in atlanta saturday, as joe mentioned, the same building where vice president kamala harris held a rally just four days earlier. before trump even arrived at the georgia state university convocation center, he was tempering expectations for the size of his crowd.

writing on social media, that harris only filled the building because she had entertainers perform at her rally. but the "associated press"voted that was not the case. in the 25 minutes trump spoke, he lost supporters across his 91-minute speech. yet, trump frequently returned to the topic of crowd size, suggesting that school administrators conspired with the harris campaign to keep his supporters outside the arena. >> crazy kamala, ultra left, you know that. she was here weeks ago, lots of empty seats. the crowd she got is because she had entertainers. the school administration stopped us from getting another 500, 600, even 1,000 people in. thousands of people were told no. i'm not happy about it. if they're going to stand in the

way of admitting people to our rally, just imagine what they're going to do on election day. got thousands of people, they won't let them in. harris presidency. you know why? they don't want to show we're successful. that's all it is. they don't want to show. she has to get entertainers. they start leaving as soon as she opens her mouth. by the way, the entertainer couldn't fill the place either. even with the help of the school. the school is trying to get students, please go. this is embarrassing to us. please go. >> this is one of these things where you ask, are you going to believe me or your lying eyes? the fact is, the harris rally was packed. there was a lot of excitement. there was more excitement than we've seen at a democratic rally in a very long time. certainly reminded a lot of reporters there of barack obama in 2008. again, excitement that a lot of people have been saying has been bottled up for quite some time for democrats. they're out there now.

elise, i've always told people running for office that campaigns are about the future, they're not about the past. i could add to that, they're not about crowd sizes. they're not about grudges, resentments, all the things that fuel donald trump's campaign. people say, well, he won. yeah, he won in '16. i'm not going to go through the litany of years trump republicans lost. 2017 all the way through 2023. it's because it's always resentment. it's always crowd sizes. it's always who he is going to, you know -- who is treasonous. it is praising vladimir putin. it is these really weird things. weirdos, insurrectionists, and freaks, far out there, pushing a lot of the crazy stuff. it's just -- again, that's not where middle america is. >> if donald trump stays out there and keeps bringing negative attention on himself,

not any of these legal problems, just by what he did at the atlanta rally, you know, talking badly about popular gop governor, that was a great move in a state you need to win. you can just see, donald trump is responding to the enthusiasm surrounding kamala harris's campaign. enthusiasm comes first, then the uptick in the polling which we're starting to see, and then it is going to be the ballot. donald trump is responding to a chain of events probably starting to feel a little out of control as he is groping around, getting nastier, angrier, and losing all sense of discipline, every modicum he'd summoned for a week-long period. that's clearly gone, evaporated, and he's back to old donald trump. >> the new nixon. >> old being the key word. >> the new nix within you now for the next 24 hours.

you know, jonathan lemire, at the georgia rally, we're really burying the lead. donald trump has been a scourge, a scourge to georgia republicans. they've said as much. he was responsible for their loss in the 2020 senate race, which, of course, kept republicans from being the majority party in the united states senate. he was responsible for the senate candidates's loss in 2022, which also helped democrats control the senate again. he goes in in 2024, georgia, a swing state again. what does he do? he is raging behind the scenes according to my sources inside the campaign. so what does he do? he does the exact thing that his campaign staff, that members of the georgia gop would not want

him to do. he picks a fight with an extraordinarily popular republican governor. i will say, also, yes, a secretary of state in georgia, trying to rig the election. then went to the polls the next fall with donald trump trying to defeat him and what happened? he won in a landslide victory in the primary. instead of doing what would have been good for donald trump and republicans, and either making peace with brian kemp and brad raffensperger, or at least not saying anything, this is what donald trump did at a critical moment in this campaign. >> your governor, kemp, and raffensperger are doing everything possible to make 2024 difficult for republicans to win. what are they doing? i don't know. they have something in mind, you

know. they have a little something in mind. kemp is very bad for the republican party. under these kinds of woke, radical left policies, atlanta is like a killing field, and your governor ought to get off his [ bleep ] and do something about it. he's a bad guy, a disloyal guy, and an average governor. little governor, little brian kemp, bad guy. think of it. just think, and then that's it. i got this guy nominated, then got him elected. without me, he doesn't get nominated and doesn't get elected. he's a bad guy, and he's not doing this country a good service. people are looking at georgia, all the other things, saying, what the hell is going on in georgia? what the hell is going on? the radical left democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020. we're not going to let them rig the presidential election in 2024.

>> the new trump. >> wow, he's getting ready for a fight. >> the thing is, jonathan, in so many ways, this is so bad for him. it's so bad for his campaign. i'll just underline to everybody again, when i talk about what brian kemp has done, he not only won easily in the general election, he won a landslide in the gop primary. republicans like him there. donald trump's biggest problem was that a lot of republicans stayed home in the northern suburbs of atlanta. republicans in the northern suburbs of atlanta love brian kemp. republicans that donald trump needs the most love brian kemp. and he used the rally in atlanta trashing their governor. again, there is nothing logical about it. there is nothing rational about it.

there is nothing sane about it. so the question nor republic fo inside and outside the campaign is what is wrong with donald trump? >> georgia arrived as a swing state ahead of schedule in 2020 because of trump's poor performance in office. then, of course, no one anticipated democrats would get both senate seats, but trump, while fighting the big lie, you know, refused to go down and campaign. the one he had was a screed against voters. it turned off, affecting the upper chamber. the talk of the disciplined, professional trump campaign, that's gone, out the window. the candidate is making decisions much to the consternation to those around him, and he's rattled. we always say this here. if you want to know how donald trump feels, look at truth social in the middle of the night. it's been screed after screed since harris ascended to the top of the ticket.

the trump campaign has no answer yet, how to respond to her. he's rattled by the crowd size, obviously. they both filled that arena, but harris could do it. biden, that was something he couldn't do. now, trump thinks it was a huge advantage, a blow to his ego. that's now gone. it can't be said enough, brian kemp is really popular in georgia. with harris at the top of the ticket and trump reigniting this feud with kemp, couple republicans said to me over the weekend, georgia is very much in play right now. they feel like it could slip away from republicans. >> hey, joe? >> yeah, john, you do have donald trump raging right now out of control. you have the campaign manager posting pictures of tony soprano flipping the bird. >> nice. >> which, again, gives you a nice look into the state of mind. and i suspect a meltdown will continue even more if kamala harris selects josh shapiro, as

many believe she's going to do, because that is the one vice presidential pick the trump campaign fears the most. it really moves pennsylvania, the most important state, leaning sort of in harris's direction. >> first, you know how popular brian kemp is? any idea of kemp's approval rating in georgia? >> no. >> 63%. now, 63% is a high approval rating. if you're going to attack somebody, you know, it just boggles the mind. >> look at him. >> 63% approval rating, brian kemp. you know, that's basically all the republicans in georgia and a decent chunk of the democrats in georgia who like brian kemp, yet donald trump thinks that's the right way to try to win the state of georgia. now, to get to your second point, joe, this is why this matters so much.

the trump campaign, back when they were riding high, used to talk about -- i'm talking about the convention time -- used to talk about all the paths to 270 votes. we'll get 320 electoral votes, maybe 350. they had all these paths. but what they also would say, tony fabrizio, trump's pollster, sat in a small room with a few people in milwaukee, including me, and said, we have all these paths to 270, but here's the easiest path we have. i raise this because it goes right to your question. the easiest path we have to 270, and this is what it'll come down to, i think, for them, is we hold all the states that we won in 2020 and we win georgia and pennsylvania. we don't have to win arizona. we don't have to win nevada. we don't have to win wisconsin. we don't have to win michigan. if we win the states we had in 2020 plus georgia and

pennsylvania. >> right. >> look at trump's ad spending right now and what they've paugt bought the next couple months. the biggest states, pennsylvania and georgia. so here we are. donald trump attacking brian kemp in georgia and worried a lot, as you just piro being the mate in pennsylvania. that's the ball game for them. that's their easiest way. maybe as much as the blue wall states were joe biden's only way to 270, this may be the central way and maybe the only way for donald trump to get to 270. these are not -- it's not going well if those are the two states trump needs to win. >> mika, the problem is, you can spend as much money as you want to in georgia. you trash an extraordinarily popular governor with a 63% approval rating and republicans probably approval rating in the 90s, right? you do that, then you're going to get blasted with media.

it'll be negative. the "atlanta journal constitution," day in, day out, will be showing how the feud is playing out. that's something that, again, just has the very real possibility of cratering support in the suburbs of atlanta. >> there's just also strong contrast in terms of optics, where donald trump seems angry and bellowing. >> right. >> now, the other side just seems hopeful and happy. >> right. >> that matters. still ahead on "morning joe," former president trump congratulates vladimir putin for another great deal after last week's historic prisoner swap conducted by u.s. president joe biden. richard haass joins us with his take on those weird comments. plus, donald trump is backing out of an upcoming debate against kamala harris, and he is proposing a new one on his own terms instead, with a big audience.

>> yeah, he needs safe space. he needs his own safe smas. >> you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. in 90s now i sleep with inspire. inspire? no mask? no hose? just sleep. learn more, and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com (vo) kate made progress with her mental health, but her medication caused unintentional movements in her face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td. so her doctor prescribed austedo xr— a once-daily, extended-release td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds— (kate) aww! hi buddy! (vo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine.

austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ ask your doctor for austedo xr. ♪ austedo xr ♪ this is our future, ma. godaddy airo. creates a logo, website, even social posts... in minutes! -how? -a.i. (impressed) ay i like it! who wants to come see the future?! get your business online in minutes with godaddy airo time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. the death penalty is back on the table for khaled sheik mohamed, accused of plotting 9/11, and his defendants, as well, after

lloyd austin withdrew the plea deals. the chief has direct oversight of the case. we'll keep you posted. violence erupted across britain over the weekend, fueled by misinformation about a mass stabbing suspect who killed three children last week. far-right and anti-immigrant demonstrators took over the streets in several cities after false rumors spread online that the person who committed the crime was in the country illegally. several officers were injured in the fighting. a new tool could help teachers stop students from using artificial intelligence to cheat. the technology exists but openai hasn't released it. the company says it is concerned that the program, which has existed for years, would disproportionally affect non-native speakers. the tool is set to be 99% effective. it was another huge weekend at the box office for "deadpool

and wolverine," which took in over $28 million on friday alone. the marvel blockbuster could soon top $1 billion worldwide. disney has become the first studio to cross the $3 billion mark in global ticket sales. >> the dude on the right looks like t.j. >> a little bit, the same muscles. >> yeah. let's turn to hurricane debby slamming the coast. catastrophic flooding and heavy rainfall this weekend. winds are at 80 miles per hour. >> you know who else he looks like? >> who? >> our friend and meteorologist bill karins. >> good he is in with the storm. let's turn to bill karins right now. >> very good to see you. >> good to see ya. >> you and i have been doing this now well over 20 years. i mean, talk about what we're looking at in my home state. >> so, joe, a category 1 does not typically scare floridians.

they're built for that. but this storm is different. this is a stalled out storm over the next week, and that scares everyone, especially the coastal plain of south carolina, georgia, savannah and charleston. the pictures i'm fearful you'll see in the days ahead. let me explain it first. this is naples, the coast of florida. seas are rough today. we're waiting for the official landfall from the national hurricane center. we're lucky this is making landfall or it'd get stronger than this. now that it is crossing over the coast here, it should begin to weaken in the next couple hours. it was at the peak intensity probably throughout its entire life. the wind is not the issue. power outages won't be the issue. 80-mile-per-hour winds, moving at 10. the forward speed is going to come to a crawl. this is going to stall out. a stalled out tropical cyclone takes the moisture from the ocean and dumps it on land. this is the eye. within the next couple minutes, we'll get the official landfall.

by the time we get to wednesday, we're just off the coast of savannah. by thursday, friday, we're still in the carolinas. a storm that will sit this long, even if it is weak, only a tropical storm, still has a ton of rain with it. if it dumps in the same locations, we're talking about maybe historic rainfall totals in some areas. the spaghetti lines, after about three days, we don't know where this is going to go. it'll drift. it could sneak up to the northeast and new york city, or it may sit down here over areas of north florida. within the next three days, carolinas, georgia, we're very concerned for you. the rainfall totals, this is 10 to 20 inches of rain. if you follow charleston on a rainy afternoon in a thunderstorm, they get bad flooding. you're talking the potential for up to 30 inches of rain. 2.5 feet in some areas isolated. wherever that happens, we'll get extreme river flooding, houses underwater, towns underwater, roads washed out, that sort of thing. that's why what we call a high

risk of flash flooding. like if there was a high risk of tornadoes coming, this means catastrophic, life-threatening flooding for north florida through the ccarolinas. we're getting surge and wind damage, but the rain is fearful. could be another florence, what we saw in the houston area. just because it is a category 1 not only describes the wind. for the rainfall, this would be a category 4 or 5 rainfall forecast. it is that serious. >> we'll be closely following this. bill karins, thank you very much for being with us this morning. we'll see you soon. back to politics. in that atlanta rally that we discussed last block, former president donald trump again weighed in on last week's multinational prisoner swap that resulted in russia releasing four wrongly imprisoned u.s. residents. this time, trump congratulated vladimir putin on the deal.

>> you know, by the way, i'd like to congratulate vladimir putin for having made yet another great deal. did you see the deal we made? look, we want to get people in. we have 59 hostages, i never paid anything. >> what do you even call that when you're congratulating vladimir putin? >> hard to say. let's bring in the president emeritus of foreign relations. he's always praising president putin, president xi, the worst dictators, the most blood-thirsty dictators on the face of the earth. he called vladimir putin brilliant when he invaded ukraine. we could say all that, but we could also talkut the bad deals donald trump made when he was president of the united states. actually, talking about bringing the taliban to camp david on the anniversary of the september

11th attack. i'm going to throw this to you. you can either talk about that, or you can talk about how joe biden was able to do something diplomatically that donald trump could never do. that is actually lean on years of friendships and make people do things -- you know, i was told power was making people do things politically that they didn't want to do, that they wouldn't naturally do. that's exactly what joe biden did, but he didn't do it by bending arms. he did it by having great relationships with world leaders. >> skills. >> that donald trump would never have unless they're autocrats. >> couple of things, joe. you know, some ways, it is 2016 redux, the support for putin and other dictators. nothing new there, just head shaking. what the deal we negotiated, the biden approach to the other

leaders, it reminded me of the 41st president. people used to make fun of george herbert walker bush when he'd do telephone diplomacy. he'd call people not when he needed them but to check in. he'd bank goodwill. when there was a crisis, say when iraq invaded kuwait, he had a lot of capital to draw on. in some ways, that's what diplomacy is. you bank it. when you need it, it's there. i think the biden administration deserves credit. the deals are always awkward. you had a trade for spies and murderers. okay. that's, in some ways, who we are. we support our own people, support american citizens. i get the complexities of these deals. nobody feels 100% comfortable, but who feels comfortable to leave the innocent americans to rot in a russian jail? >> right. these are -- >> the president did the right thing. i think what we're also seeing from donald trump is a total inability to ever say anything

supportive, gracious, whatever word you want to use, about another human being, particularly on the other side of the political aisle. even his own side of the political aisle, he is incapable of putting anybody or the country before his own sense of his place. this is about that. >> yeah. >> you know, by the way, other presidents in the past have been gracious enough. bill clinton used to always throw us off when a reporter would say, what to you think about the republicans's plans to do such and such? he'd go, well, i agree with it. it'd a great idea. you're like, what? you're not supposed to say that. he'd take that issue away from us. say, i really want to talk about -- and then he'd go to -- so any good lawyer gives up points, any good politician gives up points that you don't need to fight. >> this incredible homecoming was part of a really difficult, intricate, complicated, multinational deal. >> it was part of an

extraordinarily complicated deal, that you're exactly right, very few presidents, thinking of george h.w. bush, like you said, and joe biden being able to pull this off. a lot of other people wouldn't. i will say, you know, it is somewhat ironic that the same publication that said joe biden was an old, dottering man, incapable of doing his job, incapable of negotiating, that's the guy that brought evan home after all these years. and they know. they know. they understand that joe biden making calls to foreign leaders an hour before he's going to get out of the race, going to the chancellor of germany, who knows this is going to be extraordinarily unpopular, using -- just like george h.w.

bush did in the lead up to the first gulf war, using all of these years of diplomatic skills to make this come together. this supposedly old, doddering president, was able to do something that very few presidents in our lifetime would have been able to do, richard. >> absolutely. also, joe, you can often get deals, and you have to ask whether it's worth it. donald trump got a deal in afghanistan. what he did, he sold america's partner, the afghan government down the river. he went behind their back and negotiated a deal to bring the taliban back in power. okay. he got the deal. if you want to say that makes him a successful foreign policy president, you know, over to you. but, you know, there's deals and there's deals. so there, the trump administration, again, really pulled the rug out from under a longstanding, american ally, a flawed one, i get it. couldn't win the war. but it was holding its own. u.s. combat deaths essentially

dialed down to one a month. we had reached some stability there. again, we forged a deal that raised real questions about, over time, american reliability. here again, i'm not going to say that i was 100% comfortable with this deal, but that was the only deal we could get. sometimes you have to ask yourself, are you better off with an imperfect deal than with none? president biden, vice president harris, jake sullivan and the others made the difficult but right choice. >> richard, it's the 11 months since the horrible attacks in israel. regional war seems to be moving closer and closer and closer. you have u.s. officials preticketing that there could be a big attack in israel today from iran and hezbollah. how close are we? are we just on the cusp of a full-fledged regional war? >> well, we're on the cusp of something. the iranian government was

humiliated. let's put it bluntly. it was humiliated. in their own guest house, inauguration of the new president. one of their main partners was assassinated, was clearly an inside job and so forth. they have to retaliate. but then there is retaliation and retaliation. nobody knows exactly what they're going to do. when they retaliated in april, after the last israeli assassination that killed a leader in syria, they sent over 300 drones and rockets into israel. it's amazing that none of them killed any israelis. if this time they do something similar and several -- one or more israelis are killed, the israelis will respond. the question is, can you manage that? the israeli/hezbollah exchange has never faded. israel is still active in gaza. i would just simply say, it's not clear to me what is in this for israel. it's stretched on multiple fronts. it's got a reservist force that can't sustain this. i don't understand why the

israelis won't wind down what's going on in gaza. they've basically run out of military targets. they're still fighting a conventional war against an unconventional foe. it doesn't make any sense to me. if i were israel, i'd try to freeze gaza right now. i would try to avoid a war if i could with hezbollah. see what you can do diplomatically to get the two sides to pull back. iran is going to do what it is going to do, now that the israelis did the unwise assassination of the guy who was trying to negotiate for hamas. but israel does not want to fight a four or five-front war against the houthis, against iran, against hamas, against lebanon and hezbollah, and against these radical groups in the west bank. that is not a recipe that is good for the state of israel. israel has to decide what its priorities are, what it can live with, and what it can't. the problem is it's handed the initiative to the other side, so we'll see what iran does.

then israel has to make some fateful choices. >> president emeritus on the council of foreign relations, richard haass, thank you very much for being on this morning. coming up, the latest from the summer games, as team usa looks to rake in more gold. willie joins us next from paris to break down the events to watch for today. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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a beautiful shot of paris. 12:50 in the afternoon there. 6:50 here. let's get a check on the olympic games. team usa today will took to build off spectacular performances from yesterday. we'll start on the track and incredible photo finish in the men's 100 meter dash. possibly the closest finish ever in the event. noah lyles won his first olympic gold medal, crossing the finish line just 0.005 of a second ahead of the second place jamaican runner. that wasn't clear for several moments after the race, as officials reviewed the finish. incredible. lyles's tell me mate, fred

curley claimed the bronze, his second medal. then to the pool, where bobby finke had an electric swim in the 1500 meter freestyle, breaking the world record and defending his gold that he won in tokyo. with the victory, finke became the lone individual swimming medalist for the men in paris. and team usa went out on top. smith, king, gretchen walsh, and torri huske broke the world record en route to winning the 4x100 meter relay. the win clinched the wins in the pool. and suni lee won bronze in the uneven bars yesterday, her

sixth, tying her for the third most by a female american gymnast. lee has a chance to get another one today in the balance beam final. and the biggest surprise of the day came in the women's cyclist road race. american faulkner won gold, breaking free from the pack in the last 3 clock terkilometers. she's the first american woman to win since 1984. the world's number one ranked golfer has a gold medal on his resume. scottie scheffler knocked down birdie after birdie yesterday to finish with an incredible final round score of 62. overall, team usa remains atop the total medal count with a dominant lead now over china, but china has just pulled ahead this morning in the gold medal race. joe and mika, it has been a spectacular olympics so far, and the race for the gold coming down to the wire.

>> i mean, poor scottie, after winning the gold medal, french police dragged him to jail for trying to steal a loaf of bread. >> come on. >> very, very sad. >> ripping their pants. >> let's bring in right now -- >> are you trying to think of a segue? >> i'm not. bring in willie geist. i have 12 segues. >> he looks so french. >> he does, exactly. trying to figure out whether i talk about when willie and i won gold in synchronized swimming for u.s., which swelled my heart with pride for this country and also the teamwork we showed, or if i could talk about how, you know, i was off the twitter machine. i was off the google machine for quite some time. i tuned back in to find out right-wingers hated the olympics now. >> why do they hate it? >> well, they said, like, there was some festivus greek god

thing they were angry about, said it was jesus. >> okay. >> then they said this boxer, woman boxer was a dude, but ended up -- >> that's not right. >> -- wasn't a dude. it's like jesus, greek god, dude, woman, it's all so confusing to us. willie is going to sort through all of us for us and tell us how things are going. >> good morning, guys. good afternoon from paris. it's been a long time. i'm very happy to see you. i'm standing, i wish you could see where i am, a tiny sliver of a balcony that looks like the place two people would come out for cigarettes after a night of romance in paris. >> love it. >> just dangling over the edge with the arc de triomphe behind me. perfectly parisian. lemire gave some of the highlights, but noah lyles, that 100 meter win, the first for an american, by the way, men, since 2004, an event we used to own with carl lewis, michael johnson, everybody remembers

that. came down to 0.005, five-thousandths of a second. he was running 27 miles an hour at his peak and did not lead the race until his nose crossed that finish line in the photo finish. >> wow. >> so close, in fact, he congratulated the jamaican, his rival, thompson, after the race, said, i think you got me there. the photo showed otherwise. incredible race. also, i loved yesterday seeing novak djokovic in tennis and scottie scheffler in golf. these are two of the best professional athletes to ever play their sports. they've got everything they could want in the world in terms of fame, money, success on the professional level. yet, novak djokovic said this was the one he wanted more than any other. this gold medal. at 37 years old, he got it. he owns the golden slam. only five people in the history of tennis have done it, which means he won all the grand slam tournaments plus a gold medal. djokovic now is in that group. and for scottie scheffler, he shot a preposterous 62

yesterday, including a 29 on the back nine to win the gold medal. to show you what this means to these guys, you saw him on the medal stand wiping the tears away as the national anthem played. very cool there. looking ahead to today, simone biles competing two more times today, the end of her olympic games. she's on the beam and on the floor in those individual competitions with a shot to add to her three gold medals already. she's dominated these olympics in the gym. and, guys, over the last couple weeks, i've been giving our viewers here a look at some of the venues. incredible, beach volleyball in the shadow of the eiffel tower. incredible to have fencing under the glass ceiling of the grand palais. and i had to go out yesterday and see equestrian at versailles. >> stop. >> it takes you back a couple hundred years. >> oh, my gosh. >> these beautiful animals. yesterday was kind of horse dancing.

you know, you watch it, and they're kind of dancing around a little, precisely, beautifully, to pick your music. some were going with '80s hits. it was interesting. my gosh, i don't know how anywhere ever again could replicate the venues that paris has, using these existing landmarks to host an olympic games. it's been incredible, guys. >> well, i mean, it is absolutely extraordinary. again, where willie is right now, i love that description of the place where he was. >> yeah. >> romantic. >> shows the relative popularity of willie and i in our past lives. i'd report back, this is the place you'd walk out, sigh, and go, uh, i'm so lonely. but that's the difference between willie and me, and that's why there is variety in the show. willie, you talk about what's going on there and all the incredible locations. you know, at the beginning of every olympics, i think this is

going to be the last olympics, right? we're so splintered. people are not going to -- the last sort of global event, and it ends up this paris olympics is one of the most successful. certainly you talk to nbc executives and the people, the uncle billies in the back counting the receipts from the bailey banking and loan. they will tell you, this has been an extraordinary successfully olympics, and people are really, really tuned in. why do you think that is? what are some of the main story lines that have made this olympics one of the most successful olympics ever? >> it helps when team usa is doing well, when you have superstars like katie ledecky, simone biles, the dream team doing so well. >> absolutely. >> honestly, i think it is this city, this location. it is just the beauty. even if you're not a sports fan, to watch these events carried out at these places you're so familiar with, and to be a part of this city. then the other thing, joe, is that the last two olympics were played, obviously, tokyo was

right in the middle of covid. no fans. i think the athletes here have been telling me that this has been a relief, to be here and be with each other and experience the city a little bit, not to go from your event back to your room in isolation. beijing also, remember, had no speculators. that excitement and the energy wasn't there. so you take that, kind of a down time for the olympics the last few years, to come back here in the summertime, in this city, and to have our team doing so well. put all those together, great story lines, viral stars, the pommel horse guy that america has fallen in love with. there's just so much going on, and it continues this week. simone biles today. we've got a lot more ahead in sprinting and track and field and basketball coming down the pike, as well. an opportunity for a bunch more golds for the u.s. here. >> and, finally, let's talk about the superstars who were superstars independent of the olympics. you talk about the men's basketball team. you talked about scottie scheffler. you talk about djokovic.

here are guys that are, most of them, wealthy. they have all the fame, all the celebrity they will ever need. yet, you saw scottie scheffler breaking down after his victory in a way he never does. djokovic yesterday. it was remarkable. >> incredible. >> what a tennis match that was. but djokovic falling to the ground and shaking. you know, they isoed on his thumb shaking, because he was sobbing so much. this is a hard customer. he's not like one of those warm and fuzzy serbs that you hear about. this is a tough guy. yet, the olympics have this magic that make even the mightiest break down and weep because it means so much to them. >> yeah, and i think for djokovic, this felt like a capstone to his historic career. believed to be the greatest player on the men's side of all time, won 24 grand slams.

he was outspoken this week and leading up to the olympics, i want the gold medal. something will feel incomplete if i don't win a gold medal. he did. he won it. you saw, like you said, these guys are rich and famous. they're the best at what they do. but collapsing to the ground and convuling because he was just so happy and so relieved and running up into the stands, finding his family. you could see how much it meant to him. even, i'll say, these dream team guys, lebron and k.d., steph, they want this very bad. at the same time, what's beautiful about the olympics is, those guys are going out and cheering on other lower-profile sports. you had beach volleyball a couple nights ago. lebron was there going crazy. there was a big rain delay, a bunch of the crowd left. he stayed. by the end of the match, lebron is up top yelling down to the volleyball players, and they're pointing up to him. you had anthony edwards from the basketball team who has become a huge table tennis fan, so he's showing up at the american table tennis events. it's that kind of camaraderie, that patriotism, that genuine

feel of this being something really special and maybe once in a lifetime for a lot of them that's contributing to the success and interest in these games. >> all right. thank you so much, willie geist. 1996, gold winner in synchronized swimming. go back to that. thank you so much for being with us, willie. can't wait to talk to you tomorrow. >> thanks, guys. joe and i were stripped of the medals in atlanta. we can talk about that another day. i take issue with my test results. >> yeah, same here. same here. >> gosh, okay. >> very good to see you, willie. >> oh, my gosh. >> you know what makes me break down and weep. >> what's that? >> what achievement that i did professionally that makes me fall to the ground and i start shaking. when pablo torre comes on our show and makes me so happy. >> i was -- joining us now -- >> i have made it now. pablo is here. >> host of pablo torre finds out on meadowlark media.

>> you go ahead. >> i'm enjoying my post coital cigarette zone, watching willie geist with the arc de triomphe, curl in his hair. >> no coitus going on. >> i wasn't specific, just that it was post. >> let's talk about sports. >> wow, that just -- >> out of nowhere. pablo is out of control. >> well, it was just -- >> feeling european today. [ laughter ] >> with willie's wave in his hair, we're all feeling a wee bit european. >> precisely. >> look at this from 30,000 feet. you look at different olympic games, and there are certain things that stand out. talk about, as willie and i were discussing, how these paris olympics have really, really caught america's attention. >> there is a lower expectation

level, i think, when it was the beginning of this thing. you thought it'd be consumed by culture war. we've certainly seen parts of it, joe. >> right. >> but there is something to the perspective of all of america enjoying what i have seen deemed as sports topis. it's like there is a hot plate sizzling with beach volleyball over there. hey, there's the most famous athlete in the world in lebron james caring about this thing, holding an american flag like he is george washington crossing the delaware. by the way, there's the fastest man in the world, noah lyles, using his torso to win a race no one won in two decades. all of it is a remarkable thing when it comes to the lack of monoculture we otherwise enjoy in america. we talk about monoculture all the time when we talk about why the nfl is so enormous. this quadrennial event, post pandemic, as willie said, and i don't say this because i'm on this channel working currently in this way for this company, but streaming has been an

enormous part of this. when i get up in the morning and i turn this on on peacock, again, all the caveats for corporate conflict of interest included, it's the best. i'm just ambiently watching eight different things, and i think that technological advantage is actually quite different from any olympics we've had before. it's all of these things, all of the soap opera,technology, at a time we want to watch something beyond the age-old hobby horses that happen to come out of a certain precinct of our politics. >> wow. >> you know, the thing is -- >> pablo came to play. >> the pommel horse. >> that was profound. >> this is a media moment, though, that we ought to talk about. again, i think all of us are fortunate, who get paid by nbc are fortunate that this has happened now. we'll credit the genius of the people that put this all together.

but this is really -- streaming, this really is one of the moments that people will look back in the media who were figuring out, how do you go from old linear to streaming and haven't been able to make the lines go. linear going down. streaming not going up fast enough. this is one of those moments where they meet. whether you're talking about peacock and nbc universal, or you're talking about somebody else doing it two, four years from now, this is -- and now we're talking about a media story. that time has come. i've walked into two, three different places where people aren't on nbc. they're on peacock, and they're doing exactly what you were talking about. >> yeah. joe, think about how we're fed things all the time. it is via algorithm. they're trying to give us what we saw we want, what we say we've watched already. the glory of the olympics is we have not watched any of this. we generally have no idea what we're about to see. these characters are -- i love

when willie mentioned the pommel horse guy. the pommel horse guy became an overnight celebrity. steven the pommel horse guy has never been on my social media, but he is there now. heilemann is right here, and i'll be self-conscience talking about storytelling and magazine journalism. once upon a time, you could say, trust me, there is a surprise in this random story you've never seen before. the olympics is a festival of that. it is not about reverse engineering the algorithm. you like this, therefore, we're giving 1,000 pounds of that. it's, here are people with human stories doing incredible things with stakes that feel existential. >> right. >> that's -- i mean, look, the olympics is about people really living and dying with an obscure subculture no one gave a bleep about until turning on peacock

randomly while making breakfast. we're wallowing in that in a way that feels nourishing. that is something that sports uniquely provides. >> whatever -- >> it's the french coffee. >> this is one of those, you know, global village moments. >> yeah. >> absolutely. >> we heard about -- we talk about the global village. as you said, it has been splintered up so much with the exception of the nfl and, of course, now the olympics in this case. it is being brought to the world. like you said, you can choose whatever you want. i want to talk now, we talked about media, how this is a moment in media. this is more of the same old, same old, though, as far as culture wars go. i'm not exactly sure why those on the far right always decide to pick on, you know, whether it was the nfl or the olympics,

don't pick on the nfl, it'll run you over. don't pick on the olympics. it will run you over. most people going, okay, wait, was that a greek god in festivus? i don't know. i'll turn on peacock right now. again, just trying, trying, trying to use a global event for fundraising, culture wars, for votes. again, you can try that with this and that. they tried with the nfl. i've said this before. i've had republican operatives telling me time and time again, oh, the nfl, we're going to use the nfl. this was several years ago. the nfl's ratings are going to drop, and the nfl will lose money. they should have never crossed us. this is going to be a campaign issue. nfl was like, what do we do with all the money that keeps coming in the events here? we are drowning in our money. it's the same thing with the olympics. don't take on the olympics. the olympics will win. >> yeah, there's a tugging on superman's cape, spitting into

the wind dynamic here. it's like, just the hypocrisy. >> hold on, hold on. bonus points for quoting jim, go ahead. >> i want to point out there is immense hypocrisy. the message from the gop for so long had been stick to sports. that was the claim. you guys are not sticking to sports. you're infusing your politics into our games. of course -- >> shut up and dribble. >> shut up and dribble. >> this was an entire campaign slogan. colin kaepernick, of course, and all. what's happening out of the sheer, almost animalistic desperation, is the reverse. i'm trying to watch boxing. i'm trying to watch the opening ceremony, watch celine dion appear at the eiffel tower and sing for the first time since she went away with medical maladies in a serious way. instead, we're getting people campaign on the basis of imagined, truly imagined,

fictional boogieman. it's this grafting of america's culture war onto stuff that, again, we largely know nothing about. in that way, it feels more transparently fraudulent. if you're watching the games, and we are as a country, as a world, more than we ever have because of these streaming numbers, you're realizing that what they are trying to sell you is flimsy and desperate and not grounded in the reality, especially with donald trump saying behind the podium, this used to be a biological man, a great boxer, and now he's doing this. that's just not true. >> geez. >> it's not true. >> yeah, pablo, before i let you go, speaking of the nfl, it's coming soon. >> oh, yeah. >> jack scarborough and i are very excited about that. we're not going to predict who is going to win the super bowl yet, but tell me, what are you looking at? what team are you looking at?

what specific player are you looking at that may surprise, either for good or for bad? >> yeah. i'm going to take the layup here and point to the monoculture figure that currently happens to be travis kelley. maybe this is going to seem like i'm panderering to the swifties at this point. heilemann is already mocking me. >> you always do. >> it is obvious. >> jim crochie and the swifties are the ones i'm appealing to. >> you're doing well. >> the kansas city chiefs may just be doing this again. this is a sport premised on randomness, as i say this all of the time. the ball is oblong. it bounces unpredictably. yet, the kansas city chiefs have done the patriots thing of engineering predictability. travis kelce, is he going to be on the way out? is he going to be this guy who was mostly, you know, the first gentleman of pop culture? i believe the guy still has a lot of game in him. he is a hall of famer, maybe the greatest tight end ever. he may be both a pop culture

icon -- >> good lord. >> -- and also could win a super bowl. >> pablo, did you say the ball is oblong? >> how many tickets to a taylor swift concert are you expecting to get for that suck up? >> the ball is oblong. joe, the ball is oblong. >> two. >> just two. pablo, three things i'm looking at. one, caleb williams. >> oh, yes. sure. >> i don't understand why the bears selected him first. i thought fields had a great year. that's going to be a fascinating story to see. >> that was a risk. >> whether he rises to the challenge. i think that was a massive risk. i don't get it. i'll say the same thing with my falcons. i thought penix was underrated. i don't understand why he was selected number eight, especially when they spent a lot of money. >> even bigger risk. >> even bigger risk. i'll be looking at that. finally, just america's team, as they like to call themselves,

the dallas cowboys. >> oh, boy. >> i am still stunned they didn't do anything in the offseason. >> correct. >> i'm serious. >> no, that's crazy. >> i saw jerry jones at a press conference at their facilities in oxnard, lost. like, this is a team with absolutely no direction. and the fact that they keep coming up short and did nothing in the offseason, of course, has me questioning them, which now means, of course, they will win a super bowl. but those three teams, the bears, the falcons, and the cowboys, the craziest offseason decisions, i think. if one of them comes through, they're going to be geniuses, but if not, man, what are people going to say about their management? >> yeah, no. those are better sports takes than i had today. i was getting high with the media takes, but you had real

takes. the cowboys make me want to vomit into this cup. how terrible they are, every year. >> every playoff. >> choking. >> we'll go to break while you vomit into your cup and do the other things. pablo torre, the best. this is why he is now an msnbc contributor. pablo, thank you. come back soon. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." keep that thought in your head, what he'll do in the cup. >> vomiting into his cup. i hav, i'm free from struggling with the mask and the hose. inspire? inspire is a sleep apnea treatment that works inside my body with a click of this button. no mask! no hose! just sleep. give me this thing. where are you going? i'm going to get inspire. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com.

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really early, by 7:00, and then a van in front of me hit a bear and killed it. a young bear. so i pulled over and picked up the bear and put him in the back of my van because i was going to skin the bear, and it was in very good condition. i was going to put the meat in my refrigerator. you can do that. you can get a bear for road kill, a bear. and so then i -- we went with the bear in my car. we had a really good day. we went late, catching a lot of game. the people loved us, so we stayed late. instead of going back to my home, i had to go to the city because there was a dinner at peter lugar's steakhouse. the end of the dinner, it went late, and i realized i couldn't go home. i had to go to the airport. the bear was in my car, and i

didn't want to leave the bear in the car. because that would have been bad. then i thought, you know, at that time, this was the little bit of the redneck in me, there had been a series of bicycle accidents in new york. they just put in the bike lanes. saw a couple of people get killed. it was every day, people badly injured. every day, it was in the press. so i thought, i wasn't drinking, of course, but people were drinking who thought this was a good idea. i said, i had an old bike to get rid of. someone said, put the bear in central park, make it look like he got hit by the bike. [ laughter ] >> no. that's not funny. also, that's gross. and it is totally weird to take

a baby bear and stick it in the back of your car and forget about it and go to steak at peter lugar's, then decide to reenact a bike accident where the bear got killed. not okay. >> danny, i'm not good at branding. how does this play in peoria? >> we were meeting the rev and rattner at polo, and i had the baby bison in my car. you and i were just, like, what do we do? go to polo, eat the bison? it was one of those nights i. don't remember how it ended. >> family of hunters. >> i think you drove it to the east river, but go ahead. >> okay. you know, we are a country of 330 million people. to think that our third presidential candidate, though he is down to 2%, 3%, this man is actually running for president. he is running for president. you can't make this stuff up.

by the way, alex, i'd run that loop the rest of the show. i know "morning joe" has huge numbers but nothing can top that video. >> it looks like an episode of "curb." it looks so completely outlandish. robert f. kennedy jr. >> at the end, said, are you okay? >> the last episode of "curb your enthusenthusiasm," larry s sheryl, you okay? he goes, i don't think so. >> you sure? >> there's the reason. robert f. kennedy jr. recounting that story to comedienne roseanne barr in an apparent attempt to get ahead of a new yorker article that posted this morning that revealed the ten year old incident. also with us, the president of the national action network and the host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. we can move on to bigger and

better things, i think. >> oh, okay, rev. it is fascinating, isn't it, rev? >> it is. when you thought robert kennedy jr. couldn't get weirder, talking about the era of weird in politics between jd vance and robert kennedy jr. >> mm-hmm. >> this got a lot weirder. i can't imagine. he elaborated on it. i thought it was something he o details. to think people are actually voting for him, all i can say is, let us pray. [ laughter ] >> let us pray. you know, john, i've known him for a while, always nice. always nice. but, you know, i think it is safe to say that people that have known him for a long time, fair to say he's quirky. is that fair to say, john? >> i mean, that's a very gentle

way of putting it. i mean, i know he probably doesn't fall into your catch-all, joe, of weirdos, insurrectionists, and freaks. >> right. >> i've always wanted to know how you distinguish between the weirdos and the freaks, but we'll put that aside for now. i think he's, you know, a conspiracy theory loving oddball. again, that's a kind way of putting it. i think he's put a lot of dangerous ideas in the public space. he is someone who, you know, in the world of politics, someone who, for a long time, was a champion -- was regarded as a mainstream member of the environmental movement, who, on the basis of his behavior, some of the positions he's taken, was read out of the environmental movement. people won't have anything to do with him. we talked earlier about the oddness of the worm in his brain that he's claimed. then, also, not only has he

acknowledged he sexually harassed a babysitter of his. he's basically said, there may be more stories like this. i've been around a long time. there may be more stories like that coming down the pike. that's a paraphrase, but he's been on the record saying there are other stuff out there about him. quirky is one way of putting it. also, diminishingly relevant to politics. you did point out earlier, you know, you still see it, though he is down to 2% nationally, that with him in the race or him in the polling, it helps kamala harris. it's something a lot of people thought all along, that he would take more votes from donald trump because of his conspiracy theoriesanti-vax news. it'd be worse for trump than joe biden and now harris. look, he is dwindling as a political stock with every

passing moment, and the bear thing does not do anything to reverse that. >> well, which is actually good news for donald trump. again, mika, at least in recent polling with trump and harris, it may be tied, then you put rfk jr. into the mix, and kamala picks up one, two points. donald trump is backing out of the abc news debate against vice president harris and is proposing another debate on his terms. trump said he won't participate in the september 10th debate because president biden will no longer be his opponent, after he dropped out of the race. trump took to truth social to declare he'd only show up to a september 4th fox news debate in pennsylvania with a full arena audience. adding in a follow-up post that he picked the new date strategically as early voting begins september 6th. harris responded on x, writing,

it's interesting how any time, any place becomes one specific time, one specific safe space. i'll be there on september 10th, like he agreed to. i hope to see him there. you know, if he's not there, she can have a national audience for an hour and talk about what she might do when she becomes president of the united states of america. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, they already decided, the campaign decided where they were going to meet. he obviously is now proposing something that is no more likely for kamala harris to attend than him attending something on msnbc in primetime. it's just not going to happen, which means he's try to figure out a way to get out of this debate gracefully. just not going to be able to do it. >> no. let's recall here that trump is arguing the reason why that september date shouldn't be valid anymore is that the plan was for him to debate joe biden.

if you read the contract, the negotiation, the settlement, the agreement about this debate, joe biden's name isn't in there. it is the republican nominee versus the democratic nominee. but that is what the trump camp is trying to do. he's also alleged, you know, bias against some of the abc anchors, which is nonsense. we've now heard from the vice president's campaign saying, look, we're not going to change the plan. we'll be there september 10th. there have been some democrats saying, let's be clear, she shouldn't debate on fox. fox had to pay $787 million as part of a 2020 big lie related settlement that still pushes on -- >> hey, jonathan. jonathan, not only that, this is serious, they all deliberately mispronounce her name, kamala, repeatedly, all the hosts. kamala, kamala. >> some don't do it on purpose, but there is definitely a kind

of thingre doing there to make even her name seem different or whatever. >> it'd be like if msnbc host v. would he want to go on a network where they deliberately mispronounce his name. kamala here. work with me. it's kamala. >> yeah, the sense would be it'd be rigged, to your point. why should she go to fox, still putting forth the bad faith arguments? i've talked to people in both campaigns who believe, eventually, a deal will be reached, probably on the abc date. maybe trump will negotiate changes. maybe we'll have a crowd. the biden team got what they wanted in terms of format last time. ended up not working out for the president. >> yeah. >> there's some room for negotiation. i do think, especially if you're trump, my guess would be he will

do this debate eventually. for two reasons. one, i don't think he could stand being called a coward if he actually does duck the debate with the vice president. secondly, if momentum continues this direction and harris gets a boost from her running mate pick, gets a boost from a strong convention a couple weeks from now, and we heard from karl rove at the top of the show, if she's got momentum and got a lead, trump is going to need the debate in an effort to try to change the narrative of the race. >> yeah, and that would be an opportunity. he does bulldoze people. he doesn't have boundaries of the truth, so a debate is where he could make a big impact if he wanted to. now, ahead of his rally in georgia over the weekend, former president trump took to his truth social page to reignite an old feud with republican governor brian kemp and kemp's wife. in a lengthy post, trump slammed georgia's first family and said he didn't want their endorsement. he also accused them of being the reason he was indicted in

fulton county's interference rico case. and at his atlanta rally, trump kept railing against governor kemp. he also started going on and on about the election potential he not being fair and doing all of that stuff. >> being rigged, meaning he is starting to feel the pressure, of possibly losing. >> you get the sense that this candidate wants to question the results of the election if it doesn't go his way. let's not miss the point. >> let's bring in policer reporter for the "atlanta journal constitution." greg, we talk about the disaffected republican voters in the northern suburbs of atlanta. i think you brought up the southern suburbs of atlanta, as well. tell us, put it in perspective, how popular governor kemp is with republicans as well as democrat, and also what republicans who felt burned by donald trump in 2020, again in 2022, how republicans, a lot of

republicans are feeling about what donald trump said about governor kemp in this 2024 cycle. >> yeah. polls regularly show governor kemp is the most popular republican in georgia. look to 2022 when he beat trump's hand-picked candidate, david perdue, by 20 points. this was a battle no one in georgia wanted. that was a flashback to 2021, 2022, all the battles republicans here thought were behind them. donald trump just stunningly reopened all those raw wounds to really no effect. no one saw this coming at all. you know, there had been some sort of unspoken truce between kemp and donald trump. of course, there's bad blood between the two, but there is a thought here in georgia that the former president had laid that aside and put the party's interest over his own feuding with local republicans. that's gone out the window right now. there are republicans going on the record saying he might have just lost georgia. >> greg, when you look at the

fact that governor kemp, despite the fact democrats did so well in the state in some cases unexpectedly. we saw the election of senator warnock, yet kemp was able to survive. is it not only politically silly, if not outright stupid for trump who needs georgia to attack him, but it also shows the kind of republican brand that can really make voters go democrat and republican at the same time, though i don't agree with kemp's politics. he really showed there is a way to make voters balance, and trump is going opposite that way. >> exactly. rev, trump needs kemp a lot more than kemp needs trump. look back at 2022. the reason why kemp won but also senator warnock won is there were the kemp/warnock voters. voters up in the north atlanta

suburbs and the state, republicans willing to hold their nose and vote for senator warnock and democrats holding their nose, voting for governor kemp. the small but decisive block of voters will play a role again in november. it is hard to see a lot going to donald trump, especially after the latest antics where he is going after, again, a popular governor here in georgia. >> political reporter for "the atlanta journal constitution." >> greg, by the way, how will the falcons do this year? >> we're more into georgia bulldogs in my family, but it'll be an interesting season. there's high hopes for the falcons. i don't understand this selection with penix. i don't get it. >> we'll see. let's talk about the bulldogs. will they finally beat my crimson tide now that nick saban is going on espn predicting alabama finishing third in the acc? >> we're in for another national championship year here in

atlanta. >> okay. we shall see. hope springs eternal. >> greg, thank you very much. donny deutsch, i'm noticing a pattern in trump's events. whether the nabj event last week or the georgia event over the weekend, where, you know, don't let the racism and the hatred get in the way of what donald trump is saying about what he will do if elected president again. during the nabj event last week, he was going after this abc reporter, calling her names, really actually put her in danger. also, talked about, when asked about the january 6th, quote, hostages, the convicted criminals, the people who defecated and vandalized and brutalized people at the capitol who were convicted for their crimes, when asked, you know, who would decide how to pardon these people, since you said you want to pardon them, donald trump said, i'll decide.

i and a group of people, deflect, deflect, i'll decide. you see here, while he is going after brian kemp and being all hateful, he's also talking about, questioning the results of the election again. all these things are part of the package that does not include democracy. what do you say to that? >> i think donald trump is getting stupider. and i didn't think that was possible. >> is that a word? >> is stupider not a word? got more stupid. regardless, okay, he goes to georgia and takes on this popular governor. he's on stage last week with -- at the black journalist conference, suggesting that kamala is not really black. he talks a few weeks, a week earlier, christians, they're not going to have to vote again in four years. he tells jews they're stupid if they support a democrat. he finds a way to seem more

ignorant. >> hateful. >> donny, the republicans pick up on it. you know, i saw on the sunday shows yesterday, they were all picking up on this. oh, she's asian-american, whatever. they somehow forget that she went to howard university. >> yeah. >> was sorority. it's absolutely bizarre. but i want to talk about the vice presidential sweepstakes. it seems to me that shapiro, josh shapiro, governor of pennsylvania, may be the favorite. he is the choice that the trump campaign fears the most because he puts pennsylvania firmly in play. the guy, speaking about popular governors. i saw one poll have his approval ratings in the low 60s in pennsylvania. so there is great fear in the trump campaign that josh shapiro will be selected.

however, there has been a bit of a backlash and a whispering campaign that i found a bit disturbing. what about you? >> yeah. it's reprehensible that you've got far, far, far left people putting tropes out about him being jewish. his stance on israel is no different than any of the other vice presidential candidates. i wonder if the moderate end of the democratic party suggested any other minority would not be okay running, everybody's hair would be on fire, rightfully so. yet, somehow suggesting him being jewish is a liability is just kind of -- we report it, and it is disgusting, vulgar, and i think donald trump is part of that, has to own up to taking some responsibility for that, also. >> well, it's also self-defeating. we'll see what happens. >> a lot of people were clapping for it but yeah. donny deutsch, thank you very much for being on. >> a lot of good choices there. we love tim walz.

that guy is hilarious. >> yeah. >> of course -- >> i'm a fan. >> senator kelly brings a lot from arizona, as well. >> yeah. >> i've got to say, though, as far as my politics go, i mean, you have to nail down the beachhead first. >> yeah. >> beachhead is pennsylvania. then you're looking at a map where you have to win michigan and wisconsin. or you win wisconsin and georgia, and you're still president. >> a lot of options. >> you have options. coming up, dow jones ceo alomar latore joins us in studio. >> great news. >> how evan gershkovich is coping and what went down behind the scenes to bring his home. also ahead, the judge overseeing donald trump's 2020 election interference case has dismissed an effort to have it thrown out. legal analyst lisa rubin and joyce vance standing by with what happens next.

as we go to break, an update on two stories we've been following this morning. first, hurricane debby officially made landfall off the west coast of florida. officials warn of life-threatening storm surge and major flooding. also happening right now, markets are dropping sharply ahead of this morning's open. the dow is down more than 800 points. stocks plunged around the world over fears of an economic slowdown. "morning joe" will be right back. switch to shopify so you can build it better, scale it faster and sell more. much more. take your

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beautiful, beautiful scene from new york city. >> clarification here. >> by the way, our young intern, city lansing, sent us this from miriam webster. stupider and stupidest, are they real words? this is what was reported. while there are many, often contradictory rules on comparative and s superlatives, the stupider and stupidest have a long history of usage. they're words in good standing. >> great. >> now to this. the moment journalists in the newsroom at "the washington post" -- "wall street journal"r

released from russian custody. [ applause ] after being wrongfully held for over a year on espionage charges, evan arrived back in the states on thursday and reunited with his family in an emotional moment at joint base andrews. >> wow. >> joining us now. >> wow, wow. >> ceo of dow jones and publisher of the "wall street journal," you look so happy. so glad to have you back on the show. you did not look like this the last time. . you are smiling. >> i will say, what you, what emma tucker, what the entire "wall street journal" team did to just constantly shine a light on this kidnapping by russia, just extraordinary. tell me how you're feeling, how

emma, how the entire team are feeling right now. most importantly, evan. >> yes. let's start with evan. you saw him on the tarmac, and you saw the energy that the guy has, just walking toward his family, lifting up his mom. then after that, i don't know if you have footage of this, but he walked over and embraced the crowd, had conversations, connecting with old friends. that's the spirit he's got. i spent a little bit of time with him on friday and on saturday. i'm going to be very careful here to grant the family and him their privacy. now they're free, they have to be spokespeople for themselves. but he's got a lot of energy. i i think we're going to hear a lot more from him over time. >> what's it mean to the organization? what does it mean to the "wall street journal" family that he's back? >> it's just an indescribable feeling. you saw everybody rise up.

there was a poignant moment right before that because there had been reports out and headlines that of course he was coming, but some organizations, news organizations jumped the gun. we were waiting for a signal that his plane was actually on the ground and that he had left russian custody and just right before that -- >> can i ask you -- can i ask you -- i know you don't want to say anything critical about other news organizations, but i can tell you that reporters were enraged -- i'm just saying bloomberg broke the embargo -- enraged that they put at risk possibly this release. any response to that? >> well, all i can say is that the standards that we apply at the "wall street journal" are very clear on that. you don't report something unless you have it confirmed. you just don't want to push ahead. embargoes are embargoes and when

people's lives are at stake you take those embargoes even more seriously so i will leave it at that. >> what other hopeful signs, just from seeing evan come seeing his -- what he wrote before he left asking for an interview with vladimir putin, do you get a sense you might see him back at work sooner than you might imagine? >> he is a journalist and that question alone indicated that he's -- he cannot think any differently, he thinks in stories, he thinks in news, and i think he will embrace that fully. it will be up to him when he pulls the trigger on that, when he wants to actually move forward with telling that story, if he wants to take his time or if he wants to share that sooner. this is the beauty of the situation we are in right now. he doesn't need surrogates, he can come out himself and that's what we're celebrating here. >> yes. the journal did an amazing tiktok of what happened and how this went down, but could you

take us behind the scenes a little bit? just because there were so many players. there was the government, there was evan's family, there was the journal and the newsroom, there was. >> you yes. it was a 16-month ordeal, so there were so many hands that went into this, so many people have contributed worldwide. we had set up a team inside the "wall street journal" and dow jones focusing on legal, focusing on advocacy, focusing on communications, of course, the reporting itself had to be strictly separated from everything that we did on the advocacy part. so this was a ride with a lot of ups and downs. we thought we came close at one point and then that wasn't the case in a very tragic way and in the end all that matters now is that he's out. >> explain to us how evan became a symbol for people across all demographics, people that may not even be "wall street

journal" readers or do not agree with the editorial page, started seeing evan as a real symbol. i mean, people everywhere were praying for evan. explain how that kind of campaign succeeded over this long period of time because we've seen hostages that were forgotten and somehow evan always seemed relevant and something that all of us cared about. >> well, everybody can relate to a young man in the prime of his life and for him to see his freedom taken away, everyone has a mom and seeing his mother and his family get hurt, i think these were emotions that i think americans and people around the world could very much imagine having if all of a sudden an evil dictator decides to take you out and put you in prison and put you through some form of

mental torture by putting you in a prison meant for dissidents. it's a story that i think touched people very, very deeply. and of course we have at the "journal" even though not everyone reads the "wall street journal" -- >> i do. >> thank you very much. but it's a very powerful platform and it raises some questions as to what happens to you when you don't have that in a situation like that. >> ceo of dow jones and the publisher of the "wall street journal" almar leteur, you look ten years younger. >> you do. you look so much younger than the last time you were on. weight of the world off your shoulders. >> thank you for coming on and sharing with us. after being on hold for months donald trump's federal election interference case is going back to course. we will talk about the next steps and the impact of the

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former president donald trump's election interference case was formerly sent back to u.s. district judge tanya chutkan on friday after a supreme court opinion last month narrowed the prosecution's scope. in rulings on saturday judge chutkan rejected trump's request to dismiss the case, though she

added he could file a new motion once issues of immunity have been resolved. she also set a scheduling conference for august 16th. the case has been on hold since december, as trump's appeal worked its way through the courts. joining us now former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin and former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. lisa, i will start with you. procedure, tell us what's going on here and does trump have to show up at that conference and any of these proceedings? >> so let's start with does he have to show up at the status conference. the answer is no, mika, the judge said in her order over the weekend that his appearance is waived. he doesn't have to come. in terms of what's next, we have one deadline this week and then obviously that status conference next week. the deadline this week is for what's called the joint status report from the parties where they are going to tell her what they each think is the best way forward. remember according to the

supreme court judge chutkan now has to decide essentially which allegations can be in the case and which have to come out pursuant to their decision on presidential immunity. each side is going to have their own ideas as to how she can best get to that decision and what she needs to hear from them. we will likely hear from the government that they think evidence needs to be put forward and that they need a hearing. we also expect to hear from the trump team according to some reporting from hugo lowell of the guardian that they don't think any evidence sharing needs to happen at all, that this can just happen on the papers. we will see that report on the 9th. on the 16th at 10:00 a.m. judge chutkan is back in control and the lawyers will appear before her then. >> all right. joyce -- go ahead, jonathan. we were trying to get your shot up. are you there? >> i am here. i am still here. >> good. >> joyce, a similar question to you in terms of is there any chance in your estimation that

this trial could still happen between now and the election? and, you know, what role do you think the supreme court immunity ruling plays? >> right. so there's absolutely no chance this one is getting to trial, jonathan, and that's because the way the supreme court structured this decision, judge chutkan will make her rulings and if she permits any of the charges to go forward, any of the allegations in the indictment to remain in place, indicates that the government can use any of this evidence, despite trump's claims that it's all now cloaked in presidential immunity, there will be a round two appeal. because the way immunity works and the supreme court makes this clear is the whole point of having immunity is you shouldn't have to stand trial for charges that you have immunity from. so trump will inevitably take objection to anything that she permits to move forward. i look back longingly on our salad days when we all assumed

presidents like anyone else in the country could be prosecuted for criminal conduct. i remember mitch mcconnell saying that during impeachment proceedings. that's not the world we live in. this case will not happen quickly. what's important, though, is that these proceedings -- look, this is a routine step in any case. this status conference setting of the procedure for remaining proceedings we will get some sense what have process judge chutkan will use to decide which allegations the government can go forward on. >> lisa, with the classified documents case it came as a surprise when it was dismissed by judge cannon. with this case could we expect anything similar in terms of disruptions, surprise, a black swan? >> i think one of the surprises could be just how much of the case judge chutkan is willing to take out based on the immunity ruling. she is certainly willing to go ahead, has been itching to forge ahead. certainly it looks as if she had

at least one of these opinions sort of in the hopper waiting for the case to be returned to her, but i think the biggest surprise could be how much of the case she's willing to let go forward. there is a general presumption that she believes certainly based on her immunity decision that the president should have been amenable to all of these charges. so what she allows to go forward, if she slims this down, if she slims this down considerably, i think that might come as a surprise to some folks. >> all right. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin and former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you both. we will be watching this with your help. thank you. and the third hour of "morning joe" continues right now. >> remember, bet tore look at an average of polls and we just don't have a lot of battleground state polls since all of these things began to shift. take a look at the national number, though, and you will get a sense of this. remember, before the first debate with biden and trump,

trump was leading by close to three points or above three points depending on when you looked at it. trump today is leading by 1.2%. 1.2 points. there's an outlier in there, their polling gives him a five-point lead. without that outlier he's leading by less than 1%, 0.8. in fact, if you look at it there are five polls in the real clear politics average that occurred before the 25th of july. trump leads in all five of those. of the five polls that have been held since the 26th of july, he leads -- he leads in only two, she leads in three. so i fully expect that the momentum she has is going to carry her through unless it's a disastrous vice presidential choice, this momentum is going to leave her in the lead at the end of the democratic convention. >> you might see that choice soon. long time republican strategist karl rove on friday predicting kamala harris's momentum will soon give her a solid lead over

donald trump in the polls. and it appears he's correct, with new polling showing harris is gaining on the former president in battleground states. meanwhile, the vice president is expected to name her running mate before tomorrow's rally in philadelphia. we will have the latest on the veep stakes. as for the former president he was in atlanta over the weekend just days after harris held a rally in the same place and during his rally trump complained about the massive crowd that turned out for harris, attacking the state's republican governor and congratulating russian president vladimir putin on last week's -- >> well, that's normal. >> -- prisoner swap. wow. >> because he also of course congratulated vladimir putin for invading ukraine. >> there's that. >> saying it was a brilliant move. some people would say it's bizarre. i would agree, too. i would also agree that robert kennedy jr. once again in the news for all the wrong reasons. >> it's really bizarre, this

story of robert f. kennedy jr. who is claiming to have dumped a dead bear cub, a baby bear, in central park years ago. was he going to eat it? >> skin it and eat it. >> and then he got rid of it. a baby bear? >> jonathan lemire, i heard that he was going to skin it and eat it but just ran out of time. i don't know these things. >> why? >> and then made it look like -- >> a bike attack. >> -- a biker ran over it. and then "the new york times" story was written by his cousin, ten years -- it's all very weird, but do you know what, in times like these when little things make sense at all, that's when you want the person right there, sort of as the level wind to be roseanne and roseanne was there going what in the holy hell are you talking about?

>> it's a political staple that when you're trying to get ahead of a story you have to involve roseann. the revelation of rfk jr.'s video united us collectively with a what the -- >> exactly. >> let's quickly recap this. we will get into it later. >> very good. >> basically he was hiking, upstate new york, found a dead bear. >> yes. >> this is what he says. >> found a dead bear. >> he decided i would like to have this dead bear, i could skin it, eat it, bear meat for a later meal. he throws it in his truck, he then heads to new york city for an expensive dinner at a steakhouse, realizes then that he has to -- that the bear is still in his car. he then says he realizes he has to catch a flight -- >> he is then full. he was going to eat the bear cub. >> is this winter because the

bear is getting warm in the car. >> he was going to eat the dead bear cub, right? then he has reservations so he gets out, he's full, he goes, well, i guess i'm not -- >> we've all had that -- we've all had that dilemma when you realize i have the bear meat in the car, oh, man, the steak here is so good i should probably eat this. >> jonathan, i walked out of the polo bar a couple of weeks ago, walked outside, i forget, i've got an elk's head in my trunk. i was like, wait a second, i can't eat that anymore. what's he do next? >> first of all, he would have had to have made a stop at an atm because the restaurant a cash only. then he realizes i have to get to the airport but i've still got this bear meat in the car. so he consults with his dinner companions, what should we do? they hit upon this idea, to

drive to central park, dump the bear, dead bear cub there, and stage it as if the bear had been killed by a bicyclist. and then that story ten odd years ago was a national story. a bunch of outlets covered t they said there is a dead bear in central park, that's newsworthy. yes, as you mentioned, it was a kennedy family relative unbeknownst to her that had the story for "the new york times" the next day. apparently "the new yorker" was about to drop a major profile of robert f. kennedy jr., this anecdote was going to be involved so rfk jr. tried to get out ahead of it with the help of one roseanne barr. >> we have dead baby bear in his cub, brain warms. >> to pick up road kill, my

mother always taught me that you make sure that it's freshly killed. >> freshly killed. >> still warm and you get it right to cut it up and freeze it. you don't leave it in your car to smell and get grosser. this is sick. >> we have a former aide to the white house elise jordan. she has no road kill stories for us. eugene robinson. gene, go ahead, we will bear with it. go ahead. >> oh, there it is. >> i just want to say this was not a youthful indiscretion. this man was like 60 years old. this happened ten years ago. >> that's what i don't get. >> okay. so recently. he recently did this. and it was bear road kill. yes. that's all i've got. >> i'm going to -- i'm just going to say i wrote about this when actually this happened in my family.

my parents are refugees from world war ii and starved for two years and it was a dear. so i'm really concerned about someone picking up a baby bear and thinking about skinning it and then faking its death in central park. there is a big difference. it's not even about eating road kill. >> congratulations on trying to make this story about you, dear. if you read mika's book if there was a dear that had been struck or killed on the side of the road. >> old dominion road, mcclain, virginia. >> and mrs. brzezinski got the best part. >> she did get the best part. thank you for remembering that. >> let's bring in a partner and chief political columnist, john heilemann. how does the bear vote impact the northern swing states? >> oh, baby. >> oh, wow. >> the guy had a worm in his brain, right, before this?

>> right. >> isn't that right? >> there's that. >> and there's been a thing where about where he sexually harassed a baby-sitter, right? >> and was not apologetic at all. >> and said afterwards that there might be more of those. and now we've got this bear story. i think on the scale of the weirdness, this is -- i mean, as weird as this is, it doesn't really rate compared to the weirdness of the worm in his brain and in terms of disqualifying this as compared to the sexual harassment claim. also i will note, joe that is correct this man according to the yougov poll, bobby kennedy jr. has 2% nationally now. >> what's going on? >> i'm looking forward to the day when we don't have to talk about -- i mean, the man, his political significance a dwindling pretty fast and hopefully we won't have to talk

about him any more soon. >> interestingly enough that's good news for donald trump because it seems in the most recent polls he's taking straight from donald trump. so it's very interesting. >> vice president kamala harris -- >> you wouldn't see that coming that -- everybody is saying we have this weird thing. weird. weird. he's been talking about weirdoes, insurrectionists and freaks for years. democrats are like i'm so shocked, i don't -- i said, don't be shocked. call them what they are. they're weirdoes, insurrectionists and freaks. >> vice president kamala harris and former president donald trump are essentially tied according to the latest poll from cbs news and yougov. in the survey harris' support of 50% of likely voters nationwide compared to 49% for trump lies within the margin of error. among likely black voters harris

leading trump 81% to 18% that's lower than 87% of black voters who voted for the biden/harris ticket in 2020 but an eight-point increase from biden's numbers in the last poll conducted before he ended his campaign. >> they would say most definitely going in the right direction. >> among young voters harris' lead over trump is similar to the one biden held in his last poll. according to the survey harris leads trump by 26 points among 18 to 29 year olds after biden led by 22 points last month. in 2020 exit polls show biden beat trump by 24 points among that same group. cbs news is also out with its first battleground states' estimates of the 2024 election cycle which are gathering -- gathered based on past polling, census data and historical trends. according to the tracker trump and harris are deadlocked in arizona, michigan and pennsylvania. trump holds leads within the

margin of error in georgia, north carolina and wisconsin, while harris leads within the margin of error in nevada. wow. >> not really surprising here, john heilemann. i mean, obviously surprising if you look at all the polls how most of them, the most recent polls have all -- we have had a bit of a reversal where you heard karl rove coming in talking about the momentum seems to be on her side and it does seem to be on her side right now, on the democrats' side. she's pulled ahead by one or two points in most polls which means it's tied. you look at the swing states, it means it's tied. what i find fascinating and completely predictable is the fact that joe biden was having the biggest problems and we've said it on this show forever that joe biden would have to bring home younger voters, people of color. that's what kamala harris has peers to be doing here. she's bringing home people of color, she's bringing home younger voters of the democratic party and the big question on

who is going to be the next president of the united states is whether she can perform almost as well as joe biden did among older working class white voters in wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania. so that's the $64,000 question, isn't it? >> it is. i would broaden that $64,000 question to ask the question whether she could perform as well as joe biden did in 2020 with young voters, african american voters and latino voters because although she has -- undeniably the momentum is with her right now, she is performing better than biden was prior to his decision to bow out and actually better than he was throughout the whole last couple years with all of those groups. her number, though -- his number was way down from where his numbers were with those groups in 2020. she has made up -- she's overperforming him in 2023, 2024 but she's still not up to the levels that he was at in 2020

with any of those groups. that is one of the things that she has to do. there's reasons to think if this momentum continues with all of those voter segments that she can do that, but -- and the numbers are all going in the right direction, but she's still not -- she's still not there, you know, if you look at even when this -- i'm trying to look at what the number here is on -- with african americans as an example. she has -- right now is at 81 with -- >> right. >> 81 to 18 over trump. biden had 90% of the black vote in 2020. so i will just say that there's no one on the harris campaign doesn't realize that those are categories where they need to ride the momentum, the rise that she's had and try to get her back to joe biden level of 2020 if she's going to be able to win the election in november. >> so, gene robinson, the poll has this tidbit about black voters, on july 18 those

surveyed 58% said they are it definitely going to vote. that number jumps to 74% now. that is significant. we know the trump campaign has said they've tried to make inroads with those communities. obviously we've seen his numbers dwindle. it's the priority of the harris campaign. speak to us about the state of the race, that's part of it now, but it seems like the map is expanding because by the final days of the biden campaign he seemed to only have one path to victory the pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan route, while for harris she's got options. >> she's got options. this just in, she is going to match biden's numbers among african american voters. i mean, i am sure of that. and so, yeah, all of a sudden what about georgia? what about north carolina? you know, there are -- and what kinds of vote margins can she get out of philadelphia and pittsburgh in pennsylvania? out of milwaukee in wisconsin? out of detroit in michigan?

i think these are significant gains that she has made. even if you just look at african american voters. and she's been a candidate for all of two weeks, right? so let it sink in at least for another couple of weeks and we'll see where we are, but it's very clear what direction she's headed. >> coming up a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including violent protests in the uk, dangerous weather in the gulf and a huge weekend at the box office. "morning joe" is back in a moment. oe" is back in a moment it's pods biggest sale of the summer is extended. save up to 25% on moving and storage until august 12 and see why pods has been trusted with over 6 million moves. but don't wait, use promo code big25 to save. visit pods.com today. ♪ “billathi askara” by björn jason lindh ♪ [metal creaking] [camera zooming] ♪

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donald trump was in atlanta saturday, that's as joe mentioned the same building where vice president kamala harris held a rally just four days earlier. before trump even arrived at the georgia state university convocation center he was tempering expectations for the size of his crowd, writing on social media that harris only filled the building because she had entertainers perform at her rally, but the associated press notes that was not the case and the 25 minutes harris spoke n fact, trump lost sizable chunks of supporters across his 91-minute speech. yet trump frequently returned to the topic of crowd size, even suggesting that school administrators conspired with the harris campaign to keep his supporters outside the arena.

>> crazy kamala, ultra left, you know that. she was here a week ago, lots of empty seats. the crowds she got was because she had had entertainers. the school administration stopped us from getting another 500, 600, even 1,000 people in. thousands of people were told no. i'm not happy about t if they're going to stand in the way of admitting people to our rally just imagine what they're going to do on election day. they've got thousands of people they won't let them in. harris, do you know why, because they don't want to show that we're successful. she has to go get entertainers, they start leaving as soon as she opens her mouth. by the way, the entertainer couldn't fill the place, either, even with the help of the school. the students were trying to get students, please go, this is embarrass to go us, please go.

>> this is one of those things where you ask are you going to believe me or the lying eyes? the fact is the harris rally was packed. there is a lot of excitement. more excitement than we've seen at a democratic rally in a very long time. it certainly reminded a lot of reporters there of barack obama in 2008. again, excitement that a lot of people have been saying has sort of been bottled up for quite some time for democrats and they are out there now. elise we've always said we've always believed -- i've always told people running for office that campaigns are about the future, they are not about the past. i could add to that they are not about crowd sizes, they are not about grudges, they are not about resentments, they are not about all the things that fueled donald trump's campaign. he won in '16 and i'm not going to go through the litany of years that trump republicans have lost from 2017 all the way through 2023. it's because it's always resentment, always crowd sizes, always who he's going to -- you

know, who is treasonous, always praising vladimir putin. it's all these really weird things. what have i said, weirdoes, insurrectionists and freaks, the extremists that are far out there pushing a lot of -- a lot of the crazy stuff. it's just, again, that's not where middle america is. >> if donald trump stays out there and keeps bringing negative attention on himself, not any of his legal problems, just by what he did at the atlanta rally, you know, talking badly about popular gop governor, that was a great move in a state you need to win, and you can just see donald trump is responding to all of the enthusiasm surrounding kamala harris' campaign. you've got the enthusiasm comes first, then comes the uptick in the polling, which we're starting to see and then it's going to be the ballot. donald trump is responding to a

chain of events that is probably starting to feel a little bit out of control as he is just groping around, getting nastier and angrier and losing all sense of discipline, every modicum that he had summoned for a week-long period, that that's just clearly gone, evaporated and he is back to old donald trump. >> yeah. coming up, will the democrats' vp selection carry home court advantage? steve kornacki explains how a running mate's roots might factor into the presidential race. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." race that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

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you know, jonathan lemire, at the georgia rally we are really burying the lede. donald trump has been a scourge, a scourge, to georgia republicans and they've said as much. he was responsible for their loss in the 2020 senate race and which of course kept republicans from being the majority party in the united states senate. he was responsible for the senate candidate's loss in 2022 which also helped democrats control the senate again. he goes in in 2024, kamala harris makes georgia a swing state once again as you've said and the numbers are all showing it, and what does he do? he's raging behind the scenes according to -- to my sources inside the campaign. so what does he do? he does the exact thing that his campaign staff, that members of the georgia gop, would not want him to do, he picks a fight with

an extraordinarily popular republican governor. and i will say also with a secretary of state in georgia that, yes, recorded donald trump trying to rig the election, and then brad raffensperger then went to the polls the next fall with donald trump trying to defeat him and what happened? he won in a landslide victory in the primary. but this is what donald trump -- instead of doing what would have been good for donald trump and good for republicans and either making peace with brian kemp and brad raffensperger or at least not saying anything, this is what donald trump did at a critical moment in this campaign. >> your governor kemp and raffensperger are doing everything possible to make 2024 difficult for republicans to win. what are they doing? i don't know. they've got something in mind, you know? they've got a little something

in mind. kemp is very bad for the republican party. under these kinds of woke radical left policies atlanta is like a killing field and your governor ought to get off his [ bleep ] and do something about it. he is a bad guy, he is a disloyal guy and he is a very average governor. little brian. little brian kemp. bad guy. but think of it i got this guy -- just think, and then that's it. i got him elected. without me he doesn't get nominated and he doesn't get elected. he is a bad guy and he is not doing this country a good service. people are looking at georgia with fani and her lover and all of the other things saying, what the hell is going on in georgia? what the hell is going on? the radical left democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020 and we're not going to let them rig the presidential election in 2024.

>> the new trump. >> he's getting ready for a fight. >> you know, the thing is, jonathan, in so many ways this is so bad for him. it's so bad for his campaign. i will just underline to everybody again when they talk about what brian kemp has done, he got only won easily in the general election, he won a landslide in the gop primary. republicans like him there. donald trump's biggest problem was that a lot of republicans stayed home in the northern suburbs of atlanta. people -- republicans in the northern suburbs of atlanta love brian kemp. republicans that donald trump need the most love brian kemp. he used his rally in atlanta, trashing their governor, and, again, you just -- there's nothing logical about it, there's nothing rational about it, there's nothing sane about

it. and so the question for republicans inside and outside of that campaign is what's wrong with donald trump? >> yeah, remember that georgia arrived as a swing state ahead of schedule in 2020 because you have trump's poor performance in office and then of course no one anticipated the democrats would get both senate seats but trump while fighting the big lie, you know, refused to go down there and campaign, the one event he had was a street against all the republicans there, turned off gop vote he wishes, democrats get both seats and the majority of the upper chamber. we have seen now all this talk of professional discipline in the trump campaign, that's gone, that's out the window right now. the candidate himself is making the decisions to the consternation of those around him. he is rattled. when you want to know how donald trump really feels look at truth social in the middle of the night and it's been skreet after skreet since vice president harris ascended to the top of

the ticket. he is rattled by the crowd size. they both filled that arena but harris could do it, biden couldn't do it. trump thinks that was a huge advantage a blow to his ego. it can't be said enough, brian kemp is really popular in georgia. the combination of harris at the top of the ticket and trump reigniting the feud with kemp, a couple republicans said to me georgia is very much in play right now and feel like it could slip away from republicans. >> coming up, we will get the latest from wall street after japan's market logged its worst day since 1987. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." orkin joins us straight ahead on "morning joe. in english, what's the hardest thing to say? anything with a th? they threw three thick things. sixth, like fourth, fifth, and then sixth. or you mean what's really hard emotionally to say? yeah, like that.

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time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. the death penalty is back on the table for khalid sheikh mohammed

the man accused of plotting 9/11 and two of his co-defendants after defense secretary lloyd austin withdrew the plea deals that were signed early last week. the pentagon chief now has direct oversight of the case. we will keep you posted. violence erupted across britain over the weekend fueled by misinformation about a mass stabbing suspect who killed three children last week. far right and anti-immigrant demonstrators took over the streets in several cities after false rumors spread online that the person who committed the crime was in the country illegally. several officers were injured in the fighting. a new tool could help teachers stop students from using artificial intelligence to cheat. the technology exists but openai hasn't released t the company says it's concerned that the program, which has existed for years would disproportionately affect nonnative speakers. the tool is said to be 99.9%

effective. and it was another huge weekend at the box office for "deadpool & wolverine" which took in over $28 millioned on friday alone. the blockbuster could soon top $1 billion worldwide. disney has become the first studio to cross the $3 billion mark in global ticket sales. >> the dude on the right looks like tj. >> a little bit. he's got the same muscles. let's turn to hurricane debby. officials are warning of catastrophic flooding and heavy rainfall across the southeast this week. right now winds are at about 80 miles per hour. coming up, how donald trump's racist attacks on vice president harris are part of a larger unhinged plan. we will get to that new reporting from rolling stone straight ahead on "morning joe." e straight ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome back. last thursday we released the fourth annual forbes and know your value 50 over 50 list, but because of all the breaking news with the prisoner exchange, we held the segment for today. here now is a look at the extraordinarily accomplished women who make up the 2024 list. first here on "morning joe" the forbes and know your value annual 50 over 50 u.s. list. we are spotlighting another incredible group of women who have rejected the conventional wisdom that their best years are behind them. these women in their 50s, 60s,

70s, 80s and well beyond have achieved significant success and impact later in life often by overcoming major obstacles. when we first starts this had partnership between forbes and know your value back in 2021 it was so successful we immediately went global, expanding the list from the u.s. to asia, europe, the middle east and africa, and this year from filmmaker ava duvernay at 51 to former presidential adviser valerie jarrett at 67 to michelle kang a 65-year-old sports team owner to actress june squib at 94, this list may be our most impressive yet. take a look. ♪♪ >> is being over the age of 50 an advantage or disadvantage in your current work? >> i'm choosing to really believe in the experience that i've lived is making me a better

performer, a better businesswoman. so i refuse to let it be a disadvantage, but hollywood is not set up that way, so i'm constantly finding ways of maintaining what i believe is deserved opportunity and fighting for it. >> so it's absolutely an advantage and i wouldn't have it any other way because i have this plethora of experiences that one has built on the other that's built on the other through several companies and i couldn't have done that in a compacted amount of time. and i had to live, by the way, through the highs and lows of different projects and different companies' cycles. all of that is cumulative to the experience i bring today in my current role. >> being over 50 is the most liberating. like seriously, i know myself. like being over 50 you're more lean in life. you know what you like, you know

what you don't like, and i -- and a lot of people look at me and say i can't believe she's over 50. i don't always act like i'm over 50. i act age appropriate when necessary, but when i'm with my players i feel -- i feel in my 30s. >> the long shot can be very profitable. you say that about yourself. is that what you look for in entrepreneurs, the long shots? >> i'm really looking for those long shots because in a power law distributed world you are looking for long shots. it's really the few that will generate a lot of profitability. >> i never imagined -- i get emotional -- i never imagined or fathomed what i'm doing now. there was no one that i could look to who is doing what i'm doing now and i've only been making films for 12 years. there was no black woman filmmaker who had a consistent,

successful career who was making work every year. and so i would look at filmmakers by glee, most prominently, who was working in film, television, music video, commercial, documentary, moving all over the place and i thought, could a woman do that? could a black woman do that? >> when you bet on yourself, when you utilize the perseverance that it took to get you to that status, it's the same kind of gal it takes to go in there and ask for what is your worth. like you deserve that. >> i now come at things with such a different level of belief in myself and a fight. i'm not knocked ovaries i will anymore. so i'm going to forever peak. i'm going to keep peaking. why should there be one peak? it's when we start to categorize it as your time is up, you have had a good run, it's over.

who decides that? >> truly it is about your decision. you decide when it's too late. you decide when you don't want to try anymore. you decide when you're going to lean in a little bit. you decide how you want to be in the world each day in america. you are the director of your life. you call action in the morning when you wake up. maybe you just take one step and then the next day you take another step, but you decide how far you can go. no one else does. >> and here to talk about the women on this year's incredible 50 over 50 u.s. list is of course maggie mcgrath, editor of forbes women and a driving force behind the mcgrath, editor of "forbes" women and a driving force behind the list, also with us, huma abidine, the vice chair of the know your value and the "forbes" 30/50 summit, which celebrates the lists in a

multi-generational mentoring fashion in abu dhabi and new york city. maggie, the women on this list come from dozens of industries, including biotech, education, retail, architecture and beyond. tell our viewers what it took to make this list. what was so hard about it, and what stuck out to you about this year's group of women? >> mika, as you know, the process for compiling the 50 over 50 is a process that takes many, many months. we vet hundreds and hundreds of nominations from the general public. and we also do some reporting to find our own candidates who will be good people for the list. we then send the semifinalists to our judges who all told me they had such a hard time choosing among these stories of innovation and reinvention. and those are the two big themes we're seeing every year, but especially this year. entrepreneurship is a huge theme. we have 75 or so women who have either founded or owned their company, who are on this year's list, and a lot of them got the entrepreneurial bug over the age

of 50. one example of this is diana levie. she was a stay-at-home mom for 20 years. two of her the daughters were diagnosed with coeliac disease and she wanted to make a snack they could eat. that turned into undercover snacks. and it's on united airlines flights. so those are some of the highlight stories that we have in this year's package and we hope everyone goes online to read all about them. >> huma, this year, right up your alley, a number of women in politics and policy, also, made the list. so who jumps out at you? >> three names jumped out at me, even though it's an incredible, holistic list, but first and foremost you mentioned valerie jarrett, such an incredible story. at 52 was named senior adviser to president obama and the longest-serving senior adviser -- >> that is correct.

>> -- in history. as a successful businesswoman, she worked in city government and she now runs the obama foundation, she's a ceo there, and she talked about finding her voice and how to pivot. i remember in my mind that we're the wife of senator john mccain from arizona. she was this beautiful figure you saw on screen, not recognizing or realizing her own history as a businesswoman, a philanthropist, fast forward today, she is the executive director of the u.n. food program, the world food program, excuse me. previously having served as a u.s. ambassador to the u.n. agencies for food and agriculture. an extraordinary leader and so worthy to be on the list. and the last, and maggie, this is one of the reasons i love how diverse the list is -- latosha

brown, the cofounder of black voters matter, at 53. she self-identifies as an activist and a community organizer, but also an artist, a singer. she has such a diverse background. and she is a leader in leading sort of the get out the vote effort, voter suppression, voter registration, how to reach marginalized, particularly black communities. and showing that everyone's vote matters, matters and counts. so those are the three standouts from that incredible list. >> you know, living longer, living better, and having success later in life, it's the long runway. so younger women can calm down, take a couple of detours in life, do some different things. it is okay. there's no rush anymore. i grew up in a rush. everyone else can now slow down. maggie mcgrath and huma abedin, thank you both so much. you, of course, will be hearing much more about the women who

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that we are prepared to fight for the best of who we are. we believe in the promise of america, promise of freedom, opportunity, and justice, not just for some, but for all. >> vice president kamala harris thanking her staff and supporters after winning enough delegates to secure the democratic presidential nomination. the official announcement will come this evening after the virtual voting process closes for convention delegates. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. and jonathan lemire, elise jordan, reverend al sharpton are all back with us. so vice president kamala harris is closing in on the biggest decision of her two-week-old presidential campaign, as she chooses a running mate, and prepares to introduce the new democratic ticket to voters in several key battleground states this week. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has the latest.

>> reporter: with a self-imposed deadline to announce her pick by running mate by tomorrow night, vice president kamala harris hosted at least three contenders at her washington residence sunday. arizona senator mark kelly, minnesota governor tim walz, and pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, who returned home late sunday, a day after playing coy with reporters. >> i'm just taking my dog for a walk. >> reporter: in a sign of the heightened scrutiny, kelly deleting a tweet sunday that read in part, "i spent my life serving in the navy and at nasa, where the mission always comes first. now my mission is serving arizonians." his staff later saying it was just a standard post. his account later tweeting out, when your country asks you to serve, you always answer the call. it's unclear whether the vice president herself interviewed three other finalists, transportation secretary pete buttigieg, kentucky governor andy beshear, and illinois governor, jb pritzker.

since president biden stepped down two weeks, a new poll shows that harris has erased president trump's lead nationwide and it's a statistical tie in those battlegrounds. over the weekend, trump ignited an old feud with brian kemp. >> he's a disloyal guy and a very average governor. >> mr. trump also accusing the vice president of being a liberal. >> we have to work hard to define her. i don't even want to define her. i just want to say who she is. she's a horror show. she'll destroy our country. >> reporter: and continuing his personal attacks. >> she happens to be a very low-iq individual. she has a really low iq. >> now up in the air, whether the two will face off in a debate next month. >> meet me on the debate stage, because as the saying goes, if you got something to say, say it to my face. >> reporter: mr. trump this

weekend pulling out of a scheduled debate with the vice president, instead, proposing a separate matchup hosted by fox news. the harris campaign mocking mr. trump on social media, writing, "it's interesting how any time, any place, becomes one specific place, one specific safe space," saying, she'll be there on september 10th, like he agreed to. >> nbc's peter alexander with that report. so let's bring in nbc news national political correspondent, steve kornacki over at the big board. steve, what impacts could a running mate have on the ticket? what are you looking at? >> a couple things. one is the home state effect. the idea of a home state effect, when you hear the name josh shapiro, the governor of, and mark kelly. would it be different this year? a couple of ways of looking at this. just as a reminder, pennsylvania, 19 electoral

votes. of all the core battleground states, this has the most electoral votes. pennsylvania does. so when you put those electoral college road to 270 puzzle pieces together, this one looms particularly large. i don't think, the margin was 80,000 votes for joe biden over donald trump there, barely one point in 2020. and if you went back to 2016, donald trump won this state. part of that very narrow path to the protest he carved then. and if he looked down at arizona, another state that biden won in 2020, even closer. just over 10,000 votes, 0.3 of one point. that was a flip from a trump win by a 3.5 points back in 2016. the question with the shapiro or kelly in states like that, that's not much of a difference to make there potentially. could they make a decisive difference? what we've got here, let's call this up here. take a second to explain this. these are the vice presidential nominees, the running mates for democrats going back about 30, 32 years here. and what we're comparing is,

we're looking at, for instance, look at tim kaine in 2016. tim kaine was hillary clinton's running mate. in the election before 2016, before kaine went on the ticket, versus 2016, the national popular vote moved two points in the republicans' direction. comparatively, though, virginia, when kaine was on the ticket, did not move two points in the republicans' direction. it actually moved a point in the democrats' direction. so it was a little bit at odds, virginia was, with the national trend. it was more democratic. so does that automatically mean kaine produced that difference? well, no, there's state-specific factors, there's long-term demographic trends. we've seen a blue trend in virginia. but you start to see a pattern. delaware was not in play, but 2008 election, it swung ten points. delaware with biden and obama's ticket swung 17 points. is there a home state effect somewhere in there? go back to al gore in 1992, it's

getting ancient history. but the popular votes won 13 points in '92. and when bill clinton picked al gore, tennessee was still a blue state -- a democratic state, we didn't call them blue states, but it went even more. we do see what of a trend. exactly what that number would add up to. there are so many other factors that go into this. you don't quite see it with harris, but see it so often, you wonder in a state like arizona or pennsylvania, given that we're talking about a point either way, could that point be accounted for by something like what we're looking at here? >> so interesting. >> and josh shapiro's approval rating in pennsylvania and senator kelly's approval ratings in arizona, who has the bigger impact in their state? >> tough to say. here's the other wild card. we'll go back here and see if we can call up the pennsylvania results from 2022. going to take me one second. we'll get the governor's race -- >> take your time. >> -- from 2022.

and there it is. so remember the circumstances in pennsylvania. shapiro won his race in pennsylvania by a much bigger margin than kelly won his race in arizona, though there are two things that you keep in mind when you look at this. number one, in governor's races in general, i don't care what state you're talking about, we talk always about the polarization, people voting more and more state trick or treat, all democratic, all republican. we see a little bit more flux in statewide races for governor than we do in federal races like u.s. senate. so that might be a factor here. also keep in mind, doug mastriano, the republican nominee in pennsylvania -- a lot of republican leaders did not want as their nominee, things he had said about the 2020 election, about january 6th, he was very tightly aligned with trump on all of the january 6th rhetoric. so was he a particularly poor fit here? how much of this was shapiro's strength or mastriano's weakness? you have to say, a big reason

mastriano was the republican nominee was his connection to donald trump and his connection to trump and his rhetoric about the 2020 election. but if you go down to arizona, it was a bit of a similar story in arizona. that is the governor's race, we are going to show you the senate race from 2022. blake masters, another trump-aligned candidate who republicans nationally believe badly underperformed in what they saw as a very winnable race. you can see, it was a five-point difference here for mark kelly. again, talking about biden winning the state by 10,000. that's a lot more than biden won it by. and there might be a difference here. a federal office, u.s. senate, versus a governor's race in pennsylvania. this might bring more polarization into it. but you are left asking a bit of the same question here when you look at this result. does it say more about kelly's strengths or more about master's weaknesses, especially when you consider that in 2022 in arizona, there was no swing state in the country in 02 where the republicans nominated a more trump-aligned slate of

candidates. we're talking governor, senate, attorney general, secretary of state, than in arizona. they all lined up with him on things like the 2020 election and january 6th. >> so, joe and mika, the latest on the running mate search. i mean, pritzker, buttigieg, bashir, not out of the mix we're told by the vice president. but there does seem to be a clear top three at this moment, although we caution, it's fluid. and that would be governor shapiro, senator kelly, and governor walz in minnesota. you know, many people have really looked at walz and the surge he's made in the last couple of weeks. he is the democrat that sort of coined the idea that trump and vance are weird, although minnesota not a battleground state, unlike the other two. it is battleground state adjacent, in terms of with wisconsin and michigan, and not so far from pennsylvania. he actually seems to be the favorite of progressives in the party, who think that he is a really good mix of a resume that includes being a teacher, being a combat veteran, and also, you know, being very left on certain

issues, but doing so in a folksy manner. you know, the question is, is the battleground state calculus going to win out? and i think, in particular, they're zeroing in on pennsylvania, even more so than arizona. they're zeroing in on pennsylvania, shapiro who is so popular there, and harris, that was one of the states where biden was doing pretty well. we haven't seen too much polling for harris yet, although we know that it's close. there's a sense among some democrats that they think that shapiro gets her over the finish line, and this might be a shapiro versus walz decision with kelly third at the moment. >> interesting. >> it is interesting. and steve kornacki, what's so fascinating about these decisions, let's say, that it narrows down to walz or shapiro. shapiro gives you the most important battleground state in the calculus, in pennsylvania. walz gives you a demographic possibly that joe biden was very strong with. that kamala harris may not be as strong with, and that is older

western voters. who aren't college educated, specifically, where joe biden always seemed to overperform from what people expected. so this is really a specific state versus walz possibly helping in wisconsin, michigan, and pennsylvania, just because of regional and demographic factors. break that down for us, if you will. >> yeah, although i've got to say, so minnesota, where tim walz was elected governor and re-elected, it really is a good microcosm of the dynamic you're talking about there. this big divide we've seen defining american politics, white college-educated voters becoming more democratic, often found in the suburbs, white voters without college degrees often found in rural areas, exurbs, more blue collar areas, going more and more republican.

huge and huge populations in minnesota in both of them. the state really is kind of divided. this oversimplifies it a bit, but big metro area right around the twin cities here, full of college-educated, higher income, democratic leaning, democratic surging electorates, and kind of almost a ring, half a ring around the rest of the state with some exceptions there, where you just see county after county with large blue collar white populations that have swung dramatically towards the republicans, especially in the trump era. the thing with walz' performance, you're looking at it right her in 2022. he won the state by eight points in that governor's election in 2022. it actually doesn't show any difference, any meaningful difference from the way that joe biden won this state in 2020, or even for that matter, not huge from hillary clinton in 2016. there is a bit of a shift from 2016, because it's a much closer race. the basic dynamic, just take a look at becker account. this is kind of an example here of a county. i'm going to show you, tim walz

loses this by 32 points. this county could be a stand-in for a lot of the red you see on this map. he loses it by 32. biden lost it by 30 in 2020. this is one of those places, though, that swung incredibly republican, because take a look here, 2016, 33. now go back to 2012. now you're getting back to what this county used to look like. barack obama only lost this thing by 14.5 points. this is one of the keys to obama's strength in '08 and '12. in an area like this, large, white-collar population, biden was holding his own. biden bumped it up a tick, and look at walz's performance in 2022, it's right between hillary clinton and jo biden and nowhere near barack obama. i'm showing you one county here, i could be showing you dozens of counties in minnesota. the strength for walz and what won him the election is sort of a standard democratic strength these days. take a look at hennepin county, minneapolis, biggest in the

state. walz wins this thing 70-26. what did biden win it? he basically got biden's numbers in the big democratic places and biden's numbers in the blue collar republican areas, and he won the state by basically the same margin as biden. >> all right. >> that's pretty impressive. >> impressive, but does no do -- >> doesn't -- >> what we were just talking about -- >> shapiro -- >> no, i'm talking about as far as going -- it doesn't dent the more rural areas and those exurb areas. nbc's steve kornacki, thank you so much. >> steve really brings it. >> we always love having you. let's now talking about a story that could impact this election as much as any vice presidential pick, and that has to do with the stock market. the futures are tumbling this morning. there's been a massive global sell-off. my gosh, in japan.

let's bring in andrew ross sorkin right now. japan, the nikkei, i think the worst single-day loss since 1987. >> yes. >> and it just keeps going. and andrew, you know, usually, we've been saying, as far as interest rates go, bad news is good news, because that moves us closer to a rate cut. now, we saw on friday, bad news is bad news -- >> is bad news. >> like, everybody's running for the exits. this would be a day that the wise investors would say, take a deep breath and don't jump quite yet. but there are a lot of nervous people. what's going on? >> first of all, i agree with you, take a deep breath. absolutely, i think what happened on friday was, we saw a jobs report which was not as good as expected, and that bad news was, in fact, bad news. it was probably the first time we've seen news like that, and that increased the expectation that there would be a rate cut come september by the federal

reserve. but what happened over the weekend was a really shift in sentiment. i think a worry that actually maybe the federal reserve is acting too slowly. that they should have actually cut rates earlier in the process and as a result, we might actually be moving closer to what some people would describe as a recession. that is what has people anxious. you had a certain type of trade called a carry trade happen in japan get unwound. that happened in a 12% downdraft in that market. you talk about it being the worst day since 1987. you're looking at the dow off about 3%. the s&p 500 off about close to 400. and now, the nasdaq, which is where most of this is getting really hit, is down over 5%. one of the other factors that i think is weighing on the confidence is a disclosure over the weekend by warren buffett that had a lot of people raising their eyebrows. he sold half of his stake in apple. he's still the largest shareholder in apple, but as a

result, i think people are looking at that saying, okay, well, what's going on with apple? but maybe more importantly, what's going on, and what is warren buffett thinking. he didn't just sell his stake in apple, he sold his stake in bank of america, and a number of other big stocks. i should say, he still has a stake in bank of america, not that he sold it completely, but the point being that he is raising cash. and what is that really saying? is he expecting that there's going to be a downdraft and another opportunity, for him, when the stock market goes down, he thinks, you know, sale on aisle 5, while most other people look and think, oh, my goodness, you know, the knife is falling, and of course, the question is, do you catch the falling knife or let it continue to fall. and that, i think is the question this morning. >> and andrew, of course, we all remember back to -- i always quote warren buffett from 2008, when everybody was freaked out and melting down, warren buffett is saying, only a fool would bet against the united states economy. he did exactly what you were

saying, sale on aisle 5, and he just made untold billions of dollars by doing just that. i think what's so fascinating here, though, is that the five or six stocks that have really been driving the extraordinary success of the markets this year all taking a beating. that started on friday. amazon down nearly 10%. also, a really increased skepticism on ai stocks. now, we're not talking about, like, bitcoin skepticism, but just the belief right now, what you say, that some of the benefits of ai, nvidia, some of these ai stocks were just oversold. >> i think that, look, a lot of these stocks had shot up in a very, very meaningful way. i don't think ai is going anywhere. i think it's going to continue. there's going to be a continued need for nvidia chips and like -- that, i think, is not in question. i think what is in question, it relates back to apple and some of these other things, are there

going to be massive upgrade cycles? will you need a new phone this year or next year? or is it going to come three years from now? that, i think, is in question. and so there is this sort of shine coming off of ai, at least for now. i think you're going to see a lot more volatility this month. august into september, and then i think we're going to find out whether we've got sea legs in this market or not come october. october has always been one of those months where we've seen either massive downdrafts or sometimes you actually see massive updrafts. we'll try to figure this out. by the way, you mentioned bitcoin. interestingly, people talk about bitcoin as digital gold. it is not acting like that this morning. it is down to $50,000, down from $62,000, so a 15% drop this morning. on the other hand, gold is actually acting very differently. so in many ways, bitcoin is just as speculative as many of these nasdaq and ai stocks. >> and of course, oil taking an absolute beating right now, as

well. one stock that really stuck out to me was intel. again, 25% loss, i believe, on friday. their single worst day since 1985. what's that about? >> well, that's a little bit more idiosyncratic to intel. intel has not really participated in this ai boom. they have tried to argue they're in the ai play, they're trying to build chips, they're getting money, by the way, from the government, to try to build more chips, as we try to compete with taiwan, and it is just not working for them. and i think you're seeing that you know, earning report after earning report, and interestingly, their earnings report last week mentioned that will be a much tougher road for them going forward. they are not going to become the next taiwan semiconductor, at least not right now. >> and i just want to, again, we don't give stock advice here, because, as willie and i tell you all time, we bet on the dogs. we know nothing about the stock

market. >> the dogs and the horses. >> the dogs and the horses, the ponies, exactly. i will say, though, again, everybody needs tyke a deep breath. you need to think back to covid, where the market would spike, it would plummet, it would spike, it would plummet. today is going to be a bad day for the market, but, again, andrew, we've got to go, but again, every investment professional would tell you, if you're in the market -- >> hold tight. hold tight. it's going to be a bumpy couple -- it's going to be a bumpy couple of weeks, if not months. and part of that will have an impact, i imagine, on the conversation around the election. and it's going to be a continued part of that discussion. >> yeah. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. speaking of that, donald trump may be experiencing some buyer's remorse when it comes to project 2025, which he has

claimed to not know anything about, according to a recent piece in "rolling stone," entitled trump flipped out that lunatic project 2025 could tank his campaign. one trump describes the former president as practically having birthed the project 2025, while another source describing his outrage as yet another example of trump getting exactly what he wanted, and then being annoyed when his own actions come back to haunt him. joining us now, senior political correspondent at "rolling stone,"s aman soupsangswin. what does your reporting show? what's going on with this? >> well, as trump and his top people in his campaign have tried to distance themselves from project 2025 and the grossly unpopular policies embedded in its large policy book, he has put out an array of statements saying that i have nothing to do with it, which is, of course, just factually not

true at all. he knows exactly what it is, a lot of his top lieutenants are working -- have worked directly for the project. but he's been a little bit vague about what he's said. there are things in project 2025 that i find despicable and want nothing to do with. so we at "rolling stone" tried to go about figuring out, what policies, specifically, can you tell us that donald trump, caused him to have this meltdown? and what we found was very shortly before he put out a statement in early july, he was talking to some of his closest aides and confidants, almost exclusively, if not exclusively, about the abortion-related policies that are embedded within project 2025. to this day, donald trump still fears, no matter how much bluster and bravado, he still fears deeply and believes that

project 2025 and particularly the abortion-related policies within it, could potentially tank his 2024 presidential ambitions, which would of course make actual prison sentences for trump much more likely if he doesn't win back the white house in november. obviously, in project 2025, there are policy prescriptions that have to do with abortion surveillance, implementing what would essentially be a de facto national ban and also ending federal approval for abortion pills. this is not stuff that plays well even in prayoria, as people would say. >> elise jordan here. i was surprised to read in your reporting that questioning kamala harris' racial identity wasn't just trump going rogue, it actually is a strategy that the campaign endorses.

>> yes. there are a lot of moments throughout the year in his administration and during his presidential campaigns, where trump will go off the rails or do something, and then you have an abundance of leaks from his top aides saying, we don't like this, please anonymously put in the newspaper that we do not like this. this is something different and more complicated. no matter what some of them try spin now or particularly if this does not work, this is an instance where, according to our reporting at "rolling stone," the people who really matter within his orbit, including at the most senior levels on his presidential campaign, are with him. they actually think that it is smart politics to go after kamala harris' quote/unquote, invoking her mixed race identity in attack. there are some top advisers to trump who think this might help him shave off part of the vote that is already skeptical of joe biden and kamala harris.

so when -- if this ends up backfiring on them and they start to distance themselves from it and say, oh, this is just the donald trump show, that is not the case. i can tell you with extreme confidence that that is the case. and one way i know that is because we here at "rolling stone" have been hearing for weeks, if not months, that this was something, that some of his top lieutenants were considering deploying on the campaign trail, it was a kamala, as the nominee, instead of joe biden. so they can't really -- >> senior political reporter at "rolling stone," aswin supsang, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. so reverend al, whether it's project 2025, or picking j.d. vance as your running mate or going after kamala harris' race. i guess if it seems self-destructive, maybe it probably is. >> or attacking the georgia governor. >> or attacking the georgia governor and saying you're going to question the results of the election. i guess my point is, it might

seem self-destructive, but in the case of donald trump, i guess you have to wonder whether it is or not. >> i think that's right. i think we need to understand that some of this is calculated. particularly when i look at how he is trying to advance this whole attack on vice president kamala harris' racial identity. that's calculated, because they've been right to get some chunk of the black male vote, saying, oh, she's not even really black. and i think it's backfiring. because i think that when trump goes to a black journalist conference, sitting in front of three black women and attack a black woman, a lot of people that may have seen that earlier say, wait a minute! what are you doing? and you're disrespecting black women at a black conference. the same thing going to georgia attacking kemp. so i think that even when it is strategic, the fact that donald trump is so unhinged, his

delivery destroys whatever their data is showing them, because he doesn't know when and where to say what. >> well, we will see. coming up, as we await kamala harris' announcement of a running mate, the potential first jewish vice president is facing criticism as one of our next guests writes, pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, quote, is the only veep contender subject to an organized campaign to capsize his prospective nomination. we delve into the shapiro backlash next on "morning joe." backlash next on "morng injoe. this looks like an actual farm. it looks cute on the app. [farm animal sounds] ♪♪ meanwhile, at a vrbo... when other vacation rentals aren't what they're cracked up to be,

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israel was violently attacked on october 7th. i've watched an hour of footage from that day. it was horrific and israel has a right to defend itself. the way this has been conducted in gaza, i have serious concerns. >> there is a lot of nuance. i'm someone, for example, like

the president, who supports a two-state solution. i personally believe benjamin netanyahu is one of the worst leaders of all time and has steered israel in a wrong direction. >> when jewish students are telling us they feel unsafe, we need to believe them. and i do believe them. so i think creating a space where political dissent or political rallying can happen is one thing, intimidation on another is another. and i think these college campuses have to figure out how to make that. >> that was three of the names being considered for vice president kamala harris' running mate, expressing varying levels of support for israel and jewish students here in the united states. despite that, only one of them, pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, is facing major criticism for allegedly supporting israel too much. he's also the only jewish person on the vp short list. joining us now, ceo of the antidefamation league, jonathan

greenblack, and staff writer at the atlantic, ier rosenberg, who asks, "who's afraid of josh shapiro." and you write in part, the genocide josh campaign is not about applying a single standard on palestine to all vp contenders, it's about applying them to one person, who just so happens to be the only jew on the short list. and to make matters more absurd, shapiro's positions on israel, as we just saw, don't come close to fitting the epithet. if you could go deeper into the problem you're presenting here. >> sure. thank you, mika. >> what i want to make clear is, of course, it's the right of every citizen to advocate on issues that matter to them. and people are critical of america's foreign policy, they should advocate. we have the very establishment in this country, which as you know, off pledge. you say, i want to see candidates who will support the new deal, or say they won't

raise taxes, or will do "x," "y," and "z" on israel. and now you can say, who supports my pledge, who doesn't? but with josh shapiro, we're seeing a personalized national campaign against someone they're calling genocide josh and against none of the other non-jewish vp short list contenders. and that's very strange, guinn that his views are all very similar to the other non-jewish contenders on israel, who are all moderates and have similar views on israel, or the only candidate who has publicly condemned netanyahu, not just among the vp contenders, but president biden and kamala harris himself. it would be quite a thing with someone to run a candidate with those kind of statements about the prime minister, and yet the conversation is kind of reversed. and i think there's something weird about that. >> well, yeah, there is. and for certain people, it's anti-semitism. jonathan, you just saw josh

shapiro there saying, benjamin netanyahu is the worst prime minister in israel's history. i don't think i've heard anybody else -- i haven't heard j.d. vance say it or donald trump say it or kamala harris say it. i don't know that tim walz has said it. and i don't know that mark kelly has come out and been that far out there. >> how clear can he be? >> and for some reason -- you can walk through that door i just opened up -- and yet for some reason, josh shapiro is offensive to people who think he's too close to israel, well, because, let's just say it right here, he's a jew. >> yeah. >> he's a jew. he's a jew who lights shabot candles every friday night, a jew who went to day school, a jew who's proud to be who he is,

as he should be, because this is america. but you're right to point it out. you really put your finger on it, joe. the idea that this guy, who has a stronger position criticizing bibi netanyahu, than maybe bernie sanders, is somehow unpalatable to these people. it is rank anti-semitism. and let's just put this in context, joe. the jewish people are dealing with the most historic rise that we've seen in decades and decades. the numbers are up, as we've talked about on your show many times. nearly 900% in the last ten years and we've seen anti-semitism normalized. i saw a commentator on another network, when asked about josh shapiro, her first response was, he'll have to answer for the suffering of the people in palestine. what?! because he's jewish, he has to answer for that? the vice president, kamala harris, will make her decision on the basis of his bipartisan

appeal, his political charisma, the electoral votes, as steve was pointing out in the last segment. there are a bunch of different reasons and a lot of very good candidates. but for groups like the dsa, who are not even democrats, or uncommitted, who say they would rather see trump get elected to launch this add homonen attack campaign against josh shapiro is despicable. look, i run an ngo -- i'm not endorsing anybody here, but i'll call this what it is. it's anti-semitic and it's wrong and i hope the vice president has the courage, as i think she does, do what she thinks is right, not what fringe activists are telling her that we all know is so wrong. >> jonathan, we talk often about what has to happen in terms of uniting communities that face discrimination. most people that are racist or anti-semitic are viewed as anti-semitic or racist. it doesn't mean we have to

agree. you and i don't agree on everything. but we talk, but when you see a blatant double standard like this, when you see a guy like josh shapiro, i may have disagreed with some of the things he did as attorney general. the national action network chapter did, but when he comes out strongly against netanyahu and other things, you have to say, are people playing into this combined racist, we can't have a black woman and a jew? are we not in 2024? i think that we have the right to say, we can disagree on certain things. but the same josh shapiro i may have disagreed with as attorney general was an early supporter of barack obama. let's tell the whole story. >> that's a good point. president obama faced criticism and it was a bit of a whisper campaign, because he was black, then it was a shouting match. on the other side, mitt romney faced criticism because of his

mormon faith and then it was a shouting match. the campaign being launched against josh shapiro, it started as a whisper campaign, and now it's a shouting match. it's coming from the fringe. it's being pushed by people who want prejudice to be one of the terms and i think it's wrong. you shouldn't go after j.d. vance because his wife is of south asian dissent, you shouldn't go after the president because she's of black and south asian dissent, and you shouldn't go after josh shapiro because she's jewish. it's wrong. >> so you've been chronicling the disturbing sense of this. but are we because of the news seeing this be potentially more front and center going forward? the world is bracing for potentially escalated violence in the middle east. there's still no gaza cease-fire deal. there's expected to be protests at the chicago convention. this is a story line that likely isn't going anywhere and shows sadly where we are as a nation. >> it's very hard to make predictions a tbt future of

american elections and the middle east and anyone who tries to will end up like me looking like a total fool. but as you say, these issues aren't going away. in a certain sense, i think they are attached to the american character. we should be able to have debates on vice presidential contenders on the merits of policy stances, and there are plenty, like others. and it should not be based on identity characteristics and stereotypes, when people suggest someone like josh shapiro is more loyal to his own kind or to jews, just like bigots do the same, she's more loyal to muslim countries, or as they did to catholics in this country, when he said, we couldn't have a catholic president. >> the atlantic's rosenberg, thank you very much for coming on this morning, and ceo of the antidefamation league, jonathan greenblatt, thank you, as well. we appreciate it. and coming up, we're following the news out of florida, where

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45 past the hour. hurricane debby is slamming florida's big ben coast this morning. the category 1 storm made landfall near steinhatchee around 7:00 a.m. eastern. officials are warning of life-threatening storm surges across the state and major flooding across the southeast. already more than 300,000 florida residents are without power. for the very latest, let's bring in meteorologist bill karins. where's it going? >> it's going to head up the east coast, but take its sweet time. debby has weakened to a category 1. it peaked at 85, now the slow weakening in terms of the wind.

the wind is what knocks down the trees and makes everyone lose power. the wind drives the water into the west coast of florida. we had a 6-foot storm surge up around cedar key and it happened around low tide. if that happened at high tide, the water levels would be 2 to 3 feet higher than what you're seeing in these pictures. if that sense, you're a little bit more fortunate. the landfall was about steinhatchee. the heaviest rains are going to shift up into georgia. our concerns are going to shift up into areas like brunswick, savannah, charleston, myrtle beach, eventually even into north carolina. you can see the black line shows you where the storm has been. we have a tornado watch until 4:00 p.m. especially central florida, that i-4 corridor. tampa, right through the disney universal complex, heading into the orlando area, daytona beach, those are the areas of concern. there's interstate 10. you can see the really heavy stuff. we're losing power around day, florida, around one of those areas, lake city. we have flash flood warnings for almost all of the west coast of florida for that storm surge and

the heavy rain bands that are with it. current wind gusts, when you get 40 to 50 miles per hour, that's when you get isolated power outages. here's the problem. this is tuesday. this is wednesday off the coast. then it just wiggles itself here, south of south carolina. this is saturday. this is about six days from now, only in raleigh. and that's going to lead to very impressive rainfall totals. mika, someone has the chance of getting 2.5 feet of rain. i don't care where that happens in the world, that is going to be a big problem. >> what?! >> yes. >> bill karins, thank you very much. we'll talk to you again soon. and we'll stay on this. and still ahead on "morning joe," a four-part docuseries takes a deep look at a century of the black experience in hollywood. the director and executive producer of "hollywood black" joins us next on "morning joe." joins us next on "morning joe. we make the most comfortable sock in the history of feet

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. i know one when i see one. >> this movie was lost. >> yeah. >> and here you get the truth of >> i love it. that was part of the four-part series, "hollywood black." the series shares personal stories from actors, writers, directors, and producers who fought to make their mark in the industry both on and off the screen. joining us now, the director and executive producer of "hollywood

black," justin sivian. thanks so much for coming on the show. >> thank you. my pleasure. >> tell us more about it and explain "i know one when i see one." >> we were trying to kind of define what is this thing called black film because there's tension around that. like are we really meant to be thought of something as separate from cinema? i don't think so. what i have come to is what defines a black film is the audience. that's the fabric of our lives. i think that's what i would say when i say "i know it when i see it." >> one of the things, justin, i thought about when i saw it what was real on the film that you had done is how we've evolved in the country. >> yes, yeah. >> to where now you can take for granted going to see a black film no matter who you are. >> that's right. >> i'm old enough to remember,

oh, there's a black on tv, and we'd all run to watch a guy on tv. and then go to a movie, you went to cheer on black. you dealt with the evolution of how society was. >> to me that's central to understanding where we are right now. one thing that i felt was anger actually as i was discovering these films because especially if, you know, we're talking about "cabin in the sky" and "gone with the wind." some of it is locked in the past and they say, oh, that's offensive and it represents america at a certain time. listen, it represents america right now. looking back in those movies and seeing what the actors and directors had to contend with, for me it gave me so much hope for the present. like if they could walk through those doors, i can sit on their shoulders. i can deal with what i've got to

deal with. >> let's look and the history and look at some of the pivotal players. you know, we always talk about for baseball, jackie robinson, civil rights, martin luther king jr. television, "cosby." whether it was "fat albert" we grew up with as kids or "the cosby show," which was the first time you were looking at a show and going, oh, wait, for middle-class white people, they're like, oh, wait, they live the same lives as we do. it was a trend-setting moment regardless of bill cosby's history before, during, or after. i'm wondering here, what was that moment in film? was it sidney poitier, "guess who's coming to dinner?" what was the moment in black cinema where there was somebody like a jackie robinson that pierced white america's

consciousness 1234. >> in terms of piercing white america's consciousness, that i don't know. i think we're talking about sidney poitier. for me, i've got to talk about oscar deshow. it was the beginning of independence cinema black or white. what it happened is "birth of a nation kwtsds came out, which, you know, is heralded as cinema. but "birth of a nation" was such a racist move, it got people so riled up, it caused what was called the red summer where black people were hung and lynched across the nation. looking at the power of cinema, oscar deshow before any of us could imagine this being possible, went door to door, raised money, made a response film called "within our gates" and basically went on on to create an alternate black

hollywood that went on for many, more years. >> you mention the films. patty mcdaniel in particular, going back and revisiting her journey, which is just so incredible, she had to have special permission to go to her own oscars. >> you're really struck by these moments where somebody is being both honored, finally, they've pierced the white consciousness, but it's also degrading. she's there. patty mcdaniels to receive that groundbreaking moment has to sit all the way in the back and come through the kitchen, and it's like you're made to feel we're doing you this one little favor. and when that happened, she had black people against her because she was playing a very stereotypical role. if you watch her in this movie, what she's also doing is stretching at the edges of that

caricature. she actually is holding her own in these scenes, and if it wasn't for mcdaniel winning that oscar and having that moment, we wouldn't actually have lena horne success. we don't think of those things as connected. but she was able to reach out to lena and give her hollywood vice. even though it seemed like they were at loggerheads, they were actually friends. >> you could see patty mcdaniel, almost like sarcasm, i'm playing a role, but this is not who i am. especially blacks, we could sense that, that she was not really mandy. she was in that position of being. >> it goes all the way back to burt williams, the first black superstar in america. again, black folks don't really dissect him because he was a black-faced performer. he was doing the same thing. taking what society saw him as, but signifying to us it was a

whole different set of realities. >> and we got it. >> that's right. it made me feel like whatever i'm going through today as a black 234ri78maker, it's nothing, nothing compared to what these people went through. >> you're quite a man. the four-part series "hollywood black" begins on sunday. executive producer justin semien. thanks so much for joining us. thanks for coming on. awesome for sure. that does it for us this morning. we'll see you tomorrow morning. aniqab rah picks up the coverage right now. >> right now on ana cabrera, global news, the stocks taking a dive, the selloff over fears of a recession in the u.s. what it means for your finances. plus, hurricane debby making landfall in florida, bring a massive amount of rainfall and a potential storm