project 2025 proposes to blow this up exponentially. to make it much harder. we have very limited protections in terms of a social safety net for american families . some of the things we have our tax incentives for families. but what project 2025 proposes to do, is to make these available only to certain kinds of families and eliminate all other kinds of subsidies, limited subsidies we have for american families generally. that means that most of the work of family care will fall to the family itself and more particularly, usually to women in heterosexual families. and again, they are not even thinking about same-sex families or nontraditional families. those don't exist for these purposes. >> it is always great to see you. melissa murray is professor of law at nyu and cohost of the strict scrutiny podcast. coming up on another hour of velshi, we takes of the first week of the full democratic ticket lodge and why donald trump can't land a line of attack or a nickname for kamala harris or tim walz. i will sit down with not one

but two pulitzer prize winners, kaitlyn dickerson and lindsay addario to talk about their work on one of the most crucial and misunderstood wedge issues of the campaign. another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. >> ♪ ♪ >> good morning, it's august 11th, 86 days until the election. five days since walz -- they transform the presidential race and galvanize the democratic base. more than 12,000 people packed into an arena last night in las vegas to hear from the democratic nominee and her running mate, and that's just the number of people who are actually able to get into the rally. about 4000 others were turned away after local law enforcement closed off the venue early because people are getting sick by waiting outside in the 109 degree heat.

nevada was the fifth and final stop of the harris-walz first set of campaign rallies together. she had chosen walz to be her running mate a total of five days ago, total of 60,000 supporters have attended their rallies across five of the six most important swing states in this election cycle. the pair have parted ways for the time being. walz is back in minnesota, and joining nancy pelosi today is harris for another major fundraiser that was at another $12 million to her campaign coffers. this is been a tremendous success that lifted many democrats' spirits ahead of the national convention that's in chicago next week. it really are one person in particular, donald trump, who is desperate to stop her rapid rise in the presidential race. for the better part of the past month, he's been trying and mo failing to employ an effective strategy to blunt her momentum, and if you pay any attention at

all to his social media post, and you are excused if you don't, or public remarks lately, you can see him testing out different tactics and attack lines and even dumb nicknames for kamala harris. recently, trump and his allies e have latched onto a new approach, depicting harris and walz as too extreme to lead the country. they call them dangerously liberal. he's referred to the pair as comrade walz and comrade harris, insinuating they have -- that harris is a radical ad left lunatic. these attacks have ramped up over the last week after walz join the democratic ticket. it's actually less of a direct criticism of harris' record and more -- to the progressive policy that walz champion and recently signed into law in minnesota. after democrats captured control of both the aw governorship and both chambers of the state legislature following the 2022 elections , lawmakers proceeded to enact anm ambitious set of bills that ti

sought to help families and help workers and slow the lp effects of climate change. some of the policies the me democrats passed as part of that set of bills include providing free meals to students. providing free college at some of the state's public universities for students that come from families with income under $80,000. providing paid sick leave, paid maternity leave, and paid rn medical leave. a child tax credit, one of the largest in the nation, and set of policies to ship the state away from fossil fuels. and he also took action to help minnesota establish a public option in the future to allow all residents to buy into the state's healthcare program. minnesota has also enacted some of the strongest protections for reproductive rights in anywhere in the country. it's subsidize the cost of electric vehicles. none of these things are radical. they are not even particularly leftist. many developed nations have already enacted these same policies because they are sensible. they ease the burdens that many families of working-class

people experience on a daily basis. america is actually the one is l out of step with many countries my not already having many of these policies in place. es in fact, some of these policies are popular across partisan lines. most of them are. -- bernie sanders recently released this -- data for progress that the majority of ss likely voters in six swing states, regardless of their party affiliation, said that they support re-establishing the child tax credit. many of these policies are popular similar recently because they support the people of the most need of the kind of health of these programs provide. joining me now is zachary. o he's a columnist at -- and he's also the author of the book the price of peace, money, democracy, and the life of john maynard keynes. zachary, good to see you. ar thank you for being with us. >> thanks so much for having me. >> the argument that i'm trying to develop here is that a lot of other countries that have --

or conservative -- because they make economic sense. -- they bring people into the workforce. we have a world in which we are struggling with enough workers so if you give people maternity and put trinity -- paternity benefits, it will cause them to stay in the for us and not out of the workforce. they are just by no means radical. >> i think that is right, and if you look through the type of spending that we have seen over the past four years, really pa even going back into the trump administration, i would expect that the harris and walz ticket to be pursuing some similar policies and they are policies attended pass with a lot of bipartisan support. joe biden's major spending packages include an infrastructure package that was negotiated with mitt romney and joe manchin, his big electric vehicle subsidies were passed

with joe manchin subsidizing the domestic manufacturing of semiconductors and computer chips was a bipartisan arrangement. there are large dollar amounts attached to these programs. us because we live in a very large economy and it takes a lot of money to do anything significant and, you know, if we look at the dollar amounts on things and compare them to the dollar amounts on policies for the 1980s, sure, they are larger today, but we are bigger country, we have bigger issues to tackle. >> i wonder, though, and you just brought that up, i am wondering if looking at the dollar amounts is not the best way to do this, but looking at them as returns on investment. i was talking to bernie sanders in the last hour, something people want because it is just. people think you should have medicare for all because it's the right. i'm one of those people. i agree with that. but the evidence in other countries demonstrates that universal insurance or

universal coverage for healthcare gives you better outcomes for less expenditure. >> a lot of the stuff just works. i mean if you uflook at the mos quote unquote, radical thing that the biden administration did with its covid relief spending very early in the biden administration, they expanded the child tax credit to about $3600 per child for children under six. $1600 a year. it just more money for working families to help support the kids. it's a really popular policy 's for pretty transparently obvious reasons. i don't think it codes is a particularly left-wing or right- wing idea. i think most politicians that in you can see in the trump administration trying to pivot towards the stuff because they a recognize the kind of only tax i cuts for the rich agenda -- not nearly as popular. people like j.d. vance are now talking about the child tax credit like it something they invented. when, in fact, i think it's just a sensible bipartisan ideaa that has a lot of support.

>> that's an interesting point because in a lot of other countries that they constantly raid the high and -- these are not things that are nearly as controversial in other countries. you can have right and left wing policies on a lot of things but people like education, public education, to be free or subsidized. they like healthcare to be free or subsidized. they like childcare to be a e real thing. they like paternity and paternity leave -- maternity leave but in places like canada, six months paid and another six months unpaid but your job is protected. these are just sort of solid policies that are not nearly as controversial. is it the dollar amount or something else that makes it controversial in america? >> it's hard to really say. i mean if you go to other countries, you will find that even the businesses in these other countries tend to support these large supports for workers and their families

because it just takes a set of considerations off of the desks of the business managers. you don't have to worry about what kind of healthcare relief policy they are offering, it's just part of the national program and they don't have to compete with each other to mp figure out or to attract workers in this way. the united states has had a different approach to its social safety net for a long time. it is much more piecemeal oriented. a lot of it runs through the state so in different states e you have more or less generous benefits. we saw this with obamacare. there's a lot of states that didn't expand medicaid under obamacare. it's much more pleasant to liveo in the states that did. and not just for the people who receive medicaid. what you get when you have a more expensive social safety net like this is a more robust economy and people who are able

to keep doing things like spend money or keep other businesses moving when they lose their jobs. you know, i think what we have seen over the last few years is a willingness to embrace these types of ideas in moments of crisis. right after the 2008 mofinancia crash and particularly after the covid crash in 2020, a lot of policies were experimented with in the united states that were very, very popular. i think some of the economic malaise that people registered in 2021-2022 was watching those popular policies phaseout. it would be really great to just make those things permanent and some of those ideas are ideas that tim walz has experiment with in minnesota, particularly the expanded child tax credit. >> good to talk with you, zachary. thank you for bringing your wi expertise to us. zachary carter is a columnist for slate. he is the author of the important book the price of peace: money, democracy, and the life of john maynard keynes. still ahead, the war join d, ukraine has literally hit uncharted territory. they are fighting inside russia in what is ukraine's deepest ha raid since the war began in 2022. plus , after dave egger's book was banned from classrooms

-- and doesn't need to be 't destroyed, he made it his personal mission to try and stop all literary censorship. plus, a certain canadian pop icon is not happy about donald trump using -- near far, frankly, wherever you are, donald trump, lay off celine dion's tunes. dion's tunes. well always discd your biggest gushes with up to zero leaks and odor. so you're not just dry. you're laugh until you cry dry. we've got you, always. always discreet.

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only xfinity gives you the most powerful mobile wifi network, with speeds up to a gig in millions of locations. and right now, xfinity internet customers can buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. this election season continues to surprise me and let me tell you, i did not have a beef between donald trump and canada's darling, celine dion on my 2024 bingo card. on friday, before donald trump took the stage, the crowd was treated to a clip of celine dion singing her hit song my heart will go on for the movie titanic. >> ♪ near, far, wherever you are, i believe that the heart

will go on ♪ ♪ >> trying to figure out what vibe they were going for there. dj is not the first word that comes to mind when people think of me, but playing a ballot from a movie about a literal shipwreck, a tragedy of epic proportions, maybe isn't the way to get a came praying crowd going. celine dion thought so too. not only did she review -- rebuke trumper using her song without permission -- saying her team chemical, became aware of the unauthorized usage of the video, recording musical performance and likeness of celine dion singing my heart will go on at a donald trump, j.d. vance campaign rally in montana in no way is this use authorized and celine dion does not endorse this or any similar use and, really, that song? celine dion has never been a huge fan of trump.

when she was it is when he was elected, she was reportedly posed to perform at his inauguration. she declined, and, yes, it's all coming back to me now. do you think donald trump would have made room for j.d. vance on the floating wooden door that saved arose from an icy death? my guess is no. no. provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. what will you do when the power goes out? power outages can be unpredictable and inconvenient, but with a generac home standby generator, your life goes on uninterrupted. because when your generac detects a power outage, it automatically powers up, giving your family the security and peace of mind they deserve. we don't have to worry about whether we lose power or not. if the utility company does not come through, our generac does. after the hurricane happened, we just want to be prepared for anything.

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they launched a surprise attack that came out six miles outside of russia in tuesday. this is the deepest raid inside russia since the full-scale war began in february of 2022. and moscow confirmed today that ukrainian units had russian troops and equipment 20 miles into russia. for day now, let me put's forces have struggled to stop this incursion, which has upended this status quo. attacks are happening here, which is a border city in the region. this video, posted by ukrainian armed forces on telegram has been verified by nbc news, as been having been taken recently in a russian village in the area. it shows ukrainian troops celebrating and lifting ukrainian flag on to a building in russian territory. this video, shared by russian state media with the associated press shows russian evacuees seeking aid in shelter -- and shelter. which is even deeper into -- the photo on the left was taking in july. -- after it was hit by ukrainian forces. today, for the first time since this incursion into russia began, president zelenskyy

acknowledged on his official telegram account that his forces were, in fact, fighting in russia, and within ukraine, the war still rages on. i russian strike on a village outside of kyiv killed -- that ukrainian forces believe the russians used a north korean missile in this attack. join me now is senior editor at bloomberg. bobby, this is a different thing altogether. -- land territory since world war ii. >> this is a huge, huge deal, and particularly for a president, a leader of russia who prides himself and talks constantly about the territorial integrity. not since the second world war has russian territory been infiltrated in this way. and kursk, is in particular symbolic, all sorts of historic important moments in russia's duration of itself taking place

in kursk. this is not just innovation into russia. this is an invasion into the psyche of russia. it's self of itself. >> that's the more important part. it's not that it's militarily all that important, it's that this is a real hit to the guy who thought he was going to take ukraine in a week. >> he thought he was going to take it in three or four days. that's not going very well. the fact that the russian government is having to acknowledge this and show its own people that it has lost territory to what it had dismissed as just, you know, ragtag military forces is a huge blow. now it's also, by the way, a

rebuke of all those in this country and in the west in general that have spent so much of the past two years trying to restrain the ukrainians. persuade the ukrainians, you can't win this war. you can't really make any gains against russia. you have to compromise. you have to give up your territory. all those people from both sides of the aisle of this country and from the western generals making that argument the ukrainians, they have to do some reassessment. >> i want to remind you we been surprised by the ukrainian resolved and military since the beginning of this war. let's switch to the other side of the world, venezuela, the opposition party saying that the election was not valid. collected tallies, voting tallies from about 80% of the precincts and submitted them and it seemed to indicate that, perhaps, maduro had not won the election. he will not release official tallies. now we have a standoff in venezuela and it's pretty bad. >> it is pretty bad. the government has cracked down on the opposition, the senior leadership has gone into hiding. 2000, maybe more people have been swept up in the arrests. he's using some very brutal language thing that this time there will be no holding back, which is very ominous. the u.s. is sort of basically saying that we don't recognize these results, to go, but the real power play is going to be the

south american, the latin american countries. mexico, colombia, brazil. the foreign ministers are meeting -- today from venezuela and then on wednesday, the president's of these country are meant to me. they are very significantly, although they come from more or less the same political spectrum, they are not recognizing the results, which is a bad sign. the people he had counted on to at least stay neutral are saying to him we can't just sit on the sidelines here. you have got to do more. the united states government has been trying to negotiate a deal -- >> right. they gave maduro amnesty or perhaps asylum. >> and today, the government of panama is up and said we can give him shelter. him and his family in panama, if he gives up power peacefully. it seems like the u.s. is

allowing, correctly, in my opinion, the latin american countries to take the lead on this. it seems like the latin american countries gingerly, perhaps, are beginning to turn up the pressure. he is desperate, he is corner, and we already know from the history of that country and the general, the authoritarian dictators, when they are quartered, can be very unpredictable, but the opposition has just a semblance of hope. >> give me a quick primer of what's going on in bangladesh. >> oh boy. so you had a prime minister who is rolling 15 consecutive years in total. the economy had done well but large portions of young bangladeshis had been left out of this economic growth. there were strong protests in the early summer, the root -- protest began around the issue of government quotas for people in government jobs and the accusation that the ruling party was basically consolidating those quotas from its own supporters.

then the opposition through its way behind those protests, the expanded, in the end, the military had to tell the prime minister you have to leave. she left, she's in india at the moment, not sure what her next step is. the military, meanwhile, has allowed -- >> the father of micro finance. >> yes. widely respected across the spectrum, a great deal of international -- the interim government. now, here's the next question. does the military allow this government to function? is this government able to rein in the violence, it's been aimed at minorities within bangladesh, hindus and other groups. can the government rein in that violence? restore stability and law and order in the streets? and then does the military allow that government to lead a transition, a quick one, into the restoration of the democratic process. we have seen some parts of this

movie before in bangladesh in 2007, 2008, that when the military took over, it took two years before they allowed the restoration of democracy. hopefully, it will take that long this time. >> bobby ghosh is definitely the guy i want my trivial pursuit global team. thank you so much, my friend. >> a time. still had, after a box full of copies of -- he headed into the eye of the storm to speak with students and teachers in the district.

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may holland is -- called the circle. is the opportunity of a lifetime. she works of the company's open offices, towering glass dining facilities, and with activities like parties, concerts, team bonding exercises. is a dream come true. but before long, mae's time at the circle becomes fraught and strange. the circle, by the author dave eggers -- history, privacy, and democracy. and if i'm telling you about this novel on velshi then you know it's either been banned or challenged. in a new documentary from msnbc films called to be destroyed , edgar's -- agurs -- dave eggers

travels to were several other books have been banned. copies of the books were in mint condition, not even unpack the boxes, and yet they were still be designated to be destroyed. here is a clip. >> i'm here because my book, along with four others was pulled from the shelves and at high school libraries and the students that were assigned the books were no longer allowed to read them. >> we decided that many seniors that were supposed be reading them can come to these books and get them for free. >> high schoolers, especially seniors in high school, they are about to be totally independent people, they are treated as adults in the eyes of the law and they can certainly handle a few passages and a few books that have a little bit of sexual content to them or adult content. >> what would you say to board

members that are initiating these bands, specifically on dave's book. what would you say to them? >> the first thing i would say is you should read the book all the way through from beginning to end and possibly read all of these books all the way through and then i encourage them to talk to these kids. these books are changing their lives. michael& for a second. these books are changing their lives. to be destroyed, which airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc follows edgar's stories and his personal fight against book banning, but -- in the united states in recent years and its the same story for the young readers who no longer have access to important stories. another book that was banned by the same south dakota school district is perks of being a wallflower. i interviewed stephen for the velshi banned book club last year. he received a letter from a reader that summed up exactly why books like his are so important. he was a young reader. he told me about it on this program in december. >> i feel like a treat everyone because i plan on killing myself today. i was so ready to swallow the pills and just let my heart give out but reading the book gave me a reason to not kill myself. it made me think about everything. my fervor part was the last

page about being alive in the tunnel. it made me realize that there was a goal for me. i'd always gone through life as if i were sleeping, but my goal is to find that moment where i feel like i am actually living. so really, what i'm trying to say is thank you for creating such a wonderful book. thank you for giving me a reason and a goal to keep going. if i had not read your book in one night i would be cold and dead right now. i write this because i'm definite about what i'm saying. >> that right there is exactly why books like these need to be read and not destroyed. that is why we have the velshi banned book club. embassy films -- msnbc films presents to be destroyed, from trevor noah, not:00 p.m. eastern. you don't want to be messing with. -- missing this. we will be right back. i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired.

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we march further down by the side of the river through thickets of hollow bamboos am

rambles, being also very weak from want of food, but providence suffered us not to perish, the hunger and weariness had brought us even to death's door. this is an excerpt from a 1679 account from the welsh explorer lionel wafers' attempt to craft -- cross the darien gap, the narrow isthmus that next -- that has been known since the earliest accounts as deadly and nearly impassable. an article from lonely planet magazine from the year 2000 covered hikes in central america, but when it came to the darien gap, it told that most adventurous readers, don't even think about it. for years, migrants traveled north using different routes, either charter planes or boats or other less dangerous highways. but when migration reached a then record high from 2015, the

united states put pressure on south and central american countries to rein in and deter migrations north to close popular roots, to deny people jesus. but migration didn't stop. it simply change and push people toward riskier routes. the darien gap used to be used by cartels, primarily to smuggle drugs and weapons, but today, it's a different story. the roughly 70 mile stretch of thick jungle have become a key part of the journey for millions of people who are attempting to migrate north. the united states estimates that roughly 800,000 people may attempt to cross the darien gap this year alone. that's up about 50% from last year's number and the fastest growing demographic showing up to make the deadly journey our children under the age of five. the investigative reporter for the atlantic, katelyn dickerson and the wartime border journalist, lynsey addario, visited the darien gap, joining groups of migrants and their voyages. their remarkable story, 70 miles in the darien gap, is the

cover story for next month's issue of the atlantic magazine. dickerson and lynsey addario's report is breathtaking. it depicts the emotional, the financial, and the political toll of migration. families with toddlers past the impassable, navigating both dangerous terrain and the dangerous and corrupt human systems that have formed around migration, including cartels and indigenous communities whose local economies have come to rely on money from migrants. charging them for water, for food, for shelter, even for wi- fi. the foliage closed in from all sides, making the path hard to discern. we stepped over the jaguar tracks and passed both rocks, the deadliest viper coiled around a ranch near our ankles. in a ravine, we saw what looked like the scene of a person's bad fall, a tennis shoe, a skull, and the bones of a leg, a leg without a bandage, with a bandage wrapped around the knee

like a tourniquet. we face the hardest obstacles, a series of rock faces, ropes had been strung across some of them but it's impossible to know which were secure enough to hold onto. oh my god, i can't watch, maria fernanda said when her seven- year-old daughter crossed the rock. she covered her eyes and shouted hold on tight, my princess. when it was an eight-year-old girl named catherine austria's turn, she slipped and fell into the river. her mother, who had been right behind her stood frozen while one of the porters jumped into the water after her. catherine emerged crying but uninjured. we started hiking again almost immediately. no one wanted to contemplate the near miss any longer than they had to. katelyn dickerson writes that in her three trips, she witnessed new bridges and paved roads appear. she saw porters filming videos of migrants asking them to smile and confirm that they were treated well as the room became more established before her eyes. those videos, dickerson says is put out by porters and guides who try to sell the trip across

the jungle. she says the u.n. has tried to counteract those -- but stations and other checkpoints along the way to the darien gap. they warn people of the dangers ahead. they try to persuade them to reconsider. those efforts have been largely ineffective. people come with tunnel vision, like i must get to the united states. -- a united nations -- told me. turning back is not an option. after a quick break, i am joined by both caitlin dickerson and lynsey addario to discuss the harrowing journey north undertaken by millions of migrants that they chronicled firsthand meet the jennifers. jen x. jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal

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okay, before the break, i told you about the absolutely remarkable reporting from the pulitzer prize-winning journalist caitlin dickerson and lynsey addario, recently traveled to one of the most dangerous places on earth across a 70 mile stretch of jungle that connects panama to columbia. is known as the darien gap. the reporting is featured in the atlantic. -- of the magazine, joining me now are the incredible caitlin dickerson and invest get a reporter and feature writer for the atlantic in lynsey addario, a photojournalist has been covering conflicts, humanitarian crisis, and limits issue around the middle east and africa around the world for more than two decades.

welcome to you both. you for your remarkable reporting. lynsey, i want to start with you and put this photograph up here. we were talking about the treacherous nature of the physical treachery of this track. i want to ask about this photo. it's one of the many difficult parts of this track. you can see people traversing a slippery rock wall above a river. there's a lot of really dangerous parts of this track. we talked about paved roads and bridges but there's a lot of this, too >> to be honest, there weren't paved roads where we crossed. that came later in the journey. but that particular moment is where she described a little girl falling into the river and it was, i couldn't believe myself. i'm the seasoned war correspondent and i could not believe that children were making this journey, literally scaling wet boulders, trying to hold on. kids, toddlers. from two years old to baby's strap to their parents. it was terrifying. >> i want to play video for the

-- of a nine-year-old boy from vietnam. these people are from all over the world were making the stern. the video was taken by his mother about a month before the two of them attempted to cross the darien gap. you will see him on the phone. he's using a language learning app, dual lingo, because he is getting ready to move to the united states. let's watch this. >> yes, coffee with milk, please. >> coffee with milk. >> yes, coffee with milk, please. >> please. >> caitlin, tell me a little more about con and his mother. >> so con and his mother are typical people moving through the darien gap right now. children are the fastest growing group, 30,000 children cross the darien gap in the

first four months of this month alone and as you pointed out correctly, there are people from all over the world making this journey. one of the reasons i think that their story is especially important, it is obviously harrowing and tragic. khan's death, he was swept away by a flash flood crossing a river just as we did on the same route that we did only a week afterward. his mother never saw him. that was last december. they are an important example because they decided to make this journey after they saw on the internet videos that have been posted by smugglers depicting the darien gap as a journey on a paved road, an easier one, so she felt it seemed doable and decided to make this journey and so i talk in the story about how the determined policies that the united states has pushed kind of in a vacuum as a way to crack down on migration have

headed migrants over to smugglers who are happy to bring along not just people who feel like they need to migrate, but people like -- mom who would've made a different choice if she knew what they were getting into and she has lost her son. >> i want to put a photo up of panamanian soldiers in the darien gap. what is this of? >> this is a camp, a new camp that katelyn and i did not see the first time around, brought up sort of after our first trip and this is one of the rest stops where migrants on their journey are able to stop. they can purchase water and food, rest for however long overnight and then continue on. each rest stop our imperative to people who want to stay alive and who need to rehydrate for people who have run out of food. a lot of the migrants help each other so if people run out of money or if they need something, they help each other. we met a woman there who had

broken her ankle and migrants had carried her to this rest stop and she was literally just sitting there, but was able to stay alive, essentially because this existed. a few days after we went to this place, the panamanian soldier burns this place to the ground in a sort of show of force. which is ridiculous because obviously, they knew about it, but it seemed like they were doing it to show the journalist and show the world that they were fighting against immigration, which i, you know, we found problematic. >> i want to go back to the story of khan and his mother as an example. when we talk about immigration, we talk about the southern border. that's where most people come into the united states, if they are crossing the physical border. your story with lynsey shows

how much more complex this issue is. they are crossing from the southern border. we used to think it was mexicans. is not mexicans these days, but people call from all over the world to south america, work their way up through central america or they start in central america, worth their way up through central america with the intention to eventually reach the united states. there is an entire economy built throughout this thing on the flow of people, gangs, porters, towns that supply them with things that they need, villages that have come to actually economically depend on these migrants coming through. so when you look at a solution to the southern border, you kind of have to, everyone has to read your piece and look at those photographs and really think of this much more holistically. >> i think that is right. we have such a precise focus on the southern border in the united states and look, you have americans on all sides of the aisle, more and more indicating a concern about immigration. they see disorder at the border and they want something that feels like a more organized system. the problem though was only looking at texas and arizona and california is that

you are not seeing where these journeys begin thousands and thousands of miles away from the border with all these intermediaries along the way. migration always includes money, changing hands, but the question is, is it a mutual beneficial relationship where you have a fisherman in a poor community in southern panama making $20 to put some migrants in his fishing vote and drive them up the coast of panama to help them get north of where they're going anyways, or is it an exploitative exchange of funds where you have a cartel moving in and saying okay, well if the government is going to facilitate this movement, i am already moving drugs and weapons so i will go ahead and move people, too, without any regard for whether they actually survive. >> except that the key point that conversation is a guy who stores deep in economics is

making $20 a day. like at that point, all options are open to you because if you can make $30 a day or you can make $100 a day or in america, you can work on a farm and make $150 a day, it changes the entire equation. let's talk about this photo of one of the families you met along the way, lynsey. it shows a man with his kids who, as you both had mentioned, young children on this group. two years old and eight years old. his wife's cousin and her young children. >> correct. we followed them for a bit more than a day, about a day and a half through the journey and, of course, i can only think of my own children. i have a five-year-old and so i have a son who's pretty close in age and he carried him on his shoulders for most of the journey. the second half of the first day was literally an incline about 75 degrees and roots and slippery roots and you know, on either side, a sort of current boss or if he had slipped he could have fallen and he describes a moment where he thought that he was going to lose his son and we have heard stories of people who have slipped and who have lost hold of their children i think for

us, it was really about trying to get the more personal stories, really trying to understand, you know, katelyn did an extraordinary job of interviewing people and understanding why they are making this journey, what exactly they are in search of and how difficult it is. i think, for me, as a photographer, always looking for those moments of emotion and this is a moment where he is so overwhelmed and exhausted and obviously, with us making the journey, we can now understand just how bad it is. >> you have both been such excellent journalist, great friends of the show, but lynsey, you and i have known each other for a long time and you've covered everything in the world. for you to say something is dangerous or look at something was shock, it really saying something because you have truly seen it all. thank you to both of you. it's fantastic too, it's a terrible story, but i'm so glad that you documented it as

carefully and as thoughtfully as you have and i really recommend to all of our viewers, please read all of this stuff and look at those remarkable images. caitlin dickerson, reporter and future writer for the atlanta, lynsey addario, photojournalist. both of them are multiple award- winning and they're both polls or prizewinners. thank you for that and that's it for me for today. thank you for watching. you get me here every saturday and sunday morning from 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 eastern. you can also get velshi as a podcast. you can follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. you can also catch our content on youtube. you can head to msnbc.com/alley -- michael steele is filling in for jen psaki . . the harris-walz ticket continues to draw great numbers and the momentum striving the former guy absolutely nuts.