state forts in federal court step in. not only is it interfering that the legislature put in place and something donald trump talked a lot about, but also the voters right to vote. if there is such a delay that you couldn't send it to congress, all of georgia's voters would be disenfranchised and i don't think the courts will stand for that. >> it's a pretty transparent page in the gop playbook and i'm glad to see you here. you were great explaining it all. >> that >> that is all in on this tuesday night. i am katie phang in for chris hayes. >> usually it's our weekends this is how our weeken >> i enjoyed the show, my friend. nice to see you. have a good evening.

it is tuesday, so i must be talking about, you guessed it, project 2025. digging through this 900-page tome is my work until election day. then there's this other part, cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthiest among us. now, today the progressive think tank, center for american progress, released an analysis of what project 2025's tax plan would actually's look like for america's bank accounts if trump enacted it. the top lines in this thing are amazing. according to the center for american progress project 2025's tax plan would cut taxes for households making more than $10 million a year by an average of $2.4 million a year, which is great news for the hyperwealthy, but what about for the rest of

america? check out this chart. this is a visualization of the added tax burdensu for a middle class -- a married couple with two c children under project 2025's tax plan. under the plan families by that description that make anywhere between $35,000 a year and $170,000 a year would all see their taxes go up. for example,xe a married couple with two kids making a collective $80,000 a year would see nearly $2,000 more in federal taxes a year. as well as the ultra-wealthy getting that sweet tax cut. the same is true for single americans. every american making between $17,000 and $85,000 a year would see their taxes go up. there's a very good reason that donald trump claims to have nothing toim do with project 20 every time he'sro asked about t plan. now, compare the nonsense in here to vice president harris' tax proposal. atar the core of harris' propos

is a continuation of the biden administration's promise that no one making less than $400,000 a year would have their taxes go up at all. that's a key part of harris' tax proposal, but it's not just income taxes that are the key issue t here. we thimport a lot of things in america. here's donald trump's plan for deal with that. >> we're going to have 10% to 20%0% tariffs on foreign countrs that have been ripping us for years. we're going to charge them 10 to 20%. >> that is some knuckleheaded stuff. not only is trump saying he's going to impose a 10% 20% tariff on imports from foreign countries broadly, he says very specifically he willys impose a 60% or higher tariff on all imports from china. trump is trying to sell that proposal is just another way he's quote-unquote putting america first. but the center for american progress crunch said the numbers

on that plan, too. and the reality is trump's plan doesn't shift the tax burden to china. anybody understands when you put ars tariff on an imported good,t shifts to the consumer. if he puts a 60% tariff on all goods from china the center calculates that would cost t th average middle class american family a an extra $2,500 a year just to buy the very same goods they're already buying now. if trumpgo chose to go the more extreme route and implemented a 20% tariff on most countries that would costst the average middle class family $3900 a year for exactly the same goods they're buying now.bu whether it's in tax code changes or in tariffs the trump and project 2025 tax plans are essentially major tax cuts for the rich and huge new tax burdens for the middle class and the working poor.

paying more for what you already buy is, in fact, the textbook definition of inflation, something we've been trying mostly successfully, i might s add, to tackle since the pandemic. donald trump wants to basically impose inflation upon us as soon as he gets into office. meanwhile, here are kamala harris' plans to bring down the cost of living for american families. eliminate medical debt for millions of americans, a ban on price gouging for groceries and food, a cap on prescription drug costs, a $25,000 subsidy for first-time home buyers, and a revival of the child tax credit. okay, that last one, the revival of the child tax credit, that is huge. you might remember the expansion of the child tax credit that was passed as part ofdi the america rescue plan in 2021. it cut child poverty in this country byth a whopping 46%. it cut child poverty nearly in half. thoseea expanded tax credits on

lasted for six months, and then they just disappeared. in spite all of the good that they thdid, plunging many amerin children, children in the richest country in the world, back into poverty. harris wants i to not just brin those child tax credits back but actually increase the amount parentsnc get for the first yea of a child's life, which is the most important fromch a formati perspective. now, you may be thinking that all sounds great, but how do we pay for it? that's actually where harris and trump's economicha plans really flip theom script. for decades republicans have soldre themselves as the party fiscal responsibility. with the harris and trump economic plans thehe opposite i in fact the case. according to nonpartisan estimates, harris is proposing spending about $2 thillian for the next decade for her plans whilead raising about $5 trilli in tax revenues. that puts her plan $3 trillion in the green all without raising

the taxes of anyone making less than $400,000 a year. okay, now let's look at the right side of this thing. the trump and project 2025 plans call for about $5 trillion in tax breaks while only raising about $3 trillion in tariffs. the economic term for that is upside down pineapple cake. that means the trump white house would put the country $2 trillion in the red all while cutting the taxes of the ultra-wealthy and increasing thl tax burden on most americans by adding massive tariffs to imported consumer t goods. that is an incredibly stark contrast, and the question now is how much of these two different economic visions for america will reach voters by november? and what economic messages will resonate with them? yesterday the harris campaign launched a new economics focused-ad. it looks like the harris campaign is l betting one part their economic vision that will really connect with voters are harris' plans on housing. >> most of my childhood we were

renters. my mother saved for well over a decade to buy a home. i was a teen armg when that day finally came, and i can remember so well how excited she was.ci i know what homeownership means. and sadly, right now it is out of reach for far too many american families. during foreclosure crisis i took on f the big banks who exploite people in the housing market. and today corporate land lords buy hundreds of houses and f apartments, then turn them around and renttm them out at extremely high prices. i will fight for a law that crack down on these practices. we will end america's housing shortage by building 3 million homes and rentals. we should be doing everything we can to make it more affordable to buy a home, not less. i'm kamala harris, and i approve this message. >> joining me now is the democratic senatorw tina smithf

minnesota. she's the chair of the senate subcommittee on housing, transportation, and community development, which oversees all federalt, housing and transit programs. senator, good to see you again. thank you for being here. to see you, too. it's great to be with you. there are a lot of things then economy that are transient, you can adjust them with interest rates and do various things including fighting inflation or fixing a recession. housing is an intractable. it's everything. it's an infrastructurein proble it's atu government activity. this is really the thing that i think are lot of people feel hos them back. young people in good jobs who have no likelihood of being able to own a house in america. >> no, that is exactly right. i mean every day americans are trying to figure out how to afford their lives. and one of the biggest issues is can they afford their rent or their mortgage or realizing the american dream of buying their own home? and the reason that we have such a struggle with this is because we have a significant housing

shortage in ours country that started back in foreclosure crisis of 2008 and 2009 when construction just collapsed. and we haven't ever really caught back h up. so what i really admire about what president -- what vice president harris and governor walz have proposed is a common sense practical, very realistic proposal for how we can get at this by boosting housing supply and setting a bold goal as you just laid out of building 3 millionst new apartments and houses over the next five years, and then getting after these corporate landlords that are swooping in andla buying up hom, turning them into rentals, jacking up the prices, not maintaining them veryri well, a having a huge impact on communities. in places like, atlanta, georg, nearly i think, 30, 40% of the homes are being bought up by these big corporations, and that is reducing opportunity for everybody in the community.

they laid out a really good plan. and in r comparison donald trum who is a convicted criminal, was sued for housing discrimination. he didn't dobug about this problem when he was president. >> there's a few problems going on here. when we talk about inflation, a lot of prices have come down, more needha to come down, but wn you add housing to that whether housing unaffordability from a purchase perspective or rate. there's a whole bunch of people i go outwh and tell them inflatn has come down a lot since the si pandemic and they go have you seen my rent? that's one of the areas really a problem. forget there's a lot of people the idea of owning a home is escaping them. this represental issue is very, very serious issue because if you're not a homeowner you're stuck renting and that's really hard if you can't find an affordableleca place. >> if you can't meet supply in order to meet demand, prices going to go up. my my hometown of minneapolis,

minnesota, where they have made zoning changes so it is easier to buildes apartments and build more housing, we actually have seen a lower inflation rate overall because we are getting onwe top of this housing supply problem. but this is something we can do across the country, and that's what vice president harris is laying out in her proposal. >> kind of unbelievable the median price of a single-family home in america, the price of which half of all homes are hilar and half are lower, $495,750 right now. 77% of n united states househol could notte possibly afford to live in the median home in america. >> yep,me that's exactly right. and asct vice president harris s said, the dream of owning your own home is part of the american dream, is part of the way that you can build wealth in this country. and we also know that that dream has not been available to everybody in this country. the long history and legacy of red lining has limited opportunity for so many people,

which is why it's important that wepo have a comprehensive plan like vice president harris has laid out to really get at this and make that dream available to everybody in thisis country. >> one of the interesting things about minnesota is it has done some of these things as you said with housing. it's done it with the child tax credit. it's done it with all these things that we've learned about your stategs in the last few weeks, and it is still a remarkably business-friendly state. the script that if you do those things, businesses will run from your state is absolutely not true in minnesota. >> that's exactly right. and i'll tell you, i travel all over minnesota, of course, all-time. andrs what business people telle is one of the biggest limiting factors that they face is they're trying to recruit talent especially in small towns and rural communities but there's no place for people to live. how are you going to recruit a family to work in your company when they can't find a good place to live? it is very much part of the business strategy in minnesota

to have housing that everybody wants to live in, that is affordable, along with child care and paid family and medical leave, other things that governor walz has accomplished here in minnesota that make this is a very business-friendly strong economy state. >> you-f study housing, so i wa to ask yousi this, this idea of providing people with money for a down payment makes a lot of sense. but in a a housing shortage environment, what do youou makef the criticism that that itself could actually cause more housingd inflation because now you've got a whole lot more people who arele going to buy tt limited supply of housing? >> well,li i mean, truly this i why it's important we have a comprehensive plan. and if you only provided support for down payment assistance, for example, and you didn't get after the fundamental problem of not having enough housing supply, then you'd have a problem. but what i appreciate about their proposal is that it is comprehensive. you've got to get at that root problem of housing supply, and it's complicated. you need to have better tax incentives for private

developers to build housing. you need to create more innovative opportunities for local communities to builde housing that isn't maybe totally built off of the profit motive. you need to do zoning laws so you can build duplexes and triplexes and do that affordably so buildings can actually get built. >> tina smith the democratic scepter from minnesota. we appreciate your time tonight. >> thank you. >> we have a lot to get to tonight a including a totally normal thing for donald trump to do. he's selling pieces of the suit that he wore while debating president joe biden. we're going to try to make it all make sense when we come back. but first the supreme court sent special counsel jack smith back to drawing board about the criminal case fordr the 2020 election, and now the special counsel is back with a brand new criminal indictment of donald trump. the former i justice department official, mary mccord, will be here to explain next. , mary mcce here to explain next

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in early july the conservative majority on the supreme court decided to grant presidents and ex-presidents immunity from criminal prosecution which leaves one big question. could the cases against donald trump proceed? the new indictment refines the special council's original argument in an attempt to put it in compliance with the supreme court's decision. the new document adds language highlighting the personal nach of some of trump's alleged election interference attempts including the use of his twitter account. smith also edits out some of

trump's actions included in the original indictment, actions that occurred in the oval office. and they remove former assist attorney general jeffrey clark as an unindicted coconspiratorter all together. one tg thing that hasn't changed, the charges. so what's different? joining me now is mary mccord and co-host of msnbc "prosecuting donald trump" podcast. mary, good to see you. and i need you to tell me what's different, what's the same, what's happened? >> well, as you were just indicating what the department of justice has done now through special counsel jack smith has really tried to bring this indictment into conformity to what they can glean from the supreme court's decision on immunity. and so they focused on the areas where the supreme court provided some guidance. for example, obviously they got rid of any kind of allegations

involving former president trump's communications with his own justice department or his own executive branch because the supreme court said that's within his constitutional authority, he's absolutely immune for that. but for other areas such as his pressure on vice president pence, his pressure on state legislatures and state legislators, and his statements to the public, they eliminated some things and they added some things. and in particular focused on the fact that the allegations that involve pence involve hemip his role as president of the senate, which is an article i role, which is not an executive branch article ii role to say when he's pressuring mike pence about the certification of the electoral college ballots, he's doing that while mike peps is in a role outside of the executive branch and a role mr. trump at the time had no official responsibility

for. similarly, in other areas they make clear that trump was acting as a candidate, not as a president. for example, in some of his interactions with state legislators and state officials and his getting behind the fraudulent elector scheme. similarly, with his tweets and public statements they've alleged these were done as jow you just indicated in the excerpt in his personal capacity or as a candidate. and they always require -- or they always refer to the january 6th speech on the ellipse a campaign speech and make clear it was privately funded and privately organized. these are all things to try to put them on the side of unofficial acts or rebutting presumptive immunity of official acts as the supreme court outlined. >> so as a former prosecutor and former acting assistant attorney general for national security, talk to me about how this case proceeds and didn't become about endless interpretations of the supreme court's decision about official acts as opposed to the

underlying matter? because i can see donald trump's defense calling -- litigating all of that stuff, whether it was official acts or not because that is ultimately given those charges, their best chance of success. >> yes, you know, ordinarily you'd really kind of take the indictment, which again this time this superseding indictment was returned by a new grand jury, not the same one that had heard evidence. they'd heard it all over, so there was no tapt from the previous grand jury, and you would normally sort of look to those allegations and assertions and sort of accept those, but this is different world because we're talking about immunity of a former president after we have a supreme court decision. we'll have more friday when the parties are supposed to submit their joint proposal to judge chutkan, the district court judge who now has this case back in her court. they are supposed to be proposing next steps, but i think you're right. i think that mr. trump will be trying to argue that he -- that these things, these changes that jack smith made in this new

indictment don't eliminate the problem of official, unofficial, and they will want to litigate. they will want to file legal briefs, et cetera. what they will not want to do, mr. trump's attorneys, is really have evidence on that. and jack smith may say, well frsh for some of these things if he's contesting these, we may need some evidence. >> this thing we're going to hear about on friday, it's called a joint status report. is there some sense that donald trump's team at least agrees that this new set of indictments is cleansed of the things that the supreme court is saying, or we just don't have any insight into that yet? >> i have not yet today heard of any statements coming from trump's legal team or even, frankly, from his campaign, but i haven't looked for any campaign statements. and i would just be surprised based on the way his legal team has litigated all of his other criminal and civil case. i would be surprised if they agreed to very much here. they will probably agree that

things were narrowed, andsail say it was good jack smith eliminated the entire section of the indictment that relies on the pressure of his own department of justice and his own attorney general. but i think they will seek to really argue about some of these other areas. and i think it's likely the judge will first have legal briefing on that before she makes anystitions about whether any kind of factual development through evidence is necessary. >> donald trump has said already the witch hunt is back and whatever it is he talks about. the point he was trying to make is this is against the department of justice's own office of legal counsel direction by virtue of the fact it's within 60 days of voting. we are within 60 day of some people voting. where do you think that goes? again, one is never surprised by trump's team because they pull a lot of things out of a hat, but what do you think of the merits of that conversation? >> well, first of all, this was

an ongoing case. this was not a new action being taken to bring charges for the first time or to take some sort of overt investigating -- investigative step in a case that hasn't even been charged and to do so within 60 days of early voting. and i will say the 60-day rule is not actually a rule. it's a norm, it's a practice. the rule is that you don't ever take any affirmative overt action in an investigation or a prosecution that could -- that it could be perceived to be done to sort of put the thumb on the scale of an election. and so by default that kind of is, you know, a 60-day type of norm. but here this is not the first time trump's been charged with this. this is just a modification of charges that have been out there for well more than a year, so i don't -- of course he's going to say that, but there's really no merit to that. >> mary, good to see you. thank you for joining us and making this a lot clearer to me so i can maybe relate it to

another person. a former acting assistant attorney general for the united states department of justice. she's the co-host of the prosecuting donald trump podcast. >> still to come tonight, totally normal, nothing to see here in the words of donald trump. george conway joins me next. george conway joins me next. y j. s shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention.

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donald trump was off the campaign trail today, but he was quite busy. on truth social he talked about the debate. not the one next month, the one that happened 61 days ago with the former democratic candidate president joe biden. and then there was this. >> purchase 15 or more of my trump digital trading cards, and we'll mail you a beautiful physical trading card. it's really i think quite something. each physical trading card has an authentic piece of my suit that i wore for the presidential debate, and people are calling it the knock out suit. i don't know about that, but that's what they're calling it. so we'll cut out the knock out suit, and you're going to get a piece of it. >> okay. donald trump is selling trading cards of himself, digital ones. they're $99 a piece. if you buy 15 of them for

$1,485, you get a physical one and a piece of his debate suit. while trump was hawking nfts, his campaign named former independent candidate robert f. kennedy and tulsi gabbard to his transition team. george, that's something. pay $1500 for which you can get yourself a piece a few suits and get a piece of a worn suit from the debate. >> it leaves me speechless. >> yeah, not much does that. this one is new to me. >> really i just -- look, that's who he is. he's a scam artist. he's just in it for himself and for the grift. he has no dignity, no honor. he's just -- i mean he's just scamming the public like he has been for years, and that's -- that's donald trump. and i think basically he doesn't

seem to have any idea what to do now in the campaign. he's not running against joe biden anymore. he wishes he were. his own campaign staff wants to mute him between questions during the debate. you know, he's just flailing about, and now he's busy distracting himself from by selling pieces of fabric. i -- i just -- i think this is a great campaign strategy, and i hope he keeps -- >> keep going with that. >> i'm all for it. >> tell me about this rfk and tulsi gabbard getting key role after they endorsed him. not much of a surprise to anybody. what's the technique there because there's a whole bunch of republicans who for the last several years have been supporting anybody who's not donald trump. and obviously with the ascension of kamala harris there was so much more of that at the convention. is this his version of that,

i've got two people identified as democrats now supporting me? because neither tulsi gabbard nor rfk have been associated with the democrats for some time. >> i mean, i guess so. if he thinks it helps to have somebody who is now recently disclosed to have sawed-off the head of a whale and put it on the roof of his car in addition to having tossed a baby bear cub dead body in central park and then having chomped on a roasted dog, i mean if he thinks that's good for his campaign, again, i'm all for 70 more days of this. i have to tell you, i mean literally if you were writing a script -- >> they'd throw you out. >> if you wrote it, they would reject this. no hollywood producer would take this movie, no studio. it's just not -- i'm not even sure i believe what i'm hearing here. >> we were having this discussion about this reworked indictment. jack smith has reworked the indictment because he's trying to be in compliance with what

the supreme court has said about official acts by former presidents or presidents. what do you make of this? anything at all? >> no, i agree with your discussion with mary. they've stream lined the case a bit. they've taken out the things that the supreme court obviously basically threw out, the conversations with the justice department. i think that was wrong, but i don't think they needed it to get a guilty verdict on the charges that they brought. the false elector scheme and the attempt to pressure vice president pence who was not acting in an executive capacity, i mean that's more than sufficient to put him away for a number of years, and i think, you know, ultimately there may be some more satellite litigation going up and down to refine what is inbounds and what is not inbounds. but at the end of the day, those charges, they're going to be -- there's going to be a core set

of allegations that will past muster because they simply do not involve his official acts that as the indictment, the superseding indictment points out, the january 6th rally held on the ellipse was privately funded. it was a campaign action. it wasn't an official act. it -- his exhortations were not official acts. the lying and the submitting of false elector certificates, those were not official acts. those were the acts of a corrupt candidate. and at the end of the day if he's not elected president in november, this case will go to trial and he will be found guilty, and there will be sufficient evidence that is not within the realm of the official immunity created by the supreme court that would suffice to support the jury verdict. >> because citizen trump has some stuff to look forward to on that front. he was sentenced to more than

four years in prison. he said he was remorseful, but he said the election was marred in fraud. the lesson you can say what you want, but you can't actually try to overturn it. in arizona the fake electors are trying to get their charges dismissed against them. in michigan six fake electors who are facing charges have been renominated by the republican party to be presidential electors this year. so in places like michigan and in some cases in places like arizona and in pennsylvania, the republican party is just going down that road that you've been recommending, that this is how you'd like to campaign, knock yourselves out. >> yeah, absolutely. i mean it's just completely self-destructive and completely insane. i mean they're just doubling down on everything that the courts have rejected and that voters have rejected in the mid-terms, and it's just -- i mean it is just -- they're just following donald trump over a cliff, and it's sad to see that happen to the grand ole party,

but maybe some goodwill come out of it someday when there has to be a new party. >> you're one of those people that thinks has to burn to the ground. >> the republican party has rotted to the core. it is just so dysfunctional and so -- it's an anti-american party now. it's a dysfunctional, dilutional, anti-american party. and, you know, we need a solid center right party in this democracy when you have a two-party system in a system that basically equilibrates at two parties because we have first pass the post voting. we need a new party. we need something to take the place of the republican party, which is just steadily rotting and disappearing before our very eyes. i think this is going to be compounded by if trump loses the election, which i hope and expect he will, i mean he's merged the rnc into his

campaign. >> and his family. george, good to see you. george conway a contributor at the atlantic magazine. okay, we've got a lot more to get to tonight including the ongoing cease-fire negotiations end the war in gaza. there have been months of negotiate eggs, but has any real progress been made ini'll talk to ben rhodes, former obama deputy and national security advisor about that next. [dog whining] is your dog telling you progress been made ini'll talk to ben rhodes, former obama deputy and national security advisor about that next. for allergic itch... that veterinarians have trusted for over 15 million dogs... and it starts working in just 4 hours! do not use in dogs with serious infections... may cause worsening of existing parasitic skin infestations... or preexisting cancers... and serious infections. new neoplasias have been observed. do not use in dogs less than 12 months old. ask your vet for apoquel. now available in a tasty chewable. hey folks, chris counahan here with leaffilter, america's largest gutter and gutter protection company.

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over the weekend israel and hezbollah exchanged the heaviest cross border attacks since the war in gaza began stoking fears of a wider regional conflict in the middle east. but by monday both sides had backed off as diplomats in cairo continue their negotiations to end the conflict in gaza, which over the past 10 months as killed more than 40,000 people and injured another 93,000 people. despite multiple rounlds of negotiations mediated by the united states and by other allies in the region, it's not clear whether we're any closer to a peace agreement than we were on this day that you're looking at, three months ago when president biden first announced a multi-pronged proposal that was reportedly backed by israel. according to "the new york times," quote, despite a full board diplomats push from the biden administration, israel and hamas remain far apart on several critical issues, end quote. joining me now is ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor to president obama, co-host of the podcast "pod save the world."

ben, thank you, my friend, for being with us today. i don't know how many times you and have had a conversation that sounds like this over the last several months only to be foiled by the fact that there's not meaningful progress, there are protagonists in this thing including benjamin netanyahu and the new guy who's fully in charges of hamas, yayah simwar disenfranchised to end this war. >> maybe he'll take something short-term, limited in scope in term of how much freedom and movement there is for palestinians and then resume the war after a few weeks. that's the kind of proposal that we hear kind of looking at conversations that netanyahu might be okay with. and simwar won't agree with anything that doesn't completely end the war, and so that's a pretty big distance. and the reality, ali, is that's

been the distance the entire -- >> no, no, you're right. i'm agreeing that has been the distance since we started. there's a little bit -- i guess what's the point at which the cease-fire or the value -- the benefit of the cease-fire and the encouragement of all the allies involved in it outweighs that -- that problem that you've just articulated. >> i think this is a big problem that is bleeding into this policy. first of all, it was described by joe biden as an israeli proposal three months ago. it was never described as an israeli proposal by the israeli prime minister, so there's been something very strange where it's only the united states that has been asserting that this is an israeli proposal. it may be israeli negotiators are open to these formulations, but as long as the prime minister of israel is not, you're going to have a hard time ending the war unless the united states makes a cease-fire and ending war an objective in and

of itself. in other words, we're going to start to use some leverage on israel through our arms provision and our vote at the security council perhaps to try to muscle this and do a cease-fire. i think the other concern i have is that there's so much discussion around the cease-fire and all the drama and the talks that always lead to the same outcome, that the bigger questions of, hey, what happens in gaza, one month, three months, six months from now? who's going to be in charge? are the israelis going to continue to have full security responsibility? how is it going to be rebuilt? these are bigger questions, actually, that get at how you actually end the war, in ways that can meet israel's security concerns and obviously help rebuild and help the palestinians get the kind of dignity and self-determination that kamala harris talked about in her convention speech. those questions have kind of been pushed aside a bit for the drama of the cease-fire negotiations where even if you achieve this cease-fire, you

don't resolve any of the bigger questions. i think at some point there's going to be a step back here. >> you can potentially stop it from getting worse in the immediate future, but gaza needs to be fed and people need to not get polio that is going around. as you have pointed out she is still a member of this administration until -- until she's not, so what leverage -- what space does she have and what motivation does she have to do anything differently than joe biden has? >> i think she doesn't have a ton of space to lay out different policy proposals than the administration that she serves in. i think what shak do and has an incentive to do is to set a different tone, and even in that speech you heard kind of an equal amount of time on the israeli perspective and palestinian perspective, which i think has not always been the case from president biden. you also heard important words like the need to work for

palestinian dignity, that means the ability to not just have the war end but have them not living in the mass poverty and famine conditions they're in. you heard her say self-determination, that means palestinians running their own lives and ultimately running their own states. she gave signals in that speech. there's some other things she might do biden administration has not really enforced existing u.s. law, for instance, that have restrictions on military assistance going to certain military units that have been found to be engaged in potential human rights violation. she could just make statements of the intent and policy around she will enforce the law that is on it books in the united states, which i think fits with obviously her perspective as someone who's very focused on the rule of law. but ultimately i don't think she can lay out a 10-point plan that is far off between where she and joe biden are. she can indicate to people here's the value i'm going to bring to this, here's the priorities i'm going to bring to this, here's the different tone

i might set in the election itself. >> we'll take a quick break and tine our conversation on the other side. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy's plan to end russia's war with ukraine. we're going to talk about what's in that plan and how he expects to get the united states onboard when we come back. expects to get the united states onboard when we come back. to duckduckgo on all your devie

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during a press conference today ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy told reporters the ukrainian military's rapid incursion into russia this month is part of a larger plan to pressure russia into ending its years long war with ukraine. zelenskyy says he will present his plan to president biden next month. back with me is ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor to president barack obama. ben, this is something else. this incursion into the kursk region of russia, first of all, nobody thought this was going to happen. they went in, it was largely undefended. there are ukrainian flags flying in russia. russia has not had a foreign epty on its soil since world war

ii, and they're still not out. the russians have not managed to push the ukrainians back into ukraine. >> yeah, and i think what happened here in the wake of what zelenskyy said today is ukrainians needed to change the game here, flip the script a little bit. they were unable to dislodge the russians who really have dug in along that front line and down into southern ukraine. and so instead of just grinding it out and fighting a war of attrition, which frankly russia has advantages. it has more people and more ability to manufacture the kind of front line arms that are driving that war. they are making this play into russia. and the way in which it interacts with ending the war is everybody i think now accepts there's going to be some negotiated process here. i think even the ukrainian government recognizes it's not going to take back all its military and so therefore they need something to bargain. the incursion basically ignores they want to come to the negotiation table with a better

hand than they had a few months ago. >> one of the things that happened in the last few weeks ukraine is now using those f-16s we spent a few years talking about to shoot down russian missiles and drones. there's been some sense when you're in ukraine the one thing euryalize is while russia has managed to be there without taking over the dwru yanian government and the country, they don't have air superiority over ukraine, and now ukraine has got these f-16s. how big a deal is that? >> anything that reduces the russian capacity to kind of pulverize ukrainians from the air is a huge deal because part of what the russians are doing in this kind of war of atreggs is trying to make the ukrainian state not viable. you know, they're going after its electricity grid, the ability to keep the lights on, the ability to keep the economy functioning. they want to be able to terrorize the ukrainian public across the country. and if the ukrainians can gain more advantage in the air and provide more security, it really

helps secure the viability and sustainability of the ukrainian state through this effort. i mean it also may help them along the front line, too, as well, so i don't think it's going to be an overwhelmingly decisive change. but incrementally it puts them on a stronger footing. >> as far as the u.s. is concerned, how does this end? because there is danger, of course, if republicans are in charge after november that this war ends not in a way people are expecting because donald trump gives vladimir putin a free hand. what can be done between now and november other than campaigning for kamala harris? >> honestly, the most important thing the united states can do between now and november for the ukrainians is for kamala harris to win the election. and that's not a partisan comment. that's an objective piece of analysis. donald trump said once again the other day he'd end this war even before he was inaugurated if he wins. the only way he could possibly do that is cutting off support for ukraine, as he and his vice

president vance have urged and force them to the negotiating table in the weakest possible position. everyone has to wait and see who's going to be the american president, because that's going to shape innegotiation and whether or not ukraine is coming in a strong position. between now and then ukraine is going to want give us some leeway to use more weapons potentially against russia or targets inside russia in places like kursk, give us more air cover, help us secure our air defenses, so there's tactical things between now and november, but the strategic the whole world is going to be watching is who's going to be the next president. >> ben rhodes, former national security advisor to president barack obama. he's co-host of the podcast, pod save the world. that is our show tonight. you can catch me weekends at 10:00 a.m. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is up next. special counsel jack smith september giving up on the federal election interference case against donald trump,

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