so how was that? probably go on, but, you know, this is precious time. >> no. talk to me about what we saw today in that school and whether guns will be a big issue for democrats and whether they should lean into it? >> i think, look, something they've leaned into a long time and somebody public opinion is on their side on. this is unfortunately a really, really depressing and sad and heartbreaking background music to the world we're living in. look, republicans are vulnerable on it. again, a wearying thing to live through turn on news middle of the day and see more news on this. something we're all trying to co-exist with. >> i don't know if it's possible to co-exist with it. tragic and trauma built on top of each other. christine romans and mark leibovich thank you. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york as we come

on the air we're following that developing story out of georgia. a deadly shooting that sent a high school in winder, georgia into lockdown. here's what we know at this hour. at least four people have been killed. at least nine have been injured and at least one suspect is in custody. president joe biden has been briefed on the situation as has vice president kamala harris. winder is a tight-knit community about one hour east of atlanta, georgia and these kids back at school about one month. expecting a briefing from law enforcement in georgia shortly. when it starts we'll bring tu to live. this hour we're following vice president kamala harris on the ground in new hampshire there to address independent voters and roll out her plan to help small business owners in america. as has happened so many times before, what should have been a normal, peaceful day in this country, which should have been an otherwise unremarkable day at

an american school, it was changed in an instant and forever by the epidemic of deadly gun violence. it is our reality. it is a reality of american life. this also is a political reality and a political live wire. an open question that courses through this election season. something vice president harris addressed passion knit lay short time ago. >> our hearts are with all the students, teachers and students on the scene. this is just a senseless tragedy on top of so many senseless tragedies and it's just outrageous that every day in our country in the united states of america that parents have to send their children to school worried about whether or not their child will come home alive. it's senseless. it is -- we've got to stop it. and we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country

once and for all. you know, it doesn't have to be this way. it doesn't have to be this way. so we will continue, of course, to send our prayers and our thoughts to the families and -- all of those affected. including, you know, i'm going off script right now, but, listen. i mean, you know, at the last -- last year i started a college tour and i -- i traveled our country meeting with our young leaders. right? so college-aged young leaders. i did trade schools universities, community colleges but i'll tell you one of the things that i ask every time i went to the auditorium, and it would be filled with these young leaders students, and i'd ask them raise your hand if at any point between kindergarten and 12th grade had you to endure an active shooter drill. and for the young leaders here raising your hand, i'm telling

you, every time, the auditorium packed and almost every hand went up. you know, a lot of us, i'll speak about myself. we had, i grew up in california. earthquake drills, fire drills, but our kids are sitting in a classroom where they should be fulfilling their god-given potential and some part of their big, beautiful brain is concerned about a shooter busting through the door of the classroom. it does not have to be this way! it does not have to be this way. >> we start today with former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi, and also joining us, a pediatrician and senior advisor to every town, and nbc's tom winter will gin us in a few minutes with the latest on the shooting. frank, i -- i dread the sameness of our coverage of these tragedies, because tonight four

families are dealing with the unthinkable. i mean, the unimaginable, but what the vice president said there is also true. all of our kids -- my son since he was 3 years old, has been through active shooter drills. if you don't have school-aged kids, and the, doctor, you can explain these drills as well. i know you have three kids in school. when they're 3 they don't tell them what they're hiding from. make sure a 3 and 4-year-old have be very quiet as the shades are lowered on the door. about 5 or 6 they let the kids in on what they're hiding from. it's different from a fire drill when they leave the school. from 3 years old. of course, by the time they're in middle and high school they know exactly what's going on. that is like in america that is parenting in america. and that is who vice president harris is talking about. but let's -- let's talk about what happened today. frank, what's your understanding

of what transpired? >> we have a very young shooter here. depending on which media report you listen to. it's young. it's going to be shockingly young. with regard to the age of the shooter, some of the students interviewed seemed to know who that was. it's not a question of timing and identification challenges. the police know who this is. he's alive. they're going to be talking with him. they're talking to him right now. i'm certain because of his age they're going to have to deal with parents and have parents present while interviewing a juvenile. we've got four dead, nine wounded. don't know the nature of those wounds or the cause of those wounds, but assume for the sake of argument that they were all shot in some way, shape or form. maybe even a fragment or ricochet hit one of the wounded.

we could be talking about as many as 13 rounds fired by this shooter. we'll find out eventually. where did someone this young get the weapon? can't buy a weapon even in georgia. at this young age. but you can possess it. did they get it from a parent? from a friend? we're going to have all of these questions. how did this person get into the school with the weapon? who knew about it? when? were there threats, warning signs and indicators? but you know the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. we've been doing nothing over and over again and somehow we're hoping that this won't happen anymore, but it's going to keep happening, and kamala harris is right. it doesn't have to be this way. >> annie, think is a high school across the street, like a school complex. across the street from a preschool. so some of the images that have

been on our air today include some very, very, very tiny kids. i want to play the sound of a grandmother of one of the students for you. >> thoroughly sorry for the kids that they had to experience this and the parents who got those phone calls that it was their child. we was with the principal and the principal told him run to the band room. don't look back. just keep running. so -- that's all i know. >> so happy he's okay. >> me, too. >> you said your daughter is with him now? >> yes, his mom. yeah. >> a sigh of relief. >> yes, ma'am. >> what do we understand about this tragedy in this town that took place this morning? >> well, nicolle, thank you for having me. my heart is broken for this community, for every child in that building today for the children whose live was stole

bein this public health crisis of gun violence and i have a pit in my stomach as i do every time i see these headlines. this is a public health crisis and infuriating about it we created this for our children. every child in this country goes to school and sits in a classroom where they should be learning how to read and write and they're also learning how to hide from a bad man with a gun. for far too many in this country the reality grows darker when an active shooter incident happens. this is a public health crisis and we know the solutions. the solutions include common sense gun laws like expanded background checks, secure storage laws so adult gun owners cannot allow access to children to their firearms. and red flag laws. what we lack in this country is elected leaders with the moral courage to pass the laws that the majority of americans know that we need and that the children in this country so desperately need and deserve. we have robbed every child in

this country as a sense of physical and psychological safety in their classrooms. as a mother, it breaks my heart. >> and you're right. i'll pull up the specific numbers, but you've got broad swaths of american whose support gun law safety. bring in my friend and colleague and intelligence correspondent tom winter. what is our understanding of the facts surrounding this tragedy? >> 4:30 p.m. eastern time an update from the local sheriff's office as well as the fbi. assisting in this investigation. anytime there's an investigation of this size the fbi and victims services unit has the ability to provide counsel for these students, to provide assistance in helping them get through this moment of grief, to help gbi and

the local sheriff's office to conduct interviews, organize that and acutely aware of the trauma these kids are going through. talked about a large school complex. young children. high school-aged students. a lot to process and deal with as a result of what happened here today. just several weeks into their school year. so that's the first thing. no indication of any motive at this time. the individual that is in custody and is alive. we don't know whether or not they're talking to police, but that individual's been described to us as a teenager. there is a specific age that is out there that has been reported. right now we're holding off a little on that age, because that information was a little dated when folks we had spoken to were briefed on it, but either way it's going to be on the younger side. that's surprising perhaps to a lot of people how young some of these suspects in these crimes are. it is becoming increasingly not common to those of us that cover the law enforcement community,

because that's exactly what they're seeing. that a number of the cases that they have for individuals who might want to plot or plan out some sort of violent attack for a, you pick 'em roulette wheel of motives is younger and younger and it's younger all the time and more commonly in the teenage and middle teenage years. if that's the average, nicolle, we're smart enough to know some of that involved individuals who are going to be in the low teens. or perhaps not even of teenage yet. so that's certainly a concern going forward for law enforcement and obviously a number of these individuals as we saw with the uvalde shooting and other school shootings possess information on their phones predominantly sometimes laptops or tablets that is very extreme. and all sorts of different components to that. there's all sorts of components of that that also involve pornography. it runs the gamut, really, and

that's the type of information they're going to want to try to figure out. is the fbi who has a unit devoted to this, behavioral analysis unit, police departments across the country trying to come to terms with how do we know when a kid is going to do something like this kid allegedly did today? i think that's going to be a little bit of something that we can perhaps get out of this. it will continue to inform us. to identify these potential individuals. certainly the fact this person is a teenager also raises concerns from a weapons standpoint if a younger teenager, they would not have been of age to lawfully purchase the weapon used to today's shooting. a big question. right? how were they able to get access to this gun? did it come from the home? we've seen that in the past. attempted assassination of donald trump. adam lanza, got that weapon from a parent. we've seen that across a lot of these incidents that oftentimes

these young teenage kids are able to get access to weapons through a relative. that will be looked at as well. that is potentially a crime depending what happened there. sometimes, of course, it is not. all sorts of details. it is not that common that whoever carried out one of these mass shootings is actually alive after the fact. to be questioned by law enforcement and for prosecution to be made. hopefully we'll get more details in the course of this investigation as well. again, with the thought that perhaps there's something that could be done to prevent or at least better identify the kids that could be wanting to do one of these types of attacks, ultimately the fact they have access to these types of weapons is certainly a key component to understanding why we're dealing with this in the first place. >> frank, finding every dispondant and despair written 12 to 18-year-old feels like a needle in a haystake

undertaking. wouldn't it also make sense to make sure that none of them have access to a gun? just weigh in on the holes in the policy portrait that tom winter is reporting reveals. >> you're right. teenage years are filled with angst, depression, anxiety, but if you don't have access to weapons you're less likely to act out violently with a weapon. look, state of georgia. no law requiring securitying of a weapon. no gun locks necessary. so people say, i hope this kid's parents are prosecuted. prosecuted for what? because in the state of georgia, you don't have to secure your weapon from juveniles or from family members. good luck with that. also in georgia, no state red flag law or extreme risk law that would allow family members,

colleagues, law enforcement sew say you look like a threat we're going to temporarily take your weapon and then a due process procedure in place to figure out. nope. not in georgia. another hole there. tom referenced behavioral analysis unit at the fbi. good news. yes. every one of these school shootings is studied every which way from sunday. with know a lot about school shooters. bad news. you don't do well at disseminating that knowledge to the local level where a behavioral assessment team in your school even has one and parent should ask since a lot of people are back to school, ask your principal. do you have a behavioral assessment team, counselors, teachers, assess the scary note, comment made in a hallway? how do you do that? asking where's the family reconciliation center? is it the football field agency we saw today? how does that work? do we have peer counselors?

kids in high school who say, i'll volunteer for training. i know the kid in the back of the cafeteria no one sits with. i'll try to figure that out and report back, and help that kid. what's going on to get to the root of the problem while politicians argue about gun safety? >> annie, this is -- from our friend shannon watts we often turn to on tragic days like today. she posted this. we know it's back to school in america because the shootings have already started. georgia has among the weakest gun laws in america. and then she reminds you in 2022 georgia governor brian kemp "signed permitless carry into law at a gun store surrounded by gun lobbyists. even though law enforcement and more than 70% of georgians opposed that legislation." "today's school shooting is caused by laxed gun laws." i think of the uvalde and

newtown families that spoke at the democratic convention and the fact our politicians speak behind glass. not sure but it looks like there's some fears realized as tom winter mentioned in the attempted assassination of donald trump. but not even the most elite law enforcement agencies charged with protecting the most important people in our political life, people like donald trump, can keep them safe all the time from gun violence. what exactly are we doing? >> great question. georgia has one of the weakest gun law restraints in the country and there is a direct correlation between a state's gun law strength and the firearm injury and mortality rates in that state. we know what the solutions are. we need to start electing leaders who are willing to stand up to the gun lobby, stand up to the nra and the gun industry and pass the laws that the majority of americans want. the good news is, if there is

any good news today, it's that in 60-some odd days we have an election. and we can all choose to bring this issue to the ballot box and we can all choose to vote on this issue, to elect ed whoers who are willing to protect america's children in their classrooms, in their communities, and all of us plagued by this public health crisis of gun violence. every single country, every single developed country in this world is facing a mental health crisis. we have violent video games and violent media. the only thing that makes america differ is the ready access to guns. guns for anyone anywhere anytime. we have a nation whose gun laws are written by the gun lobby and have a gun violence crisis to reflect our current gun laws but we don't have to feel hopeless. we can all vote in november and decide to elect leaders who will take a stand and will write us on this, a correct course, riotous on a correct course and

provide safety any our communities and schools that our children desperately need and deserve. >> tom what is your understanding what updates we'll have at 4:30? >> a lot more about this specific injury we had today. some more information as far as what they've uncovered in this investigation. the fact this individual's alive, i would think at this point based and information from my colleagues that we were just working on while you were speaking, the atf has already gotten to work on the weapon here, and handling ballistic information. at this point we should have more information on the gun, at least at some point in the next 24 hours. i anticipate we'll get more information on this alleged suspect. some information just basic information on who they are. where they came from. what nexus that he may have to the school. some eyewitness reports indicate this individual who's responsible for the shooting was a student. but we don't have that information confirmed by

authorities. not doubting the kids in the classroom, but just given the chaotic nature how these things happen we always like to get a little more information on that. so i do anticipate we'll hear that. really, it's up to the authorities there, but knowing the gbi, they tend to be pretty forward as far as the information they'll put out. here we are six, seven hours into this investigation. we should have a lot of basics at this point, and hopefully get more than the initial briefing we had, which lasted just effort is minutes. i anticipate finally we'll get more about the person behind this today and get more information at least as far as any connection to the school. we talk a lot typically i'm on to talk a lot about the suspect, the victim component of this is huge. their ability to help take care of these kids is going to be very important. hair going to have to go back to school one day. they're going to have to graduate from this high school. they're going to have to deal with where they go to school after this. i mean, you're in the first few

weeks of school. picture yourself a high school senior where you're going to graduate from, launch your life from that point and now might be faced with going to a different school. who are the victims in all of this? and what was their role? so often think of the students. we know from past experience teachers, staff. individuals that work with the students in an extracurricular capacity have a big impact on students' lives. something we'll pay close attention to finding out more information about the shooting and how that will impact those kids as well. hopefully we'll get more information on the sequence of today and what law enforcement learned. according to our understanding surveillance at the school. not a surprise. it's 2024. they information might have been helpful determines who was responsible and some of the thymeline of events today. we'll wait to hear, if we can

get more of that coming up here bottom of the hour. >> yeah. as tom said, frank, a lot of what we know we know from the students themselves. do we have this sound with -- a female student who describes what she heard? and what happened when she started hearing gunshots? can we -- >> i heard gunshots and my teacher told us get in the corner. the -- i ahead police officers. get down. put your hand on your head. it was crazy. and then when they were clearing the building, like the rules. sometimes shooters hide amongst the kids, clearing our room and busted the door and had an ak on us, telling us you put your hands in the air, it was really crazy. just never know what's going to happen. >> what was going through your head when all of that happened? >> i thought i would die and would go to the bathroom right before it happened and so glad i didn't. i would probably be dead.

>> frank, young student there contemplating whether or not a trip to the bathroom would have meant the end of their life. also hearing from one of the victims' daughter who says her dad, golf coach david phoenix among those injured in the shooting today. on facebook, his daughter katie feex writes shot in the foot and hip alert and awake when he was hospitalized. what are your thoughts as you hear these accounts come in? students who, again, thinking about all the normal things, should be, that accompany back to school, and to the latest school shooting in america? >> yeah. this gets to the reality that the victims are far beyond only

the people who were killed or wounded. the witnesses, the people in and around this. not only they had to see horrific thing nos one should see let alone a child, but then had to deal with a -- i want to try to describe this. if the account of the shooting is correct, four dead, nine injured. we're looking at multiple rounds being fired in a very small space. maybe a classroom. maybe a hallway. outside of a classroom. for those who have never experienced, without ear protection, rounds going off around you, it is loud. it is deafening, and you will continue to hear that for a protracted period of time. you may experience ringing in your ears for a protracted period of time. it is a total sensory experience in a very bad way.

and our kids are having to deal with that. it's going to make the interviews of the witnesses more challenging. they should be using forensic specialists who are used to interviewing juveniles, but beyond that, the fbi victim witness program and the school system will be providing counsel and therapy direction for those students and faculty members. this is what we're talking nab today's school environment. >> and we're going to have you stick around. going out on reporting from the ajc. every parent's night mayor. an 11th grader texted his mom, "i think there's a school shooting." minutes later his mom got another message. i love you, henry wrote. sneak in a break. we'll be right back. longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice, and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible

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i was crying. i didn't want to die that way. i don't really -- want to mee the lord that way. some kids were telling others to stop crying because it was probably scaring them. it was really scary, because he was just like a kid that, like, just a quiet kid that sat in the back of the classroom. no one really knew who he was. >> i want to read the rest of the that "atlanta constitutional journal" i started to read before the break. 10:23 a.m. 11th grader henry vandenwalt texted his mom i think there's a school shooting. minutes later another text, i

love you, henry wrote. this is likely repeated several times during several chaotic hours for students and parents. students led from the school outside where parents rushed to find them. frantic parents rushed to the school with many forced to park and reach to recent campus while searching for their children. apalachee sofmayor said she was in her second period class when another student barged in yelling for everyone to get down. "i wasn't texts my family at first i thought it was a drill" telling the "atlanta journal-constitution." since the school prepared for this scenario she and her classmates knew what to do. "my hands were shaking. i felt bad. everyone was trying to find their siblings." catching glimpses of blood escorted from the building. i can still picture everything, the blood, shouting, everything she said. what as a pediatrician is the

prospect of ever recovering from seeing that? >> you cannot psychologically recover from that. we have no idea the depths and the breadth of the damage we are doing to an entire generation of americans by making them live through this nightmare scenario that we have created through our nation's gun laws. i think it's really important to remember what donald trump recently said to families of school shooting victims. he told them to get over it. he does not care. he bragged -- he did nothing on guns during his first term. this is just one of the critical issues on the ballot in november and if the stories you're hearing and images you're seeing are breaking your heart today i beg to you consider that when you vote and we need to vote for common sense champions like kamala harris and tim walz who understand, understand our children are more valuable than the nra and the gun industry.

>> -- investigation and we wanted to come back this afternoon and present to you a little more of a timeline of the events that have taken place here today and what we know up to this point with the investigation. at approximately 10:28 a.m. this morning the sheriff office received alerts about reports of an active shooter and radio track school resource officers having the same concern. within minutes law enforcement was on the scene as well as two school resource officers assigned here to the school who immediately encountered the subject within just minutes of this report going out. once they encountered the subject the subject immediately surrendered to these officers and was taken into custody. in addition to what i want you to know as of now, there are four individuals who are deceased from this incident.

nine that have been taken to local hospitals with various injuries. of those that were, are deceased, two were students and two were teachers here at the school. the property right now for us within this investigation is to gather all the facts, to make sure we're accurate with it, because this is a murder investigation. as the sheriff mentioned earlier this morning the shoot sir in custody. his name is colt, that's c-odl-t gray a student here at the school, g rsh d rsh a-y. a student here's at the high school and again taken into custody. he will be charged with murder and he will be tried as an adult. we are coordinating these charges and obviously this investigation with district attorney brad smith who is the

district attorney for the piedmont judicial circuit here. since early this morning we said this occurred numerous interviews have been taking place. an investigation with students, faculty as well as any other witnesses that we could identify. law enforcement had a very, very swift response to this incident once the incident was determined that there was a concern here. those resources where there was a response or throughout this investigation to assist came obviously to the sheriff's office here from other local law enforcement agencies, state law enforcement agencies and the federal law enforcement agencies as well. to include not to be left out multiple ems personnel, multiple fire personnel and agencies, those agencies responded here as well today and i am extremely grateful as i know the sheriff

is for that quick response and partnerships working here together with what all has gone on. currently from the investigative perspective we have crime scene agents and other special agents from the gbi from close to a dozen of our different work units from across the state that have responded here today to work on this investigation. again, collecting evidence, conducting interviews and so forth. i do want to pass this along. that if anyone has any information that wants to be passed on concerning this investigation, that they can do that anonymously in our tip line. at 1-800-597-tips. or 1-800-597-8477. they can also report this on, by down loading the seesomethingsendsomething app done by android or apple phones either one.

if they need to report any tips concerning this investigation. let me close out before i turn this over to the sheriff and let you just, remind you that this is still aive investigation. a lot still fluid, a lot of interviews that be conducted continuing on into tonight as well as crime scene work collecting and gathering evidence. but what is more important for me to mention here to you is it's my heartfelt sympathy to the parents and the students that were here today regardless of where they were in the school, this has got a great impact on them, as well as on this community. our thoughts and prayers along with everybody standing behind me and every law enforcement agency in this state and many of them i will tell you around this country, they are in our thoughts and prayers. we will continue with that. we ask for your patience as we

continue through this and we'll continue to try to give you as many updates with information as we can to keep you informed, but thank you for being here. i'm now going to turn it over to the county sheriff. >> good afternoon. i'm sheriff judd smith of the county sheriff office. i never imagined -- i've never imagined i would be speaking to the media in my career over something that happened today the pure evil that happened today. i cannot thank the people behind me for the support they give me today, give this office and give this staff. this is home for me. i was born and raised here.

i went to school in this school system. my kids go to this school system. i'm proud of this school system. my heart hurts for these kids. my heart hurts for our community. but i want to make it very clear that hate will not prevail in this county. i want that to be very clear and known. love will prevail over what happened today. i assure you of that. it is very early as to what happened. governor kemp reached out to me and has provided me every single resource that he has to make sure justice prevails. i don't know why it happened. i may not ever know. we may not ever know. but i ask that you and our

community lift up our schools, lift up our public safety, and that, again, we do not let this hateful event prevail. as to what happened today. i want to thank the surrounding agencies and counties and city and state, federal authorities that have come and provided us, because they prevented a lot of more tragic events from happening. continue to lift up these families. copt to lift up our students and our kids, and know that love will prevail. at this time i want to ask dr. la duf or school superintendent to come and speak on behalf of the school. >> good afternoon.

i'm dallas la duf superintendent of the county school system and i want to thank the barrow county system and law partners for their swift response along with our staff and thank the community for their response and patience as we work to reunify the students with their families here today and secure the rest of our school campuses. our schools will be closed for the remainder of this week as we cooperate fully with law enforcement to get answers to the many questions that we all have. about this incident here today. as we close our central offices will be open with grief counseling available for our community every day this week and thereafter as we support each other through this terrible event. in closing i want to say to our

community as school system we are here for you, we support you and we are ready to get you any support that you may need as we grieve through this together. thank you. >> sheriff -- can you -- some sort of hate crime? >> shortly, if someone decides to take a firearm into a school, where kids are given an education or entitled to an education and want to harm others, to me it's hateful. >> interaction -- [ inaudible ] stop the shooter -- describe that to us? how did it go down exactly what happened? >> obviously the shooter was armed, and our school resource officer engaged him, and the shooter quickly realized that if he did not give up, that it would end with an ois.

officer involved shooting. he gave up and the deputy took him into custody. >> and any warning this was going to happen? >> looking into how he obtained that and how he got it into the school. >> -- his family to learn more what led up to these moments? >> we have k. you share information? >> no. >> and -- able to communicate with the people make sure everybody would know what was happening? >> yes, sir, i have. the school and our office has people that speak in spanish and they have spoke ton those folks as well. >> is the shooter -- [ inaudible ] now? >> sorry. >> is the shooter talking? is he saying why. the shooter was interviewed, and he was speaking with our investigators earlier along with the gbi. >> sir -- >> and [ inaudible ] sheriff? >> it is helping our

investigation. >> sheriff -- >> course of threatening -- [ inaudible ] to the school -- prior to the shooting. >> none that i'm aware of. >> were all nine injured victims shot? >> in some capacity, yes. >> and sheriff -- one targeted? >> we don't know of any targets at this point. we're not -- we have not identified that at this point. this is the last question i'm going to take. >> sheriff is there a connection between the shooter and the victims? >> none that i'm we're of. aware of. i noticed you have a lot of questions about the student and -- that we mentioned we identified earlier. keep in mind that part of our investigation. we're looking into that as mentioned earlier he was a student here and it was part of our investigation that we're

looking into all aspects current and prior involving that individual. >> can you tell us how many rounds were fired? >> the shooter -- the shooter -- is a student, yes. >> can we expect -- >> we do not know how many rounds. >> the shooter have a -- [ inaudible ]. >> for now this is the information that we have. it is an active investigation. i assure you we will come back out here in a couple of hours. please, make sure you're filing a gbi x page putting the updates there. if there's anything that's new we'll make sure that we share that information. it's still very early. investigators have a lot of work to do. we appreciate your patience. do expect another in-person news conference out here in the next few hours. monitoring x page and we'll be sure to update you accordingly. thank you. >> x.com? >> yes. >> thank you. being there with the georgia bureau of investigations and the local sheriff.

the news i think the biggest headline, i'll ask all of our guests to weigh in. we have the name. the shooter is a 14-year-old student at the school. he was "a student here" from the georgia bureau of investigations. we learned that the shooter is in custody and will be charged with murder and tried as an adult. sheriff jud smith described it as "pure evil that happeneds here today." spoke personally about the school system saying this is home for me. i went to this school system. my kids go to this school system. and then on the investigation, obviously, it's just hours' old, in its earliest phases we learned the call came in at 10:20 to law enforcement. the at this point not aware of warnings the school had abouts specific student they named. we learned law enforcement is speaking to the parents. they were not able to answer how the weapon itself made its way

inside the school but did indicate that the 14-year-old shooter is talking to law enforcement. we also learned the nine injured victims were injured with gunshots. of the four who lost their lives today what should have just been a day at school, to were students and two were teachers. tom winter? >> sure. so everything you said and i would also add that this is going to be a murder investigation. he said he is anticipating being charged as an adult. the 14-year-old student, that he is in fact a current student. then that backs up some of the witness information we received from some of the students throughout the course of the day as they've spoke with our station, affiliate in atlanta. 11 alive and talking about this individual and that there isn't appear to be a lot that stands out. there didn't seem to be a lot of students that had a connection

with this particular student, but we'll be a little cautious, because obviously these are initial statements by kids that have been through a lot of trauma. but they did appear to know who this individual was. the fact that he is talking to them is probably going to be helpful when it comes to a motive. the fact the family will be talkative will be helpful for the same reasons. i noticed they didn't immediately say where the gun came from. that doesn't mean they don't know. it just means they're not perhaps ready to share with us or haven't nailed down that information precisely at this point. a lot of questions. 14 years old would be too young, i believe, i'll double check laws in georgia, for him to have purchases a pepin or possess we. i'll check the laws going forward here. as far as how this happens, typically i believe in georgia, if they charge him as an adult those documents will be available. we will get information that if he was charged as juvenile we

would not normally be able to see those records. that's something that's not made public same way an adult charged they are made public. get information a., through the court system and b. through further input from the investigation. gbi is an organization that fortunately has a lot of experience with major cases and we anticipated they would be able to share a lot more and it appears that is the case. so where does this all go from here? outside of the legal process and the charging process, hopefully further investigatios we can get more information. if i heard it correctly, reporting out there. information myself and my colleague jonathan deents came across, the school received a call or some sort of warning. appeared the sheriff seemed to say that wasn't the case. not something he was aware of. i'm sure more questions about

that. point something called in advance. armed school safety officer there, able to challenge this gunman appears rather quickly according to the initial timeline is probably something that saved lives. unusual, of course, if this doesn't end in gunfire involving the suspect. my top-line takeaways from what we just heard, nicolle. not a lot unfortunately making any feel better about this and give us more information going forward from here on it's going to take time, and some patience unfortunately until we find out some more information. >> sounding to me this way that everything that is wrong that he has to double check to see if 14 is too young to possess a gun in georgia. maybe because georgia ranks 46th in terms of the leniency of their gun laws. all of that is front and center before the american people, as

andy keeps pointing out. but none of that does anything for these four families whose world will forever be life before 10:20 a.m. today and life after. >> yeah, as with tom's statement that he has to check on whether a 14-year-old can purchase a weapon, jumped out at me as well. as did the reality that we're kind of relieved that, yes, two armed police officers quickly responded to this. the subject surrendered. that's great, but my god, there's other ways to handle this in our society so that we don't have armed encampments. i'm thrilled that these armed officers showed up rapidly and it ended without further bloodshed, of course, but here we are -- how many school resources? one in every hallway?

and with regard to change and implementing change, you need only look to the member of congress that represents this district in georgia. and his name is mike collins. he has 100% rating from gun owners of america. he has a 92% favorability rating from the nra. he takes tens of thousands of dollars from the nra. so you can't offer condolences and then say, i'm certainly not going to do anything about this with regard to the gun side of it. >> dr. andrews, vice president harris talked about meeting with gen z and all of her conversations with young leaders about their participation, growing up as this active shooter geeration. i want to read you part of a statement from the march for lyes group, which sort of rose up from and after parkland. they say this, quote, we're

horrified that back to school increasingly means back to the school shootings. let's not frgt gun violence is a preventable tragedy. it's time for action now. what do you think we miss if we leave those young leaders and that generation of kids, who have grown up doing this since they were 3 years old, out of these conversations? >> i'm incredibly inspired by the gen z activists who have gotten off the sidelines to address this public health crisis, but we should not rely on them. we have placed this burden on their shoulders, and we cannot leave it that way. we have to do everything we can as the adults in the room to address this public health crisis. i want to go back to something the sheriff said at that press conference. he was talking a lot about hate. it's really important to understand that hate without ready access to firearms is just hate. but when you combine hate with ready access to firearms, that's when you get mass shootings and empty seats at dinner tables.

i can say with absolute certainty that no 14-year-old should have access to an unsecured firearm. this is a preventable tragedy at every single level, and we must do better by our children. >> tom, i want to come back to you and see if you have anymore clarity on whether 14 is too young to possess a firearm. >> i'm doing my fast googling. each state is so different. some states have the same types of law, but each state has a little nuance there's a lot of states that have reciprocity, that means the license to carry might transfer over to another state. what i'm looking at here, possession by a minor under 8, that law which is georgia code, pertains to a handgun. so he hasn't said what type of gun this individual had. if he fired with a handgun, it's

unlawful for a minor to possess a handgun or for a person to furnish a handgun to a minor, under the age of 18. that applies to a handgun only. i'm getting this information not only from the georgia statute, but from the nra's website, which does have a lot of information on these types of things. there are also some other laws that pertain to carry into other things that i don't necessarily think will apply here. so i'm still digging through the georgia laws and hopefully i'll have more information here in the next several minutes. >> whatever the answer is on the law, there's no reasonable person who believes that a 14-year-old, for all the reasons we have been discussing, should have access to a weapon. and certainly, no reasonable person on the planet thinks that a 14-year-old under any circumstances should take that loaded weapon into a school and take the lives of four people,

two students, two teachers. this is not an extraordinary day in american life. >> 14 years old, can't buy cigarettes, because they might hurt you. you can't drive a car because you might hurt someone else. but maybe you could walk in and plunk your money down and buy a gun. it makes no sense. you mentioned reasonable people. i would use that throughout the day's coverage as well. yes, average american on the street, should someone with violent tendencies and articulated threats be examined by a mental health professional and have their gun taken temporarily, yes. do you have bad guys to have guns, no. should parents secure their weapons from youngsters in the house by law, yes, they should. how about a red flag law that allows family members, teachers,

counsellors to raise their hand and say this person is bothering me because i think he's going to act out violently. yeah, you should have that. the extremes have taken overthi. and they'll point immediately to the second amendment, which is about forming a militia. we have a militia. it's called the national guard. we have our police departments. so take reason out of this. reason long ago left this discussion. and this is what we're left with. >> tom winter and dr. andrews, under the most difficult and challenging of setting circumstances, we're grateful for your wsdom and your clarity and all your reporting. thank you so much. frank sticks around. our coverage of the shooting in georgia continues after a quick break. stay with us. break. stay with us you see why we need downy free and gentle with no perfumes or dyes. it not only makes your clothes softer, it is gentle on your skin.

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it's 5:00 here in new york. in georgia a town reeling from the latest mass shooting at a high school that left four people dead, two students and two teachers. nine others were wounded. in a press conference we were learned they were wounded by gunshots. a press briefing in the last hour confirmed the suspect in custody is alive and talking. he's 14 years old and a student at the school. we learned from officials that he will be charged with murder and tried as an adult. those officials also confiring that all nine who were injured were shot. it's another senseless school shooting in america. students there had only been in

classes for one month. president biden put out a powerful statement, quote, what should have been a joyous back to school season in winder, georgia, has now turned into another horrific reminder of how gun violence continues to tear our communities apart. students across the country are learning how to duck and cover instead of how to read and write. we cannot continue to accept this as normal. the sheriff had an emotional moment last hour when he talked about today's horror. >> i never imagined that i would be speaking to the media in my career over something that happened today, the pure evil that happened today. i cannot thank the people behind me for the support they give me today, to give this office and this staff. this hits home for me. i was born and raised here. i went to school in this school

system. my kids go to this school system. i'm proud of this school system. my heart hurts for these kids. my heart hurts for our community, but i want to make it very clear that hate will not prevail in this county. i want that to be very clear and known. >> before we head down to the scene of today's shooting, we are back with former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi frank. you have the task of talking us through so many of these shootings. so many of them that happen at schools i find, frankly, shattering and destabilizing. as someone who sends my kid to school every day. also joining us is dave collin, the author of "parkland and columbine." we turn to you a lot on days like this. you run out of new things to

say, so i'm going to turn over the air waves to the students who witnessed this horror today. here are two of them. a 10th grader and another student worried about their younger sibling. >> it was just like a loud boom as if a locker had slammed. my teacher thought it was some kid acting foolish. so then she took a peek outside and we heard repeatedly the banging again. that's when we could identify it was a gun. then the hard lockdown was placed. then we ran to the back of the classroom, turned off the lights. i was shaking. ufs scared. i didn't have my phone on me and couldn't communicate with my mom for half an hour. i didn't know what was going to happen. you could hear the gunfire right down the hall. >> we were at the middle school. i was wondering if my siblings were okay. i was worried. i thought i was going to die holding some random kid's hand. my face was in somebody's butt.

i was just trying to get away. you never know. i didn't get to see anything. i was head down. i just saw the after math. >> you never unsee the aftermath, do you? >> no, i go back and forth tweeb tearing me up and some days like today i'm numb. and i never know what's coming. it is sometimes too much. today i'm in analytical mode. i was stunned that he was so young and that, as your jury roomist journalist said, they are getting younger. more of them are living through this. columbine, i said we needed to understand these as murder/suicides because they all

die in the act. and they all know this. it's not true anymore. i want to go back and check, but maybe five or eight years ago, somewhere in that span, some started living through it. it's still the minority, but there's a different mind set among some of these and perhaps the younger kids. i'm not sure what to make of that. perhaps frank does. it's just so horrible. i immediately go to shannon watts' twitter page and they all have a lot of insight. it shocked me that georgia doesn't have a law requiring these to be locked up. what sane person wouldn't also think that was necessary. >> frank, the truth is that these happen with enough of a

pace that the three of us have had this conversation before, but it is so jarring for four families, their life will never be the same. today is that sharp dropoff where life changed forever. that's the case with the uvalde families. that's the case with the the columbine families. that's the case with the parkland families. that's the case with the newton families. we live in a country where we have these conversations in the wake of these horrors, we turn to these gorgeous young faces, who speak with all the wisdom of kids who have been through the drills and simple ily recount to us how long it took them to remember what to do in an active shooter drill. who is looking at what that does to them? >> i'm not aware of anyone. there is a school of research that is looking at how to best conduct drills in an

age-appropriate way. that's getting some traction. but with regard to the long-term impact of these drills and these shootings, we now have a generation that's been raised on this. i'm now a grandparent. certainly, my kids were raised on this from kindergarten forward. now my grand kids are experiencing this. and we don't know where this goes except perhaps that we have this kind of copy cat thing that's going on and has been mentioned maybe more shootings surrendering so they can experience the infamy that comes with this. one of the stark contrasts here for me, and for those on the far right saying, yeah, we still shouldn't be doing anything about gun safety. two things today were true at the same time. everything went right.

two armed resource officers immediately confronted the shooter, who immediately surrendered. the school went into hard lockdown. the notification went out. everybody did what they were supposed to do in their classrooms, and the outcome was horrible. so if you're okay with that outcome, see, look, armed officers saved the day. we know how to harden school quickly. yeah, and we have four people dead and nine additional people shot. are you good with that outcome? i'm not. >> we are covering this tragedy in winder, georgia. pria, what's the latest? >> reporter: we were just briefed by authorities moments ago and learned a little more about the shooter. we know that he is a 14-year-old male student at app la the high

school. they did say they got an opportunity to question him, but they said this is a very early investigation at this point and that they are going doing serving more interviews into the coming hours. i can tell you this has been a very frantic and emotional scene today as parents and families were rushing over to this area trying to be reunited with their students. this school is directly across the street from a preschool and right next to a middle school. so there are students of all ages who were within this one little block. law enforcement had really blocked off all the roads, so parents were just leaving their cars on the side of the road and walking sometimes over a mile to try to get to the school to find their students. i did get an opportunity to speak to some students. as you can imagine, they were quite shaken up. many of them saying that they heard gunshots inside of the school, but they weren't sure whether or not it was a drill. they said that normally they

were notified if there's any sort of drill, but they began huddling together, praying with one another, and they really didn't know if they were going to see their families at the end of the day. >> dave cullen, the atlanta journal constitution reported what some of those conversations sound like. i'm going to read them again. at 10:23 a.m., henry text his mother, quote, i think there's a school shooting. minutes later, another message, i love you, henry wrote. the text exchange was repeated hundreds of times for students and parents. students were led from the school outside, where parents rushed to find them. frantic parents rushed to the school with many forced to park and walk, as our reporting confirms. but this ritual of texting your parents -- i mean, i don't know what else to call it, proof of life, i'm still here. it wasn't me today.

this is more than a gun safety cisis. this is more than an easy access to gun mixing with adolescent angst. this is an epidemic of trauma and terror that we send our kids to school with. this is part of the conversation about phones and screens and communication. this is life in america. >> yeah, i'm so glad that frank brought up about the much wider net of people traumatized. the s.w.a.t. teams if they were involved, but all the first responders. columbine, i remember patrick ireland was the boy in the window who went out. they caught him on the back of an armored car. and they were really distraught the next day. everyone involved, it was a whole team because they needed to know they were okay.

he could still speak a little in the ambulance, but he kept saying pa risk. so it was locked in as rick. so the s.w.a.t. team people knew he was patrick and they couldn't find any patrick. all these people are human beings. and every level, neighbors, the whole schools, they are really traumatized by this. and sometimes the parents, i remember cameron's mom. his mom was on a cruise in the caribbean. and so she couldn't get there. she didn't know how to get there. she didn't know when they could get to a port.

it's not that uncommon. people go through terrible things. but one more thing. i hope and pray they have gotten this right. if the families haven't been notified yet, the way they gather people and notify them, i couldn't believe parkland 19 years after columbine, it was still 1:00 in the morning and all the people were at the center gahered and they always do the math. more parents leave and they still have no many idea. and that one was like midnight or 1:00 a.m., they finally started telling them. they brought each one out into a separate room. but it lasted over an hour.

he finally just started yelling at them. i want to know if my son is alive. they also took them into other rooms at the marriott to tell them. people in the waiting room could hear the screams through the walls. we at least need to get that down. i pray -- of all the things, this shouldn't be happening, but for god's sake, get that down. you have to plan ahead. that's really humanitarian order. >> it's just in the category of too hideous to wrap our brains around, but we must. vice president kamala harris had planned to announce economic policies, policies designed to help small business owners in america. this is what she did instead. >> so before i begin, i do want to say a few words about this

tragic shooting that took place this morning in winder, georgia. we're still gathering information about what happened, but we know that there were multiple fatalities and injuries. our hearts are with all the students, the teachers, and their families, and we are grateful to the first responders and law enforcement that were on the scene, but this is just a senseless tragedy. on top of so many senseless tragedies. it's just outrageous that every day in our country in the united states of america that parents have to send their children to school worried about whether or not their child will come home alive. it'sless. we have to stop it. we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country for once and for all. it doesn't have to be this way. it doesn't have to be this way.

>> i don't know if our viewers could tell, she's according to cnn and others, speaking behind bullet proof glass. she and donald trump both deliver all their remarks behind bullet proof glass, because even the secret service views guns as uncontrollable or lethal enough of a threat after what happened, what almost happened to former president trump, that every candidate for president speaks like this now. at these kinds of events. this picture in and of itself underscores the message that kamala harris is delivering today. >> you know, if creatures from outer space landed on planet earth and took a look around at all of this coverage today and the fact is you just said our presidential candidates speak behind bullet-proof glass, and

that our kid -- we send our kids off to die with a lunchbox in their hand, those aliens would say you're out of your mind. yet we somehow rationalized twisting ourselves into a societal pretzel to avoid confronting the reality that we're killing ourselves with weapons. no one is suggesting -- no reasonable person is saying, let's do away with the entire second amendment. let's not have anyone carry anything. that's not what anybody reasonable is proposing, but rather we enforce existing laws. that would be nice. and if you want to see how seriously we actually take this horrible issue, take a look at what we spend on resources and budget for the agency responsible for simply enforcing

existing gun law. the atf, how many tens of thousands of personnel do you think they have? they don't have tens of thousands. they have about 3,000 agents. for the whole world to cover the influx of guns into our society, chase down stolen weapons, look at the county fairgrounds for the gun show every weekend where illegal things might be happening. we don't take this seriously. every time someone on the hill suggests it's time to increase the budget and resources at the atf, of course, it gets voted down. because god forbid we should enfoce existing law. >> there are things that are really, really hard and really, really complicated. this isn't one of them. this isn't ai, we have never seen it before and we have a first amendment. this isn't one of those things where it's a mystery why people die. it's not a mystery.

we can do this one if we decide that we don't want to send our kids to school hoping that we're not the ones at the other end of these texts. quote, i love you, henry wrote. henry lived, but his mother and henry and that family will never forget this day, this day when they were not one of the four families who didn't come home. our thanks to our panel. thank you for this coverage. i'm sorry it's necessary, but i fear it will continue to be. we'll continue to monitor any developments and breaking news out of georgia in this horrific tragedy. four people murdered in school today shortly after 10:20 a.m. the suspect is a 14-year-old fellow student. that student is in custody. we're going to talk about some of the other huge political stories make headlines today. we're going to take a short

break. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. eak. we'll be right back. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire ♪ matc(woman) c'mon c'moniption. ♪ (man) yes! ♪ (vo) you've got your sunday obsession and we got you. now with verizon, get nfl sunday ticket from youtube tv on us and get every out-of-market sunday game. plus $800 off samsung galaxy z fold6. only on verizon. (jalen hurt) see you sunday.

in her remarks today shortly after the school shooting, vice president kamala harris made clear that we as a country have a stark choice when it comes to which direction we go on the question of gun safety in america. while it turns out we have ab increasingly stark choice when it comes to how the next commander-in-chief will treat and respect the men and women of our military. donald trump's pattern of denigrating the military began in his childhood when being president was probably just a glint in his eye. it began with his bone spurs claim that got him out of serving our country in the

vietnam war and we heard him make this comment about then senator john mccain. >> he's not a war hero. he's a war hero because he was captured. i like people that weren't captured. he's a war hero because he was captured. >> those comments were shocking and newsworthy and remarkable, not just for the sheer democraciness and disrespect that they represented, but the fact that the republican party stuck with that guy, donald trump, they proceeded to nominate him to be their candidate and to serve as the country's commander-in-chief. they did it three times. they have done it two times after that time. in the nine years since, the pattern has only been filled in and corroborated. we continue to hear more and more about donald trump's clear and undenial contempt for the men and women who have served

our country, especially those who have been injured or killed. thanks to some extraordinary and courageous reporting first broken by jeffrey goldberg in the atlantic, we learned about trump's chosen word for those who gave their lives serving in world war i. he called them losers and suckers. we learned he did not want to attend a ceremony in hallowed ground in 2018 because, quote, trump feared his hair would become dishevelled in the rain. we learned what he side to his dhs secretary john kelly while visiting the graf of general kelly's son, who died serving this country in afghanistan when he was 29 years old, quote, i don't get it. what was in it for them, end quote. we learned that trump told the former chairman of the joint chiefs not to have any disabled veterans appear in public, because as trump put it, no one wants to see that. bringing us to the events of the

past week. in some ways a culmination of that body of extraordinary reporting, where an altercation at arlington national cemetery drove the u.s. army to come forward and do something they almost never do, to condemn the actions of the trump campaign, of an aid to donald trump, who pushed an employee abruptly aside when trying to take a photo. trump said that the army's story is, quote, made up. the events at arlington have sparked criticism from those who served in the military, including from someone who rarely weighs in. sandy alderson, a retired first lieutenant of the marine corp. he writes this about how disgusted he is saying, quote, even in these partisan time, i never thought this skate sacred place -- where americans of all types and all generations collectively are owner honored, would be corrupted by politics most marines will tell you that good character is the cornerstone of good leadership.

it is almost impossible to lead without good character because character is the foundation of trust. it's tough to follow someone you don't trust. trump is devoid of character, as demonstrated by his off-repeated denigration of military service and as reflected in most other aspects of his public and private life. therefore, he cannot be trusted. joining us now is the editor in chief of "the atlantic kpts", jeffrey goldberg is here. also joining us is retired marine corp. first lieutenant, former president and general manager of the new york mets, sander alderson is here. plus founder of democratic majority action pac amy mcgrath. sandy, i'll start with you. it's not a typical thing for you to weigh in on politics. explain more what moved you to write this piece and what you

find so beyond the pale about this episode. >> i felt i had a somewhat you anemic perspective on this incident, in part, because i served as part of an honor guard in washington, d.c. in the early '70s. my mother and father are both buried at arlington. i have attended many ceremonies at the tomb of the unknown soldier. on all of those occasions, the solemnity of those ceremonies, the privacy, the emotion were the overwhelming, i think, quality of the day and to see a political event of this type taking advantage of arlington as a place of men and women who serve in the military just

burned me big time. i felt i needed to write something. so i did. >> sandy, what is it -- if you play it forward, he's a candidate for president. he's who the republicans chose for the third time to be the commander-in-chief. what does it say about the judgment of people who think he's a suitable pick for that kind of trust? >> his attitude toward the military is emblematic is of other aspects of american life, frankly. i don't think he has any appreciation for the military. i don't think he has any understanding of it. i don't think he has any curiosity about it. i think he views it as an instrument of his power. something that can be wielded. but with a total lack of what

motivates those in the military, how it functions as an institution, i just don't think he cares about those kinds of details that ultimately create an understanding and appreciation. there's no empathy there, because i don't think you can have empathy for servicemen and women if you don't have a curiosity about them. if you don't really concern yourself about what motivates them, what drives them. what is their loyalty to? i don't think he takes the time to try to understand what underlies the commitment that the men and women in the service and their families make to this country. >> jeffrey goldberg, because it's year nine, that's the only

conclusion to be drawn. nine years ago we used to cover trump, oh, he didn't know. he couldn't have known. he knows. he knows what arlington is. he knows what arlington means. he know what is it means to john kelly. that is the story. take me through your reporting and these great men who you covered really in a league of your own about where we are now 60 days out from another election, where he's on the menu running pretty close, slightly behind now, vice president kamala harris. >> it's a toss-up. look, i think, like you, it was 2015 when my understanding of american politics got undone a bit, i would say. so he attacks john mccain,

someone i admire. if not for his politics, then for his character and his heroism. he attacks that person. according to the laws of political physics that i understood, you can't be a viable candidate for office in america if you disparage war heroes. especially a republican, according to the stereotype at least. so i thought he did that, and we said good-bye to donald trump. that was amusing and appalling. but he became more popular. so i realize now that i wasn't understanding something. i'm still not understanding it. just to add on to something that sandy said that was very wise, i think. it is true that he has contempt for the military for the concept of service, especially selfless

service. but i think what's happening here is that he may have contempt for everyone. we just notice it more when it's directed at people who have served their country in people who run toward danger on behalf of their country. i think the character is the character. the contempt, everyone is a sucker. that sort of baked into his personality. there are too many examples of this, not only in the military, but across all aspects of life for us not to sort of see that basically he holds humans, especially humans who try to do good things, in a kind of contempt. >> jeff, like you, i remember where i was when the mccain sound made its way on cable. he went on to attack bush 41. then in the election, he targeted and smeared the gold

star family who spoke at hillary clinton's nominating convention. he would go on as president to get in a fight with a widow, a gold star family, whose husband died in service, would take to the podium. it's something i have never seen in my life describe how a service member's body is packed in ice and taken home. and then he would go on to get into a real battle with the chairman of the joint chiefs mark milley. he's called john kelly dumb for corroborating some of your great reporting. it is likely true that he hates everybody, but there is a special bewilderment and disgust that he has for the men and women who put the country ahead of him and that happened violent ly with the generals. he had to be educated. i understand from your great reporting from others that general kelly had to take him to

school the and help him understand that generals served the constitution and the country. it seems that that education has failed. what is the current level of alarm among these men specifically and other military sources you speak to? >> you make a good point. there's no learning curve here. that's one of the things that's so interesting about this. if you went to arlington national cemetery and made a faux pas and somebody called you on it, i'm pretty sure you wouldn't make that faux pas again. it's a sensitive place. you try to behave according to the norms of decent character-driven behavior. there's no learning curve. that's why he keeps coming back to this again and again. he is what he is. what worries people who think about civil military relations, who worry about -- it was those two words, my generals, which is

not something that a president of the united states going back to george washington would ever say. the generals report to the constitution in a deep meaningful, almost spiritual way. they worry that now he's at least been through four years from his perspective frustration with the military, frustration with my generals, so he's going to pick people to run things the next time around who are more malleable, who don't stand up, general milley stood up again and again, general mattis did, stood up when he would talk about using the insurrection act. ask why can't these troops shoot american demonstrators in the legs. they would explain, we don't do that here in our democracy. the worry is that he's going to find people who are more malleable than the people who were around him the last time. >> it is an active and live

worry. it happens mostly behind closed doors. we're lucky to have you three here to talk about that. i have to sneak in a quick break. stick around. we'll be right back. stick around. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) hi, my name is damian clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include

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so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. if you politicize arlington national cemetery, everybody running for congress, everybody running for the senate is going to have to go there and get their picture taken to show they are a good solid american. you cannot politicize fallen american soldiers come hell or

high water. that's a red line you can't cross. he crossed it happily. he's defending himself and not just defending himself, going after the worker that one of his people shoved. and that's just so beneath the presidency. >> we're back. i like that adam kinzinger gets in the last piece because, to me, this is part of the story that needs to be lifted up. the person who he shoved was so afraid of the consequences that this person didn't want to become part of the story, afraid of retribution, afraid of the trump maga base. anybody in the trump area, law enforcement shows up. it's happened to jack smith. it happens to anyone in politics, in public in the time of trump. but this part of the story seems to me one of the most corrosive aspects of it.

someone whose job it is to protect this place that is talks about is one of the last solemn sacred physical spaces in american life, not just political life but american life. this person is so afraid of what would happen to her or him that they don't want to say anything. >> yeah, and it's an example of what has happened to us here in america in the age of trump. donald trump is responsible for this division. he's responsible for these actions. and also we never used, had a president or anyone running for high office use gold star families in this manner. use them in such a political way to use their grief and attack the other side using that grief

is really just beneath us as americans. and it's just terrible the to see. it's just another example why donald trump is not fit to be commander-in-chief. he just isn't. >> amy, you're seeing some movement in the opinions of him the among veterans and military. tell me more. >> yeah, so we know that trump's support among veterans and active duty forces, according to a new change research poll that came out this morning, is dropping. and it's dropped from when he started to become president, it's dropped 14 points among active duty. why is that? it's because donald trump doesn't understand honor or sacrifice. he does things like hug the flags. those who serve, particularly young veterans who serve, they have seen him.

they were serving when he was in office. and they see how he uses them and politicizes those people who serve. and i think another example of this is more recently jimmy mccain, the son of john mccain, has come out and said not only is he not for trump, but he's endorsing kamala harris. not only is he endorsing kamala harris, he's switching his party to become a democrat. and that shows a shift. it's just another example of the shift toward the democratic party and away from a party that disrespects veterans and really it's bigger than that. it's also a party that is doing things like trying to rip up our partnerships and alliances and not standing up to authoritarianism. >> sandy, you write about some of what jeff talked about. you write about senator mccain having some footage and

apologizing profusely, saying my campaign made a mistake. there should never be footage of arlington in a political ad. so it's the inability to learn and that lack of remorse. but speak to this as part of the whole picture of someone so comfortable praising the kinds of threats and adversaries that the men and women of the mill the tear give their lives to protect us from. >> look, it's somewhat incomprehensible. seeing the fooltage again of his comments about john mccain, what the former president doesn't understand is that heroism is not about results. it's about conduct. and john mccain was a hero because of his conduct before he was captured and his conduct while he was captured that

inspired those around him and left him as a hero to most of us. but trump doesn't understand that. he doesn't understand sacrifice because it's in opposition to self-interest. when you have men and women who are motivated by sacrifice, by loyalty, their commitment to one another, that's incomprehensible to someone who is driven by and only driven by self-interest. so as i said earlier, i think he views the military as simply an instrument, another instrument, another arrow in his quiver, and did you want doesn't have the desire to fully understand what the military and servicemen and women represent. therefore, doesn't really know how to interact with them.

or to employ them wisely. that's what concerns me. >> jeff, you write about the men, who sort of constitutionally, and i don't mean the document, but who they are, makes it almost unfathomable for them to be part of our politics. and it is also true that what they saw and what they know is so essential to keeping this country the kind of country that they devoted their lives to serving and protecting. i have a sense of how reluctant to speak people like general matis and general milley are in a political context, but do you think that anything that is happening in realtime, this live wire of trump's contempt for the military and the most sacred placess to the military could change their calculations between now and election day? >> that's a good question. i tend to think not, precisely

for the reason you're suggesting. since the age of 18 or 20, they were taught that the military is apolitical. there's a reason our military polls well as an institution. there are a lot of reasons. especially when other institutions, other establishment organizations have much lower favorability. one of the reasons is they are above partisanship. they work on behalf of the american people and defend the constitution. so i think for good cultural reasons and good political reasons, in effect, they don't want to go out and say x person isn't qualified to be president. on the other hand, as we have seen over many years and many articles and many books, we do know a lot about the activities

that took place inside the white house, inside the pentagon and the things that donald trump has said, and i think that's a reflection of some of the frustration that a lot of different people feel about having this very, very strange, unique character become president. so i don't expect to see them march out on stages and say, this is how i feel. there are people who do that, but not this particular group. the group of, quote, unquote, grown ups who are around donald trump, especially early in his term, i don't think they are coming out and doing that. >> i know they paid close attention, and i know that i'm always interested in what we don't know about i'm always interested in what we know about them. you know, a lot of what we know, we know that trump has disdain for people who are wounded serving the country. we know they still have this protectiveness for the institution. they revere. i trust that sunday you'll tell

us the story of what they endured personally. that feels like the story we haven't heard anything about. sandy, thank you so much for what you've written and talking to us. and amy, thank you for helping us understand this. i'm going to put you all on the spot on live tv and ask you to come back and spend a whole hour deepening our understanding on this issue. my thanks to all-of much thank you so much. jeffrey goldberg's book is a must read. it's called "on heroism." it's out right now. when we come house democrats have some big and important questions for the twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president on whether he accepted $10 million while running for president in office in 2016. r president in office in 2016.

donald trump once called egypt's president alsisi as, quote, his favorite dictator. now that relationship is coming under scrutiny. democrat members in the house oversight committee have launched an investigation. whether he accepted a $10 million campaign contribution from the egyptian president and the government. joining us now congressman

robert garcia of california along with congressman jaime raskin. tell me what you have to go on and what you're hoping to find out and from whom. >> well, thank you. this is just, of course, first another pattern of corruption from donald trump and his family. let's be really clear in 2016 we all remember donald trump was having a hard time putting his own money into the campaign. he finally ended up doing towards the end of that year. he put up an initially $10 million into his campaign. now we know around the same time the egyptian government and the president at the time were trying to transfer approximately $10 million into donald trump's own personal fund. and we know this because the fbi was actually investigating this. it's all been reported now by "the washington post." and so if the egyptian government was trying to get

donald trump $10 million and donald trump himself was putting in an initial $10 million into his campaign, there are questions there that need to be answered. and the simple question was donald trump and was he aware that the egyptian government, a dictator was trying to give him $10 million to help his own personal campaign? this is, of course, on top of we know $2 billion the saudi government gave the kushners two months after leaving the white house for their investment fund. this on top of the foreign intervention that was happening from multiple countries into the trump organization, spending millions at his hotels, at his properties. this is on top of what we found out today with the doj and russian interference in our election. this is a pattern of corruption that is happening. this is a pattern of donald trump and his companies and family likely benefitting from foreign governments, many adversaries of the u.s., and the oversight committee demanding an

investigation. we have questions that need answers. >> will you seek partners in the senate and subpoena members of robert mueller's team who i believe "the washington post" and "the new york times" reported had some awareness of the transactions you're talking about? >> absolutely. we're already having these conversations. we're very interested in ensuring we get to the bottom of this issue. we all know that the egyptian government already the relationship between donald trump has been very concerning to us. now we have this information that they were trying to get this money to donald trump likely for his own campaign. we have to have transparency on these very critical issues especially for a person that is currently running for president. time and time again donald trump and his family have tried to benefit from their relationships in government. this should be concerning not just to democrats but to republicans as well. the republicans in the house

continue to block basic information and investigations and trying to get to the bottom of what actually happened. absolutely the senate should be involved and absolutely another reason why the democrats need to win to control the house to ensure we get to bottom of these important investigations. >> and you're not ruling out a subpoena for members of mueller's investigative team? >> absolutely not. i think everything has got to be on the table, and i think we have to be very honest that there is enough evidence -- i mean if you read "the washington post" investigation there's enough evidence, there's enough questions the american public should be demanding these answers. >> i know we got short on time today. there was breaking news, but i would love to go through the reporting and have a longer conversation with you about where -- where those open doors are in your view as a congressional investigator. congressman garcia, thank you for your patience and time today. another break for us. we'll be right back. another break for us. we'll be right back. when i have customers come in and ask for something for memory,

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thank you so much especially on d