of the legislation the biden administration has tried to do. student debt. they did overturn roe. you know, evangelicals have had a lot of wins. you know, they elected a thrice married adulterer and have been rewarded for that hypocrisy. it'll be hard for them to leave them. they have no other alternative, right? >> right. >> there's some hope on the harris side they can create a permission structure for some evangelicals, but, you know, once you've made this -- once you've said that -- you know, once you've agreed to the hypocrisy, i think it's hard to walk it back. >> right. there is no other alternative for them on this side akin to what a jill stein or cornell west would be on the liberal side. molly jong-fast, thank you. appreciate it. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this

thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. i don't believe we have the luxury of writing in candidates' names, particularly in swing states. as a conservative, as someone who believes in and cares about the constitution, i have thought deeply about this. because of the danger that donald trump poses, not only am i not voting for donald trump, but i will be votingor kamala harris. [ applause ] >> former congresswoman liz cheney becoming the latest, high-profile republican to endorse vice president kamala harris for president. she made those comments yesterday during an appearance at duke university. the harris campaign welcomed cheney's support, calling her a, quote, patriot who loves this country and puts our democracy and our constitution first. >> you know, that's actually,

willie, that's what's at issue here. we're not talking really about ideology of either of these candidates. in large part, because donald trump has no ideology. they are both racing to the center, so the lines are getting blurred. but, you know, somebody in the republican party who may attack liz cheney and say, oh, my gosh, oh, so you're going to abandon your pro-life position? like donald trump? are you talking about like donald trump abandoning his right in front of our eyes? no, not really. she's just voting for democracy. she's voting so the constitutional republic endures with madisonian checks and balances. what about the southern border? are you going to abandon that issue? like donald trump who killed the toughest bill ever? i mean, you know --

>> the list goes on. >> what about the deficit? i thought you were a small government conservative? donald trump, biggest deficits ever, biggest debt ever, biggest federal budget ever when he was in office. ideolo because donald trump is not a conseconservative, someth i've been saying since 2015. he doesn't talk like a conservative. he's abandoned conservatives on the issues that matter to them the most. at this point, are you for a personality cult? you want to be in a personality cult, or do you want the republic to endure? that's what it comes down to. we have known it with madisonian democracy and checks and balances. liz cheney chose madisonian democracy, and it shouldn't be a shock. >> yeah, that's the interesting thing. it's not shocking that she's come out and said this, although she didn't have to make an affirmative vote for kamala harris the way she says she will. she could have said, i'm not

voting foraltrump. but she believes the race will be too close to throw away a vote, in her eyes. what is shocking, though, joe, yours and hers among actual conseratives now is a minority position. which is to say, most republicans, most people who call themselves conservatives now, or were conservatives but are really just trump supporters now, they are going along for the ride with all the things you just laid out. all the contradictions that donald trump presents to conservatives, all the flip-flopping on core issues like abortion, the debt and the deficit, immigration, all of those things. what she's saying is, not only has donald trump flip-flopped on that, but he represents something that is so counter not just to conseratism but to the american way of life, to democracy, she's got to stand in the door. i guess the only surprise to me over these last whatever it's been since january 6th when she officially really took the lead on that investigation along with many democrats, is that more republicans haven't taken that

or that was presented on january 6th. and said, "he's abandoned us. he has left us. he's led us down this disastrous path. we have no choice but to oppose him." she, adam kinzinger, other republicans, still in the minority among conservatives, among republicans. >> most of the conservative republicans seem to be afraid to open that door. liz cheney was unafraid. you alluded to what she said. one of the reasons she'll vote for kamala harris is because of the danger donald trump represents, the danger donald trump represents. it's kind of shocking given his record, given his rhetoric, given everything he posts on his crazy social media channel, truth social, whatever it's called. it's so vulgar, so opposite to what this country stands for, opposite to what people look forward to in an election. the election is about the future. donald trump is about the past. he represents a true danger to the fabric of this culture of ours, this society of ours, and

to the institutions that represent our government. >> well, you know, he talks about january 6th and the insurrection, talk about the fact that he said and his lawyers argue, right? usually when he says something outrageous, like he is going to be a dictator from day one, ople go oh, he's just joking. then, of course, he doubles down and proves he's not joking. those people are left looking stupid, as always. but his lawyer in court argued that he could assassinate political rivals, assassinate political rivals with s.e.a.l. team six and still, still not have the law arrest him. that he's immune from that. he talks about being a dictator from day one. talks about terminating the constitution. lied about the election results. tried to undermine american democracy for years. and then yesterday or the day before, suddenly, he says, wait a second, maybe i just lost by a

whisker. you know, on and on and on. you look, again, this is a party divided against itself, but you have liz cheney, a 95 acu lifetime rating. me, i had a 95 acu lifetime rating. that's higher than most everybody else. you had adam kinzinger who served the country proudly, was a conservative. david french. you have people who have been conservative their entire life saying, "we can't go there because this is not any other election. this is about the future of this country and how our government is n." >> well, we need a strong conservative republican party, and that is not donald trump or e party that he is leading. not even close. and a lot of people, we've met some republicans who, over the summer, spent time with them, voted for trump and can't

anymore because their belief is a vote for kamala harris is a vote for potentially the republican party ultimately having a chance to rebuild itself. but it only can do that without donald trump. >> that's what jonathan martin was -- we're going to be talking about this later. jonathan martin reported on this in "politico" yesterday. there are more and more republicans secretly hoping donald trump loses because they believe that's their best chance, and lose big, because that's their best chance to reform the republican party. make no mistake about it, wherever we go, wherever our friends go, we hear people spouting talking points from other news networks, lies, the most ridiculous lies that are disconnected from reality, that keeps them in this personality cult of donald trump's. this is going to be a really close election. make no mistake of it. >> nasty. yeah, speaking of lies, our top story today. also with us, managing

editor at the "bulwark," sam stein. did "way too early" for us. >> speaking of lies. >> here's sam. >> no. >> here's sam stein. >> the biden administration is accusing russia of attempting to interfere in the upcoming presidential election. the justice department has charged two employees of a russian-backed media network, accusing them of illegally funneling millions of dollars to a tennessee-based company to public propaganda videos online. the doj has also seized 32 internet domains. it says the russian government and russian actors have used it to influence the u.s. election. here's some of what attorney general merrick garland said yesterday about the actions the u.s. is taking. >> the american people are entitled to know when a foreign power is attempting to xploit our country's free exchange of ideas in order to send around

its own propaganda. the justice department's message is clear, we have no tolerance for attempts by authoritarian regimes to exploit our democratic system of government. we will be relentlessly aggressive in countering and disrupting attempts by russia and iran, as well as china or any other foreign malign actor to interfere in our elections and undermine our democracy. >> yeah. you know, willie, the thing that is so, well, obvious about this, not surprising, is we have all seen it for several years. there are people who are deliberately, knowingly or unknowingly promoting russian propaganda. propaganda that comes straight from the kremlin. people whose tv shows have been pushed by the kremlin to go on

rt because they are spouting russia propaganda points. there are people we've seen on twitter for years, well-known people with followers, who are clearly, clearly pushing russian propaganda points. of course, one of the great ironies about this is, not r really an irony, it's just cynicism and it is just, unfortunately, un-american, these are the same people that get out, a lot of them, that get out and talk about the russian hoax. oh, it's the -- oh! there's no -- come on, what are you talking about? there's no connection between, you know, this and russia. russia is not trying to -- always apologizing for russia. always apologizing for putin. always claiming that vladimir putin is not the bad guy, that zelenskyy is actually the bad guy. like the historian who said

churchill is the bad guy in world war ii, not adolph hitler. this has been going on for years. the kids call it gaslighting. now, we found out at least a few of these who are just straight on working for the russian government. again, either knowingly or unknowingly. >> these are the people online, like you say, joe, who have condemned what they call the russia hoax, despite all the information we had in front of us from the mueller report and now from this indictment. but also who are perceiveds truth tellers, outside the mainstream media. you're not getting the real story, the true story. come to my youtube channel, and i'll tell you the truth. it turns out, some of those prominent among them were complete dupes for the russian government. rt, the state-run media in russia, was directly feeding and spending a lot of money on american influencers on the conservative side to feed this nonsense, these lies into our political bloodstream. according to this indictment, one unnamed contribute we are

2.4 million followers on their youtube channel received $100,000 signing bonus along with performance incentives for making videos for a tennessee company. at was paid $100,000 per video. that's taking the propaganda and putting it on their outlets for americans to consume. let's bring in justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian and nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. good morning to you both. ken, i'll start with you. lay out, if you can, what doj says happened here and how exactly it worked. how this information got from rt, a russian state media organization, into the hands and onto the channels of these conservative influencers here in the u.s. >> good morning, willie. good morning, everyone. yeah, it's a remarkable scheme. $10 million is how much the justice department says was funneled into this one tennessee

company that's been identified as tenant media. these guys were making a lot of money. when i asked on a doj background call, what was the impact here? how many americans did this propaganda reach? they said, look, it's hard to gauge, but, like, this company in a short time amassed 16 million views for its videos on youtube. it had an effect. some experts are saying they only need one or two videos to go viral to have a real impact on american politics. so what's very clear from the indictment, despite, as you said, people calling this part of the russia hoax, you read the indictment and it's very clear. there is a mountain of evidence, that rt and the executives were funneling money secretly to these american conservatives wh tennessee, and they were then creating videos and taking their cues from rt, particularly the russian line on the ukraine war, and pumping it out to the american public without

mentioning that this was russian propaganda. now, the americans in the scheme are not charged. it's the two russians who are in russia. but the u.s. acted more broadly yesterday, beyond just this indictment. they seized 32 internet domains that have been used by the russians for propaganda. they also sanctioned other people, including the chief editor of rt who is a long-time putin crony. the good news here, the interesting thing about is it shows how much has changed since 2016 when the u.s. government and fbi essentially watched helplessly as the russians interfered in that election, both by spouting false narratives on social media and by hacking and dumping material into the bloodstream. now, they're much more proactive. this started less than a year ago. it launched in november 2023. it looks like the fbi was onto them almost from the start. they carefully amassed evidence, and now they're blowing the whistle on it. likewise, the iranian attempts

to hack into the campaigns, they flagged those right away. so far, we haven't seen great impact from that. it also shows how much more complicated the media ecosystem is than back in 2016. there are so many people now so prepared to believe what this russian propaganda is saying. then once the government flags it, go online now, the same people are saying this is a lie. you can't believe this justice department indictment. this is all part of the russia hoax. it's a tough prop, but the fbi and justice department are trying to get out there in front of it. >> it is fascinating as you read through the indictment how the propaganda that the russian government, that rt was pushing into these conservative channels echoes and went through to the leadership of the republican party, to talking points we heard from members of congress, even from donald trump, about what would happen if the united states continued to support ukraine, that american soldiers were going to die. we heard that from members of congress, talking about white people under attack in america. talking about transgender

people, all these wedge issues, clearly to help donald trump and obviously attack vice president harris and pdent biden, as well. >> yeah, it's remarkable. this is the thorny issue, right, for the law enforcement community. the first amendment protects that speech. it protects americans who want to lie or say whatever they want to say. the issue here, the reason this became a crime is because it was a st russian government effort, and they violated the foreign agents registration act, allegedly. you know, this old law that never used enforced, but now the government is breathing new life into, because there are these secret efforts by our adversaries to co-op, essentially, a huge chunk of the american political stratosphere and sort of inject their you know, it is really, really . tough for the government to get a handle on, but, yesterday, we saw what looks like their best efforts. they said, look, this investigation is continuing. we're going to keep at this up

and through the november election. >> keir simmons, you cover russia closely. what has been the reaction there? the justice department saying putin and the russian government favor trump winning the election. what have you heard from moscow? >> reporter: well, they're promising retaliation. they've railed about the treatment of rt, this russian broadcast network for a long time. we'll see what that retaliation is. joe talked at the top there about gaslighting, about trolling. we're seeing plenty of that. rt issuing a statement that literally says, ha, ha, ha, ha the editor in chief of rt, who ken was referring to there, her connection to the russian government, they've been hiding in plain sight. not even hiding. the justice department just a few years ago was clear about

what. two men were accused of the salisbury poisoning, alleged to be officers, they turned up those men on rt, interviewed by the editor in chief. we know about her connection to president putin. so any of that is really not a surprise. president putin was talking in vladivostok. we haven't heard specifically about the allegations, but he was asked about the u.s. elections. you know, you ask about what russia's view -- and by that, we mean president putin's view of what the american elections are. i think we have to go back to the trolling and the gaslighting that joe referred to at the beginning there. take a listen to what he had to say on this panel in russia's far east just today. >> long since i've called any leaders of the -- of europe or

the u.s., not against any conduct. we're not limiting them. yes, sometimes we exchange some kind of information using different channels. first of all through the foreign ministry. it's not for us to determine these elections f the u.s. people. i said that if we can name a favorite candidate, it was -- it used to be joe biden, but now he is not in the election campaign. he recommended to all his allies to support ms. harris, so that is what we are going to do. >> reporter: and there's laughter at the end there of those comments. that's the thing about president putin. you never know when he is trolling, when he is gaslighting, when he is being serious, when he is joking, and he rels in that. to say he supports kamala harris, but then he goes on in the comments to talk about her

laugh and referred to those, you know, maga talking points about kamala harris' laugh. so what does that tell you? i think one of the things it tells you is that, actually, putin's main objective is to try to sow chaos. he wants to see america struggling. that really is, no matter who is president, i think that is his guiding light, if you like. the other aspect is it is interesting, isn't it, he is paying very, very close attention. for him to talk about kamala harris'au in a public forum like that indicates that he's not just given a cursory look to the u.s. elections. he is digging in and reading stuff online. i think that tells you, in reality, how important the u.s. elections are to putin and to russia. >> yeah. that is some olympic level trolling. >> yeah. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you so much. >> thank you, keir. >> greatly appreciate it. >> we'll be following this

story. >> yeah. >> you know, mike barnicle, again, it hasn't made sense and i've always said it is something i told my kids, if something doesn't make sense, there's a reason. sort through it. we've seen what's happened here. but there have also been conservatives, former conservatives, who have taken a pro-putinine over the past several years. who darted wildly from where they used to be. progressives who have suddenly, over the past several years, taken a pro-putin line. and you sit there, and with a couple of them, i was going, how obvious can you be? parroting russian talking points. but they've done it and done it without shame. at least in this instance, find out they've done it making $100,000 per video. >> you know, joe, the interesting aspect of this story

and the way it's playing out, and just from the reporting we listened to from keir simmons and others, is this is an infection implanted into the american political system. if you talk to people, ordinary people, they will bemoan the fact that our state of politics today is just so polarized, that both parties hate one another. no one is cooperating with one another. there's no across the aisle cooperation the way there used to be 20, 30 years ago. all of that is true. but the point is that it's done and it's a deadly sequence committed by russia. if you listen to many conservative republicans, not all of them, but many conservative republicans in the house and the senate, they do indeed parrot russian propaganda. they dress it up. they change the verbiage. but it is russian propaganda, and it lasts. the infection lasts. it's one of the reasons people,

i think, despise our politics today. average americans walking around saying, you know, they can't get together. they hate each other. well, they don't hate each other, but one side more than the other is parroting russian propaganda. >> and, sam, people have said long before this indictment, they've actually got statements from some shows and then statements from russia and compared t two. it's almost a direct lift. so, yeah, you actually have conservatives, a lot of so-called conservatives that have been parroting these talking points of putin. you have conservative people, conserative organizations, people that used to be actually significant in the conservative movement. they're being basically paid off by orban in hungary. what do they do? they go over, parrot pro-putin,

pro-orban, anti-western democracy statements, and these people and, yes, some in hungary get paid for it. >> yeah. i thought willie touched on the most interesting point here, which is these are the people who tend to be the most vocal, saying that you're all delusional if you think russia is trying to influence the u.s. elections. this is all a hoax. it turns out that, perhaps unwittingly, they were part of it, right? the other thing that stuck out to me is this is like a relatively small investment that has a pretty big impact for russia, if this indictment is to be believed. i mean, a couple tens of millions of dollars, and you get to pump this stuff into the american bloodstream. you get to reach millions upon millions of people, and you get to basically turn the rhetoric of major political party in your direction. that's a really good roi. and this is just how we will

operate in the future because our media ecosystem, our information ecosystem is diffused. there aren't really guardrails or trusted actors anymore. so it's really easy to get this stuff outre and change the conversation, whereas, you know, pre-internet age, this stuff wouldn't have been possible. >> miike i said, you have way too many people that just believe absolutely everything they see on other tv networks and believe absolutely everything they read on twitter. >> and they live and breathe that disinformation. that is the sound track of their lives. >> it is. all right. we're going to turn now to yesterday's deadly shooting at a high school in georgia. it happened in the morning at apalachee high school, about 45 miles away from atlanta. police say a 14-year-old student, 14, killed four people and injured at least nine others. it's believed he used what

authorities say is a, quote, ar platform style weapon. students and teachers had to shelter in class rooms and were eventually evacuated to the football stadium. two students died in the gunfire, mason schermerhorn and christian angulo. two teachers were also killed, richard aspinwall and christina irimie. two resource officers found the suspect minutes after shots were fired. the suspect surrendered immediately and was taken into custody. he is now being charged as an adult with murder. joining us now from winder, georgia, is nbc news correspondent. what are officials telling you? >> reporter: good morning. one of the most significant developments overnight we discovered is that the suspect was actually known to law enforcement previously.

the fbi was aware of him since may of last year when he was a 13-year-old student here. they even conducted interviews with his father, who said to them that he did keep hunting rifles inside of their home. but the suspect, now 14-year-old colt gray, didn't have unsupervised access to those weapons. now, here in georgia, there is no minimum age requirement as far as who can have access to rifles or shotguns, but, of course, in this scenario, we know that authorities are telling us that the weapon that was used was actually an ar style weapon, as you mentioned. we don't have any further information about exactly how 14-year-old colt gray got the weapon. there is also no indication about what his motive could be. we did ask authorities if he knew the victims in this shooting, and they said that they weren't sure if there was potentially a direct connection between the shooter and the

victims. the school here will be closed for the rest of the week as authorities will be conducting interviews with the suspect, his family members, and, of course, eyewitnesses. they did mention they already have been speaking to colt gray's family ers, b they couldn't give us any further details or insight as to a motive. there was a vigil that was held here last night. of course, the community is mourning. governor kemp also visited the school last night. let's take a lten to what he had to say. >> this is everybody's worst nightmare. and i just want to offer my sincere condolences and our thoughts and prayers to the families that have lost loved ones. for those that are injured and continuing to fight through just a tragic time for really this whole community that's been affected by today's actions. >> reporter: and of the remaining nine gunshot victim,

we know one is a teacher and the other eight are students. they are all expected to make a full recovery. willie? >> nbc's priya sridhar, live in winder, georgia, thank you so much. before we get back to the human tragedy that is the school tragedy, we have a couple law enforcement points to make on your beat, ken. the resource officers inside the school, according to the timeline, engaged this kid reallyckly and got him to drop his weapon and surrender before he could do any more danger and take any more lives. also, some contact we heard from the georgia bureau of investigation last year with this young man when he was 13 years old about making online threats. what happened there? >> that's right, willie. the fbi and jackson county sheriff's office put out a joint statement last night acknowledging that in may of last year, the fbi's national threats operation center got a series of online tips, anonymous tips, that there were threats made on a gaming site about

potentially someone carrying out a school shooting. they traced the threats back to this individual. the jackson county sheriff interviewed his father. his father said that he had rifles, hunting rifles in the home, but that the child did not have unsupervised access. they closed the case. they found no probable cause to take further action. this is heartbreaking and infuriating because it's happened time and time again. in fairness to law enforcement, there are a lot of people who make threats who never carry them out. they're inundated with threats, threat information. we don't see the ones that don't come to fruition. but time and time again, in these mass shootings, it turns out that the shooter had previous contact with law enforcement and, in many cases, the fbi. i reported on a school shooting in new mexico back in 2017 where the fbi actually sent agents to interview the shooter and the future shooter and his parents. did a threat assessment, decide head didn't pose a threat, left,

took no further action, and a year later, he shot two students at a school in new mexico. in this case, you have to wonder, was the school even notified about a potential threat? there are things that can be done short of arresting a person. was this individual, this family referred to mental health services? were local law enforceme warranted to be on the lookout, to provide extra scrutiny? we don't know the answers to the questiut too often in these cases, the answer has been no. when you talk to experts, they say there is a breakdown here. there is a real lack of coherent threat assessments in these cases. because so often, there's what ey call leakage. before an event like this, the troubled individual who carries it out tells people about it, lls people about his or her ambitions to conduct a mass shooting. often, thehoriti don't take the right action and then tragedy ensues, willie. >> you know, the question, mika, really is, between last year and this year, where did the ar

weapon come from? the father claimed he had hunting rifles, and that was it. the son had no access to them. well, the son had access to an ar style rifle, and the question is, where did that happen? did the father leave it in a position where his child, who had these issues before, had access to it? i mean, that's, more and more, the question we're going to start to think. >> there are now cases where parents are being tried. >> right. >> in aituationike this. >> yeah, and this is just yet the latest in school shootings. >> what is it, day one of school? >> ar-15s or ar platform weapons used to kill children. just a reminder, again, that gun deaths are the number one cause of deaths for children in america.

as we've said before and as kamala harris said yesterday, this is a choice that republican legislators make every single day, to not pass meaningful gun safety laws. >> oh, joe, this is not the time to talk autthat that's what they always say. >> the problem is, you know, they used to say that, but the problem is, they say, oh, you should wait a week or -- >> no. >> well, there's so many mass shootings in america now. >> it's an epidemic. >> 1,708 young people died in acts of gun violence last year. again, the number one cause of death for children in america. why? because it's a choice. look at that. 2018, 336. 2020, 610 children. keep going. in '23, 656 children.

385 in '24. >> nbc's ken dilanian, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we'll speak to you again soon, i'm sure. still ahead on "morning joe," the presidential candidates have agreed on the ground rules for next week's debate in philadelphia. we'll have the details on that. plus, some top republicans are secretly hoping donald trump loses the election. that new reporting is ahead. we'll also dig into the new plan for the economy laid out yesterday by vice president kamala harris and how it marks the break from the biden administration. >> had a fox commentator praising it. >> yeah. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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oooooohhh... automatic sashimi! earn cash back that totically justs to how you spend with the citi custom cash® card. [mind blown explosion noise] we're still gathering information about what happened, but we know there were multiple fatalities and injuries. and, you know, our hearts are with all the students and the teachers and their families, of course. and we are grateful to the first responders and the law enforcement that were on the scene. but this is just a senseless tragedy on top of so many senseless tragedies. and it's just outrageous that every day in our country in the united states of america, that parents have to send their children to school worried about whether or not their child will come home alive. it's senseless. we have to stop it. and we have to end this epidemic

of gun violence in our country once and for all. you know, it doesn't have to be this way. it doesn't have to be this way. so we will continue, of course, to send our prayers and our thoughts to the families and all those who were affected. >> it is an epidemic, and it is an epidemic that is continuing unapated. unabated. the numbers i showed you were not deaths from mass shootings. they were actual mass shootings in the united states. the numbers are staggering. each year since 2019, more mass shootings than days of the year. please tell me, if we can't talk about mass shootings, we can't talk about how to prevent them, if we can't talk about how to slow these numbers down, to bring them down like any sane party, political party would

want to do, and republicans n't want us to talk about mass shootings after a mass shooting, well, that, of course, gives us no days of the year to talk about mass shootings. mike, we've seen this fake machoism in the republican party that has been underlined and has used guns, mainly ar-15s and weapons that were designed for warfare, we have seen them used in political ads. and republican congressman mike collins who represents the district where the high school is located took to social media to send his thoughts and prayers to the families and victims. but if you're curious, if you're just curious what's out there on the internet for people in his district to see, here's a video he posted online when he ran for congress in 2022, seen holding

an ar-style weapon, an assault style weapon, before shooting the gun, alongside the caption, "send me to washington. i'll blow up the democratic's coverup." >> georgians are sick and tired of spineless politicians who won't fight for trump and fix the elections. they won't do it? mike collins will. [ gunshot ] send me to washington. i'll fix this election. i'll get to the bottom of 2020, and i will fight for trump's america first agenda. >> ah, god. >> we've seen that far too often. people posing with military style weapons, assault style

weapons, military weapons and weapons originally designed for war, mike. they use them as props. we've seen other members of congress using ar-15s as props. using them, you know -- >> christmas cards. >> christmas cards. having their kids holding ar-15s. having pins on their lapels, ar- 15. again, they wond wrer wonder whether this culture comes from. go down the last decade or so. more often or not, there are ar-style weapons, developed for warfare, developed as a more efficient killing machine in the jungles of vietnam, more than what our soldiers were carrying around there. >> it is exhausting listening to you talk about this. >> thank you. >> and i'll tell you why. >> yeah. >> we've talked about it many

times before, andhere aren't many guarantees in this life of ours, but we can guarantee everyone watching right now that we will be talking about another mass shooting within the next few weeks, months. it will happen. it's designed to happen. our politics designs it to happen. e, whatoe is talking about, ar-15 -- well, we don't know whether it was an ar-15, but it was an ar-style weapon. i don't know how far this child, and he is a child, 14 years of age, interrogated when he was 13 about the threats he made, how did he get the weapon into school? did he walk to school? did he get a ride from school? an ar-style weapon is not something you put in your backpack with school books. how'd he get it into the school? there are so many questions. the one question we can answer is the one juxtaposed. when was the next massacre take place in a school? >> it is inevitable we are going

to be at this place sooner rather than later and mourning senseless deaths that didn't have to happen. you know, there is a difference between freedom and chaos. there can be gun rights advocates who are saying this is freedom, but this is just descended into total chaos. the fact that, in georgia, one of the most permissive states when it comes to guns, no background check, which the majority of americans want. there are no laws to secure your gun. there's open carry. i just remember my late, great father, kelly jordan, and his strong gun rights advocacy. he'd always say, more guns makes you safer. but this is an example, no, it doesn't. no, it doesn't, dad. you look at how the plenty -- there's so much, the multitude of guns, the access. this is just chaos. this is not freedom when it comes to gun rights. >> guys, another element to this that always comes up in these

stories, the tragic deaths of two 14-year-olds -- as mike said, those are kids. a 14-year-old who got the weapon somehow. we'll find out later. you have these two teachers who died and another who was shot. as hard as it already is to be a teacher in the united states of america, we are now asking them and have asked them for 25 years now, as part of the job, to get between a gunman and your student. that's part of the job. learn how to barricade the door. if a gunman comes in, you put your body between the gunman and the student. two teachers did that. both math teachers. christina irimie and richard aspinwall. joe, richard aspinw was the math teacher and also the defensive coordinator on the high school football team. i don't know what happened yesterday. we'll learn in the course of time, but my gut tells me that that guy, and the other teacher, did what they had to do to try

to save the lives of those kids. >> he should be alive today. he should be preparing his team for, you know, their friday night football game. and be worrying about developing kids and their character over the next year and for years to come. he's not going to be able to do that. it's because of the madness, because of the chaos that continues. you know, elise talked about her father. i think mr. jordan, probably like a lot of people i grew up with, who grew up as i've said a million times here, grew up nra members, who started hunting with their fathers and grandfhers whethey were young children, who were taught gun safety, who understood the importance of gun safety, who told me, you know, whether it's in first baptist church in pensacola or somewhere else, you know, at a diner, you know, we

don't need ar-15s to shoot deer. we don't need ar-15s for what we do when we go out hunting. it's madness. i will say also, and this pears bears repeating, the overwhelming majority of americans support gun safety laws. whether you're talking about universal background checks, whether you're talking about red flag laws, whether you're talking about keeping guns secure and safe. by the way, you go through most homes in the south, at least that i went through, they have shotguns. they were locked up. their guns were secure. guns were secured. but that's not the culture now. there's open carry and all of this. again, just absolute madness, and it is extremism that makes this country less safe. you know, i can't imagine what it's like, but i hear what it's

like. you hear what it's like from young mothers and fathers who are sending their children to school the first day. somebody very close to us wept openly sending her children to preschool the first day. not because she was going to miss them terribly, which she was, but the fear of gun violence. >> right. >> so many times, they've seen and she saw growing up, you send a child to school, are you going to see that child when they return? >> think about the reality today's young people are living in. my daughters were little girls when sandy hook happened. they grew up in the age of being afraid to go to school. the age of drills. they would do drills, hide under their desks, learn how to confront gunman. i can't tell you how this has shaped the outlook of millions of young people, of generations

now. >> yeah. >> who go to school with the concept in their mind, very realistically, that they could be blown to bits. >> willie, when, you know -- >> kamala harris says it doesn't have to be this way. it doesn't. other countries don't have this problem. it actually doesn't have to be this way. >> right. >> but you have to care about it. >> and when we -- willie, when i talk to my kids after school, i talk to my kids during the day, you know, we're not talking about astrophysics. we're talking about football. we're talking about baseball. yesterday, i got a call from two of my children, asking me what happened in georgia today, dad? >> yeah. >> there's no answer. but our kids are haunted by it like a generation ago we were haunted by the specter of nuclear war, except this, this,

the enemy is from within, and it is an enemy that can be stopped. but there are a handful of extremists that control a political party in america that stops the most sensible gun reforms, that 70%, 80%, 90% of americans support. >> yeah. part of the frustration all the time in these school shootings is there is not a law technically that would have stopped it. you laid it out well. you have a 14-year-old kid in a house full of guns who somehow got access to it. the father said last year when the fbi first spoke to the family, after the online threats, he said, i only have hunting weapons. my son has no access to them. hunting weapons can mean ar-style weapons depending on what you're hunting. f feral pigs or something, it can be used. >> yeah. >> it's the extent of which your

kids aren't surprised by this, they aren't really shocked. these drills are a part of the school year, the way we had fire drills or duck and cover drills. it's part of life. they see it and hear about it, and they accept the possibility that it could visit their school someday. the best they can hope for is that they'll be ready when it does. you have these poliies like, you know, run, hide, fight. run if you can. then hide. barricadehe door. and then fight. that's a stated policy, which is throw a chair at the guy or something. fight. >> against an ar-15. >> we're telling these 14-year-olds to fight in the hallways of their schools. >> okay. coming up, what economists at goldman sachs are saying about the possible impications of a trump victory in november compared to a harris win. you might be surprised. "morning joe" will be right back.

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when a political candidate comes up with what i think is a good idea, i call it a good idea. $50,000 tax credit to start-up small businesses, coupled with less red tape, i have to say, that is a good idea. regardless of her other tax ideas. >> stewart barney with the praise for kamala harris' small business tax credit plan. under the proposal, tax deductions would dramatically

increase from $5,000 to $50,000 for small business start-up expenses. harris set a goal of receiving 25 million new small business applications in her first term, up from the record 19 million that were filed during the biden administration. meanwhile, economists at goldman sachs gamed out the potential economic implications of a trump or harris victory in november. quoting from their assessment, "we estimate that if trump wins in a sweep or with divided government, the hit to growth from tariffs and tighter immigration policy would outweigh the positive fiscal impulse from maintaining most tax cuts. however, should harris win and democrats secure both of the chambers of congress, new spending and expanded

middle-income tax credits would slightly more than offset the higher rates." they added, if harris won in a divided government scenario, the effects of policy changes would be small and neutral on net. >> i want to go to steve rattner in a second, but i'll go to sam stein first. sam, of course, none of this will matter to people who are brainwashed and in a political cult, but you would think it'd matter to people on wall street that can see. goldman sachs, they're not in the political business. they're in the business of making money. they hired and they get fired by being right when they make these forecasts. this, once again, proves what bill clinton had said. for some reason, the so-called pro-business party has a worse record, a much, much weaker record on the economy through the years than do the demoats. here, goldman sachs says, looks like the case again.

>> right. i mean, you have to either - you look at this through two lenses. one is, what policies would you most prefer for business? the other way, which party would do most to reduce taxes? if you're modus operandi is can i get the tax rate lower? yeah, probably vote for donald trump. he promises lower tax rates, promises to keep the corporate rate lower. kamala harris is not going as far as joe biden would have gone, but she wants to raise taxes for the rich. if that's what you vote on, yes, vote for trump. but objectively speaking, on the other matters, the record is clear. job growth. as bill clinton noted, job growth has happened under democratic administrations. these business policies, as goldman sachs forecasts, are more -- they're better business policies outlined by harris than it is for trump.

i'll say this. we've gone through 2 1/2, 3 years of people, especially on the republican side, warning about, and rightfully so, inflation. the most inflationary policies being proposed in the current campaign are enhanced tariffs and immigration restriction. because that would affect the amount of supplies of goods coming to the country and severely hamper the employee -- number of employees we have in our country. if your primary concern is inflation, it's pretty clear, too, you should vote for harris. >> right. and one economist after another has come out and said that. let's bring in right now former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. steve, you're looking at how donald trump's policies would do more harm to the states that support him the most. before we get there, i do want to talk about taxes. let's be very clear here. so donald trump and kamala harris both want to raise taxes. kamala harris is talking about

actually raising taxes on corporations and the wealthiest of americans. she's talking about, though, giving a big tax cut, big tax credit to small business owners that will benefit entrepreneurs. donald trump, as "the wall street journal" editorial page said months ago, donald trump has proposed the biggest tax increases in this election through the form of tariffs. who do tariffs hurt? they hurt consumers. they hurt middle class america. they don't hurt the rich. they hurt consumers. they hurt middle class americans who can't afford the trump tariff tax that they're going to get hit with. >> yeah. the trump tariffs are, as you say, actually a huge tax increase. it'd cost the average american family something like $1,600 a year. even worse than that, it would affect the people at the bottom in terms of the percentage income they would lose more than

the people at the top. it's what we call regressive, favoring the rich over the poor, as well as, as sam said and many other people said, rsing inflation and having a negative impact on the economy. i think there were two things about harris' announcement yesterday that are worth pointing out. the first, unlike trump, who seems to make policy on the fly wherever he is, ivf, we may pay for it, may not, whatever, she's starting to have detailed plans on housing, taxes, small business, and so forth. she's running a campaign with policy, unlike the former president and except for these off-the-cuff kind of things. secondly, her proposal would increase taxes on the althy, unlike trump's, which would decrease taxes on the wealthy. try to get people to pay their fair share. tr to take a stab at addressing our deficit, which you and i talked a lot about. trump has no plan for that. what you saw yesterday for harris is the beginning of a plan for that. >> good. let's talk about the first chart.

blue states pay. >> generally speaking, what most people don't understand, if you look at who gets and who gives among the states, you'll find the blue states give a lot more to washington than they get from washington. which is ironic, given that you have a republican president who, in effect, wants to reduce what the disadvantage that the red states have and incre it to the blue states. but let's take a look at this chart. if you look at the net of what people pay versus what they get, you see at the far end of the spectrum are all blue states. they pay more to washington than they get from washington. if you look over here on the right, you'll see these are almost all red states, with the exception of virginia and maryland, which are special cases because they have military installations and so forth in their states. this is what you see happening. most of this happens on the revenue side. residents of blue states earn a lot more than residents of red states so they pay more in taxes. roughly $3,000 a year per

capita. difference between the blue statesndhe red states. but they don't get back anymore. >> steve, that's fascinating. what you're saying is, there's income redistribution here? >> exactly. >> the income redistribution is coming from blue states, and it is nefitting the very people who go around yammering about socialism all the time, when they are the beneficiaries of income redistribution from blue states to red states. so if anybody is benefitting from a, quote, socialist redistribution scheme, how fascinating, it's mainly red states. >> joe, you said it better than i said. the blue states are wealthier than the red states, and so in our system, where we try to make people more equal, yes, government has tilted in favor of the red states. the same government that trump would like to reduce or dismantle. >> yeah. what about education fund?

again, so many leaders in these red states talk about, oh, it's socialism, socialism. then they take money from blue states. the income redistribution goes that way, and they also complain about education. oh, education. it's washington, d.c., doing this, doing that. yet, overwhelmingly, it's the red states that have been the greatest beneficiary of education funding. >> exactly. let's talk about two pieces of education funding. first, let's talk about head start. head start primarily benefits children in rural communities, lower-income communities and so forth. it's not surprising the top funded state under head start is mississippi, which gets $56.84 per resident back. it is west virginia. it is louisiana. it's kentucky. it's wyoming. red state average, $22.42. top blue state, michigan, $25.77, is actually below the fifth red state, wyoming.

the average is down here at $17.22. this is this is a program that project 2025 would kill. so the republicans that are, in effect, proposing a policy that would actually hurt their con constituents more than other states. the other thing is teachers. they're funded by title one. the largest percentage of teachers supported is louisiana at 12%. you have mississippi. you have alabama. you have florida. you've got new mexico, arizona, nevada. swing states and battle states benefitting. it'll disproportionately hurt their own residents. >> some want to get rid of the department of education all together. your final chart is the inflation reduction act, which we've heard donald trump and others rail against.

how is it boosting investment? >> this is a program mostly proposed by the democrats. it is, again, ironically a program that would help the -- has helped so far the red states more than the blue states. first, let's look at the ira in general. inflation reduction act has sent, as you'd expect, as we'd hoped, clean investments soaring. it is actually way above anything we thought was going to happen. huge outpouring of investment in everything from wind farms to solar panels to home insulation to all the things we hope will save energy. look where the investment has come. this is through a tax credit system. this is not bureaucrats sending the money there. this is where the action is. you can see in the red states, the amount of investment in this from the two years before ira to the two years post ira has gone up 84%. $57 million to $105 million. it's gone down in blue states. i'm not quite sure why, but it has. the vast beneficiaies of the ira, which the republicans also tried to kill r the red state.

>> "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, thank you. elise jordan, your thoughts on this? you're from mississippi. a state where i guess joe biden would say, i'll see ya at the groundbreaking. >> there is a republican administration in mississippi that would love to toss out any funding that they get from the federal government. you look at how they've refused consistently to expand medicaid and bring in billions of dollars. head start is one of the most successful public policy programs in the country in terms of starting children out on the right foot. a great investment, actually. i believe it is something like a three-fold investment, what you spend on early childhood. so these niche tinitiatives are important to rural america. you know, it is really kind of a bulwark against one party rule in states like mississippi. >> yeah. mike barnicle, the hypocrisy is just overwhelming.

of course, so much about what the trump republican party does is hypocritical. but they sneer and are always talking about socialism, yet most of those red states, as steve rattner showed, something we've already known. it's the blue states that have money taken from them to fund red states. that's called income redistribution. >> oh. >> they take that money, as mika said, it's just like the yahoos that voted against joe biden's inflation reduction act, then they go to the groundbreaking going, "look what i've done for you." it goes on and on. medicaid, they shout, they yell about medicaid. medicaid not only helps economically disadvantaged people in their state, it helps elderly people with nursing homes. it helps a whole range of

americans that these republican governors need their votes for. again, the question is, why is it that they're allowed to continue to get away with this outrageous hypocrisy? >> i don't know. i do not know. because it's prevalent. it's two things. one particular set of programs they're opposed to are life changing in terms of medicaid, things like that. the other bulk of programs they are universally opposed to are life changing, as well. head start, educational programs for kids in rural states, in poor states. we've seen the red states versus blue states. blue states are carrying the load financially. yet, the republicans, as you pointed out, and it is one of the most hypocritical things that occurs each and every year since the ira was passed, is republican legislators going to

bridge openings or rail improvements, whatever. an announcement ofs has changed now, this is better, saying, yes, this is what we want, and they voted against it. >> there you go. >> it is replete. replete with hypocrisy. >> rlete with hypocrisy. willie, you know, california, which we've talked about their problems with crime, talked about their quality of life problems, that's got to get fixed. you know, you can't just talk about it. they need to fix it. they need to not only change their laws, they need to make sure the new laws they put in place have teeth to it. quality of life. quality of life returns to that state. when it comes to economics, you've got republicans always talking about it being socialist paradise. california is the worst place to work. california this, california that. well, we've said it on this show all the time. california has the fourth

largest gdp in the world. more people choose to work in california and make money in california than in great britain, as far as just financially profitable, than great britain, than india. you can go down the list. california has the fourth largest gdp. you know whase this socialist paradise does? gives more money away to red states than red states. again, rank hypocrisy up and down these socialist red states that rail against socialism while taking money from blue states. >> yeah. i mean, you see the benefits. steve laid it out well. something like head start, of these programs, it's not to say that the government is bad and spending is bad in all cases. it's not to say it can't be reined in either. but these are programs that benefit a lot of people in those

states. people who want to get rid of head start, of the department of education, it has a big impact. silicon valley, california, the ceos saying it is a socialist paradise are worth, i don't know, $100 billion or something like that. >> exactly. >> the companies ty created in california. >> oh, and willie, excuse me, but they also, guess what? they rail, these libertarian bros wail about the handt, and they're first in time to get corporate welfare for the businesses. the big ones, first in line for corporate welfare in the form of funds, in the form of partnerships with the feds, in the form of tax breaks. >> mm-hmm. >> you name it. they believe, you know, in capitalism when it comes to poor single mothers. they believe in socialism when it comes to their o multinational corporations.

>> well said. we've seen it time and again. another big story this morning, gu, the biden administration announcing a sweeping set of actions to tackle a major russian government backed effort to influence the 2024 u.s. presidential election. this coming from the justice department, actually. nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk has the details. >> reporter: with two months to go before the election, the biden administration says it is cracking down on foreign countries trying to influence opinion in the u.s. the target, russia. the doj announcing the seizure of 32 internet domains used or sponsored by the russian government, it says, to spread bogus news stories. >> these websites were designed to appear to american readers as if they were major u.s. news sites. >> reporter: the doj also indicting two employees of the russia-funded media company rt, which was banned in the u.s. following the inflation of russia. >> since at least last year, rt has used people living and working inside the u.s. to

facilitate contracts with american media figures. >> reporter: the two russian nationals are accused of running a $10 million scheme to fund and direct a u.s. company producing videos, mostly directed to the publicly stated goals of the russian government, according to the indictment. >> the u.s. company stephanie mentioned in her report produced 2,000 youtube videos that racked up more than 16 million views since launching in november of last year. according to the indictment, about $8.7 million was paid to the production companies of three online commentators. one of them who prosecutors say has 2.4 million followers on youtube received $400,000 a month plus a $100,000 signing bonus. that commentator has to make just four videos a week for that cash. joining us now, democratic member of the foreign relations committee, senator chris murphy of connecticut. senator, good to have you with us this morning. lots to talk about. let's start right here. what iour reaction to what

you read in those more than 30 pages of the justice department indictment, laying out chapter and verse how a state media organization in russia, therefore the russian government, funneled money to conservative influencers to spout their propaganda here in the u.s.? >> this is a stunning indictment, and it really shows potentially how deeply integrated russia is with the maga media environment. this company that is described in tennessee as a pretty well-known maga media company, it has on its payroll many of the top pro-trump voices in this country. they were knowingly conspiring with russia, using millions of dollars to put content online, and to pay a number of pro-trump commentators that, you know, have been pushing an anti-harris and pro-russia narrative for

months. unfortunately, this may be the tip of the iceberg. it is possible that there are many other mainstream conservative websites that are in the pocket of the russian government. i'm glad that the justice department is on top of this. i'm glad that the notice is now out to any other maga media companies that may be taking russian money, that this is not going to be permitted and that you're going to be held accountable if you're doing business with vladimir putin. >> senator, we want to also talk to you about yesterday's school shooting in georgia that left four people dead and a 14-year-old suspect in police custody. before we discuss it, nbc news correspondent priya sridhar has the latest. [ sirens ] >> reporter: four in winder, georgia, after officials say a suspected shooter opened fire in apalachee high school.

>> 14-year-old student here at the high school. again, he has been taken into custody. he will be charged with murder, and he will be tried as an adult. >> reporter: this video capturing terrifying moments after gunfire rang out. police say deputies and emergency medical personnel rushed to the high school at about 10:23 a.m. in response to an active shooting. the school put on lockdown. >> it was just like a loud boom. >> reporter: authorities say the gunfire left four dead, two teachers and two students, and nine injured. >> our school resource officer engaged him, and the shooter quickly realized that if he did not give up, it would end with an officer involved shooting, an ois. he got on the ground, and the officer took him into custody. >> reporter: a teacher was shot but is in stable condition, according to his daughter. >> my heart hurts for the kids

and the community, but i want to make it clear, hate will not prevail in this county. love will prevail over what happened today. >> reporter: students returned back to school in august. sophomordescribing the terrifying moments. >> i didn't know what was going to happen. because you could hear the gunfire right down the hall. i was shaking. scared. >> i thought i was going to die. >> reporter: this student says she was shaken up and scared. how does it feel that this happened at your high school? >> i'm shocked. i'm shocked that something like this could happen here. >> reporter: panicked parents rushed to the school, later reuniting with their children at the football field. >> my daughter called me at work. screaming that there was a shooter at apalachee. >> reporter: president biden briefed today, writing, "jill and i are mourning the deaths of those whose lives were cut short due to more senseless gun

violence." president trump said, these cherished children were taken from us far too soon by a sick and deranged monster." vice president harris saying at a rally -- >> it is sick. we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country once and for all. >> senator, i wish, i really wish that we were on here to continue to talk about the russian propaganda scheme. but we're not. we're here to talk about an american epidemic, an epidemic that has been going on for decades in this cotry. you represent a state and citizens who suffered a tragic loss that endures each and every day. the frustration level that you must be dealing with in terms of trying to get something done finally, how do you do it? how do you deal with the frustration level in a country, in a government where the saying majority rules is a joke?

majority rules doesn't happen. >> yeah, i listen to that clip and hear this wonderful sentiment, that love is going to prevail, hate will not prevail. well, that's not true if you look your kid in the eye and tell them you're going to do nothing about the fact that 14-year-olds, 18-year-olds, 20-year-olds can get their hands on a weapon, ar-15, that is literally designed to assassinate as many people as possible. it's not a coincidence all these mass shootings turn to the same weapon. they pick that weapon up because that weapon is literally designed for mass slaughter. you don't need that weapon to hunt. you don't need that weapon to protect your home. you need that weapon if you want to commit mass murder. part of the reason that these shootings continue to happen, part of the reason these shootings continue to be so lethal, is because states like georgia have made a decision to put the profits of the g

industry ahead of the health and safety of our kids. that is not love. my kid yesterday called me and told me that, coincidentally, his school went into ckdown, his public high school went into lockdown yesterday because of a bomb threat. i asked him how all this makes him feel, watching the scenes in georgia, living through another lockdown. he kind of shrugged it off. he just said, we're used to it, right? we're used to the idea that when we go to school every day, there's a chance we may not come back. that baked in trauma explains why our kids are having so much trouble today. it's not just social media. it is the constant threat of violence that we choose to inject into their lives. so we have a choice this election. kamala harris said she'll make this a priority, work to ban the ar-15s. she'll work to make sure everybody goes through a background check before buying a gun. donald trump told you not only is he going to do nothing, he'll repeal the progress we've made.

mass shootings are down this year compared to last year. it doesn't feel that way, but we passed a law two years ago, making it harder for bad people to get their hands on a gun. you want to stop the mass shootings? you have kamala harris who says she'll make this a priority. you have donald trump who says he'll put the profits of the gun industry first. that's an election issue that a lot of parents are going to pay attention to this november. >> senator, good morning. good to see you. you're right, we were talking earlier, i have two teenagers, as well. the extent to which this doesn't shock them is the most shocking part. they've grown up in this environment where this is a possibility. we always hear in these shootings, in a case like this, a young kid not old enough to buy a gun by law, the defeatism. what are you going to do? his dad had guns. many owned legally. the kids got access, troubled young man got access, went to school and shot.

we shouldn't punish all gun owners because one kid who was sick got his dad's gun. what do you say to those arguments? >> it is difficult to make policy based on one particular shooting. in this case, it looks like the young man got his hands on his parent's gun, but there are plenty of other mass shootings where a young man walks into a gun store and walked out with a weapon. there are plenty of instances where the owner of the firearm pulled the trigger. we could have denied that individual the gun, or we could have had a red flag law that allowed somebody to take that gun away. but here is a policy that can work. in connecticut, we've got a safe storage law. we actually require parents who have young kids in the house to lock up their weapons. there's a penalty if you don't. georgia doesn't have that law. so it isn't as if there aren't interventions that would make a difference. i always think it's a mistake to, you know, make policy based on one mass shooting.

but whether it be background checks, whether it be strong red flag laws, whether it be banning the weapons, whether it be requiring parents to lock up the weapons, it's not as if we have a shortage of policies. it's not as if we don't know what to do. we know what to do. it's state it like georgia, run by republicans, run by donald trump supporting republicans, choose to d nothing. because they care about the gun industry more than the held of our kids. that's a choice for voters. you want to continue to have the gun industry in charge of your state? you want to continue to have the shootings happen? elect people that advertise they're going to do nothing. or you can choose to support people who go out there and run for election and tell you they're going to put our kids' safety first. >> yeah. you know, like the senator said, these are choices. you talk to -- again, i grew up around gun-owning, god-fearing americans. they believed and practiced safe

storage. you know? they believe in universal background checks. overwhelming majority of americans do. majority of republicans do, gun owners do believe in universal background checks and red flag laws. all of these things. safetorage laws. i mean, there's so many things where americans are united. that would make a difference, at least on the margins. yet, a small subset of extremists, lobbyists in washington, d.c., impact an entire party. and we continue to have these stories on tv. >> democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut, thank you for everything you've done on this issue. thank you. >> and our children live in fear. >> yes, they do. >> senator, your children asked you, my children asked me yesterday, and as kamala harris said, this is a choice. this is a choice.

>> i don't see the argument. >> republicans are making. >> yeah, and this election, you know, those young people will have a chance to come out and say something about it. hopefully you will see parents and kids turning out in this election at high numbers to demand candidates running for president down to candidates running for state legislature choose to put in place, as you mentioned, interventions supported by 80% to 90% of americans that will make our kids' lives better. it is a choice we make every single day. it is a different choice we can make after this election. >> and in both parties. >> thank you, sir. >> in connecticut, it was republicans who stepped up and helped pass sensible gun safety laws after sandy hook. still ahead on "morning joe," as the u.s. works to combat disinformation online, our next guest is looking at how the flow of information has shaped our culture and our world, especially in the age of artificial intelligence. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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beautiful live picture of the white house, 7:31 in the morning on the east coast. google announced plans to extend the election-related restrictions to most of its artificial intelligence products. it says a.i. features will not show responses for a range of topics, including questions about candidates, voting processes, and election results. our next guest writes about the future of democracy in the age of artificial intelligence. "new york times" bestselling author joins us now with his new book titled "a brief history of information networks from the stone age to a.i." yuval, great to have you with us. we don't have timea.i., but you together. maybe we can get through it in two days. let's focus on a.i. and politics, which we're seeing already and have seen in the last couple election cycles. as you study it and look at it, what is the impact, the financial impact a.i. could have on the way the country votes this fall? >> what should be clear to

everybody is that we have the most sophisticated information technology in history, and people are losing the ability to talk with each other. something is obviously wrong. there are many explanations that are unique to the u.s. about american society, american politics, but you see exactly the same thing in my home country in israel. you see exactly the same thing in brazil, in france, in the philippines, all over the world. the democratic conversation is falling apart, and democracy is a conversation. and the fault is with technology. democracy is really built on talk, on information technology. for most of human history, large-scale democracy was impossible because large-scale, real-time conversation was impossible. the only examples we have of ancient democracies are smaller tribes or states.

you don't have any example of a large country, millions of people over thousands of kilometers, who function democratically before the rise of modern information technology. newspapers and radios and television. so information technology is not something you have on the side of democracy. it's the infrastructure, the basis. any major upheaval in information technology is bound to create a political earthquake, which is what we are experiencing. >> we have this sort of world, don't we, of choose your own adventure, which is if you can hear the story you want to hear based on your political ideology or your, you know, fealty to a certain political candidate, but how does a.i. play into that? we talk so much about our silos, the versions of truth and the facts that we present here on our show every day can be 180 degrees from some of the lies you might hear other places. how does a.i. factor into that?

>> it amplifies it because it can now start to create content by itself. previously, we saw algorithms battle for human attention by presenting us with certain content, but they couldn't create the content by themselves. all the content was created by human beings. now, a.i. is the first technology in history that can actually make decisions by itself and create new ideas by itself. it can create tech and images and videos and so forth. we are just seeing the beginning of this new wave. the other thing that a.i. is capable of doing, which no previous technology could, is create intimate relationships with mau human beings, hold conversations with them. democracy is a group of people talking with each other.

now, imagine these joining the conversation, speaking eloquently and emotionally, and you can't tell the difference. you don't know who in the circle is a human being and who is a robot. no when we are together in the flesh, around this table, we can still know it. but when you see something on the screen, you can no longer be sure whether this is the real human being or whether this is gene by a.i. of course, we are not helpless in the face of it. a.i. is not necessarilyng to destroy democracy. it can also strengthen democracy. it depends on the decisions we make. like, one obvious decision is to ban fake human. you know, previously, in history, we banned fake money because it was possible to counterfeit money. nobody ever bothered to ban fake people because there was not the technology to create fake

people. now, we have the technology to create fake people, so politicians should ban this. >> yuval, so a.i. poses a huge problem to the survival of democratic institutions. >> yeah. >> what, though, are the unintended consequences of this technology being unleashed within authoritarian states? >> oh, they're also afraid of it. you know, the most precarious thing for a dictator is a subordinate more powerful than you and you don't know how to control. this is a.i. if you think, for instance, about online censorship. so dictatorships work by terrorizing people. if you go on the russian internet and say something bad about putin, they will come after you. they will send you to the gulag. now, what do you do with a bot, with a dissenting a.i. that starts saying things against putin? you can't send this a.i. to a

gulag. you can't get its family. for a regime based on terror, it's very difficult when you suddenly have millions of new, independent agents that are impossible to terrorize and which are unpredictable. the other main problem of dictators is that they're always, you know, that they're the target for manipulation. in a democratic country, to take over the country is very difficult because they have to deal with so many conflicting organizations, institutions, whatever. a dictatorship is a centralized information system. you need to manipulate one person to control the country. it's been done many times in history with humans. for a.i. to manipulate a single dictator, it is much, much easier than to manipulate a democratic structure. you basically need to figure out this one extremely paranoid

individual, how to press their emotional button, and you have control of the country. >> you just said something a few minutes ago that, to my ear, makes a.i. sound more dangerous than dynamite. what you said was, you could ban humans, fake humans on a.i. we can't ban assault weapons in this country. how do we get to ban fake humans through a.i.? how does that happen? >> that's a political problem. i don't know. i'm not a politician. but there should be here, again, an ally. i don't see why republicans or democrats would like the idea of fake humans. they're not good for anybody. we have our differences, but when it comes to humans versus the robots, everybody should be on the same side. whether it's possible or not, i'm not sure. again, one of the things we know about history is we should never

underestimate human stupidity. it is one of the most powerful forces in history. the key question i start the book with is, if we are so smart, why are we so stupid? like, we are such a smart species. we can get to the moon. we can split atoms and whatever. yet, we are on the verge of destroying ourselves with a menu of self-destruction. previously, it was just nuclear war. now, we also have the rise of a.i. we know these things endanger us. we know we can't control them. yet, we produce them. it raises a big question mark about the human species, but i think the good news is, that the problem is not in our nature. the problem isn't human nature. the problem is our information. when you give good people -- and most people are good people, but

when you give good people bad information, they make bad decisions. >> we have just scratched the surface. that's why we'll have you back on tomorrow. the new book is titled if the nexus, a brief history of information network from the stone age to a.i." it goes on sale next tuesday, september 10th. "new york times" best selling author, noah harari, we'll see you tomorrow. >> thank you. israel and hamas trying to get a cease-fire deal in gaza. israeli prime minister netanyahu is not budging on one key demand. nbc's raf sanchez spoke with netanyahu and joins us live from tel-aviv with the latest. that's next on "morning joe."

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netanyahu says israel must keep open-ended control of gaza's border with egypt. he made the comments last night while speaking to foreign journalists at a news conference. the philadelphi corridor has become a key component of any potential cease-fire deal for israel, but hamas has said it won't agree to that. let'sring in nbc news international correspondent raf sanchez, who was in the room during that press conference yesterday. raf, what else did you learn? >> reporter: mika, this was an embattled but defiant prime minister benjamin netanyahu. he has faced five consecutive

days of large-scale positive protests on the streets of israel. they're demanding he agree to a cease-fire deal to bring the hostages home. the biden administration and u.s. officials are saying they're losing faith that netanyahu is serious about actually making a deal. so he called the world's media to jerusalem last night for this sort of unusual press conference. he clearly felt he needed to make his case to the world. he said he was committed to getting the hostages home, but he was also absolutely adamant he will not withdraw israeli troops from the egypt-gaza border, the area known as the philadelphi corridor. now, his refusal to do so has become a major stumbling block in these negotiations. and the families of some of those six hostages who were murdered by hamas last week say netanyahu's stubbornness on this issue may have cost their loved

ones their lives. i asked the prime minister about the words of those grieving families last night. take a listen. >> the mother of one of the murdered hostages, almog sarusi, said you sacrificed her son on the altar of the philadelphi corridor. if more hostages will be killed, is that a price you're willing to pay, and is that a price the people of israel are willing to accept? >> i can understand the internal, great torment that the mother of this murdered hostage feels. i'm committed to getting all of them out. i got more than half out. more than h of the hostages alive out because we employed the pressure points. we leave the pressure, we'll get no one out. >> reporter: now, netanyahu is

israel's longest serving prime minister, and one of his political superpowers, if you will, is his ability to withstand pressure, both from protesters on the streets and from american presidents. the prime minister giving absolutely no indication at this point that he is prepared to budge on this question of the philadelphi corridor. it is just not clear right now how a cease-fire deal moves ahead if nothing changes on that front. he says that the philadelphi corridor is critical to stop hamas from rearming and regrouping, but it is also contributing to what is now a badly, badly stalemated set of cease-fire talks. mika? >> nbc's raf sanchez reporting for us from tel-aviv, thank you very much. up next, we're going to speak with colorado governor jared polis on the heels of vice president kamala harris' new economic plan. and what it means for small businesses. "morning joe" will be right back.

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and he hits one to deep center field. to the warning track, and that's out of here. a grand slam for jesse winker, and the mets take a 4-0 lead in the fourth inning. >> jesse winker, with his fifth career grand slam. the mets needed only four more hits after that to beat boston, 8-3 complete a three-game sweep of the sox and a season-high seventh win in a row for the metropolitans. the mets have now won 14 of their last 19 to be within a half game of the braves for that last nl wild card spot. in toronto, kyle schwarber matched a major league record for his 13th home run of the season. amazing after hitting three home runs. he went deep for the fourth time in seven at-bats as the phillies beat the blue jays 4-2 for a

two-game series sweep, and on the north side of chicago, the cubs starter pitched seven hitless innings before they each followed with a perfect frame to complete a 12-0 win over the pittsburgh pirates last night, marking the cubs' first no-hitter at wrigley since 1972. a combined effort there. now to queens and a big upset at the u.s. open tennis tournament. sixth seeded american jessica pegula took down women's world number one, iga swiatek in straight sets last night. did it kind of easily. the winner of the first major quarterfinal match. she'll make her grand slam semifinal debut today against unseeded carolina mukova of the czech republic where pegula will be a favorite to get to the u.s. open final. her victory guarantees the u.s. open will feature multiple american men and women in the semifinal for the first time

since 2003. two on the women's side, two on the men's side. the men play tonight. and the wait is over for all you nfl fans. the regular season kicks off tonight with an afc championship game rematch in kansas city. the chiefs opening their super bowl title defense hosting the baltimore ravens. live coverage begins at 7:00 eastern with a special edition of "football night in america" on nbc and streaming on peacock tomorrow night. meanwhile, history as the green bay packers take on the philadelphia eagles in the league's first ever game in brazil. coverage for the contest begins at 7:00 eastern exclusively on peacock. mike, dealer's choice here. excited for the nfl season or do you want to talk about the red sox? and by the way, the yankees aren't playing very well either. let's put that out there. >> well, last night, the mets swept the red sox at citi field, which is a great ballpark by the way. >> it is. >> that's the official end of

the red sox season. >> it's over. >> yes, it is. they're not going to be a wild card team this year. from my point of view, it was a daily double of depression. you have had the red sox, they've lost 7 out of 11 games. the kansas city athletics, are losing seven straight. their principle opponent for the wild card, but they're out. it would be almost impossible for them to do it. at the same time, them losing, kyle schwarber, a guy that the red sox never should have let go, bet -- it's kyle schwarber. they could use him as a team leader. >> mookie betts too. add that to the list. >> i cannot talk about mookie. i can't talk about mookie. >> not to put salt in the wound. the nfl returns tonight. another high-profile republican is endorsing vice president kamala harris for president. we'll tell you who that is, and we'll go through new reporting on what some republican lawmakers are saying behind the

scenes about november's election and whether they actually want donald trump to win. we're back in two minutes.

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plus, get up to $800 off google pixel 9 phones. switch today! i don't believe that we have the luxury of writing in candidates' names, particularly in swing states, and as a conservative, as someone who believes in, and cares about the constitution, i have thought deeply about this, and because of the danger that donald trump poses not only am i not voting for donald trump, but i will be voting for kamala harris in this election. [ cheers and applause ] >> former congresswoman liz cheney becoming the latest high-profile republican to endorse vice president kamala harris for president. she made those comments yesterday during an appearance at duke university. the harris campaign welcomed

cheney's support calling her a, quote, patriot who loves this country and puts our democracy and our constitution first. >> you know, that's actually, willie, that's what's at issue here. we're not talking really about ideology of either of these candidates. in large part, because donald trump has no ideology, and they are both racing to the center. so the lines are getting blurred, but, you know, somebody in the republican party who may attack liz cheney might say, oh my gosh. oh, so you're going to abandon your pro-life position? like donald trump? are you talking about donald trump abandoning his right in front of our eyes? no, not really. she's just voting for democracy. she's voting that the constitutional republic endures with checks and balances.

well, what about the southern border? the southern border -- are you going to abandon that issue? like donald trump who killed the toughest bill ever? i mean, you know, the -- >> the list goes on. >> i thought you were a small government conservative. donald trump, the biggest deficit, biggest debt ever, biggest federal budget ever when he was in office. so again, it's not -- this is not about ideology because donald trump is not a conservative, something i have been saying here since 2015. he doesn't talk like a conservative. he's -- he's abandoned conservatives on the issue that is matter to them the most. so at this point, are you for a personality cult? do you want to be in a personality cult or do you want the republic to endure? that's what it comes down to as far as the republic as we have known it with madisonian democracy, and liz cheney chose democracy, and that shouldn't be a shock. >> that's the interesting thing.

it's not shocking she's come out and said this although she didn't have to make an affirmative for vote for kamala harris. she could have said, i'm not voting for donald trump, but she believes the race is too important to throw away a vote in her eyes. what is shocking, joe, though, is that yours and hers among actual conservatives is a minority position, which is to say most republicans, most people who call themselves conservatives now or were conservatives, but are really just trump supporters now, they are going along for the ride with all the things you just laid out, all the contradictions that donald trump presents to conservatives, all the flip-flopping on core issues like abortion, the debt, and the deficit, immigration, all of those things. what she's saying, is not only has donald trump flip-flopped on that, but he represents something so counter to not just conservativism, but to the american way of life, and democracy, that she's got to stand in the door, and i guess

the only surprise to me over these last whatever it's been since january 6th when she officially really took the lead on that investigation along with many democrats, is that more republicans haven't taken that door that was presented on january 6th and said, he has abandoned us. he has left us. he has led us down this disastrous path. we have no choice but to oppose him, but again, she and kinzinger and others are among the minority among the republicans. >> a lot of republicans seem to be afraid to open that door. you just alluded to what she said when she said, one of the reasons she's voting for kamala harris or will vote for kamala harris is the danger that donald trump represents, the danger that donald trump represents, and it's kind of shocking given his record, given his rhetoric, given everything he posts on his crazy social media channel, truth social or whatever it's called, it's so vulgar so, opposite to what this country stands for, so opposite to what

people look forward to in an election, elections about the future, and donald trump is about the past, but he represents a true danger to the fabric of this culture of ours, this society of ours, and to the institutions that represent our government. >> well, and, you know, he talks about -- we can talk about january 6th and the insurrection. we can talk about the fact that he said and his lawyers argued, right? because usually he says something outrageous like he's going to be a dictator from day one. oh, she's he's just joking and doubles down, and those people are left looking stupid as always. lawyers in court argued that he could assassinate political rivals. assassinate political rivals with s.e.a.l. team six and still -- still not have the law arrest him. that he's immune from that. he talks about being a dictator from day one, talks about terminating the constitution, lied about the election results,

tried to undermine american democracy for years and yesterday or the day before, he says, wait a second. maybe i just lost by a whisker. you know, on and on and on. you commit -- you look and again, this is a party divided against itself. when you have liz cheney who had a 95 acu live time rating, me -- i had a 95 acu lifetime rating. it's higher than most everybody else. you have adam kinzinger who served this country proudly, who's a conservative, david french. you have people who have been conservative their entire lives saying, we can't go there because this is not any other election. this is about the future of this country and how our government's run. >> well, and we need a strong conservative republican party, and that is not donald trump or the party that he is leading,

not even close, and a lot of people -- we've met some republicans who over the summer and spent time with them who voted for trump, and can't anymore. >> yeah. >> because their belief is a vote for kamala harris is a vote for potentially the republican party ultimately having a chance to rebuild itself, but it only can do that without donald trump. >> and that's what jonathan martin -- we're going to be talking about this later. jonathan martin reported on this in politico. republicans are secretly helping donald trump lose because they believe that's their best chance, and that's the best chance to reform the republican party. make no mistake. wherever we go, wherever our friends go, we hear people spouting talking points from other news networks, lies at the most ridiculous lies that are disconnected from reality that keeps them in this personality cult of donald trump's, and so

this is going to be a really close election. make no mistake. >> and nasty. yeah. speaking of lies, our top story, managing editor, sam stein, who did "way too early" for us -- >> speaking of lies. >> no. >> sam stein. >> the biden administration is accusing russia of attempting to interfere in the upcoming presidential election. the justice department has charged two employees of a russian-backed media network accusing them of illegally funneling millions of dollars to a tennessee-based company to publish propaganda videos online. the doj has also seized 32 internet domains it says the russian government and russian actors have used to influence the u.s. election. here's some of what attorney general merrick garland said yesterday about the actions the u.s. is taking. >> the american people are

entitled to know when a foreign power is attempting to exploit our country's free exchange of ideas in order to send around its own propaganda. the justice department's message is clear. we have no tolerance for attempts by authoritarian regimes to exploit our democratic system of government. we will be relentlessly aggressive in countering and disrupting attempts by russia and iran as well as china or any other foreign malign actor to interfere in our elections and undermine our democracy. >> yeah, you know, willie, the thing that is -- is so -- well, obvious about this, not surprising, is we've all seen it for several years. >> mm-hmm. >> there are people who are deliberately are knowingly or

unknowingly, promoting russian propaganda, propaganda that comes straight from the kremlin. people whose tv shows have been pushed by the kremlin to go on rt because they are spouting russian propaganda points. there have been people that we've seen on twitter for years, well known people with big followings, who are clearly, clearly pushing russian propaganda points. of course, one of the great ironies about this is -- not really an irony. it's just cynicism, and it's -- and it's just unfortunately un-american. these are the same people that get out -- a lot of them, that get out and talk about the russian hoax. oh, there's a russian -- -- come on. what are you talking about? there's no connection between, you know, this and russia, and russia's not trying to -- always apologizing for russia, always apologizing for putin, always claiming that vladimir putin is

not the bad guy that zelenskyy's actually the bad guy like the historian who said, oh, churchill's the bad guy in world war ii. >> yeah. >> not adolf hitler. like, this has been going on for years. the kids call it gaslighting, and now we found out at least a few of these who are just straight on working for the russian government. again, either knowingly or unknowingly. >> yeah. these are the people online like you say, joe, who have condemned what they call the russia hoax despite all the information we had in front of them from the mueller report, and now from this indictment, but also who are perceived as truth tellers outside the mainstream media. you're not getting the real story. you're not getting the true story. come to my youtube channel, and i'll tell you the truth. well, it turns out some of those prominent among them were complete dupes for the russian government. rt which is a state-run media in russia was directly feeding and spending a lot of money to

american influencers on the conservative side to feed this nonsense, these lies into our political bloodstream, and according to this indictment, one unnamed contributor with 1.4 million youtube followers on their own channel, received $400,000 a month plus a $100,000 signing bonus along with performance incentives just for making four videos a week for a tennessee-based company. another unnamed commentator was paid $100,000 per video. that's the propaganda, and they put it on their outlets for americans to consume. for more on this, let's bring in nbc news justice ken dilanian, and our chief international correspondent, keir simmons. good morning to you both. ken, i'll start with you. lay out if you can what doj says happened here, and how exactly it worked, how this information got from rt, a russian state media organization into the hands and onto the channels of these conservative influencers here in the u.s.

>> hey. good morning, willie. good morning, everyone. yeah, it's a remarkable scheme. $10 million is how much the justice department says was funneled into this one tennessee company that's been identified as tenant media. these guys were making a lot of money, and when i asked on a doj background call, what was the impact here? how many american this propaganda reach? they said, look. it's really hard to gauge, but this company in a short time amassed 16 million views for its videos on youtube. so it had an effect, and some experts are saying, they only need one or two videos to go viral to have a real impact on american politics. so what's very clear from the indictment despite as you said, people calling this part of a russia hoax, if you read the indictment, it's very clear there's a mountain of evidence that rt and these russian executives were funneling money secretly to these american conservatives who founded this organization in tennessee, and then they were then creating

videos and taking their cues from rt, particularly on things like the russian line on the ukraine war and pumping it out to the american public without mentioning that this was russian propaganda, and now the americans in the scheme are not charged. it's the two russians who are in russia, but the u.s. actually acted more broadly yesterday beyond just this indictment and they seized 32 internet domains that have been used by the russians for propaganda. they also sanctioned other people including the chief editor of rt who's a longtime putin crony. the good news here, the interesting thing about this is it shows how much has changed since 2016 when the u.s. government and the fbi essentially watched helplessly as the russians interfered in that election both by spouting false narratives on social media and by hacking and leaking and dumping material into the bloodstream. now they're much more proactive, like, this thing started only really less than a year ago. it really launched in november,

2023, and it looks like the fbi was onto them almost from the start and they carefully amassed evidence and now they're blowing the whistle on it. likewise, the iranian attempts to hack into the campaigns. we haven't seen any great impact from that, but it also shows how much more complicated the media ecosystem is than back in 2016. there are so many people now so prepared to believe what this russian propaganda is saying, and then when the government flags it, go online now. these same people are saying this is a lie. you can't believe this justice department indictment. this is all part of the russia hoax. so it's a tough problem, but the fbi and the justice department are trying to get out there in front of it. >> you know, ken, it's fascinating as you read through the indictment how the propaganda that the russian government, that rt was pushing into these conservative channels, echoes and went through to the leadership of the republican party to talking points we heard from members of congress, even from donald trump about what would happen if the united states continued to

support ukraine, that american soldiers were going to die. we heard that from members of congress talking about white people under attack in america, talking about transgender people. all these wedge issues, clearly to help donald trump and obviously attacks on vice president harris and president biden as well. >> yeah. it's remarkable, and this is the thorny issue, right? for the law enforcement community. the first amendment protects that speech, and it protects americans who want to lie or say whatever they want to say. the reason this became a crime is because this was a secret russian government effort and they violated the foreign agents registration act, this law that never used to be enforced, but the government is breathing new life into it because there are these secret efforts by our adversaries to co-op essentially a huge chunk of the american political stratosphere and sort of inject their narratives into the bloodstream, and, you know, it's really, really tough for

the government to get a handle on, but yesterday we saw what looks like their best efforts and look. this investigation is continuing. they're going to keep at this up and through the november election. >> so keir simmons, you cover russia closely. what is the reaction there? the justice department saying that vladimir putin and russia and this indictment favored donald trump winning this election. what have you heard from moscow? >> reporter: well, russia is promising retaliation. they've railed about the treatment of rt, this russian broadcast network for a long time. so we'll see what that retaliation is. joe talked at the top about gaslighting, about trolling, and we're seeing plenty of that. so rt issuing a statement that says ha ha ha ha ha. look. who ken was referring to, the editor in chief of rt, she's -- her connections to the russian

government, they have been hiding in plain sight. not even hiding. there was a report a few years ago that was clear about that. when two men were accused of the salisbury poisoning, alleged to be officers, they turned up those men on rt interviewed by that woman, and we know about her relationship, her connection to president putin. i don't think any of that is really a surprise. we have heard from president putin today. he was talking in russia. we haven't heard from him specifically about these allegations, but he was asked about the u.s. elections, and, you know, when you ask about what russia's view, and by that, we really mean president putin's view of the american elections are, and we think we have to go back to the trolling and the gaslighting that joe referred to at the beginning there. take a listen to what he had to say on this panel in russia's far east just today.

>> translator: it's been long since i've called any leaders of europe or the u.s. who were not against any type of contacts and we're not limiting them. yes, sometimes we exchange some kind of information using different channels. first of all, through the foreign ministry. it's not for us to determine these elections of the u.s. people. i said that if we can name a favorite candidate, it was -- it used to be joe biden, but now he's not participating in the election campaign and here a commander to all his allies to support ms. harris, so that is what we are going to do. >> so -- and there's laughter at the end of those comments and that's the thing about president

putin. you never know when he's trolling, gaslighting, when he's being serious and he revels in that, to say he supports kamala harris and then he goes on in those comments to talk about her laugh and refer to those maga talking points about kamala harris' laugh. so what does that tell you? i think one of the things it tells you is that actually putin's main objective is to try to sow chaos, that he wants to see america struggling. that really is -- no matter who is president, i think that is his guiding light if you like. the other aspect is it's really interesting, isn't it? he's paying very, very close attention. for him to talk about kamala harris' laugh in a public forum like that indicates that he's not just giving a cursory look to the u.s. elections. he is digging in, and reading and reading stuff online, and i think that tells you in reality how important the u.s. elections are to putin and to russia. coming up, the latest out of georgia following yesterday's

school shooting that left four people dead. what we are learning this morning about the victims and what authorities are saying about the gunman and previous contact with him. "morning joe" is back in a moment. im "morning joe" is back in a moment hi, my name is damian clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all these plans include a

healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. we're going to turn now to yesterday's deadly shooting at a high school in georgia. it happened in the morning at apalachee high school which is

about 45 miles away from atlanta. police say a 14-year-old student, 14, killed four people and injured at least nine others. it's believed he used what authorities say is a, quote, ar-platform-style weapon. students and teachers had to shelter in classrooms and were eventually evacuated to the football stadium. two students died in the gunfire. mason and christian, and two teachers were killed, richard and christina. all of those injured are expected to survive. police say two school resource officers found the suspect minutes after shots were fired. the suspect surrendered immediately and was taken into custody. he is now being charged as an adult with murder. joining us now from windor, georgia, is priya sridhar.

>> reporter: one of the most significant developments is the suspect was actually known to law enforcement previously. the fbi was aware of him since may of last year when he was a 13-year-old student here. they even conducted interviews with his father who said to them that he -- he did keep hunting rifles inside of their home, but that the suspect, now 14-year-old colt gray, didn't have unsupervised access to those weapons. here in georgia, there is no minimum age requirement as far as who can have access to rifles or shotguns, but of course, in this scenario, we know that authorities are telling us that the weapon that was used was actually an ar-style gun. the question is what his motive

could be. we did ask authorities if he knew the victims. the school here will be closed for the rest of the week conducting interviews with the suspect, his family. they have been speaking to colt through his family members, but they can't give us any further details or insight. there was a vigil held here last night. of course, the community is mourning. governor kemp also visited school last night. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> this is everybody's worst nightmare, and i just want to offer my sincere condolences and our thoughts and prayers to the families of -- that have lost loved ones. for those that are injured and continuing to fight, through just a tragic time for really this whole community that's been affected by this.

>> and of the remaining nine gunshot victims, we know one of them is a teacher and the other eight are students and they are all expected to make a full recovery. coming up, the georgia congressman who represents the district where yesterday's shooting took place. he's facing pushback on his gun-filled campaign ads. we'll talk about that next on "morning joe." we'll talk about that next on "morning joe."

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and we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country once and for all. you know, it doesn't have to be this way. it doesn't have to be this way. so we will continue, of course, to send our prayers and our thoughts to the families and all those who were affected. >> mike, we have seen too often in the trump republican party, we've seen this fake mamacho-is

that has been underlined and has used guns, mainly ar-15s as an -- and weapons that were designed for warfare, we have -- we've seen them used in political ads, and republican congressman mike collins who actually represents the district where the high school is located, took to social media to send his thoughts and prayers to families and victims, but if you're curious, if you are just curious what's out there on the internet for people in his district to see, here's a video we've posted online when he ran for congress in 2022 seen holding an ar-style weapon, an assault-style weapon before shooting the gun alongside the caption, send me to washington. i'll blow up the democrats'

coverup. >> georgians are sick and tired. we don't these spineless politicians who won't fight for trump, get to the bottom of 2020, and fix our elections. well, if they won't do it, mike collins will. send me to washington. i'll fix this election. i'll get to the bottom of 2020, and i will fight for trump's america first agenda. >> oh, god. >> so we've seen that far too often, people posing with military-style weapons. >> proudly. >> i said assault-style weapons. military-style weapons and weapons originally designed for war, mike, and they use them as props. we've seen other members of congress using ar-15s as props, using them, you know -- >> some as christmas cards. >> christmas cards, having their

kids holding ar-15s, having pins on their lapels, ar-15s and they wonder where this culture comes from, and you go down the list of school shootings over the past decade or so, and more often than not, there are ar-15s or military-style weapons, the ar-15 developed for warfare, developed as a more efficient killing machine in the jungles of vietnam than the weapons our soldiers and marines were carrying around there. >> you know, joe, it's exhausting listening to you talk about this and i'll tell you why. >> thank you. >> well, i'll tell you why. >> yeah. >> because we've talked about it many times before, and there aren't many guarantees in this life of ours, but we can guarantee everyone watching right now that we will be talking about another mass shooting within the next few weeks, months. it'll happen. it's designed to happen.

our politics designs it to happen, and elise, what joe is talking about, ar-15 or -- i don't know what all of those. it was an ar-15, but it was an ar-style weapon. i don't know how far this child -- and he is a child. he's 14 years of age, who was interrogated when he was 13 about his threats that he made, how did he get the weapon into school? did he walk to school? did he get a ride to school? an ar-style weapon is not something you put in your backpack with tootsie rolls and school books. the one question we can answer is the one that was just posed. when will the next massacre take place in a school? >> it's inevitable we are going to be at this place sooner rather than later, and mourning senseless deaths that didn't have to happen, and, you know, there's a difference between freedom and chaos. there can be gun rights advocates who are saying this is freedom, but this is just

descended into total chaos. the fact that in georgia, one of the most per missive states when it comes to guns, no background checks which the majority of americans want. there are no laws to secure your guns. there's open carry. so i just remember my late great father, kelly jordan, and his strong gun rights advocacy, and he would always say, more guns makes you safer, but this is an example. no it doesn't. no it doesn't, dad. you look at how the plenty -- there's so much, the multitude of guns, the access. it just -- this is chaos. this is not freedom when it comes to gun rights. >> and you know, guys, another element to this that always comes up in these stories, the tragic death of two 14-year-olds. those are kids. a 14-year-old who got the weapon somehow. we'll find out later. it's these two teachers who died and another one who was shot and as hard as it already is to be a teacher in the united states of america, we are now asking them

and have asked them for 25 years now as part of the job to get between a gunman and your students. that's part of the job. learn how to barricade the door, and if a gunman comes in, you put your body between the gunman and the students. two teachers did that. both math teachers, and joe, richard aspinwall is the kind of guy you and i grew up around. he was a math teacher and the defensive coordinator on the football team. i don't know what happened yesterday. we'll learn in the course of time, but my gut tells me that that guy and that other teacher did what they had to do to try to save the lives of those kids. >> and he should be alive today. he should be preparing his team for a, you know, their friday night football game, and be worrying about developing kids and their character over the

next year, and for years to come, and he's not going to be able to do that, and it's because of the madness, because of the chaos that continues, and, you know, elise talked about her father. i think mr. jordan probably like a lot of people i grew up with, who grew up as i've said a million times here, grew up nra members who started hunting with their fathers and grand fathers when they were young children who were taught gun safety, who understood the importance of gun safety, who told me in, you know, whether it's in first baptist church in pensacola or somewhere else, you know, at a diner, you know, we don't need ar-15s to shoot deer. we don't need ar-15s for what we do when we go out hunting. it's madness. i will say also, and this bears repeating, the majority of

americans -- the overwhelming majority of americans support gun safety laws, whether you're talking about universal background checks, whether you're talking about red flag laws, whether you're talking about keeping guns secure and safe, and by the way, you go through most homes in the south at least that i've went through. they have shotguns. they were locked up. their guns were secured. guns were secured, but that's not the culture now in this open carry and all of this -- again, it's just absolute madness and it's extremism that makes this country less safe. coming up, we'll talk about vice president kamala harris' new economic proposals with colorado governor and former small business owner, jared polis. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back. orng joe" is coming right back

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coming up, latinos have been the fastest growing segment of american evangelicals. we're taking a look at how this critical voting block could make a big impact in november. "morning joe" is back in a moment. in november "mning joe" is back in a moment hi, my name is damian clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible

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i was a single mom with a young child and a very demanding job. that meant i couldn't fly off with my friends at a moment's notice for the weekend. i learned that i should not envy their freedom. i had a darling little baby. i was simply at a different stage in my life. so i say in each stage of your life, own your choices and don't compare the drawbacks of your choices to the advantages of other people's choices.

but your choices are also not binary or linear. there are going to be zigs and zags along your life's course. >> that is great advice. that was valerie jarrett in her 2017 commencement speech to spellman college graduates talking about that long runway, and she would know. after a successful career in corporate law, a storied ten euroin the chicago mayor's office and being the ceo of a real estate company at the age of 52, valerie would step into the white house as an adviser to president barack obama, known as the other side of obama's brain. she went on to become the longest serving senior adviser to the president in u.s. history, and she recently was honored on the "forbes" and know your value 2024 50 over 50 u.s. list, once again, underscoring

that age is no barrier to excellence, and valerie joins us now because the runway, valerie, continues. she's now ceo of the chicago-based obama foundation and along with us is vice chair of "forbes" and know your value's 3050 summit, huma abedin, and maggie mcgrath. we are so happy to have you with us, valerie. congratulations on making this year's 50 over 50. >> thank you. >> -- impact list, and i love asking this question. so i want to begin by asking you my favorite question that i ask to all the honorees. when you were in your 20s and 30s, did you ever imagine and envision your career after the age of 50 and well beyond? >> not in my wildest dreams. good morning, everybody. i want to just thank you for this honor. i'm delighted to be in such extraordinary company, and look.

as you know me, i really didn't have a path in my early career. i was kind of doing what everyone else thought i should do, and i was not listening to the most important voice, and that's the quiet one within us, and it wasn't until i was both miserable and thought my daughter would never really be proud of me the way i am of my mom, but i took this leap of faith and joined local government. a path that where i found my vo my passion. >> valerie, speaking of your daughter, one of my favorite things about your inclusion in this year's list is that laura, who is a coanchor of the saturday today show was the one who nominated you to be on the 50 over 50. here's a little bit of what she had to say. >> okay, mom. did you really think you could get forbes 50 over 50 and i wouldn't have anything to say about it? you're obviously a no-brainer for it, and i know, because i nominated you. you show the art of the

possible. not only are you an amazing mother and hardworking and an amazing daughter and a good friend, but you love hard, you work hard, you play hard. i'm so, so proud of you, because i know you're just getting started. >> valerie, i want to know what does it mean to you to hear those words? >> you're trying to make me cry by playing that clip. the best thing i ever did, of course, was to raise laura. when i finished my book, laura went out with me on tour and a friend of ours, tina chen, asked laura, what did you learn about your mom that you didn't know? laura said, i had no idea how guilty she felt when she was a young working mother. i thought i was the only one who was having a difficult time. she said, you were great, mom. first of all, i wish she had

said that when i was much younger, not when she was 30, but i think so many people in their early careers in particular are so worried about doing everything, particularly women. we think we have to do it all ourselves. we have to recognize life is full of chapters. in one chapter you're struggling and trying to be a good mom and work in your career. what i think i now experienced being well over 50 is having a different chapter. and the question isn't can you have it all and particularly all at the same time, the question is do the chapters of your book add up to a whole. >> there you go. >> what you have done, mika, you were inspiring of this of course with know your value and, maggie and huma, your leadership allows

women of a certain age to put the spotlight on what we are continuing to do. >> we were at a very exciting chapter for our party at the democratic convention in chicago. we are just 60 days away from another historic election. you know exactly what it took to elect our first black male president. and you're also aware of the role that sexism and misogyny and racism has played in our political cycles. have we evolved to have women in leadership roles in this country? and if not, what do you think still needs to change? >> well, in short, huma, yes, i think we have. certainly no one knows better than you how hard everyone worked back in 2016.

we've learned a lot since then. i think what hillary clinton did is she shattered the glass ceiling, but it didn't quite break. what i expect vice president harris to do is break it into the zillions of pieces we have been waiting for. what she has said is, look, she's not running because she's a woman, she's not running because she's a person of color. she expects to win because she is actually the most qualified person running for office, and that's what's most important. the issues she cares about, working families, creating opportunities, she lived the american dream. she wants to make that dream available to every american. at a time right she helps bring us together. she puts joy and laughter and a sense of unify back into our country. that's why it has been so electric over the last six

weeks. we have to not take, as we all know, a single vote for granted and work hard through election day. i am confident she will win. >> i couldn't agree more. in just five days she will be debating for the first and maybe only time debating donald trump. what do you think the number one thing she needs to accomplish in that debate is? >> i think she will exude the reason why she deserves to be president of the united states, confidence on the issues, confidence in her demeanor, her temperament, her inclusion, her willingness to do the work, as you said. look, i have complete confidence when the country contrasts herring strengths and talents and experience, she will come out victorious. debates are an opportunity on a big stage to see how people handle that kind of stress, but i also think what we've seen in the last six weeks on the campaign trail and at the

democratic convention also peek to her qualifications. she's rolled up her sleeves, and she takes her case directly to the american people. she knows she has to earn every single vote, because she's the most qualified person for the job. >> valerie jarrett, thank you so much. so good to see you. >> thank you. >> for more information on the 50 over 50 list go to knowyourvalue.com. huma abedin and maggie mcgrath, thank you both as well. still ahead on "morning joe," speaking about that debate, we'll go through the rules for next week's presidential debate. chris matthews joins the discussion. keep it right here on "morning joe." discussion keep it right here on "morning joe.

we had a good debate, and it was a fair debate. and he was down like 18 or 19 points after the debate. i hate mosquitos. i'm surprised. i didn't think we had -- we don't like those mosquitos

running around. we want nothing to do with them. and we want nothing to do with bad politicians that hate our country too. >> okay. a little bit of the weave there was happening. yeah. did he ever get back to the point, the question is, the man who said he should be able to interfere in u.s. elections, donald trump getting distracted by his nemesis mosquitos. if you have a lot of makeup on and it's really hot, the last thing you want is skeeters. >> if you go back through time, abraham lincoln, of course, his nemesis was people trying to divide this country. his nemesis was slavery. fdr, of course, it was the

nazis. martin luther king, of course, racism in america, segregation, trying to bring this -- donald trump, it is mosquitos. he does not like mosquitos. he does not like sharks or electric boats or the quandary that would put one in if, you know -- he does like hannibal lecter. he says all-time great guy. but mosquitos, yes, a recurring -- a recurring nuisance to donald trump. >> you know, joe, this gets back to the conversation we were having yesterday about the false equivalency in the coverage of donald trump versus other people in politics, namely, joseph r. biden, who would walk on stage and happen to maybe almost trip and fall over or whatever or utter someone's name or mispronounce someone's name, that would be on the front page of the "new york times" and other papers.

and yet donald trump, we just saw him rambling on, the weave, bringing back the weave, incomprehensible, illogical. it's an old man struggling for a thought, and he can't find the thought. yet it's rarely mentioned in news media. >> there actually was, mike, during the biden campaign, the times had a syntax block. they would actually go through -- thank god nobody's ever done this with me or tie straightening with me, but they had a syntax blog. and they would -- they would put his words down there. it was absolutely -- and again, you have donald trump, where just -- because i've had a lot of people tell me you have to do two things. you have to watch an entire donald trump speech. >> oh god. >> and these aren't people that are like democrats or whatever. these are people saying, if you

want to know how off the rail things have gotten, even compared to '16 and '20, you need to watch his space. then they say, if you get a chance, try to get a transcript to his speech because, yeah, there's a lot of bobbing and weaving going on there and incoherence. and yet again, you know, it's so funny, we still have newspapers talking about kamala harris, how has she moved on issue one or issue two, how incredible that she's moved on this or that. donald trump goes from bragging about terminating roe v. wade, a 50-year right on one day, to saying he's going to be a champion of women's reproductive health the next day, to saying, no, he's changing his mind the next day, to saying he's going to vote against ron desantis' six-week abortion ban the next

day, to saying he's going to vote for ron desantis' six-week abortion ban in florida the next day. and you'll have the times and the "washington post" bringing their hands, going, oh my god, what -- kamala harris, like, her tax plan, how is this different, how is she flip-flopping? when there's no moral equivalence. that is, again, mike -- we keep talking about what mika is going to be talking about on this week's "morning mika" the flattening out of the radical differences and these two candidates' vision for the future of american democracy, of our constitutional republic, on whether, whether the guardrails of madisonian democracy are kept in place or destroyed. but there's a flattening and a moral equivalency for people who

are desperate to make this dole versus clinton. it is not. >> yeah. i just can't get past your mentioning a transcript, trying to read a transcript of one of donald trump's speeches. i could not do it. i'm against capital punishment. >> there you go. >> yeah. well, there's that. by the way, in that sound bite we opened this hour with, the fourth hour of "morning joe," he was lying. so there you go. add to the list of things you said, he lies incessantly. joining us now, we have a member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay, president of the national action network, host of "politics nation" reverend al sharpton and contributor to "washington monthly" chris matthews is with us. great to have you all. >> this is exciting. chris matthews, of course, i've explained this to people before. >> yeah. >> your days, your nights

centered around being in front of the television at 7:00 p.m. >> absolutely, to see what the opening line of "hardball was." i always tried to predict what it would be. >> what was your favorite one? >> oh gosh, what was my favorite one? there were so many. i'm going to come up with a few, but they're fantastic. >> chris, i'm going to get to you in a second. mara, i'm not asking you to defend your paper, but of course we do always hear about the wall that is sacrosanct between the editorial page and -- >> let's practice the wall. >> so we can practice the wall, and i don't ask you -- because i always hate when people come on a podcast and go, will you do this or will you do that? then people say, boy, you must hate so-and-so at msnbc. >> it's like the dunk tank, you know? >> but i'm not going to do that. i'm not asking you to talk about the "new york times." >> it's an overall problem.

>> it's an overall problem with whether it's tv news, whether it's the newspaper, but a flattening, a moral equivalency between the insanity of donald trump's speeches and basically the calling for the end of, of, you know, checks and balances in american democracy, versus kamala harris. >> yeah, and her laugh. >> and her laugh. >> whatever. >> or if you talk about the difference -- like, how does anybody talk about flip-flopping on issues without leading with donald trump on abortion, on immigration, on the federal debt. >> interfering in elections. >> you name it, he does it. >> no. i mean, first of all, we have to state the obvious, which is you're absolutely right. in this election, the choice is obvious. we have said that, actually, at the editorial board over and

over. and you have democracy on the one hand and somebody who is committed to a policy that's going to move america forward. and then you have donald trump, who can't get through a coherent speech. so that's obvious. the challenge not just for journalists, but really for the country is that not only is donald trump a threat, but, you know, it lowers the bar. so i don't think it's unacceptable. i think it's important as our role -- for our role as journalists to really push every candidate for office. and there are plenty of things we could hear from the vice president that we'd love to hear more about, policy speeches. it would be great to see her take more questions from the press. those things are important. it's just the context is difficult because, because of the extremism of the republican party, because of how extreme donald trump is, it's hard to hold both candidates accountable equally, because one is

functioning as a normal candidate from a normal american party and the other is not. so this is really about the extremism of the republican ticket, and it's important to hold all candidates accountable. it's just that when you do that, it does sometimes sound a little silly, because given the breadth of what the vice president is offering the american people, there is no comparison with donald trump. >> right. >> so there's no question about that, but that doesn't mean that, you know, the vice president -- in a normal election, by the way, we would see real competition. and competition is always good for american democracy. the problem is republicans aren't providing democratic competition. >> yeah. >> so, you know, it definitely puts the press in an awkward position, no question. >> it is a very awkward and difficult challenge for the press. and by the way, a strong democracy, this country to be strong would have a strong

conservative republican party. it's not what they have right now. it's not a normal race. >> our conservative party, we have a $35 trillion debt that donald trump did more than any other president to add to. yeah. a strong conservative party, that would be a good thing. >> that's why top republicans are secretly hoping that donald trump loses november's presidential election. this is according to politico playbook, which reports that some of the gop's elected lawmakers and commentators don't want a second trump term. and it's not just the never trump crowd. these individuals who refuse to admit their concerns publicly, fear four more years of trump could take the party in the wrong direction. they include free marketers who are worried about trump's tariff idea, pro-life lawmakers concerned about his verbal flip-flops on abortion, and defense hawks worried about

trump abandoning u.s. allies. meanwhile, jonathan martin's latest column for politico magazine is entitled, "if republicans want to win, they need trump to lose big." he writes in part, the best possible outcome in november for the future of the republican party is for former president donald trump to lose and lose sound lid. gop leaders won't tell you that on the record. i just did. more importantly, vice president kamala harris wins the popular vote and the electoral college, the less political action he'll have to reprise his 2020 antics and, more importantly, the faster republicans can begin to rebuild a post-trump party. >> chris matthews, what's so fascinating is when jonathan martin began to write this column -- and i'm sure this happened to you when you wrote columns -- you said to yourself, i'm going to write this really

controversial problem. jonathan writes in this piece that that's exactly what he thought he was doing here, and then he started calling around to republicans in washington. off the record, they were like, yeah, yeah that's what we want to happen. he said there was no controversy. they agree that the guy who cost them elections in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023 needs to lose in 2024 if the party is to be rebuilt. >> it's a nice column, but the fact is republicans are republicans and they're going to vote that way. all the moderate republicans out there are going to vote republican this time. that means voting for trump. look at the numbers in pennsylvania. they're running even. bobby casey is running even with mccormick. it's dead even. the only thing that can stop

that is republican women are going to look at trump's record and look at where he said there needs to be some sort of punishment, which i wrote about in the "philadelphia inquirer" this morning. he said i want to get rid of roe v. wade because i want to punish women. that's why i put the three judges on the supreme court, to punish women. they start to take a real look at this and think about who this guy is and where he came from, they're going to think about republican, voting republican again. it's a close election in pennsylvania. it's really close. in rural areas, he got 68% in '16, 70 important in '20. he's growing in the rural parts of the state, the alabama part as james carville calls it between philadelphia and pittsburgh. the philadelphia people have to pull a lot more minority votes, younger voters. it's going to be a tough haul election night. we're going to be sitting here at 9:30 or 10:00 at night wondering how pennsylvania is going to go. i have no idea how it's going to go right now.

it's tough. i'm telling you, the gun issue is tricky in pennsylvania. you've got to be very care full. you've got to talk about access, talk about background checks, all that. that's good. talk about controlling, buying and owning a weapon. you're getting in trouble there. it's just a fact. >> i mean, background checks, universal background checks, 90% of americans support, overwhelming majority of americans support, red flag laws. there's no doubt kamala harris has the wind at her back. there is no doubt she's put the southern states back in play, north carolina, georgia, arizona, nevada. she's doing far better in those states than anybody expected. but pennsylvania is tight. >> yeah. >> michigan is tight. wisconsin will be tight. one thing people need to remember, these democrats, if any democrat is getting confident, they need to remember that in those upper midwest

states donald trump's support was understated in polls dramatically in 2016 and especially in 2020. we saw in wisconsin -- let's keep those numbers up. or take them down, tj, either way. can we have an a.i. director? can we get an a.i. tj? >> mm-hm. >> i think google can do that. >> yeah. >> but anyway, if you look at wisconsin, there's a state right now kamala harris, if you believe these polls, is up six points in wisconsin. there were polls that showed joe biden up by 12, 13, 14. i think an abc poll a week before the election in wisconsin ended up being less than a percentage point, michigan the same. the real clear politics average on election day was about 9% in joe biden's favor. it ended up being basically a tie. same thing with pennsylvania.

so those upper midwest states, again, the polls understate donald trump's support. so any democrat that thinks, oh, kamala harris has got that, needs to listen to chris, needs to look at history. this is a close battle. >> i want to narrow in on pennsylvania again, on trump country, pennsylvania, and ask you, are voters there getting the truth about donald trump? do they know he is behind the overturning of roe and that he bragged about it? do they know he thinks it's okay to interfere with elections? do they know about the hush money trial and what he is convicted of doing? and do they like that about him? and i know kamala harris' campaign is doing a reproductive tour across the country, 50 cities. could that help get the truth to the people? or are they satisfied with donald trump, the truth about him? >> this is the challenge -- >> basically, chris, mika's basically asking -- i know, but i'll just say it. are they being programmed by

certain cable news networks that twist the truth or by certain websites that twist the truth? >> do they like the truth? >> is that their reality? >> in the rural areas, fulton county, gettysburg, you're going to see a total blanketing of trump, the signs everywhere. there's no local newspaper. there's no corner anymore. there's no gift shops or barbershops. it's all the big companies running all that retail. they don't have a downtown area to walk around and say hello to everybody. it's not like that. you get in bucks county, you get around the edge of philadelphia, around summerton, that's trump country too. that's -- my ward went for trump, the 67th ward, which is cops and firemen. it's trump. south philly is just like new york where you have the neighborhoods that are very conservative, the irish italian

neighborhoods like queens or brooklyn, they're there. it breaks out in terms of ethnic groups. that's really a good factor there, the ethnic groups. so you see the people are very conservative, they just are. because they're conservative, they're voting for trump. that's the irony. people like you who grew up conservative are also voting for trump because they're voting the party line. they're voting the party line. that's just -- and i think the only thing that's going to shake this is abortion rights. most people are for abortion rights. they may not be for abortion, they're for abortion rights. when the president comes out and says, i want women to be punishes for having an abortion, he said so when he went and said and hired those three new judges for the supreme court. he knew what he was doing. he wanted to punish women. he's clearly the bad guy here. i just don't think the democrats are pushing that issue hard

enough. they got to hit it really hard. because when you go into the voting booth, maybe the husband and wife may not talk about how they're going to vote, but i think women especially are going to say, wait a minute, this is deprivation of my rights. the rights i grew up with being taken away in pennsylvania and we've got to do something about it. >> reverend sharpton, i can hear your mind spinning over there as we listen to the next several. minutes. next week there's going to be a debate between the former president mr. trump and the existing vice president kamala harris, and it's going to be a huge event. the microphones are going to be shut off when one person is speaking as opposed to the other. i don't know whether that helps or hurts the vice president. i don't know if it helps or hurts the president -- the former president. but my question to you is, what element do you think will play in this debate that would be critical? is it the microphones being shut

off or the fact that donald trump will be facing a black woman? >> well, i think the element of donald trump facing a black woman is going to be key here, because donald trump has in his mind climbed up to where he gets respect from the people that he felt looked down on his father and him, the park avenue crowd, we would say in new york, the elite. he always felt they looked down on him. he has said that to me over and over again. now he's up there, he won for president, he's coming back to reclaim it. and the black woman that he wouldn't rent an apartment to in his youth and was charged with that by the justice department, the black woman who is the mother of the central park five that she said should go to jail for a crime they didn't commit that wasn't even a death penalty crime in a state there was no death penalty, i've got to face her? she's equal to me?

the insult to him of having to face what he always felt is going to be in his mind. the fact that he has lost it, because donald trump it shall -- i'm listening to the panel talking about how he's no longer as lucid as he was. he was never that smart. he was slick. there's a difference between being smart and slick. he's not even slick anymore. he doesn't know what to say at what audience. for him to come there being diminished that much, seeing something that he felt he was always better than as he was trying to reach the elite, he'll be off his game. what kamala harris must do is come with her content so she can show she's serious, but at the same time know how you deal with an entertainer, because that's what he is, because she can't let his entertainment side make it look like she couldn't handle him. so she's got to be someone who uses both i can deal with your

one-liners, but at the same time i've got something real to say. >> i think that's exactly right. of course, you have -- we don't want to underestimate donald trump. he's a consummate performer. of course, there's not going to be an audience. i do believe that will play a factor probably in kamala harris' favor. but, you know, she's a prosecutor. we're talking about somebody who also knows how to put on a performance in a really important way. and i think what we saw from donald trump at the national association of black journalists convention this summer, let's not forget when he was on the stage with three black women, he really couldn't help himself but degrade them. >> that's right. >> and show his true colors. >> so i think we're about to see a true test of donald trump's ability to control himself. we're going to find out just what kind of faculties he has. i do believe that the true face of this president or former

president, excuse me, is one who deeply hates black people and women. and i think if america sees that, it's going to be very bad for donald trump. >> i don't even think it's just hate. i think he really believes they're inferior. >> absolutely. >> and that they should not even be at equal level. he talks down to us. now you're telling me i have to go up against you to go back to my white house where i ought to be there? i mean, that is the attitude he's going to come in with. >> that's right. other news now. attorney general merrick garland has unsealed indictments charging two employees of the russian-backed media network rt in connection to what the biden administration says are russian state-backed efforts to

manipulate u.s. public opinion ahead of this fall's election. the two are charged, are accused of implementing a multimillion dollar scheme to hire a tennessee-based company to publish and disseminate pro-russian content. that company then contracted u.s.-based social media influencers to share content on their platforms. let's bring in former director of the cyber security agency chris krebs. he's the chief intelligence and public policy officer at the cyber security company sentinel one. it's good to have you on the show. >> chris, thanks so much for being with us. you know, i want to circle back to the last, last segment where we were talking about republicans that were concerned about donald trump winning. part of that jonathan martin story talked about republicans who are traditional foreign policy, pro-nato, pro-ukraine

republicans who believe you should push back against autocrats, you should push back against communists, all the things that we republicans used to believe. it, it never really made sense to me when you started having these republicans coming out and literally lifting pro-putin propaganda and putting it on their websites or putting it on cable news. so i guess i, i, i shouldn't be surprised, but it is still jarring to see these headlines when we knew something was going on. i'm curious your thoughts. >> right. yeah. look, the indictment from yesterday, the charging document itself is a fascinating read. i mean, it is this almost lud lum like tom clancy like story of foreign security services and foreign interests manipulating the u.s. political discourse. but it really all boils down to,

as i see it, something i've been talking about for years. it's disinformation, it's propaganda. it's all about power, influence and money. take your pick of those three. something's in play here. if the russians are going to drop 10 million into a single outlet for a few million views, i've got to expect they've got 100 million-plus more that is distributed somewhere else. >> right. this is the first shoe to drop, i think. >> so that's -- yeah, that's my next question, how much more is out there, but also how far did this disinformation go? who did it get to? who was able to see it? do we know that? >> how does it impact the overall information sort of environment out there? >> yeah. >> so this is what is so fascinating. if you go back to 2016, the majority of the russian disinformation efforts were launched by prigozhin's internet research agency really focuses on online social media

platforms, twitter, facebook and others. now they're using podcasters, they're using youtube, they're using fake news sites. there's a second part of this that talks about doppelganger. it has fake websites that look a lot like russian posts, cnn and others, and they boost fake news, a.i.-generated content, videos, images. it's a very, very complex scheme that doj, the intelligence community are working hard to unravel, and it's not just them. it's security companies that have been tracking these guys. i've been tracking these doppelganger guys for more than a year. so i was over the moon with these documents yesterday that we can expose them and start tearing down this infrastructure. >> right. is it not just russia? what about iran's disinformation? how concerned are you about this? >> well, hey, look, the last couple weeks it's been all

comers. we have the iranians that have been doing the hack and leak campaign with the second or maybe even third outreach to journalists over the last several days. then you've got china and the news coming out of albany, new york, the other day with the deputy chief of staff. we know they are fully engaged in attempting to manipulate u.s. political discourse. they're going after influential members of the elite. look, whether you want to call the podcasters or youtubers the elite, it doesn't matter. they have reach. they have the ability to reach out and touch minds. the last thing i'll note here is these are not ad hoc. these are not one-offs. there are very complex strategies behind the scenes. we're seeing the tip of the iceberg and there will be more. at the same time, we can't overplay the impact. there very likely is no tactical impact, any single voter's

decisions are changing. it's, to your point, mika, how is the overarching information environment corrupting, eroding. we're losing confidence. that's what we have to understand and get back to, you know, generaleracy and talking truth to power. >> all right. former director of the cyber security agency chris krebs. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> mika brings up a great point about iran disinformation, about china, what china's not only doing in america but all other, chris matthews. russia is a particularly interesting case. as a lifelong democrat and me as a lifelong republican until donald trump became president, it was always the republicans that accuse the democrats of being too close to the russian commies. and here you have an entire segment of republicans who have become pro-russian, pro-putin,

pro-orban, who is vladimir putin's only real ally in the e.u. >> you know, i went into the peace corps in africa for a couple years. one thing i looked forward to at night, because i was all alone out there was to be the voice of america and the bbc. you would hear them talk about civil rights fights back at home. they would tell the honest story of what was going on in america to the world, to the world, to the third world as we said in those days. so these countries in africa were hearing us tell the truth about our problems and race, and it was real. and it was great, because you could count on the bbc and count on us to be telling the truth. the russians -- i just imagine what it's like with putin going, how are we doing can broadcasting right now, how are we doing with our message? get the message out, get the propaganda doing. that's what they're doing. they're trying to catch up with

us. they can't beat us in the economy or technology, but they can beat us in bs. that's what they're out there doing. i can imagine the pressure on these people not to tell the truth. i'm so impressed by the democratic candidate for president, harris, because the way she's handled the race issue, the woman of color issue, she said when trump went after her trying to bring up the whole willie brown thing and all that nonsense, i know what he's up to, she said, you know, this is the same old tired playbook. reagan said, there they go again, but he really was trying to screw up medicare. when they say there they go again -- you know, jd vance has back a catholic, joe biden has become a catholic. it's not an issue. kennedy said in '60 to address the houston ministers, he said i'm not the catholic candidate for president, i'm not the

catholic candidate for president. i'm the democratic candidate for president who happens to be catholic. it is so smart for her to say you talk about this stuff, this old stuff, you keep bringing it up, that's your problem, that's your problem. the american people are deciding on the facts here and the issues and they're looking at me pretty seriously, because i'm the only alternative to you. that's what's going on. i'm the only choice they got besides you. >> right. >> and that's the best argument they've got, the democrats. >> chris, i, i -- when i was a college student back in 2008, i listened to you talking about barack obama and the way he dealt with the race issue. >> yeah. >> as we pedantically call it ourselves often. i'm wondering if you see vice president harris' handling of this issue as even more dismissive in some ways, just saying we're beyond this. obama had a little bit of a different message. i'm wondering, do you think for all the horrors of trumpism and all the hate that we've seen

over the past decade, that we're been grappling with as a country, do you think that harris' ability to kind of brush that aside suggests that maybe the country is in a pretty good place in some ways on race? >> tricky for a person like me to talk about it, but i do think when you think about the personality of the person, you can say, i care about people, not types. that's what i think about. i think about people. i'm going to judge her on her and judge him on him. that's how i'm going to do it. people who don't want that choice are the bad guys. they want the old choice. and i think for her to dismiss it by the same -- i love the language -- the same old, tired playbook. in other words, this is your game, this is what you play, and i'm not going to play it, because talking about we have always made these historic decisions after the fact. we say, well, we like the president because we like kennedy more than nixon. he's more likable. he's a better candidate, better

foreign policy. we're going to go with him. and we had a catholic president. but it's irrelevant later, irrelevant with jd vance and joe biden. we want it to be forgotten, i think. >> that's what happened with jfk, people like my southern baptist mom in 1960. she told my dad she was voting for nixon. she voted for jfk, the catholic. by the way, 1960, there was a difference baptists thought, between baptists and catholics. as i've always said about margaret thatcher, when margaret thatcher was running and became prime minister, when margaret thatcher was running rough shod over her own cabinet, nobody said she's a woman prime minister. they were like, that's a prime minister. >> she just ran over me. >> who happens to be a woman. and it is incredible, i think, thus far that is where we are with kamala harris, and that is

what people like donald trump hate. >> chris matthews, mara gay, thank you both. what a great conversation this hour with reverend al and mike. thank you. kamala harris sent a message to the business community yesterday by putting distance between herself and president biden. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us next to explain. ♪♪

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switch today! i just want to press the point, when a political candidate comes up with what i think is a good idea, i have to call it a good idea. a $50,000 tax cut, not tax cut but a tax credit for startups of small businesses coupled with less red tape, i got to say that is a good idea regardless of her other tax ideas. >> all right.

fox business host stuart barney with that praise yesterday for kamala harris' small business tax credit plan. under that, under her proposal tax deductions would dramatically increase from $5,000 to $50,000 for small business startup expenses. joining us now, we have colorado's democratic governor jared polis. for the purposes of this conversation, you yourself started up some businesses that started as small businesses. what do you think of the harris plan? >> well, i think it's really exciting. as a former entrepreneur myself and before i got into public service i started several companies, it's really a big deal to see a potential president talk about entrepreneurship and risk taking in a positive way and not just aspirationally new businesses, what an exciting goal for our country.

but to say very tangibly, a $5,000 startup deduction, which who can start a business for $5,000 anymore, $50,000 deduction making it easier to start a business, this is a real exciting agenda i think entrepreneurs, risk takers and dreamers of america can really get behind. >> governor, in terms of growing businesses or starting new businesses, you have two programs that were mentioned here in the notes we have, patriot boot camp and tech stars. tell us about that and the impact it can have on not just specifically veterans, the impact it can have on people starting up new businesses. >> yeah, it's a big deal. patriot boot camp, a nonprofit working with veterans to help give them the skills they need to be entrepreneurs, tech stars, which i cofounded and spread across a number of cities more than a decade ago, also a hands-on academy, if you will, three months on site to develop

skills to raise the capital to grow your company. you know, today's small garage startup can be tomorrow's thousand-person company. that's what kamala harris gets. and making it easier to take risks to start companies, making housing more affordable, reducing cost to start a new business, enlarging the tax deduction for startups, these are all the types of things that can help new businesses get off the ground. especially first-generation entrepreneurs are getting the skills they need to raise capital and grow their companies. >> governor, isn't this also a real sense of really giving us clarity on the concerns of both candidates with vice president harris and donald trump, donald trump who gave a tax break to billionaires and trillionaires,

and she's coming in with her proposal to gave $50,000 tax credit to get started, isn't it shows the contrast of which side of the american public and those that want to engage in business, that you're going to give priority to? >> look, you look at some of the big multinational corporations. some of them are effectively paying close to zero percent tax so their clever overseas structures. we need to crack down on those loopholes and stop putting the small business first and entrepreneur at a disadvantage. make sure anybody with a great idea in our country has less barriers to start and grow their own company. if you play by the rules and work hard, you can get ahead in the united states. >> democratic governor jared polis of colorado, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it.

vice president harris also unveiled a plan yesterday to lower capital gain rates more than what the biden administration has proposed. let's bring in the coanchor of cnbc's "squawk box" and "new york times" columnist andrew ross sorkin. >> we played a couple times stuart barney's clip saying, you know what, give credit where credit is due, this is good. most capitalists, small business owners would believe it, would think the same thing. also, of course, biden was going to tax capital gains. the president was going to move it up to 39.6. she's going to raise it to 28 million from making -- i mean 28% for people making more than $1 million. i want to quote mark cuban here. kamala harris is listening to business people and getting their feedback on what's fair and what will lead to more investment in business. talk about that. >> i think actually mark cuban's

comment -- and we spoke to him this morning as well -- really gets at the whole issue, which is that for a very long time the critique of the biden administration was that they were not listening to the business community, that they weren't even having conversations. i think what's clear here and i think we've been waiting to try to understand exactly what the relationship would be between vice president harris' campaign and potential administration and the business community, which is how much interaction there would be, and clearly there is a lot. this is sort of a one-two punch yesterday between both coming out with this small business program and then the, the, the, the tax issue on capital gains. it is 28%. depending on how you do the math, it could get up to 33%. that's more than 10%, it's about 11% less than where biden would have been. biden would have been closer to 44%. i think to those who are saying, you know, how far left or center she is, and she's going to get some critique, by the way, on

the left as well as a function of this, but i think there is a view in the business community that maybe she's listening a little bit and she's going to be a little bit more centered perhaps than where biden would be. i think that, for some people in the business world, as i said, is going to be a relief. i'm sure for others it may not be a relief at all. >> yeah. well, you know, andrew, i know you've heard this and i heard it, heard it eight years during the obama administration and the joe biden administration, you heard the complaint over and over again from the business community they don't listen to us, they don't listen to us. there is no doubt that kamala harris, who, of course, represented silicon valley, is listening to business owners. >> i think that is the lesson of this. there's a lot more details we're going to have to learn. we've obviously discussed before this idea of taxing unrealized gains for folks at the very, very highest end. i don't think we have details on

that and we really don't have all the details on this particular tax policy. but i do think you're starting to see a policy emerge at least in the way that people approach it and think about it. you know, some of the criticism is that we want more details, more details, more details. but the truth is you may not get -- we may not get all those details even before the actual election itself. but i think it's the mindset and how you think she's going to be thinking about these details as law gets put into practice. and i think that's -- that's the bigger issue here. clearly it's also how she's talking about it. when she said she wants to, by the way, raise capital gains, it's lower than where biden would have been, but she's still raising to from where trump would be and where it is today. the language is look, we want to do this, we want to raise capital gains, but we also want to do that so we can incentivize folks on the other side who are

raising small businesses and who can afford to give them the deduction of $50,000. a little bit of it is just sort of how it's being posited and framed that's making folks in the business world and maybe more broadly than that say, you know what, she's for economic growth. >> there are so many political promises that go over the heads of so many people. i know firsthand, i ran for congress four times. i will tell you when you start talking about a $50,000 business credit, tax credit for small business owners, family restaurants, family hardware stores, entrepreneurs starting up maybe in their parents' garage or starting up somewhere else, that really lands. let's talk really quickly before we go. tonight the nfl kicks off, the opening game of the nfl. you and i talk about the financial impact all the time. >> yeah. >> i talk about the greatness of

america, the economic greatness, the military greatness and the cultural greatness. i talk about taylor swift a lot, what she has. the nfl, though, in brazil tomorrow night, they're in europe all the time, going to germany a good bit. the cultural impact across the globe is great. also, though, just pure money. over $20 billion earned by the nfl last the nfl last year. how big of an economic driver is it? >> the nfl is the biggest economic driver in so many cities. it's one of the biggest economic drivers in the media. we talk about tv ratings. this game going to be on nbc and peacock. tomorrow night it's on peacock. it's changing the economics of streaming. it is such a juggernaut in terms of the economy here in the u.s. and, as you said, as they build out more of these games and have them internationally, it's changing that dynamic. the evaluations of the sports

teams has gone up dramatically. cnbc sport came out with an evaluation analysis. the cowboys are worth $11 billion. just think about that. it's just a remarkable thing that we have teams that are worth $11 billion. the next one on the list was worth $8 billion. and it just keeps going on and on and on. >> thank you very much as always. coming up, latino evangelicals are emerging as a crucial voting bloc, which is attracting attention from both political parties and conservative media outlets. our next guest will break down why this matters more than ever. we're back in two minutes. why this matters more than ever. we're back in two minutes.

a lot of people ask us. how do you go out and change the minds of the evangelicals? the truth of it is we don't feel like we have to change their minds. their minds have already started changing.

donald trump is like a self-cleaning oven who does all the work for you. for a lot of these voters, they are not comfortable supporting him any longer. we know that donald trump may still receive 70% or 72% of evangelical support, which seems entirely too high, but he can't win the swing states of wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, georgia. even arizona if he doesn't receive near 80% of jell the call support. >> that was pastor doug yesterday on "morning joe" talking about the waning, but still substantial, support for donald trump among white evangelical voters. that group broke heavily for trump in 2016 and again in 2020. but with latinos now firmly established as the fastest growing segment of america, how will this critical bloc vote in november?

msnbc contributor paula ramos takes a deep dive into the latino evangelical movement. >> my mouth is filled with your praise. >> this is pastor rodriguez, he now serves as president of the national hispanic christian leadership conference. his reach, tends beyond these rooms. he has advised president bush, obama and trump. he's seen firsthand the political levers latinos exert. >> beyond his mega church, pastor rodriguez's influence has expanded globally thanks to spanish language media company, an entity hoping to tap into this new audience of latino conservatives.

since it was established in 2022, voz has disseminated online and on tv. this year they partnered with daystar, a national christian television network launched in 1997 carrying content from spanish-language influencers. the branch held behind all of this in the partnership is orlando salazar. he's a former vice chair and a republican national hispanic assembly, one of the nation's largest conservative latino organizations. he openly backed trump in 2016. >> welcome to our home. >> this whole building is voz studios. >> glen beck, it turns out the former fox news fire brand turned podcaster is a big

supporter of voz media's mission. >> hi, sir. >> how are you? >> orlando is giving us a tour of voz media and he said how you essentially housed the whole company here. >> i mean, what he's doing is so important. just to have hispanic community is the future. >> glen beck, who is a huge personality, what potential does he see in voz media? >> one of the first things i did when i first met him is offered his content to us. he said orlando, our content is your content. anything you'd like to use that we have and you want to use it in spanish, you're welcome to do it. >> what's interesting is daystar has typically tried to reach a pro dominantly white evangelical audience. suddenly, they are investing in spanish-speaking latinos. why do you think they are doing that now? >> the browning of america.

>> see potential? >> but the potential to reach millions of latinos daystar and voz are poised to play an influential rule in the crucial persuadable part of the electorate. >> what is the power of the latino voting bloc? >> the the latino evangelical voting bloc will emerge as one of the most critical voing blocs in the electorate, period. >> going to your last question, how much power does the latino evangelical base have? >> i think we're in the middle of figuring that out. i think about 2020. in 2020, where does donald trump launch his national effort to court evangelicals? in miami-dade county. he doesn't go to ohio, pennsylvania, wisconsin. he goes to the maejty minority miami-dade county. in 2020, you see how evangelicals are at the heart of the end roads that trump makes. we know that latinos are the

fastest growing group, at least 6 identify. you have scholars that predict that by 2030, over 50% of latinos will identify as evangelical. what's interesting, though, is that this is a growing segment of evangelicals that is so fundamentally different from white evangelicals. because they are first and second geeration immigrants, they are spanish speakers, many of these latinos are coming from latin america holding these deep evangelical believes. others are catholics converting to evangelicals. and they are finding this community and refuge in a place that's now suddenly being politicized. >> msnbc contributor, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >> such an important story. >> absolutely. that does it for us this morning. anna cabrera picks up the

coverage now. right now, breaking news at a d.c. courthouse. the first hearing in donald trump's federal election case sets a decision. is there any chance this goes to trial before november's vote? plus heartbreak in georgia. four people killed in a school shooting. details of online threats that have the teen suspect on radar last year. also ahead, a high-profile republican says she will vote for kamala harris. liz cheney's strong rebuke of donald trump and her message to fellow gop members. amp