sinner, of course, is number one so he's not underdog and favored to win. but tiafoe, very much on the minds of all the folks here at the open today. really rooting for the underdog. >> i love frances tiafoe, he has a great story, great attitude. and i love you, yasmin. i love you. >> love you. you like my hat? >> i read in "the new york times" you didn't go to the open unless you got a hat, so i'm glad you got yourself a hat. >> reporter: i got two. >> i'm going to come get it. that's it for me. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york and it's friday. in the last 90 minutes we witnessed a political bombshell in the making.

former congresswoman liz cheney, vice chairman of the january 6th committee and face of the republican dynasty in america who earlier this weekend dorised vice president kamala harris has gone even further. this time saying that she and her father, former vice president dick cheney, will do something that, if you are a casual follower of american politics might mean hell has frozen over. dick cheney is voting for the democratic nominee for president. dick cheney is voting for vice president kamala harris. here she is in conversation with "the atlantic's" mark leibovitz making this news in austin, texas. >> dick cheney, a beloved figure among democrats for many, many years. do you -- if you know who he will be supporting or who he'll be voting for, do you care to share with us who he might be voting for? >> dick cheney will be voting for kamala harris.

[ applause ] >> wow. words i never expected to hear. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> you know, if you think about the moment that we're in, and you think about how serious this moment is, you know, my dad believes and he's said publicly that there's never been an individual in our country who is as grave a threat to our democracy as donald trump is. and that's -- that's the moment that we're facing. >> i'm going to show you all the news liz cheney made because there's a lot more, but i want to stop here. i worked for dick and liz cheney. what dick cheney just did and what liz just announced is he

made it impossible, made it impossible for the rob portmans and the chris christies and the bill barrs to sustain their position. but somehow, in some universe, kamala harris is worse than donald trump or writing someone in or doing nothing. but the cheneys went further. liz cheney is also endorsing the u.s. nominee for texas, collin alred over ted cruz. that's where we start today, with some of our favorite friends. tim miller is here with us, also joining us, democratic pollster to tell us what the democrats do with all of this, cornel belcher is here, the host of "politicians nation," the reverend al sharpton, and former top prosecutor at the department of justice, andrew weissmann is

with us. to miller, your thoughts. >> well, in some ways this is a shock, the darth vader dick cheney voting for the democrats. it should be a wake-up call to everybody. in other ways it's not a surprise because of what we've seen from liz cheney and the backbone from the cheneys. dick cut an ad for her in her primary that she lost to a maga republican when she was sacrificed at the altar of donald trump's insurrection by the republican party. in that ad he said in our nation's 246-year-history there's never been an individual that's never been a greater threat than donald trump. there's nothing that liz will do than to lead the effort to make sure donald trump is never near the oval office and she will succeed. i mean, that's as straightforward as it gets. that is classic dick cheney. you know, love him or hate him. he always was clear-eyed about what he thought was the right

approach. in this case dick cheney is looking at this and seeing donald trump as the greatest threat in the history of the republic. i mean, that is not mincing words. i agree with everything you said in the intro. i think this is huge news. we should mention that now the last two republican vps will not be voting for trump. mike pence is neutral, i guess. and dick cheney is -- so, donald trump's home vp is not voting for him and the previous vp is voting against him. i think that's telling. and saying something you said in the intro, condoleezza rice, as an example, was on fox news earlier this week trying to do this two-step where she said, there are four horsemen of the apocalypse coming, isolationism, protectionism, nativism and populism and we need to fight against them. she's on fox but she doesn't say trump's name. and it's like, well, who are you talking about with those four threats? if you think things are

perilous, which were her words, and those four threats are causing peril to the republic and your colleague in the bush cabinet thinks one candidate is the greatest threat to our republic, what is the obvious next step? it's refreshing that dick cheney and liz cheney have made the obvious first step and hopefully other colleagues of theirs follow in their footsteps. >> not to talk out of school, but the construct is george w. bush's. he writes about it in decision points and he's privately, since before he left the presidency, worried about those threats. but the horses aren't headless, you know. the head on all four horses, tim, is donald trump. donald trump is galloping through not just the republican party but the world. cozied up to victor or ban, vladimir putin and kim jong-un. and i think the question for all of them, wherever they go, is

what's the difference between how you see the world and dick and liz cheney see the world? i attest, there is no ideological difference between condoleezza rice's world view as it pertains to vladimir putin and viktor orban and dick and liz cheney. the variable is somewhere else, right? >> yeah. they have the courage to speak honestly and to deal with the blowback that the cheneys have dealt with. liz cheney lost her seat in leadership. you don't get invited on brett bair show, i guess, if you say the words donald trump who is the one that is the threat, the threat of all these horses. i should say one other thing. one rationale that folks might have given to say why they're different than dick and liz in the past is trump would have more people aligned with him around him. the other big news story this week is we've learned again, it's been confirmed again, that

actually trump has the most isolationist and the most dangerous people around him this time. i mean, he chose jd vance to be his vp at the advice of tucker carlson. among a couple other isolationists. you know, tucker, who is platforming a neo-nazi of historians -- a historian that says churchill is the bad guy in world war ii. and we know -- we know jd vance is saying he doesn't care about the ukrainians. he doesn't care about them. it's like that is going to be his inner circle next time. a bunch of people that are in their view of the free world and america's role in the world to the view of internationalists and the kind of bipartisan national security consensus since world war ii. we know there will not be other people amenable to the condi

rices of the world. we know kamala harris in line with the bipartisan national security consensus. or donald trump, who is a threat to it. and a threat to our republic, as dick cheney said. >> i don't want to beat a dead horse. i didn't mean to make another horse reference. but what you just said is so vital. dick cheney's foreign policy views are what alienated him from all of the democratic party and large swaths of the republican party. that's what ushered in donald trump. dick cheney sees the world and sees america's enemies like vladimir putin, kim jong-un, hamas and the threat of terrorism and the threat -- economic threats from china and whatnot more like kamala harris does than anything donald trump will do pro speculatively is a political and ideological

earthquake that's being felt and reported out all around the world. cornel belcher, i have never covered a republican making the move into the pro-democracy coalition without giving credit to the democratic party and the democratic pro-democracy coalition for having all of us. what do they do with dick cheney? >> look, i am completely gobsmacked. i got to tell you, many, many years ago i would have never in a million years thought i'd be sitting here one day talking about dick cheney and the cheneys endorsing a democratic nominee. that's how incredibly our world has changed over the last couple of years with the rise of donald trump. look, i don't have to tell you this, but i think i want to lean in with our viewers what a big freaking deal this is. there's probably about -- there's few iconic conservative

names over the last two decades than the cheneys, right? you know, and lord knows we could disagree, and certainly disagree with dick cheney on a lot of policy and policy issues, but we don't think of him as someone who is not patriotic and loves this country and fights for democracy and what he believes about america. so, he was the vice president -- a republican vice president and their people is now leaning into support for a democrat. that is an incredible, incredible moment in history because we've never seen the likes of this in our modern history. and i've grown cynical. i think we've talked about this on the show before. we've grown cynical about how much endorsements matter or move people. and in the last decade, just in

my mind, i think there's a couple of endorsements that move the ball that were impactful. one of them was another republican because it was -- it was secretary -- the late, great colin powell would endorse barack obama. that was an impactful, meaningful endorsement. when ted kennedy endorsed obama, i think it was a needle-moving moment for, again, obama. i think this is a needle-moving moment for vice president harris because, look, as you know, a lot of republicans have been sitting out on the fence. what bigger permission structure for conservatives to lean in and vote for the pro-democratic movement than liz and dick cheney offering up the sort of permission structure and approve points for it? i think it's huge. if i were the campaign, i would literally be running television ads with the cheneys and talking

about bipartisanship and talking about something bigger than left versus right, but something bigger about america. >> yeah, cornel, all that i would add, i agree with everything you just said, i mean, i have a million thoughts about buses with josh shapiro and dick cheney. the campaign operative in me just wants to be in the room figuring out, what do we do, what do we ask them to do if they're willing to help make their endorsement come to pass in 60 days. but the other piece, the frame on this is, whether she wants it or not, kamala harris now carries the banner of the only pro-democracy ticket before the voters and whether she wants to grab that and run with it is up to her. that's a strategic decision. but there's no other frame under which to assemble her vast coalition, which stretches from the enthusiastic endorsements from bernie sanders and aoc and

the enthusiastic endorsements from liz and dick cheney. this has never happened before. we've never seen this before. i think we have to stop comparing her candidacy to obama's. obama was a phenomenon and historic. this is wider. we don't have the data to say it's deeper. i think the comparison is because of the crowds and enthusiasm and the history she makes. but idealogically this is wider and this has never happened before in american politics. >> it's potentially -- it's potentially bigger and more grand because it is not at all partisan. it's about sort of fundamentally, do you believe the ideal of democracy and hearts stop. and i -- the idea we're not going back to lean into it. again, i worked for obama so this is touchy territory. what we had was special. i think it may have the

potential to be something even greater rather than -- because of the reach of what you just said as a coalition that has bernie sanders and dick cheney in it. that's never happened before. >> do you cut an ad with dick in it? i spent a lot of time with voters who voted obama, obama, trump. do you -- does it make the point that the harris/walz ticket is not a republican or democrat ticket, it's a pro-american ticket if you see bernie and dick cheney making the case? >> can you imagine -- >> can you imagine? >> yes, an ad with bernie and dick cheney, like, yes, absolutely. you didn't get dick cheney to do it. you absolutely do it. >> call somebody. this just happens, so i do want to play more of what liz cheney

said. she endorsed collin allred over ted cruz. >> one of the most important things we need to do as a country as we begin to rebuild our politics is we need to elect serious people. i want to say specifically, though, here in texas, you guys do have a tremendous, serious candidate running for united states senate. his name is -- [ applause ] >> you're stepping on the news, guys. let her speak. >> well, it's not ted cruz. but it's colin allred is somebody i served with in the house and somebody who really when you think about the kind of

leaders our country needs and go into this point about, you know, you might not agree on every policy position, but we need people who are going to serve in good faith. we need people who are honorable, public servants. in this race that is colin allred, so i'll be working on his behalf. >> so, when dick cuts his bernie ad that i've imagined here on live tv, she's going to go in, and if he asks, cut ads for colin allred. she may be part of ushering in a pro-democracy movement in november. >> my quip is you'll have a bernie and dick adventure, but i'm going to give you -- stick with me on this now. thinking about my career. so, when sammy, the underboss of the gambino family flipped and

cooperated, there were sort of shock waves through the gambino family and every other new york family. and what we saw was just a parade of cooperators baz it suddenly was something you could do, even though these people had taken an oath to -- and there was just mentioned, permission structure of, oh, i can do this. and i think politics, speaking as a citizen, i think politics, you think it's almost like religion or a tribe. it's something so much that's part of you in terms of, oh, i'm a democrat or i'm a republican. you don't think about the ability to step out of it, to say, i'm going to vote in a different party. so seeing somebody who -- as republican as you can possibly get as dick cheney, and seeing that he has said, in a way that's a lot more real than just

saying country over party, i mean, it is actually giving meaning to it and it's saying all of those foundational things you think are impossible, that i can't switch from being a democrat to a republican or vice versa, is really nonsense, that there are fundamental principles at stake. so this is -- i think it's really huge. and i think it's needed because i think it's such a hard thing for so many people to think of themselves doing something so different than how they were raised. >> you're making a point about permission structures and something that's impossible until possible. and then the possible becomes contagious. >> you just don't think it's something you can do. it's not even in your imagination that that's -- because you just haven't done it and you haven't seen it. and that's why, you know, liz cheney and now dick cheney are leaders. it's like that's what you want from leaders.

somebody who really steps up. and also doesn't do this sort of namby-pamby, i'm not going to vote. >> which is the lamest thing. do i have a minute? while i thought the day i read about joe biden's decision to step out of the race, and i think what i said the moment we were on tv talking about it was, an act of political sacrifice like this must be contagious. it must make other people do hard things. it must make the generals dig down and say, i don't think the military should be political but this is different. it must make republicans like liz and dick cheney dig down and say, i've devoted my life to conservativism, but this is different. liz and dick cheney are one of the early examples, and adam kinzinger and jeff duncan, the other republicans who have walked kamala harris' candidacy.

i don't think it happens without joe biden setting the circumstances. >> i totally agree. joe biden set the temperature and showed the self-sacrifice, but i think dick cheney, i probably led more marches against dick cheney than anybody around. and for dick cheney to do this is really shifting the ground. this is dick cheney. we marched on weapons of mass destruction wasn't there, all of that. >> i remember. >> but for him to say, no, she's not un-american. imagine now what donald trump and all have been trying to project her as. unamerican doesn't believe in the country, calling us socialists. now you have dick cheney saying i'm going to vote for -- he just ripped the ground from under donald trump's whole campaign because now you're not arguing with any aoc or those of us -- you're arguing with dick cheney on whether she's a real american. and with liz cheney endorsing

allred, he's no longer -- i'm preaching in houston on sunday for reverend anderson, baptist, part of what we're dealing with is -- allred is not a black candidate. he's a good candidate. he doesn't even have to explain that anymore. the whoelg thing is flipped upside down. and who would have ever thought that the cheneys would do it, but they've ripped all of these excuses off trying to paint her as just some black radical and allred is that nobody, the most right winger, will believe dick cheney and them would do that other than they thought it was best for the country. and he's somebody i've always disagreed with, but i now have to say he's done what's right for the country. >> you're on the same side. >> i'm trying to adjust in my seat. >> unbelievable. unbelievable day. no one is going anywhere. there's a lot more to show you. we've just scratched the surface

on this big news event, big news day. donald trump is in court this morning doing nothing normal for candidate running for president in 9 final days of his first and perhaps only debate with vice president harris. there's that and other legal headlines to talk about. we'll get to all of it ahead. later in the broadcast, the other ticket, vice president harris and governor tim walz putting the fight against the republican extremist agenda at the top of their campaign to-do list this weekend. we'll show you how they plan to do that and much more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. en "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. (vo) if you have graves' disease, your eye symptoms could mean something more. that gritty feeling can't be brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease,

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i have been really impressed watching, for example, the democratic convention, listening to her speech at that convention, learning about her life story, learning about the story of her success and the extent to which it's an american story. and i think we all have to walk ourselves back from this abyss we've looked over in our politics and work together to build a better future for this country. >> tell me, how much of the democratic convention did you watch? >> i watched more of it than i care to admit. i'll tell you -- >> yeah, yeah. >> i'm kind of a nerd that way.

but i think that watching the extent to which the party made clear its embrace of love of this country, and, you know, contrasting that love of this country, the willingness to recognize how important american leadership is in the world, contrasting that with where the republican party has gone. you know, it seems on many days, you know, donald trump and jd vance are doing everything they can to drive reagan republicans away. >> tim miller. >> i mean, a-plus, standing ovation. she's absolutely right, obviously. and i would add to that one more thing, in addition to driving maga republicans away, the

republican party is doing the opposite of what democrats are doing. they are tearing down america. they don't like america as it is. there are lots of parts of america, immigrants, trans people, the bud light cans they hate now. they dislike america as it is. they want to make america something they imagine it was 60 years ago. and so i think that contrast is stark at the convention. one other thought that rev sparked this when i was listening to him. i think that on just a positive kamala side of things, the dick cheney endorsement in particular of her is also a validater that maybe she shouldn't have to have this validater, but because of misogyny, because she's a woman, and there are will be people, is kamala harris strong enough to stand up to xi, stand up to putin?

i think it's an important validater that now in addition to all of the evidence that she has shown, that she'll continue to show at the debate and at the policy rollouts, you can also say, dick cheney thinks she's ready to stand up to vladimir putin and xi. so, like, who are you to judge she's not? meanwhile, most of the generals that were around donald trump and his own vice president don't think that he is capable of standing up to xi and putin. it does idynamic, that alpha ga that trump is trying to play. and i think bolsters kamala in a way that is helpful and that is additive to what she's already done herself. >> i'd love to say that's not happening. it is happening. that joker on fox said, quote, the generals would have their way with her. that is happening. and dick cheney is a great, how about them apples to him. >> no doubt about it. because you couldn't have come with a more, in my opinion,

iconic figure of the reagan republicans than dick cheney and someone who is considered very much hawkish in terms of the military. so for him to put his stamp of approval on her, removes all of that because, as i said, you've got to debate dick cheney. now you have to tear down people that even some of your trumpsters grew up looking up to and admiring, seeing them as a pillar of strength. now you're going to call them a name, donald trump? now you're going to say dick cheney is not pro-american? i think -- and he's got to go into a debate and have to deal with the cheneys on the other side. how do you defend that? where is the counterbalance on the other side? what major democrat or major moderate has endorsed donald trump? donald trump has lost support, including his former staff. it's really a bad day for him

because in a million years, i'm going to dream, i'm a civil rights activist, i never dreamed dick cheney would support kamala harris. >> it's such a remarkable -- i have days like you. i don't know if cynical is the word but i feel despair of what a party i was once a party in has ushered in, especially when i covered the supreme court at a personal level. but there is something that revives the possible because something could never happen until it does. and then the question is, what happens next? and i think that some of that was, we owe a lot of that frame, as i said before, to joe biden. who gives up this thing they fought for their whole life? well, joe biden did. and who says there's something more important and patriotic than conservativism and the old republican party, it's the democratic ticket, it's kamala harris and tim walz. to this point of sort of

breaking through, all you have to say is dick cheney. that breaks through. and people's reactions are visceral. among democrats, they're often negative. among republicans they are cred, it is street cred. again, what do you do in 60 days with that instant cred on military, on national security, on conservativism? >> well, i've got to lean into the point here that, you know, we shouldn't live in a world where women candidates, particularly women of color candidates need validaters, but, unfortunately, we do live in that world. now you have to take a stage and it's not, you know, harris versus trump. it is trump versus dick cheney.

and -- but i also think, again, it's something larger happening here where you have republicans coming out, at least old school republicans coming out and saying what's happening in our country is dark and i can't lean into the darkness with donald trump. and i think it's a very sort of rallying around the flag on a very rallying around the values and ideas of america in a way that is not partisan. again, i would lean into this. i think the potential here for something bigger than a political movement. it's something bigger here at stake when you have dick cheney and other republicans leaning in to this -- into a candidacy. it does become larger than harris and it becomes larger than just the democratic party. this is really something that is quintessentially about the future of america, whether or not we remain a democracy and whether or not we remain the

shining, you know, city on the hill or are we gotham city? and i think mainstream republicans, old-school republicans and regular americans, they don't want to be gotham city. we still believe in that shining city on the hill, that is america. it is hopeful, optimistic and the best of america. >> it's the light, right. it's pointing people toward the light as opposed to what is not hidden darkness, but there's -- you know, there's a plan for the darkness. thank you. we had you here to talk about the state of the race. we'll have to do that on monday because this -- maybe it will look different next week. come back for that conversation monday. thank you for starting us off today. tim and the rev, stick around with me. i want to show you what she said about law enforcement. i have to sneak in a quick break first. but she's deploying her sharp, political skills already on behalf of the harris/walz

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switch to shopify so you can build it better, scale it faster and sell more. much more. take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify. [child laughing] (♪♪) (♪♪) [child giggling with delight] (♪♪) come on you two. dinner time. ♪ ooooh. ooooh. ♪ i think donald trump today is appearing the fraternal order of police. and he will try to convince them that he is pro-law enforcement. and everybody ought to watch the disgusting assault on law enforcement by people that he sent to the capitol, that he

watched, he knew it was happening, he watched it happen. and instead of telling people to go home, he sent out a tweet saying that mike pence was a coward, didn't have the courage to do what needed to be done, which we know further enflamed the mob and which he knew would further enflame the mob. just think about from a human perspective, he sat in the dining room next to the oval office, while his family members were pleading with him to tell the mob to go home, while his senior staff was pleading with them to tell the mob to go home, they told him -- they gave him a note that said a civilian had been shot at the door to the house chamber. and he still wouldn't tell the mob to go home. >> "new york times" editorial has joined our conversation. but i want to come to you on

this. she's, brick by brick, disqualifying him from serving as commander in chief in the same way, it's a political frame as to what she did as an investigator. >> the idea, especially for her as one of the principal people in the january 6th community, that he would be speaking to law enforcement as sort of the law enforcement candidate. he can't take the mantel of reagan republicans on that. i would add to her litany, is numerous people who have been charged and convicted of assaulting, in terrible ways, law enforcement, those are people that donald trump says he is thinking that they should be pardoned because they're patriots. how is that consistent with being pro law enforcement? these are people who have been convicted. >> great point. >> let's also just remember,

donald trump himself is a convict. he has been convicted. he is facing other criminal cases. he just today was in a court of appeals arguing why his sexual assault and defamation verdicts should be set aside. so, he is -- i mean, the idea that somebody who is a convicted felon, who is saying, i want to pardon people who did some of the worst possible things you can think of, which is attacking the capitol. we all witnessed it. you don't need a trial for this. we all saw it. is sitting there thinking people are stupid enough to think that you can just go and say, i'm pro law enforcement. those are words, but we've seen actions that are completely enafter to those words. >> he also calls him depraved. let me show you that. >> the idea that you have the president of the united states,

whose fundamental, constitutional duty is to defend this nation, to ensure that our laws are faithfully executed, that he would watch and assault that he had instigated, he would watch this take place on television, he would ignore the pleas of people to tell the mob to leave, and he would do that for over three hours. look, i don't care what your policy perspective is, i don't care if you're a democrat or a republican or an independent, you cannot look at that behavior and come to any conclusion other than, that is depravity. that is depravity. and you cannot give somebody like that power ever again. >> that's an indictment of him as a human, depraved human. >> yeah, it is. and i'm sitting here a little bit in shock because, i like the reverend as a college student,

marched against dick cheney and george bush and the iraq war. and yet i think what this shows us is not only how extreme the republican party has become and how untethered from democracy, but this is such a powerful statement because i think for most republican voters, most people don't hate their fellow americans. most people don't agree with donald trump on many issues. but there's a certain conservative line of thinking within the republican party that says, i'm going to vote the party line. and i think when you see people like the cheneys say, i cannot in good conscience do that, it really adds a moment of doubt to those voters who they may not like what donald trump says on twitter. in fact, they're offended. they have daughters. they have wives. they themselves are disgusted. maybe they're veterans. they don't like what he's said, what he's done, they're concerned about january 6th,

they see it all yet they're republican voters. this is going to add a measure of doubt and invitation to say actually maybe it is okay to cross party lines. maybe it's a good thing. and i also just think we're sitting here talking about the gender dynamics of this race. the reality is that the first joe biden and now kamala harris, you know, those campaigns -- that campaign has been looking at the drift among men of all racial groups. and i do think, though it shouldn't take this, that having someone like dick cheney come out and say, she's strong, she's going to support -- harris is going to support america and its values. that is also a really important validater. again, it shouldn't take that, but i think it's going to make a lot of republican voters think twice. >> let me show you -- i think it also takes it out of a political decision. you're not at home choosing between two political parties. you're making a patriotic decision. here is liz cheney about the

decision to endorse vice president harris was not political at all. >> i have felt that it's very important that this decision not be viewed as or -- because it isn't a political decision. that it's a decision that i wanted to be able to talk about and that i reflected on, that's very much based upon my view of what our duty is. but my view very much is that those of us who believe in the defense of our democracy, in the defense of our constitution, the survival of our republic, have a duty in this election cycle to come together, to put those things above politics and -- [ applause ] >> and i look forward to the days when we will again be

having, you know, debates about tax policy and national security policy and everything else because that will mean that we have made it through what is right now a very grave threat to the functioning of the republic. >> it's not just sort of stopping and taking out of the political, it's also taking the moment out of the continuum. she's saying let's take this moment out of the space time continuum and we'll have that moment where we fight with policy at a later date. it's sort of stopping the clock on all of that. i wonder if you think that will help as well? >> i do think it helps. and i think it sets a pretty powerful standard for other nationally known republicans looking at, for example, the governor of georgia, who's been trying to walk a very thin line, governor kemp, supporting and holding fund-raisers for donald trump while at the same time saying that he's going to, thank god, defend his state's

democracy against a kind of maga takeover of its elections board. so, i think this sets a higher and a better standard, which is country over party. and i think the question then becomes, who's next? it becomes harder to operate in that gray area where you get to condemn donald trump but you still are, again, hosting dinners for him. and that should be unacceptable. you know, i think trumpism needs to be ostracized in american politics for what it is. for un-american, for undemocratic and it needs to be done within the republican party. so, you know, hopefully this isn't just, you know, one family. who's next? >> i hear you. yeah, the cheneys have always been good at eliminating any shades of gray from any debate. that will be applied to our domestic politics. just saying. no one is going anywhere. we'll be back with the other big story of the day. stay with us. ay stay with us

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and this is not normal news, 60 days out from the presidential election, the current republican nominee, donald trump, was today back in court this morning as his lawyers sought to over turn the verdict in the e. jean carroll case in which he was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation. and over in the hush money trial, in which he was found

guilty of 34 felony counts, the judge delayed donald trump's sentencing after the election, that is now scheduled to happen on november 26th. on that the "new york times" reporting that while it will avert a courtroom speculation, but it will keep voters in the dark about whether the republican presidential nominee will eventually spend time behind bars. we're back with mara, tim, the rev al and andrew. what is judge merchan's calculation. >> let me make sure people understand what is in front of him. he had two motions. he had a motion that donald trump had made based on the supreme court having said that even in a trial that has nothing to do with the presidency, you cannot introduce evidence that is sort of official act presidential conduct. and there were little whisps of that in thethrow out the whole

least get a new trial. and that was a motion that the judge had said he would decide by september 16th. the second was a motion to put off the -- if he didn't grant that, to put off the trial two days later on september 18th. and the d.a. didn't really help judge merchan because the d.a. said, we're not going to take a position but we could understand why you might want to put it off and to be fair there is some legal issue about whether you're allowed to appeal that immunity issue before sentencing. so there is -- because we're in such a new world, because the supreme court issued that crazy decision. so that is where he was. and so, um, he agreed to put the sentencing off and the immunity decision. so all of that, those two things are now put off until november.

i'm not so sure that ultimately even though i know donald trump asked for it, i'm not so sure that is really going to work to his advantage. because one of the things that it does, by judge merchan putting both of those things off, the supreme court cannot get its hands on this case before the election. and i'm such a detactor of what they did in that immunity case, it is so hard not to view it as political. in a capital "p" sense, this makes it impossible for them to do and it means that judge merchan will be able to reach this decision with the election done. and it is really, i think, when you think about what this sentence should be, it is sort of irrelevant. it is, whether he becomes president or doesn't, that is something that he could put aside and we'll all know that at the time of the sentencing. so, you know, yes, would

everyone would like to have seen the sentence beforehand and that-v that fact but i don't think that was likely to happen anyway because of the appellate issue. so i'm not sure the end result given the world we're in is really that good for donald trump because it means that that verdict is sort of in -- there for the voters to consider. >> your thoughts? >> well, i think, i agree with andrew. all of us would have wanted to see the date that have been set, set. but it takes the politics out of it. it takes away donald trump saying they're just doing this to pry to embarrass me before the electionment and it is after the election and all of these things will be litigated. and i shouldn't say it on your show, i said it on mine over the weekend. but november 26th, we usually bake turkeys around thanksgiving. >> that is good. i got nothing. i got nothing. i will let that be the last word. this hour has been too good to

mess it up. you're amazing. i never thought i would afrpg your this news having worked for dick cheney and sat across from dick cheney having felt too squishy in my own moderate republican politics but to hear you guys it was a million times better than anything i could have conjured up to say. thank you so much for being here today. up next for us, an incoherent policy speech may just be one other reason why kamala harris is lining up ceo after ceo after ceo behind her candidacy for president. much more news straight ahead. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break.

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and, look, you, the folks here with a little less hair and a little grayer, i want to be very clear about this. this country needs to function in political parties at least. we don't need one and a cult on the other side. we do not need that. >> no one is looking for a cult. it is 5:00 in new york. that was what our politics in this country at this moment has become. one party fighting to uphold the freedoms an rights that we all hold dear and the other has morphed into a cult, with an autocrat with 34 criminal convictions to his name and possibly more to come. such a cult that as we discussed in the last hour, former vice president dick cheney and his daughter congresswoman liz cheney will be voting against

it. with just 60 days to go until election day, the harris-walz campaign is doing everything it can to make that contrast clear to all voters. launching a big weekend of action this weekend, focusing on the dangers of a second trump presidency and highlighting the radical project 2025 agenda. nbc news is reporting, as part of the effort that aides said was the biggest weekend of action to date, the campaign will have more than 2,000 events that it will hit millions of voters and volunteers will work shifts and will talk to voters, quote, about trump's extreme plan to ban abortion nationwide, cut social security and medicare and spike taxes by $3,900 each year for middle class families. p let's take a closer look at what the cult of the republican party has become.

one, it was a party of foreign policy and then embraced isolationism and turned backs on allies, they were once the party of law and order as well. then, the republicans nominee ated a convicted felon for president who fell short of disrupting the peaceful transfer of power not even four years agoch and then they say themself as the party of being good for business and economic issues. while they are not that either. because today cnbc was first to report that 88 current and former top executives from all across corporate america have endorsed kamala harris for president in a brand-new letter. signed by leaders of some huge high-profile companies like yelp, box and snap. and james murdoch, the former ceo of fox and the heir to the empire and that they would get the biggest boost from democrats

and kamala harris in the white house. from reuters reporting on that story, quote, under a republican sweep or even with a divided government led by donald trump, economic output would take a hit next year, mostly from increased tariffs on imports and tighter immigration policies. goldman sachs said on tuesday, job growth under a democratic government would likely be stronger than under the republicans, goldman sachs said, or maybe the ceo's are backing harris because they saw whatever this was yesterday. listen to this the question and try to pick out a single coherent answer or policy position in trump's response. >> can you commit to prioritizing legislation to make childcare affordable and, if so, what specific piece of legislation will you advance. >> i will do that and we're sitting down, i was -- somebody

we had senator marco rubio and my daughter ivanka was so impactful on that issue. it is a very important issue. but, i think, when you talk about the kind of numbers that i'm talking about, that -- because childcare is childcare, it is -- there is something -- you have to have it in this country, you have to have it. but when you talk about those numbers compared to the kind of numbers that i'm talking about, by taxing foreign nations at levels that they're not used to but they're get used to it very quickly and it will not stop them from doing business with us, but they'll have a substantial tax. those numbers are so much bigger than any numbers that we're talking about including childcare. >> i happen expected him to blurt out tomato, man, woman, tamale, at the end to prove he was okay. but he didn't. it is where we start the hour. co-founder and executive director ian bass is back with

us and columnist and contributor charlie sykes. we had planned to start with this. it happened yesterday. we haven't had a chance to talk about it. but i have to put it in the frame of what i think is a political moment, dick and liz cheney, as augmenters of all of the types of folks who are publicly embracing and endorsing vice president harris in this new cycle and the mounting incoherence from donald trump. you first. >> it reminds me of a moment back when i was working in the white house under president obama. and the debate that was taking place in the country at the time was what to do with the expiring bush tax cuts and there was a debate about keeping some of them in place or the progressive left of the democratic party wanted to raise them. and i asked them, it was not my role in the white house but i asked one of the political

strategists that president obama was coming down on the side of the debate of maintaining it in place and the person said, the republican party has taken a turn to the far right. and have positioned themselves on one extreme american politics. and you know what we're going to do. we're going to sit our bag fat ass right in the middle because that is what makes a politician successful in this country. and i think we're looking at something like that happening right now. which is that donald trump has taken the cult, as tim walz put up, of the republican party, so far to an extreme of the american political spectrum, that kamala harris is doing the smart political thing, but i i this i -- i think that democrats incentivize and she's putting herself in center of politics and a coalition that runs from liz warren, to liz cheney. an that is not only a popular way to govern and a popular way to be a strategic sort of candidate, but it is also what

democracy incentivized. it is working when someone has the broadest coalition as possible and kamala harris in that way is governing as a candidate in a small democracy in a way that we know donald trump is not. >> charlie sykes, you'll have to do better than ian bass's big fat ass comment now. your thoughts? >> yeah, i don't think i can. look, think we talked about this in the last hour, how truly extraordinary it is to be sitting here at this moment, to realize that dick cheney, a two-term former republican vice president is now saying that he's going to vote for kamala harris. this is inconceivable a few years ago. and you know, yes, this is to vice president's harris's credit but it under lines how far outside of the main scene donald trump is. you have the two former living republican vice presidents saying they don't want to see donald trump back in the white house and here is my fantasy,

nicolle. i'm hoping that dick cheney opens up the door to other republicans who know who and what donald trump is. that it is not enough just for him to say it, but you could imagine in the next 60 days, seeing donald trump's former secretaries of defense, his former chief of staff john kelly, his former national security advisers, it is not inconceivable that you could have a long list of living former secretary of defense saying let' set aside our political differences, this is not about political or -- this man should never be allowed back in the center of power. and i think that the cheneys have perhaps opened the door a crack to this. but you know, in terms of how extraordinary this moment is, you go back and try to imagine, nicolle, four, five, six, seven years ago, imagine dick cheney

making this -- make no mistake about it. when the cheney's cross this red line, there is no going back. they know that the republican party that they used to be part of it is gone and never going to be restored. but hopefully this sends a signal to conservative anti-trump voters out there who might not be ideology attune to the democratic party to say this is a sign this is not an emergency, that we're not dealing with the normal choices of american politics and this gives harris a great deal of cred when it comes to national security issues, national defense issues. but also, again, it underlines the completely extraordinary threat that donald trump poses. so it is an amazing moment and i'm glad that we're not glossing over it. >> and charlie, just to follow

up, the first pages of liz cheney's book out earlier this year, are about sort of the back story of how she marshals her father and her deep connections in the defense and the department of defense world and to write that extraordinary letter after trump's defeat. and so i think of what the cheney network signifies and you think about what could be activated politically. i sort of used a dick cheney bernie sanders ad that you could run a p.a. in upper peninsula michigan and places that you want to speak to people that don't necessarily have partisan instincts when if comes to politics, but they want to see themselves and if they see themselves in the vast ideology spectrum of support for harris, that might be effective. but what the cheney's activate,

is the deepest military sort of voice and beliefs. what would that look like if you could say more about that. >> that is what i was thinking about. that extraordinary letter that went out in early january of 2021 from all of the living former s.e.c.s of defense saying that the military play nod role in the election. now, again, that was a signal to the country that this was a -- this was a serious alarming situation. and the cheneys were the ones that put that together. so what would it look like? i'm not the political consultant on the show but i could imagine a television ads pounding in the swing states from one official after another, former secretary of state, former national security advisers, former chiefs of staff, from both parties, but also who had worked with donald trump telling the american people that this is a crucial choice. they work with, they have watched donald trump, they know

what he's capable of doing. and they stand for a strong america. they have been involved in the military. and they're telling people, look, based on our experience, this man should not be given the nuclear codes again. this man should never be entrusted with being commander-in-chief again. and i could imagine that there are voters right now that are -- who have been telling themselves, i don't like donald trump, i don't care for his personality, but kamala harris is too liberal and i don't like some of her policy. but when they see that, they realize maybe they should put the ideology aside for the moment and recognize what is at stake. i can't imagine a more powerful ad running on the air here in wisconsin or michigan or pennsylvania than one general, one secretary of defense, one national security adviser after another not to mention the former vice president of the united states saying, don't do

this, we're doing something that we never thought we would do, we're supporting a democrat, not because we are now all democrats, but because what donald trump represents is so antithetical to american values and what we thought the republican party stood for. >> you know, ian, i've learned from our conversations that the pro-democracy side needs moments where you're not just saying autocracy versus democracy but you're able to show it to a disengaged number of not just americans but any country sort of in this tussle. and i wonder, we called on you lots of times when the tipping point felt like it was tipping us some other way toward not democratic. does this potentially represent a tip in the pro-democracy direction? >> i think it absolutely does and i want to take a moment here

not just to flatter you both, but to point out something. charliy, you said you thought that the prp -- that dick cheney coming out, you have started the process of opening the door for others. if we had gone back 10, 15 years or maybe even nine years ago, the three of us were on very different sides of most political disagreements. nicolle, you work for the administration before mine from a different party. charlie, i imagine you're radio show during the time i was in the white house was railing against things that we were doing. you both were courageous in seeing a moment in history that called on us to put aside the tribe of political party and even a lot of our policy preferences to, as you both have noted, stand up for the foundational elements of american democracy.

and what they fundamentally boil down and i think liz cheney has very eloquently articulated this, is we are supposed to be able to try out different policies that get floated by alternative parties and get selected by the voters in different elections and if they work, those people get re-elect and if they don't work, then we throw the bums out. but we get to decide on that every four years. and what representative cheney has said is that she's willing to vote for a candidate whose policies she disagrees with, because what fundamentally matters at the end of the four years, we all, as americans, have the agency and the freedom to decide if we want to continue down that path, or go down another one. and when we lose that, we lose freedom. and what donald trump represents, as he's proven what four years what he did on january 6, 2021 and the weeks leading up to that and the years since, is that he will not accept the will of the voters

and if he's restored to power, le likely never voluntarily relinquish it and four years from now, whether he does things that voters like or don't like, voters will not have the freedom to choose the rest of their future and under harris they will and that is fundamentally should be the bottom line decision for every voter going into the booth. and regardless of how it cost people in terms of their personal relationships, the key is, in the voting booth, it is private. you goodet to cast your vote for your conscience and for your country and i want to appreciate that before the cheney's took this move, you both did. so thank you for that. >> i hate compliments but i will thank you for saying what you just said. i think that -- i think that some of what trump ushered in was the death of shame and i -- i was so ashamed to see the party i was a part of stay nor

90 seconds after trump talked about migrants as rapists and murderers. so i was out. and i wonder, charlie sykes, what you think about all of the good feelings in the air that are so foreign. this thing called hope, is this thing that i haven't felted in a long time. and i wonder how you grapple with the possibility that harris represents this thing that ian is devoted to protecting, american democracy. >> well, i think, you know, that is the hope. because in the middle of the summer, i think we all experienced sort of that near-death experience of thinking oh, my gosh,p donald trump is going to be elect and we have to put up with four years or maybe more and what does that say about our constitutional order and america and who we are as a people. if this happens, and so suddenly

now there is the possibility of an alternative future that we're coming through this. and i'm reminded of the fact that this country has gone through some really wrenching, awful crisis before. i was just rewatching the movie lincoln where abraham lincoln at the end of the bloody civil war that cost 700,000 american lives talks about binding up the wounds of the country and realizing if america came back from that, that there is a resill -- resilience that we shouldn't forget about and write off because a demagogue comes to power or we're in an ugly moment. now having said all of this. i enjoy the vibes but we ought to realize what next 60 days is going to represent. because donald trump is going to try to crush that hope. he's going to try to crush that hope by portraying america as this dystopian land of gotham

city of carnage and his vision will be dark. le try to do everything possible to drag the rest of us into his world of insults and disinformation. and, of course, and one of the key moments will be the debate. and i think the question is, this will test our resilience of hope. will he be able to do this again? will he be able to convince america that they need to be afraid of one another? that we need to fear and dislike each other more than whatever it is that he has planned. and again, this is going to be a test that the entire country is going to have to go through. again. >> i need both of you to stick around. when we come back, there is a story that we touched on at top of the last hour. the republican nominee for vice president will be sharing a rally stage with tucker carlson later in month. tucker carlson is under

increasingly scrutiny for platforming a nazi apologist that said on his show that churchill was the villain and it wasn't hitler at all. we'll bring you that story next. plus liz cheney isn't just supporting kamala harris. now today she's endorsing congressman collin al red against cruz. and now later how he turned the department of justice and the fbi into his only political weapons the first time and what he wants to do it given a second term in office. the author the new book where tyranny begins will join us. we'll be right back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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two weeks from tomorrow, in the crucial battleground of pennsylvania, j.d. vance is set to appear with tucker carlson. that event is still full speed ahead three days after he platformed darrell cooper, talked to him at length. he's someone that carlson told his massive audience was best and most honest popular historian in the united states. well, here is what the best historian cooper told carlson this week about world war ii. >> i thought churchill was the chief villain of the second world war war. he didn't kill the most people. he didn't commit the most atrocities. but i believe and i -- i think when you get into it and tell the story right and don't leave anything out, you see that he was primarily responsible for

that war becoming what if did. becoming something other than an invasion of poland. >> excuse me? so that happened. not hitler, but churchill, from a quote historian. showing up on tucker carlson's show and calling winston churchill the chief villain of world war ii and not adolf hitler. and his words. and tucker carlson is still going to appear at the republican vice presidential nominee who he helps place on to donald trump's ticket, j.d. vance. in a statement his spokesperson said this, senator vance doesn't believe in guilt by association cancel culture but he doesn't share the views of the guest interviewed by tucker carlsons. there are no stronger supporters of our allies in israel or the jewish community in america than senator vance and president

trump. >> we're back with our guests. we can't make up territory here, charlie sykes? >> no, look, there have been holocaust deniers for decades but in the past there were -- there were guardrails. there were people like william f. buckley jr. who threw the berkshires out. the only reason that we are talking about tucker carlson is because he has donald trump's here. donald trump has embraced and empowered folks that in the past would have been regarded as crock pots as fringe lars and this is one of the extraordinary ways that i think he has degraded not just the republican party but the entire conservative movement. look, what tucker carlson, this is not the first time that he has done something like this. he's been pushing the replacement theory, all sorts of

bizarre conspiracy theories. but one would have thought that the final frontier would be whitewashing adolf hitler and that is what he did. he whitewashed adolf hitler. he platforms someone who talked about people that died in nazi concentration camps that happened because they weren't expecting it. and, again, a healthy political party would say, we don't want to associate with that. that is not what we are and what we want to do. but in maga world, you could never apologize. there is no backing off. and i think it speaks volumes that donald trump and j.d. vance continue to embrace tucker carlson as well as the kind of fringe figures that are on the russian payroll. but this would not be happening if it were not for donald trump. >> ian bass, what is the nexus, what is trump's interest in making hitler great again? why is that part of his movement or his coalition?

i don't even understand it. >> well, i think in part, we have to understand the incentives here for all of the actors involved. so let's first talk about the media incentives for someone like a tucker carlson or whatever the crackpot is that he had on his show. he live in an era where attention is the new oil. it is the most valuable and scare resource and with attention comes a degree of power. and so for actors like tucker carlson, the way that they gain attention in a crowded media eco-system on the right, is to be as extreme and as outrageous as possible because that gets all of us here to talk about it. that crackpot historian, has never been as nope or famous as he is today an that is the goal of people who spout these ridiculous and offensive positions which is to gain attention and with attention, as you noted, comes the ear of the

person who is the greatest carnival barker for attention of the modern era, donald trump. so that is on the media side and on the the political side, that incentive, if you look at vance's very brief political career, he talled trump the next -- the american hitler. but that wasn't going to get him elected senator of ohio in a republican primary. so he changed his tune and he ran as far to the extreme right as possible in order to win donald trump's endorsement and that senate race the and then in order to get picked as vice president, he once again had to audition to be as extreme and far right as possible in order to be selected as the vice presidential nominee. and voila, by running as far to most extreme outrageous place possible, someone who had a been in politics for less time than i feel like i've had luncheon my plate, is now the nominee to be

vice president of the country. and finally, i think, beyond just the incentives for all of them, and one more incentive i would note here, i think jonathan at the bulwark had a piece about how trump and vance are running a campaign to win with a minority of voters. they're not running a national campaign, because of the way our electoral college works, and you wouldn't see j.d. vance appearing on stage with tucker carlson if they were trying to win the national popular vote and a national campaign. they're running for an inside straight, it means electoral college states where bringing out some pretty extreme voters who don't typically vote is their path to victory and thereby entertaining people like carlson and that is the way to get there. and in terms of hitler and we've talked about this on this show before, we are really experiencing an era right now that is in many ways an

echo of the early 20th century, making extreme ideas very attractive to people who understandably feel anxious about the future. and one of the greatest purveyors of extreme ideas was adolf hitler and it is not surprising at a time like this he's being brought up for those playing for the extremes because they know that can be attractive in moments of rapid change like this one. >> thank you for making some sense of it. charlie sykes and ian bass, thank you so much for this conversation. thank you both. when we come back, we've been reporting the blockbuster news made today by liz cheney, news she continues to make. today she announced she's also endorsing collin alred for the senate seat in texas. he will be our guest after a short break. stay with us. after a short break. stay with us you get tons of benefits,

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if you were advising kamala harris going into this debate on i guess monday, monday or tuesday, tuesday, with donald trump, he's not a fun or easy guy to debate obviously. what -- how do you think she should proceed. >> every opportunity that donald trump gets to show the american people who he is, he pretty clearly and look his running mate is doing this, too.

you know, this is my diplomatic way ever saying it, they're misogynistic pigs. [ cheering and applause ] and i think, i think that will become clear. >> sometimes you hear from trump supporters that they want to just let trump be trump and i endorse that. let that guy go. because the more people see him and the more, you know, frankly, at the end of the day, i think that women around this country, like, we've had enough. we've had enough. >> so just a little bit of what you get when vice president -- i'm sorry, former congresswoman liz cheney and our former vice president dick cheney endorse you. today liz cheney announced a new endorsement, she announced her

support for collin alred running in texas. we played her endorsement at top of the broadcast. it was one of the loud rounds of applause. was what was your reaction? was it something you expected or sought. >> thank you, nicolle, thank you for having me on. listen, i'm honored to have liz's support. i'm honored because i respect her. and i respect her because i have seen that she's put her country, the constitution, over any other consideration. i saw it on january 6 when we were on the house floor together and we immediately came together and decided to have a response. i saw it in the aftermath of that, with everything that she went through. i've seen is over the years since then and she's somebody that i have a deep level of respect for. so it means a lot to me, but i

think it also shows that what we're doing here in texas and across country is building a coalition, a pro-democracy, a prou.s. constitution, a pro-future coalition, not dictated by party but that is by values and that is why it means so much to me. >> will you ask liz cheney to campaign for or with you in texas? >> well as she said, she's going to get to work. and we have plenty of things that we could do together and i think that her voice is an important one. and so i look forward -- for us to be able to do that together here in texas and i think that if she's an incredibly important voice that a lot of texans will listen to. but this is something that, as i said, it is an incredible honor. we're just at beginning of this and we'll make sure for next 60 days that we do what is next to get 30 million texans that care about them instead of ted cruz that just cares about himself. >> she called you a serious

person which was sort of unsaid, was that your opponent ted cruz is not a serious politician. what is state of your race against ted cruz and where are you making the most ground against him? >> yeah, well this is an incredibly close dais and we're building a coalition here in texas. i know a lot of folks who aren't have texas might not know how quickly things could change but you have some understanding of who we are here in texas. and folks are ready to turn the page. we have to make sure that as wee turning that page and getting folks to do that, that we understand that we could have an alternative, that we don't have a senator that we are embarrassed by but that could bring us together and wouldn't be a part that ted cruz has been a part of and bring us together around our shares values and that is where liz and i both

agree, which is that we now have to go back to some of the basics in our democracy, some of the things that we know tie us together. some of the things that we grew up with that we forget about that are ingrained against us and we have leaders that try to remind us of that. >> and in talking about all of the republicans who are show cased at vice president harris's convention, you spoke at the convention. it feels like she deserves a lot of credit for assembling a movement that is -- that is diverse, but that is also ideologically wide and it seems that your came in some ways is a reflection of that. is that a fair description of how you're running for the senate seat in texas? >> well that is right. and that is how i got elected to congress. i ran in a district that was a republican district. that had been represented by a republican for 2 years and we

flipped it not just by appealing to partisan instincts, and you mentioned that adam kinzinger had a prominent role there. adam is a friend of mine. he's a texan now and he moved to houston and i see us as part of the shared coalition of trying to bring serious leaders back to office that will make sure that we bring us together and we never have to go through something like january 6 ever again. that we never come that close to losing our democracy. that is a shared value that we could all agree on. and one that it wasn't just one person who is responsible for january 6 and folks out there should know that. this ted cruz was the architect in the senate of that attempt. he was the objector to the results in arizona and then what that mob came and i took off my suit jacket and was going to hole back the mob at a door while my colleagues escaped, he was hiding in the supply closet and texans understand that too and i think on november 5th, we're going in a different

election. >> thank you more -- for spending time with us. when can he come back, we will turn to the tracking the many times donald trump bend the fbi and the justice system in this country his direction and used them for his own political purposes the first time. we'll root ourselves in a brand-new book and talk about what he's capable of doing should he be given a second chance. our friend dader david rhodes, the author of the new book, "where tyranny begins" will be our guest. stay with us. begins" will be our guest. stay with us

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this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. wherever law ends, tyranny begins. that is a quote by john lock. it is inscribed in the walls of the justice department in washington and it is the imperative between david rhodes' new book, "where tyranny begins", how donald trump sought to turn doj and the fbi into his personal political weapons to help himself and his allies and go after his enemies. he degrades the top law enforcement agencies from the firing of jim comey to special council john durham's probe of the fbi trump russia investigation, to pressuring attorney general bill barr and other justice department officials into aiding his efforts to overturn the 2020

election. donald trump methodically sought to bend the doj and the fbi to his will. and as one former senior doj official tells rhodes, the ex president's goals were clear, i think he's intentionally trying to weaken public confident in the justice department and federal law enforcement in order to keep himself from going to jail. to join our conversation is nbc news senior executive editor david rhodes and author of the new book "where tyranny begins", thank you so much for being here. >> thank you, nicolle. >> it feels like we had the wrong frame around this. we viewed him as hapless, when in truth your book reports how much success he actually had at influencing doj. explain. >> the first part of the book covers the trump years and each

chapter is a different tactic that trump employed. one is to denigrate and discredit people and spread conspiracy theories and it is about a style of lawyering called lol, as in laugh out loud lawyering and using courts an the legal system to make claims and filings or lawsuit that somehow get a trump or conservative message across that gets a lot of media coverage, that owns the libs and most of all sort of pleases trump. the travel ban, the muslim travel ban was an example of that. it wasn't strong legally and it had to be unhold by the court but it is a style of using the court and legal system for political and public relations gain. >> i want to read from some of the book. you write trump's attacks on justice department on top officials and career civil

servants ant the idea that no one was above the law had taken a toll and what seemed like paranoid, trump has wiped away the norms to protect the department and the cost of holding him to account was devastatingly high. the book brings into focus that while some of the episodes obviously this different facts and circumstances, the firing of jim comey and at booze and firing of andy mccabe, the abuse and harassment which i think is ongoing of peter struck and lisa page. but to trump they were all the same. part of this effort you describe add delegitimatizing the most powerful people at doj who in his view threatened him. >> he was setting examples for other civil service justice in the fbi. his public firing sent a clear message to people who common

possible servants in washington. i want to emphasize, there are people who re sit and fight back in the book. it is not all hopeless. but it was a strategy. it was to make an example of andy mccabe, to show fbi and doj officials, this is what will happen to you if you get involved in one of these investigations of trump. that he'll make, he'll punish you. and i had a very hard time getting people to speak on the record, many people did speak to me, they talked about their frustration and concerns. but he is effectively made people think even if they're retired from the fbi, their career and their businesses will be damaged if they criticize him or investigate him openly. >> who fought back and survived? >> very few people. one person and i want to be fair here, i -- as an msnbc editor,

i'm believing that bill barr has believed in a strong presidency and he felt that the presidency was being weakened and he had a role but in the end he did the right thing in saying that the 2020 election was not stolen and standing up to trump which was a positive thing and there are low level officials who also questioned some of the things that trump was trying to do. the chief of staff to jody hunt also a career doj person named jody hunt who tried, he thought that trump would be changed by the presidency and what hunt was saw that trump was able to change the presidency instead. and create these sort of sweeping powers and wipe away these norms far faster than anyone expected. >> and just to be cheer, i mean jeff berman, who is at the sdny,

in terms of ordering prosecutions and interfering in michael cohen and anything that would touch donald trump. so you're speaking about the period after donald trump's electoral defeat? >> yes. at end, there is a pattern of people that rationalize working for trump, they downplay the importance of trump or the danger of trump and then in the end they all sort of end up ruined or discredited. so, barr, i'm talking about barr breaking with trump in december of 2020 and publicly saying that there was not any evidence of widespread fraud and that trump had lost the election. trump -- barr was attacked by conservatives, but recently barr has endorsed trump. he said that, you know, that it was a reversal but he said now that he will vote for trump. so it is a mixed -- it is a

mixed record. another group just quickly is the -- the ten or so senior officials that tried to resign when trump tried to make jeff clark attorney general. they made a mistake. they did not go public with the fact that trump tried to put clark in office. they kept that secret. and one of the them told me they didn't want to poke the bear. that they were afraid this they went public, trump would be even more irrational. that was a mistake. they should have made what happened day before january 6 public. >> it is a really important piece of reporting. thank you so much for spending time with us to talk about it. it is called where tyranny begins, a quick break for us. we'll be right back. break for us we'll be right back. n my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms

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a reminder to ow viewers, kamala harris and trump's debate will be hosted by abc news but you could watch it here on tuesday night. we'll be simulcasting the debate from beginning to end on msnbc. our coverage beginning at 7:00 p.m. eastern of the keep it here for the debate and we'll all be here for full analysis when it is over. another break for us. we'll be right back. my luke would be a very different luke. look up. where you going? luke's mom: there's an incredible urgency to get your child into services, because the longer you wait, these motor pathways are set in stone. i knew he needed help. he needed these services.

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faster and easier than ever. that's what i do. is that love island? thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we're grateful, "the beat" with ari melber starts