connie hoagland: i think he just still thought that i didn't think he did it. josh mankiewicz: i -- i sort of get the feeling that maybe larry thought that you were the kind of person who wouldn't have the strength to testify again him. connie hoagland: i think you're right. i think he just didn't know me as well as he thought he did. josh mankiewicz: boy, was he wrong. >> may be larry thought that you were the kind of person who would have the strength to testify against him. >> i think you are right. i think he just didn't know me as well as he thought he did. >> was he wrong? >> he was. he didn't know me at all. >> that is all for this edition of dateline. i am craig melvin. inc. you for watching. . busy week so let's get right

to. >> writing it. and candidate the names particularly. >> because of the danger donald trump poses not only am i not voting for donald trump but i will be voting for kamala harris. former congresswoman liz cheney becoming the latest high- profile republican to endorse kamala harris for president. she made e the comments yesterd during an appearance at duke university. the harris campaign welcomed cheney support calling her a patriot who loves this country and puts her democracy and our constitution first. >> oyou know, that's actually, willie, that's what's at issue

here. we are not talking really about ideology of the either of the candidates in large part because donald trump has no ideology and they are both racing to the center. the lines are getting blurred, but you know, somebody in the republican party who may attack liz iccheney say oh my gosh, oh so you are going to abandon your pro life position. like donald trump? you talking about like donald trump abandoning his in front of our eyes? not really. she is voting for democracy. she is voting the constitutional republic endures with mad sownian checks and balancess. and what about the other vote -- well, are oyou going to abandon that issue? like, donald trump who killed the toughest bill ever? i mean, the deficit. >> the list goes on. >> what about the deficit? i thought you were a small

government conservative. >> donald trump biggest debt and biggest federal budget when he was office ever. so, again, this is not about ideology because donald trump is not conservative, something i've been saying since 2015. he doesn't talk like a conservative. he abandoned conservatives on the issues that matter the most. so, at this point, are you for a personality cult? you want to be an in a personality cult or republic to endure. that's what it comes down to as far as republic as we have known it with madisonian democracy checks and balances. liz accheney chose democracy an shouldn't be a shock. >> that's the interesting thing. it's not shocking that she come out and said this is she said this. she could have said i am not

voting for donald add donald trump. what's shocking is yours and hers among conservatives, now, is a minority position. which is to say, most republicans most people who call themselves conservatives now are or were but just trump supporters now, they are going along for the ride with all the things you just laid out. all the contradictions that donald trump presents to conservatives. all the flip-flopping on core issues lock abortion, debt and deficit and immigration. all of those things. which she is saying that not only has donald trump flip- flopped on that but he represents something that is so counter not just to conservatism but the american way of life to democracy she has to stand in the door and make, i guess, the only surprise to me over the last whatever it's been since january 6th, when she officially really took the lead on that investigation along with many democrats, is that more republicans have not takenp the door that was presented on january 6th and said so's

bandoned us and left us and led us down this disastrous path. we have no choice but to oppose him but show and adam kizinger is in the minority. >> most conservative republicans are afraid to open the door. liz cheney was unafraid and you alluded to what she said when she said one of the reasons is she is voting for kamala harris and will vote for kamala harris is danger donald trump represents. the danger donald trump represents. and it's kind of shocking, of given his record and rhetoric and given everything he post on his crazy social media channel, truth social, whatever, it is so vulgar and opposite to what this country stands for. so opposite to what people look forward to in an electionp. election is about the future and donald trump is the past but represents a true danger to the fabric of the culture and society and institutions that represent our government. >> well, and you know, he talks

about we can talk about january 6th insurrection and he said and his lawyers argue because when he says something outrageous like he is going to be a dictator people say he is just joke something and he doubles down, and proves he is not joking. and those prpeople are left looking stupid as always. but, his lawyer in court argued that he can assassinate political rivals. assassinate political rivals with seal team 6 and still, and still not have the law arrest him. that's he immuned from that. talks about being a dictator from day one and terminating the constitution. i tried to undermine american democracy for years and then yesterday, or the day before suddenly he says wait a second, maybe i just lost my wister. on and on.

mika, you look and again, this is a party divide against itself. you have liz cheney, 95acu lifetime rating, and me, i had 95 lifetime rating higher than most everybody else. and adam kizinger who served the country proudly and david french. >> yeah. >> you have people who have been conservative their entire lives saying we can't go there because this is not any other election. this is about the future of this country, and how our government is run. we need a strong conservative republican party. and that is not donald trump or the party that he is leading. not even close. and a lot diof people, we have met republicans who over the summer spent time with them who voted for trump, and can't anymore, because their belief is a vote for kamala harris is

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joining us now democratic member of the foreign relations committee chris murphy of connecticut. good to have you with us. lots to talk about but let's start here. what is your reaction to what you read in the more than 30 pages at justice department indictment laying out chapter and verse how a state media organization, russia, russian government, funneled money to conservative influencers to spout propaganda in the u.s.? >> this is a stunning indictment, and it really shows

potentially how deeply integrated russia is with the maga media environment. this company that is described in tennessee is a pretty well- known maga media company. it has on its payroll many of the top pro-trump voices in this country. and they were knowingly conspiring with russia. using millions of dollars to put content online and to pay a number of pro-trump commentators that have been pushing and anti-harris and pro- russia narrative for months. so unfortunately, this may be the tip of the iceberg. it is possible that there are many other mainstream conservative websites that are in the pocket of the russian government, and i am glad that the justice department is on top of this. and i am glad the notice is out to any other maga media companies that may be taking russian money that this is not

going to be permitted and you will be held accountable if you are doing business with vladimir putten. >> we want to talk about the shooting in georgia that left four people dead and 14-year- old suspect in police custody. before we discuss it, nbc news correspondent has the latest. >> reporter: horror in winder, georgia after officials say a suspected shooter opened fire in apalachee high school. >> a 14 year old student here at the high school, again, he has been taken into custody. he will be charged with murder and he will be tried as an adult. >> reporter: this video capturing terrifying moments after gunfire rang out. police say deputies and emergency medical personnel rushed to the high school at about 10:23 a.m. in response to an active shooting. the school put on lock down.

>> it was just like a loud boom. >> reporter: authorities say the gunfire left four dead, two teachers and two students and nine injured. >> our school resource officer engaged him and shooter quickly realized that if he did not give up, it would end with an ois, officer-involved shooting. he gave up, got on the ground and the deputy took him into custody. >> reporter: golf coach david phoenix was shot twice and is alive according to his daughter who posted on facebook that he is in stable condition. >> my heart hurts for the kids. my heart hurts for our community but i want to make it clear that hate will not prevail in this county. love will prevail over what happened today. >> reporter: stew enters returned back to school in august, sophomores describing the terrifying moments. >> i didn't know what was going to happen because you can hear the gunfire right down the hall. so, i was shaking. just scared. >> i thought i was going to

die. >> reporter: a student said she was shaken up and scared. how does it feel it happened at your high school? >> i am shocked. i am shocked something hike this could happen here. >> reporter: panicked parents rushed to the school, later reuniting with their children at the football field. >> my daughter called me at work screaming that there was a shooter at apalachee. >> reporter: president biden briefed today writing jill and i are mourning the deaths of those whose lives were cut short due to more senseless gun violence. former president trump posting these cherished children were taken from us far too soon by a sick and deranged monster. at a rally in new hampshire, vice president harris remarking. >> it's senseless. it is -- we have got to stop it. and we have to end this epidemic of gun violence in our country once and for all. >> senator, i wish, i really wish that we were on here to continue to talk about the

russian propaganda scheme, but we are not. we are here to talk about an american epidemic and that epidemic going on for decades in this country. you represent a state and citizens suffered a tragic loss that endures each and every day. the frustration level that you must be dealing with in terms of trying to get something done, finally, how do you do it? how do you deal with the frustration level in a country in a government where the say majority rules is a joke? majority rules doesn't happen? >> yeah, i listened to that clip, and hear this wonderful sentiment that love is going to prevail. hate will not prevail. well, that's not true if you look your kid in the eye and tell them you are going to do nothing about the fact that 14- year-olds, 18-year-old, 20 year olds can get their hands on a

weapon ar-15 that's literally designed to assassinate as many people as quickly as possible. it's not a coincidence all the mass shooters turned to the same weapon. they pick that weapon up because that's weapon is literally designed for mass slaughter. you don't need that weapon to hunt. you don't need it to protect your home. you need that weapon if you want to commit mass murder. and part of the reason that these shootings continue to happen part of the reason she is shootings continue to be lethal is because states like georgia have made a decision to put the profits of the gun industry ahead of the health and safety of our kids. that is not love. my kid yesterday called me and told me that coincidentally his school went into lock down. public high school went into lock down yesterday because of a bomb threat. i asked him how all this makes him feel watching the scenes in georgia, living through another lock down, and he kind of shrugged off it and said we are used to it. we are used to the idea when we

go to school every day, there's a chance we may not come back. that kind of baked in trama is part of what explains why our kids are having so much trouble today. it's not just social media. it's the constant threat of violence that we choose to inject into their lives. so we got a choice this elect. kamala harris told you, she is going to make it a priority and work to ban these ar-15s and she is going to work to make sure everybody goes through a background check before they buy a gun. donald trump went up on stage and told you that not only is he going to do nothing, he is going to repeal the progress we made. shootings are down this year compared to last year. it doesn't feel that way it's true because we passed a law with kamala harris' support to make it harder for bad people to get their hands on guns. donald trump says he will go backwards to the days where we had even fewer protections for our kids. so it's choice. you want to stop the mass shootings, you got kamala harris who will make it a priority and donald trump who says he is going to put the profits of the gun industry

first. that's an election issue a lot of parents will pay attention to this november. >> senator, good morning, good to see you. you are right. we talked earlier. i have two teens as well. the extent to which this doesn't shock them is the most shocking part they have grown up in the environment where it's a possibility. we always hear in the shootings and in a case like this a, young kid not old number to buy a gun by law defeatism which is what are you going to do? his dads had gun many owned legally. the kid got access a troubled young man went to school and shot. we shouldn't punish all gun owners but a a kid who was troubled found his dad's gun. what do you say who those kind of arguments? >> so i think it's difficult to make policy based on one particular shooting. in this case, it looks like the young man got his hands on his parents' gun but there are plenty of other mass shootings where a young man walks into a gun store, and walked out with

a weapon. there are plenty of instances that the owner of the firearm pulled the trigger. and we could have denied that individual the gun or we could have had a redflag law that allowed someone to take it away. here is a policy in connecticut we have a safe storage law. we require parents with young kids in the house to lock up the weapons and there's a penalty if you don't. georgia doesn't have that law. so it is not as if there are not. ventions to make a difference. i think it's a mistake to make policy based op one mass shooting. but whether it be background checks, whether strong red flag laws banning weapons requiring parents to lock up weapons, its not as if we have a shortage of policies. it's not as if we don't know what to do. we know what to do. its states like georgia run by republicans and run by donald trump supporting republicans choose to do nothing because they care about the gun

industry more than they care about the health of our kids. and that's a choice for voters. you want to continue to have the gun industry in charge of your state and continue to have the shootings happen, go continue to elect people that advertise to you they will do nothing. or choose to support people who go out there and run for election tell you they are going to put our kids safety first. coming up, a new book dives into how donald trump tried to use the justice department to help himself and punish his enemies. the book's author two-time pulitzer prize winner david rode joins with us the investigation into the assault on democratic norms under the former president. on democratic former president.

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in where tyranny begins the justice department fb it and author david rohde shows how president trump tried to use both to punish his enemies and national security editor david rohde jones us. good morning pop congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> this really puts meat on the bones and does deep reporting on idea that donald trump sort of acted the way a mob boss would act to, punish enemies, use the agencies he had to do that, and to help himself. and you get into the specifics about how he did that. >> yeah the first half of the book is on trump and it's a clear pattern, a strategy where he would, you know, fire people who threatened him, spread conspiracy theories, and it worked. i think to a greater extent than many of us realized. and i just focus on this because this is still an issue today. you may have mentioned earlier in the show, but donald trump had new book come out today, a picture book with him and world leaders one of the pictures is

mark zuckerberg and the caption trump author him selves he claims that zuckerberg tried to swing the 2020 election against trump. that's false. there's no evidence of that, but trump stated again and published this morning that if zuckerberg interferes in the 2024 election he will spend the rest of his life in jail. >> yes. >> so that's the concern here is what he would do in the next term, would he go farther than he did in the first term. >> you get into detail about how donald trump sought to divide the doj and the fbi, and that the fear was real. inside the agencies they didn't want to cross publically or publicly the man who could cost them their jobs. how did he go about that haz president. >> publicly, humiliating them and publically threatening this and privately firing people when he fired the former deb at this director and got rid of the pension that sent a clear message to people in washington who don't make that much money, you know, and he called them a

deep state and i want to say i look at this in previous book and again in this book, and there is no evidence of an organized secret of fbi and doj official trying to block trump or trying to force him out of his office. and the book begins with it's a meeting a few weeks before the search of mar-a-lago, and the hyperpartisanship suspicion and conspiracy theories seeped into the fb. and doj team that was investigating mar-a-lago and classified documents there. and there was deadlock over whether to investigate whether to carry out a search opinion one of the fbi officials said it will play into the deep stake conspiracy and doj said we tried to get the documents and he defied the subpoena and there was a bitter acrimony between the two groups and that's alarming. normally, you know, the people work together well, but you had the kind of suspicion and hyperpartisanship that, you

know, is so life in the politics now, slowing down and delaying an investigation. >> was the fbi hesitant because they feared donald trump or because they sided with him politically? >> no, it was i want to be fair to the people involved here. they feared the impact on the fbi itself. the main person who was concerned about this, head of the washington field office said we are playing into trump's mo if we go in and search mar-a-lago. and that person wanted to wait a little longer and in the end the deputy head of the fbi said there is probable cause carry out the serve. let me be clear, all the people, even the doj prosecutors saw this as a lose- lose situation. and they feel inform they don't act aggressively they are criticize by democrats and if they act aggressively they are criticized by republicans and the fear is they won't want to go into public service. >> beyond that arguments, you

write how federal law enforcement throughout the department of justice to the attorney general seems inadequate and they are not up to the need to prosecute, the task of prosecuting a former president for political reasons. >> our system is not built for this. i mean, he think one of the, and i want -- and that's nbc news national security editor and national supporter i with a. to be nonpartisan. liberals assume indicting trump would be a political silver bullet and the amazing thing that he would be put on trial and convicted and discredited. it turns out it is incredibly difficult to prosecute a former president of the united states. tremendous assets, tree machinedous political backing and it helped trump politically in terms of helping him get the nomination as a republican. so doj officials told me that, you know, it's clumsy process that resolving our political differences through a trial, through a criminal indictment, doesn't work and jamie raskin fiery democrat said to me one

interview we have to win this politically. and it's a political struggle and that's what we see play out and that's why this is going to be such a competitive and important race this fall. >> so david, in one of the reviews, someone rightly explaining your title saying you are not some resistance warrior that actually is a very important historical basis to your title. can you explain that? >> sure it's quote from john lock 15 years ago, and the quote is where law ends tyranny begins and that's reference to the use by different tore tearian leaders with are they start ceasing power is use the courts and law enforcement agencies to punish their enemies and it there political rivals and protect friends. i found the trump did try to do that in the first term and i think that would continue in a second term. again, there are many public servants who stood up to trump and paid heavy price for that. people thought that many of the career folks in the doj and fbi

the presidency would change trump. and instead donald trump changed the presidency. >> well, and, of course, donald trump promised. he has said it out loud that if elected he will decide who goes to jail and who is pardoned and who is let out of jail. and will aggressively use it. and i want -- just to put in perspective, when we -- you were talking about the deep state the fbi, donald trump being hostile towards the fbi, again, the problem with what donald trump what he's done it's been so politicized so whatever is good for him is good for the justice department and good for america in his eyes, bad for him, bad for the justice department, and bad for america. you go back, obviously, and if you go into this in the book going back to 2016 and donald trump is running around the campaign trail and praising the

fbi. and he's praising comey because they were attacking hillary clinton. new york office threw out the 2016 campaign. books, written on the campaign said new york office had a decided pro trump and anti- hillary tilt. and then of course, the comey letter ten days before the election historians believe that letter in and of itself swung the election. so, this agency, this fbi agency that trump supposedly hates so much right now, he actually loved it and praised it when it was going after his political opponent right? >> that's true. and what i found is that the problem here is that there's again, so much hyperpartisanship we need nonpartisan public service in the law enforcement agencies and fbi and doj. we need nonpartisan election clerks counting the vote nonpartisan judges certifying and deciding cases and not

partisan journalists. we need facts we can agree on. if we don't have that, it becomes a threat for our democracy. and that's why this fall had been an amazing test for american democracy. >> since you started reporting and writing book the supreme court came through with the immunity ruling which impacts everything you write about in this book. so if donald trump is reelected, how will that change the dynamic? >> it dramatically changes it former justice department official and major characters were surprised by the ruling current justice department rulings were surprised as well. it never existed before american history but supreme court says conversations between the president and the attorney general are absolutely immune from criminal prosecution. so, the president, donald trump, can call his attorney general and say i want you to investigate mark zuckerberg and prosecute him, he can probably start that process and he could, you know, possibly even jail mark zuckerberg who would appeal to the supreme court, and they would have to decide.

it's an extraordinary thing, though, and it's been a check on presidents since nixon you don't use the justice department to attack political enemies. if you do you will pay a political price and the supreme court won't let you get away with it. >> and he puts in a lackey as attorney general and get whatever he wants. >> one of the plans is put in acting attorney general and get around senate confirmation. >> incredible new details in this brand new book called where tyranny begins, justice department, fbi and war on democracy is on sale now. nbc news national security editor david rohde congrats on the book good to see you. still ahead, son of the late senator john mccain speaks out and endorses vice president harris and slams donald trump for his controversial visit to arlington national cemetery. we are going to get to that after this short break. that after this short break. but not as you know it. for thighs... folds... pits... and bits. seventy-two-hour odor control... full of skin-loving ingredients.

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. . the youngest son of the late senator john mccain is endorsing vice president kamala harris for president. jimmy mccain says the incident last week involving donald trump's campaign staff at arlington national cemetery convinced him to switch affiliation from an independent to a democrat. and support harris this fall. mccain, who recently returned from deployment at a military

base in jordan, said trump's campaign violated a sacred place by taking photos and video in an area where they are normally prohibited. >> arlington cemetery is sacred to all people who have all people members of the military and all people who served in the uniform. it's sacred area. there's three generations of mccains buried there. and it's a violation because the rules is set in place the people who are buried there don't have an opinion. the point of arlington cemetery is to go and show respect for the men and women who have given their life to the country. when you make it political, you take away the respect of the people who are there. >> peter baker that's jimmy mccain john mccain's son. we had jeffrey goldberg talking about his new book which points to that mccain moment in july of 2015 as the canary in the coal mine a red flag he criticized heroism and service of john mccain most thought

that's it especially inside a republican primary and he went onto become the nominee and the president of the united states. so, this is a little bit of a not surprising moment perhaps given the way donald trump talked about john mccain. and his family. but, notable nonetheless because jimmy mccain talks about the offense that he saw as a military family in not just what he did at arlington last week or the team did at last weeks, but over the last decade or so. >> yeah, there's a disconnect between former president trump and the culture of military service. right, he told john kelly his second chief of staff when they visited john kelly's son's grave he didn't understand what was in it. for soldiers who went into combat and he said to kelly according to kelly anyway, those who went to war were suckers and losers. he denied that, but president trump didn't go to war. he had bone spurs diagnosed in

the feet by a podiatrist doing a favor for his father to get out of service in vietnam, and so, i think for a lot of military people, there's something, you know, about former president trump that doesn't understand the values and virtues that military people feel. remember, he told general kelly at one point while he was president he says you know, you fing generals why are you not like the german generals in world war ii. you mean hitler's generals. yes they were loyal he said. kelly reminded they tried to kill hitler several times. so, you know, his idea of the military is they are political and answer to him. they are to be loyaler is vents of him that's what mark mille the joint chief chairman appointed himself resisted in the final months of the administration. he wrote a secret resignation letter and he was so upset at the way he saw trump politicizing the military he was going to step down.

put the leter in a drawer and decided to stay and fight. he says to keep trump from abusing the power of the military for political purpose in those last days in office. you know, of course, mike flynn shows up in the white house with the plan that essentially would declare marshal law over the country in order to reinstate or keep president trump in power. so, his relationship with the military is fascinating and important one. he think there's, i yo know, obviously he is popular with people in the military if you do the rallies you will see a lot of veterans there. he absolutely does speak to them in a lot of ways, but a lot of people who have the feeling or culture of the place, people like jimmy mccain and john mccain before he passed and john kelly, really resent trump's attitude towards the military. >> and jimmy mccain you see a little bit of john mccain's legacy living on. if you look at his political life, he often made decisions that were hard. and. >> yeah. >> and went against the grain

but they were the right thing. the patriotic thing to do. >> country first. >> there you go and jimmy mccain. up next, a federal judge has denied former president trump second attempt to move his new york hush money case to federal court. our colleague will join us to talk about what happens next. talk about what happens next. a, i'm also an expert in looking good. like when you wear florence by mills frames created by millie bobby brown, only at america's best. talk about a big deal. get two pairs of florence by mills frames for $119.95, exclusively at america's best. remember when they said you've got your whole life ahead of you? at unitedhealthcare, we say you still do. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ it's nice to know you're free to focus on what matters, with reliable medicare coverage

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federal judge has denied former president donald trump's second attempt to move his new york hush money case to federal court. trump argued the state judge presiding over the criminal case juan merchan is biased begins him and united states supreme court immunity ruling in july offers a valid federal defense for the hush money case. that's the argument from trump's team. u.s. district judge rejected both arguments. trump's attorneys filed a notice of appeal last night. joining us msnbc chief legal

correspondent and host of msnbc the beat, ari good morning. the first thing we learned when you sat down is you now officially with all due respect to the sunday today mug, top selling item on nbc store v the coolest piece of merch which is the official the beat lighter. >> wow, thank you. >> genius. inspired. >> wait a minute. >> yeah. >> joe and mika i will hand you some next time i see you in person. you are bringing it on air. it was just off air. >> i didn't know it was off air. sorry i didn't know it was off air. i didn't ask what you are doing with the lighter, so we are good. >> yeah. that's what i want to know. >> it's very interesting. >> seriously, what are you asking people to do here? >>i don't know, but you know. >> encore is a concert. >> this was a -- for some reason they allowed this when the nba -- the mean the nbc people, willie, remember when you first got on the air, and somebody in your staff wanted

way too early bomb pipe nbc. >> bomb pipe? >> they said no we are not going to do that. >> right. >> we are not going to encourage that. >> right. >> and yet, here we are all these years later and. >> different era. >> willie, remember what happened when i tried to burn the script. >> i was thinking about that. >> oh, throw back. >> is the bong pipe combining a bong and a pipe? we can get into weeds on that later. >> these are great. >> hash pipe, bong. >> it's like a jar. >> these are made for candles. i know. >> candles. >> yeah i know standards. >> scented candla. >> the program mentioned candles. >> and any kind of incense. >> any of that product. that's all my fault. i apologize. should we get back to the news. >> yes. >> people wonder what's morning joe like? this is what it is like. >> off air is on air you should know that by now. let's talk about the attempt anyway by donald trump's team to get this moved out of new

york to federal court, rejected pretty resoundingly here. was there any case to be made this should be moved? >> not a strong case, although in fairness when you have a new supreme court decision, you can always make your filings because we talk about precedent. immunity decision providing a never before idea that certain official acts could not be prosecuted even after you leave office is a new ruling. everybody that you had trump folks lost and you don't need legal training to understand the pitch. they were arguing that if you paid off someone like say stormy daniels, through your lawyer who is later convicted for it, maybe somehow that was official act of the president. whatever official acts are, it ain't that. >> so, let's talk about his -- he is trying to get the e-jean carroll settlement toss tossed out. is there any merit this? >> no. both of these convictions and

one is i want to stress civil, ants other in the new york case on the money payments to daniels through cohen was criminal. but both these findings were for underlying conduct as the lawyers say, before donald trump became president. >> okay. >> it's interesting. >> mika. >> how much is it costing to constantly create the delays? i mean, in attorneys fees or whatever else? >> well, donald trump spent millions of dollars and the delay strategy has been core thin. we have been normalized to so many things, but it is not normal to have someone running for president who is both a convict in one state, and still awaits federal trial at least in the case in d.c. even if it was slightly narrowed by the supreme court. and they have spent millions and he raised money and taken money from his donors which is legal, to fund all of this, but the main strategy is not been as we all know to win the cases

out right. it has been to delay, you know confuse, and then he hopes if he wins the presidency many of the cases the federal ones, would likely be lawfully dropped. >> so, ari, since the beat is not only a place where cigarette lighters are passed off as merch. >> you start a campfire? >> it's a place where the law means politics. >> sure. >> and it's the one thing that we have learned, donald trump alooted to it and he is right. when he is in court the poll numbers go up. and i find it curious if you are judge merchan the last thing you want to do is help donald trump in anyway. i would guess. you don't want to help somebody that is -- that's committed a crime. you don't want to do something that somehow is going to help

him down the road wipe the slate clean. so, obviously, he's got to stay focused on the law. and not politics, but i just wonder, i mean, it all goes together. how does the judge respond to this? what's the possibility of a delay until after the election? what's the possibility that maybe he gives him a lighter sentence because he doesn't want donald trump to play martyr. what are your thoughts, what are your guests thoughts been on the issue. >> it's great question will he give him lighter sentence unlike the lighter i gave willie. >> we were doing the weave. >> that's the weave. yes. exactly. >> we feel so square now. we are just. >> you know, joe, i will give you the honest answer is something you know well about from all your extensive experience. you can learn the law, have a law degrees in congrow and

dealing with laws constantly and you know there's reality in politics outside of the courtroom. everybody gets that. he think the answer is, if you were doing this strictly legally by the book and literally saying it doesn't matter the person is a candidate, then you would go ahead perhaps with the sentencing on time. i think that is increasingly unlikely. i don't make predictioning but the combination of the supreme court case that gives you a reason to say we need more time for filings et cetera, and even if it doesn't dismiss it as i mentioned, doesn't dismiss the conviction but you might say there's more time needed, and the proximity to election means that i don't think it's out of bounds that you could see this further delayed the new york sentencing. and i remind people in the cases it often majority of the cases don't necessarily get jail time anyway. and so, yes, merchan this judge in new york might look at the equities as the lawyers say and go, do you really need to be seen as jumping into this and

timing this. >> right. >> weeks out from the general election. >> don't go anywhere, we have a second hour of morning joe weekend right after the break. weekend right after the break. a! the market's closed. futures don't sleep in the after hours, bro. dad, is mommy a “finance bro?” she switched careers to make money for your weddings. ooh! penny stocks are blowing up. sweetie, grab your piggy bank, we're going all in. let me ask you. for your wedding, do you want a gazebo and a river? uh, i don't... what's a gazebo? something that your mother always wanted and never got. or...you could give these different investment options a shot. the right money moves aren't as aggressive as you think. i'm keeping the vest. it's book club in the wayborhood, y'all. eddie this table. i got this at wayfair after the last book club. every book club should have this much shopping. what did everyone think of the chapter "the right area rug for every budget"? i'll say it, the section on washable rugs was thrilling. thoughts, richard? the part about the floral rugs really spoke to me. [ sigh ] i want to know who's going to play the rug in the movie? why is nobody discussing the plot twist?

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welcome back two morning joe weekend on the saturday morning. let's jump in with a few more

of this week's top stories read >> if you win in november, can you commit to prioritizing legislation to make childcare affordable? if so, what specific piece of legislation will you advance? >> i would do that. we are sitting here, we had senator marco rubio and my daughter ivanka was impactful on that issue, it is an important issue. when you talk about the kind of numbers that i am talking about, that, childcare is childcare come it is something we have to have it, in this country you have to have it. to talk about those numbers compared to the kind of numbers i'm talking about by taxing foreign nations at levels that they are not used to, but they will get used to it very quickly. it will not stop them from doing business with us, but they will have a substantial tax when they sent product into our country. those numbers are so much bigger than any numbers we are

talking about, including childcare. i look forward to having no deficits within a fairly short period of time. a couple points on the reductions i told you about on waste and fraud and all of the other things going on in our country, i have to stay with childcare. those numbers are small relative to the kind of economic numbers that i am talking about, including growth . growth is also headed up by what the plan is that i just told you about. we will be taking in trillions of dollars. as much as childcare is talked about as being expensive, it is , relatively speaking, not expensive compared to the kind of numbers that we are taking. we will make this into an incredible country that i can afford to take care of these people, then we will worry about the rest of the world. let's help other people, but we will take care of our country first. this is about america first. this is about make america great again. we have to do it. right now we are failing. thank

you. very good question. >> thus, ends the six grade book report presentation, little donnie obviously did not read his -- mika, that took me back, i must admit, my freshman year of college i was supposed to read a book and i went in and dr. mind asked me what the book was about it was something about the habsburgs, i don't know. it did not end well. he goes, what did you think? i said not a good book but i would not recommend it. then he said can you hold it up for you and i held it up and he said that is a penguin book. >> i know you are joking but what the is he saying ? is he okay? >> he sounded just like he was doing a book report in middle school and had not read the book

. he has no idea what he is talking about. he is rambling incoherently. by the way, i have got to say, it is a pet peeve, the man who promised to pay down the debt and balance the budget in 2016 race that more than any president in the history of this republic. now he is going, because of my high tariffs, because of my high taxes on working-class americans and high taxes on middle-class americans, we are going to balance the budget quickly and make so much money i don't have to talk about childcare. >> that's the one where you go, you know what, i did not read the book, may i present on monday, can i have the weekend? this is embarrassing. one of the core arguments about kamala harris that you hear on certain cable news channels and websites is she's in the middle of a word salad. do you ever watch donald trump

you may want to give up on that argument. you ever watch his rallies? did you watch them yesterday? he has no clue what he's talking about and then brought it in for landing. by the way, tariffs, which is apparently the foundation how he will pay for everything, including childcare, our tax on consumers on this country, conservative economist say that to, they hate the idea he is talking about growing the economy, we have to have growth. two days ago ole miss asked that if donald trump will become president the economy will not grow if kamala harris does it will grow. that is goldman sachs, that is not me, that is not us. those noted socialist over at goldman sachs say the economy would be stronger under kamala harris. he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to policy and at one point we saw online, conservatives and some republicans rolling their eyes and saying what is he talking about? if he pushed a little

bit on policy you find out he is a inch deep. >> he just does not know. gene robinson said, this really said, trump talks about word salad as it pertains to kamala harris. there is the comparison. donald trump, not only that answer but in most rallies he is three feet deep in lettuce and ranch dressing. he is in the middle of a word salad that he cannot get out of. to a more important point, he has never under -- let's go through it. he has never understood american history, he has never understood the constitution, he has never understood the founding documents, he has never understood policy, and he has never apologized for not understanding policy. that is one of the reasons people say i support donald trump, but i don't like him as a man at all, he's a terrible human being but i like his policies. really? there were very few policies,

it is just year, 99% gesture and 1% policy. >> absolutely. joe, war and peace about leo tolstoy is about war and about peace. piece is better than war, but war is more exciting, it was absurd. you listen to that and he clearly has no idea what he is talking about. this idea about tariffs that he has, which is wrong, 100%, or is donald trump would say, 110% of economists will tell you that he is totally wrong about tariffs. it is not a tax on foreign companies, it is a tax on american consumers, it is a regressive tax, it is a horrible tax that affects low income and working-class americans more than it does

affluent americans. if this was the economic club of new york, how did those people who were listening to him not just gag or laugh? how did they keep a straight face listening to that ridiculous nonsense? i have no idea it >> i was wondering the same thing when he kept looking back at the woman who asked the question but i wanted to zoom in on her face and see what she was thinking. if i was a mother of young children i would not be reassured by the policy. maybe jd vance, maybe having grandparents and aunts and uncles, as if they don't have anything else to do that since it is close it is to a child care policy. one reason you keep hearing from business people who say i don't like donald trump, i don't like his character, but, there are policy issues. on the childcare front there are not many issues, many do not like the tariffs they know

this is a tax on the american consumer. is this just the idea that donald trump proposed to cut corporate tax rates and people in the community and on wall street are prepared to hold their noses at everything else because of that 15% corporate tax rate. >> i think it is that. i think it is also donald trump's position on regulation. donald trump has essentially told the business class, if i become president, i am going to do whatever you want. i will give you whatever subsidies you want. i will eliminate regulations that you find to be pesky. i will not raise taxes. basically this is very transactional from their point of view, this is the bargain. the question is whether or not at some point they are sitting in that room and you are watching that bizarre word salad , whether it occurs to them

that this man is not good for the nation, this man is not good for economic stability, what we most want is a stable economy that we can predict, we do not want an international trade war. many of them, it is simply, this guy will do what i want. by the way, elon musk is out of there saying, donald trump is going to put me in charge of all kinds of things involving government, government regulation, what could possibly go wrong there? if you think the incoherence of the word salad is troubling, wait until you see the kind of people that donald trump brings in to a second administration, that will be something. >> we will be right back with much more morning joe.

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faster and easier than ever. that's what i do. is that love island? authorities have arrested the father of the 14-year-old

suspect. colin gray was taken into custody yesterday. he faces charges of second- degree murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children. police did not offer many details other than to say that grays charges are directly connected to the actions of his son and allowing him to possess a weapon. two law enforcement sources tell nbcnews that gray bought him son aar 15 rifle as a christmas gift last year. they do not know when it was given to him, but around the holidays. sources say it was after police interviewed the teenager last year about online threats. the team denied making those threats and arrest was made. grays son was accused of shooting and killing four people at apalachee high school wednesday. he is said to appear in court later this morning. two law-enforcement officials say they discovered evidence of the suspects interest in mass

shootings, particularly the 2018 attack on the high school in parkland florida. mika, we sat here yesterday wondering how a 14-year-old could get his hands on the guns the father said previously when the fbi visited the family about these threats that he had hunting weapons in the home and they were locked up and his son does not have access. after the threats were made, allegedly, he bought his son, 13 or 14 years old at christmas time a ar 15 style rifle for christmas last year. >> it is beyond shocking. we are starting to see this, obviously, in this case, when i say we are starting to see, they are arresting the parents. it is about time you have a 14- year-old child who obviously has great mental challenges.

the cops are calling him evil. his aunts and other relatives say this was a boy who was let down by his parents from the very beginning. somehow, the father buys this boy a ar style weapon, after he tells police he is going to keep guns out of his possession because of the threats that they have been warned of. it is very clear. it is very clear he should go to jail. >> the timetable of this and the fact that we know police visited the homes and spoke to the father and spoke to the boy and then the father gave the sun access to this ar 15, and presumably to other weapons of the house, although he said he did not have unsupervised access to them, it makes it

very clear -- maybe this is the direction america is going to go to try to cut down on the number of children that society seems to be happy with having killed in schools. wow, there is a certain amount of fatalism trying to do anything else at the moment you hear it again and again from members of congress, numbers of the republican party and members of the lobby groups who want to keep fire hands arms in the hands of people pray for a country that is so committed to trying to break barriers and introduce new technology and do the impossible, when it comes to this particular issue there is a, we wish we could, but that's life. that is the latest line, it is a fact of life. this is the only way the courts are going to manage to get around an extraordinary political apathy when it comes to gun shootings. >> it is a fear. it is fear

from republicans. if anyone believes that gun safety laws or gun-control has always just been practiced, or fought by the right, in the 60s it was fought by the left, these things shift back and forth and the republicans need to shift back towards a same, irrational , gun policy position. if they did, charlie sykes, they would not lose a lot of republican voters. an overwhelming majority of republicans support universal background checks. a over mom overwhelming number of republican support red flag laws, overwhelming number of republican support raising the age to 21 for people going in buying ar 15 style weapons. a overwhelming majority of americans, i'm sure, would support enhanced background checks, more complete

background checks for people let's say, under the age of 30 that are going out to buy ar 15's. we look, there is a line. a line that goes straight through so many of these shootings, one after another after another. a disturbed young man, usually a disturbed young white man buys a ar 15 and he goes and he shoots up schools, our movie theaters, our baptist churches in texas, you can go down the list, sometimes it is older disturbed people who slaughter those attending a country festival, music festival in vegas. again, enough is enough. i go to you because i know you grew up around hunters in wisconsin.

i grew up around hunters in mississippi, alabama, georgia, northwest florida, they want this sort of gun safety law and they are conservative republicans. >> this is american carnage. donald trump is running on make america safe again but if you are in american parent, this is your fear, this is the great american nightmare. the point we're making is incredibly important. i think there is a real disconnect between what republican politicians think they have to do because they are afraid of the nra, and what actual gun owners feel. you are absolutely right, gun safety is not a left-wing idea, it is not a partisan issue. people want, especially hunters, they understand how essential it is to treat guns in a safe and responsible manner. what this will take at some point is

for republicans to stand up, turn around to the gun lobby and say, i am in favor of second amendment rights, but we are not going this way. we are going to go through some of the policies that you mentioned. we are not going to turn a blind eye. we are not going to regard this shooting of children at school as a fact of life, as jd vance said yesterday. i have to say, one of the incidents that broke me on all of this was the massacre of the children at sandy hook. after that, if that was not enough to sober up the country, if that was not enough to turn it around, what will it take? i think this is a hanging nightmare. how long are we going to put up with this? what will happen? in this particular case, giving this deeply disturbed child a ar 15 as a christmas present? i have

this image in my mind of a republican congress imposing around the christmas tree with his family and they are all holding weapons of guns and semi automatic weapons, weapons of war. this sort of fetish of the guns. at some point, that has to stop. we need to have a stigma, the celebration of this. remember when the congressmen were wearing ar 15 pins on the floor of congress? what sick is that? >> coming up, former defense agency director chris crabs ways and on the doj indictment of the russian backed media network rt . . (♪♪) evan, my guy! you're helping them with savings, right? (♪♪) i wish i had someone like evan when i started. somebody just got their first debit card!

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indictments charging two employees of the russia backed media network rt, and connection to what the biden administration says are russia state backed efforts to manipulate u.s. public opinion ahead of this fall's election. the charged are to seven lamenting a multimillion dollar scheme to hire a tennessee based company to publish and disseminate pro-russia content. that company then contracted u.s.-based social media influencers to share content on their platforms. let's bring in former director of the cyber security and infrastructure security agency, chris crabs, he is the chief intelligence and public policy officer at the cyber security company sentinel one. good to have you on. >> chris, thank you for being with us. i want to circle back to the last segment where we were talking about republicans that are concerned about donald

trump winning. part of that story talked about republicans who are traditional foreign policy, pro-nato, pro- ukraine republicans who believe you should push back against autocrats, you should push back against communist, all of the things we, republicans, used to believe. it never really made sense to me when you started having these republicans coming out and literally lifting pro- putin propaganda and putting it on their websites or putting it on cable news. i guess, i should not be surprised, but it is still jarring to see these headlines, when we knew something was going on. i am curious of your thoughts. >> the charging document itself is a fascinating read. it is this almost tom clancy

-like story of foreign security services and foreign interest manipulating the u.s. political discourse. it really all boils down to, as i see it, something i have talked about for years, it is disinformation and propaganda and it is about power, influence of money you take your pick of those three, something is in play. if the russians are going to drop 10 million into a single outlet for a few million views, i have got to expect they have 100 million plus more that is distributed somewhere else. this is the first shoe to drop. >> that is my next question, how much more is out there? also, how far did the information go, who did it get to? do we know that? how does it impact the overall information? >> this is what is so fascinating. if you go back to 2016, majority of the russian disinformation efforts that

were launched by internet research agency really focused on online social media platforms, twitter, facebook and others. what we have seen is a evolution where they diversified their platforms and they are using pod casters, they are using youtube, fake news sites. there is a second part that talks about doppelgdnger, it is for higher organization that has these fake websites that look a lot like "washington post", cnn and others and they boost fake news. ai generated content, videos, images. it is a very, very complex scheme that doj, the intelligence community are working hard to unravel. it is not just them, it is security companies that have been tracking these guys. i have been tracking these doppelgdnger guys for over a year. i was over the moon with these documents yesterday that we can expose them and tear them the

infrastructure created >> is it not just russia, what about iran's information? >> the last couple of weeks have been. we have the iranians who have been doing the hack and leak campaign with the second and maybe third outreach to journalists over the last several days. then you have china coming out of albany new york with the deputy chief of staff. we know that they are fully engaged in attempting to manipulate u.s. political discourse. they are going after influential numbers of the elite . whether you want to call the pod casters or youtube the elite, it does not matter, they have the ability to reach out and the last thing i will note here is these are not ad hoc, they are not one offs, they are very complex strategies behind the scenes. we are seeing the tip of the iceberg. there will be more and we have to be prepared. at the

same time, we cannot overplay the impact. they're very likely is no tactical impact, any single voter decisions are changing the it to your point, mika, how is the overarching information environment corrupting, eroding , losing confidence and faith? that's what we have to understand and get back to general media literacy and talking truth to power. , former director of cyber security security agency, chris krebs. >> coming up, mission governor gretchen whitmer is our guest, vice president kamala harris campaign in her state that we will talk about where things stand in her critical battleground. that is next on morning joe weekend. weekend. farxiga ca n cause ses side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection

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>> the harris campaign is kicking off its fighting for reproductive freedom to her in palm beach, florida. according to the campaign the bus tour will emphasize the stark contrast between vice president kamala harris and former president trump on the issue of choice. the reproductive freedoms tour is expected to hit 50 cities across the nation before november's election. joining us now michigan's democratic governor, gretchen whitmer. she is cochair of the harris campaign and also author of the

"new york times" best-selling memoir entitled true grinch. it is great to have you back on the show, let's start with this to her of reproductive freedoms, i would call it for women. why start in florida some would say isn't that trump country? >> it is the epicenter of trump flip-flops. bringing the message to people and talking to women and healthcare providers in our families, that is how we have a historic outcome in our 22 election here in michigan. what is important for michiganders and new yorkers and floridians to know what is at stake if we have a second trump presidency and project 2025, they are proposing monitoring women's pregnancy. this is draconian scary moment. we know you cannot trust donald trump when it comes to women's fundamental rights to make our own decisions.

kicking it off in florida i think made a lot of sense, i am confident that we will get the benefit of being a part of this conversation here in michigan as well. >> i would think in states like loretta the message would be the on reproductive freedom, my right to abortion but how about my right to be saved by a doctor when my life is in danger , my right to healthcare. i would think in florida where there is a six week ban, there are women struggling right now with serious questions as to where they should go if they need help. >> there is no question. we know over one third of american women have no ability to access abortion healthcare until they are literally dying. it is a scary situation across this country. as we have seen from trump, he has praised his appointments do united states supreme court, he was happy when roe v wade fell and the decision came out and now he is trying to pretend

that he wants longer than six weeks, even though he has flip- flopped even on that. you cannot trust donald trump when it comes to women's health, access to healthcare and that is just one of many issues you cannot trust him on. this one we know for american women and our families and the healthcare community, it is very important to us all. >> governor, we know there is polling suggesting that amongst women, abortion rights have crept up to the number one issue that they are concerned about. overall, all of the polls are consistent, the number one issue for all people in america is still the economy, inflation and the cost of goods. do you think the harris campaign , as far as you can see in michigan, has done enough to address that issue and the issue of immigration? >> i appreciate the question and i would submit abortion is about the economy too. the most profound decision a person, family, or woman can

make is whether and when to bear a child. this is about our personal economy, this is about our collective economy, how can women get in the workforce if they cannot make their own decisions about when and where to bear a child or access the healthcare they need. when you look at donald trump who wants to rip these rights away and kamala harris was to give women greater access. when you look at kamala harris's platform to get more money in the pockets of americans versus donald trump who wants to throw tariffs that will be passed on to people and crippled the american consumer, we note this is a stark choice whether it is on the economy or about the personal economy, kamala harris is going to empower people and help more americans keep money in their pocket versus what donald trump will do whatever serves his interest at the time which is why we cannot trust him. >> i am curious. i really think

it makes sense to go to 50 states are 50 cities and go to places where perhaps they do not have as much information, that problem is in the media as well, governor. there are right-wing networks that people watch all day long where they are breathing in and hearing a constant stream of ugly things about joe biden or ugly things about kamala harris, lately even pushing over into the misogynistic and disgusting. my question is, are you welcome on fox news? if you are, would you go there to bring the message? some call it a arm of the trump network, heading in there to speak to those viewers, would that be a good strategy and is it possible? >> absolutely. i will go anywhere and talk to anyone on any subject, especially on something as important as this upcoming

election we know at the end of the day the american voter is smart. they work hard. the average person in this country is hard-working and trying to do right by their families. expect their leaders to work harder than they do and to be better than they are. i think it is important to ask yourself, who is going to make your life better? we know kamala harris has plans to focus on the people, has lived an average normal life like most americans doing hard jobs that pay by the hour, versus a guy who never has, he does not talk about his vision for america but he wants retribution. every one of us has a choice to make, what we put out in the world and what we consume. i think most people are tired of politics as usual where it gets nasty and they want leaders to solve problems for you that is a powerful message that the harris-walz campaign and administration needs to bring to the people. i want to be a part of it and i have been

a part of it, i will talk to anyone. >> democratic governor of michigan, gretchen whitmer. thank you very much for coming on. again, her new book is available now. thank you very much. >> coming up, we will talk about vice president kamala harris's new economic proposals with colorado governor and former small business owner, jared polis. s. ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited

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i want to press the point, when a political candidate comes up with what i think is a good idea and i have to call at that. of $50,000 tax cut or not tax cut credit that started with small businesses coupled with less redtape, i got to say that is a good idea regardless of other tax ideas. >> foxbusiness host sewer barney with that praise yesterday for kamala harris's small business tax credit plan. under her proposal tax

reductions would dramatically increase from $5000-$50,000 for small businesses start up expenses. joining us now we have colorado's democratic governor, jared polis, he is also chair of the national governors association. for the purposes of this conversation, you yourself started small businesses, what do you think of the harris plan? >> i think it is exciting as a former entrepreneur myself and before i got into public service, i started several companies. it is a big deal to see a potential president talk about entrepreneurship and risk- taking in a positive way and not just aspirational a, 25 new 25 million new businesses, to say tangibly instead of a $5000 startup reduction, who can start a business with $5000,

50,000 will make it easier to get into federal and government contracting easier to start a business. this is an exciting agenda and i think entrepreneurs, risktakers can really get behind. >> governor, in terms of growing businesses are starting new businesses, you have two programs that were mentioned in the notes we have, patriot boot camp and text stars. tell us about that and the impact it can have on not just specifically veterans, the impact it can have on people starting up new businesses. >> it is a big deal. patriot boot camp is a nonprofit working with veterans to help give them the skills they need to be entrepreneurs, tech stars is what i cofounded more than a decade ago also, i was on academy, if you will, three months on-site developing skills to raise the capital to grow your company. again, today's small garage startup could be tomorrow's

thousand person company. that is what kamala harris gets and making it easier to take risks and start companies, saving on healthcare, making housing more affordable, reducing the cost of starting a new business and enlarging the tax reduction for startups, these are the types of things that can help new businesses get off the ground. i am excited that there are great programs like this on the nonprofit side and check stars on the floor prophesy better make sure that first-generation entrepreneurs are getting skills that they need to raise capital. , governor, isn't this also a real sense of really giving us clarity on the concerns of both candidates with vice president harris and donald trump? donald trump will give a tax break to billionaires and chilean errors and she is coming in with her economic proposals for the man and woman that wants to start a business getting a $50,000 tax credit to get started, isn't it

showing the contrast of which side of the american public and those that want to engage in business that you are going to give priority to? >> look, you look at some of the big multinational corporations, some of them are effectively paying close to zero tax because of their clever overseas structures and we need to crack down on those loopholes and stop putting the small business entrepreneur at a disadvantage. kamala harris wants to level the playing field to expand the economy to make sure anyone with a great idea and the country has less barriers to start and grow their own company. if they play by the rules and work hard in united states. >> up next author on his new book nexis and the impact artificial intelligence can have on the 2024 election. stay with us. with us.

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artificial intelligence. your times best selling author yuval noah harari anoint joins us with his new book titled nexus, a brief history of information from the stone age to ai. we do not have time to go from the stone age to ai but i know you will be back tomorrow. today, let's focus on the impact of ai on our politics which we are seeing already and we have seen the past couple of election cycles. as you study it and look at it, what is the potential impact that ai could have on the way the country votes. >> i want to be clear to everybody is we have the most sophisticated information technology in history and people are losing the ability to talk with each other. something is obviously wrong. there are many expeditions that are unique to the u.s. about what is happening in american society and american politics,

it is the same thing in my home country and israel, you see the same thing in brazil, france, philippines, all over the world, the democratic conversation is falling apart and democracy is a conversation. the fault is with technology. democracy is built on top of information technology. for most of human history, large- scale democracy was impossible because of large-scale real- time conversation was impossible. the only examples that we have of ancient democracies are city states like athens or smaller tribes. you do not have an example of a large country, millions of people over thousands of kilometers to function democratically before the rise of modern information technology. newspapers, radio, television. information technology is not something you have on the side of democracy, it is the infrastructure, it is the basis. any major upheaval in

information technology is bound to create a political earthquake , which is what we are experiencing. >> we have this world, don't we , of choose your own adventure. if you can hear the story you want to hear based on your political ideology or your field to a certain point, how does a.i. play into that ? we talk about the silos that the version of truth and the fact that we present here on our show every day can be 180 degrees from some of the lies you may hear other places. how does a.i. factor into that ? >> it amplifies that. it could now start content by itself. previously we saw the algorithms battle for human attention by presenting us with certain content. but it could not create the content by itself. all the content was created by

human beings. a.i. is the first technology in history that can actually make decisions by itself and create new ideas by itself it can create text and images and videos and so forth. we are just seeing the beginning of this new wave and the other thing that a.i. is capable of doing, which no previous technology could, is create intimate relationships with human beings, hold conversations with them. >> that is it for us this saturday. we are back tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. eastern for a sunday episode of morning joe weekend. for now, stick around, up next is msnbc the weekend. weekend. good morning. it is saturday, september 7, i am