but for trump's advisors, sticking to her record will be essential to them feeling good about tonight. >> national correspondent for "politico," meredith mcgraw, thank you so much. we'll be reading your latest reporting online. it cannot be this campaign. one we weren't sure was going to happen. one that, of course, comes on the heels of a consequential debate, a debate that changed the democratic ticket. now, vice president harris versus former president trump. we, of course, will have complete coverage all day long on msnbc and right back here tomorrow morning. thanks to you all for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ray, when the bank opens in the morning, they'll foreclose. >> people will come, ray. >> you're broke, ray. you sell now or lose everything. >> the one constant through all the years, ray, has been baseball. america is ruled by it like an army of steamrollers.

it's been erased like a blackboard, erased and built again. but baseball will mark the time. this field, this game, it's a part of our past, ray. it reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again. oh, people will come, ray. people will most definitely come. >> oh, my goodness. one of the many iconic moments from james earl jones' died yes age of legacy. right now, around this set and around homes across america, men are weeping and women next to them are going, i don't get it. guys walking out of cornfields? i'll tell you, willie geist, long after we are all gone, they will, people will be looking at

that scene, and as long as baseball is played, the same reaction, the same reaction. what an incredible actor. what an incredible moment. what an incredible life. >> yeah, i watched that monologue again actually early this morning, just from start to finish, the tension in that scene when costner is told he needs to spell the farm, and james earl jones stands up, with the way he's always commanded a screen, a stage, wherever he's been, with his face or voice even, and says, "no, ray, they will come." convinces him to hang on, and the dream continues there. my gosh, we'll get into it a little deeper. darth vader, of course. he wasamerica," he was so great. >> come on. >> simba. >> there was a theater named after james earl jones. he had an incredible stage career. won three tonys, i think, going back to the 1950s, groundbreaking actor. he did the flashy stuff we know about, like darth vader, but also just one of the most highly respected actors on the stage,

on the screen, who has ever lived. >> incredible. you brought up "the lion king." simba, you are more than you have become. it loops in my mind every day. come on, joe, be better. [ laughter ] anyway, mika, in case you didn't understand the scene from "lion king," it makes sense when a young ballplayer walks off the field, turns into burt lancaster, and saves a little girl's life. >> okay, thank you. >> we'll watch it again. meanwhile, it's a really big day politically with the first and possibly only debate between vice president kamala harris and donald trump tonight in philadelphia. we're going to preview that showdown and go through the latest polling from states which could decide november's election. also ahead, we're going to explain the false claims about migrants and pets that are being amplified by the trump -- >> wait, wait, hold on. >> the trump family is

amplifying this? >> yeah. >> i mean, this is -- i mean, i don't even know where to begin. >> you know, it used to be, i think in 2018, 2020, the lie about immigrants and illegal immigrants, katty, was they were bringing leprosy to america, which, of course, they were not. now, it is that they are eating your dogs. >> cats. >> they are coming to america and eating your cats. >> yeah, don't live in ohio with a cat because it might get eaten, obviously. >> little mittens is going to be dinner. >> sweeping the country. it's a terrible, terrible thing. this is absolutely ridiculous and scraping the bottom of the barrel. jd vance has been, you know, amplifying this. apparently, this has gone crazy on the right-wing social media sites. >> yeah. >> the allegation -- this comes with a public health warning. immigrants are not eating your cats. >> yes. >> come on. >> the story is haitian

immigrants are eating cats. >> this is how things have changed, sam. >> yeah. >> there's always been crazy -- >> this is social media. >> the craziness of the internet. also, you have people on the presidential ticket actually spreading these lies. >> right. >> now you have jd vance running around going, "they are eating your cats. ". >> yeah. i mean -- >> what is this guy's obsession about cats? first he hates them, then he likes them, then he's trying to save them. i don't get it. i think inflation -- >> maybe too many women like cats rather than jd vance. >> cat women. >> now we're -- >> you have the cats. >> now he is the great protector of cats. >> makes sense if you think about it that way. to your point, yeah, they all have microphones. they all have huge platforms of their own, right? used to be they'd have to call a press conference or do sit-down interviews to spread lies. now, in succession, there's ten official accounts or unofficial accounts associated with the

trump campaign that amplifies this completely manufactured -- >> complete lie. >> yeah. >> also another complete lie, jonathan lemire, that the season is over for the boston red sox. >> oh, my gosh. >> we continue to fail up. we continue to lose. we continue to gain on the minnesota twins. the only team in baseball worse than the red sox right now. >> yeah, the red sox have done their best to fall out of this playoff race. >> we're trying! we are really giving it our all. >> the twins, and to a lesser degree, the world won't let us. >> three games back. >> we're three games back, tied with the tigers. it's a three-way tie. tigers. it's a three-way tie. twins and royals. you know, we did the yankees, sadly, willie, a favor, beating the orioles, allowing them to extend the lead atop the a.l. east. somehow, the dream won't die at fenway. >> yankees have been middling over the last month or so, but

they got a little help from the red sox. >> you're welcome. >> yankees up a game and a half now. the red sox, three games out. every time you say they're dead, they watch "morning joe," they put up on the bulletin board in the clubhouse. >> motivation. >> and they win again. >> yes. also with us, we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's nation," reverend al sharpton. ahead of tonight's debate, a slew of polls finds a tight race for the -- across a number of battleground states. according to the latest morning consult survey, donald trump is up two points in both arizona and florida. the former president and kamala harris are tied in georgia, while the vice president is up three points in michigan. the pair are tied in both nevada and north carolina, while harris is up three points in both pennsylvania and wisconsin. all of these polls fall within the margin of error.

of course, polls are polls, joe. they're kind of a snapshot, but wow, quite a tight race. >> a snapshot. again, we think "the new york times"/siena poll provide democrats with the monthly freak out. psychiatrists up and down fifth avenue had to double down on medicine these last couple days. they're going to be having an act of business. they thank them for that. here, we have polls that now, i mean, katty, you look at these polls, and none is good news for donald trump. okay, he's up two in arizona, a state they thought they'd put away. only down two in florida. listen, this could be an outlier. >> yeah. >> it could be an outlier, except for the fact we keep seeing polls that show harris only down four points. i've seen three points, four points, now two points in florida. florida is a competitive race. you know, democrats got a false positive a couple years ago when

the democratic party just did not compete in the governor's race against desantis. we'll see. biden only lost it by 3 1/2 points. this is a little bit closer. you know, you look tight in georgia. that's a race that trump people said they put away months ago. you know, mika, i can hear you whispering when i'm talking at the table. okay, sweetie? >> i was just whispering sweet nothings into your ear. >> well, they are nothings because it's distracting me. >> i'm sorry. >> i want to know what really happened in the baseball movie. >> i still don't get it. >> okay. here we go. i'll try this again, katty. florida, only about -- trump is only up two. he is tied in georgia. he's tied in north carolina. states that they thought were put away. and then you go up to the industrial midwest states. again, all ties within the margin of error, but the ties certainly tilting toward harris,

who is up, what, three in the three big states? >> the up in pennsylvania is interesting for harris because she hasn't been up in many of the polls. that's the one worth watching, to see whether that is -- how much that reflects what is happening in pennsylvania. but the pattern from this, florida, i don't know. we have heard donald trump is spending money in the west palm beach area. i thought that was perhaps because he wanted to see the ads from mar-a-lago, wanted his friends to see the ads. actuallywell, we do actually need to spend money in florida? all of this points to the fact that, yes, it's tight, and the trump campaign now has to spend in some of those states that it has, thought they put it away. kamala harris at the moment has the benefit of resources and can spend in the states, is doing so, and has expanded the ground game she's inherited from joe biden. the money helps her there. trump is going to have to spread his resources a little thinner.

>> reverend al, he'll have to spread them across seven states. in effect, these seven states are tied. if kamala harris is competitive in nevada and arizona, in florida, in georgia, in north carolina, that is money that's going to be spread out across four, five, six states, and money that's not going into michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania, the three states that really, at the end of the day, make the biggest difference. >> and those states are the states that he probably needed more than any other time to spend money on. now, he has to spread that money around. and his biggest problem is he has no real infrastructure in the space. where a lot of people are not looking at, kamala harris and the dnc see the infrastructure in all those states which you need to get out early voting, which you need to get out voting. donald trump is all about donald

trump. it's driven by the candidate kind of race in terms of their strategy. no real infrastructure and organization on the ground, particularly in areas that they're not already strong. so not having the money to build and fund an infrastructure in those states is also going to come back to haunt him, i believe, on election day. >> willie, the -- i almost said the biden team -- the harris team as well as the trump team have basically admitted, tie goes to harris. if these states are truly tide going into the donald trump does not have the ground game. he just doesn't. he is -- actually, he subbed it out to third parties in many cases. harris has been spending the hundreds of millions of dollars. it was on the biden race before it. build the ground game to shape close races.

>> the biden campaign already built the infrastructure with jen o'malley dillon. the harris campaign plugged into that all while raising half a billion dollars on top of it. you're right, they have the infrastructure. yes, these are all within the margin of error, but where this race was before kamala harris came on board, and we talk to the same people in the campaign who privately conceded that north carolina, probably nevada, arizona, and maybe even georgia, they were going to let those go effectively. they were fighting, but they just had to win the three blue wall states. now, those are in play. we should also joint out, john, a place like north carolina, there's the residue of trump in someone like kari lake, not doing well. helping the democrat in the

race. in north carolina -- what is the polite way to say it? >> controversial. >> i was going to go a step further but we'll go with those. >> weird. >> okay. that could help kamala harris, as well, in north carolina. >> no question. also, in a few of these states, abortion rights on the ballot, which has been a winner for democrats since the dobbs decision of two years ago. and, you know, there's some variance in the polls. one earlier today, you know, harris is up a couple in georgia but down a couple in north carolina, vice vera. doesn't matter. the particulars are not important. what matters is these races are close. momentum and trend lines largely favoring harris. and she does have a significant advantage in ground game. talking to republicans in the last 24 hours or so, a growing narrative of concern about how, as joe said, the trump campaign has farmed out a lot of the blocking and tackling here. they've farmed out the ground game turnout operation. instead, they've used the money, first of all, for trump legal

bills for a while, and, secondly, efforts to combat voter fraud, non-existent voter fraud for the most part, including claims that non-citizens were voting. we know that's not the case. there's never been data to support that. that just adds to thedemocrats . harris has more money and can spend less time fundraising and more time in the battleground states. >> gallego, the democrat, up eight points over kari lake. with that as a backdrop, we're hours away from tonight's debate between donald trump and kamala harris. the showdown begins at 9:00 p.m. eastern at philadelphia at the national constitution center. this will be the first time the two have faced off on a debate stage against each other. it is also actually the first time they've ever met in person. there will, again, be no audience in the room. both sides agreed to the rules ahead of time. those include microphones only

being on for the candidate whose turn it is to speak, and muted when the time belongs to the other candidate. only the moderators will be allowed to ask questions. trump won the coin loss and will give the final closing statement. closing statements will be two minutes per candidate. there will be no opening statement. they'll dive right in for a 90-minute debate. each candidate will be given two minutes to answer each question with a two-minute rebuttal. additional minute for follow-up clarification or response. candidates will stand behind podiums for the duration of the debate. no props or prewritten notes allowed on stage. each will be given a pen, pad of paper, and bottle of water. staff cannot interact with candidates during commercial breaks. ahead of the face-off, vice president harris gave a radio interview yesterday saying she expects trump is going to lie tonight. >> he plays from this really old and tired playbook, right? there's no floor for him in

terms of how low he will go. and we should be prepared for that. we should be prepared for the fact that he is not burdened by telling the truth, and we should be prepared for the fact that he is probably going to speak a lot of untruth. he has a playbook that he has used in the past, be it, you know, his attacks on president obama or hillary clinton, so we should expect that some of that might come out. >> that's kind of obvious. i wonder, looking at these rules that you put out there, willie, how far apart the candidates will be. because one of the issues is if you put the mic, but if the candidates can still hear each other, that can be incredibly distracting. i think trump often uses that to his benefit. he can just bellow at the candidate and distract them. >> these were the rules originally set, and the harris campaign wanted it to be

changed, turn the mics on. >> if they can hear each other, it doesn't really -- >> i don't know the strategy. >> it's distracting. >> i can tell you, i'm 1,000 miles away from mika right now, and she's whispering. she's distracting me, so it can be distracting. i hope there's a long enough -- >> funny. >> -- distance between the two. it is funny. >> yeah. >> it is funny, sweetie. >> so many things i could say. >> there's so many. >> go ahead. >> no, you go ahead. no. all right. katty, we'll keep it in washington so mika can whisker -- she can whisper about "the lion king." >> "red october." >> one of the best movies ever, and his role in that. >> sorry. >> we'll be doing this all day. >> come on. >> amazing. >> anyway, for harris tonight, the first thing i'd do is, donald, thank you so much for your political contribution to

me in 2014. i greatly appreciate it. i wouldn't be here without it. also, we know what donald trump is going to say. people inside the campaign have already said, have told others, that campaign prep, his go-to line is going to be, "you and joe biden wrecked the border, and you wrecked the economy. you wrecked the border and wrecked the economy." no matter what she talks about, he'll pivot back to those two things. what's the harris strategy? >> what they'd like to do is get him to behave like he did in that dumpster fire of a debate in 2020. he went off the rails with joe biden. >> the roids debate. >> pre-covid. >> he had covid. >> yeah. >> couldn't stop himself. he interrupted. it was a worse trumpian version of himself. that's where they want to get to. donald trump can be disciplined for 90 minutes if he needs to be, so they'll have to try to break that down. the word old, i wouldn't be

surprised if that comes up a lot. old story, old ideas, small ideas, small person, that could come up quite a lot i'm hearing. little words that might trigger him. direct attacks on him to try and get under his skin. they have to get him to be trump. i mean, that's -- because if it ends up being a debate purely on him being able to say, "you wrecked the economy, and you wreaked the border," that's not a win for her. it has to be about him behaving badly, as much as it is about her. of course, she's going to be presidential. >> i agree with the old versus new thing, which they've been going for. if you've noticed, a lot of the messaging they're putting out there, the harris campaign, it's about you care for yourself. you want -- you're selfish. all you care about is yourself. you want to cut a tax cut for rich people like yourself. we need to go forward with a middle-class agenda. i think, actually, in this case,

the campaign will try to keep it substantive and position her as the populist tier and take away some of what he tries to present to the public. that could rattle him, i suppose. that's what they want to go at, the contrast of looking forward. we realize costs need to get under control. our plan will do it. your plan will not. your plan is to reward corporate interests and wealthy donors and make that the main dynamic. >> it's become harder for them to be able to rely on him to be the bad version of himself. >> exactly. >> that changes the strategy. >> yeah. mika, obviously, there will be a lot of pivots toward freedom and what donald trump is trying to take away from you. he wants to take away women's rights to make a decision. he promised to take away your health care. he wants to take away your money. he wants to give it to billionaires. the greatest wealth

redistribution happens under donald trump but with us. we have entrepreneurs and a tax plan that does that. there's a lot of good contrasts here. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, another contrast is he's a felon, and a lot of people who worked in his administration are convicted of crimes. i mean, it's just an aside. >> she, of course, a prosecutor. i mean, i think that will be front and center tonight for at least part of it. on the mic, someone in the harris camp said, if trump indeed starts talking and trieg to distract her, she'll turn to the audience and say, well, you might not be able to hear him, but donald trump is saying x, y, z, maybe thinking that will prompt abc to turn on his microphone. >> whose idea was it to turn off the mics? >> original rules from the trump/biden debate heading into june. harris' team tried to change it, but trump's team wanted to keep it. abc said we should stick to the rules that were established. there may be ways around it. rev, i think there will be a

moment here for the vice president to reintroduce herself to the american public. we saw polls, even americans who like her don't know much about her. we're learning her policies. this is an opportunity to fill in the gaps. also, it should be said, now the contrast of these two candidates on stage. now, donald trump is the, quote, old guy in the match. >> he's the old guy. i think she also must show a different contrast. she must show with many of us that have gotten to know her down through the years, and i've known her 20, 25 years, i've known him 40, the contrast is, in my opinion, she's got to show that she can handle donald trump, so she can show she can handle putin and those she'd have to handle on an international level as president. at the same time, she understands the average american. she's called me sometimes doing facetime while preparing dinner.

she says, i know the price of groceries. i cook for my family, even when she was vice president. when is the last time you've been to a grocery store, mr. trump? when is the last time you helped prepare a meal? i think she needs to be able to show the broad width of her experience, that i can handle global dictators because i'm looking at one would-be dictator. i can also understand what it means to stand in line at the grocery store and the prices are going up, which is why we tried to fight to bring inflation down. if she can show that, which he cannot show either. he has love letters with dictators and wouldn't trump tower. >> i'm laughing at the idea of donald trump pushing a cart through a kroger. >> yeah. >> i bet that's never happened. to john's point, just a snapshot of how much things have changed since the june debate with joe biden. above the fold in "the new york times," "is donald trump too old?" the focus now is on trump. >> wow. >> especially given his recent ramblings when he was talking

about using tariffs, which would make things cost more for consumers in the united states to pay for child care. that obviously went viral. >> tables turned there. coming up, ahead of tonight's debate, former president trump is still suggesting democrats could change the top of the ticket. floating the idea that president biden could re-enter the race. okay. also this morning, the latest from overseas as ukraine launches a massive drone assault across russia. and the princess of wales, kate middleton, has completed chemotherapy treatment. we'll take a look at what she's saying about her health. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. you didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. you're here to sell more today than yesterday. you're here to win. lucky for you, shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet. like the just one-tapping, ridiculously

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she certainly has not only across britain but across the world, katty. >> also, i think what she's done by speaking out, which is so unusual. this video is unusual for the royal family, too. the fact that she has spoken out about her cancer, the fact the king spoke out about his prostate cancer has been a public service announcement for brits. you hear it there in the video. i mean, you know, it's kind of sort of hollywoodish mini movie video, which is a bit strange for brits. we don't do that thing very often, especially out of the royal family. >> stiff upper lip and all that stuff. >> not that. >> i've got me a bit of a problem. >> just talks to other cancer survivors. the fact she's done that openly has been really helpful. it's been seen as being helpful in fact uk. >> willie, i think it'll be very moving for a lot of people that are struggling with cancer. and the fact that she's said she understands what they're going through, and she's going to stay with them and keep fighting. >> yeah. someone that high-profile and

that well-known giving a voice to something that's touched all our families in one way or another, very important. as katty said, being in the uk, being so outspoken. she's an incredible woman, incredibly strong, and glad to hear she's doing well. >> hopefully this is good news for her. time for a look at the other stories making headlines this morning. for the first time in years, u.s. and chinese military commanders spoke directly last night over the phone. it comes as both countries look to rebuild military ties in an effort to avoid conflict. the white house called the conversation constructive and respectful. placing a heavy focus on beijing's increasingly brazen claims to a huge portion of the south china sea. justice elena kagan is doubling down on her push for an ethics code on the u.s. supreme court. it follows a series of reports about undisclosed gifts to some of her colleagues and private

efforts to influence the justices. those calling for reforms have been advocating for an external enforcement mechanism that could be overseen by retired or experienced judges. apple's new iphone comes with built-in artificial intelligence. the company's latest device unveiled yesterday will be able to sort messages, offer writing suggestions, and use a more capable virtual assistant. apple's business has sputtered in recent years as iphone users have held on to their phones for longer. the new models will be available starting on september 20th. and just a short time ago, four private astronauts blasted off from the kennedy space center in florida on a five-day mission aboard a spacex rocket. the crew is scheduled to take part in the first space walk conducted by non-professional astronauts and will travel further from earth than anyone

since nasa's moon landing more than 50 years ago. we'll be watching that. willie. >> amazing, by the way, a lo the curtain of tv production. our executive producer said in my ear, willie be do the eating pets story next. >> oh, good. >> which is a strange thing. >> that's what it says. >> strange thing for one person to say to another. here it goes. >> okay. >> republicans in recent days have been amplifying false claims about migrants eating pets and wildlife. disinformation began spreading on social media over the weekend, fueled by a story that appeared to come from a facebook group in springfield, ohio. >> what's wrong with these people? >> random person in this local group posted their neighbor's daughter's friend had lost her cat, claiming haitians used to pet for food. a screenshot of the facebook post was shared on x sunday by a

conservative pundit, racking up 3 million views in 24 hours. the false claim then spread by other prominent supporters of donald trump, including elon musk. >> this is why it was trending yesterday. like major news. >> elon musk amplified it, stating it as a matter of fact. also, senator ted cruz. >> fantastic. >> and republican congressman jim jordan of ohio. this is congressional leadership amplifying this. then trump's running mate, jd vance, posted yesterday about haitian immigrants, calling them illegal and echoing the false claims about pets being abducted and eaten. i'm not making this up. springfield, ohio, police said in a statement, there are no credible reports of haitian immigrants harming pets. the city posted a statement saying the haitians are in the united states legally under a humanitarian program. >> members of the trump family were treating this, like, look what's happening. you have to vote for donald trump. >> rev, to joe's point earlier,

this is the kind of stuff that, not that long ago, would pop up in these dark, strange corners of the internet and be snuffed out. the mouth breathers could talk about it among themselves. now, you have elon musk, and it's risen to the top of the presidentiearly made up. "the washington post" has a long piece debunking this, too. the photograph they're using isn't even from springfield. the person is not haitian. on and on. >> well, and i think the danger of this is to allow us to continue to mainstream stuff that used to just be looked at as some craziness on the outside of any serious consideration of what's going on. and don't miss the racial angle here. haitian immigrants. >> yes, illegal. >> jd vance particularly zeroing in on haitian immigrants. i think that this goes to, you know, blacks are cannibals and

eat each other. it plays into all of that history of racism, which is part of what donald trump has appealed to since charlottesville, since birth birthrism. it's not just immigrants but haitian immigrants eating your pets, eating your animals, because you know they're cannibals. we can't miss that. >> the rev can't be more right about this. it is about race, about other, about immigration, about all these scare tactics. we've seen it in other trump campaign, you know, propaganda they've put out there. they suggested, like, you want this america or this america? they show a city, you know, rah ravished by crime, and all the faces are non-white, versus the idyllic suburban setting with white people. that's what the trump campaign is leaning on as he faces a non-white opponent. >> yeah. joe, there used to be a floor or barrier where certain people

wouldn't amplify something demonstrably untrue. >> right. >> there used to be the world's second or third richest man, who is an important figure in our culture and world, wouldn't amplify this. certainly, a presidential ticket would not amplify it. but those days apparently are gone. >> long gone. you know, sam, again, as we've said, this happens every two years. >> right. >> preposterous claims. again, caravans always coming at election time. donald trump sending troops down to the border in 2018, thinking it was going to help him politically. it didn't. it just kept people in the military away from their families and away from their bases through thanksgiving. but, you know, before it was leprosy, and now they're talking about, you know, eating pets. >> yeah. >> and, i mean, it's all a lie. they're not -- these people, as the town said, they're not illegal immigrants. >> right. >> they're here legally.

>> here's a few good and important facts here. springfield, ohio, it's a town where we've seen an influx of haitian migrants coming largely from the south because jobs are coming back to springfield, ohio. the industrial midwest is prospering under biden. all these people are coming into the small town. it's been disrupted for some social services, for instance. government officials are trying to figure out what to do with the school and policing. second thing is, there was one cat-eating incident. it happened in canton, ohio, which is 130 miles away, not involving a haitian immigrant. the third thing, anyone who spent time in haiti, with haitian americans, and i have, this is a constant thing shot at them. haitians are witch doctors, primitives, eat animals, they're dangerous. the difference here, joe, between past warnings about caravans, for instance, is in that case, the people were not here already. in this case, the haitian migrants are here. what jd vance, trump's campaign,

and others are doing is they're putting a spotlight on a community, a fairly vulnerable community in ohio, and they're telling their supporters, look at these people. they're here and taking not only your jobs, they're taking your pets and eating them. it's not very hard to see a few steps down the road, that leads to something pretty bad. >> the remarkable thing about america compared to europe has been the way that immigrants get integrated into communities. what this incident makes me think of is a moment in france and italy. you have migrants living in kind of almost ghetto type situations. they have no contact with the community at all. they are deliberately otherized and pushed out. yet, economic study after economic study shows the reason the united states has done so well compared to other european countries since covid is because of the influx of migrants into the country. >> right. >> those haitian immigrants who have helped the rejuvenation of springfield, ohio, by boosting the economic output of the area. >> mika, this is, again, just a follow-up on more

anti-immigration nonsense that has been coming from the trump right. we talked about it yesterday. they're talking about how bad they are for workers in america. we talked about silicon valley and across america, foreign born ceos. you look at the tech revolution that, you know, started in the 1980s through the '90s and through now. you know, an overwhelming number of those people, whether you're talking about google or yahoo! or uber, go down the list, their founders all came from other countries. >> right. >> to form these companies. i've been saying this 20, 30 years, when people are freaking out about immigrants coming to america. even immigrants that are getting, you know, degrees. would you rather them go back to new delhi and start a business there, or would you rather them start it in north carolina? because that's the choice we have. it's the way tom friedman always

said. you get a phd, and somebody that's an immigrant, staple a green card to the back of that diploma and say, please, stay here, work, start businesses, build our economy. that's what's happened. and the person who knows this the most, the guy who -- the guy who has this singular obsession with cats, first talking about childless cat lady, and now talking about the eating of cats, jd vance knows better than anybody else the contributions immigrants have made to this country. the immeasurable contributions. because he worked with them for years in silicon valley and got rich doing it. so he knows he's lying. he knows this is nonsense. he knows he is playing to the lowest common denominator. and he doesn't have to go back and look at ronald reagan farewell speeches to understand

what makes america strong economically. he saw it for years in silicon valley. >> they all know. most of them know, joe. republican leaders, trump family, instagram influencers, they know what they're saying, and they know they're misleading people. coming up, our next guest is taking a look at what qualities make a good leader. most importantly, a president. a former deputy assistant to president carter joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." according to a new report, elon musk is on pace to become the world's first trillionaire by 2027. people are worried that once he becomes a trillionaire, he might get weird. [ laughter ]

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but ivf could be banned, too. do they think we're less than human? do they think we can't make decisions? about our own bodies? about our own lives? when you vote, please think about me. and me. -and me. because the politician who got rid of roe v wade, he couldn't care less.

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now xfinity internet customers can buy one line of unlimited and get one free for a year. governor reagan, as a matter of fact, began his political career campaigning around this nation against medicare. now, we have an opportunity to move toward national health insurance. with an emphasis on the prevention of disease, an

emphasis on outpatient care, not inpatient care, an emphasis on hospital cost containment to hold down the cost of hospital care for those who are ill. these are the kind of elements of a national health insurance important to the american people. governor reagan, again, typically is against such a proposal. >> governor, there you go again. >> that was then california governor ronald reagan in 1980 during the debate against president jimmy carter. with that response, reagan was able to undercut carter's attack, even though reagan had said medicare would lead to a total loss of freedom in america. the exchange is one of the many consequential moments discussed in the new book entitled "the highest calling, conversations on the american presidency." and its author joins us now. served as co-founder and

co-chairman of the carlyle group. davidrubenstein, this is outstanding. i jumped to the page of my father. >> at the white house, i didn't realize you were going to bring back the debate. it's a famous line that reagan gave, but the truth was, he wasn't really telling the truth. reagan said to carter, there you go again. but what carter said was accurate, that reagan opposed medicare. >> talk about "the highest calling," why you took out to write this book. the timing seems quite good. >> i worked in the white house as a young man. hair was darker and i was a little thinner. i worked with your father, as well. i have spent some time in washington over the last 30 plus years since i left the white house, and i've gotten to know some people who serve as president. i've gotten to know scholars who have written about presidents. i thought it'd be interesting to interview the scholars and some of the living presidents, including president biden and president trump, former president trump. i wanted to remind people about

the importance of voting. i want people to get to know the presidents and the candidates and vote. we have 80 million people in this country eligible to vote who don't vote. last time, we had 160 million people vote, but we had about 80 million people who could have voted but didn't. i think our democracy would be stronger if more people voted. >> david, we like you're bringing orioles energy to the set this morning with your black and orange tie. you have red sox, yankees, and orioles, a.l. east. >> well represented. >> you mentioned your interviews with president biden and former president trump. i'm curious about your reflections, given what we'll see tonight about donald trump. said he had no regrets when you talked to him about anything in his presidency. talked about it being a lonely job. what else did you glean from the conversation with him? >>at else did you glean from the conversation with him? >> president biden? >> former president trump. >> president trump. president trump gave me the interview. i've known him a while, and he gave me the interview before a

trial that morning. i spent an hour on the phone with him. i wasn't physically with him at that time. i didn't think he's a person with a lot of regrets. he's not a person that looks back and says, i'm sorry i said this, sorry i did that. that's not his style. but he obviously is a person who is committed to what he believes in. i think underestimating him is a mistake. many times, americans have underestimated him. >> yes. >> that's been a mistake, and i think it'd be a mistake to underestimate him now. for example, "the new york times" poll the other day showed he's technically one point ahead. it'll be a very close election one way or the other. debates probably will change a little bit, but debates usually reaffirm people's existing views. they don't really get people to switch parties, things like that. >> david, these are disparate characters. clinton, bush, biden, to name a few, seeking the higher caller. is there any consistencies from the people who seem on the surface so wildly different? >> ambition is one. nobody tries to be president because they don't want to be

president. they get there generally by trying to get there. these are people that are smart, hard working, they're very focused on what they believe in. i think many of these people have a level of ambition that most of us don't really recognize. out of, you know, 330 million americans, to say i'm the most qualified to be president of the united states is a daunting thing. but that's what they're really saying. "the highest calling," the reason i called it that, i've been saying tongue and cheek, private equity is the highest calling. it's not quite as high a calling as probably being president of the united states. >> do you find, david, in your study that, you know, there's different types of leaders? some that have a vision for the world, and some that are just driven by their ambition. do you go into that in the book, on the difference between what motivated the presidents you talked about? >> yes, they're all motivated because they believe they have the ability to do something nobody else in the country can

do at that time, which is to lead the country. some get there by different routes. some worked up, some came from nowhere like donald trump. they all think they can do something no one else can do. they want to make the country better. no one wants to make the country worse. they want to make it better. what i'm trying to say in the book is read about the presidents, learn about them. if you're going to make an informed decision, know about the candidates. jefferson used to say that a representative democracy works only if you have an informed citizenry. unfortunately, sometimes people don't know as much as they should about the presidential candidates. i'm trying to get people to both vote and be voting intelligently. read about the candidates. know what you're doing when you go to vote. >> the new book, "the highest calling, conversations on the american presidency," is on sale now. "new york times" best selling author david rubenstein, thank you. it is great to see you in person. >> my pleasure. >> take care. thank you. congratulations on the book,

too. >> thank you. ahead, democratic national committee chair jaime harrison will join the conversation ahead of tonight's high-stakes presidential debate. plus, donald trump's niece, mary trump, will join us with more stories about what she describes as her family's dysfunction. what her new book is now revealing ahead of the election. also, we're taking a look at one of the greatest comebacks in rock history. 50 years after the release of paul mccartney's hit solo album "band on the run," we'll dig into joe's new piece for "the atlantic." that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ i thought the only lonely place was on the moon ♪ customizes car insurance, so they only pay for what they need. got it? [squawks] did you get that? only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty,♪ ♪liberty, liberty.♪ donald trump's back, and he's out for control.

♪liberty, liberty,♪ i would have every right to go after them. complete control. i will wield that power very aggressively. and he has a plan to get it. detailed plans for exactly what our movement will do. it's called project 2025, a 922-page blueprint to make donald trump the most powerful president ever: overhauling the department of justice, giving trump the unchecked power to seek vengeance, eliminating the department of education, and defunding k through 12 schools, requiring the government to monitor women's pregnancies, and severe cuts to medicare and social security. donald trump may try to deny it, but those are donald trump's plans. we'll revenge does take time. i will say that sometimes revenge can be justified. he'll take control. we'll pay the price. i'm kamala harris, and i approved this message.

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form is the first presidential debate between harris and trump tomorrow. biden offered support saying, the democrats could unite and kick you off the ticket. actually, the white house said biden is looking forward to the debate, which is what he did last time. but it's so trump's team doesn't call his practice debate prep, it's policy time. then after policy time, it's tummy time and then a nap. that's the way it works. [ applause ] >> jimmy fallon

evening's debate, a few hours away. vice president harris and former president trump are gearing up for their first and perhaps only showdown, as new polls showed the race remains tight. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has the latest from philadelphia. >> reporter: vice president harris touching down in philadelphia. her face-to-face with former president trump hours away. >> how you feeling? >> reporter: campaign sources tell nbc news harris and her team are focusing on ways to needle trump, to provoke him, and that she's studied past trump debate clips. >> time to turn the page on the divisiveness. it's time to bring our country together. >> reporter: but a key challenge for harris trying to present herself as the change candidate when she is also the incumbent vp. a new poll shows more than 60% of likely voters want a major change from president biden. more than half of those voters say trump will bring that change. only 25% say harris will.

meanwhile, the former president at mar-a-lago doing what sources describe as informal debate prep. among those advising him, former democratic congressman tulsi gabbert. >> we're run by stupid people, and we found that out at the debate with joe. how'd that work out? we're going to find it out again on tuesday night. >> reporter: a crucial challenge for trump, winning back more women voters. but this morning from trump rival turned supporter, nikki haley. >> donald trump and jd vance need to change the way they speak about women. you don't need to go and talk about intelligence or looks or anything else. just focus on the policies. >> i guess she's saying, put the isogyny aside and focus on the policies. try not to be a misogynist, sexist pig, you know, that kind of stuff. that was nbc's peter alexander with that report. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle and nbc news and msnbc

political analyst, former u.s. senator claire mccaskill. jonathan lemire, katty kay, and sam stein are still with us, as well. high-stakes night tonight, joe. >> yup, high-stakes night. it's kamala harris' night to define herself. look at the polls. i don't know, alex, if we can get the polls up, but you look at the polls we showed earlier, and it shows a very tight race. you look at states like florida. the map has expanded dramatically. i'm not just saying that because of the morning consul polls that just came out. you can look at florida. it's been within five points in a lot of different polls. nevada tied. north carolina tied. georgia tied. pennsylvania, harris ahead. wisconsin, harris ahead. you go through all these states, sam, and in joe biden's final few weeks, everybody kept saying

the same thing on both campaigns. he had one pathway to 270, and that was through wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. look at these polpolls, the cbs poll this weekend where we're looking at individual states, they're all up for grabs. they're all tied. in most poll over the past couple weeks, except for "the new york times"/siena poll, which, again, the psychiatrists up and down fifth avenue in new york city are very grateful. because every time it comes out, their business goes way up up in manhattan. every other poll that's come out, most of the state polls show it's a tie with advantage leaning toward harris. >> i have to be honest, "the new york times"/siena poll, i didn't understand the collective freakout among democrats. it was a one-point race. every poll we see is a tie. >> right. >> what's interesting about these polls is the tie also extends to the swing states. that was not always the case. now, these polls, who knows, right? the methodology might change,

whatever. if there are ties collective ly across six, seven states, could she win? you have to see where the race breaks. there is some data not in the polls that i think is worth mentioning. "the bulwark" has data for undecided voters, they're saying two things about the candidates. one, they're largely sick of trump, don't want to do it again. know who he is, he's a known quantity. they don't want to vote for him, but they're saying undecided because they've not heard much from her. it's ironic, she's a sitting vice president, has been on the scene five years now, but they don't know enough about her. to me, that suggests there is an opportunity for her tonight in the debate to reach that audience. andimately higher than trump's ceiling.

48% is probably his ceiling. she can get beyond that if she can communicate tonight and follow through in the post-debate strategy. >> that is the key. donald trump could go above his 47%, 48% ceiling. hasn't done it since 2016. maybe he'll do it this year. usually past his prologue politics. right now, kamala harris just has to convince the other 2%, 3% that she's a safe bet. that she is the change. they don't have to go with this guy that americans are exhausted by. they can move in a new direction. how does she do that tonight? >> i guess part of the reason for the extra xanax prescriptions is august has been an extraordinary month, right? she moved so quickly from being joe biden significantly behind in the polls, including the swing state polls, to now playing even. it looks like she's -- we're sort of stuck at the moment on even. a bunch of polls suggested that

over the last week or so. that's why democrats start to get nervous. they were used to the momentum, and the momentum may have stalled. tonight is a very important moment, and then it's a question of however many weeks, six more weeks, seven weeks of nonstop appearances. she's got to keep on making that stale and get out as much as possible. whether it is rallies, more interviews, town halls, things that get attention and give her the opportunity to tell the story in the way she wants to. there are some indications in the polls, interesting this change poll number that came out in "the new york times"/siena poll. it was different from the fox poll a week ago which suggested she is seen as change. >> that poll is different from every other poll. >> yeah. >> it always is. it always is. >> that might be somewhere where she -- she has to make a decision, how far does she distance herself from joe biden and the policies of the administration? if this is an environment where

people are look for somebody new, how can she cast herself as the new person? >> willie? >> claire, you're on your way to philadelphia, debate to want, 9:00, 90 minutes. this is an important moment for the candidates. goes without saying. particularly for vice president harris who has done one joint interview since the hoopla and energy at the dnc in chicago. first time she'll meet donald trump. first time they're on a stage together. what will you be looking for? >> she has a hard job, and i'm nervous the expectations for her are so high and the expectations for him are so low. typically, these things don't come out really lopsided. although, the last one kind of did. >> yeah. >> so i think all of us are nervous because of that maybe. listen, she's got to do three important things. she's got to be strong. she's got to show real strength so we can vanquish this idea that she's not tough enough to stand up to trump's boyfriend, putin, xi, all the ones he's so

in love with. second, she's got to be nice and give people a sense of lightness and joy and hope and optimism and feeling really good about the united states of america. the third thing she's got to do, and this is the hardest, is she's got to be the new kid on the block. she's got to figure out a way -- and by the way, she's got an advantage, willie, because people understand fundamentally that vice presidents don't make policy. the reasons america doesn't know her is she was a vice president. it's a diminishing role. everybody understands you're not in charge. you are a supporting character when you are vice president. she's got to be the leading character tonight, and she's got to not distance herself from a man that we all respect and know has done an amazing job, but she's got to establish herself as the new kid on the block, that she is the change that all of these disengaged voters, these swing voters that will decide this election, that they

see her as the change they're looking for. >> that is, mike, we heard it in the campaign -- excuse, the convention and coming out of it, that is the message, we're not going back. remember what it was like under trump? we're not going back. what democrats are expecting tonight are the hanging curve balls from the last debate, immigration, democracy, all those other things that joe biden let go past, that she will smack those out of the park. >> we'll find out tonight. claire is exactly right. this nation, and thank you to sam stein for pointing out, we have to calm down about these polls. the closest of these polls. >> don't praise them. >> i rarely do it but i want to. >> about time, thank you, mike. >> extraordinarily close. it'll remain close for a while. tonight is her introduction to the country, i would think. kamala harris. >> yeah. >> she has to prove that she can be commander in chief. she has to be nice, as you

pointed out. but she also has to do something that donald trump is incapable of ever doing. prove that she knows how people live. prove that she knows how people shop at grocery stores. prove that she knows that people's lives are up and down. and prove that she knows what a lot of people know, they're exhausted by donald trump and really don't want to vote for him. she's got to provide that alternative. to want is a good start to do it. >> certainly, polls suggest americans want to learn more about her, and that'll be key tonight, filling in the gaps. how does she go on the attack? how does she press the offensive against trump, something president biden in recent months, particularly at the atlantic debate stage wasn't able to do? what would be your counsel for her as the prosecutor? >> she needs to stay focused on what those three things are and not -- i mean, if she needles him, if he gets, you know,

trumpy, obviously way trumpy, that's whip cream and cherry on the sundae. but the ice cream is the three things i talked about. if she gets distracted by trying to needle him, she might lose that thread. he's going to get rattled just because she's going to be good. i mean, she's going to be able. i think she'll be very dismissive of it. she should just, you know, even if she did that, come on, stop. >> is there a danger in her being a woman and going, you know, too aggressively after him? >> well, i think that's why dismissive is better. yes, unfairly, i think, mika. >> yeah. >> i would agree that there is -- when you are strong and aggressive as a woman, you drift dangerously close to the b-word for many people. >> yeah. >> which is totally unfair. because you expect men who are running for president to be totally aggressive and out there. but she's been doing this a long

time. >> very elegant. >> i don't think she'll fall into the trap of not being nice. >> joe, i think, tossing it to you here, the problem a lot of moderators as well as people who have debated donald trump fall into is that trump does the weave. but the weave is not what he says is the weave, which is get ing back to to some brilliant point. he goes in five different directions, mostly lies or crazy things, weird stories, and then finally gets somewhere. and leaves the person who is asking him questions or the person debating him stuck with a huge list of options to go for, ultimately sometimes it can be stumping. >> yeah. it shouldn't be stumping. they should have a question and stay on it. was joe biden elected president of the united states? you know what he is going to say. he is going to lie. okay, wait, 63 federal judges

that said you're lying right plow. >> that's a moderator thing, right? >> that's a moderator thing. >> i've never seen it. >> then go on. wait a second, you have the united states supreme court that agreed. so you're right. he does the weave, and their eyes follow his hands around. he doesn't answer, and they let him get away with it. i've got to tell you, it is so frustrating watching. one moderator after another, one interviewer after another does not drill down. you've got to drill down. i hope the moderators will do that tonight. and not get distracted like everybody else has gotten distracted, and pretend that he is bob dole in 1996 and this is any other normal election, because it's not. >> it's not. >> it's just not. i mean, we started this show talking about charges of eating dogs. this is a different campaign.

>> it kas. >> cats! >> cats, dogs. dogs and cats living together. you know, claire, when i first got into politics, one of the best pieces of advice i got, and i got a lot of great advice, but one was, it's all about contrasts, joe. you're running against an older guy, it's all about contrast. everything is about a contrast. you don't drill down -- he said, he's older, he's slower, and you have to be younger, energetic. you have to be everywhere. you have to be aggressive. be polite, but show your energy. in this case, tonight, it seems to me that what kamala harris wants is rage versus joy, and she wants exhaustion versus energy. it's negative versus positive. that's an easy thing to do. if, as you say, she doesn't take

the bait on twitter with people saying, oh, you need to stick him with him, oh, you need to stick him with that, no. she needs to be joyful. she needs to be energetic. she needs to be -- you know, because this is showbiz, not a policy debate. go back to 1980, one of the most influential debates of, and people, what did they remember? ronald reagan's line, "there you go again." and we were watching, it did change the debate. you go, oh, wait a second, reagan is not a warmonger. in fact, he is laughing at the charge. reagan is not going to cut social security. in fact, this jimmy, old granddad is saying, come on. americans are saying, okay, i'm good with him. >> yeah. see, listen, it's going to be quite a contrast. just the visual is going to be acute. i have to tell ya, it's a little bit like fingernails on a

blackboard when we repeat donald trump's lie about the weave. there's no weave. there's no weave. >> none. >> why are we acting like this guy has a plan on when he does all this stuff? >> we're not. we're mocking the weave. >> but a lot of people are not mocking the weave. >> i know. >> they're actually buying into it. i'm from a place where people -- >> not mocking the weave. >> oh, i'm telling ya, people are not mocking the weave. you run into people at the lake of the ozarks, they'll tell you he knows exactly what he is doing. they completely buy into his dottering idiocy is somehow planned, and if he does it tonight, i do think the very few voters that are undecided, if they're watching, they'll notice that he can't keep a thread. he will go off the topic because he always does when he gets

uncomfortable. he will be uncomfortable tonight. i think people will see that. i don't think he's going to handle well -- he didn't handle hillary that well. you know, he did stupid stuff on the debate stage that made him seem more aggressive, but he didn't do -- people forget how well she did against him in those debates. i guarantee you, he hasn't forgotten. >> mm-hmm. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," as former president trump steps up his threats to imprison anyone who cheats in the election, our next guest is taking a look at the fight to protect voting rights. "new york times" best selling author michael eric dyson joins us with his new book. that's next on "morning joe." thanks to bob woodward, we learned they knew about it. when that was exposed, the vice president said, when asked, why

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the moment i met him i knew he was my soulmate. and learn how abbvie "soulmates." soulmate! [giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to t-mobile 5g home internet. and now his attention is spent elsewhere. but i'm thinking of her the whole time. that's so much worse. why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title. we have to stop the cheating. if we stop that cheating, if we don't let them cheat, i don't even have to campaign anymore.

we'll win by so much. in the meantime, too big to rig. >> donald trump in wisconsin on saturday promoting false claims of voter fraud again ahead of november's election. our next guest is examining the ongoing struggle to protect voting rights from the drafting of the constitution to the former president's attempts to undermine election results. joining us now, distinguished professor at the vanderbilt university, "new york times" bestselling author, dr. michael eric dyson. he is out today with a new book titled "represent, the unfinished fight for the vote." professor, always great to have you with us. congratulations on the book. >> thank you, my friend. >> incredibly timely, obviously, ahead of this election, and even tonight because of what we'll likely hear from donald trump about what he says happened and did not happen around the 2020 election, what he may be preparing his supporters for after this upcoming election. what strikes me reading the book is a lot of what we're seeing today in terms of the

disenfranchisement of this country, it's nothing new. you trace it back. >> think of the extraordinary events that occurred in american history where people have tried to rush over people's rights. their enfranchisement, ability to say what will happen in a democracy. democracy is about people power, and the people have to be involved. from the very beginning, when the founding fathers went, eh, we don't want everybody involved because they might do this, might do that, the very thing they were trying to avoid in european culture, in england, they ended up replicating to a degree here by saying women can't vote, people who don't own property can't vote. obviously, african american people can't vote. in the '80s, you have the red shirts riding rough shot against people trying to vote, intimidating them. denial of opportunity is nothing new, as well. >> dr. dyson, i really was anxious about this book particularly this time. i always called you the socrates

of black america. >> you're very kind, reverend. >> but your insight into the history of where we are and why this is so important. talk about that. because the voting, the empowerment of the vote, which back from the early days of the civil rights movement that translated into that, and on from where we went in the fight in the '80s with reverend jackson and barack obama, there is something a lot of people missed that your book brings back in this contemporary setting. this is not just donald trump, a one-off. this continues a tradition of disempowerment. >> i have to take rev with me to interpret the book for me. that through line is there. people fight for the right to vote. you know, women in new jersey could vote. interesting part of that constitution is they could do their thing, but then got wind of it, you know, couple decades later, began to reject the possibility of women voting. black people in certain places

could vote. black men. then they couldn't. then there were convergences. frederick douglass, elizabeth stanton. then there was a split in the movement because black men were getting the right to vote and white women weren't, so it caused consternation. but the fight for the right to vote has been from the very beginning of this nation. i'm sitting next to history in that sense. when we trace it back from frederick douglass and talk about what happened with the struggles there in the 19th century and the 20th century those making strides to vote, ida b. wells, name the roll call of people on the front line, making sure african american people, indigenous people, they had struggles, as well, immigrants coming to the nation. it is a passing of the baton to say it is never a given. you have to continually fight for the right to be able to

vote. >> i'm curious. i know fundamentally that older black women are foundational to any democrat winning any election in this country. >> right. >> period. >> mm-hmm. >> most reliable voters. the most margins for the democratic party. i also have seen, especially over the last 10, 15 years, a real hardening of cynicism, particularly among young black men about voting. >> right. >> speak to that and what can be done to reach young black men so they have the same sense of urgency that we see with older black women. >> right, right. it's a great point. i think black women have carried the baton as valiantly and as brilliantly as anyone might imagine. young black men feel disenfranchised, marginalized. disproportional numbers are going to prison, being on the edges of educational opportunity. the stigma of black masculinity.

you could be the fastest man in the nfl, driving a late model car, and the police right before your game can arrest you or stop you and throw you on the ground. one of your teammates try to intervene, right? that's what we see, the stigma, the lack of opportunities that translate into cynicism about, oh, i'm not going to vote. why vote in it makes no difference. or when a huckster comes along promising you something, like mr. trump, here's something i'm going to offer you, but hiding the fact that he is a bigot, a xenophobe, a nativist, and has no interest in fundamental democracy. to the young men, we have to say, your best future lies with people who will support you in every arena of o'life. >> what is your answer, especially given what's going on with donald trump, even trying to sow doubt in this next election. >> right. >> to a young minority voter who says, you know what, my vote

doesn't count. it probably won't even do anything at all. i'm not going to vote. >> that would be tragic. i'd say to them, look, that's what, quote, the powers that be who don't want you to vote want you to think. my vote doesn't count. i'll throw it away. it doesn't make a difference. i'm not even in a battleground state so who cares? well, every vote counts. i appreciate, you know, vice president kamala harris saying, i'm going to contest for these votes to the very bitter end. because not only does every vote count, but if we get people understanding that your power is what's at stake here, these people work for you, you don't work for them, they are the emissaries of your desire to have democracy strengthened. so in that sense, i think if we continue to tell that story to people, the cynicism, if it doesn't get at least diminished, will be held in check. >> the new book is entitled "represent, the unfinished fight for the vote." it's on sale now. dr. michael eric dyson, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thanks for having me.

>> thank you, professor. coming up, white house national security communications director john kirby, admiral john kirby will be our guest. plus, a conversation on a rock legend and the pursuit of musical perfection. just over 50 years ago, paul mccartney released "band on the run," his most successful post-beatles album. we're going to go through joe's new piece in "the atlantic" on how mccartney ran to the top. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪♪

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welcome back. 32 past the hour. republicans on the house foreign affairs committee are elis rele report on the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan in 2021. chairman mccaul of texas accuses the biden-harris administration of prioritizing the, quote, pop ticks of the withdrawal over the security of the u.s. personnel on the ground. however, democratic congressman gregory meeks of new york, the ranking member on that committee, released the minority report on the investigation. he notes, quote, "the republican majority has taken pains to avoid facts involving former president trump, including his

committing the united states to a full, date-specific withdrawal in a deal he negotiated with the taliban." joe, you know, the optics of that withdrawal for horrendous, but i don't think people understand the run-up to it. >> it is almost as if this report were political. let's bring in right now the white house national security communications adviser and assistant to the president, retired rear admiral john kirby. admiral, great to have you with us. i will say, what's so fascinating is the republicans, when they had written a report about this ever be, they talked about kamala harris two times. now, suddenly, she's at the center of it, right? hundreds of times, she's mentioned. yet -- which is ridiculous. yet, they somehow fail to mention that donald trump did support the release of a

thousand -- >> 5,000. >> 5,000 taliban convicts. after releasing them, he had a date certain that the united states was going to withdraw. of course, i saw nothing in this report about donald trump trying to get the taliban to come to camp david on 9/11, on the anniversary of the attack. none of that in there. now, i will say, i opposed the withdrawal in afghanistan. a lot of people of good faith did. but 60% of americans were ready for america to move on after 20 years of war, and joe biden did that. there was a tragedy because of the isis. but how do you respond to this report? >> well, the other thing that's not in the report is in october of 2020, president trump ordered the military to do a hasty withdrawal. he wanted the troops out christmas of 2020, two months hence. there was no significant plan here for doing the withdrawal in

a thoughtful, considerate way. president biden came into office, the taliban was at the strongest point they've been in years. the afghan government was at the weakest level they'd been in years because the afghan government had been ignored in the doha agreement. they weren't part of the discussion. >> underline that. donald trump undermined the afghanistan government. he cut them completely out of the negotiations. he just worked with the taliban. >> cut them out. to the degree where the former central command commander, general mckenzie, testified that there was a pernicious effect of this doha agreement, this withdrawal agreement that mr. trump put in place on the afghan national security forces as well as the afghan government. when the president came into office, this is what he inherited. two choices. either blow up the deal, go back into war with the taliban, which meant thousands and thousands of more troops in afghanistan and keep the war going, or observe the deal and the president was able to extend it. may 2021, which is what

mr. trump negotiated, he extended it into the late summer for the withdrawal, to give us more time to do it. then get us out of the war and end that war. >> katty? >> a couple areas where i don't know if it was a failure of the intel community or a failure of the department of defense, but i'd like to get your thoughts on that. one was was general milley didn't realize or didn't have the ability to realize that the afghan government would collapse as quickly as it did. he said that himself. he saw nothing. was that a failure of the intel community? the second was, why not keep it secured until after everybody was evacuated. you said that meant people making the trek out of there. if it had been secure, wouldn't it have been handled more securely? >> no. but let me take your first question. i'm sorry? >> was there a failure of intel when it came to the afghan

government and how quickly it fell. >> nobody saw the collapse coming as fast as it did. that includes people in the intelligence community. i think we would all agree that there were lots of factors that led to us not seeing it. we didn't understand fully how engrained these deals that the taliban were in in the western part of the country -- >> that's a problem, right? the fact you didn't see sit -- it's a problem. >> couple things. donald trump did undermine the government. there's a problem you didn't see. but you didn't see it, in part, actually because it was so much worse than we even expected. going back to 2009, joe biden said the afghan government was basically corrupt. he was enraged. i remember he threw down his napkin, got up from the table. i mean, in an odd way, the fact that it collapsed so quickly validated joe biden's distrust of the afghan government.

>> they were cutting deals, and i don't think anybody saw the collusion with the taliban out that far in the country. once you get momentum, and they got momentum, they started to fall faster and faster. general milley was right when he said no one saw the government falling in 11 days. that's across the intelligence community. did we miss factors in terms of intelligence? clearly. but no one saw it coming that fast. as for bagram, first of all, when mr. trump ordered a hasty withdrawal from afghanistan, but bagram was already on the list to close. he wanted everybody out. the go zero argument i've heard from the republicans is nonsense. that is exactly what mr. trump wanted. bagram was included. when you fast forward to the withdrawal, we took a look at this. the military commanders were asked for their opinion on this. they recommended to the president that you close bagram. by the way, do it quickly. it is a big, sprawling base. we had a total of 2,500 troops

in afghanistan. not all of them at bagram. to restore bagram and make it a place you can conduct an evacuation, you'd have to fly in 2,000 additional troops. it is a big, big base. the taliban already made it clear, you add more troops like that, you know, we're going to start attacking you. throughout that entire withdrawal, katty, there were no attacks by the taliban on the u.s. forces. certainly, isis posed a threat, no question about that. bagram would have been much more resource heavy to try to restore and use as an evacuation site. as i said yesterday, it's like 30 some odd kilometers north of kabul. if you're going to force all these evacuees to get to bagram to get out of afghanistan, they would have had a dangerous trek, which we would not have been able to protect them for. >> i want to ask you about two events that happened overnight. both pretty important events. one is in gaza. israeli strikes killed 40, wounded 60 in a humanitarian

zone. >> yeah. >> turkey has condemned it, called it a war crime. what is the administration's reactions to the reports? second thing i want to ask you about is a totally different theater, which is moscow. ukraine has sent 70 drones that reached the outskirts of moscow. this comes after the ground invasion. the drones traveled 270 miles from the ukrainian border to moscow. killed one woman. is the biden administration comfortable with this more aggressive posture from the ukrainians? do they fear it risks escalating the war there? >> first question, obviously, we saw these reports dealing with deep, deep concern. we'll be in touch with our israeli counter parts about what happened. they have a right to defend themselves against hamas. at the same time, they have a special obligation to do everything they can to minimize harm. this is deeply concerning, and we will be reaching out this morning to get more information about what happened. we've not been bashful at all at calling out the israelis when they haven't conducted these

strikes with precision and, you know, some discrimination about what they're hitting. on your second question, i'll let the ukrainians speak to their operations, particularly the operations they may be conducting inside russian territory. as you know, we don't encourage or enable attacks on russian soil using u.s. weapons. that policy hasn't changed. we are making sure, and you saw this last week, that they continue to have what they need to defend themselves, particularly on their own sovereign territory, which is still under attack by the russians. the russians still have the northeast of ukraine down to zaporizhzhia. we have to make sure they have what they need. >> white house national security communications adviser and assistant to the president, retired rear admiral, john kirby. thank you so much. >> thank you, sir. >> of course, mika, all of these things, you look at the tragedy in gaza, you look at the tragedy

that continues in ukraine, the tragedy that happened with the loss of marines in afghanistan, it's a lot of really, really difficult decisions that any president makes. >> yeah. when i spoke earlier about the optics of the withdrawal, i was talking about the visuals of the airport, the rush to get out. of course, the reality was horrific, and we lost many of our own. but the point was, jonathan lemire, that a lot of the conditions were preset by the previous administration. that's getting lost in the conversation. >> yeah. this is a deal that was struck by then president trump. he was going to even have the taliban come to camp david on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. president biden, before he took office, also was critical of the u.s. presence in afghanistan. said he wanted the troops out. he agreed to stick with the trump plan but pushed back the timeline some. with the administration, there is acknowledgment the withdrawal itself could have gone better.

it's of note, though, this will be of topic tonight. the trump campaign has really in recent weeks, after the third anniversary of the withdrawal, has tried to make it an attack line on harris, highlighting her words, that she was the last person in the room, that biden -- with whom biden consulted before he gave the goahead. with harris, she will defend it and point to trump's criticism of the military, of those who have suffered. the missteps at arlington national cemetery in the last couple weeks. and reiterate that this was his plan. >> among the tragedies in this, including the death of 13 ma rea marines that day, is what happened to women in afghanistan who saw a window of change in years, arguably worse than it's ever been. women not able to use their voices in public. >> correct. coming up, vice president nominee jd vance says mike pence disagrees with donald trump on foreign policy, but not the

january 6th capitol attack. we'll show you the new remarks and how a republican house lawmaker can weigh in. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

♪ i am, i cried ♪ [ laughing ] ♪ i am, said i ♪ ♪ and i am lost and i can't ♪ punch buggy red. ♪ even say why ♪ ♪ i am, i said ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ band on the run ♪

it marked one of the greatest comebacks in rock history a little over 50 years ago. paul mccartney and wings released the album, "band on the run," in the fall of 1973. hailed by critics as a masterpiece, it was mccaccartne fifth solo album after leaving the beatles, and went on to sell more than 8 million copies, making it one of the decade's biggest sellers. to this day, it remains mccartney's most successful album and the most celebrated of his post beatles work. this morning, joe has a new piece in "the in the atlantic entitled how paul mccartney ran to the top, and in it he shares the details about the fascinating back story of how the album came to be. in the article, joe writes in

part, quote, it's hard to fathom mccartney, a megastar, who has charted more number one songs than any other artist and still packs the world's largest concert venues six decades after the roar of beatlemania receded, finding himself lost in the musical wilderness. but in the years following the beatles' breakup in 1970s, the group's defactdefacto leader su from sagging album sales, the scorn of critics, and the open and began searching for an exotic location where he could find inspiration by absorbing the atmosphere and taking it in the climate. the location he chose was agos, nigeria, but the experience was full of drama. quote, he and linda were attacked by a gang of thieves who told their demo tapes and

notes intended to guide the making of their album. studio hands said they were lucky to have escaped with their lives. mccarty, linda, and denny lane made it back to london and put the finishing touches on the studios. band on the run was released november 30, 1973. so, joe, the story is amazing. i hadn't heard that one. you told me a lot of beatles stories given your, i don't know, slight obsession. >> yeah, the obsession. the people who know more about it, peter from "the new york times," jim, and contributing editor for "rolling stone" rob sheffield. rob, there is a quote, you know, it's so hard to explain to people that paul mccartney was ever in the musical wilderness since he had, like, 29, been a part of 29 number one hits like

the rolling stones had six, to put it in perspective. he is still selling out concerts. he was in australia, new zealand, going across south america. people, it's hard to believe it, but there is a quote that has always stuck out to me to get into paul mccartney's mindset. his back was against the wall. linda a described her husband's mindset going into the recording sessions as a bleak make or break mission. either i give up and cut my throat or i get my magic back. he had been trashed by the critics, trashed by his former bandmates, considered washed up and artistically dead and he goes to lagos, almost loses his life, gets rushed to the hospital and he comes back to london, well, with a rock classic. his biggest selling album, the biggest selling album of any beatle post-beatles.

>> yeah. he was a driven man. he had so much to prove after the beatles. like you said, hard to believe that he would ever feel such a need to prove himself to people. he was always so competitive with the other beatles. he was used to having that competition. and he still is feeling that competition. he is still driven t that's why he will be on the road the rest of this year. >> yeah, jim, so here are some of the things that john lennon said about paul mccartney right after the breakup. and he said mccartney's first album was rubbish. compared him to engelbert humperdinck. watching the movie made lennon feel sick. claimed his fellow bandmates were fed up and accused mccartney of leading the group in circles and causing the disintegration. even wrote, how do you sleep? a pretty face may last a year or two. in the end, they will see what you can do.

>> yeah, lennon gave that interview to "rolling stone" magazine, which with lennon would often slag mccartney's music and reputation. with band on the run, "rolling stone" came through with a positive review and said it was the best thing by any solo beatle since plastic ono band. and even though mccartney's back was end the wall, band on the run is kind of this blast of joy. it's optimistic. it conveys a feeling of well being, which is something that mccartney more than other songwriters is able to do without being sappy. the album has rockers on it like jet and let me roll it, and let me roll it has a very harsh guitar sound that mccartney plays himself and that song is in the lennon style and i think it was kind of an olive branch

to lennon because by the end of 1974 they were ves close again and talking about working together. >> and he ended it with -- with a lennon-esque primal scream, which made critics go crazy. he was saying, i can do lennon better than lennon. that's how competitive he was. jim, you and i are -- and this is -- you know, everybody is a beatles fan and obsessed about the beatles. but we obsess also equally about wings. i wouldn't to say something about wings that's not in the article. linda, who admitted she was still learning how to play keyboards at the time of the album, turns in some of the best work. but also that distinct wings sound that had nine number one hits and sold just millions of albums really came together, including, yes, linda's vocals,

paul's vocals, and denny vocals. >> mccartney can sing all different kinds of ways. linda has a voice with no-no bravado, sounds almost amateurish. you can hear it on songs on band on the run like bluebird and denny lane, a gravelly voice, a really nice vocal blend that was the basis of a lot of lits through the '70s. >> one of the interesting aspects of joe's piece is the appearance throughout the piece of jon landau as a critic of band on the run and mccartney. describe who he was then and is today and has been for quite some time. >> old friend, jon landau. a music journalist back then. a critic. became a mogul. sad to see him take the step

down. bruce springsteen's manager, maybe the most manager in all of rock and roll history. someone who put his love for music always very seriously and saw paul mccartney's original solo work as a retreat from what the beatles could do. and band on the run convinced everybody who had da doubts about paul. after this nobody doubted paul could rock again. after jet, david bowie, you're good, i will do the best david bowie song ever, and his faux bowey is just as great. >> so this is "rolling stone" dismissed mccartney's first album as second rate and tawdry propaganda. the low point in the decomposition of '60s rock and said it was so incredibly inconsequential and irrelevant that it was not even worth

hating. of course, i will only finish up by saying, jim, when it was re-released in 2012, pitchfork, which was sort of music -- a bible then, said that the album -- that album had invented new approach to pop music. and role stone, which i love and read, grudgingly placed it only the greatest albums of all time list after that review 50 years earlier. >> yeah, that album's reputation has come full circle. even mika. >> you see the look in my eyes. this article is in the atlantic. joe, wonderful job. now whatly going to do with your time? >> there is really nothing to do. no news. it's been a slow news week. so i said i am going to write about paul mccartney. >> i love the piece.

jim and rob, thank you both very much. >> and mika, i have to say you are also the best editor ever because the end of the piece i had about three, four, five more paragraphs to go. i read it up to the endpoint and you said stop there. >> yes. >> that's what she always says. >> you can stop there right now, too. >> see? she did it again. >> i have great advice. all right. joe's piece, how paul mccartney ran to the top, is online now at the atlantic.com. ahead, we will look at the preparations now underway for tonight's presidential debate in philadelphia. plus, donald trump's niece, mary trump, a guest to discuss her new book with the title who could ever love you, a family memoir. we're back in one minute. one mie

go to care.com now. ray, when the bank opens in the morning, they will foreclose. >> people will come, ray. >> you're broke, ray. you sell now or you lose everything. >> the one constant through all the years, ray, has been baseball. america has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. it's been rebuilt and erased again but baseball marks the time. this field, this game is a part of our past, ray. it reminds us of all that once was good and could be again. oh, people will come, ray.

people will most definitely come. >> my goodness. one of the many iconic moments from james earl jones' legendary career. he died jed at the age of 93. we will be looking at that legacy. right now around this set and around homes across america, men are weeping and women next to them are going, i don't get it. he is walking out of corn fields? but i will tell you, willie geist, long after we are all gone, they will, people will be looking at that scene. as long as baseball is played, the same reaction. the same reaction. what an incredible actor. what an incredible life. >> i watched that monologue this morning. from start to finish, the tension in that scene when costner is told he needs to sell the farm and then james earl jones stands up with the way he

always commands a screen or stage or wherever he has been with his face or his voice even and says, no, they will come, ray, they will come, and convinces him to hang on and the dream continues there. my gosh. we will get into it a little deeper. darth vader, he was the voice of darth vader. "the lion king." "coming to america." >> come on. >> blocks from here there is a theater names after james earl jones. he had an incredible stage career, won three tonys going back to the 1950s. so he it did all the big flashy stuff like darth vader, but one of the most highly respected actors on the stage or screen who has ever lived. >> incredible. and you brought "the lion king," simba, you are more than you have become. it loops in my mind every day, going, come on, joe, be better! anyway, mika, just in case you didn't understand that scene

from "lion king" king, it makes sense when a young ballplayer walks off the field, turns into burt lancaster and saves a little girl's life. we will have to watch that this weekend. >> thank you. meanwhile, it's a big day politically with first and possibly only debate between vice president kamala harris and donald trump. tonight in philadelphia, we will preview that show crown and go through the latest polling from states which could decide november's election. also ahead, we will explain the false claims about migrants and pets -- >> wait, wait, wait. hold on a second. >> this is -- i mean, i don't even know where to begin. >> it used to be, i think, in 2018, 2020, the lie about immigrants and illegal immigrants, they were bringing

leprosy to america, which of course they were not. now it is that they are eating your dogs. >> cats. >> they are coming to america and eating the cats. >> don't live in ohio with a cat because it might get eaton. >> little mittens is going to be dinner. >> it's sweeping the country. it's a terrible, terrible -- this is absolutely ridiculous. scraping the bottom of the barrel. and j.d. vance is being amplifying this and amplifying -- apparently this has gone crazy on the right wing social media sites. the allegation -- this comes with a public health warning. immigrants are not eating your cats. >> yes. >> but the story is that haitian immigrants are eating cats. >> this is how things changed, sam. there always been -- >> this is social media. this is the craziness of the nelt. >> the craziness is the internet but also that you have people on the presidential ticket actually spreading these lies. now j.d. vance running around

going, they are eating your cats. >> yeah. i mean -- >> what is this guy's obsession about cats? >> cats. >> ate some, likes them, trying to save them. i don't get it. like, i think inflation -- >> maybe too many women like cats rather than j.d. vance? >> oh? >> so now he is the great protector of cats? >> makes sense. yeah, they all have microphones, huge platforms of their own. used to be they call a press conference to spread a lie. in this case in succession there are ten official accounts or unofficial accounts, trump campaign, amplified this completely manufactured -- sorry -- >> a complete lie. another complete lie, jonathan lemire, that the season is over for boston red sox. >> oh, my. >> we continue to fail up. we continue to lose. we continue to gain on the

minnesota twins. the only team in baseball worse than the red sox right now. >> the red sox have done their best to foul out of this playoff race. >> we're trying. we are really giving it all our. >> the twins won't let us. we are still in it somehow. you can see we are three games back. we are tied with the tigers and mariners. a three-way tie there. three back against the twins, you know, twins and royals and, you know, we did the yankees, sadly, willie, a favor by beating the orioles, which allowed them to extend their lead. somehow the dream will not die. >> the yankees have been middling the last month or so, a little help from the red sox, yankees up a game and a half now. the red sox three games out. when you say they are dead, they watch "morning joe," they hear, they put up on the bulletin board in the clubhouse and win again. >> quotes. >> also with us, we have the president of the national action

network and host of msnbc's "politicsnation" reverend al sharpton. so ahead of tonight's debate, a slew of new polls finds a tight race for the white house across a number of battleground states. according to the latest morning consult survey, donald trump is up two points in both arizona and florida. the former president and kamala harris are tied in georgia while the vice president is up three points in michigan. the pair are tied in nevada and north carolina while harris is up three points in pennsylvania and wisconsin. all of these polls fall within the margin of error. of course, polls are polls, joe. they are kind of a snapshot. but, wow, quite a tight race. >> snapshot. again we think "the new york times" sienna poll, providing democrats their monthly freakout. psychiatrists up and down fifth avenue had to double down on

meds these last couple of days. they thank them for that. here we have polls that actually now -- i mean, katty, none of it is good news for donald trump. you he is up two in arizona. a state they thought they put away. down two in florida. this could be an outlier except for the fact that we keep seeing polls that show harris down four points. i have seen three points, four points, now two points in florida. florida is a competitive race. democrats got a false/positive a couple of years ago when the democratic party just did not compete in the governor's race against desantis. we will see. biden lost it by 3.5 points. >> this is a little bit close early. you look tied in georgia. that's a race that trump people said they put away months ago. states they thought were put away. and then you go up to the

industrial midwest states. all ties all within the mach of air tilting towards harris up three in the three big states. >> so the up in pennsylvania is interesting for harris. that's the one worth watching to see whether that is an -- how much that reflects what's happening in pennsylvania. the pattern from florida, i don't know. we have heard that donald trump is spending money in the west palm beach area. i thought that was because he wanted to see the ads from mar-a-lago, his friends to see the ads from mar-a-lago. now i am wondering we do need to spend money in florida. all of this, i mean, points to the fact that, yes, it's tight and the trump campaign now has to spend in some of those states that it thought it put away. kamala harris at the moment has the benefit of resources. she can afford to spend in all of these states and is doing so and has expanded the ground game

she inherited from joe biden. so the money helps are there. and trump has to spread his resources a little thinner. >> reverend al, spread across seven states. in effect, the seven states are tied. if kamala harris is competitive in nevada and arizona and florida, in georgia, in north carolina, that is money that's going to be spread out across four, five, six states, and money that's not going into michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania, the three states that really at the end of the day make the biggest difference. >> and those states are the states that he probably needed more than any other time to spend money on, but now he has to spread that money around, and his biggest problem is he has no real infrastructure in those states. a lot of people are not looking at, is that kamala harris and the dnc? seems to have built

infrastructure in all these states which you need to get out early voting, which you need to get out voting. donald trump is all about donald trump. it's driven by the candidate kind of race in terms of their strategy with no real infrastructure and organization on the ground, particularly in areas that they are not already strong. so not having the money to build and front an infrastructure in those states is also going to come back to haunt them, i believe, on election day. >> well, and, you know, willie, the biden -- i almost said the biden team. the harris team as well as the trump team have basically admitted tie goes to harris because if these states are truly tied going into the election when the voting starts all the way through election day, donald trump does not have the ground game. he just doesn't. he is actually subbed it out to third faerts in many cases and harris has been spending the hundreds of millions of dollars not only that she raised and joe

biden raised before her on building up that ground game that shapes elections in close races. >> yeah, the biden campaign before he stepped aside all right built that with the campaign chair and then the harris campaign has been able to plug into that all while raising half a billion dollars on top of it. so you're right. they have that infrastructure. let's remember, yes, these are within the margin of error. where this race was before kamala harris came onboard, which is to say and we talk to many of the same people around the campaign who privately conceded that north carolina, probably nevada, arizona and maybe even georgia, they were going to let those go, effectively. they would fight for them, but not counting on them. they had to win the three blue wall state. now those are in play. also pointing out places like arizona on the tickets, there is still the residue of donald trump and a candidate for? senate in kari lake not doing

well, connected to duty, helping ruben gallego take a lead in the race, potentially helping kamala harris there. the gubernatorial candidate in north carolina is, what's the polite way of saying it? >> controversial. >> crazy. i was going to go a step further. >> weird. >> weird, okay. that could help kamala harris as well in north carolina. >> no question. a few states, abortion rights on the ballot, which is sort of such a winner for democrats since the dobbs decision of two years ago. and there is, you know, some variants in the polls. one we talked about earlier today, you know, harris up a couple, georgia down a couple in north carolina, vice versa that doesn't matter. the particulars are not important. the momentum and trends lines largely favoring harris and she has a significant advantage in ground game. talking to the republicans in the last 24 hours or so, a growing narrative of concern about how as joe said the trump campaign has farmed out a lot of

the blocking and tackling here. they formed out the ground game turnip operation. about these efforts to combat voter fraud. non-existent voter fraud for the most part, including claims that it's non-citizens voting. we know that's not the case. there has never been data to support that. that adds to the huge advantage democrats have. harris has so much money, she can spend less time fundraising and more time in the battleground states. >> ruben gallego the democrat in arizona, up eight points over kari lake. so with all that as a back-drop, hours away from tonight's presidential da debate between former president trump and vice president kamala harris. the showdown begins at 9:00 p.m. eastern in philadelphia at the national constitution center. this time this will be the first time the two have faced off on a debate stage against each other. it's also actually the first

time they have ever in person. no audience will be in the room. both sides agreed to the rules ahead of time. those include microphones only being on for the candidate whose turn it is to speak and muted when the time belongs to the other candidate. only the moderators will be allowed to ask questions. trump won a virtual coin toss and will give the final closing statement. closing statements per candidate. no opening statement. each candidate given two minutes to answer each question with a two-minute rebuttal. in addition, a minute for follow-up, clarification or response. candidates stand podiums for the debate. no perhaps or prewritten notes allowed on stage. each will be given a pen, pad, paper, and a bot of water. the campaign staff may not interact with the candidates during commercial breaks. ahead, vice president harris gave a radio interview yesterday saying she expects trump is going to lie tonight.

>> he plays with an old and tired playbook, right, where he -- there is no floor for him in terms of how low he will go. and we should be prepared for that. we. be plead for the fact that he is not burdened by telling the truth, and we should be prepared for the fact that he is probably going to speak a lot of untruth. he has a playbook that he has used in the past, be it, you know, his attacks on president obama or hillary clinton. >> so, that's kind of obvious. but i wonder looking at the rules that you put out there, willie, how far apart the candidates will be because one of the issues is if you cut the mic, but if the candidate can still hear each other, that could be distracting. and i think trump often uses that to his benefit.

he can bello at the candidate and distract them. >> these were the rules set when the harris campaign wanted to change it so donald trump's mic would be object. ultimately, went back to the rules -- >> if they can hear each other -- >> yeah. it's distracting. >> well, i can tell you, i am a thousand miles away from mika right now and she is whispering and distracting me. so it can be distracting. i hope there is a long enough distance between the two. >> it is funny. >> it is funny. >> there are so many. no. all right. so, katty, we are going to keep it in washington right now. so mika -- >> no whispering. >> about "the lion king.." >> "hunt for red october." >> was that not great? >> his role in that. >> oh, my gosh. we will be doing this all day. and his work -- >> come on. >> so anyway, so for harris

tonight, i think the first thing i would do, donald, thank you so much for your contribution, political contribution to 2014. i greatly appreciate it. i wouldn't be here without it. also, we know what donald trump's going to say. and people inside the campaign have already said that told others that ended -- the campaign prep, his go-to line is you and joe biden wrecked the border and you wrecked the economy. you wrecked the border and you wrecked the economy. no matter what she talks about, he is going to pivot back to those two things. so what's the harris strategy? >> so what they would like to do is get him to behave like he did in that dumpster fire of of a debate in 2020 where he went off the rails with joe biden -- >> the roids debate? >> yeah. he had covid and he couldn't stop himself and he interrupted -- it was the first trumpian version of himself.

that's where they want to get to. he can be disciplined for 90 minutes. they have to try to break that down. the world old. i wouldn't surprised if that comes up quite a lot. old story, old ideas. small, you know, small ideas. small person. that could come up quite a lot. i am hearing that. so little words that might trigger him, direct attacks on him to try to get under his skin. they have to get him to be trump because if it ends up being a debate purely on him being able to say you wrecked the economy and you wrecked the border, that is not a win for her. she needs -- it has to be about him behaving badly as much as about her -- of course, she will be -- >> i agree with the old versus new thing, which they have been going for. if you noticed a lot of messaging that they are putting out, the harris campaign, it's about you care for yourself, you want to -- you are selfish, all you care about is yourself, you want a tax cut for pitch e rich

people like yourself. we he need to go forward with a middle class agenda. and i think in this case the campaign is going to try to keep it very substantive and look and position her as more of the populist and take away some of that -- some of what he tries to present to the public. that will could rattle him i suppose. i think that's what they want, the contrast of we are looking forward. we realize costs are actual -- our plan does it, your plan will not, your plan is to reward corporate interests and wealthy donors and make that the sort of -- >> it's made it harder to be able to rely on him to be the bad version. >> exactly. then you try to play -- >> yeah. and but mika, obviously, a lot of pivots towards freedom and what donald trump is trying to take away from you. he wants to take away your right, women's rights to make a decision. he wants to take away your health care. he promised to do that. he wants to take away your

money. he wants to give it to billionaires, the greatest income ith us we focus on working class, middle class, small business owners, experience and we have a tax plan that does that. i mean, there is a -- a lot of good contrasts here. >> yeah. and another contrast he is a felon and a lot of people who worked in his administration are convicted of crimes. i mean, just a side -- >> of course, a prosecute ir. and that will be front and center for part of it. on the mics, one think they considered if trump starts talking and trying to distract her, she will turn to the audience and say you may not be able to hear him but donald trump is saying xyz thinking that might prompt abc to turn on his microphone which -- >> whose idea -- >> those are the ground rules from the biden/trump negotiations heading into june. harris' team tried to change that. trump said, no, let's keep it. abc said we will stick with the rules that were established.

that's why that's happening tonight. there may be ways around it. i think this also, there will be a moment for the vice president to reintroduce herself to the american people. we saw polls over the weekend, we don't know much about her. we are learning her policies. this is our opportunity to fill in the gaps. it should be said, now the contrast of these two candidates on stage. now donald trump is the quote old guy in the match. >> he is the old guy. i think she must show a different contrast. she must show what many of us that have gotten to know her down through the years, and i have known her 20 t 25 years, i have known him 40, the contrast, in my opinion, she's got to show she can handle donald trump so she can show she can handle putin and xi and those that she would have to handle on an international level as president. at the same time, she

understands the average american. she called me sometimes during facetime while she was preparing dinner and she says, i know the price of groceries. i cook for my family, even when i was vice president. when is the last time are you have been to a grocery store, mr. trump? when is the last time you helped prepare pa meal? and i think that that she needs to be able to show the broad width of her experience that i can handle global dictators because i am looking at one would-be dictator and i can understand what it means to stand in line at a grocery store and the prices are going up, which is why we tried to fight to bring inflation down. if she can show that, which he cannot show either. he has love letters with dictators and he wouldn't know a grocery store if they put one in trump tower. >> i am laughing at the idea of donald trump pushing a cart through a kroger. bet that's never happened. how much things have changed since the june debate with joe

biden, is donald trump too old? >> wow. >> given his recent ramblings when talking about using tariffs, which would make things cost more for consumers in the united states to pay for childcare, that clip that, obviously, went viral. coming up ahead of the debate, former president trump is still suggesting democrats could change the top of the ticket, floating the idea that president biden could re-enter the race. okay. also this morning, the latest from overseas as ukraine launches a massive drone assault across russia. and the princess of wales, kate middleton, has completed chemotherapy treatment. we will look at what she is saying about her health. you're watching "morning joe." we are back in 90 seconds.

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the l been incredibly tough for us as a family. life as you know it can change in an instant and we have had to find a way to navigate the stormy waters. >> the princess of wales, kate middleton, says she has completed chemotherapy treatment and in that video message that was posted on social media kate revealed she will undertake a light schedule for the remainder of the year. she described her cancer journey as complex, scary and unpredictable and is focused on staying cancer free. she thanked her supporters for the well wishes she and fer

family received s she certainly has not always abrot britain but across the world. >> what she has done by speaking out, so unusual, this video must be unusual for the royal family, too, the fact that she spoke out, the king spoke out about his prostate cancer has been a public service announcement for brits. you hear it in the video where, i mean, it's kind of sort of hollywoodish mini movie video, which is a bit strange for brits. we don't do that thing very often, especially out of the royal family. >> stiff upper lip and all that stuff. >> yes, not that. there is some of that -- you know, she talks to other cancer survivors and i think the fact that she has done that openly has been really helpful. seen as being very helpful in the uk. >> willie, that will be very moving for a lot of people that are struggling with cancer and the fact that she said she understands what they are going through and she is going to stay with them and keep fighting. >> yeah, someone that

high-profile and well known giving something to a voice that has touched all of our families. a stre important in the uk, being so outspoken. incredible woman. incredibly strong. glad to hear she is doing well. time for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. for the first time in years, u.s. and chinese military commanders spoke directly last night over the phone. it comes as both countries look to rebuild military ties in an effort to avoid conflict. the white house called the conversation constructive and respectful. placing a heavy focus on beijing's increasingly brazen claims to a huge portion of the south china sea. justice kagan is doubling down on her push for an ethics code on the u.s. supreme court. it follows a series of reports about undisclosed gifts to some of her colleagues and private

effort to influence the justices. those calling for reforms have been advocating for an external enforcement mechanism that could be overseen by retired or experienced judges. apple's new iphone comes with built-in artificial intelligence. the company's latest device unveiled yesterday will be able to sort messages, offer writing suggestions, and use a more capable virtual assistant. the business has sputtered in recent years as iphone users have held on to their phones or longer. the new models will be available starting september 20th. and just a short time ago, four private astronauts blasted off from the kennedy space center in florida on a five-day mission aboard a spacex rocket. the crew is scheduled to take part in the first spacewalk conduct the by non-professional astronauts and will travel further from earth than anyone

since nasa's moon landing more than 50 years ago. coming up, a new family memoir by an author with the last name trump. the ex-president's niece mary joins us with her candidate account of a family torn apart by what she calls the relentless drive for money and power. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya provides tools that help you make the right investment and benefit choices. so you can reach today's financial goals and look forward to a more confident future. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected. ♪♪ with fastsigns, signage that gets you noticed turns hot lots into homes.

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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ i got a song i ain't got no melody ♪♪ >> the republicans in recent days have been amplifying false claims about migrants eating

pets and wildlife. disinformation began spreading on social media over the weekend fueled by a fourth man story that appeared to come from a facebook group in springfield, ohio. [ laughter ] >> what's wrong with these people? >> on facebook? a random person in this local group posted their neighbor's daughter's friend had lost her cat claiming haitians used the petifore food. a screen shot was shared on x by a conservative pundit, racking up 3 million views in 24 hours. the false claim spread by other prominent supporters of donald trump including elon musk. >> this is why it was trending yesterday. >> he amplified this as he stated as a matter of fact. also, senator ted cruz -- >> oh, fan. >> and republican congressman jim jordan of ohio. this is congressional leadership amplifying this. and then trump's running mate, j.d. vance, posted yesterday about haitian immigrants calling them illegal and echoing the

false claims about pets being abducted and eaton. i'm not making this up. the springfield, ohio, police said there are no credible reports of haitian immigrants harming pets. the city said the haitians are in the united states legally under a humanitarian program. >> and members of the trump family were tweeting this. look, look what's happening. you have to vote for donald trump. >> to joe's point, this is the kind of stuff that not that long ago would pop up in these dark strange corners of the internet and be snuffed out so the mouth breathers could talk about it among themselves. now you have got elon musk and j.d. vance amplifying something clearly made up. "the washington post" has a long piece debunking this. the photograph isn't from springfield. the person is not haitian, on and on. >> well, and think i think the

danger is to allow us to continue to mainstream stuff that used to just be looked at as some craziness on the outside of any serious consideration of what's going on. and don't miss the racial angle here. haitians. >> yes, illegal. >> and j.d. vance particularly zeroing in on haitian immigrants. and i think that this goes to, you know, blacks are cannibals, we eat each other, it plays into that history of racism, which is part of what donald trump appealed to since charlottesville, birtherism. when you hear kamala harris saying that's part of the old playbook of race. not just immigrants. haitian immigrants eating your pets, eating your animals. you know they are can bulls and we can't miss that. >> it's about race. it's about other. it's about immigration. it's about all these scare

tactics. we have seen it in other trump campaign, you know, propaganda they put out there where they suggested, like, you want this america or this america and they show a city, you know, ravaged by crime and the faces are non-white versus, like, the perfect -- like suburban setting with white people. that's what the trump campaign is leaning heavily to on as he faces a non-white opponent. >> and, joe, there used to be a floor or a barrier where certain people would not amplify something that is untrue. used to be, you know, the world's richest or second or third richest man who is an important figure in their culture, our world, wouldn't amplify this, and certainly a presidential ticket would not amplify it. but those days apparently are gone. >> long gone. and, you know, again, as we said, this happens every two years. preposterous claims. caravans coming at election time. donald trump sending troops down

to the border and like 2018 thinking it would help him politically. it didn't. it kept -- it kept people in the military away from their families and away from their bases through thanksgiving. but, you know, before it was left. now they are talking about eating pets. and, i mean, it's just all a lie. you know, they are not -- these people, as the town said, they are not illegal immigrants. they are here legally. >> here is a few good important facts here. one is springfield, ohio, a town where we have seen an influx of haitian migrants coming from the south because jobs are come being back to springfield, ohio, prospering under biden. all these people are coming to the small town. it's been disrupted for social services, for instance. government officials are trying to figure out what to do with the school and policing. second thing, there was one cat-eating incident in canton, ohio, 130 miles away, not

involving a haitian immigrant. the third thing anyone who spent time in haiti, i have, and with haitian-americans knows this is a constant thing, a racist struggle about haitian. they are witch doctors, primitives, they are animals, they are dangerous. the difference in the past warnings about caravans, for instance, the people were not here already. in this case the haitian migrants are here. so j.d. vance, trump's campaign and others are putting a spotlight on a community, a fairly vulnerable community in ohio, and they are telling the supporters look at these people. they are here and not only taking your jobs, taking your pets and eating them. it's not hard to see a few steps down the road that leads to something bad. coming up, what is donald trump's effect on down ballot republicans? we will speak with one of them when congress mike lawler of new york joins the discussion. a preview of his race and much more when "morning joe" comes right back.

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governor reagan, as a matter fact, began his political career campaigning armed this nation against medicare. now we have an opportunity to move to a national health insurance with an emphasis on the prevention of disease. an emphasis on outpatient care, not in-patient care, emphasis on holding down the cost of hospital care for those who are ill. these are the kind of elements of a national health insurance important to the american people. governor reagan again typically is against such a proposal. >> governor? >> there you go again. >> that was then-california governor ronald reagan in 1980

in the debate against president jimmy cart erlt. with that response, reagan undercut koorter's attack even though reagan this said medicare would lead to a total loss of freedom in america. the exchange is one of the many consequential moments discussed in the new book entitled the highest calling, conversations on the american presidency and its author david rubenstein joins us now. he served as deputy assistant 30 president cart ter for domestic policy and chairman of the private equity firm the carlyle group. this looks amazing. i jumped to the pages my dad are in, checking it out in. >> i didn't want -- realize you would bring back that debate. the famous line reagan game. he wasn't telling the truth. reagan said to carter, there you go again. what carter said was accurate, reagan opposed medicare.

>> talk about the highest calling, why you set out to write the book. the timing seems quite good. >> i worked in the white house as young man. my hair was darker and i was a little thin on the other hand i worked with your father as well. i have spent time in washington the last 30 plus years since i left the white house and gotten to know some people and i know scholars who wrote about presidents and thought it would be interesting to interview the scholars and the presidents. i interviewed some of the living president, including president biden and president trump, former president trump. and i wanted to remind people about the importance of voting. i want people to know the presidents and the candidates and vote. we have 80 million people in the country who are eligible to vote who don't vote. last time we had about 160 million people vote but we had 80 million people who could have vote but didn't. >> we like that you bring orioles energy to the set with your black and orange tie.

yankees and orioles. well represented this morning. you mentioned the interviews with president biden and former president trump. i am curious some of your reflections given what we will see tonight about donald trump. said he had no regrets, talked about it being a lonely job. what else did you glean from that conversation? >> president trump gave me the interview. i known him for a while. he gave me the interview before a trial that morning. and so i spent an hour on the phone with him. i wasn't physically with him at that time. and i didn't think he is a person that has a lot of regrets. he is not a person who looks back and says i am sorry i i'm . that's just not his style. he's obviously committed to what he believes in. underestimating him is a mistake. i think it would be a mistake to underestimate him now.

a "new york times" poll showed he's technically one point ahead. so it's going to be a very close election one way or the other. >> these are such disparate characters here. are there any through lines that you gleaned? are there any consistencies that you've seen? >> ambition is one. nobody tries to be president because they don't want tok president. they get there generally trying to get there. they are smart, hardworking, focused on what they believe in. i think many of these people have a level of ambition that most of us don't really recognize. out of 330 million americans, to say i'm the most qualified to be president of the united states is a daunting thing. in many ways i've said tongue in

cheek over the years private equity is the highest calling. >> do you find in your study that there are different types of leaders, some that have a vision for the world and some just driven by ambition? do you go into that in the book, the difference between what motivated the presidents you talked about? >> they're all motivated because they believe they have the ability to do somewhat no one else can do, lead the country. they all have a certain view they can do something that nobody else can do. they all are leaders. they want to make the country better. i think what i'm trying to do in the book is say read about these presidents, learn about them, because if you're going to make an informed decision, you learn

about the candidates. i'm trying to get people to vote and vote gently. read about the candidates. make sure you know what you're doing when you go to vote. coming, ending wars is harder than starting them. that's part of a scathing new report from republicans on the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. peter baker joins us with his latest piece in the "new york times" when "morning joe" comes right back. the "new york times" when "morning joe" comes right back

coming up, the chairman of the dnc jaime harrison is standing by. he'll preview the party's message as kamala harris goes toe to toe tonight with donald trump. that conversation straight ahead on "morning joe." ion straight ad on "morning joe." in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems

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heading into the debate, harris has picked up tons of support including one surprising

endorsement, because on friday dick cheney said he will vote for kamala harris. well -- [ applause ] >> well, i'll be. when i heard that news, you could have nothinged me over with a shotgun to the face. cheney announced his decision in a statement that read in part "we each have a duty to put country above partisanship." george w. bush released his own statement, a watercolor of a pomeranan. vice president kamala harris and former president donald trump are gearing up for

tonight's high-stakes presidential debate. as new polls show, the race remains tight. peter alexander has the latest from philadelphia. >> reporter: just hours from now, the first and maybe only presidential debate between vice president harris and former president donald trump. the face-off also notably the only two times the rivals have met. trump skipped the inauguration where they would have all been together. harris arriving in philadelphia monday after a series of mock debate sessions, complete with a stage and tv lighting according to campaign sources. sources also tell nbc news harris and her team are focusing on ways to needle trump to provoke him and that harris has studied past trump debate clips like those where he lashed out at hillary clinton in 2016. >> such a nasty woman. >> reporter: and repeatedly interrupted joe biden four years later. >> vote and let your senators

know how strongly you feel. vote now. make sure you, in fact, let people know. >> why won't you answer that question? >> would you shut up, man. >> reporter: tonight the rules say the mics will be muted when it's not a candidate's turn to speak. >> we should be prepared by the fact that he is not burdened by the truth. >> reporter: less formal debate prep for the former president. among those advising him tulsi gabbard. now some of trump's allies urging him to focus on policy. his rival turned supporter nikki haley delivering this warning. >> donald trump and jd vance need to change the way they speak about women. you don't need to talk about intelligence or looks or anything else. just focus on the policies. >> reporter: tonight's debate

punctuates a frenetic stretch that ultimately forced president biden's exit from the race. >> we finally beat medicare. >> reporter: among trump's priorities, to tie harris to biden. and with the polls neck and neck, tonight poses what could be the last major shakeup in this race. >> that's nbc's peter alexander with that report. we just -- i was just talking about how, mika, when we woke up on sunday morning, i woke up before you and i saw the nbc news sienna poll. because i know you're a catastrophizer, "new york times" sienna poll. i said to mika, you know, it's bad news but it's also good news, mika, bad news because

democrats are going to melt down, good news because democrats are going to melt down and they're going to work harder. i've got to say you took that in stride. >> yeah. thanks. >> you took that poll in stride this time, no kickboxing, no getting sledge hammers and going through walls. you did pretty well there. >> okay. it's true. kamala harris is well aware that donald trump is not burdened by the normal boundaries of u.s. citizens who take part in politics, and that would be the truth. and this is where he poses a problem with anybody he debates, he doesn't tell the truth. the moderators don't correct him. he runs over moderators.

they don't do anything in terms of what disinformation crosses their air waves. they're just happy to as you were -- survive the next question. that's why i would never moderate a debate, because i would literally stop him at every lie, as would you. it is allowed on air waves of previous debates and town halls. he calls it the weave. it's the litany of lies. it's the litany of lies that he puts out there. anybody talking to him is so distracted, including someone he might be debating, that it is impossible to have a conversation or what a debate is supposed to be with him, because he's not burdened by the truth. are you glad you asked? [ laughter ] >> i was actually talking about the "new york times" sienna poll, dear, but i'm glad you said what you just said.

>> it's a very difficult thing to do, to debate donald trump. >> it is. but then again, it's not. i'll tell you why it's not. because he tries to distract. he's a constant -- he's constantly trying to distract. he's constantly trying to change the subject. he wants to talk about anything that will stop him from talking about policy, because he doesn't know policy. he's never known policy. he never will know policy. that child care answer, the most shocking thing about the child care answer is that more people don't press him on policy because he's ill equipped to talk about it, more so than any other politician. >> he took so long with that child care answer -- and this is what he does. he takes so long with his weave, litany of lies, stupidity and nonsensical clusters of words, word salad, he takes so long

with that they have to move onto the next. i would have loved to have heard a follow-up. sir, what specific legislation would you approve and support to pay for child care? i need the answer to the question. everybody be quiet. i'm just asking for the answer to that question. no, sir you're not answering the question. that's not the question, sir. i'm asking you about child care. >> that would be correct. i've got to say, because a lot of people say, joe, what was the highlight of your debate experience when you were in politics. we're like at airports and red sox games and people ask those questions, right? no, they never ask the question, but let me tell you anyway. i was debating a candidate and i said, i hear you talking about you want to balance the budget. i've listed all the things i'm

willing to do. name one thing you're willing to do, just one program, just cut one program, i don't care. my opponent went on this wild -- you know, did the weave, did not want to answer the question. then she asked me a question. second question i said, my second question is my first question, name one program. this went on through three questions. i was given three questions. it was the most effective thing i could have done, because they kept going back. instead of being distracted by the weave, what does kamala harris want to prove tonight? stay on mission. he's going to try to distract. he's going to try to disrupt. but can she focus on what's her goal and not let him distract her. >> some of that might be to do with staging. how far away is he? although his microphone is

turned off and the audience won't hear it, will she be able to hear it? >> again, don't play his game. stop and turn and say, would you like me to bring my microphone over to you because you're talking and you're breaking the rules and maybe they can't hear you at home, but i can hear you. can you do this or not? are you such a child that you cannot be quiet for 90 seconds, right? >> right. she has to be forceful, in command and forceful about the debate process, because any candidate who's ever gone up against trump tentative doesn't work. so she has to take command of the stage. in taking command of the stage, she has the opportunity to show

she's in command of the issues and poeshlgly the united states and make that contrast between i am the candidate who will take the country forward in xyz ways and he's the candidate who's -- >> donald, you're not telling the truth now. you just can't tell the truth, can you? he's remarkable. peter, you've written a great story front page of the "new york times" talking about trump's age and how things have changed so quickly. it was joe biden a couple of months ago, all the questions about biden's age. >> that was so june. >> that was so june. the last debate feels like it was in like 1947, it was so long ago. you write now donald trump is facing questions about his age and capacity. >> the politics have turned on their head, of course. he is now the oldest person on stage, and he won't have joe biden's issues to distract from your point of view of his own. a lot of people said on june

27th he didn't necessarily present very well, but because biden had such a hard time formulating his thoughts and looked blank at times. we've seen through that child care answer and other statements that he can go off by bizarre tangents, hard-to-understand statements. >> when he goes out -- and he's not campaigning a lot now, but when he was while joe biden was still in the race, he confused nikki haley with nancy pelosi. he confused world war ii with world war iii. he kept thinking, he kept thinking that he had beaten barack obama. he kept thinking he was running against barack obama. he was -- and again, i'm not -- i mean, when i'm 78 and i'm

standing up on stage with that sort of pressure, perhaps i would do it, we would all do it. but he definitely was looking addled. i just wonder are you getting any reporting that's why they're keeping him off the campaign trail? >> that's a good question, right? he is different than joe biden in that he projects more energy and more volume, and that covers some of the mangled verbiage and unfinished thoughts at times, although if you play the full answer to some of these questions like the child care thing, it comes through. in journalism, we look for the quote that seems to make sense and we write a story or put a clip on air and we don't tend to play them at length the way we probably ought to more often, because when you do see that -- and we'll see it tonight perhaps -- you understand he isn't completing a sentence, he

isn't completing a thought, and however loud he may be, people are questioning his ability to answer the questions. >> in a moment we're going to speak with the chairman of the democratic national committee jaime harrison. but first, joining us now is donny deutsch and the cofounder and ceo of "all in together" lauren leader, and professor of history at tulane university, the great walter isaacson. one more thing on the structure of the debate. i think there is a tendency on hosts and producers to have their topics. we're going to do foreign policy and we're going to do domestic policy, and he doesn't answer the questions and they have to move onto the next topic. why? why do you have to move onto the next topic if you haven't gotten

an answer about whether 2020 was a fair election? why not stay on the question until you get an answer? who would have a problem with that? >> that can be a question as simple as who won the 2020 election? >> the cnn town hall, i would have never let that question go by and continued with the town hall. >> cnn before the atlanta debate made clear. they said we're not in the business of fact checking, a decision that was greeting with criticism from a lot of quarters. abc has not said that. abc has said we will do some. we can't fact check everything a candidate says, but we will do some. that's a step in the right direction. it is a big moment tonight. it is undeniable. it might be the only time these two share a stage. i think for the vice president, she does present such a conocracy.

this feels like an opportunity not only to grow her support. >> start with one question. mr. trump, did you or did you not lose the 2020 election? that's the existential question. if we go on the premise that the most important thing is, is democracy on the line or is it not on the line? that's the tell. you stay on it. she has to pivot contrast phrases. take a lesson from the old reagan thing, there you go again, brand him with a pivot statement each time. mr. trump you've said that a thousand times before. mr. trump that's a lie again. mr. trump, that's yesterday's news. continue to brand him as a liar. brand him as old news before he answers the question. that will get under his skin. she has to look like a commander in chief.

that's really important. it brings up another issue you talked about earlier in the show, the woman issue, a woman in power. it's unfortunate that she still has to do that dance, but she does. do the pivot phrases, be in command, get under his skin. moderators, please start with the question, who won the election? >> donald, you've been lying for a decade now, the same lies. it's time to move on. that sort of pivot. walter, let's just step back and tell me, looking back at presidential debates, what one or two have stuck out in your mind as actually having an impact on the election. >> i think what really matters both in the debate and the campaign is to come across as i'm the person who cares about people like yourself. i think that reagan, who had a very strong ideology, was able to capture that, and he was able to capture a sort of sage brush

populism that meant i'm not for the elite even though it was, as a lot of what reagan did, an act. i think now you're seeing populism not just in the united states but around the world. we have a history of populism both on the left and the right, ever since andrew jackson maybe of shea's rebellion. kamala harris saying i care about people like you, i'm fighting for you against the banks or whatever, big corporations, but also not make it fully idealogical. i think that's what reagan was able to do at some point in the debate, and that's even what bill clinton was able to do. >> shea's rebellion. somewhere a bell just rang for jon meacham. let's bring in chairman of the democratic national committee jaime harrison. what are the keys tonight?

>> it's interesting listening to your conversation about trump, because just because you're loud and crazy doesn't mean you're lucid and competent. this is a guy who is unhinged, who could talk about the price of bacon and wind energy in one sentence, who could talk about sharks and electric motors. i mean, this guy -- >> hannibal lecter. >> yes. he's not all there, and we need to start treating him like he's not all there and that's dangerous to this nation. i think this debate tonight is really going to be a stark contrast for the american people. it's about the future versus the past. it's about truth versus lies. it's about hope versus fear. ultimately it's about progress versus chaos. i think the vice president is going to stand on that stage tonight and be presidential. and when she does that, we are going to ride into this november

election, because that will answer the question that so many people who don't know her have about whether or not she can handle the job. if she can handle donald trump tonight, she can handle vladimir putin and any other dictator or wannabe dictator out there. >> what are the things that worry you about this debate? >> you know, i'm not really worried about the debate. >> you're the only democrat that isn't. [ laughter ] >> unusual in that aspect. my grandma used to tell me, you control the things you can control. if the vice president goes and follows the advice that jim clyburn told me when i debated lindsey graham, look at your opponent once or twice, but most importantly, look at the camera. you're talking not to the opponent on that stage but the american people. those are the people you want to

talk to. tell them what you want to do and paint a contrast with the opponent and why they will fail to do those things that you want to do. if she does that, she checks all the boxes, because ultimately it's about speaking to the american people and listening. joe biden in that last debate gave so many openings there. you don't want to cram so much data in your head that you're trying to remember the data and you're not listening for the opportunity. donald trump is going to give you plenty of opportunities. you've got to listen, take advantage of those opportunities and knock it out of the park. >> there's a reason not many sitting vice presidents have won the presidency in history. it's kind of an awkward position. you've got to be your own person and loyal to the person who made you vice president. what is her task with regard to joe biden? how much does she need to

distinguish herself from him? >> joe biden's been one of the most transformational presidents we've had in our lifetime. you look at what he inherited, what sheherited with him and where we are now. our economy is the best in the world. earn feels as though they can live the american dream. the other guy on the other side of the aisle donald trump, this is the guy who got us into the ditch. he drove us into the ditch, and now he wants to get us deeper into the ditch with these tariffs and everything else. if she can explain that, it's about going after the character, but also policy. your character influences your values which influences the policies that you have. >> chairman of the democratic

national committee jaime harrison, thank you. how about those gamecocks? >> that will be exciting. we shall see. lauren, we haven't brought up yet the issue that -- i think i always go back to the anti-tax revolt in california that really was the precursor to the american revolution. how much do you think abortion is going to play a part in this debate and this election? >> well, we've been talking about the lies. one of the biggest whoppers of the last debate was trump's repeated insistence that

democrats want abortion after birth, whatever the hell that means. it's just so insane. that was one of the lies during the last debate that went unchecked. the president didn't respond to it, which is enraging for so many people. trump has been flip-flopping like mad on this issue lately, because he knows it's a loser for him. he can't decide how he's going to vote on florida law, whether he thinks it's too much or too little. now republicans are saying they support ivf and they're not going to come for birth control. this is the opportunity to call out the stream of lies and the fact that you can't trust him because he's changed his position so many times and that's dangerous. >> he can't take away the truth that he's the reason roe was overturned. >> he owns it. >> it's the extremes of this argument that get everybody in

trouble and this ridiculous notion about babies being killed after birth. when you start going down there, you're arguing over things that are not facts. i feel like there's an opportunity -- and i wonder if you agree -- for kamala harris to appeal to republican and democrat men and women about the health and future of our young people of childbearing age. >> yeah. i suspect that's what she's going to do. that's what she's been doing all along. that's what you saw at the dnc, families talking about the horrible medical implications. you can't get away from the gender dynamics in all of this or the racial dynamics. we've been talking all morning about the obligation for harris because she does per the "new york times" poll have a lot of room to define herself. only 9% of americans say they don't think they know enough

about trump versus 28% of voters that say the same about harris. that's an opportunity for her, right? on the other hand we're continuing to focus on what she has to do at the debate. you couldn't lower the bar any further for trump. becausically what we're saying is he just needs to not be crazy and that's a win for him. >> the we're in a country now where women have had 50 years of rights taken away from them, and we are actually in realtime seeing what that looks like in hospital rooms or parking lots or homes across the country. >> so many issues that are so polarized now. as you said, abortion is one of them. and, as you said, it's the type of issue that you could have reasonable people figure out they could agree on 70% of the

thing, but that's not where our country is right now. it's more divided and more polarized than any time since 1968 and maybe since the civil war. this election is about whether or not we can break the fever where families can't talk to each other at thanksgiving sometimes, where people are in their own silos and echo chambers on social media and media. it's an election about something bigger, which is, are we going to come together as a country and go into the future, or are we going to continue to be a very divided, enraged nation? >> joe. >> i'm curious, donny, you look at donald trump's challenge when it comes to his ceiling, 47, 48%, something like that. he's never done better than that before. he could this election. you never know what's going to

happen. i'm curious about your thoughts. we were talking about it down here around the table. i'm wondering if the first thing kamala harris does is something that seems like the antithesis of what you and i would suggest, and that is do no harm, do no harm. you have a guy who's got a hard ceiling at 47%. you just have to pass the threshold. you can be president of the united states. you're capable of it. you're up to it. give people permission to leave the chaos, the insults, leave the cat-eating stories, leave january 6th, leave the madness behind. this is such a sense of exhaustion. i'm wondering if kamala harris' job tonight should be to do no harm and show people she's fit for the job. we can leave that in the past.

>> i wish that was the case. i think because she's still an unknown and i think because there's a need for people to see strength and need to see people kind of slay the bully in effect. unfortunately, i think if he doesn't blow up and she doesn't rise to the challenge, i think he wins. she has to win. unfortunately, she's got to win by a touchdown. it's unfair. he gets graded by a curve. it's almost the reverse. he just doesn't act like an idiot and it's a win for him. >> lauren leader, walter isaacson, thank you very much for being on this morning. we appreciate it. peter baker, thank you as well. the paperback version of his book "the divider, trump in the white house 2017 to 2021" comes out next thursday, september 19th. thank you, peter. coming up, our next guest is

pushing to protect access to ivf treatments for every woman who needs them, saying there can be no place for extremism when it comes to women's health care. mike lawler joins the discussion straight ahead. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back.

they're going to get a free play. rodgers is the master at it, and a touchdown by lazard. >> that was his first touchdown pass in 610 days, one year after his debut with the jets ended with a torn achilles. rodgers threw for 167 yards last

night, had an interception. tyrod taylor took over under center with new york trailing the 49ers in the fourth quarter. jordan mason rushed for 147 yards and a touchdown in place of the injured christian mccaffrey as the niners spoiled rodgers' comeback with a 32-19 victory. let's bring in republican congressman mike lawler of new york, not a jets fan, a giants fan. that's even worse right now. what's going on with new york football? >> it's at times being a republican in new york, you know. >> what, you win -- >> every so often. a governor's race every couple decades. >> that's it. we'll see what happens in 2026. you look at new york sports, and obviously we've had a little bit

of a rough patch. yankees started out promising. they've started to collapse. >> my gosh. >> aaron judge is having a great year. >> he's having a great year. the mets are doing great. >> eh. >> so you're a yankees and giants fan. >> i was a vendor at yankee stadium. >> were you really? >> yeah. >> before they turned it into a mausoleum. >> yes. >> can you believe how bad the new stadium is? >> you can get everywhere. by wrapping around the old stadium, you couldn't go around the whole building. you know what the problem is? they flipped the number of seats that were up at the old stadium. it was 20,000 below, 30,000 up top. so it felt more like this. then they went 30,000 below to jack up the price and 20,000 up top. so that's part of why the noise

isn't the same as it used to be. >> they have a lot of empty seats too. the real problem is the new york yankees are evil. let's talk about a lot of things. first of all, your campaign, you're considered to have one of the competitive districts. how's it going right now? >> i feel good. this is a direct joe biden won by ten points. there's 80,000 more democrats than republicans. it's home to the clinton. so it's certainly not a republican bastian. we focused on israel, iran, common sense gun safety. i've been able to bring back 38 million to the district and work across the aisle to get major things done. i'm proud of the record i'm running on. the polling looks good heading into the final stretch. >> you're running an ad centered around ivf. let's run that right now.

♪♪ >> i'm mike lawler. when my wife and i decided to start our family, we thought it would be easy. >> it wasn't. >> that's why i'm fighting so hard to protect access to ivf treatments for every woman who needs them. there can be no place for extremism in women's health care, from the left or the right. let me be clear. i will never support a national abortion ban. i'm mike lawler and i approve this message. >> back in february, tom suozzi, gave the playbook to democrats in new york. are you giving a playbook to republicans in new york and perhaps in california where the house might be decided, how to run on this issue that donald trump doesn't seem to have figured out how to run on? >> absolutely. i think people want reasonableness. they're tired of extremism. part of the reason i've been

successful in democratic districts is because i go into every community and talk to voters about the issues that matter, inform them of where i stand on the issues and why. i've been very clear, i support protections for ivf, access to contraception. i'm against a national abortion ban. i have always supported exceptions for rape, incest, life of the mother. i think people want a reasonable conversation on this. for me, the issue is somewhat personal. my wife and i suffered a miscarriage in 2020. you feel that loss. you don't forget that loss. i understand for everyone this is a personal issue, it's an emotional issue. no one has an abortion cavalierly. this is deeply personal. when we engage on the conversation, a big part of it is trying to understand where each other is coming from and come to a reasonable approach.

>> i'm curious if you think congress should play a role in this, because i fully understand where you're coming from and appreciate your coming on the show to share your beliefs here. i don't think your speaker has the same beliefs and i don't think he thinks congress should play a role in this. what are your thoughts on that? >> one of the first things i did after the alabama court decision on ivf was sign onto susan wild, her bill to codify ivf protections into law. i think there's broad bipartisan consensus on ivf protections. i've also introduced a bill to provide tax credits for those who are trying to use ivf to get pregnant and start a family of their own, as well as a bill to force insurance companies to provide coverage.

i think generally when it comes to the issue of abortion, obviously the country is deeply divided on this. there is not as much consensus as ivf in terms of federal protection. in a state like new york, the issue is settled. i'm not pushing to change it and it's not going to change. i think in the states where people are pushing for abortion bans, it's going to before. we've seen what's happened in kentucky and kansas and michigan. it has failed, because that's not where most people are. they want a reasonable discussion on this. they don't want extremism or an absolute ban. they also don't support late-term abortion. the first trimester is reasonable, but that, again, will be decided by the people in the states. i caution my colleagues and those pushing for an abortion ban, it's not going to work and it's actually going to backfire. >> you look at the polls that

show this race within five points. i know florida politics pretty well. i ran in a district that jerry fallwell once called the most conservative district in america. yet i had people who were conservative in other ways come up to me and say, hey, you don't support overturning roe v. wade, do you? a lot of people moving to florida to get away from what they call big government states like new york and california, et cetera, the last thing they want is a law saying we basically have a total abortion ban. >> the numbers are pretty, pretty clear. interestingly enough, a poll had kamala within two points in florida. i think that might be an out

outliar. i -- congressman, you're a man around the center. i really like that ad that you're doing. how do you respond? >> i think there's no question in this debate we've heard extremism on both sides. some of my democratic colleagues do push for no restriction on abortion. that's often where you'll hear republicans push back. ultimately people want a reasonable dialogue on this issue. >> wait, wait, wait. to donny's point, there is no law that allows a doctor to kill a live baby, is there? donald trump -- >> we passed the born alive act in the house. i was being attacked by my opponent on that. all it's saying is it is

reaffirming that if a child had survived an abortion, that you have to provide medical care. >> has that ever happened before? has that ever happened once? >> potentially in rare cases. again, i think it's reaffirming the point. we don't want extremism on this issue. so we don't want situation where you are pushing for late-term abortion or absolute bans. people want a reasonable response. >> this is an issue people say there is no middle ground. it's fascinating what nikki haley said when she was running. she said, okay, so listen, here's the deal, republicans support and a lot of them have supported like 16 weeks and then a ban, which is about where france and a lot of european countries were before. roe is viability, which is 23, 24 weeks, maybe a little less

than that. some democrats might even move -- so i'm not saying we can divide that and say, okay, it's going to be 18 weeks. >> right. >> but there are about 70, 80% of americans that would like a reasoned discussion and reasoned resolution on this, because obviously people on the far right, people on the left, they're not going far left or just not going to go to that middle, but a lot of americans wouldn't mind that. >> that's what i'm talking about. the extremes have been driving this conversation for years. and the vast majority of americans believe there is a reasonable time period for an elective abortion. obviously the health and life of the mother always, but whether it's 15 weeks, up to 24 weeks as you're talking about, whatever that difference is, at the end to have day most people do believe there is a reasonable time period. >> right.

>> so the question is how to have that discussion without it turning into recrimination against each other. as i said before, when my wife and i suffered that miscarriage, you suffer a loss, you recognize there is a life. the truth is, as i said before, nobody cavalierly has an abortion. but the people who do consider themselves to be pro-life, they are for a reason. it's not about judgment. it's about trying to find a reasonable approach. >> congressman mike lawler, where are you going to watch the debate? >> i'm flying back to new york for a 9/11 ceremony, so i'll probably catch it after. >> go red sox. thank you so much. ahead, we're going to be joined by one of the most outspoken critics of donald trump, his own niece.

mary trump joins us on "morning joe," next. joins us on "mornin joe," next announcer: kamala harris was given one important job as vice president - monitor and control our southern border. how did she do? did she take the job seriously? did she do all she could to protect american citizens from an invasion? did she do anything at all? lester: you haven't been to the border. harris: and i haven't been to europe. i don't understand the point that you're making.

announcer: here's her grim score card: murders, rapes, attacks on children. a 12-year-old girl in texas. a mother of five in maryland. a nursing student in georgia. all savagely murdered by those biden and harris let into our country unlawfully. harris: we have a secure border. announcer: kamala harris was and is a complete failure at her job. now she's asking us for a promotion. who in their right mind would give it to her? restoration pac is responsible for the content of this advertising.

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welcome back. donald trump's outspoken niece is back revealing even more personal stories of what she calls her family's deep dysfunction. in her new book "who could ever love you: a family memoir," mary l. trump details how freddie endured years of insults from donald trump and fred trump sr. mary describes how that abuse decimated her father freddie's confidence and set him down a path ultimately leading to his death at age 42, following a struggle with alcohol.

and mary l. trump joins us now. i guess we'll start there, thank you for coming on the show. but fred trump sr., you describe him as a sociopath who was incapable of loving anyone? >> yeah. first of all, it is wonderful to be here, thank you for having me. >> thank you for coming on. >> fred trump, as i say, was a straightup sociopath, and i mean that diagnostically, not colloquially. he and my grandmother had five children and i think you could describe every single one of them as a destroyed human being. we see this with donald, with the results of growing up in a family that didn't have any love, that had no real affection, and a family in which honestly money was the only currency. so, the ethos in the family was the more you have, the more you're worth in every sense of

the word. >> and i think good to point out for those who don't know it, you have a degree in psychology, correct? >> yes, i have a ph.d. in clinical psychology. >> okay, so does that help give you a little bit more insight into what you were seeing, because as a younger person, it must have been very confusing. >> actually, as a kid, i think this is true for most of us, it was normal. it is how our family -- >> it is what you knew. >> famiies are closed systems. it is difficult to see what goes on in other people's families or to compare. so, yes, it wasn't until i sat down and wrote my first book that i started thinking about my family through the lens of a clinician and it was very revelatory. i don't think it helped me in any particular way, but it helped, i think, other people make sense of what was going on. >> tell us a little more, if you would, about the relationship between your father and his brother, donald trump.

there have been moments where donald trump as president has spoken about his brother, even with him, a little degree of emotion, a loss there, you say that relationship was also deeply tortured. >> yeah, honestly, they were so many years apart that they didn't really grow up together. my dad was almost eight years older. and because he was the oldest son, and the namesake, the burden was on him, so for many years, the younger children in my family and my aunt mary ann who was the oldest, but a girl, were essentially ignored by my grandfather. so, donald has a benefit of watching how my grandfather placed all of the onus on my dad to become the killer, to become the man who would take over the empire, and fail. so, he saw how my dad got dismantled, as soon as my grandfather realized that freddie was not going to cut it, whatever that meant in my grandfather's point of view.

so, it wasn't until much later when donald sort of leapfrogged my dad, to become the president of trump management, after my dad had worked there for 11 years, and my dad sort of fell away because of his illness and because of his perceived failures that donald took over the mantel and there relationship actually became more of the conquered and the conqueror. there was never any competition, my dad didn't see donald as competition, he was so much younger and he knew what his role was supposed to be. it wasn't until the end of my dad's life it became obvious that he was completely cast off and the only person in the family who mattered was donald. >> speaking of donald, is there one incident, i've written about him, that was kind of a tell of where he was ending up as a human being, remember anything as a young person? >> yeah, i mean, he just never

seemed interested in other people. it was all about what he was doing, his accomplishments, his successes, or his perceived accomplishments, i should say, and it was -- he was very much the same person then as he is now. >> the title, who said this? >> that was from my first -- my first piece of hate mail which i got when i was in fifth grade. some anonymous parent had their child write a letter to my mom about what an awful person i was, and i still -- i don't know who wrote it, i don't know what the motivation was. >> why did you make it the title of the book? >> it is sort of how i grew up, i grew up feeling that i was not loveable, that i was not worthy of my place in the world, and pretty much like everybody else in my family, though i didn't know it at the time, i felt i had to justify, find ways to justify my existence, but unfortunately all of us were doing it to people who didn't

care. >> the new book "who could ever love you: a family memoir" is on sale now. "new york times" best-selling author mary l. trump, thank you very much. thanks for coming in to the studio. we appreciate it. good to have you. and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera and chris jansing pick up the coverage in two minutes live from the debate site in philadelphia. n philadela

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right now on msnbc, the final countdown, kamala harris and donald trump just hours away now from their first ever face-off on a debate stage. and the stakes are high, with 56 days to go and a race thrust into unchartered political territory. >> ahead this hour, what each candidate needs to do tonight, trump seeking new footing after a rough summer, harris facing the biggest moment of her political career. >> plus, the