's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. ♪♪

hi, everyone. don't you love that music. it is 4:00 in new york. the prosecutor versus the felon, the want to be autocrat versus the democrat. a candidate weighed down by incumbency in the eyes of the voters, a candidate who will be the oldest president in our history should he prevail. versus the candidate of change from a much younger generation. every contrast that defined the 2024 presidential election could very well be distilled in to 90 minutes on one of the biggest stages of this campaign season so far. with the mics muted and no audience with only the moderator as loued to ask the questions and two minutes to answer and two minutes for rebuttal, vice president kamala harris will be up against a candidate who at this point is defined by his lies. as we reported before, he told more than 30,000 lies over the course of his presidency. countless more since then. a candidate who has no problem spewing disinformation no matter

the consequences, as long as it serves had im. here is how vice president harris herself put it. >> there is no floor for him in terms of how low he will go and we should be prepared for that. we should be prepared for the fact that he is not burdened by telling the truth. >> and the truth for trump is ugly. as nbc news puts it, quote, amounting an attack against trump, harris could pick and choose from a golden coral scale buffet of material. there was trump's role in the january 6 riot at the capitol. there is his criminal conviction in manhattan this year for falsifying business records, or his 2022 contention that the constitution provisions could be terminated because of what claimed was widespread voter fraud in his re-election bid. trump would later write a post denying that he wanted to do with away with the constitution. and that short list is the tip

of the iceberg when it comes to the ex-president's record in public life and any attempt by the vice president to bring up the facts could be met by another dynamic that has emerged in this campaign. ever since kamala harris became the democratic nominee and that is deeply personal and sexist and racist attacks against him from donald trump. and "the new york times" reports that team trump worries that he, quote, wouldn't be able to contain his animosity toward mrs. harris. can you blame them for worrying? this is what happened the last time he debated a woman. >> my social security payroll contribution will go up as well donald's assuming he can't figure out how to get out tv. but what we want to do. >> such a nasty woman. >> let's stop here though and add the final dimension. think about that quote i read from a trump aide speaking to "the new york times." that trump, quote, won't be able

to contain himself. that in and of itself should be enough information for all of us. he's running to be the leader of the free world. the holder of the nuclear codes. and we have his impulse control being questioned business his own team of advisers on the pages of today's "new york times." tonight's nan an inflection point for us, the voters. when we watch this confrontation and judge it with clear eyes, will we see one candidate supported by her entire party as well as prominent former leaders from the republican party, people like dick and liz cheney. and the other guy, estranged from much of his own cabinet from his administration, as well as his first vice president. will we see clearly that no matter what one guy said about the 2024 election, he's already told his own voters that they don't ever have to vote again. will we hold each participant to the same standard tonight. will we entertain policy

discussions if both candidates can't declare on the stage tonight that the actual results of a last election really were. will we watch with confidence and conviction or with fear. that fear that the bully and his enablers want us to feel. hours to go before a high staked meeting before the four times indictments ex-president and the nominee running a historic came is where we begin in philadelphia. mini joins us, and also joining us political analyst tim miller, a former rnc spokesperson and host of the bulwark podcast and plus professor of historior ruth bengie is here and msnbc senior analyst matt dowd is here. ruth, you tell us how your watching tonight's debate. >> thanks, nicolle. first of all, these are not

people would are approaching his occasion in the same way. in a democracy, the purpose of a debate is to allow voters to see both candidates, you know, added to views on questions. for an authoritarian, it is an occasion to indoctrinate people and to spew lies and to stage a kind of fear and smear propaganda show. and the authoritarian wants to control the narrative because trump is a very good information warrior. and the reason that it is important to have all of the lies, if there is no fact checking by the moderators, that means the adversary, harris in this case, cannot make her case to the people. she can't spend her time doing that, she has to be refuting his lies and his smears. so they are approaching this with different aims and in quite a different spirit. >> so why, ruth, why do they get

set up this way. why agree to these terms? >> you know, the big picture is that we have these forms of election season and we have these rituals in the election season and we've had them because we're a democracy and i believe they don't work when you have one candidate that has exited the democracy. in fact, let's just think about what will happen. one of the candidates who will accept the election results, that is harris, no matter how they fall. the other will likely contest them and has already talked about prosecuting an investigating democrats likely harris included. so these are not -- these are not people would are even working in the same frame. and so it is problematic to put them together and pretend everything is okay. and that their equal candidates so i do have a problem with the whole frame that we're pretending we're still in a democracy and we could compare

these people and treat them as equal. >> matt dowd, what are your thoughts? you spent a lot of years at abc. you know these journalists will be conducting the debate. what are your thoughts heading into tonight? and i want to just put on the table, my colleague rachel maddow's sentiment, i don't have it in front of me, she's hoping for a debate that is just a normal debate, not one that changes the contours of american politics for weeks to come. >> well, i disagree with rachel on that. i'm hoping for a debate that solidifies the dynamics of this race in the positions that they're in as opposed to it is just voters throw up their hands and say well it doesn't matter, either one, it doesn't matter. i think the former is going to happen. i think it is going to solidify the position of harris having a lead in a very contested race in this. i think david muir and lindsay davis will do a good job.

i think they will hold donald trump much more accountable than the cnn moderators did in the debate with joe biden. though, i agree with what ruth just said, it is very difficult when you're going to get this toronto of lies by donald trump, to try to confront that in the midst of also trying to present what you want to present as a candidate, for harris. what i think she will probably do, and i don't know this and this is what i would recommend, but i think she's smart and she'll probably do, is you don't have to attack every single lie that he tells. but i think at moments in times you have to pick certain lies and basically say, so many lies, so little time, let me deal with two of them. and do that a couple of times. and then just basically swat it away and just say, a couple of times say, wow, there are so much lies here, i know everybody said we can't handle all of this. let me confront one or two of these. i think she needs to do that.

i don't think that debate and you know this nicolle, having been through this, as much as about how one candidate annunciates policy specifics as it is the values they convey to the american voter and harris has much more to gain in this debate than donald trump does. donald trump's position is very solidified in the voters' minds. favorable or unfavorable, a majority dislike him and he can't change that dynamic much. the person who could change the dynamic is much more vice president harris in this. and i think she does that by coming across as simultaneously strong and empathetic and she could do that by enunciating policies and using policies to show she's strong and can do what the american public wants and relate to average americans. but i also think she needs to show her strength in confronting donald trump, not throughout the hour and a half, but at a certain key moments she needs to

confront donald trump. more so to build up her own stake than to hold donald trump accountable in the voters' mind. >> and your point about the upside, is that he walks in known by everybody, nobody is undecided on donald trump. there are no variables or levers for him to plus up or down. she's the one that comes in, in your view, and in your analysis, matt, with the ability to make -- to further solidify the good impression people have and to introduce herself again to people who are just tuning in. >> yeah. there are two things that i think are pillars for her tonight. the first thing is she has to maintain then enthusiasm advantage that democrats have over donald trump which is significant. d.c.s did not have an enthusiasm advantage in 2020 and 2016. the last time the democrats had an enthusiasm advantage like this was in 2008. so the debate, she hos that maintain that. but the group of voters, when is

only about 5% or 6% of the country that is either undecided or soft harris or soft trump supporters, is they -- that group already dislikes donald trump. they are looking for a reason to go and solidify with vice president harris. they already dislike donald trump. they don't want to vote for donald trump and they are looking for something to hang their hat on, and to me it is a quality of strength and em pangy and if she conveys that, then i think she sol fied her spot. but there is one thing to keep in mind. solidifies means you maintain a 3% or 4% lead. that is it. >> tim, i wish i had thought before you sat down to pull your slaying of pierce morgan. because the story you tell to pierce morgan about why donald

trump and kamala harris have never met is to me a wonderful story should she decide to explain why they weren't on the same stage in 2020. tell the story here. >> yeah, i was thinking about that again when you read the quote from the trump aides, he can't contain his animosity. why. there is no reason other than that other than racism or sexism or -- and he just can't help himself. it is impulse control. so going back to what you asked about what i chatted with pierce morgan about, pierce had interviewed cory lewandowski, this little softball interview before i spoke to them. and cory is like, you won't believe this but donald trump and kamala has never met and this is the first time and they had this chummy chat to beg cory to let donald do an interview

with him. and i said, wait a minute, did you think to ask why they didn't met. they didn't meet because trump had a temper tantrum and for the first time since the civil war we did not have a peaceful transfer of power. for a first time the ceremonial transfer of power did not include the existing administration working with and passing the baton to the incoming administration. he didn't show up to joe biden and kamala harris's inauguration. he flew home to mar-a-lago and his emotional support cougars and golfs and had a temper tantrum. they haven't met because he's a baby. and thinking about what ruth mentioned in the beginning, all of that is context for this debate, right. this is the first debate that these two have had since that. this is the first time we've had debates since somebody attempted a coup and did not participate in the oldest democrat, peaceful transfer of power and now he wants to be back in the white house again.

and i think it is important to think about that context and to talk about it bluntly and frankly because, like ruth said, this isn't like mitt romney versus obama. it is different. it is different in nature because it is the first time that they will be on stage together and it is the first time we'll have somebody that has been convicted of felonies on that stage and been impeached twice on that stage with her. look, it is not her job to bring all of that up, the whole debate. i think matt makes some good jobs about her job and to show strength and pick her spots. but at times it is important for the moderators an the vice president to remind people of the reality and in a frank way so that the people understand and the viewers watching why this crazed mad man is on stage with her. >> minnie, i picked up on this idea that trump may not be able to contain himself. because no aide would say that about a woman, right. she not be able to contain

herself. it suggests a lack of control. and only a male adviser to a male candidate would project on to the pages of the "new york times." their candidates lack of control when sharing a stage with a woman. it is a remarkable framing for the trump campaign to be offering up tonight. that if he attacks her in a ghoulish sexist, misogynistic racist way, it is not his fault, it is because he couldn't contain himself and he has an echo back to something that we covered yesterday, the ache is hollywood tape and the women accused donald trump of sexual misconduct and sexual assault. all of that is now ballasted to a policy that affects every woman with a womb, every woman who has ever had a child, every woman who thinks she might some way want to have a child, any woman who ever looks back and remembers being able to have a child and every man and child who loves any one of those woman

in any stage in her life and that is overturning roe and bragging about it. tell me how you think his misogyny might be experienced differently in a post-roe era. >> you know, this is the donald trump story, right. his entire life he's had guys around him excusing his behavior and making excuses. and he's been successful anyway. so honestly, why would he behave any differently. he won this way. i'm a 2016 alumni of hillary clinton. this is the same donald trump. he's learned nothing. if anything, he's gotten worse. the big difference is, those voters that matt was talking about, those folks who are still in the middle or undecided, you know, we talked about this, a lot of americans are just dialing into the election now. they don't know kamala harris. they may not understand that the overturning of roe is solidly donald trump's fault. so our job tonight is to echo that. but i know that the vice president, she's going to come in and make that point.

and she's going to aggressively prosecute the case. donald trump did this and what she's going to do to fix it. and that is how she's able to, with her prosecutorial style, i believe, and her empathy and her deep commitment and expertise on this issue, she could really turn this around. trump is this misogynist, he's never really cared about anyone but himself, let alone women in this country and american families and here is what he did and here is what i will do. that is an important message tonight in addition to her character, folks getting to know her. she want to see solutions and specifics. this is a solution that is not partisan. we know republicans and independents are interested in this position. and want to see a fix to the disastrous overturning of roe. >> we have so much more to get to including a fantastic neward from the harris campaign featuring president obama. i'm going to show it to you. no one is going anywhere. trump will likely do anything and everything to avoid telling

the voter where's he stands on this issue, the issue of abortion rights from the out right lies and information about what democrats and democratic policies would do to completely changing the subject. we'll talk to someone who has managed to prosecute the republican party on the issue of abortion, andy beshear about that. and later in the broadcast, in the ongoing pursuit of getting for his skin, the harris campaign has invited several high ranking former trump administration and white house officials to the debate tonight. to remind everyone of why donald trump should never, ever return to the white house again. and anthony scaramucci will join us and much more when "deadline: white house" tips after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. migraine str, you're faced with a choice. accept the trade offs of treating? or push through the pain and symptoms? with ubrelvy, there's another option. one dose quickly stops migraine in its tracks. treat it anytime, anywhere without worrying where you are

or if it's too late. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness. migraine pain relief starts with you. ask about ubrelvy. learn how abbvie could help you save.

let's say you're deep in a show learn how abbvie or a game or the game. on a train, at home, at work. okay, maybe not at work. point is at xfinity. we're constantly engineering new ways to get the entertainment you love to you faster and easier than ever. that's what i do. is that love island?

here is a 78-year-old billionaire who has not stopped whining about his problems. >> oh, she had a big crowd. >> it is weird obsession with crowd sizes. it goes on and on and on. >> america's ready for a new chapter. we are ready for a president kamala harris. >> i'm kamala harris and i approve this message. it was the moment in president obama's campaign speech that was sure to launch a thousand such efforts like this one. potentially to get under donald trump's skin. it is airing today on fox news and in the west palm beach and philadelphia media markets.

we're back with minnie, tim, ruth and matt. tim, i'm going to come back to you. trump triggered his hideous version of himself, but perhaps the most revealing and there is sort of ongoing debate about how much voters should see, when fox news started cutting away from his events, i became interested in what they were cutting away from. what is your sense on what he will sort of show case tonight? >> reporter: how did i know you were going to come to me on the crowd size joke there, nicolle. i felt it. >> i was embarrassed going to ruth. she's a scholar so i had to come back to you. >> reporter: that makes sense. that makes sense. look, the harris side, and i'll get to trump, the balance in her convention speech of the threat is serious that he's unserious. by i think that is the balance

tonight for her and i think this speech or this ad rather on fox is trying to get under his skin on the unserious side of things which is a worthwhile endeavor. i like that the came is running ads on fox. it is not the first one. there are gettable voters on fox and those that could move from soft trump, to don't like him or i'm not going to vote or vote down ballot. so to getting under his skin. on trump's side, i'll say this one time this year trump has shown any restraint and it was in the last debate in atlanta and there were a couple of times, wow, he showed some restraint. is he able to do that tonight? i find it hard to do. you see his team and the national association of black journalists and the last time he was on stage with black women. that is it. but how do you do that. there is no way to control him. and if he really has that animosity for her, i expect that he will not be able to control himself. but we'll see.

>> and ruth, again, in terms of what we'll be watching, i think you're framing is so helpful in understanding that we're not watching a contest between two people playing the same game. we're watching one doing the normal things that tim and matt are talking about, who will have to sort of in her free team brush off the lies and the smears an the insults an the disinformation and the stunts. trump is also known for elaborate stunts in 2016 especially. but how do you -- all of that sort of stipulated, what do you think will be most useful for these undecided voters or voters who like harris but need sort of the reason to make sure their registered and registered to -- to convert them into voters? >> i think the blend of her showing you know, not only what she's accomplished as part of the sitting administration, but what is her signature going to

be as a leader. and so a blend of those positive things into the future, her values, right, that is important, as matt mentioned, but also pointing out the -- what will happen if -- if trump comes in, reductions in veterans benefits, things that are going to affect every day life. the economy cost of mass deportation. but i do want to say something about the ad. because authoritarians are the most insecure people in the world. they are obsessed with their own grandiosity because they -- they secretly are so insecure. and in fact, that is why they go after -- they can't take a joke and they go after anybody who speaks about them critically, in turkey erdogan has sued people that we called insult suits.

hundreds of thousands of ordinary people have had insult suits. so mocking trump about the very thing that he cares most about, which is being add you'll ated by cheering crowds is actually a sound strategy based on who these people are. >> so ruth just gave me a permission structure to play one of hi favorite pieces of film. this is president obama critiquing dare i say mocking donald trump at the white house correspondents' dinner back in 2011. >> donald trump, is here tonight. and i know that he's taken some flack lately. but no one is happier, no one is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest than the donald. and that is because he could finally get back to focusing on the issues that matter.

like did we fake the moon landing. what really happened in roswell? and where are biggie and tupac. >> mean, matt dowd, that was reported at the time and in the years since, it is been over a decade since to have gotten under his skin and what is amazing to me, it is not a long distance between those conspiracy theories and italian space lasers, the things that consumed his actual presidency. but just speak to the dark art of poking fun. >> well, you know, i'm going to take up where ruth left off. i think the superpower that we haven't fully talked about is the vice president is her ability to laugh and the ability to sort of carry -- not only at herself and have this sort of zest for life, but also her ability to look at donald trump

and basically make you -- make people look like this guy is a joke. right. and to me, that is one -- that is stronger than any full frontal confrontation with him. it is stronger than sort of some mean attack or some personal attack or anything like that. making voters and making viewers smile when she goes after donald trump or laugh at donald trump, will convince voters why i want a human being in the white house, not some crazed narcissist who can't seem to relate to any human being at all. and that to me is such a huge contrast in this. so i think there will be a couple of moments where she can actually make a point of making people laugh or smile at donald trump. that will help voters. but it will also insense donald trump. it will -- the biggest fear donald trump has in life in my view is a woman laughing at him. that is donald trump's biggest fear in life.

and he has a woman standing next to him who carries joy unlike any politician i've ever seen. >> wow, i think that is perfectly put. i want to sort of show case another talent that we've seen and even that has covered her, during trump's term and that is her prosecutorial ability to give space and grace of someone falling on their own face. she did it to jeff sessions as a member of judiciary committee and he said you're making me nerve and she said take your time and she did it to bill barr who asked for three to four clarifications, which was simple, has donald trump ever ordered an investigation into anybody. and she did it to brett kavanaugh who asked to clarify what her question meant about any laws that may or may not be involved in the male body. so that is a skill she certainly

has possessed her entire time in public life. but seemed to fine-tune in the senate. >> she's smart. i mean, i'm just going to state the obvious. we talk about so many contrasts between trump and vice president harris. she's brilliant. she is a tremendous on a national and global stage. we saw it in her time as vice president. and she has a unique talent of making powerful men incredibly nervous. and that couldn't be a better skillset for this moment we're in now. you know, the other thing, you ask be many the feminist reaction and the misogyny, i want to say that trumpen -- trump engendered one of the moments with the women's march. the idea that donald trump could beat someone as incredibly confident as hillary clinton, enraged american women so much that they turned out in record

numbers to protest the administration before he could even get started. so, what you got with kamala is the same kind of veracity of talent and brilliance as an orator and joy, and also trump and his record and the fact that so many american women are just -- they can't wait to get out the vote for kamala harris. >> minnie and tim, i'll ask you to stick around and ruth and matt dowd, thank you for rooting all of our conversations today and i'll be on for many hours in your wisdom and your wonderful context. thank you for starting us off. coming you next for us, democratic governor of kentucky andy beshear is here. leading the charge for protecting reproductive freedoms in our state and our country. he joins us next on the message vice president harris should seek to get across tonight. stay with us. us

leo! [whistling] ever since we introduced him to the farmer's dog, it's changed his quality of life. leo's number 2's are really getting better. better poo, better you! that's a good boy, leo! (♪♪) if you have to cut, divide, pack, drive, dump, plant, scout, mend, weld, stack, feed, feed, feed... you hungry? thank you! and snap, saw, pull, load, map, send, roll, tow! drop, drop, drop, and haul, all in a single day, then you just have to get in the seat of the new john deere gator™ xuv. learn more at your john deere dealer.

with dexcom g7, managing your diabetes just got easier. so, what's your glucose number right now? good thing you don't need to fingerstick. how's all that food affect your glucose? oh, the answers on your phone. what if you're heading low at night? [notifications ringing] wow, it can alert you?! and you can even track your goals. manage your diabetes with confidence with dexcom g7. the most accurate cgm. learn more at dexcom.com.

t-mobile's 5g network connects a hundred thousand delta employees so they can make every customer

feel like they've arrived before they've left the ground. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. you've seen the stories and you saw it at a convention of women's on death's door and you have doctors who are afraid to provide treatment because they're looking over their shoulder. >> this is a health scape. it is a crisis created by donald trump and now they're trying to weasel out of it, i'm pro-women now. that is b.s. and we all know it. we're not going to be gas lit by them. >> this fight for reproductive freedom, this is not just a

fight for women. this is not a fight only about women. this is for all of us. this is for men, this is for families. everybody needs to care about this. >> the second gentleman doug em half on the harris-walz freedom bus tour talking about the high stakes for this election for all americans and anyone who values freedom and the dangers of a second trump's term and it is part of the effort to keep trump's record in the spotlight ahead of tonight's presidential debate. joining us now, democratic governor andy beshear, who made abortion rights front and center in his red state of kentucky with great success. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having many he. >> one of the stories that i think alluded the choice side for so long was to talk about what happens if.

what happens if you can't have the kind of health care you need when you lose a pregnancy you desperately want. what happens if you're not getting the health care, you're not able to have babies. what happens if your raped by a family member and you don't know your pregnant before six or ten weeks and you're campaign and this broader effort has answered all of those questions. what is in your view the key to having such an ideological broad spectrum of voters, democrats and women and younger and older voters see this as a freedom issue, not just a traditional sort of abortion issue. which wasn't as galvanizing as this issue is today. >> well, think what has gotten us to the point that people see this as a freedom issue is the level of extremism in donald trump's position. you know, it is his supreme court that got us into this mess. he bragged about over turned roe v. wade and then he said it is a

beautiful thing. that it is left to the states. well what that has done in my state is lead to the most draconian law in the country where there are no exceptions for rape on incest or norn viable pregnancies so you see hadley duval who spoke in his campaign and at the dnc who shares her painful truth about being sexual abused started at 5 years old by her stepfather andig preg nated at 12. if that happened today, she would have no optioned in kentucky. her rapist would have more rights than she would. you look at the the couple that stood at the dnc who i just saw in texas on saturday. she almost died with her husband right there because she couldn't get the care that she needed in a nonviable or ultimately problematic pregnancy. she is a child of god, too. and this extremism almost led to

her leaving this earth. i think what really drives it home are people telling their story about not being able to potentially get the ivf that they need to start a family that they desperately want. this is all very personal and so many people when they see these stories know that donald trump and his group have gone way, way, way too far. it fails a basic test of empathy and human decency when you look at the victim of rape or incest and tell them they shouldn't have options. >> governor, it is not even a persuasion exercise, the bans that eliminate abortion health care in the cases of rape and incest are opposed from 86 to 93% of all americans. the bans that eliminate exceptions for the life of mother are opposed by larger numbers. how do you take that near universal disdain for the policies and make sure those people are motivated to vote for

harris. >> well, first, we have to tell that story, that reality all over country. you might live in a state that has more access than certainly our state needs more access, but you could still care about the people in kentucky, in tennessee, in texas, and other places that face this wrong reality of not being able to get the basic care that they need or to have options after going through at worst of the worst. and you're right, 85%, 90% of kentuckians think it has gone way too far. most people reject extremism regardless of partisanship. we believe that either party at different times could go too far and this has. and to hear how j.d. vance, he can't sympathize or calling it inconvenient when someone is

impregnated or donald trump calling it a beautiful thing that this is left to the states and what it has caused in the kentucky. with trump and vance, folks that don't care about your freedom, don't care that mom, my wife and my daughter had a constitutional right ripped from them. and then you have tim walz and vice president harris. you could tell they care about everyone, all americans. you could hear it in how they talk and they don't belittle people, how their policies left everyone up. yes, i think it is important to talk about this issue, about reproductive freedom but it is also that test of empanely, can you be a president for all of the people. can you put yourself in other people's shoes. do you have the decency to do this job in a way that lifts every single american up and values all of our freedoms. >> i mean, as you're talking, i'm thinking trump left mike pence to be hung by his own

supporters so women stand no chance. so i want to ask you about hadley duval. i had the privilege of speaking to her. and i wonder how you tragic and difficult moments of their lives, how do you make sure that voters would were moved by them and who maybe see the potential for women in their own life to be in that situation, how do you make sure that voters stay empathetic when our politics and i feel this way from covering trump, it is also so crass and so lewd and so dehumanized and that is one of the tactics of trump and trumpism. how do you make sure the humanity of a hadley duval stays in front and center for the next 57 days. >> you need to make sure that that story is front and center. hadley so strong and powerful.

she doesn't need me. i'm there for her and anything and everything she needs, she's a special individual. willing to share the most painful thing in her life to help other people to not have to go through it. to be there for them in their most difficult times. and her being front and center with her story, her vulnerability. her reality and people being able to see their own daughters or sisters in it. it is so important. again, hadley is one of the strongest people i've ever met. her moment at the dnc was incredible and i've seen her have that moment time and time again in front of every crowd. because she's just talking about her own lived experience and people get it. when they see it. they say how could she, who was violated through no fault of her own, by someone who was supposed to protect her, not have options. again, it just fails the test of

basic decency. not to be for options for rape an incest and nor nonviable pregnancy, but beyond that, for everyone to have options and freedom. women should get to make their own choices. choices about reproductive freedom and choices about ivf and whether to have children at all and not be judged for it. that is the type of world that i want my daughter growing up and i think that is the type of world that most people want their kids growing up in. >> andy beshear, the governor of kentucky, we appreciate you for taking some time to talk to us today. thank you. >> thank you. when we come back, we'll head back to philadelphia for another look at tonight's debate stage. how kamala harris plans to push donald trump on his very inconsistent and destructive record on abortion.

have you ever considered getting a walk-in tub? well, look no further! safe step's best offer, just got better! now, when you purchase your brand new safe step walk-in tub, you'll receive a free shower package. yes, a free shower package! and if you call today, you'll also receive 15% off your entire order. now you can enjoy the best of both worlds! the therapeutic benefits of a warm, soothing bath that can help increase mobility, relieve pain, boost energy, and even improve sleep! or, if you prefer, you can take a refreshing shower.

all-in-one product! call now to receive a free shower package plus 15% off your brand new safe step walk-in tub. i ras raped by my stepfather after years of sexual abuse. i was 12. and anyone who believes there should be no exceptions for rape an incest could never understand what it is like to stand in my shoes. this is to you, daniel cameron, to tell a 12-year-old girl she must have the stepfather who raped her is unthinkable. i'm speaking out because women and girls need to have options. daniel cameron would give us none. >> we're back with minnie and

tim. that is who we were talking to governor bashir about. donald trump is leaving it to the states in a lot of places there's a ban on access to abortion and healthcare in cases of rape and incest and in some instances. that is trump's policy. in the last debate he lied about the democratic position saying that babies were murdered after they were delivered, that doesn't happen. that isn't a thing. what do you -- what do you expect or what would you love to see sort of the lane be? trump will lie. harris will have to defend and articulate, but where harris stands is where 70% to 90% of americans stand. what's the opportunity that she has? >> i'm not sure she actually has to defend. trump is going to lie. he will say whatever he has to say to distract from his record and his position.

what kamala harris has to do is stand in her position and her conviction as vice president and the lead point person for this administration, the biden-harris administration for reproductive freedom and what she's done and what she will do when elected when we deliver a congressional majority. she has a clear, proactive, positive message to send. i think she just needs to acknowledge that trump is a liar and pivot and talk about a proactive agenda on reproductive freedom including contraception and ivf and i would like to see her talk more about what the biden-harris administration did and the mifepristone cases in the supreme court, the intolerance case in the supreme court and medication abortion and emergency care and abortion. they've actually done a ton, and i want them to take more credit for it. >> i want to give tim the last word. i have to sneak in a quick break first. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. go anywhere. we'll be right back.

one thing we know is true: no matter race, gender, ethnicity... the need to screen when due... for colon cancer's a priority. indeed! everyone 45+ at average risk should screen for colon cancer. these folks are getting it done at home with me, cologuard. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. i did it my way. [introspective music] recipes. recipes written by hand and lost to time. are now being analyzed and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ molly leaving was one thing. but then i thought mom's weak bones might keep us stuck on the couch. no way. (♪♪) if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis

and are at high risk for fracture, you can do more than just slow bone loss. you can build new bone in just 12 months with evenity®. evenity® is proven to reduce spine fracture risk by 73%. i heard her say the evenity® she's taking builds new bone. builds new bone! evenity® can increase risk of heart attack, stroke, or death from a cardiovascular problem. do not take evenity® if you have low blood calcium or are allergic to it. serious allergic reactions and low blood calcium have occurred. tell your doctor about jaw bone problems, as they have been reported with evenity®. or about pain in your hip, groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. building new bone. we dig it. want stronger bones? ask your doctor about building new bone with evenity®. i'm not old enough to vote yet, but i learned how one out of six of us will someday be raped. so please think about me when you vote. i learned how our freedom to have

an abortion was taken away... even in cases of rape or incest, even to travel to get an abortion. my freedom to have afternoon abortion was taken away. even in cases of rape and incest. even to travel to get an abortion. please think about me. >> you know who got rid of roe v. wade. now women are being refused life-saving care at hospitals and politicians are trying to ban birth control. please, think about me. >> my parents call me their miracle daughter because i was born with ivf. >> but ivf could be banned, too. >> do they think we're less than human? do they think we can't make decisions about our own bodies? about our own lives? when you vote, please think about me. >> and me. >> and me. >> because the politician who got rid of roe v. wade. >> he couldn't care less. you know what's crazy? >> that this is better than cooking at home? >> i mean, more affordable.

than groceries. >> of course. groceries are expensive. >> i thought i was in trouble there for a seconds. me and tim are back. this is donald trump's position in his own words. do you believe in punishment for abortion yes or no? the answer. there has to be some form of punishment. >> question, for the woman? answer, yes, some form. if they've been raped as heather duval had or the life of the mother is sadistic in his own words. what, again, is the opportunity

to make that clear to the largest audience tonight. >> this is the difference for 2020, right? this happened after 2020, dobbs did, and so i think this is the opportunity for the vice president to make the case about donald trump's extremism, right? mini and i just talked about this. a lot of people don't believe how extreme he is and don't believe the extreme policies of project 2025. it's about, yes, reproductive rights and it's about all of the scary stuff you hear and these plans and all these things they put down on paper, they could really happen and you want to know how it could really happen? because we're already seeing it in texas, and tennessee and kentucky and to just remind people that the stakes of this from a approximately see standpoint as opposed to the thematic elements we've been discussing in the hour. >> tim, you've been life with us, and thank you so much for spending the hour for us. up next for us, the harris

campaign's guest tonight in the spin room include former trump administration officials who saw first hand how fundamentally unfit he is to be president. one of those officials joins me next. stay with us. officials joins m next stay with us dea she's sitting oa goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com.

>> university of maryland global campus is a school for real life, one that values the successes you've already achieved.

earn up to 90 undergraduate credits for relevant experience and get the support you need from your first day to graduation day and beyond. what will your next success be?

♪♪ ♪♪ you played pence for harris' debate prep in 2020. >> what i saw, first of all, this intellect. she's very smart. i think people who see her know that. you see it and it's really impressive. [ applause ] but also that that intellect is matched with curiosity. whenever we were talking about statistics or things that she might bring up she was always pressing us for more, but not just detail for its own stake because she was pressing us to say how will this relate to someone's life and they're watching us at home and there's a powerful intellect, obviously and the sense of curiosity and

the focus which is what also made her such an effective prosecutor. hi, again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york and we are now hour away from tonight's presidential debate. the first and only face-to-face showdown between vice president kamala harris and ex-president donald trump taking place tonight in philadelphia, but this is not a normal political debate because it is one in which both candidates don't share or adhere to the same reality and trump can't adhere to the facts or the truth or covid or anything. we've seen him lie so boldly for nine years now and we cannot become numb to that as harris will prepare for the untruths that you'll hear during tonight's debate. we also cannot become numb to the warning upon warning upon warning that we've seen publicly now that the people who used to

work for donald trump in his first term as president, people who know his true character and abilities or lack thereof. that's yet harris campaign is deploying two former trump officials as guests, former communications director anthony scaramucci and olivia troy. hearing from them is like hearing from a reference from a job applicant and it's why we showed you from pete buttigieg at the top and he's someone that saw vice president harris in debate prep and he's worked alongside her in the last three and a half years meanwhile, those wh worked with donald trump in his time in office view him differently. scaramucci and troy, and high-ranking top officials have come out to tell the country that trump is unfit to ever serve again. their accounts are the focus of a new harris campaign ad we told you about yesterday to really know how someone will do in a job listen directly to those who

saw him in action. >> in 2016 donald trump said he would choose only the best people to work in his white house. now those people have a warning for america. trump is not fit to be president again. here is his vice president. >> anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president of the united states. it should come as no surprise they will not be endorsing donald trump this year. >> his defense secretary. >> do you think trump can be trusted with the nation's secrets ever again? >> no. it's just irresponsible action that places our service members at risk and our national security risk. >> his national security adviser. >> donald trump will cause a lot of damage. the only thing he cares about is donald trump. >> and the nation's highest-ranking military officer. >> we don't take an oath to a king or queen or a tyrant or dictator, and we don't take an oath to a wanna be dictator. >> take it from the people who knew him best. donald trump is a danger to our troops and our democracy.

we can't let him lead our country again. >> i'm kamala harris, and i approve this message. >> ahead of tonight's debate, former white house communications director and host of the open book podcast anthony scaramucci one of the former trump officials as a surrogate for the harris campaign. also joining us as the msnbc's 2024 podcast claire mccaskill is back and chief political columnist msnbc national affairs analyst is here. anthony, i want to start with you and i'm jealous that you're all together and we're all back here, but your argument about trump is what you've been making for years now and some of the folks who you've suggested saw what you saw and would be willing to warn the country have come out. do you expect a floodgate opening of additional warnings between now and election day?

>> well, i think there will be more, but i think as you know, nicole, it is very difficult. he's put together an enemies' list. he's told meme that he'll have treason tribunals and just imagine that in one of the freest nations in history that we have one candidate that wants to take away your first amendment rights by speaking out against him and there are a lot of people that are intimidated by that. the good news is we've got enough people now that are sending a warning message to the american people. >> anthony, what do you think sort of the three legs still holding him up are? what holds up his support? he's behind harris about three points nationally according to matt dowd, a very accomplished pollster. what do you think is holding him up and what do you think knocks one of those three legs out? >> well, i think tonight will be a big deal. i think the vice president will contrast herself. the realism of her and the can-do execution nature to her

personality versus the sort of discombobulation and the uncertainty and we need to see the full narrative of vice president harris, and i'll make a prediction here. this is say lot like the reagan election in 1990. the polls are very tight. the narratives emerged and i think the vice president did a great job tonight and once that narrative emerges you're going to see or take a wide lead over former president trump. >> one of the things that hasn't sort of settled in yet is that she now is the candidate who represents the vision for this country as embodied by bernie sanders and dick cheney. how do you -- how do you sort of take that to the country? >> well, listen, i think that says a lot because i think if you look at both of those people whether you disagree with their policies and someone may disagree with both of them,

frankly, they both love their country. they're sitting here with two choices and they see her as the choice it take america into the future. they see him as very divisive, somebody that will disengage us from our allies, somebody that will put hurt on his fellow americans and as one of those people in the ads, i think it was john bolton. he only really cares about himself. he's not here to serve the american people. so i think vice president cheney and senator bernie sanders see with great clarity the reality of this. she is the person dedicated to service. he's the person that's dedicated to self-service and that's why we're all with her. >> you have been an eyewitness to his disdain for the military. it's something that we talked about the last time you were on this show. since then, arlington happened. why, in your view, haven't more people spoken out about how he uses troops as props? >> well, a lot -- a lot of the

military leaders including h.r. mcmaster who i've seen on the msnbc air and wrote a great book which is a warning sign about president trump, they feel that they need to separate the military from the civilian political process, and so i think it's hard for them. we tried to push them back in 2020. they said no. these are people like general kelly, a personal friend or secretary mattis, but they've made statements. they've made statements to the press, and they've been on the record and general kelly did hear the suckers and losers comment and general kelly himself is a gold star family member, him and his wife karen, and so it's quite disheartening to hear president trump talk like that, and i think that message is resonating. i think there's a reason why vice president harris is up in the polls. it's a combination of all these things that we're discussing, but i think tonight is the breakout opportunity for her, and i would imagine she's going to go up big and stay up big until we get to election day.

>> she's also had a lot of endorsements since the last time i had a chance to talk to you from business leaders. just talk about the strength of her support in those circles which you know well. >> well, there's 85 fortune 500 business leaders that have came out collectively and endorsed vice president harris. she has a broad base of people that are entrepreneurs like myself that are also endorsing her, and i think the message is we are on the right track economically. inflation is down. we are doing things for middle income people and they have a great legislative agenda over the last three years. we're making microprocessors here in this country and we're rebuilding bridges, roads and tunnels and reducing inflation because of the cost of transit over the country over that infrastructure, and i think people want continuity in their messaging, and they know that she's pro-growth.

goldman sachs, my former employer where i spent seven years out of there coming out of law school. they contrasted these economic plans and they were resoundingly and objectively non-partisan objectively in favor of her plan, more jobs, better growth, higher income for middle-class families. >> what do you think your being there tonight does to donald trump? >> well, listen, i think he knows that the gig is up. i think he's getting painted into the corner. i think he knows there's an impending sentencing in the state of new york. i think he knows he's down and he's behind in the polls that's why he's lurching for greater publicity, saying more outlandish things. i mean, nicole, the next time i talk to you i may be in jail because i'm a vice president harris donor and he said last week he'll jail people that donated to her campaign. this is all of this crazy, illogical attention-seeking by

him because he knows that he's up against it. he has very good political instincts and he knows she's building an obama-like coalition to victory, and senator mccaskill and i were talking about registrations being up in swing states of the types of people that are going to vote for her, particularly young voters. >> last question for you. i know your time is in high demand. he's crazy, but do you think he's unserious when he talks about peopling people like yourself on an enemies list and holding tribunals for liz cheney? >> i think he's serious. the question is will people inside the administration try to stop him? i would say the normal players that entered with him in 2017 are no longer in the personnel category for him. he's looking for ultra loyalists and ultra right-wing deep wall and he disavowed project 2025

and he put people into the project. right there in the project they're talking about taking the fbi out of the justice department and having it report directly to him. so, you know, you have to take him seriously. if you read through the staff either there or in agenda 47 which is on his website, you have to take him seriously. you have to say there's something wrong with him. he is the least american. he is the most un-american presidential candidate in modern times. it's almost as if huey long and charles lindberg had a baby and created him, and we have to defeat him and so we'll be out there explaining that to the american public over the next two months. >> anthony scaramucci, thank you very much for starting us off this hour. i know that's claire sitting right to your right. claire, i'm coming to you to pick up on this message. trump is the most un-american candidate for president. it's a pretty simple message. >> yeah, and really, if you look at not just trump, but some of his disciples. i mean, i was reading today

about how ron desantis is sending people the election police to knock on people's doors, police officers to knock on people's doors and grill them about them signing a petition for abortion rights in florida. you know, what is that? that doesn't happen in america. we don't do that, and they had reems of personal information about this man when they knocked on his door and of course, it freaked him out. that's the kind of stuff we're talking about, and i've said on this show before and i'll keep saying it. just look at what's going on in venezuela. maduro who is what donald trump wants to be. he wants to be the kind of guy that it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, you get to stay in power. it doesn't matter whether you wen or lose and maduro is staying in power by blowing up the rule of law in venezuela and co-opting the military for his political purposes. that's what donald trump is capable of and that is not american.

that is not american in any shape or form. >> and john holland, that is how vice president harris is attracting support not from simply every corner of the winning democratic coalition of president joe biden and president obama and all of those coalitions resembled and also from the corners of the republican party that probably never thought they'd see the day when they would enthusiastically endorse a democrat and that's the cheneys and the kinzingers and all of those not voting for donald trump after watching him serve as commander in chief. what is your sense of how much of that could surface tonight or whether that is sort of going to be left for the work of surrogateses? . >> well, if you mean, nicole, do i think she'll make a direct appeal towards never trump republicans, i imagine that that is not what she's going to do, and i imagine that primarily

because for all of the success that she's had over these last six weeks, she still continues to have a challenge ahead of her. anthony scaramucci kept talking about how donald trump is down in the polls. the polls are a toss-up everywhere. it's a tie game nationally. it's a tie game in every battleground state and every poll is within the margin of error and for all of the momentum that harris has had, she's made up an enormous amount of growth fund with every important democratic constituence they joe biden was behind with. young voters, black voters, latino voters and all those voting groups, right? she still meaningfully not performing at joe biden's 2020 level, so she has work to do with bringing home those democrats and i don't say this that it's within her grasp to do it and in term of her affirmative message tonight. she's got to get the democrats to come home and to the extent that she is going to replicate

the biden or the obama model and both coalitions that won three out of the four presidential elections is putting together the broad, multi-racial, multigenerational coalition and also touching into the world of independent voters and soft republican voters. so she's got work to do in all those areas and i don't think she needs to by standing up and being a rational, sane, serious person who is in favor of internationalism, is in favor of the constitution and in favor of democracy. i think she's going to get attention from never trump republicans out there in the world. my big question for you, i don't know the answer to the question. certainly adam kinzinger and liz cheney are great. as we sit here right now i have no what kind of impact that is having against never trump republican voters and suburban voters and i'm not sure we've seen date on that so far and it's a strategy going forward,

but i don't know how much that's sunk in. >> i guess my sense of how you deploy that support is in defense of some of the smears. i think we can write donald trump's attempts of them and i don't want to -- they're going to depict her as a san francisco soft on crime. she can say donald trump pardoned people who after their sentences were commuted proceeded to beat their wives. one who was responsible for the death of a law enforcement official and freeing insurrectionists who beat cops. i don't think people who beat cops play well with voters. i don't think people who beat women play very well with republican women and i would deploy some of that republican support and some of that law enforcement support from fanone and dunn who testified for the january 6th committee to combat

the lies that will certainly come out of donald trump's mouth today, john. >> and the surrogate operation is really important in that area, nicole and that's one thing that team harris knows. i -- i was watching your first hour, and i want top come back to one thing that you said if i don't mind and i was thinking about that when i walked over tonight when you talked about how amazing it is to see donald trump's advisers in the pages of "the new york times" saying they're worried about whether he'll be able to refrain from showing his contempt for her. you were remarking on it in one way that's incredible. of course, it's incredible to hear that kind of thing and you never hear those kinds of things before debates and i want you to think about it through this prism and it's one of the trumpiest things i've ever heard. any of the candidates that we've covered, every one of them has tried to spin expectation before a debate. how do you do that? how they always do it. my rival, my opponent is so good

as a debater, is so brilliant, is so strong i will be lucky if i survive this debate, right? lowering expectations for yourself. only in donald trump's world are his advisers trying to lower expectations for him by suggesting that the problem is she, kamala harris, is so stupid that donald trump won't be able to contain his contempt for her. it's, like, they're spinning expectations down for him while they take a crap on her at the same time? i mean, really, i've never seen anything like that before, but it is so trumpy. it just blows my mind. >> i think some of it might be in the eye of the beholder because i saw it when they were talking about him like he was an untrained male puppy who couldn't help, but pee on the fire hydrant. >> it's a twofer. >> e plain away his bad behavior, if he behaves badly

it's because she's so dumb that he can't control himself. it's an amazing way they really are trying to have it both ways on that, right? >> i also think that the fact that they are running to be the person with their hand on the button and they're describing their own candidate of emotionally incapable of restraint makes it abundantly clear that they're not running to do the job and that's a further insult to the men and women of the military who would be under his command. so much more to talk to the two of you about. i need to talk to you more for the hour. we are live in philadelphia ahead of the debate between kamala harris and donald trump. when we come back, how we got here with the twice-impeached convicted felon at the top of the republican ticket again. journalist tim alberto will be our guest with extraordinary new reporting about how gop leaders, even the ones who started out against him publicly cave to trump time and time again and enthusiastically. and later, new polling shows just how bad trump's problem

with women really is. it's past his prolog and the gender gap continue tonight. we're back after a quick break. don't go anywhere.ak don' t go anywhere.you overdid so you can keep on rolling. [bowling pins knocked down] when you overdo it, undo it with pepto bismol. known for following your dreams. known for keeping with tradition. known for discovering new places. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 17 types of cancer, including certain early-stage and advanced cancers. one of those cancers is early-stage

non-small cell lung cancer. keytruda may be used with certain chemotherapies before surgery when you have early-stage lung cancer, which can be removed by surgery, and then continued alone after surgery to help prevent your lung cancer from coming back. keytruda can cause your immune system to attack healthy parts of your body during or after treatment. this may be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have cough, shortness of breath, chest pain, diarrhea, severe stomach pain, severe nausea or vomiting, headache, light sensitivity, eye problems, irregular heartbeat, extreme tiredness, constipation, dizziness or fainting, changes in appetite, thirst, or urine, confusion, memory problems, muscle pain or weakness, fever, rash, itching, or flushing. there may be other side effects. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions, including immune system problems, if you've had or plan to have an organ, tissue, or stem cell transplant, received chest radiation or have a nervous system problem. keytruda is an immunotherapy and is also being studied in hundreds of clinical trials exploring ways to treat even more types of cancer.

it's tru. keytruda from merck. see all the types of cancer keytruda is known for at keytruda.com and ask your doctor if keytruda could be the moment i met him i knew he was my soulmate. right for you. "soulmates." soulmate! [giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to t-mobile 5g home internet. and now his attention is spent elsewhere. but i'm thinking of her the whole time. that's so much worse. why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title. (♪♪) behind every splenda product is a mission. helping millions of people reduce sugar from their diets. now try a sweetener grown by u.s. farmers. introducing zero-calorie splenda stevia. at splenda stevia farms, our plants are sweetened by sunshine.

experience how great splenda stevia can be. grown on our farm, enjoyed at your table. (♪♪) >> utah is a place where we have big family, big hearts and we love freedom. we love the constitution and we despise tyranny. in utah, from the red rocks to the snow-capped mountains with the greatest snow on earth, we know what heaven on earth looks like. utah, the 45th state admitted to

the union, today proudly casts all of its 40 delegate votes for president donald j. trump and his newly announced running mate my friend and colleague j.d. vance. [ cheers and applause ] >> proudly casting all of the delegate votes for the disgraced ex-president mere syllables after professing his love of the constitution in his subversion to tyranny. the only thing more backwards than that is how that guy, senator mike lee more broadly, the entire republican party came to that moment and to tonight in the first place. remember mike lee, like so many of his republican colleagues, went to the 2016 republican national convention ready to do whatever it took to keep donald trump off the ballot even at that late point in the game. like so many of his colleagues he spent the 2024 rnc fledging fidelity to the same guy, donald

trump. now his next step may be close at hand and he's believed to be on the short list of trump's attorney general. a sort of evolution that will be in focus tonight as lee's would-be boss prepares to make his case to the country and not unique to the senator from utah. from tim alberto's new piece of storytelling in "the atlantic" to hear lee's friends, allies and former staffers tell it, and they did in dozens, though many requested a nonomity. once a good-natured latter-day saint was doing corny impersonations of his fellow senators he now regularly engages in crude conspiracy theories. once a politician who seemed to be fashioning himself as a modern daniel patrick moynihan of the right, lee is now a very online mag influencer. it's as if ned flanders became a

troll. joining our conversation and coverage staff writer for "the atlantic" tim alberta is here. i laughed at every word of of this. i sent it to everyone i know. this is an extraordinary piece of reporting and an extraordinary piece of writing. as an ex-republican my heart broke again reading this story, but i want to start where you start with something that for me, had an echo of michelle obama's speech about failing upward. mike lee comes to trumpism as a bit of a failure, right? he's not living up to his father's grand, highly regarded legal sort of example that he set. so he sort of falls into politics. will you take me to the beginning of the story you tell? >> yeah, nicole, so mike lee is sort of born into conservative royalty. his father, rex lee, had been solicitor general under ronald

reagan and compiled this astonishing record arguing cases before the supreme court and was really viewed as one of the lions of the modern conservative legal movement, and of course, mike lee's older brother, thomas lee, was also a very highly regarded legal mind, served as a justice on the utah supreme court, had been short listed by donald trump for one of those supreme court vacancies during his presidency. mike lee followed his dad and his older brother into the legal profession, but was really not regarded as the same sort of legal prodigy that they were, and in fact, i detail in the piece how when he first tried to get on to the law review at the byu law school he failed. he was rejected as an applicant and that was really sort of a crushing moment for him, and a lot of his classmates from that period who really liked mike lee, they recall how that episode sort of changed him and

caused him to start thinking very differently about how he could stand out, how he could distinguish himself and maybe do something else with his life that wasn't just tied to the legal profession and that's when he really, to their recollection, began to evolve into kind of a hardened republican partisan and begin to pursue a career in politics which, obviously, ultimately brought him to the u.s. senate in 2010. >> you had this great line from your many interviews with mike lee for this piece. he says to you, quote, all of us change, times change, he says shrugging. as time went on he insisted he hadn't changed and that what the world was seeing and hearing from was no trump-induced abnormality, but the rawest version of himself. those that know me know that privately this is who i am. i think you leave us as readers wondering which is worse, right?

because with lindsay graham and ted cruz and j.d. vance, j.d. vance once described trump as america's hitler and cultural heroin. you left in the lee reporting left us wondering which was real, but just take us through his transformation. >> it's really interesting, nicole, because when you study the tea party class of 2010 you obviously had scores of these self-styled insurgent conservatives who were coming to washington in the house and the senate intent on changing the republican party from the ground up, really sort of revolutionizing what they believed to be an intellectually corrupt and ideologically adrift gop and lee was really at the forefront of that, and he was very convincing. i just can't overstate this, nicole. a lot of his cleggs from the

2010, tea party class, they looked at him as a true believer. this was rex lee's son, and he spoke fluently the language of the constitutional conservatism who talk about the the threat of an imperial presidency. this was someone who left everyone who encountered him walking away believing that he was the real deal, and i think that as we've seen these different cases of evolutions, to put it mildly with other people in the republican party, a lot of them weren't all that surprising. i think we sort of suspected that some of these folks were play acting their way along, but mike lee, really struck a lot of us. myself included as someone who was serious and who was principled, and when he led that opposition to donald trump in 2016, we forget this, nicole. this guy literally tried to change the rules of the party at the 2016 convention to stop

trump from being nominated because he feared in their interviews at the time was that he believed trump was an aspiring autocrat and authoritarian. so lee's passion there seems to be consistent with his ideals as this small government constitutional conservative that he had been since coming to the senate in 2010. >> tim, if you sort of go to why this matters to the voters 57 days ahead of the elections. trump is running publicly in his own telling on day one would be a dictator. there's some reporting out including from my colleagues here at nbc about the purges that are planned in the department of justice and project 2025 describes the fbi in the same way that a lot of the right-wing trolls and mike lee might be the man who sits atop all of that project and all of that work after being someone

who touted the constitution as something he cared about? >> well, look, whoever is in charge of the department of justice under a potential second trump presidency is going to be the worst job in washington, and i think, you know, as you were talking about with anthony scaramucci earlier, some of the guard rails are gone here. there are not going to be a lot of checks and balances from within the administration with trz trump, when you talk about meek lee, doesn't, each in the aftermath of the 2020 election and what he was saying publicly versus what he was saying privately in trying to coordinate this effective coup with mike meadows the white house chief of staff and we now know based on the text messages that were released by the

january 6th committee, we know what lee was advocating for privately and it was nothing less than a frontal assault on the institutions of american democracy, and so this is someone who when i pressed him on this, and i asked him, you, about his conversion to trumpism and do you have any regrets about the aftermath of the election and your role, playing or trying to overturn the result and he basically says, well, if i'd known that those text messages were going to be released maybe i wouldn't have said so much. so that gives you chilling window into not just this new persona that he's taken on, but the unapologetic nature in which he has grafted himself on to the maga movement and really adopted his ends justified the means mentality where this is now a zero-sum conflict? whatever it takes to win and whatever it takes to get power

and hold power. mike lee of all people has shown willing business to do that. >> i'll ask you to stick around. i want to bring in claire and hal. a quick break. we'll be right back. d hal. a quick break. we'll be right back. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. >> vo: schedule free mobile service at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire [introspective music] recipes. recipes written by hand and lost to time. are now being analyzed

and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ - t-mobile “savings”, take one. -you might have missed me... guy's focus! let's not do fake falls! just say, “at t-mobile, you get tons of benefits, and you can still save versus the other guys.” -i'm happy to be here... - no fake stairs, please! hi, i'm patrick j. adams and i'm auditioning... is that a shimmy? just say, “at t-mobile, you can save on every plan, and you get great benefits with magenta status.” keep doing... whatever 'that' is, i'll do the line. check out the t-mobile savings calculator to see how much you can save . and right now, we'll even pay off your phone when you switch! [air guitar t-mobile mnemonic] we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just

sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com.

we are back with tim, claire and john. i want to put up the cover of "the atlantic" because it's news in and of itself. it's beautiful. tim alberta, you want to explain this to our audience what this is and why?

>> well, i don't know that it requires much explanation, nicole. >> just for our friends on sirius listening in their cars. >> that's right. it's one of these pictures worth a thousand words illustrations where trump on his way back to washington and with seemingly a scorched earth landscape and a lot of -- a lot of ugliness and uncertainty that lie ahead in the next four years. >> claire, you served with mike lee. tim's storytelling is extraordinary as well as his reporting on the conversion. there's a religious sort of parallel that could be made to seeing trump in a way that lee doesn't hold him to any of the standards that he previously

held anybody else in america and public life to, the carving out of trump. that's a hallmark of these men who have been so debased and humiliated by trump. ted cruz had trump insult his wife and his father and he's there pledging his loyalty and servitude. lindsay graham is, i think, humiliated by trump every third day still and pledging his loyalty. kevin mccarthy humiliated and lost his job anyway. this debasing of themselves at the altar of the most unprincipled person to ever hold the office is truly a political phenomenon that doesn't get enough attention. >>. >> you know, and i've got to tell tim that people should read this story even if they don't like politics because it is such a human interest story and when mike lee came to the senate he had defeated a really good guy. i mean, senator bennett was the

nicest man. he was full of integrity, kind, thoughtful and beloved by his colleagues in the senate and mike lee went after him in a way that many of those senators were offended by, and so when mike lee got there and tim touches on this in his story, he was not welcomed by mitch mcconnell the way he thought he should have been, and if you look at lindsay graham and mike lee, really it's about wanting to be in the room with the guy with the power. they want to be approved of. they want to be part of the gang. part of their ambition is tied up in wanting to be close to the guy that's in charge, and in that process mike lee just ditched everything he believed in and everything his family stood for. it is a terrible tragedy, and it's very sad. it could be an opera, you know? it is so sad, and i would love

tim to speak to that part of his interview with mike lee and the disappointment that his father would probably have with him. did tim get from all of the interviews that mike lee was uncomfortable about that and the fact that mitch mcconnell didn't love him was in a way look his father not willing to love him? >> go ahead, tim. >> well, look, i don't want to psycho analyze anyone and i'm certainly not qualified to do so, but one of the themes that i returned to so frequently throughout the story is that lee is very clearly looking for an identity as he's sort of coming into his own, and you're right, senator mccaskill, when he gets elected the fact that mitch mcconnell and so many of these established republicans in washington sort of keep him at arm's length and sort of treatment him like a pariah. mike lee's former chief of staff

said to me on the record in the piece that those guys had accepted him as one of their own instead of pushing him to the outside. i think that lee might have become kind of a mainstream established republican himself. this was someone who struck a lot of his former colleagues, his friends and his staffers as someone who wanted to belong to something, as someone who wanted recognition and to be liked and respected and when he didn't get that from the republican leadership he went looking for it elsewhere and he went looking for it elsewhere again and that quest led him to the unlikeliest of places which is donald trump and the maga world, and now you see him on twitter, you know, talking about a couple months ago speculating that president biden was dead when we didn't see him for a couple of days and asking the white house to provide a proof of life video. this is a real thing. a senator asking for a proof of

life video of the president and you ask yourself how can that be? how can this be the same guy? well, he now has this enormous online following and he's sort of a celebrity in the maga online world, and so he finally has the thing that he samed to drive all along, but it's obviously come at a tremendous cost. >> the story of extremism, political and otherwise, is the story that tim is talking about of wanting to belong, of being rejected by the people that you admired your whole life and you try to belong somewhere else and it is extraordinary and fresh, new reporting and it is the age-old story of trump and trumpism and the grievance voter also applies to the grievance enablers and the grievance accomplices in the senate. >> yeah, nicole, you asked a question earlier talking to tim

which is what's worse in some ways, and i think if you read tim's piece and read tim miller's book which are the enablers and the implicit argument is that the enablers are worse. trump is trump and that's bad enough, but it's this whole party that -- that went through the process you just laid out which is, you know, in a lot of situations that are enablers. you have a drug addict and you have some people that are enablers and some people who are trying to pull him back from the brink and some people are the better angels and what youio see here is the systematic collapse of an entire party into enablerhood and that is the only way trump has surveyed and the only way trump has survived power is because of the core weakness of the republican party. hopefully i can ask this

question of tim because i felt for you there, brother, when nicole was asking you to be the art director for "the atlantic" and explain the cover and that's a tough position to be in as a writer and you left out the elephant who was in the cage in the back on the front and that was the pertinent detail and trump riding back with the elephant, probably neutered in the backseat, in trunk of the coach there. to me, the tldr, too long, didn't read of your story is two parts, two questions that it answers. one is how toxic is donald trump? he's so toxic that he turned mike lee into what mike lee is now and the other is how total is trump's control over the republican party now? it is so total that mike lee has now become a maga person. that, to me, is the entire summary of the great long piece you've written is it speaks to trump's degree of toxicity and the total capitulation. if mike lee is now there, that's it.

we're done. >> well, and john, i think that point that you make at the end, right? if this can happen to mike lee it can happen to anyone and the reason that we emphasize that is because, look, we've all been around politics long enough to recognize that certain people are more fungible with their principles and values than others, but mike lee is another one of these guys who we look at and say he knew better. how do we know that he knew better? because he probable more than any other republican was diagnosing exactly the threats of trumpism before they materialized and now he's given into them. >> tim alberta, another extraordinary piece of reporting. thank you for spending time with us on it. john holland and claire mccaskill. thank you for spending the hour with us. when we come back, how vice president harris is preparing for something we've seen repeatedly from donald trump

over the years. his hateful and misogynistic and hateful attacks against powerful, accomplished women. that's next. powerful, accomplished women that's next. (vo) vote cheddar bay 2024. because when red lobster's biscuits rise, america thrives. so come in now for a chance to win four years of free* red lobster. because one bite can unite all parties, at least for dinner. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles.

don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. living with type 2 diabetes? ask about the power of 3 with ozempic®.

hi, my name is damian clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the

number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. it will surprise none of us here on earth one, but it turns out that demeaning and smearing and insulting women for years now is not a winning strategy in terms of trying to get the women to vote for you. a new poll from the 19th out this week shows vice president kamala harris' edge is propelled by women voters. she currently leads donald trump

among women voters by 13 points. and that is ahead of tonight's debate. where donald trump will face off against a female democratic nominee, a very smart one, again, for the second time. joining our coverage editor at large for the 19th, host of the amendment, our friend erin haynes is here. erin, just talk about this -- we talk about the blue wall. this feels like the wall of women helping to push harris to what is currently about a three-point lead nationally. >> yeah, i mean, nicolle, thank you so much and thank you for mentioning the poll we have out on the state of our nation with survey monkey. look, we said at the 19th going into this election gender was going to be on the ballot, women would be the deciders of this election. what do we know from our poll? this is pretty likely to be a close race. once again, women and the issues they care about are going to decide this election. yeah, one of the poll's key

takeaways is women favor harris more than men and that's across every racial and ethnic subgroup. former president trump still enjoys and has support among white men. he leads them by 14 points. white women back harris by six points. black women are supporting harris by a margin of 59 points. i don't think that's a surprise to a lot of people, but that is a sill stunning number. black men are supporting her by 30 points. and in critical battleground states like arizona or nevada, you have latina voters really by a margin of 16 points supporting harris. latinos are backing trump by seven points. and asian women are supporting harris by 11 points, and for trump, he's leading asian men by two points. so, i mean, i think this gender -- the gender gap in this election is absolutely going to make a difference, especially looking at battlegrounds, especially when we know how close this election is going to

be and especially headed into this debate tonight where you have one candidate really introducing herself to the american people and one candidate who a lot of the american people are already familiar with. >> erin, what opportunity does vice president harris have to sort of make an argument to girl dads, and if you are a man who loves a woman either as your mother or your partner or your daughter, here is the choice? >> yeah, i mean, i think there is a huge opportunity there. you've had vice president harris really focused on families, focused on this opportunity economy, but the inroads we are seeing from our rolling with the progress that she has made just in the six weeks she's been running on issues like education where you have the vast majority of americans thinking that schools to teach the country's history of slavery and racism and segregation is a think when we're talking about parents and

how they feel about what their children should be learning, whether we're talking about, you know, moms and dads and how they come down in this election. that is something that also kind of jumped out to me in our polling. also, you have the former president making those unusual comments about, you know, transgender students being able to have surgeries in school. that is something that was completely ridiculous that i think probably caught a lot of parents' attention. and, of course, the reproductive care issue, abortion is on the ballot for women, the people in their lives who care about them, the people in their lives who are also considering their own reproductive choices and what that might mean. >> erin haynes, a really important piece of data for all of us who hang on to ahead of this big night. thank you for joining us to talk about it. lk about it

♪ ♪ this one is for you. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job on indeed, it's easier for talented candidates to find it. which makes it easier for you to hire them. visit indeed.com/hire ♪ me and my friends ♪ ♪♪ ♪ it's feeling right, ♪ ♪ we're loving life when we're together ♪

♪ me and my friends ♪ ♪♪ ♪ we feel the height of lustful life ♪ ♪ when we're together ♪ life is better with the credit gods are on your side. rewards once available to the few are now accessible to the many. credit one bank. get cash back rewards, and live large. ♪♪ imagine checking your own heart with medical precision from anywhere. introducing kardiamobile 6l, the fda-cleared ekg that provides six-times more heart data than any smartwatch. and it detects three of the most common arrhythmias in just 30 seconds, including atrial fibrillation, bradycardia and tachycardia. check your heart with the most advanced personal ekg outside the hospital. get yours at kardia.com or amazon. ♪♪

is it possible to count on my get yours at kardia.com or amazon. internet like my customers count on me? it is with comcast business. keeping you up and running with our 99.9% network reliability. and security that helps outsmart threats to your data. moaire dida twoo? -your data, too. there's even round-the- clock customer support. so you can be there for your customers. with comcast business, reliability isn't just possible. it's happening. switch to reliable comcast business internet with security and get started for $49.99 a month. plus ask how to get up to a $500 prepaid card. call today!

so here is a little information to help you plan the rest of your night. here is what's happening around here. vice president kamala harris and former president trump's first and perhaps only presidential debate begins at 9:00 p.m. eastern. it's hosted by abc news, but we get to simulcast the whole thing beginning to end so keep it on m msnbc all night long. our special coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. eastern. stick around for that. the debate at 9:00. we'll be here for full analysis it's over. and now "the beat with ari melber." hi, ari. >> how long will it take in the debate to have your sense how