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but we do have some hints. here's one undecided voter my colleague jacob soboroff spoke with last night in arizona, a woman who wrote in her own name on the ballot both in 2016 and 2020. >> for years we've had men legislatures tell us we can't have abortions, we have to do this with our bodies, we have to do that with our bodies. we have never had control, and finally we have someone who's a woman who gets that it's about us. and abortion has been in our society and been around much longer than roe v. wade. and roe v. wade protected women of child bearing years from the charlatans and people not doing right by them. >> reporter: feels like a connection between you and vice president harris that wasn't there before tonight? >> absolutely. >> that's denise lewis. she says she's taking a serious look at harris. he also spoke with jeff hair, a man who did not vote in 2016,

and is now deciding between voting for harris and not voting for anyone at all. there's lynn of pennsylvania who spoke with nbc's kate snow. she voted for trump in 2016. and the libertarian candidate in 2020, and was undecided ahead of this debate. listen to both of them. >> i think kamala had a good debate. i feel more favorably towards her than donald. but i'm still not 100%. >> i think kamala harris came out showing some decorum, some presidential nature about her. so i think we're -- the door is a little bit open. >> so not a decision, the door is open for a lot of these voters. looking ahead, though, how the debate settles on the public's collective subconscious or at least the subconscious of those still deciding will at least in part rely on what lives on from last night in sound bites on cable news, the networks, talk

radio, podcasts, and of course social media. so let's see what's standing out today. joining us now, nbc news correspondent garrett haake, "washington post" senior national political correspondent and msnbc political analyst, ashley parker, and "punchbowl news" cofounder and msnbc political contributor, jake sherman. garrett, the one sound bite that is being played over and over again, as being talked about. there's one big one, and that is donald trump going down this conspiracy theory about or this debunked allegation that migrants are eating pets in ohio. let's play it. >> look at what's happening to the towns all over the united states. and a lot of towns don't want to talk about it. not going to be aurora or springfield. in springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats. they're eating the pets of the people that live there, and this

is what's happening in our country, and it's a shame. >> i just want to clarify, you bring up springfield, ohio, and abc news did reach out to the city manager there. he told us there had been no credible reports of specific claims of pets being harmed, injured or abused by individuals within the immigrant community. >> i have seen people on television. the people on television say my dog was taken and used for food. maybe he said that, and maybe that's a good thing to say for a city manager. >> i'm taking it from the city manager. >> the dog was eaten by the people that went there. >> the springfield city manager said there's no evidence of that. >> we'll find out. >> doug burgum was on another network trying to spin that. saying it was good. donald trump shined a light on the strain immigrants are putting on local communities, springfield ohio. that's not what donald trump was talking about. he was talking about migrants eating pets. how is the campaign feeling today, garrett, and is this why

donald trump is saying he's not going to debate again? >> doug burgum and the rest of the republican party would have liked to have donald trump shine the light on the strain that immigrants are placing on the communities in the country. that was the plan, the goal. that was part of the question. he was originally asked in that response, which was actually about the bipartisan border bill he helped tank. i think that was probably the single answer that most frustrated other republicans because in it you had trump get distracted even before that by responding to something kamala harris had said about his crowd sizes. the idea of immigrants straining resources in this country, the idea of combatting illegal immigration, the idea of talking about migrant crime, those are donald trump's favorite things to talk about on the campaign trail. they're issues that he thinks and his campaign thinks voters care deeply about. instead of talking about those, he chased a meme, i won't comment on the merits of the issue itself. there's plenty of fact checks

going on around that. it's not the core of what american voters are trying to talk about. that has frustrated republicans, including people in the next circle out from the trump campaign, not the staff but the folks in heavy contact with trump who wanted to see him put up more points on the school board score board. that exchange, that block of time was a missed opportunity to define kamala harris and talk about an issue on which voters in many ways in agreement with trump. >> missed opportunity is what we heard from a lot of folks who were trying to say donald trump could have done better. lindsey graham calling it a disaster to tim miller. garrett haake, thank you very much. i know you have to run. ashley, on the subject of immigration, kamala harris was able to bring up immigration and say that this was something that the democrats and the republicans were working together to try to solve, at least partially at the border. there is an immigration in congress, and only died, a bipartisan one, and it only died because donald trump started making calls on that.

did kamala harris win other voters, given that donald trump was talking about migrants eating pets? >> so i don't know if she won them over with that particular answer, but you could argue and her people would that she at least won the exchange in the sense that immigration is one of her vulnerabilities politically. it's an issue that has been historically good for republicans, and an issue where she has previously struggled in interviews to answer questions about the unofficial border czar. in an exchange like that where you have her really not being on the defensive and you have trump, and this was true, it's worth saying, throughout the entire debate, kind of playing on tilt. once she got under his skin, and got him off his game, then he became a little untethered. as he's playing on tilt, he's talking about they're eating dogs, they're eating cats.

that's how many voters did her actual answer persuade, unclear. that is a net win for the harris campaign. >> let's play this bite on the subject of race. we'll listen to how david muir asks it because that's important as well. >> mr. president, you recently said of vice president harris, quote, i didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black and now she wants to be known as black. i want to ask a bigger picture question tonight, why do you believe it's appropriate to weigh in on the racial identity of your opponent? >> i don't. i don't care. i don't care what she is. i don't care. you make a big deal out of something. i couldn't care less. whatever she wants to be is okay with me. i read where she was not black, that she put out, and i'll say that, and then i read that she was black and that's okay. either one was okay with me. that's up to her. that's up to her. >> it seemed like he was

entirely unprepared to answer what would have been obvious, you know, nudges or swipes from kamala harris. obviously the race thing was going to come up in the debate, and that wasn't even harris. that was a question from david muir. he seemed unprepared for a way to try to clean up that mess that he made last month. >> it's another missed opportunity, katy. i mean, the people around trump like to boast that they don't prepare for these debates. that he's the most prepared or the most successful or whatever. but there are certain things, being prepared is not bad. and i've never been in a situation where someone has been so happy to be prepared and had not worked behind the scenes to be ready for what is coming their way. no one goes into a situation like this, completely aware or completely prepared if they haven't done any homework. but i want to bring this to where i'm standing today, katy, which is in the capitol.

where there are 435 and 220 something house republicans, and a number of senate republicans who will be running on a ticket with a president going into a debate talking about pets being eaten from an online meme. when you talk about top of the ticket pull or drag, if donald trump is losing, as we've seen in states like wisconsin, and again, i don't know how much to trust the polls. i have no idea if they're right. we have to work with the data we have here, and if he's losing in states like wisconsin, and strug in states like michigan, how do the folks up here running and spending tens of millions of dollars to try to get majority the on capitol hill, how do they expect to win? and listen, you will have people up here on capitol hill suggest that everything is great and donald trump did a great job pointing to newsmax and daily

caller polls and things of that nature. but there's nobody that i have talked to who's a serious person, a serious person who didn't watch that debate last night and wonder what he was doing and what he was talking about. i mean, listen. us three here have the fortunate or unfortunate task of following some of these online debates about the cat eating and the duck kidnapping or whatever it is. but imagine if you're sitting at home wondering how your life is going to get better under a new president. and you hear someone talking about people eating cats and dogs and you're like what is going on, what are we talking about here. and i think that's what has a lot of elected republicans extraordinarily concerned. >> it's much more extreme. it's a little bit like the gulf exchange from the last debate. let me play senator mitt romney about what he took away from last night's debate. >> this was classic president trump. a performance in the case of

kamala harris. most people didn't know her terribly well other than a few clips that were not flattering that you might see on the internet, and people saw, oh, actually, she's an intelligent, capable person who has a point of view on issues, and she demonstrated that time and again. >> ashley, what do you think of that? and what are your sources within the republican world, trump world telling you about how they feel after last night's debate? >> again, mitt romney who i covered in 2012 is not necessarily someone who would be predisposed to vote for the person trump has called conrad kamala. it is important that that sort of voter that both campaigns believe is up for grabs, he's reflecting an accurate position of what you saw in that debate. are there still questions about if she needs to introduce herself to the nation more and outline more policy positions? yes. but it's often fascinate thag

-- fascinating that what voters tell you they want, and make their decisions are are different. to use the word du jour, vibes. if you want to see that kamala harris could be funny and confident and could be unruffled and unflappable, and take it to trump, and sort of troll him in the way he prides himself on trolling people, but in a way that unlike him was not bullying or cruel, you could watch that debate and that is a very fair, as mitt romney had, take away from 90 minutes. >> abc news says 57.5 million people tuned into the debate last night, making it the most watched network debate in at least 16 years. an opportunity for both candidates to get to 57.5 million people. we should linger for a moment on what mitt romney said. what did they come away with? he believes they came away with kamala harris was intelligent and they had a point of view.

kudos to the debate moderators, david muir and lindsay davis, they did a good job. that's a difficult position, and they did an admiral job. ashley parker, jake sherman, thank you very much. and still ahead, they are one debate down, but will there be a rematch? donald trump says probably not. we'll see. plus, we're live on the ground in another critical swing state. what voters in michigan are saying about last night's show down and an economic reality check is ahead. christine romans on the claims laid out for both candidates. we are back in 90 seconds. are . keep things fresh with febreze small spaces. it's an outlet-free air freshener that fights odors for 45 days. so even after every flush... you know your bathroom smells amazing. ♪ lalalalala ♪ life has twists and curls. but you define them and make them bounce. tresemme flawless curls defining mousse. 24 hour. hydrating curl definition. style your life the way you want.

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last night the abc moderators asked donald trump some simple yes or no questions on the war in ukraine, and january 6th. here's what he said. >> i want to ask you a simple question tonight. do you want ukraine to win the war? >> i want the war to stop. i want to save lives that are being uselessly -- people being killed by the millions. it's the millions. it's so much worse than the numbers you're getting, which are fake numbers. >> to clarify the question, do you believe it's in theu.s.'s best interest for ukraine to win this war, yes or no? >> i think it's the u.s. best interest to get this war finished and just get it done. >> would you veto a national abortion ban. >> i won't have to. two things, it's impossible for her to get the vote.

>> if i could get a yes or no, your running mate, j.d. vance said you would veto it if it came to your desk? >> i didn't discuss it with j.d. in all fairness. i don't mind if he has a certain view. but i really didn't. look, we don't have to discuss it because she'd never be able to get it. >> you were the president, watching it unfold. is there anything you regret about what you did on that day, yes or no? >> i had nothing to do with that other than they asked me to make a speech. i showed up for a speech. i said i think it's going to be big. i went to nancy pelosi and the mayor of washington, d.c., and the mayor put it back in writing, as you know, i said, you know, this is going to be a very big rally or whatever you want to call it. and, again, it wasn't done by me. it was done by others. >> so he won't say that ukraine wants to win. he didn't say that he would veto an abortion ban, and he has no regrets from january 6th.

joining us now, former hillary clinton campaign manager, robby mook, and also msnbc senior political analyst matthew dowd. matthew, no clear answers on those three very direct questions. >> are you surprised? he can't have a clear answer because the answer if it's clear isn't good for him. it's not good for him on abortion, on ukraine and on what happened january 6th. >> why can't he say clearly he wants ukraine to win, why is that bad for him? >> because him and vladimir putin have some sort of weird dynamic that he doesn't want to get on the opposite side of vladimir putin in this. and he has actually stated as you know publicly, he thinks the way to end the war is to allow vladimir putin to have what he wants. he can't say it because he doesn't believe it, you know, the reality is his relationship with putin compromises him in being able to make a decision on

that. i mean, i think his only answer unfortunately at this time, because he's answered these things so many ways and so many times is to give a word salad, and that's what he did. >> do you think it was beneficial for the harris campaign, to allow donald trump to take center stage, goad him, get him to talk, make the debate about his fitness, his ability to stay on topic, his own manner? >> well, i think anytime they can, you know, reinforce the contrast in this race, it is to their benefit, and so i think this was absolutely a helpful moment for the campaign. one pause they always have on all of this, what we're talking about today, people eating dogs, and cats, and you know, what he said about vladimir putin, and so on. what the harris campaign has to get done over the few remaining weeks in this campaign is reinforce to a small set of voters that she understands the

economic struggles they're facing, that she has real plans for that. i think this was a helpful moment for her. there's a little bit of a trap you can fall into with trump sometimes, despite how bad he makes himself look, he drives the narrative out of these events, he chooses what we're talking about, and so i'm sure, you know, the harris campaign right now, there's a little bit of stepping back to say, okay, how do we get back to our message. what we want people to know about harris herself, because she got into this race late. there are still voters who don't feel like they know enough about her, and that needs to be addressed. >> with the caveat, 28% of voters told the times sienna poll they needed to know more about harris. they don't know enough about her. it seems to be backed up by what we heard last night from various voters in various states, interviews that our nbc news reporters did. let me play one of them.

i think this is from pennsylvania, a voter who is trying to figure out whether they want to vote for donald trump or kamala harris. >> i really really want to like her so much. like, i do like her. i do. >> is there a but? >> there is a but, because, one, i don't think that she has actual policies that are going to be effective. maybe she will if she gets voted in because she'll have more time, but i don't think that anything she is mentioning right now is realistic. >> so you heard it right there, she wants to hear more still. kamala harris was able to get out quite a bit of policy, stuff she has laid out before on housing, on the child tax care credit, on opportunities for small businesses, she hit the three points home over and over and over again. is that going to be enough? >> well, right.

that's why she was hitting him over and over again. it's so hard to press secretary -- breakthrough. this is tough. the voters want to hear more policy. at the end of the day, these things aren't won on policy, and it's a big mistake we make as democrats. what people are saying is they're just, for whatever reason, uncomfortable enough. they maybe haven't seen enough or heard enough to make them feel she's focused or addressed their concerns. i feel good on the substance, based on the policies she has put out. based on her history, based on her story. you heard a lot about this at the convention. i think this is just about keeping the eye on the prize and really reinforcing her story, her vision for the future to the voters and it will get through. donald trump at every turn is going to try to stir up some sort of controversy that will block her ability to breakthrough. >> how does she get that exposure? is it sitting down for more

interviews with the press? love to have her here, obviously. >> all right i mean, it's a variety of things. the problem that i think that donald trump has that now the vice president has an advantage is this is the last moment, unless there's another debate. she's going to talk to millions of people in an unscripted way in a debate, as opposed to television commercials and that, i've said this before, a debate is worth 20 campaign dates. 20 campaigns days is what a debate is worth. she won 20 campaign days. i don't understand why donald trump is saying i don't need another debate. i don't want another debate. he needs another debate because he needs to change the dynamic of the race because the dynamic of the race if it locks in, locks in at a 3 or 4 point vice president harris margin in the course of this, and the other thing i'll add is we talk about undecideds. after last night's debate, there are no undecided voters. the undecided voters who say they're undecided at this point

in time are basically voters who know who they're going to vote for and aren't going to say. 100 million americans aren't going to vote in this election, 100 million who are eligible will not vote. the goal in the after math of this is to basically motivate your supporters. motivate your supporters until election day. if she can motivate her supporters, she wins a close race by 3 or 4 points. >> maybe there's more voters out there. you had the taylor swift endorsement. she's telling people who she wants, not saying who they should vote for. also giving a link on how to register, and early vote, she said, we'll see if that moves the needle at all. robby mook, matthew dowd, thank you. the top issue for the majority of voters. the economy. christine romans joins us. and what swing state voters thought about last night's debate. more sound from real life people coming up in just a moment. up t e

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what did you say to kamala harris this morning when you shook hands? >> very polite. >> it was a great day. we had a great debate. we had great poll numbers on the debate. and we enjoyed it. i hope she enjoyed it too. but i enjoyed it. we're looking at it, but, you know, when you win, you don't really necessarily have to do it a second time. we'll see. i thought we had a great debate last night. thank you very much. >> what would need to change for you to agree to a second debate? different rules, different format? >> well, you know, when you don't win, it's like a fighter. when a fighter has a bad fight, gets knocked out or loses the fight, the first thing he says is we want a rematch. so we won the debate according to every single poll. are we going to do a rematch, i don't know. >> he did not win the debate

according to every single poll. that was donald trump in shanksville, pennsylvania, after a remembrance for 9/11. speaking to reporters. he also went on to say he would do nbc, he would do fox too. but right now, we have to determine whether or not we event want to do a debate. vice president harris says she's ready for another debate with former president donald trump. you heard what donald trump said about it. noncommittal. he's arguing he doesn't need to, again, because he won. did michigan voters get enough to make their own decision from last night alone? joining us now, nbc news correspondent shaq brewster in grand rapids, michigan. shaq, what's up? >> reporter: look, you know, we have been focused on this county for a long time. i have been here time and time again, and it's because it's one of the places where you saw joe biden in 2020, he was able to flip it as he flipped the state of michigan, and, you know, i had conversations with voters who i met back in the spring.

they were haley voters for the primary. i asked about last night's debate, they said they were leaning toward harris. here in the conversations i have been having today, katy, among democratic voters, people leaning toward vice president harris already, there's a lot of enthusiasm. i want you to listen to some of those conversations. >> she didn't villainize the right at all. any attacks were really just about trump and the 2025 projects, and not, like, a sort of grouping the whole republican party together, which i appreciated. >> i'm glad i have a candidate i'm excited about. i was really upset with biden. >> having somebody come at you over and over and over again, and, you know, my blood pressure was going up, and i'm thinking, she really -- she really handled it beautifully. >> reporter: those who said that they're favors former president

trump said they're sticking with him. one person said he appeared scattered but says he likes his economic policies, and katy, there are plenty of people who didn't get to see the debate last night. we'll see what ultimately happens when you look at the polling. >> 55.7 million people did see. whether they like it or not will get fed a whole lot of stuff, shaquille brewster. joining us now, editor and chief of the crystal ball, larry sabato. what did you see last night? >> i saw a very one-sided debate that was won easily by kamala harris. and it really has helped her a lot more than any polls will show because it has built a foundation for her to run the rest of the campaign with credibility. people didn't know much about her. many democrats didn't. nobody follows vice presidents, and she only had a month to really try and introduce herself

when people were on vacation and doing summery things. last night, even for people who didn't watch the whole thing, and only saw pieces on the evening news, they saw part of kamala harris's bio filled out. they saw her values filled out. they got the sense of you could do that if you just sat there for ten or fifteen minutes. you could get a pretty good sense of her. that won't win you a lot of votes you won't have. it won't motivate a lot of people who weren't motivated. what it will do is let you ascend another step or two. think of the lincoln memorial, you know, lots of steps to climb there. i don't like it necessarily, but you're president. this was, i would say, ten steps. she made a real difference for herself and also revealed and reminded people about what donald trump is really like. use the word unhinged. that's my favorite.

>> i heard unravelled from some folks. let me play you what harris's team has said to have really liked from last night. one bite in particular. let's play. it's on abortion. >> i support reinnovating the protections of roe v. wade. as you rightly mentioned, nowhere in america is a woman carrying a pregnancy to term and asking for an abortion, that is not happening. it's insulting to the women of america. and understand what has been happening under donald trump's abortion bans. couples who pray and dream of having a family are being denied ivf treatments. what is happening in our country? working people, working women who are working one or two jobs who can barely afford child care as it is, have to travel to

another state to get on a plane sitting next to strangers to go and get the health care she needs. barely can afford to do it, and what you are putting her through is unconscionable. >> so we played a moment ago, donald trump couldn't say definitively that if an abortion ban reached his desk, if he were president again that he would veto it. he refused to go that far. i'm going to put up on the screen, an image from google trends, what was googled in the debate, what was searched for. and every state except one, the subject was abortion. the one that was not abortion was ohio, and i imagine it was folks there wondering if there were people there eating their pets. abortion, such a big thing. do you think that she has been able, and the democrats have been able to keep it front and center enough? >> yes, but i would say it's not democrats keeping it front and center, it's these real life

dilemmas that are just soul crushing when you hear the details of what people are going through because of what donald trump did in appointing three antiabortion justices to the court, and they made the difference in overturning roe v. wade. he doesn't know what to do. it is so obviously he hasn't known for a long time, although i give him credit for realizing that he's caught. there's no way out on abortion. he has to try to change the subject, and we all are concerned about the dogs and cats too. i certainly am. >> all right. larry sabato, thank you very much. good thing the town manager came out and said they've gotten no reports of it. it's not credible. because i'm very concerned about the dogs and cats as well. larry, thank you. >> thank you, katy. what traps harris laid for donald trump, and how he walked into them according to one columnist. we have him coming up, david frum. plus, tax cuts to tariffs, what

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donald trump has no plan for you, and when you look at his economic plan, it's all about tax breaks for the richest people. i am offering what i describe as an opportunity economy. >> they've destroyed the economy, and all you have to do

is look at a poll. the polls say 80 and 85 and even 90% that the trump economy was great, that their economy was terrible. >> the economy, as we keep on saying, is the big issue. so it's no surprise at last night's debate kicked off with a clash over economic records. both trump and harris tried to convince voters they had a plan that would lead to more money in your pocket. christine romans, we didn't play it, there was also a moment on tariffs. harris's team is saying it's a trump tax that would get passed on to you, and trump said -- >> if they're so bad, why did you keep them. he has called himself tariff man, and threatened to do big tariffs in a second term, something universally disliked by economists and the business community, and he said to kamala harris, if it's so bad, why does the biden/harris

administration -- >> they kept all of his tariffs? >> no, they haven't kept all of them. they have renegotiated some with allies, they have kept tariffs on china, of course, but the idea is that some level of tariffs can generate some domestic manufacturing, but it's not china that writes the check for a tariff as the president, the former president said last night. that's not true. china doesn't write a check when you put a tariff on it. it's importers and consumers. >> if you buy a pillow made in china, and you put a tariff on imports from china, that pillow adds, what, $5 to it. china is not paying the $5 tariff, the consumer is. so it is a tax on the consumer. but it's supposed to boost manufacturing here at home. has it? >> you know, there has been more manufacturing in the u.s. quite frankly, much of that has been toward domestic investment in manufacturing. you look at some of the things that congress has done over the past few years that just now you're starting to see a lot of activity in the economy around domestic manufacturing,

specifically in science and chips, and we're going to see more in the years ahead. >> let me ask you about chips. harris landed what i thought was a pretty sharp point. she said that donald trump sold the materials for chips, the intel for chips to china, basically gave them the secret weapon, and that that was crazy, and that chips are now being manufactured here at home as they should be through the chips and science act. can you untangle that for me? >> for many many years, the u.s. invented this technology. it invented this manufacturing, and then over the years it's gone mostly to asia, overseas. we learned in the crisis, the health care crisis that we were losing control over that really important supply chain, and that's a national security issue. so you've got taxpayers investing now billions and billions of dollars to try to make those here. and so that's a whole new phase here. she's trying to draw a line between what was happening in

the trump administration, and then what's happening now with strategic investments and domestic manufacturing of chips. >> she went at him with her policies and her plans, and she tried to get pretty specific. she talked about the child tax credit, $6,000 for the first year. she talked about business loans, she talked about housing and down payment costs. she's repeating things she has said on the campaign trail. this time she had an audience of nearly 60 million people according to abc. >> and she's trying to connect it to americans' kitchen tables. donald trump wants to cut taxes for rich people. donald trump wants to further cut taxes for big business, and they don't need it. i want to cut taxes for you. i want to fix the housing problem. i want to invest in, you know, moderately priced housing. i want to fix more of the care academy, really trying to show that one guy is for the rich, she is for everybody else, and that's where they were trying to, you know, that's what she's trying to show. i think we're going to see more, and i've told you this before,

more about the care economy in the days and months ahead as she's trying to introduce herself to america and explain how she would be different than the biden harris administration was. i think you're going to be hearing much more about the care economy as we go forward. >> christine romans, thank you very much. when we were watching the debate, we noticed and you did at home as well, when vice president kamala harris laid a trap, donald trump walked right into it. david frum of the atlantic writes of last night's debate that the mission was clear. harris debate prep seemed to have concentrated on psychological as much policy to trigger a meltdown. >> i'm going to do something unusual, and i'm going to invite you to attend one of donald trump's rallies. what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom. >> she can't talk about that. people don't leave my rallies. we have the biggest rallies, in

the history of politics. in springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in, they're eating the cats. they're eating the pets of the people that live there. >> talk about extreme. >> crime here is up and through the roof. despite their fraudulent statements that they made. crime in this country is through the roof. >> i think this is so rich coming from someone who has been prosecuted for national security crimes economic crimes, election interference, has been found liable for sexual assault and his next big court appearance is in november at his own criminal sentencing. the values i bring to the importance of home ownership knowing not everybody got handed $400 million on a silver platter and then filed bankruptcy six times? >> first of all, $400 million, i wish i was. i know zelenskyy very well, and i know putin very well.

i have a good relationship, and they respect your president. they respect me. they don't respect biden. how would you respect him? >> it's important to remind the former president, you're not running against joe biden, you're running against me. i believe the reason that donald trump says this war would be over within 24 hours is because he would give it up for the sake of favor and what you think is a friendship with what is known to be a dictator, who would eat you for lunch. >> joining us, senior editor for "the atlantic", and former bush economic speech writer, david frum. so, david, what did you see last night? >> i saw a woman who came on to that stage with one mission. make this guy lose his cool, and an adversary who knew that would be the mission, and who knew that his mission was to keep his cool. she succeeded, he failed. and so you've had this very interesting conversation just now in the previous segment about the economy, all of which of course are tremendously important, but what people who

watch that debate and who maybe don't pay obsessive attention to politics saw was a former president, a man now nearing 80 who just completely lost his composure and looked scary and rattled, and frankly, demented a lot of the time with his cats and dogs and the immigrants eating the pets in the park. and someone on the other hand who looked composed and amused and who never got upset. >> there was another moment, we played it a little bit earlier, this is donald trump refusing to say he had any regrets on january 6th, that he wouldn't do anything differently when dwirch the opportunity a couple of times, and continuing to say the 2020 election was stolen, that there was fraud, even when he was fact checked by david muir saying they brought a whole lost of lawsuits, trump tried to deflect and said he had no standing, and that was the problem. there was no fraud, no proof to

present to the courts. that's why the cases didn't go anywhere. this is what you wrote months ago to debate donald trump, someone denying what happened in 2020, denying an election, and thereby denying a democracy. how do you have a debate with somebody who's not playing by the rules of the constitution, the rules of the country, the way that we see ourselves? >> there is another thing that donald trump was denying, and that was, i think, the key to vice president harris's success. he couldn't say her name. he couldn't look at her. he couldn't acknowledge that she existed. he would sometimes talk about how putin doesn't respect biden. but he's not running against biden, as the vice president pointed out. he's running against the i don't want to gomma tour psychologist here. what people with narcissistic personal disorder cannot cope about-w injury and they say the person thattin fliblgted the

injury didn't exist. the more she beat him down she could not acknowledge that she was there at all and that translated into a personal disrespect that i suspect many women nted at first in maybe a subliminal way and it became more and morin skaepable. but it shows he was out of control. she was mastering him and he coped with that by pretending she wasn't there. she was just a set of pronouns. she, her, and you. >> and we just saw vice president harris getting off her plane. we think it is at andrews. this is another image that just came to us a moment ago. so this is new to me as well, david. this is president biden at shanksville, on the the memorial site for those who died on 9/11. and he gave a hat to a trump supporter saying that the country needs to get back to the bipartisan unity after 9/11. so the trump supporter took the

hat and said you should put on this hat and donald trump briefly wore as you could see in this photo, the trump hat. i imagine donald trump is using it. he's using trump war room and tweeting that out. the gesture there was meant to show that we could get along despite our partisan differences. an harris went at that last night as well. she would look at donald trump after he went on a rant about eating pets or how terrell this country is and going to help and she said we're better than this. we could respect each other. we don't need to go back to all of the hate that he's pitching the american public once again. so when you see that image of president biden, i guess, what do you think? >> well harris has a coalition that now spans the range of bernie sanders to dick cheney. that is a lot of territory. and probably the people in that coalition may not agree on very

much. but at least they agree on how things should be discussed, how things should be decided. what are the rules of the game. obviously sanders and cheney do not agree on what the right health care policy looks like but they could look at the right way of dieding health care policy. if one answer has 52 votes and the other is 48, even if you don't like the 52 votes, it wins. you try to amend it or try to revise it later or come back tomorrow. but tomorrow, if the side 48 picks up one more votes it is 52-48, the other way, they get their way. cheney and sanders could speak on that. and that moment with the hat, we're going to have to live together. and i think we've all observed in our private lives that the people who are behind trump are not as deranged as he is. he's bringing out some of the worst aspects of the american character to be sure.

but there are reserves of goodness in everybody. and it is not wrong to try to reach them and say, you know what, we're all going to have to work together and as fellow citizens, it can be done. >> david, thank you for joining us. i know i'm -- we're all just digesting that image together. so i appreciate you sticking on the fly with me, sir. thank you. >> bye-bye. coming up next, it is the conspiracy theory everyone is talking about. nbc news correspondent yamiche alcindor is talking about the petal gagss. carpal tunnel syndrome, and lower back pain, we wondered, could these be warning signs of something bigger? thank goodness we called his cardiologist because these were signs of attr-cm, a rare and serious disease... ...that gets worse over time. if you see any of the warning signs, don't wait,

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real life effect of migrants in ohio right now. joining us now, yamiche alcindor in springfield, ohio, for us. so, what are folks telling you there? >> reporter: well, good afternoon, from springfield, ohio, where residents here are really shocked and are feeling tension because of the situation here with former president trump's spreading the baseless claims that haitian immigrants are abusing and even eating animals here. i talked to a number of haitian migrants who are saddened and feeling pain from the fact that she's spreading these false accusations. one in particular who said that people are scared for their lives. listen to what he told me about other haitian immigrants. >> they're scared for their lives. some of them are asking me even yesterday, i got a friend calling me asking if he had to leave because he's scared for his life. so, another friend told me that

it seems he would have had some family coming to visit him but he's going to welcome them -- because it is not safe right now for him in springfield. >> so we should note also that the haitian migrants, they came to springfield legally through a number of different federal programs and they came here because the city advertised that they were new manufacturing jobs and this is an affordable place to live so they were welcome here and some residents said they don't like the change to city but they want poe resources but there is no evidence that haitian immigrants are doing anything to abuse animals. >> thank you for going there and talking to folks. it is important. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪