president trump who is calling for a shutdown. shutdowns never achieve the intended result. the result that the shutdowner, so to speak, intends. it doesn't work. it hasn't ever really worked. it's a preview if trump wins the white house, he believes in these things and causes chaos on legislation. >> shutdown maybe october 1st, which would be just a little bit over a month before the election. remember, everybody in the house is up for re-election, everyone come november 5th. jake sherman, good to have you. you keep me humble, my friend. >> thank you. likewise. ♪♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york.

from your local county office to the hallowed halls of capitol hill, conversations are right now underway about something that was a few years ago unthinkable here in the united states of america, the stuff we thought happens in struggling, fledgling democracies, not here. officials today everywhere bracing for the possibility of chaos around the 2024 presidential election. thanks to an ex-president who launched a coup attempt that ended in violence instead of conceding his defeat last time and is now priming his supporters to be shocked, shocked if he loses to a candidate whose entry in the race has thrown him for a loop. a candidate beating him in levels of enthusiasm, crowd size, most polls, basically any significant metric for a presidential campaign. the associated press reports that one suburban atlanta county is deploying local sheriffs at

early voting locations and panic buttons that connect poll managers to 911. more from that reporting, quote, california's los angeles county and durham county, north carolina, will have new offices with significant security upgrades for this year's election. they include bulletproof glass, security cameras and doors that open only with badges. election workers across the country also will have new procedures for handling mail, including kits of narcan, the spray used for accidental overdoses. in some places election workers are being trained in deescalation techniques and how to respond to an active shooter. all of this is in response to the elevated threat level against officials in the wake of the 2020 election and donald trump's big lie. here is the deputy attorney general yesterday. >> we are seeing an unprecedented and extremely

disturbing level of threats of violence and violence against public officials, including prosecutors, fbi and other law enforcement agents, judges and election officials. this is a point really that we have to underscore, the threats against election officials who are often simply volunteers. these are people who are simply volunteering their time to help us undertake the most fundamental right we have, the right to vote, the right that secures all the other rights. these are people who are being threatened simply for doing their job. it's wrong. it's unacceptable. and it should stop. we are doing everything we can to expose that and hold individuals who are perpetrating those threats accountable. >> here is what happened just this week on this front. nbc news reports, a senior law enforcement official confirmed that election officials in at least six states received

packages monday but none of the packages have been found to contain any actual hazardous material. secretaries of state and attorney generals offices and state election offices in nebraska, iowa, kansas, tennessee, wyoming and oklahoma were targeted. the return address identified the sender as the u.s. trader elimination office, that election officials who as deputy attorney general lisa monaco points out are volunteers, that they would be seen as traitors, is cause and affect. the result of a poison coursing through our democracy, the lie told by donald trump that the 2020 election was stolen from him followed by the lie that this election would be stolen and the person fomenting that is running for the white house again because of this, election officials are stocking up on narcan. they have installed bulletproof

glass and panic buttons. in washington, democrats are preparing for a possible showdown again on january 6, 2025. over on capitol hill, politico reports that democrats are, quote, hoping that kamala harris will win in november and they will flip the house. it would likely be hakeem jeffries holding the speaker's gavel as the process of certifying a victory gets underway. it's nagging top house democrats. mike johnson might keep his majority as harris wins and finds himself in a position where he could have struck the counting of electorate votes and possibly throw the election to the house under the constitutional provisions of the 12th amendment. johnson after all led house republicans in filing a brief after the 2020 election asking the supreme court to essentially overturn swing state results. now, he is leading a charge suggesting that undocumented

immigrants are voting en masse in what they view is an effort to sow doubt in the election. officials bracing for the worst and preparing to defend the way our democracy functioning before, during and after the 2024 presidential election is where we start. in a moment, we will be joined by the colorado secretary of state, and voting rights attorney mark elias. we start with "the new york times" reporter who has been on the beat for years now. nick, i feel like you have this extensive and vast body of reporting that takes us through the voter suppression laws, first championed and passed and signed into law in georgia, through the antics of non-certification, refusing to certify things being maybe beta tested in nevada. take me through the state of play today as we are less than 50 days ahead of a general election. >> i think unsurprisingly, we

are back in the state that really first caught national attention after the 2020 election, and that's georgia. the state election board in georgia, which is recently seen -- they have seen a 3-2 majority right wing majority take over the board. it's passing new rules that are concerning, not just democrats but republicans and election officials and everyone from the county level to the state level in georgia that could possibly disrupt the post-election period. we are talking about the certification, the counting of votes and the sending off of electors to the electoral college. last month, they passed a rule that would allow for local election officials to take a reasonable inquiry before they certify, which raised a lot of concern about whether that could throw certification into question. now they are scheduled to meet on friday. they have over a dozen new rules and new proposed agenda items. we are less than 50 days out of

an election. secretary of state raffensperger's lawyer sent a scathing letter to the state election board saying, you shouldn't change these rules. the board of every county election official sent a similar letter. we will see what happens friday with the state election board in georgia. when it manies could to concerns about the new laws, that's where we see the most action right now. >> nick, let me just play some of the sworn testimony from election officials from 2020, at least half of them republicans like brad raffensperger. >> it has all gone too far. all of it. joe asked for chris, a patriot, to be shot. a 20 something tech today has

death threats and a noose put outside saying he should be hung for treason because he was transferring a report on batches from an ems to a county computer so he to read it. >> about 45 minutes later, we started to hear noise outside my home. my stomach sunk. i thought, it's me. then it just -- we don't know what's go -- the uncertainty of that was what was the fear. are they coming with guns? are they going to attack my house? i'm in here with my kid. >> after the election, my cell was doxed. my wife started getting the texts. hers same in as sexualized attacks which were disgusting. >> we have various groups come by and they have had video panel

trucks with videos of me proclaiming me to be a pedophile and a pervert and a corrupt politician and blaring loudspeakers in my neighborhood and leaving literature both on my property but arguing and threatening with neighbors and with myself. >> i've lost my faith of security all because a group of people starting with number 45 and his ally rudy giuliani decided to scapegoat me and my daughter, to push their own lies about how the presidential election was stolen. >> i gained about 60 pounds. i just don't do nothing anymore. i don't want go anywhere. i second-guess everything that i do.

it has affected my life in a major way, in every way, all because of lies. for me doing my job. same thing i've been doing forever. >> nick, i played that because that is what donald trump achieved last time. without all the rules changes, the laws being changed in statewide in georgia and with this election board you are talking about. can you give us specific examples of how the laws have been changed to make that effort easier in 2024 for donald trump? >> sure. it's important to look at laws like what changed in georgia. reorienting the state election board to give it more control. taking the authority from local election officials or secretaries of state and handing it to partisan entities. removing processes that were trusted in the 2020 election,

like drop boxes, taking those out of the equation. we have seen that across the country. what i think is really important to look at now is not just how those laws changed but there's active lawsuits and active litigation to try to further change the rules. we are less than 50 days out. there's been lawsuits by the former president targeting mail ballots in nevada. ones that could arrive late as allowed by the state law. you have a grace period. they are trying to say anything that arrived after election day must be thrown out. that alone could disenfranchise legal votes under nevada law. what it could also do is it puts into question a certain bucket of ballots for lack of a better word. those could be used as evidence in a future challenge. we are seeing lawsuits trying to establish that there could be certain questions or numbers of ballots that would throw an election into doubt, at least that argument is being made. it's being made by the former

president on social media. as we kind of head into this final spring in the general election, these lawsuits are taking advantage of some state laws that have been passed and are going to really put that to the test. new federal laws that have been tested like the electoral count reform act through the courts in the first again election coming up in november. >> nick, stay close to the cameras for the next 50 days. we will need you. thank you for starting us off. i want to bring in the colorado secretary of state. one of the election officials who was sent a suspicious package under investigation. joining us, the voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket. mark, i start with you. pick up on the point about the frivolous lawsuits filed to throw into question the results in the minds of the base of supporters and amid that base, of course, for the people who

were inspired to travel to washington on january 6, because they believed that lies. we heard them testify before the select company, people who said he believed donald trump. tell me the state of play now, 50 days out from the election. >> donald trump used frivolous litigation in his career as a builder, in his career as a casino owner, to try to intimidate his adversaries and enemies throughout his career. one statistic that will put into perspective is in 2020, if you look from january 1 to september 16, basically a couple of days ago, the republican party and their allies filed 13 lawsuits. that's a lot to make it harder to vote. that was how many they filed in 2020. this year, they have filed over 80.

they are flooding the courts with litigation aimed at one thing and one thing only, making it harder to vote and making it easier for them in the post-election to contest elections. they are not going to get away with it. they are losing the lawsuits. democrats are fighting back. we're all fighting back. they are not going to succeed. but they are trying to weaponize the courts in the way in which they weaponized so many other institutions of government, to try to merge their political support for the election denier movement with an operational support, whether it be in court or god forbid we see another january 6. >> mark, one of the ways you have explained sort of then versus now is that last time, they went up against you 61 times, they lost 60 times. your cautionary note is that some of the attorneys are better. but the facts are just as flimsy. handicap the prospects for any legal success.

>> yeah. those 13 and 81 numbers that i said, that's pre-election litigation. in the post-election in 2020, we saw donald trump and his allies file 65 lawsuits. they lost 64. that was great. it was bad for the country that was put through that, but it showed the courts would hold and the courts would not yield to a barrage of frivolous litigation. the problem is since then republicans have been studying what they did wrong, in addition to not having the facts on their side. they have upgraded their legal talent. we are not seeing in court -- my law firm is involved in 50 plus lawsuits. we are not seeing rudy giuliani and sidney powell. the lawyers are better. they have upgraded. a lot of republican lawyers who i think were shocked and appalled by donald trump in 2020, they have capitulated. the republican legal establishment has capitulated in the same respect that we have

seen the republican party's elected officials capitulate. they are getting more access to more and better lawyers. my message is the same, which is that at the end of the day, there's nothing the republican lawyers are going to do that's going to change the outcome. in the end, kamala harris is going to get more votes and more electoral votes than donald trump. >> madam secretary of state, along the way, if that's the ultimate outcome, folks like yourself are seeing this threat environment persist and in some bays accelerate. tell us what it's like for you and your staff. >> first off, thank you for having me on. it's great to join you. we do see a consistent threat environment. to be very clear, the threat environment has been relatively consistent since the insurrection on january 6, 2021. to put it into context, i myself

have received nearly 1,000 death threats or violent threats since september of just last year. in colorado, we did receive one of the suspicious mailings yesterday. that did contain white powder that was then intercepted before it got to my office. the threat environment in itself is leading to election officials stepping down. it has led to turnover. folks come in in their places. we have county clerks ready to go, secretaries of state ready to go. i think we will have a great election with the uncertainty that donald trump has tried successfully to inject into the electoral process. >> i want to ask you more about the status of the investigation into what was sent to your office. i have to sneak in a break. stick around. there's so much more to show you, including liz cheney being on this side this time around.

there's no bottom for some of the folks, sara huckabee sanders trying to get under j.d. vance in a race to the bottom with another shameful attack on kamala harris and her family. we won't spend too much time on her. we will talk about the bigger political problem it represents for the republican party in their effort to win over women ahead in november. later, how a debunked local tale turned into front page national headlines, terrorizing one small town and the people who live there. the gop ticket continues to push their dangerous racist playbook. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. i'm not just an expert on eyecare savings, i'm also an expert in looking good.

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i think that there's no question that violence has no place in our politics. that is not a partisan issue. violence should have no place in american politics. i think what president trump said this morning has it backwards. when you look at what he did when he lost the last election, when you look at his attempts to seize power, when you look at the fact that he watched -- people need to know this. he watched television while police officers were being brutally beaten at the capitol, while the capitol was being attacked and invaded. and as his family pleaded with him to tell the mob to stop the violence that was being carried on in his name. he is a threat to democracy. there's no question.

the answer to that is to defeat him at the ballot box, to defeat him in the election. i think it's important for people to understand how high the stakes are. >> we are back with the colorado secretary of state and mark elias. you said you received 1,000 death threats since september. talk about your understanding of where the threat environment under which you have to do your job fits into donald trump's strategy. >> it's 100% part of his strategy. donald trump knows exactly what he is doing when he pushes out lies and disinformation about election officials, juries, judges, prosecutors. he basically sends a flag for his supporters to attack. if he did not know he was doing that initially, he does at this

point. this has been a marked pattern for at least the last four years. i will tell you, it gets scary when someone and 1,000 someones are telling you how they are going to come and kill you and your family for simply doing your job, you have to take it really seriously. the threat environment has taken a toll. colorado has seen a 38% turnover in county clerks since 2020, in part because of the environment. frankly, to a large extent, election officials -- i will speak for myself. we feel like we are alone. the doj pursued less than 20 cases since 2020. with that said, i will not be intimidated. i have not changed my course at all. if anything, it invigorates me. we will not allow folks who will try to use threats of violence or actual violence to tilt an election, to be successful. i think that election officials

all over the country have backbones of steel at this point. it's unfortunate. we should not accept this atmosphere of violence in this country. at the end of the day, americans have the power to put this country on the right course. that's by getting out and casting their ballots in november in the presidential election. >> this thing that you are talking about, doj only pursuing 20 cases is something i have heard from former doj officials, like andrew weissmann. if they were going to be true to what lisa monaco says in the tape i played, what do you and other election officials need for the next 50 days? >> we need state and federal officials to, number one, stop lying. people like donald trump, the speaker of the house, stop spreading lies. it leads to threats against our families. state officials and federal

officials to step up. that includes providing security in an adequate way, pursuing prosecution. here in the state of colorado, i have released a million dollars of grant funds to the county so they can have narcan if there's a letter laced with fentanyl so they are ready to go. they can upgrade windows if they decide they need bulletproof glass. i have led a law to make it illegal to have a gun at the polls, to threaten election workers. more needs to be done nationally and federally. we need more support. we have been sounding the alarm for four years. where is it at? with that said, we are going to persevere. donald trump and extremists have lost time and time and time again. what they fear most is the american people. that's why they are trying to suppress the right to vote, because the american people have all the power in the world. >> mark, it's insane -- it is

insane that she needs narcan and bulletproof glass. it is insane we are 49 days out and liz cheney is warning again about the role that mike johnson might play in refusing to certify. i love your optimism, but tell me what you worry about at this point. >> look, my job is to worry about everything. i'm worried about everything. there's nothing i don't worry about when it comes to elections. i am optimistic but i'm also realistic. i understand what it is donald trump is capable of. i think i understood what donald trump was capable of before, frankly, a lot of the media understood what donald trump was capable of. yourself excluded. you have done a service in educating your audience. it's something we need everyone in the next 49 days to educate their audience about these

threats, what it is that the secretaries of state are up against. here is the thing. the secretaries of state have steel backbones. the lawyers have steel backbones. the democratic party has steel backbones. we are not going to surrender our country to the threats and intimidation of donald trump and his supporters. we are not going to let the mobs that will -- that formed january 6th, but which were present before january 6th in places like detroit and in philadelphia, trying to intimidate election officials in georgia and arizona, we're not going to let them affect the outcome of the election. at the end of the day, donald trump is counting on people to give up. he is counting on the cynics to win. he is counting on people to say, you know what? i don't want to be part of this. here is the thing. everyone listening needs to make sure they are registered, they have a plan to vote and they vote. if everyone does that, kamala harris and the democrats will win.

>> mark, we have talked about this a lot as well. i'm going to say it. there is this desire that kamala harris win in a landslide to erase doubt. what i want to tell you as an ex-republican is that the doubt is part of the plot for them. there's no -- there won't be any more credible win for vice press harris. i wonder how you deal with having to sort of engineer a lie-proof victory. we look at their commitment to lies. we look at their ability to go on cnn and say, we created the story. they are lying in front of cameras and then going back to the same cameras and admitting it was a lie and proceeding anyway. how do you deal with that level of audacity and that level of brazen lying in the context of an election that hasn't happened yet? >> look, my job is not to

lie-proof victory. that's impossible. there's no amount of votes that would lie-proof a victory. donald trump said after 2020, he said he won six states he lost. pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, arizona, nevada and georgia, those were all state ez lost, all states he went to court and said he won and insisted on since then. since that time, he has added to that list of states he says he won, he added minnesota, a state he lost by 7%, new jersey, a state he lost by double digits and he said he believes the votes were counted inaccurately, he won in california, which is preposterous. i think some member of the media who interviews donald trump should ask him to acknowledge which state he thinks he did lose. i bet his answer is, there isn't one. he is going to insist he won every state. lie-proofing a victory is not possible. i want kamala harris to win in a landslide because it will make governing better. there's something about mandates that are important for governing. in terms of the election, kamala

harris and donald trump play by the same set of rules and those rules are what they are about the electoral college and the like. i believe she will win that election. she will win the popular vote. i think she will win overall. the thing people need to know is democrats are ready to defend that victory. we are ready to make sure voters can vote and make sure their votes count. >> madam secretary, i sincerely worry about what you have described here on this show, 1,000 death threats since september. i applaud you for doing your job in that environment. nobody should have to. i would implore you to come back if we can be of any service in shining a light on the environment in which you are doing this extraordinarily important work. mark, i know the threat environment under which you do your job. donald trump tweets about it. to both of you to be continued. we will have this conversation every day if we must. thank you for starting us off

today. they cannot stop themselves. they have no impulse control. another republican is out with a swipe at vice president kamala harris' family, which looks like a lot of our families. we will show it to you and talk about this next. the trump campaign alienating the female voters that remain in their column. we will bring you that story next. ♪♪ missing out on the things you love because of asthma? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions. allergic reactions may occur. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor.

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not only do my kids serve as a permanent reminder of what is important, they keep me humble. walk into a room like this where people cheer when you step on the stage and you think for a second you are special. then you go home and your kids remind you very quickly you are actually not that big of a deal. ours pretty good at it. my kids keep me humble. unfortunately, kamala harris doesn't have anything keeping her humble. >> that is who she is. that was sara huckabee sanders, displaying casual ugliness of the attacks on vice president kamala harris which never cease to take your breath away. she's the governor of arkansas now. she used her platform, privilege of being an elected official, to

attack not just vice president kamala harris' not being humble but to say the reason she's not humble is because she didn't give birth and she doesn't have biological children. despite the fact she's a parent. she's a parent to cole and emma emhoff. that casual cruelty is a hallmark, it's what you would expect from sarah huckabee sanders. championed repealing child protection laws. she was the white house press secretary. it reflects a broader brand of cruelty of the republican party which seems intent on alienating voters with modern families or blended families or people without children and all those childless cat ladies in pursuit of levying these attacks at vice

president harris. doug emhoffemhoff's ex-wife lea the defense of kamala harris. she wrote this. cole and ella keep us inspired to make the world a better place. i do it through storytelling. kamala harris has sent her career working for the people, all families. that keeps you pretty humble. joining our conversation, former assistant u.s. attorney and president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, maia wylie. joining us, host of the fast podcast, molly jeong fast is here. a line has to be drown around picking and choosing which families are the right families. this attack on modern families, which make up the majority of the families that people are in

or have made, it must be working somewhere for someone. you would think those are the kind of voters they would have locked up. this is a sign of political desperation to me. >> yeah. i agree with you 100%. i find it so offensive. if you can't confront your opposing candidate on policy, you attack them personally, and you attack a woman like kamala harris -- i will tell you a personal story when i first had contact with kamala harris. as a sitting senator. i was a professor at the new school as a senior vice president there. i had been asked by the new school to deliver the convocation to the entering first year class. i did so. in my convoy vocation speech, it's about how we be a we and not an us them.

i come off the stage and i get a text. the text is from senator kamala harris who i have not met. i know her sister. i assume that's how they got my number. she said, that was a great job. she was there for her stepchild's first day of college. tell me what a parent is and i will tell you it's the person who shows up because it's the right thing to do for the person you want to support whether you gave birth to that child or not. it's the person who says, i'm going to care and understand even if i have not had a child biologically, that childcare costs are a top expense that families are facing. you know what? if your childcare provider, you are probably earning $27,000 a year. in most major cities, that's your rent. you are probably a mother

yourself. saying, what can i do as a leader about that? she didn't have to have biological children to do it. to your point, so many of us have people we love who we did not give birth to as women who we care about and who we will show up for and we will vote for. that includes the young women we hope can live and survive an unexpected pregnancy and make a choice for themselves. if they have sewn up a christian nationalist extremist base, so if you can't come up with a way to express compassion for others, all you can do is cling to your extremism. >> to that point, it is a line that runs through it. right? sometimes they don't seem connected. j.d. vance saying in an interview that women should stay in marriages even if they are

violent. sarah huckabee sanders saying kamala harris couldn't be humble because she didn't have kids. she does have kids. at some point it stops being about their ugliness and it stops being about them and it becomes about us. this isn't just offensive to women who hear that and view it as some deliberate attempt at otherness. it's offensive to men. it's offensive to anyone. it's offensive to a stepkid. it is the kind of intolerance that at some point stops being about maga and starts being about the rest of us and what are we going to do in response? >> i would say, it's a narrow vision of what a woman is. of what you can be in this world. you have to have biological children. that, i think, is very anti-feminist. you have to be a certain way in order to be a woman. i would also add that it's a little ironic, because this is the party that's made it less

safe to be pregnant, that refuses to codify ivf, that refuses -- they are against the care economy, which harris talks so much about. they are not for early childhood stuff. a lot of the republicans governors have rejected federal funding for me meals for school kids. they are very -- i'm not going to call the entire party this, but it seems very anti-family and yet you are telling us that women to be women they must have biological children. >> it's unbelievable. there's so much more to get to, including your beautiful new book. we will show this. no one is going anywhere. we will be right back. no one ise we will be right back.

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for what's worth protecting, the hartford is here. to get your free quote, go to the buck's got your back. i, too, was blessed to have a stepmother. i wouldn't be here, i wouldn't be able to have normal conversations without a stepmother. i found that comment to be actually offensive. i don't know what more to say. i'm disappointed in sarah saying that. i have to defend somebody who is a stepmom. it's a tough job. reward that and speak of that in a high tone. >> sarah huckabee sanders lost the senior trump advisor talking about the indefensible cruelty of what they said about stepparents, by saying kamala harris couldn't be a humble person because she hasn't given

birth. we are back with maya and molly. maya, i feel like in the last 49 days, there's not a lot to reveal that's new about donald trump. you do get indications of where the campaigns are. i have asked vaughn hillyard this question, what's the project? it's clear melania is out again. she's beauiful and celebrating her naked, beautiful body. i applaud her right do it. i find it fascinating with 49 days to go, that was the message that the spouse of the candidate thought was most central. let me show you some of that.

are we no longer able to appreciate the beauty of the human body? throughout history, master artists have revered the human shape, evoking profound emotions and admiration. we should honor our bodies and embrace the timeless tradition of using art as a powerful means of self-expression. >> i don't know i got all that. yes, she's beautiful. i guess in her view she's as beautiful as the sculptures. you go, girl. your husband is on the ballot. in your husband's view, this election is everything. he says the country ends and this is what i mean, sarah, can you -- what are they doing? >> it is impossible to imagine that that happened would the his approval. i mean, the campaign's approval. maybe?

maybe? who knows. >> >> who knows. >> but it's a highly edited developed ad. this is not something she whipped together to put up herself. the only reason i'm saying that, because i agree with you. melania trump should be able to be who she wants to be. do what she wants to do and that includes taking her clothes off. no judgment there on her. but -- >> i don't think i'd ever put clothes on if i looked like -- right? if we're at the naked part of the show, i mean, i'm so happy to hear that message but, again, you are the spouse of the candidate who is running on the message that the country ends in 49 days and that's what you did today. >> but don't you think -- i can't help but watch that and think that this was some very ineffective, strange, weird attempt to project a more modern sense of understanding who women are and what they should and should not be able to do. >> to get back to people, sarah

huckabee said? >> yes. >> like, look, we're not all like crazy extremists. >> you have to give birth but you have to be beautiful. >> you have to be naked, be beautiful and have naked pictures taken of yourself. oh, by the way, the whole question of what mothering means, has there ever -- was there any talk or examination about what kind of stepmother melania trump is? i only say that -- i don't think it's a legitimate line of inquiry, but it goes back to the double standards here, which we were talking about off camera. which is the way the dialogue develops about who harris is or isn't and what she does or doesn't do, that never maps to the other side. that never says, well, okay, i don't think this is really the most important discussion to have, but if we're going to have it about one candidate, shouldn't we be having it about both? >> look. it's never too late to hold ourselves as media up for

scrutiny. anyone who errs or covers what sarah huckabee sanders said should note that -- >> to ivanka, don jr., tiffany -- >> eric. >> and eric. and her son is posting some pretty offensive stuff on social media, by the way. >> but i would just add that, look, this is a party that wants to ban books, right? they want to ban books. the so this cannot be taken in a vacuum. to say that the media is a somehow the villain. you are the wife of the presidential cab date. they want to ban books. certainly things you can't teach lgbtq stuff. you can't teach -- remember, they were at war with, you know, black history. i mean -- >> still are. >> still are. this is pretty wild stuff. and very, very out of the mainstream. to say that somehow it's the media's fault that she is getting shamed for, you know,

her naked body is kind of wild. and i would say like they're just -- it's not even that it seems like they're not working together, it's like they are running in two different earths, right? earth 1, earth 2. earth 1, he's running on this very socially far right agenda. earth 2, she's like why is the media being mean to me about my naked photos. >> which i actually missed that. your book is out now. we have to have you out for a whole -- i started reading it during the break. it's perfect. we'll have you back for a whole segment. it's "remember, you are a wiley." it is out right now. another break for us. we'll be right back. citi's industry leading global payments solutions help their clients move money around the world seamlessly in over 180 countries... and help a partner like the world food programme

as they provide more than food to people in need. together, citi and the world food programme empower families across the globe. right now across the u.s., people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. yes, libraries. we all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. that's why every book belongs on the shelf. yet book banning in the u.s. is worse than i've ever seen. it's people in power who want to control everything. well, i say no to censorship. and i say yes to freedom of speech and expression. if you do too, please join us in supporting the american civil liberties union today. for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for your rights and mine. including the right to read all manner of books.

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what is your message to j.d. vance and former president trump? do you support them as the republican ticket. >> i do. >> what is your advice to them about what to do with these allegations about eating pets in springfield that they keep repeating? >> they're very hurtful. it's very hurtful to people. people in springfield. hurt full to the asians who are working every day. i talk to some of their employees. i had them over for breakfast the other day, their employer. excuse me. they said they work very hard. they're very focused. they're family oriented. it's hurtful for them, very, very much. some of them are afraid. >> it's 5:00 in new york. as if what was happening to the people of springfield, ohio, wasn't an even lasting enough stain on our nation's dignity and standing in the world,

tonight new insight into the deep, dark depths of that humiliation, that disgrace, that manufactured, admittedly false controversy that has ended up up ending the lives of innocent people living and working in ohio because for the first time this afternoon the blanks are nearly all filled in. the rumors and the lies of haitian families eating pets, the trump campaign manufactured the match, lit the match and poured gasoline on the fire. "the wall street journal" reports this on the morning of september 9th springfield city manager was questioned by a staffer for j.d. vance about whether there was any truth to the bizarre rumors about haitian immigrants and pets. from that reporting, quote, he asked point blank, are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten?

i recalled, heck. i told him no. there was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. i told them these claims were baseless, end quote. by then j.d. vance had already posted about the rumors to his 1.9 million followers on x. he cut the post up and repeated an even more insistent version of the claim the next morning and that night trump shared the baseless rumor with 67 million americans during the presidential debate on the debate stage. now dozens of school closures and bomb threats later the trump campaign is being asked to explain itself. this afternoon in response to the wall street journal's story a spokesperson told nbc news this, quote, senator vance has received countless messages from residents of springfield on the disastrous effects of kamala harris's immigration policies and that they have created for their hometown. a shortage of affordable housing, stressed public

resources, declining public safety and spikes in communicable disease. it is shameful that the media is ignoring these real concerns while purposely twisting senator vance's words. not much of an apology. we'll note the statement made no denial that the wall street journal reporting is correct, and to stop right here for a second. donald trump didn't say any of those things on the debate stage. he said, quote, they're eating the dogs. they're eating the cats. this afternoon in raleigh, north carolina, j.d. vance debuted a new line of attack against legal immigrants living there legally. >> in the town of springfield, ohio, which i am honored to represent, we've heard from a number of residents that there are certain parts of town where they won't even drive because the illegal immigrants who have come in have made it unsafe to be on the roads. >> again, vast majority of them are here legally, they're all here legally.

it's important to remember the way donald trump has described immigrants though as, quote, poisoning the blood of our country or calling his domestic opponents, quote, vermen. we'll get further into how this reads out of a page of an autocrat's playbook and what that could portend should trump prevail in november. first, as we approach the end of a life cycle for a lie of donald trump, the so what if it's fake chapter of it all, which always comes, remember that like so many other contrived controversies, this was not a victimless endeavor. there are people, children's lives today, right now as we're on the air irrevocably changed because donald trump and j.d. vance willingly wanted to lie about immigrants. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends.

taylor popolars-did i botch that again? i know we've had that before. >> no, you got it. >> did i get it? we follow you so closely. great to have you back on another huge story. you spent five years covering ohio politics and ohio politicians, importantly traveled with j.d. vance the last few days. also joining us editor in large for "the 19," host of "the amendment," erin haynes is here. in john heilman fashion he will fly into the studio. he's host of the podcast "in poll particular for puc." taylor, take me through what j.d. vance has done to his campaign and to the people, more importantly, of springfield, ohio. >> well, nicole, i think what's really interesting about this story is there are two things to remember. vance is obviously donald trump's vice presidential running mate. he's traveling the country as

the gop vice presidential nominee. he still also is the junior senator from ohio. these are his constituents. everybody who's involved in the community at springfield now over the course of the last eight or nine days since vance started to make reference to these reported claims that local and state officials say are faceless, to donald trump saying it at the debate, neither vance nor trump have gone to springfield. vance even said when we were following him on the trail yesterday in michigan and wisconsin, he wants to go at some point but he acknowledges that traveling in with a large secret service deal and motorcade might not help out. the local mayor has said he doesn't want the major candidates to show up because there are so many strains on the community. vance has continued to amplify these claims and continued to insist he's hearing from constituents that are presenting him with evidence. his office has not been able to present evidence or the campaign. when i got to speak with him yesterday when we were on the tarmac in michigan, i asked him

as a senator of this state, have you been briefed? have you received data? have you received intelligence from people you represent in ohio to confirm where the bomb threats were coming from, to confirm any evidence there? and he wouldn't directly answer. he instead acknowledged that as governor mike dewine said earlier this week, that most of the bomb threats came from overseas, not all of them, but most of them, and the trump and vance campaign feels that because that happened and most of them were overseas that they can't in any way be associated with them. it's important to point out these threats did not start until after president trump talked about them on the debate stage which was one day after senator vance started to bring them up. thankfully the bomb threats have been hoaxes. it has really disrupted the community and it's prompted the state to bring in a lot of resources to try to restore normalcy. >> taylor, there's so much to unpack in what you've just laid out. let me come to you on "the wall street journal" reporting that j.d. vance was told from the outset that this was a lie and

the woman whose cat had gone missing found the cat in the basement so there were never any pets missing. there were never any pets who haitian immigrants living in springfield and working in springfield, ohio, had eaten and j.d. vance knew that the whole time. >> yeah. >> just track that for me. >> "the wall street journal" report was very thorough. it came out overnight, and yesterday when i had the chance to speak with vance i asked him directly. i said, the republican mayor of springfield, the republican governor of ohio, local state police and even the ohio department of natural resources said we have no evidence to support these claims. i said to him, what are you basing these off of? what he told me in essence is his office continues to hear from people in ohio who are making these claims. he told me, he wants to believe them, even if they're lying to him, he chooses to believe them over the press and other officials because he views there's some seriousness to

these claims. at the same time, nicole, there is a legitimate story about the struggles springfield has been facing. the schooling system, the local medical facilities, even traffic patterns have been disrupted by this influx. it's not a large community, about 60,000 people before the migrants showed up. vance argues there should be more reporting on that. local journalists including my spectrum colleagues have covered that. but then this obviously ballooned when they started pushing these unfounded claims. he still won't point to direct evidence just saying he keeps hearing it from people. there's a dozen claims he's heard from folks and according to them ten are verifiable and confirmable. he even told me yesterday that yesterday morning his office heard from somebody who was speaking to a member of the press. he said, i'm not going to tell you who that is but they were confirming. he says he's going to press forward because according to him he keeps hearing from his constituents. >> so he has ten officials --

i'm sorry to belabor the point. i want to understand that. the in j.d. vance's mind he has ten officials who will talk to only j.d. vance but not the republican trump backing governor or the republican trump backing city manager? just him? >> that's where it's a little tough. i should clarify, not ten officials. he's saying his office has heard from ten people. >> ten dead pets. >> 12 people -- >> 12 dead pets? >> what he claims are verifiable and confirmed claims. his office or the campaign has not presented evidence of that. as you eluded to, the city officials from the city manager, republican mayor to the ohio governor say they have no track record. local police have gone back through 11 months of 911 calls and reports and haven't been able to piece together what vance is continuing to claim. as the senator for that state much less the republican party's vice presidential nominee, it's pretty fascinating that he continues to lean into this and

push into this despite the fact checking from the local officials on the ground. >> do you have a dog or cat, taylor? >> i have a dog, her name is bonnie. >> if she went missing would you have pictures everywhere? >> definitely. >> are there any pictures of the ten allegedly missing cats or dogs? >> so we haven't seen any. "the wall street journal" report referred to a woman who had reported her cat missing and a reporter for the journal went and found her and she said, oh, after i thought the cat was missing, the cat ended up being in the basement, as you highlighted earlier. she even apologized to her haitian neighbors who she suspected had taken the cat. that's about the extent of the proof. i of course with every other journalist welcome vance and the campaign to bring this. if it's happening, it's serious. they are claiming these claims are there. vance even told us when we were in wisconsin another reporter asked him, isn't it up to you to

verify what you're going to broadcast because you have such a big megaphone? his response was that he thinks the media should fact check what the residents of springfield are saying eluding to the fact he doesn't feel like he has to verify stuff before he broadcasts it. >> erin haynes, to quote bill barr, there are no photos of the dead pets because it's bullshit. there aren't any dead pets. a vance spokesperson on tuesday provided "the wall street journal" with the police report in which a resident had claimed her pet might have been taken by haitian neighbors but when a report jer went to anna kilgore's house tuesday, she said her cat, miss sassy, which went missing in late august, actually returned a few days later, found safe in her own basement. j.d. vance for his part admitted to dana bash that he created this story to get the press to talk about it. i guess to taylor's reporting, erin, we might be talking about

the strains on a community and schools and the public services if he hadn't told a lie. it's the lie that j.d. vance told that has us focused on the absence of any -- any evidence of what donald trump said, they're, quote, eating the dogs, they're eating the cats. >> absolutely. that's what you need to be focused on, not the racist hoax. miss sassy didn't ask to be a part of it neither did the rest of the american electorate. here we are having to disprove, you know, law enforcement resources, resources that are having to be spent on this hoax because of election smearing? we absolutely should be pointing out that now -- >> erin, we're going to fix your audio so we don't miss a word. this conversation is too important. john heilman is here. i feel like it's important for

us not to get tired, right? i mean, this is so tiring and tiresome, the lies. >> it's beyond tiring. >> but there are real people that live in springfield. you don't have -- the haitian community that lives there is scared. i mean, the elementary school was targeted. so every family with a child in elementary school is scared this week. >> i want you to -- i've been thinking about this a lot and trying to think about what a decent, fantastical analogy would be, right? we live in new york city. there's a homeless issue here, it's a real issue. we have homeless people. strains on public service, humanitarian. issues related to public house, related to housing. >> mental health. >> mental health. economic issues. all kinds of things, right? if the mayor of the city held a press conference and announced that there had been some reports from soho where i live about cannibalistic humanoid dwellers

coming out of the sewer eating homeless people, the press said, that's incredible. that's an insane story. can you show us some evidence of that? if the mayor said, i don't know if it's true or not. some people called and said that. we're highlighting the homeless problem, that's a way to get you to pay attention. in any other generation, you would think the mayor was out of his mind and owe would be on a are one-way fast train to getting thrown out of office in the next election. that would be a ludicrous thing, that premise that it's somehow, a, it's okay to make up a story. in that case, he wouldn't be defaming -- there wouldn't be the racist overlay of it because you wouldn't be blaming some specific community of non-white individuals but you would still say that's wildly irresponsible, totally unjustifiable and there's no rational argument for it, right? you would say that the mayor had lost his mind.

i just keep coming back to that because that is kind of what j.d. vance is saying. it's fine if we lie about this and then we put the burden on the press to prove a thing that he knows isn't true. i mean, it's almost the definition of gas lighting. if the press was doing its job, they would find these people, even though he knows they're not real and he's kind of conceding that he's making this all up. >> yeah. but we're past that point in the story. >> here's the point when the press goes and covers the lie, he then accuses the press of disrupting the community and harassing the people in the city. i mean, it's -- there will be case studies written on this some day about what the textbook gaslighting conspiracy thee ri maga moment. in a weird way it's incredible it's coming from j.d. vance and not trump. trump has propagated it. the he's the core of the sickness, j.d. vance. i don't think -- i don't make

endorsements in races or whatever. if you are a citizen of the state of ohio right now, there's only one recourse for this, which is this kind of behavior is so radically irresponsible from the elected representative of the state of ohio that there should be one recourse here, when he comes up for re-election again, if he has to face re-election as a senator in the state of ohio, i hope people will remember this and factor it into their calculations. he cared so little that he was willing to engage in this outrageous, outlandish and horrifying act of gas lighting on this kind of intergalactic scale. >> well, i mean, i think the other piece of it is that it illustrates -- i mean, this story has everything about this moment because mike dewine, the governor, is talking about the residents. >> sure. >> they're his constituents. >> sure. >> all he can say to -- that was chris cuomo. all he could say to him was he's

hurt them. they're your con stiet went. in a traditional way being an elected official is about protecting your citizens. he's failed at the most foundational piece of being an elected official. he's letting another person hurt his constituents. he failed to protect them from donald trump. >> it's so mind boggling on so many different levels. people want to praise mike dewine. >> abject failure. >> i totally agree. it's funny that the bar is so low in terms of this is another way in which the normalization of trump is such a problem in this world. in any other world, that's what you would focus on. you would say, this is cause for recall for governor, you know? he's not doing his job at all, but the bar is so low that just telling the truth that there aren't a bunch of haitian pet eaters in springfield, ohio, that's considered a mark of courage in the republican party now, if you are willing to say something basic and true.

>> everyone gets treated on a curve. erin haynes, we had technical issues. we'll get those addressed before we talk to you again. taylor, we're so grateful that you are on the beat and covering the politicians in ohio who need coverage from a journalist like yourself. thank you for starting us off. thank you for invoking bonnie. there she is. the bonnie. >> ah. she loves carrying sticks around. >> i love it. don't they all? john sticks around a little bit longer. we'll try to work some heilman family dog photos in as well. when we come back, how donald trump and j.d. vance's ongoing attacks against the haitian community living in springfield, ohio, are not simply false, they're straight out of an authoritarian's playbook. tim snider has seen this move from auto kratz around the world. he's been warning us where we're heading for years. now he has a powerful book out

called "on freedom." vice president kamala harris broadening her coalition with the endorsements from more than 100 former republican national security officials who are calling donald trump, quote, unfit to serve. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ok y'all we got ten orders coming in.. big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant.. that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs.

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this will move the internet. ♪ ♪ ooh, ooh. -let's keep it professional. professional dancers! -ok! stay connected during your move with the best in home wifi. easily transfer your services in the xfinity app. bring on the good stuff. americans need to understand that they have to take trump both seriously and literally. he has said what he wants to do. he and his allies with project 2025, his desire to be a dictator, at least on day one. all of that is in the public record.

we're not going back to the, you know, romance with dictators that puts, you know, innocent lives at risk and america's security in danger. we can't go back and give this very dangerous man another chance to do harm to our country and the world. >> that call to action for americans to take donald trump, as she said, both seriously and literally, has never felt more urgent, particularly given the ongoing smears and threats against haitian immigrants in springfield, ohio, by the two men atop the republican ticket. two men who are running on their elaborate plans for deporting massive numbers of immigrants, even immigrants who are in this country legally like the haitian residents of springfield, ohio. make no mistake, it's not new. it is a deep cut from the dictator's playbook. by putin, xi jinping, victor

orban and dictators past and present targeting immigrants and immigrant communities is a go-to movie specially when the chips are down, which is why taking trump both seriously and literally right now, is so important, because the world has seen this movie before and we know how it ends if they prevail. no one knows the stakes better than our next guest. yale historian, tim snider, whose first book "on tyranny" is an essential user's guide to surviving authoritarianism. now he's out with a new book "on freedom" which "new york times" calls, quote, a companion to the earlier book, "on tyranny." in it tim snyder offers this warning. quote, we find ourselves at a turning point. whether we will be free will depend on us, not just on what we do, but on why we do it, our

ideals. tim snyder joins us now. you know the important role you and "on tyranny" have played in our ability to understand and cover the events as they come at us fast and furious. and so while you're here, we're going to talk about the book but i wanted to start by asking you about this flashpoint and these very real people being damaged by trump's lies about haitian immigrants and j.d. vance's refusal to apologize or to turn down the heat on this community of children and families living and working in springfield, ohio. what -- what is it that we can do and what is this tactic about 49 days out from the election? >> well, first of all, i just want to take your point that these are real people. you know, i grew up about 20 miles from there. i played basketball with kids

from springfield. these are real people trying to live normal lives in medium sized cities and towns in owe hey owe, immigrant populations are really crucial to helping people live normal lives, have prosperous cities, have small businesses. it's part of the way ohio works. doing this is a way to make ohio not work. if you are asking about the parallels, i think there are a couple of levels here. the most obvious one is the politics of us and then, where if you are on the hard right, if you are fascist, if you don't want to govern or have freedom, you pit your citizens one against the other as j.d. vance is doing now, get them to destroy one another. the only kind of government that's left is to stir on one side against the other. it's pretty clear that's how j.d. vance understands government. the newer thing here is the politics of total line. it's not that you are supposed to believe about the dogs and cats, you're supposed to not believe in anything. you're supposed to believe that

everybody is lying all the time and in that vacuum or in that total cynicism, then politicians like trump and vance can impose themselves because they're the best liars or they control the spectacle. this is what they do in russia. >> what does it say about the success or failure of an effort toward authoritarianism, that this tactic is trotted out and defended and amplified by trump and vance 49 days out from the election? is it a sign of political strength? >> i mean, it kind of feels to me like it's the time of year, right? it's the autumn of the year that you can divide by four and, therefore, it's the season of trump misinformation and russian disinformation and it happens efr four years on the dot. every year you can divide by four. i don't think it's a sign of either strength or weakness, i think it's a sign of what they know how to do and a sign of what they will continue to do. we have to remember that trump's entire campaign takes place in

the framework of a really big lie. the central notion of his campaign is that he never lost, that he's still really the president, that ordinary rules don't apply to him. within that cavern of mendacity, you can have other stories like this one. this is how they will govern. this is how they function. i think it's neither strength nor weakness, i think it's normality from their point of view. >> we haven't had a chance to speak to you since vice president kamala harris became the democratic nominee, but i always like to ask you where in a slide or a lurch towards autocracy you view our country. i guess i want to ask you in the context of what her campaign is about and where things stand, where do you think we are in if terms of our risk? >> well, i'm -- i mean, i don't have anything to do with the campaign. i can just say i'm happy that they're talking about freedom. i think president biden is right, that this is a race between democracy and tyranny.

even more fundamental than democracy is freedom. believing in a democracy is believing in a people that can be free and making its own choices. i think there is a very good thing that has a new candidate that has a fresh message not just from the government doing bad things but also they're edging towards this, freedom to. the thing that can bring us together is the idea of a future in which we're more capable to do all of the various things that we want to be able to do. i think a politics of the future is the only way to answer a politics of us and them and politics of false nostalgia. >> professor snyder, i wanted to follow up on that. another way of framing it is this. you wrote "on tyranny" we had an election, you were talking about every four years. we had a presidential election and we have to confront these questions, particularly acutely

now. the fall of 2020 was a surreal time because of the pandemic. donald trump was in office and had all of the powers of the presidency. in some respects he's more threatening now because it's post january 6th. can you compare how you felt about the state of the countries on the arc of autocracy. if you can cast your mind back to then versus now, are we stronger or weaker in trying to fight it off? are we in a better or worse place than trying to fight it off? >> we're better. we understand more of the phenomena. we've had more conversations like this about how these things work. in that way we're stronger, but he's stronger in that he now -- like back then he was trying to make some money, stay in power. now he's trying to stay out of prison. he wants to be in the white house until he dies. he wants to die in bed and he's strongly motivated. bad things are going to happen in november whether he wins or not. also back in the fall of 2020 we

didn't have so many americans living inside this big lie which they're doing now. another reason he's stronger now than then, he has cadres. that's different than 16 or 20. if he does come to power, things can change pretty quickly. we'll be moving quickly into a politics of dysfunctionality. everybody has to look up to a supposed strong man. doing that in all of the chaos is the only way to get things done. that's how i see it. >> could not be more stark, more dire than what you just articulated. we want to turn to the vote. we have to 123450ek in a quick break. we'll be right back.

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if we give up on the idea of truth, then we can't be free. in order to be free we have to realize there's truth and we have to struggle with ourselves to be self-critical. we have to work to understand the perspectives of others. that's what a democracy is going to be about. if we give up on truth, as trump and vance would really like for us to do, we have no way to defend ourselves against power. truth is the last resort in defending yourself against power. if we give way to spectacle, those who have wealth or power already are always going to win in the end. we're seeing both -- with what trump and vance are doing now, we're seeing how all of reality

could look later on. we're also getting the suggestion of how you fight back, which is by believing there is such a thing such as truth. creating institutions like local journalism, for example, that can help us out. >> tim, your first page of "on tyranny" is something i bring to work every day and constantly questioning, what are we giving away without being asked to. the what from "on freedom" which feels as profound and perhaps even more deeply personal do you want us to carry with us as we go about trying to cover this moment in our country and in our politics? >> thank you for that. "on freedom" is about what it is we should have and how we can do the right things. i'm trying to claim the word freedom, which we use for a much bigger, brighter, positive idea and that is that freedom and government go together.

things can go really badly, and they might, but they don't have to avoid being bad. we can actually have a much better future than we think. if we understand freedom rightly as a reason to cooperate, as a way to govern towards the future. the future can be very much better than we can imagine right now. the present moment is dark and risky. i think it's also full of promise. our national commitment to freedom, if we understand it the right way, can open things up so that all of us can have much better lives. that's the thing we begin in the book. >> there is such an obvious intersection. what harris's campaign is about. do you see the reaction to her and her candidacy. she assembled.

>> using it a few years ago. >> she uses the word. i find it hard that she and her team are trying hard to turn the conversation towards the future which is better and more joyous. fight cynicism with cynicism. you're going to lose because the other side is better at that stuff. it's nice to work together.

on the basis of true understanding to the world, you can bring better value sets together. new ways to do things. your actions as an example. >> what about you? are you optimistic that the things that allow for a free press to exist in this country, there's only one candidate running on those things, right? donald trump has for years one of the most consistent things he believes, people like us are enemies of the people. are you encouraged this is catching on with a very diverse, ideologically speaking thing. >> i think i'm like tim snyder a bit. i don't know how at this moment

there's no question kamala harris is performing and catching all of the wire. the race is just still too close and i've been doing this for 30 years. all of these trends for a long time. i am like a lot of voters. what we've seen from donald trump, the race could be this close. it has focused on freedom. there are tens of millions of people in the country, hundreds of millions potentially, hao will who don't care.

it would tear us down in a heartbeat. the hope i find on one side is matched equally by the disheartening matter. >> we have clarity. tim snyder, your books, your insights are such a gift. we are so grateful to have you here. tim's new book is called "on freedom." it's out right now. another large number of republican officials out today with endorsement of kamala harris. that story is next.

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another brand-new batch of endorsements for vice president kamala harris. 48 days before by 100 republicans. national security and foreign policy officials from across the last four administrations, including donald trump's praised kamala harris as having the, quote, essential qualities to serve as president that donald trump does not. and they warn, quote, we firmly oppose the election of donald trump. as president, he promoted daily chaos in government, he praised our enemies and undermined our allies, politicized the military and disparaged our veterans. he prioritized his personal interest above american interests, and betrayed values.

donald trump's susceptibility to flat ri and manipulation by vladimir putin and xi jinping, unusual affinity for authoritarian leaders and chaotic national security decision making are dangerous qualities. he is unfit to serve again as president or, indeed, in any office of public trust. we're back with john heilman. so i won't get ahead of your reaction. the ragan alumnae had endorsed the national security. >> i feel so much more comfortable. it's behind her if the numbers are a little bit better.

biden was in 2020 and the lead he had on donald trump. i trust the polls and we know that the electoral college is tilted towards republicans. we know there is a structural advantage and the state of pennsylvania, she had a really good poll there the other day. no one in democratic politics and understanding pennsylvania and how hard it is to get there with that state. it doesn't feel comfortable there. everybody has a not in their stomach about pennsylvania and for the sake of the country, i would not like to have a knot in my country on that. can i put you on the spot. >> sure. >> really? >> i guess. i said i that would be naked too

if i looked like milania trump so what else could go wrong. >> you do not speak for this person or have insight about this person but there soenl run republican left in the country. i think all of the endorsements are good. momentum is good. i don't think there is that much suburban republicans who are soft republicans what are still undecided who are swayed by a bunch of people they naefr been swayed by before. and i think they would be swayed by george w. bush. i knew him back then and i covered him. i don't understand -- i understand he's waiting for late october. but i don't understand how guys doesn't get in the game here and give an endorsement. >> do you want me to try to explain it. >> yeah. i want the whole thing. >> yeah. if i had to try to -- look, i think as someone who gave speech after speech about democracy, as

someone who saw election results come in that around the world that he maybe didn't like or didn't think were good and said, no, they voted, this is who they voted for. if you believe in voting, if you believe in elections, if you believe in democracy, and your george w. bush or your you or me, there is only one person on the ballot in november who believes in democracy. there is only one running on democracy and that is kamala harris. so on what i believe to be the most important thing to him, democracy, she's such a clear choice. i think part of him thinking that his time in the arena has come and ended and that it doesn't matter and that it might make it worse. that he -- so i don't want to be predictive. but i believe in terps of what i thought was most important to him and that is our democracy and the idea of democracy, that she's the only person running on the things that he told us he cared about most. >> i will say this, i'm not

playing hide the ball here but i will say for the benefit of an audience, if the harris campaign had in in the bag, they would not have released it yet. if you had it, what you would do is release -- the colin powell endorsement for obama, if he hasn't done it yet, it doesn't tell you anything. it is interesting because i think it is a big test for him. >> i have no idea what he will do either. john heilemann, thank you for spending the hour with us. another break. we'll be right back. us. another break. we'll be right back. along with clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today.

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