s's been convicted of murder. but i know in my heart that she didn't do it. andrea canning: craig's sister robbyn is left trying to make sense of it all. the darkness that destroyed that big family, a family that once had so much ambition and promise. robbyn: it's just, it's heartbreaking. nobody wins. nobody wins in this. i mean, this is a family divided like no other. yeah. and that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. [music playing] good morning and welcome to the saturday edition of chennai

it was a really busy week. so let's get right to it, some of the conversations you might have missed. billionaire mark cuban, a kamala harris supporter, appeared on a cnbc squad box and shared his thoughts on the vice president's vision for the economy. let's take a listen. >> how much more do you think the public knows now, and how much more do you think the public should know? >> obviously, she is talking more, giving speeches, she was very clear about tariffs right there and she's got 40 days to communicate about other things. think of this as a business and she is the ceo. she went from lack of favorability, lack of awareness, and way behind donald trump, to here we are, 50 days later from where she started, she is oh worst tide, people on her economic policy, she was by trump 20%, now she is behind 11%. she is making

progress. if she just continues along the trend, the trend is her friend, that means, she is doing the right thing. she will keep communicating new ideas, new elements. she was a lot more specific on tariffs, and where she stands. the difference between her donald trump, donald trump will say what is fitted to the audience. when we talked to her and her team, she moves back and her team does a full analysis. >> peter. >> i think that is a fair point. she has made progress in terms of the economic debate with trump. he owned a debate for a long time, harley again by repetition, saying over and over again, it is the worst economy. when that is not the case. >> the facts matter not to the people who are supporting him, they don't want to hear it. even before covid, among postwar presidents, he ranked seventh, among postwar presidents behind jimmy carter when you look at gmp. and yet, he was allowed to go on

mainstream media outlets and keep saying, i have the greatest economy of all times. >> he has repeated it so many times even democrats are beginning to believe it. it is a remarkable thing. it was a good economy, not the greatest. lots of things were good, a lot of things were problematic. >> getting a lot of help with that repetition, by the way. let's bring in coanchor of "the squat box," andrew's work in. mark cuban, continue, tell us more. >> i think that line where he says, the trend is your friend, from the folks i was talking to last night, so the speech is on the interview with stephanie ruhle, the question is, do the independents, do those folks in the middle, who weren't sure which way they would go, does this push them over? it definitely made, i would call some reluctant pairs support is less reluctant, meaning, they found that and said, you know what, they are behind what she is doing. she now has an economic plan,

or at least we understand the economic values she has in a way we did not before. i think you will hear more from her the next couple of weeks about that. i am sure there will be people who will debate about the specifics, there was a line in her speech yesterday where she said, she was a capitalist, and she was for free and fair markets. that was music to the ears of folks who weren't really sure where she really stood. they heard people call her a progressive, and then to hear her say that, we have been hearing from a lot of folks inside her campaign that she was going to attack from the center, but was she really? this is, for some degree of the world of business, a sigh of relief. yes, she will have higher corporate taxes then former president donald trump would be pushing for. at the same sense, there is a sense right now you will have divided government , anyway. that is another thing going on i think people don't fully appreciate. for those people worried that

she will be taxing people like crazy or something like that, that will be very hard to put in place too. the feedback i heard from the business community last night was very, very positive for her, pretty much across the board. they want to know more, but they were feeling better. again, i know this is a vibes campaign, but the vibes were better. >> andrew, what have you and i been hearing from ceos, business owners for 15 years? when barack obama was president, our democrats' policies during the trump presidency, or during the biden presidency, they are going too far left, they have been taken over by the progressives, joe biden is a progressive, ken matt harris is a radical, of course, donald trump takes it a step further and says, marxist or communist. when a politician or the democratic party says, i

am a capitalist, i am going to cut taxes for small businesses, i am going to cut taxes for people building homes, i'm going to give free-market incentives to build 3 million new homes in 40 years, and when she says, the federal government can fix anything, i go back again and peter will remember this very well, bill clinton going, the air-- and every republican died laughing and said, nobody will believe that! but clinton attacked at the center, we balanced the budget four years in a row and i just don't think people should underestimate what she said yesterday. >> i will also suggest one other thing, neither of these candidates talk about debts or deficits, which is something i think voters care about in some way or another, maybe they don't care too much about. in truth, if you really listened to her yesterday talk about taxes, who will try to balance

the budget, or get closer to that, she is. she talked about higher corporate taxes. clearly, she talked about higher taxes on the very wealthy. that may make the very wealthy frustrated. she also said something, i am not against them being wealthy, i am not against success, i just want to figure out a way to tax the system in a fair way. i think that to some degree resonated. i am sure there will be selfish folks who are super greedy who don't like the idea of it, but when you start to think about what is the more practical approach to all of these things, she definitely laid out her case and i think it landed to a large degree. >> when you listen to people like scott, who will tell you that the system is rigged for billionaires, for multinational corporations and rigged against small business owners, and people building their business and being successful, that is a message i think lance with a lot of, even business owners.

>> you look at those small businesses and the $50,000 is a piece of it. when you think about small businesses, the goal is to make them big businesses. that is the implied nature of what kind of incentives she is trying to put in place. i think when you start to hear these different pieces, i am a capitalist i care about free and fair markets, i care about small businesses, i am trying to figure out how to get housing supply better. by the way, the housing supply issue is the inflation issue. people forget about that. one of the things you have to deal with is housing supply. a lots of moving parts here i think are starting to jail and come together. fairly, there was a lot of criticism the last couple of weeks. we did not have it all jelling together. we had little pieces. i think some pieces are coming together, the truth is, we will have to hear more to get the full puzzle to really fit. >> as always, thank you very

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mr. secretary, i'm curious, are you aware, are you getting any information on the status of the remaining hostages, the conditions there, and how many are even alive? >> there are, to the best of our information, many hostages in gaza alive and who we desperately want to bring back to their families and back to their loved ones. get out, and this remains for us, a priority, including for the american hostages who are there. my number one responsibility, the president's number one responsibility is to them. that is why, among other things, getting this cease-fire agreement done is so essential

to get them home. we know they are there, we want them back. >> mr. secretary, you said that a cease-fire would benefit everyone, does that include regimen then yahoo? >> i believe it does. >> does he see it that way? >> do you think benjamin netanyahu believes the cease- fire actually benefits him, or does he see it at the end of his career and at a time he has to face indictments? >> joe, i am not going to speak for him. i will not put my head in his, or anyone else's for that matter. when it comes to the cease-fire in hezbollah, clearly it benefits everyone involved, but looking from the israeli perspective, they are number one objective, as i said, to make sure those 70,000 really israeli to have been voiced from their homes, had their villages and homes destroyed by fire coming across the border from hezbollah come of this is the way to get them back home,

to make sure that they can go with confidence, knowing there will not be a line of fire. this is something, really animating this society. in fact, probably as much, if not more focused, on lebanon then there is on gaza. i think someone who delivers that, yes, that is going to be to their benefit. >> this morning, we have been talking about the worst-case scenario in the ukrainian war with russia, the possibility that vladimir putin would use it to clear weapons. let's talk about the worst-case scenario in the middle east. speaking as a conservative, that is what we usually do, look at the worst-case scenario and try to work back from that to try to stop it from happening. james baker once said, a president's first priority is not having a nuclear war erupt on their watch. let's talk the middle east. worst-case scenario, iran finally decides it is going to get involved and help hezbollah. what does a regional war with iran fully engaged look like in

the middle east, not only to israel, but to the region, and the world? >> this, joe, is exactly what we need, and are working to prevent. because a full-scale war in the middle east, involving not just iran, but all of its many proxies, bringing in other countries, having lots of implications for us, for the many tens of thousands of americans, hundreds of thousands of americans, who live in different countries of the region, that is a picture i don't think any of us want to look at. as i said a few minutes ago, this is exactly what has been animating us since october 7th, not only gaza, not only making sure that october 7th never happens again, but making sure this court does not spread. on repeated occasions, we have come close to that happening. our engagement, our deterrence on forces we have deployed in the region, prevented us from

going over the break and getting into full-scale war. that is why we are so focused on cease-fire. we are-- it is not just us. the g7 countries, the european union, the arab countries, everyone is speaking with one clear voice about the need to get that cease-fire in the north. similarly in gaza, the quickest path to getting things done that everyone wants that benefit everyone, would be through the cease-fire that we are working to negotiate. >> i want to turn to ukraine briefly, if you have a reaction, in the last hour or so, president netanyahu's office put out a statement he deemed incorrect answer, the idf would continue fighting, quote, full force. >> again , i can't think for him. i can just say that the world is speaking clearly for virtually all of the key countries in europe and in the region on the need for the cease-fire. obviously, i will be seeing israeli officials later today in new york. we have been engaged with

everyone in the region, the entire team, the national security advisor, jake sullivan, middle east hands, our relief, all of us at the president's direction, working on it. what we are saying, what the world is saying is very clear and we will be working with israelis and all parties about the rest of the day. >> want ukraine, president zelenskyy had a meeting with president biden earlier today. his task will be to use u.s. missiles with longer-range deeper into russia, will the u.s. give that authorization? >> every step along the way, ever since the start, actually before the start when we saw the russian invasion coming, we wanted to make sure ukrainians had what they needed to effectively defend themselves. we got the stingers before the russians came in, they were able as a result to prevent russia from running over the country. every day since, as necessary, we have adapted and adjusted, depending on the battlefield. depending on what russia was

doing, where it was doing it. the president will see president zelenskyy a little later today in washington and he will hear from him on this victory plan he is putting forward. we will look very carefully at that. i heard talking a little earlier on the program about some of the things working very effectively. he is exactly right, the drones have been extraordinarily effective. we just made an investment of about $1.5 billion immediately in the production of ukrainian drones. that will produce over 10,000 drones in ukraine for the next several months. when we see the news, that is very effective. we want to make sure they have what they need to deal with the russian aggression and make sure ukraine is in a position of strength if necessary to keep fighting, or if there is a negotiation that it is able to approach that negotiation from strength. >> briefly, before we let you go, mr. secretary, we are from the republican presidential campaign getting louder now. talk that perhaps yesterday,

president zelenskyy is here to hustle the united states for money, we ought to withdraw this from president trump, you get a deal with putin the day he is elected. can you articulate for viewers who may wonder why so many taxpayer dollars are going to ukraine, and why you believe it is important that the united states stands with ukraine? >> really, two things are going on here, an aggression against ukraine and the ukrainian people. i think many of us want-- to see the country trying to bully a smaller one, we want to do something about it. fundamentally for the united states, the other thing being addressed are the principles that the heart of the international system that are so necessary in keeping the peace. we are here in new york, u.n. general assembly. the united nations was created after two world wars to make sure there would not be a third. the countries came together and agreed to basic rules. you can violate the sovereignty of another country. you can't go on racist borders,

dictate to another country what it stresses will be. that is what is happening in ukraine. if we allow that to go forward with impunity then we opened pandora's box. it is open season for any aggressor around the world. they say come up with to get away with it, i can get away with it. that is a world of conflict we do not want. two other things, this is not the united states doing it alone. it is ukraine doing the fighting with 50 countries supporting them, were actually contributing more collectively than we are. those dollars we are spending, most of those dollars are being spent here in the united states, building the weapons the ukrainians need. president zelenskyy was justin's grandson, thanking the folks making some of the things necessary to defend his freedom, and also our freedom, because that is a frontline in the fight for freedom. that is a frontline in making sure we have a world that is not riddled with conflict, not just here or in europe, but many other places. >> the new threat now from fulton, does that worry you?

>> it is totally irresponsible, and i think many in the world have spoken clearly about that. he has been rattling the nuclear stapler, including china in the past. i would say, especially to do that now, while the world is gathered in new york, including talking about the need for more sovereignty, i think that will play very badly around the world . coming up, we will dig into the new reporting from "the new york times," with the title, as former president donald trump demanded foes, he often got them. you are watching "morning joe: weekend." we will be right back. back. . farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection,

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your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel. nothing beats it. i recommend pronamel active shield because it actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients. try pronamel mouthwash. make no mistake, this election was stolen from you, from me, and from the country. >> there was never a second of any day that i did not believe that that election was rigged. it was a rigged election, and it was a stolen, distracting

disgusting election in this country should be ashamed. we've got to stop the cheating. if we stop that cheating, if we don't let that sheet, i don't even have to campaign anymore, we are going to win by so much. in the meantime, a victory. >> what do you call that? i'm wondering what you call it that. and for those people that say, nothing happened during his term, january 6th happen in his first term, an attempt to overthrow american democracy. to throw out a presidential election because he did not like that outcome, happened. all of those things happened in the first term. there are people actually riding this weekend? and on bill marr going, oh nothing really happened in the first term. we survived. yeah, we survived. democracy survived, in spite of donald trump. democracy survived inside of his efforts with

federal courts, people in the media, local republican officials in michigan, in georgia, and pennsylvania, yeah, we survived. we survived in spite of everything that donald trump try to do in the first term. let's bring in right now, "new york times" investigative reporter michael chin, his latest piece entitled, quote, as president, trump demanded investigators of his foes. yet another lie. >> it wasn't so bad. >> nothing happened, nothing happened, it was not so bad. we got through. we got by, in spite of donald trump, who again, try to prosecute hillary clinton repeatedly, try to prosecute harris repeatedly, try to prosecute others repeatedly, and you have a piece on just that. >> so, we went back and we

looked at his attempts to weapon eyes the government, because folks that are trump allies say, this is just bluster on the campaign trail. but when you look at the first term, there is not just a sustained effort by trump to weapon eyes the government. a lot of what he wanted done actually did happen. now, ultimately, they ran into the fact that they did not have enough evidence to indict people , and could not bring them into court, but a lot of those people , trump wanted investigated were investigated for exactly the things he wanted them to be looked at. trump wanted to use the irs against his enemies. james comey and annie mckee were both the subject of highly unusual invasive audits. the irs says, there was no political meddling in this. the james comey was a subject

of a leak investigation that trump wanted. john bolton was the subject of a criminal investigation that trump wanted. michael cohen was put back in prison when he refused to not publish a damning book about trump. hillary clinton had to ultimately sit before john durham and ask questions from that special counsel about all the conspiracy theories that trump had pushed about the clinton campaign. when you look at the totality of this, and you look at what trump tried to do behind closed doors, and the way he also tried to push the justice department publicly, those things ended up happening. what we were trying to say in these thousands of words that we published was that, sure, people say if he comes back, he might do this, but we are saying, it already happened. this has already happened. that can be used as a template

to see how he would act if he came back. because we know that the guardrails that were there, or those people that tried to be guardrails in the first term, would certainly not be there in the second. >> mike, i guess the question is, well, there are many questions, but the key question here is, you talk about this a fair amount, what trump learned from his time in office, as you see, a lot of the things demanded in office, he got them, but ultimately, the potential damage were mitigated by some other factors, whether it was someone who tried to interpose themselves between those investigations, leading where trump might have wanted them to leave. if trump were a student of his own presidency, in a rigorous way, and he has people around him who are, what are the ways in which a second trump term, specific areas of trump would say, i need to get rid of that person, i need to make sure i have a stooge in that job, what are the key posts where trump can knock

down the institutional barriers that did keep him from the worst possible outcomes? >> i think the mcgann is a great example. mcgann is truly yet champion of the federal society of the movement to make the courts more conservative. the reason the supreme court is the way it is today because of don mccann. the federal courts were remade because of what don mccann did. don mcgann had a line around the rule of law. and in these memos that we published, excerpts of the secret white house memos that mcgann's lawyers drafted, which they wrote for trump, and in them, don mcgann is not an enabler of donald trump trying to use the rule of law and the criminal powers of the justice department, the fbi, and irs against enemies. he is someone who draws a line around that. and even though don mcgann is a champion of conservatives, and of those who are so happy with

the way the courts were remade, don mcgann would have no place in a second trump term, because he was someone who would not go that extra distance to do those things that trump wanted. don mcgann went into the mueller investigation, told them everything that he knew, but also stood there and said no to trump. obviously, a guy like john kelly, no place in a second trump term. those types of people would not is not be there, but you would find enablers, because these folks have had a running start over the past four years to sort of look at what happened in the first term, and what they can do if they came back. i think what you see in the final weeks of trump's presidency, is someone who sort of finally figured out, sort of completely unshackled. look, he did a lot of things up

until that point that were extraordinary and highly unusual , but the behavior in those final weeks were sort of a realization of, oh, there is more i could have done. there is more i could have gotten away with. >> michael, this behavior is parallel in other countries, and appelbaum, who recently came out with another book, "of todd chrisley inc. ," told this to the guardian, it is often the case, the second time it is worse. chavez in venezuela made one attempt and he went to jail. the second time, when he was released, he knew to do a defoliant to avenge. the second, and hungry, he was prime minister one term and loss, and when he came back, he seemed determined to make sure he never lost again. the second time often is much worse. that is the argument we are trying to make here. "new york times" investigative report michael schmidt, thank you very much. we appreciate your coming on this morning. we will be right back with

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it is a scene of unspeakable horror. a barn in mississippi, that was the site of one of the notorious killings in american history, that is where 14-year-old emmett till was tortured and murdered on august 20th, 1955. his crime, allegedly whistling at a white woman. the two white men charged in

till's murder were acquitted in what many call injustice. decades later, the barn itself sits on the property of a dentist. for generations, few people knew of its significance, including that dentist. in the new book, "the barn," the secret history of a murder in mississippi author writes this, the barn where till was murdered was just some guys barn, full of decorative christmas angels and duck hunting gear, sitting in there in sunflower county without a marker or any sort of memorial, hiding in plain sight. in the book, he chronicles his travels back to mississippi to uncover several unknown truths about that infamous crimes. we also explore how many other sites have been forgotten or erased by history. and mark wright thompson joins us now, senior writer for espn. also with us, host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. good morning to you both. congratulations on this book.

it is taunting and chilling. this barn set i guess 23 miles or so from where you grew up in mississippi. of course, you did not know the significance of it, as you say, the guy who lives there did not know the significance of it, what started you on this journey? how did you learn of this barn? >> it was during the pandemic and some guy that works for the emmett till interpreter city asked me if you have ever been to the barn. i said, what barn, he said, we need to take a ride. i went over there and found-- i don't know if you guys have been to memory sites in the world, but i found that it felt like a vessel that carried some sort of existential truth about our past, our present, and it was so haunting and menacing, just sitting there unmarked, i got obsessed with it and started doing this. before, it was a magazine assignment or a book it was something personal, if i am going to live in this

place, i need to know about. >> people built we know everything there is to know about the torture of that man, 14-year-old emmett till, there is so much more you layout in the book. what did you find as you laid out this path? >> i found both a macro and a micro thing. the macro is that there were many details that not only were unknown, but had been intentionally erased. the murder weapon was sitting in a safety deposit box in a bank in greenwood, mississippi and the barn was unmarked. and then, that erasure really hits hard, because he realized, the reason we don't know so many details of the story is very intentional. one of the things the book does is try to map the history of the erasure, and in the fight of till's family members, reverend parker, gloria dickerson in mississippi to try and find that erasure. >> you know, i think, wright , i have gotten to know mamie till

. obviously, many years later, i was just about being born when this happens. she talked about how it was just normalizing, not talking about what happened, people who had knowledge of what happened in mississippi talk about that, because we are in a different climate now, where we are seeing polarization of racism, where people just go with nate knew what happened with emmett till, they knew how it happened and who, but it was normal to keep it quiet in mississippi around that area. >> the word that comes to mind, it is almost over matter. it is almost a code of silence, as opposed to silence. when you think about the story the defense counsel told, mamie till sitting in this courtroom, and the jury agreed with the defense counsel, that this was all a hoax by the naacp and the communist party that they had gone and found the body and throw it in the tallahatchie river, that may be till had been bought off with insurance money, every one of these

insurance cropper's work some type of deep plan, people were more willing to believe an insane conspiracy, then a simple truth about themselves. >> they were calling it fake news, i guess. >> that is exactly right. the parallels are really shocking. >> wright, this event that you captured so incredibly in this book, one of the best books i've read in a long, long time, "the barn," occurred over 70 years ago in your home state. it is almost as if you can feel emmett till, his shadow, his memory through the ripples of leaves, wind blowing through the trees in mississippi. has mississippi changed that much, though? >> that is the million-dollar question, and the book is an exploration of that. i think somethings, cosmetically, has changed, but i think some of the jewels soul remains the same

. and until we are honest, until we can tell the story, this is who we are, this is what happened here, there is no real hope of even starting the process. you ask if mississippi has changed, i don't think, i would be curious what you think. i don't think we can even start to change until we can say, this is who we are, this is what happened here. let's stand on a tiny postage grout of truth and let's talk about who we really are. and i don't think we have started a conversation. the book is a tiny prayer, a pimple in a big lake of hope that that conversation can happen. >> let's talk about this phenomenon of memory holding. it extends beyond mississippi, a national phenomenon. we are still dealing with it overtime. you trace in this book, do you think today, if another tragedy like this were to happen, what we as a people handle it better? >> no. we see it over and over. we see it every single time

something like this happens. you read the news stories from august through september 1955, it could have been the summer of george floyd, it could have been trayvon martin. it could have been almost anything. not only are we not handling it better, one of the things that was really shocking to me to get into all daily newspapers and archives and go through this, is this box you beat by beat through the idea the arc of the moral universe towards tribalism, and that to me is one of the major subparts of the story, because of erasure, we are just doomed to in circles. >> and i think that is the significance of wright's book , had it not been for a girl videotaping with a smart phone, george floyd, we may not have gotten convictions there, look at what happened to breonna taylor. i can name cases that are being solved and not being solved, unless you have such evidence

like that, that is light the timing of this book i think is so important, given this election in which way we will decide to as a nation. >> one of the things i've always admired about you, with something like this happens and i turn on my tv, you are there. it makes me think about the hope it must take to show up with a new group of people who are dealing with something for the first time that you have been dealing with overcoming over, and over again. it makes me think about amy till , and the sheriff in mississippi saw that body and they tried to bury it immediately. they knew. and the governor of illinois, the mayor of chicago stepped in and brought the body back to maybe mamie till. so, the bravery of her, that the world to see, and opening that casket. i mean, those pictures are shocking. i think everybody who is involved in telling this story to me because there are a lot of people and i am just one tiny piece in a group of people doing this, the guiding principle is to honor mamie

till's words, let the people see. >> you look at the barn, a remarkable structure today, it holds significance, not just for mississippi, but the country. what was that reaction to say from the dentist, or the reaction of the people in the community? >> the dentist, who is a lovely guy, who is very well respected by the till family, very generous with his space once he figured out what this is, but i think also really does not understand what it has to do with him. in some ways, the project of the book is to show kind, smart, well-intentioned people who don't understand what this has to do with them, what it has to do with them. >> the new book is called "the barn, the secret history of a murder in mississippi." it is out today and is extraordinary. wright thompson , congratulations on the book and thank you for digging into the story. up next to me look at a new netflix show about an unsettled

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evil has always existed. >> detective, to understand this killer, you must reach the aesthetic. >> you are an odd little bird for a nun. something is after us. >> people want evil. >> we need to catch this monster. that was a look at the new fx drama "grotesquerie." it was written and created by six time emmy winner ryan murphy. the 10-episode drama, which premieres tomorrow night, is centered around a small town that falls victim to a series of unexplained crimes.

the detectives looking to put the case, and her own personal demons to rest. joining us now is one of the stars, executive producers of the show, tony and two time emmy award-winning actor, courtney b. vance. it is good to have you on the show. this looks, i mean, grotesque, would that be a compliment? >> apt description, yes. for what ms. niecy has to do and her family unit is very grotesque. we need to do better. >> you will take that. a lot of the plot is being kept under wraps. we've got a little bit here. tell us, who is your character, and a little bit more. >> im niecy nash's husband, and we have a daughter who is dealing with an eating disorder. she is very large and she wants to be larger to be on a reality show. i, as you can see, i am in a

coma at the beginning of the show, but we flashback to see what i am about. but niecy is trying to solve the series of murders, and she really would love it if her home life was a little better, but it ain't. >> so much of the show, as mika noted, is under wraps. we know what is on the cast list. travis kelce. that caught mika's attention, hall of fame tight end, as well as taylor swift's boyfriend. what can you tell us about, even if you can't say much about his role, what his experience was like, because this is the first time he has done anything like this. >> i was on the set with him, and my man is ready. we had a wonderful time. it is going to be a wonderful

surprise for everyone to see how accomplished he is. >> so, courtney, we actually began the hour talking about the dark world that donald trump has created for some of his voters. of course, crime is at lows across much of the country. can you talk about the inspiration, maybe, for this? >> you know, this is a very personal experience for mr. ryan murphy. we did press all day yesterday, and he revealed that this is his baby. it is very, very exciting. we saw-- there was a premier last night, and i am in the show and i am in awe of what is happening, the completeness of the experience. i am very excited for folks to see, to witness. it will be two episodes tomorrow evening, i believe 10:00. >> let me ask you this, courtney . i know we are not giving away the whole plot to me but is niecy's character more motivated by her own demons,

which was alluded to, or by her profession? are we dealing with an exchange of both? >> i think we are dealing with an exchange of both. this person, obviously is targeting her with these series of murders. it is personal. so, she has got in there demons she is dealing with and on top of that, this is happening to her. she has got to deal with that, and then come home and deal with us. it is an examination for all of us to look at our family life, and we will-- i am sure there will be subsidiary things for us to talk about, mental wellness, eating disorders, drinking disorders, sexual addictions, all host of things to talk about. >> okay. "grotesquerie" premieres tomorrow night at 10:00 eastern on fx and is available to

stream the following day on hulu. two time emmy award winner, courtney b vance, thank you very much for being on the show today. good luck with that. it looks gross. congratulations. we have a second hour of "morning joe: weekend" for you right after the break. break. a longer and happier life. the farmer's dog makes weight management easy with fresh food pre-portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come. wayfair's big sale is finally here. with fresh food pre-portioned for it's way day!eds. right now, you can save up to 80% off at wayfair. ooh, yes! plus, score free shipping on everything. [ grunting ]

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♪♪ good morning. it is saturday, september 28th. we begin with breaking news out of the middle east where israel says it killed the long time leader of hezbollah, hassan nasrallah , in strikes late last night on an apartment complex in beirut, the capital of lebanon. israel says they were using the complex is an underground headquarters. hezbollah has not confirmed hassan nasrallah was killed but if confirmed, it would be a major escalation of the ongoing back and forth between israel and hezbollah which israel has significantly intensified in the last couple weeks. in a statement, israel says it killed a high-ranking commander and other senior leaders. israel says other strikes in beirut yesterday targeted hezbollah weapons caches. hassan nasrallah is a shiite cleric that led hezbollah since 1992 and grew the group in the most iranian backed task force in the region both militarily

and politically, building hezbollah in what has been called a state within a state. we also went through decades of conflict with israel and participated in siri's civil war. has the law has also trained other iranian baked as my fact groups like the these. in a statement, the head of aurora's supreme national security council said its axis of resistance will respond with force at the right time and that israel has, quote, opened the gates of hell against itself. this morning israel carried out more strikes in lisbon -- lebanon and israel fire more rockets into his blood. let's bring in richard engel, reporting live from beirut. good morning, richard. what is the situation? >> reporter: i think a lot of people here are still in a state of shock. hassan nasrallah, as you mentioned, wasn't just a

political leader. he wasn't just a military leader. he wasn't just a religious leader. he was the most powerful person in lebanon. lebanon, for all intents and purposes, it has been a failed state the last several years. the government is more or less ineffective. the army is not particularly powerful. hezbollah has been calling the shots here as the most powerful armed services, and has the most powerful intelligence services, it has the most powerful weapons cache a's but what israel has been able to do over the last two weeks or so is systematically dismantle hezbollah. first it targeted the communication systems in that shocking attack we all saw with the pagers all blowing off -- up at once and then the walkie- talkies and in the series of strikes targeting hezbollah leaders and then this enormous last, bunker busters used in

beirut last night. did not happen very far from here. the way the explosions happened, just the sound of the explosion was different to give an indication of the kind of bomb used. usually, when explosions happen on the surface or explode in the air, there is an enormous crash, almost like symbols crashing. this was deep, like it was underground because it was underground. it was more of an earthquake type field. you just felt the rumble all across the city. it was an enormous amount of firepower. deep, penetrating in the art. israel says that strike killed hassan nasrallah . what does that mean for hezbollah? nobody really knows. the group has effectively gone silent. it isn't just hassan nasrallah that has apparently been killed . the entire top cadre of leaders in hezbollah has been

killed over the past week or so. this has been a decapitation of hezbollah. it is a shock for the lebanese, it is a shock all across the middle east. hezbollah had this air of invincibility, much more so than hamas or the houthis or other militia groups in the middle east. hezbollah was considered the 18, consider the best in class, but, clearly, its security services were penetrated. they are hunting for moles within. now they have a major leadership crisis. they still have tens of thousands, perhaps 100,000, fighters were more. what will those fighters do if they are not getting clear orders? what will they do if they don't have a command structure? we are now in a state of shock in this country as people are starting to come to terms that may be, in fact, this did

happen, this shadowy figure who has dominated lebanon for decades from underground facilities, in public he would make videos, speeches that were attended by thousands and washed all across the middle east. maybe in fact he is no longer in the picture and this once considered untouchable best in class organization has been assassinated by intelligence operations. it is a very, very significant development. i don't want to say it is the end of hezbollah but it might be the end of hezbollah as we knew it, at least for now. >> the idf has put out a chart of all the hezbollah leaders

they say were taken out in this series of attacks. we have not been able to confirm that, obviously. give me some sense of scope. hezbollah, even though it is confused by many people in the west, it is not hamas. it is substantially more trade, better funded organization in which they operate in a country with weaponry fairly openly. give me a sense of what you believe at these very, very early stages, the impact on its operational capacity. >> reporter: so that was the impression, at least. that was the myth that hamas was the more jr. partner, hamas was penned in. they are very different, you know the geography hear very well, the geography is very important. hamas in gaza is and continues to exist in gaza, although very much diminished, it is a resistance group against israel, an group backed by iran

that lives in a relatively contained space. gaza is a sealed off territory. it is often described as a prison. who runs prisons? gangs. what did they do in prisons? they dig . what do they do when they break out on those, they go off and do crime sprees and do horrible things to whoever they can fail. that happened a year ago. israel has been attacking gaza with enormous force and trying to eliminate hamas and wipe the group off the surface of the earth. hamas is still able to carry out limited attacks, mostly with shoulder fire weapons, occasionally firing a rocket outside of the gaza strip into israel. hezbollah, an international organization because it was effectively running the state here, it had access to the airport. it has access to the border with syria. it can breed things in or out. it does not live in the prisonlike condition, like

hamas did. it was always considered the best militant group in the world, training other organizations, training militant groups, even as far away as in latin america. it had a mystique and an eat those and an air of instability that has now been shattered. what happens next? there is still a sense of shock here. people are still coming to terms that this appears to have happened. hezbollah has not fully accepted it, they have not put out a statement acknowledging his death. the group is clearly in the leadership crisis. the real question is, what happens to this organization? what happens to those tens of thousands of fighters who now don't have the structure, the command structure they did a couple weeks ago and that air of

instability. it seems as though israel will keep pushing its advantage, pushing the organization while it has been we can. think about a boxing match. once you have your enemy on the ropes and you delivered a few shots and knocked him down, that is the time you keep pushing, keep pushing and keep pushing until you have a knockout and win the fight. that seems that is what israel is trying to do right now. there are still drones over lower beirut. i saw drones just a minute ago. israel is clearly still hunting for leaders and trying to see now if they can pick off people who are moving around, who are looking for safety because if, again, israel has confirmed it, i am hearing hits from my own sources that israel is right on this, they, in fact, dig

killed hassan nasrallah, they will want to kill his successor, his successor's successor and keep going as quickly and as thoroughly as they can. >> it is worth noting when you said you know there are drones there, israel says it continues to monitor lebanese airspace and will, in fact, they have threatened to take out anything they say coming into beirut airport that is threatening. i think what they mean by that is arms replenishment and things they feel is threatening to israel, not to the airport. richard, thanks for your great reporting. stay close with any updates. richard engel joining us from beirut. joining us from tel aviv is aaron maclachlan. good afternoon to you in tel aviv. tell us how the news is being received where you are in israel? >> reporter: ali, israel is now on a heightened state of alert. just minutes after yesterday's strike happened in the evening around 6:00 p.m., israeli officials were immediately seemingly briefing the press on background, there was the

strike on headquarters, hezbollah headquarters there in beirut that hassan nasrallah was the target and that israel was bracing for a retaliatory strike and now we are seeing tel aviv, other cities across this country, on heightened alert, not only for retaliatory strike from lebanon, but possibly an iran is possible. civilians are being told to remain vigilant. there are still so many questions as to how all of this played out. at this point, namely the israeli intelligence that led them to declare with confidence that hassan nasrallah is in fact dead and the israeli officials not divulging any further details as to what gives them the confidence to make that declaration this morning. we know they were working to confirm his death throughout the night. what we are seeing now unfolds is continued fighting. we see this and sirens are being sounded in israel as

hezbollah continues to launch rockets on israel and israel continues to bombard parts of lebanon. i want to point out the timing of the strike on hassan nasrallah. it is potentially significant. it happened minutes after the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu had finished his speech before the united nations. in that speech, really singling out iran and hezbollah saying israel would continue his campaign against hezbollah, no mention of a cease-fire, no mention of the proposal put forward by the united states and its allies, a 21 day

period of time that u.s. officials had been calling for, a cessation of hostilities, in order to create the space for diplomatic resolution of this crisis. no mention of that in netanyahu's speech. that speech was followed by news of this strike. now the real question hanging across the region, in terms of what happens next, here in israel, they are bracing for further potential escalation, ali. >> erin, thank you. the idf says they have killed hassan nasrallah. we have not heard confirmation from lebanese authorities or from hezbollah about that. we will continue to monitor that. if anything develops on your side, erin mclaughlin, let us know, erin mclaughlin in tel aviv. let's get into exactly what you will be hearing a lot about for the next days and weeks. lebanon is a country locked between the mediterranean sea, israel, syria and the occupied golan heights. what consists of modern-day lebanon is human civilization of more than 7000 years. it has been ruled by a variety of cultures and empires including the canaanites, the egyptians, islamic caliphate, christian crusaders and the ottomans. modern lebanon began in 1920

when following the axis of world war i, which included that, the league of nations petition for middle eastern territories of the empire. that created four mandates. palestine, iran, syria and lebanon. when we harken back to the colonialization area, sponsorships were meant to eventually lead to independent states. the british were given control and governance over palestine and iraq. the french were given governments over syria and lebanon. this created greater lebanon, as it was called, literally a reference to size. it was double what it was before, adding cities, including tripoli in the north. as well as tyre, one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world, the first being beirut. after nazi occupation,

distinctive item where each main specific group was given powers. maronite christian sailed the presidency, sunni muslims the prime minister ship, greek orthodox got the deputy speaker and the deputy prime minister. i should note the druze, an offshoot of shiite islam but who identify as their own religion are part of the lebanese population, mainly residing in the southern half of the country and in the golan heights. also, the time of independence, there remained a very small jewish population that dwindled to perhaps a handful, if any. the lebanon remained relatively stable until 1975 when his civil war broke out between militias versus muslims and and the plo, which had recently relocated from jordan.

shortly after that war started, syria entered the fray, initially intervening on the side of the maronites on the side of the plo. syria was a major occupying source with significant power in the lebanese government. that lasted until the peaceful cedar revolution in 2005. now, back to 1982, following years of hostilities and fighting with the plo, israel itself and project 2025 are, invading as far north as beirut , before occupying the southern section of lebanon, 10% of the country. israel withdrew from there in 2000. lebanon's civil war officially ended in 1990, following the signing of the agreement the year before, which, among other things, disarmed all the militia fighting on all sides of the war with the exception of one militia, hezbollah hezbollah was formed in

response to the 1982 israeli invasion. it is a shiite islamist militia, trained by iran, heavily influenced by the principles and ideas of the ayatollah khomeini and what was at the time the recent iranian revolution. hezbollah's stated objectives included ending heavy western presence in lebanon and the destruction of israel. in light,, which is a government of gaza, hezbollah currently control significant parts of lebanon as a political entity in parliament that mainly exists and is a separate fighting force with a significant influence inside lebanon. hezbollah has been dubbed a state within a state.

at the end of the civil war, especially since the withdrawal of israeli and syrian forces in the early 2000, hezbollah has grown closer to iran and more powerful and influential within lebanon, which is become increasingly weaker since the civil war, especially in the last decade amid a rapidly declining economy. in 2006, is red and hezbollah fought a deadly war and after a year of escalating back-and- forth attacks, hezbollah and israel appear to be on the brink of another war. let's bring in ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor to former president obama and msnbc contributor. thank you for joining us. tell me your thoughts right now. obviously, for every administration, every national security advisor, deputy national security advisor, whether for front or in the back of your mind, lebanon is always the thing you are thinking of. >> yeah, it is a seismic event, assuming that hassan nasrallah has been killed. i don't think the idf would go off with the certainty they are they didn't have good information, you know, both in terms of their target and also in terms of monitoring the communication of hezbollah operatives talking to one another. because you would not go out with this information and have hassan nasrallah pop up. just to put him in context as a

figure, you know, i think about, obviously the roots of hezbollah go back to not just israel and these components but the united states, with the barracks bombing of the u.s. marine center in the killing of a number of u.s. officials in the 1980s. also, obviously, they have been a constant source of conflict with israel, firing rockets into mainly northern israel, that is what precipitated this latest round of escalation and the israelis desire to return to their population and unrealistic as the israeli are in decimating hezbollah's leadership. i think about the role hezbollah played in this and the war, they were pretty essential for shoulders and strategists for the asad regime. in the complex politics of the middle east today, ali, you know this well, places like aleppo and syria, where hezbollah is loathed, i am

sure there are people who are welcoming his demise. that said, ali, i think we have to bear in mind the point you just gave, which is that hezbollah was born and emerged out of the israeli invasion of hezbollah, of lebanon in the 1980s. hezbollah emerged as a different entity on the back end of the 2006 israeli war in lebanon. so it your time is flat circle in the middle east. i think we should expect something to be generated, some version of hezbollah 2.0 out of this conflict and i think there are just a lot of open questions in place today. what is the future the palestinians? what is the future the lebanese state? what is the future of hezbollah? what happens in places like iraq, where there have been allies of hezbollah who have been able us?

what happens with the houthis in yemen? we are not out of the woods here. right now, at this level of certainty, you talk to people, i know you do, as well, people just don't know what door has been opened to in terms of the future. there's a lot of anger in lebanon about the scale of civilian death in these strikes, as well. that will not go away, either. a big bullet to hezbollah but a lot of questions of what comes next. >> ben, one wonders about motivation. with hamas, they are, although they were not voted in, they through an initial election and then a revolution took over, a coup, really, took over in gaza. hezbollah is not part of, it is not a central part of lebanese government but they control so much of lebanon, including things that would be thought of

as governmental services. what are they looking for? they are not trying to run lebanon and not trying to function inside israel. what is a sex -- what does a successful fight look like to hezbollah? >> to protect their own interest and run their own piece of lebanon. i think this is not only because, benjamin netanyahu and his remarks to the u.n. is trying to tie all of lebanon to hezbollah. everyone in lebanon is somehow now has blood. that is not true. there is no doubt people are there that hate hezbollah, they have been behind the assassination of the widely loved prime minister of lebanon back in the early 2000, so it is just not the case that hezbollah runs the entire state, runs the entire government. they are the dominant faction of the shiite population inside lebanon. they have significant influence inside certain ministries of the government that is fairly dysfunctional. it has been a caretaker government for number of years

now. they have the real militia that is separate from the lebanese armed forces. you know, you used the term, a state within a state, i think that is accurate. they don't run all of lebanon. they run parts of lebanon. they run certain neighborhoods in beirut, but they have their militia, they have their connectivity to iran principally but to also members of the so-called axis of resistance across the region. the big question for them now is, do they try to regenerate these military capabilities, this influence in lebanon under a different cohort of leadership, or do they kind of go back to iraq and take on more the identity of the fighting force that was there origin story. hassan nasrallah will be replaced by another. that will be a decision made by a younger cohort of hezbollah operatives.

i am sure the iranians may be involved in those conversations but i don't think they know. i am sure there is a succession plan on the shelf, but what israel has been trying to do is take out such a substantial amount of the leadership cohort that there is the throwing of the secession plan into chaos. there are hundreds of fighters, tens of thousands of rockets and deep roots in parts of lebanon. they are not going to just go away. >> you point out something really interesting, whether it is a state within his day, it is more of a state within a failed state. lebanon is not a strong state at all. that complicates issue on how anyone in the world deals with de-escalating this situation. ben, i will ask you to stick around. we will continue breaking news coverage after a quick break. we will be right back. back. t . and every time i get stressed about having to pay my bills, i just hop on the bike, man. oh, come on, man, you got to pay your bills. you don't have to worry about anything when you're protected

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♪♪ re-joining us now is ben rhodes, former deputy national security advisor and msnbc contributor. we also have an independent journalist with years of

experience covering the palestinian conflict. give us the sense of what is going on in israel. erin mclaughlin said it was on some sort of high alert for a while. does this change how israeli people and the government are looking at the situation? >> it is hard to know how the government is looking at the situation because the government has been pretty much involved in internal swallowing since news of the massive explosion but the israeli people who are on the weekend, friday and saturday is the weekend here, i would say it has heightened fears. even here in jerusalem, in my neighborhood group, there have been, you know, messages back and forth. there is a kind of burning for

possibly massive retaliation for this event. >> let's talk about strategy. we were talking in the last segment about hezbollah and how and whether they have reformed and what it looks like and who is actually dead because we don't have confirmation from them. let's look at it from the israeli side. this has been tipped for tat for the last 10 months or so. what do you think this does? does this escalate it or does it give hezbollah a signal that maybe israel is really coming? >> i think they are really coming for them. if you look at it, there has been this kind of status quo since october 7, it has been war in the north where israel and hamas fired rockets and taken shots back. that has built on what has been a war for years. they were trading fire but they wouldn't cross certain boundaries. what israel has done is blown through any boundaries as far

as its willingness to accept risk and escalation and it will try to knock out hezbollah as much as they can while they have hezbollah on the back foot and have them fully compromised in their communications. they will try to take out as many leaders as a can. they will accept huge amounts of civilian casualties in lebanon, huge amounts of global condemnation to do as much damage to hezbollah as possible. that seems to be what is guiding the israeli strategy right now. the challenge, ali, is that this is the middle east. islam, memories along. there will be reprisals on israel, whether they take the form of terrorist attacks inside israel, rocket fire, those are questions, i think in iran, they have used hezbollah to make a lot of people worry about the nuclear program and whether the weakening of hezbollah may incentivize the

iranians, who are pretty far along in their nuclear program, to try to make progress there. right now, the strategy has questions from israel, do as much damage as you can, knowing that there is going to be blowback to that. >> noga, let's talk about the reality, as it relates to the war in gaza and the highly unresolved matter that has largely, in terms of what benjamin netanyahu has been saying, dropped off the radar in the last few days as he continues his attention or to lebanon. there has been some internal dispute in israel about that, that this is the new front israel is concentrating on, particularly the hostages and the cease-fire deal may be entirely up the table now. >> yeah. before i answer your question, ali, i have breaking news to share.

the french foreign ministry has confirmed the death of hassan nasrallah, just in the last few minutes. that is another -- >> that would be the first confirmation we have gotten outside of the idf confirmation. thank you, we will run that down, thank you for that, as well, noga. >> yes, your right. >> actually, noga, because you mentioned that, hold on one second. we have more details on that. both of you just standby. let's go to matt bradley. matt, what do we got on this? >> reporter: yeah, we just heard from lebanon's hezbollah that hassan nasrallah has been killed. this is the first real confirmation we have gotten from the group. they were reticent to give us this. last night we heard news he had survived the attack from hezbollah themselves. than it was this morning,

hezbollah sources were quoted saying they had lost contact with hezbollah's top leadership and now it looks as though they are finally confirming with the israelis said hours ago that hassan nasrallah has been killed in that enormous attack last night. this will send shockwaves, not just to lebanon, not just through the middle east, but really, the entire world, ali. this man, he was not just the leader of hezbollah, he was not just a religious and spiritual presence in this country and for much of shiite islam, he was also a champion for a lot of anticolonial movements throughout the world. he kind of cut of figure, for those who are opposed to israel, but for those who see israel as a european colonial force and for those who see the palestinian movement as more than just a movement of the palestinian people. they see it as a global symbol of resistance against colonialism. hassan nasrallah stood out and cut a unique figure historically. this is something we will be hearing about for many days and weeks to come. i think if anybody is not going to be surprised by their own

death, if i could put it that way, it would be hassan nasrallah himself. he had been living in isolation and secrecy most of his life, for the 32 years from which he ran this organization. his predecessor was also killed in an israeli strike in 1990. this is a situation where, you know, we see history repeating himself. it was hassan nasrallah who made hezbollah into the organization it is today. a militant fighting group, the likes of which we have seen in iraq, syria or the gaza strip and more organized military force, more like an actual regular army than a political party that it did some ragtag militant group at this will be a body blow to hezbollah. it will further the leadership, as we have already discussed, in lebanon. as you mentioned just now, it is more like a failed state than it is a real government. it is going to set off a secession crisis in hezbollah. a lot of people are going to be wondering where does this entire country go from here?

and will this organization, hezbollah, decide to retaliate against the israelis, or will they decide to lick their wounds . it was not just hassan nasrallah killed, it was their entire top leadership. it is also many of their rank and file, particularly in the pager and walkie-talkie bombings last week that literally sheared off the trigger figured -- trigger fingers for many of those israel would be confronting if they decided to go into a ground invasion. that is another question. is killing hassan nasrallah enough to bring israel to the table to make a peace deal with lebanon? that would actually spare the citizens of lebanon, so many who have already been killed and displaced last week from the ground invasion, which would not only be horrifying, it would be destructive on a level we have seen far beyond 2006.

this is a fight, we still don't know where it will be going from here. it will be sending shockwaves through the entire region, now that we have final confirmation hassan nasrallah has been killed. >> just repeating that hezbollah has confirmed that its leader, hassan nasrallah, was killed in an idf stripe at mac, stay with me. what you seeing there, met? >> reporter: i am hearing gunfire. it sounds like that, or, i believe it is probably shooting, possibly for people who are celebrating the death of hassan nasrallah, more on this to come. the city itself is going to be changed, starting right now, now that hezbollah has actually confirmed the death of their leader. we are expecting to see possibly violence, may be celebration. there is bound to be a reaction here in lebanon's capital. >> do what you need to do to keep your team safe as you investigate what is going on around you. it is important to point out,

gunfire is often used in a celebratory way, as well as being a weapon. i want to bring in ben and noga, i noga, i am changing my question entirely after the news you brought us now that hezbollah has confirmed the death of hassan nasrallah. benjamin netanyahu said something about lebanon yesterday he is not largely said about gaza. he said we share the united states' aims at sharing a cease- fire with lebanon. talk about that. the option of a cease-fire is more of this or, as matt bradley suggested, an israeli incursion into lebanon, something that a lot of israelis are not interested in, a munchy -- multi-front war now. >> that's right. ben said in his speech we are not at war with the lebanese, we are at war with hezbollah. this was an attempt, i think, to clean up a pretty messy misunderstanding he had with the white house that alongside the french president, they had

announced what was discussed earlier, a possible 21 day truce with hezbollah which would've allowed the negotiations for the hostages to be released in and into the war with gaza. after saying yes to the white house on that, he got a lot of blowback from his most extremist ministers, he walked it back and said absolutely not and then was forced by the reality of being in new york, i think, to walk back his walk back and say, yes, we do share that american hope. it is very difficult, honestly, to know where netanyahu's mind is right now. the israeli army, which has been hanging out for months,

has said openly, we are prepared for any scenario, we are preparing for a ground invasion but we are leaving room open for diplomacy. that is almost a direct quote from the israeli army's chief of staff. >> ben rhodes, at this hour, i would imagine your successors in the national security council are involved in meetings, united states policies on things that since the months since october 7 have been problematic, to say the least but now we are possibly one step closer, we might be closer to selling something, we don't know. what is going on at the white house, what can the white house and the american administration be doing right now? >> to tell you the truth, they are just not driving events. every time there is a wave of escalation in lebanon, what we hear is that the u.s. government wasn't even notified. in that, the u.s. government is saying that, as well. they don't necessarily want to be held responsible, even though it is u.s. weapons and they should clear before they drop bombs like they did on

hezbollah like they probably killed u.s. civilians. those are u.s. bombs. the u.s. is involved but it is the israeli government driving this escalation. what the u.s. is concerned about is the risk of that kind of regional escalation. we don't know what form it could tape-record could take the form of an israeli ground invasion of lebanon, it could take the form of street fighting, civil war breaking out in lebanon, it could take the form of an an -- escalation with yemen and iraq. there were all these uncertainties about where this is going. with the u.s. government is trying to do is prevent that kind of escalation from happening. they won't call, they want to return to some kind of stability. they want a cease-fire, negotiated cease-fire in gaza for the hostages but, you know, at some point, the diplomacy half -- has to have some kind

of credibility behind it and there needs to be people to conduct the diplomacy. with the 21 day cease-fire, who is agreeing to that for hezbollah? they don't have leadership now. there are a lot of questions in the white house right now trying to understand israel's attentions. what they probably one is calm and not have a ground invasion to let the dust settle and see what happens. i think that is the right course of action. the question is if the israeli government was to continue to press its military escalation. the evidence shows they are not listening to the u.s. government in making those decisions. >> i want to thank you all for being here. ben, your expertise is needed right now. noga, you prove your reporter chops all the time, you broke the news right here on air and, of course, matt bradley was

able to bring us the confirmation that hezbollah has confirmed hassan nasrallah has been killed. thanks to the two of you. will be right back. our coverage continues. r cover when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management getting a fresh deal at subway has never been easier. just buy any footlong in the app, get another free. the only hard part is, telling travis he doesn't get the second footlong. wait, seriously? i got you next time, buddy! order now in the subway app.

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from beirut. last we heard there was gunfire around him. we are also joined by our panel. matt, let me go back to matt for second. you are hearing gunfire. what are you hearing now? >> reporter: we are still hearing gunfire, ali, we have heard successive bursts of gun fires by me. there is a neighborhood behind me. earlier what we show from the explosion were shot by cameras in the hotel where i am standing now. we have a clear view of the airport off to the right and the neighborhood over here. these are hezbollah strongholds. shiite majority neighborhoods of beirut, which is why the israeli army has been striking them, that big bomb last night killed hassan nasrallah and

several of his top lieutenants . the last i saw the death toll was at six. that is certain to go up when you saw so many of those buildings that were leveled. i had been hearing, ever since we broke that news, just before the break, that hezbollah had confirmed that hassan nasrallah has been killed. we have now been hearing successive gunshots in, you know, just bursts of fire . we don't know what this means. normally, this would be celebratory gunfire. it is almost certainly a reaction to hasbro's announcement. we have also seen, in just the last couple of minutes, a large column of smoke emerging from the neighborhood around there. that is almost certainly, as well, yet another israeli airstrike. the israelis say they are continuing to pummel that neighborhood today. you have been seeing images of that on social media just now. i saw it myself, that column of

smoke in the same area where we saw that huge set of airstrikes that richard engel described earlier in the hour. there were several different bunker buster style bombs. we did not hear it like we did before. they gave the description of more like an earthquake, deep, penetrating bombs that went deep into the ground and killed what sounds like some of the top leadership of hezbollah, in addition to hassan nasrallah. it looks as though the israelis are continuing, continuing to attack, continuing to attack points around lebanon, despite the death of hassan nasrallah . it sounds as if israel does not think it's job here is done. >> let's talk about what is going in iran right now. we believe there are conversations in iran on how to deal with this matter. iran is a sponsor and supporter of hezbollah. what are you hearing?

>> well i will start with world reaction, which has been quite muted. part of the reason is they are just waiting for the other side to confirm, which they have, of course, in the past 10 minutes or so. in iran we have a statement from the supreme leader, i will re-part of it to you, ali. it says all resistance forces in the region stand alongside hezbollah, it will be determined by the resistance forces, like by hezbollah. the people of lebanon have not forgotten that in the past the military forces of the usurping regime advanced to be rude, it was hezbollah that halted their progress and restored lebanon's dignity and honor and goes on to say it is the duty of all muslims to stay with the people of muslim lebanon and steadfast hezbollah using all available means to oppress this despicable regime, signed the supreme leader. a message of defiance and solidarity with hezbollah. there was no acknowledgment of name by hassan nasrallah but

this statement came out more than an hour ago and the confirmation came from hezbollah itself on the killing of hassan nasrallah. if i may, i just want to take you back 24 hours ago, ali, to the u.n. and what the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu said in his speech. he said he had a message for what he called the tyrants of tehran. he said there is no place in iran that the long arm of israel cannot reach. now go back to july 31st, the day the former head of hamas was killed in a safe house in tehran. the iranian revolutionary guard failing to detect a bomb that was planted there two months prior. so ever since then, the region and israel have been bracing for an attack by iran. never really came. in fact, iran, you could say, was sort of standing on the

sidelines of the question, i think many will be asking now, what, if any, will be iran's reaction now. >> you have spent a lot of time reporting inside lebanon. it is a tricky situation for that country because lebanon does not control its own fate. matt bradley was just pointing to the airport. people on the list, you know, for hezbollah, they don't fly into beirut airport because essentially it is not under the government's control, it is under the control of hezbollah. what is the situation in lebanon after an unstable few years in that country getting worse overnight? >> in lebanon, hezbollah, as you know, essentially once more power, both politically and military italy than the lebanese army. what you are really seeing is a huge blow for hezbollah's control structure.

the people i spoke to in lebanon this morning, there is a sense of panic. as you know, lebanon is one third the size of washington, d.c. so the bombs that fell have shaken the whole city. i can bet you not many people slept in beirut tonight. so what you will see in the coming days is hezbollah scrambling to fill the succession to find a replacement for hassan nasrallah that is really a very tough call because as matt mentioned, hassan nasrallah was not just a militant leader of the group. hassan nasrallah transformed what hezbollah is. he brought it up as a political movement that entered the

lebanese government in 2005 and managed to create an axis of resistance with the support of iran after the arid spring in 2011. what you see as hezbollah now is a giant military party that operates in syria and iraq. in that sense, this is truly unprecedented. what we are waiting to see, looking at names who survived the strike on friday, he is the name we are hearing about that might be one of the potential successors for hassan nasrallah but this is really unprecedented times for lebanon. >> you have been watching every part of this thing for us over the last year. what is your take right now on what is going on? >> yeah, it is just such a huge degree of unsettled the right now because none of the other

fires across the region have been resolved. you have seen, yes, israel taking out the leader of hamas, several syrian leaders, but you have not seen -- >> thank you. >> ambassador, you know the area particularly well, you are at the stage where it was the height of tension between israel and lebanon. do you think we are headed there again, in terms of a full- scale war between hezbollah and israel? >> i think we are saying what next is what matters. what happens next is what matters. hezbollah was more than just a proxy of iran, hezbollah is a partner of iran. especially with the exports. iran has made it clear they don't want a regional war but now there number one allied

partner, proxy, has been severely wounded. what will iran do? that, plus what will the israelis do on the ground? that will determine if this becomes a bigger regional war or not. >> ambassador, tell me what israel needs to do right now. we heard from matt bradley and richard engel they want to de- escalate. that has not happened in the last 10 months. what do they need to do right now? >> what they need to do is continue these efforts in light of what we have heard but in particular focusing on the internal situation in lebanon. you have a shiite population that has been deeply wounded. it was allied with the roots of hezbollah. now they are angry and willing to do something. how do you keep lebanon itself from imploding along sectarian lines that tore lebanon apart in the civil war? >> irrespective of what just went on and what has been going on with israel the last few

weeks, lebanon has been a failed state for quite some time. >> yes. hezbollah has played the double standard. it does not turn to the lebanese people and say, sure we fire into israel and risk war with israel? they operate on their own. the lebanese government was to do something, hezbollah can exercise a veto if it defeats their interest. you think about the fallout inside lebanon, the lebanese presidency has been vacant since november 2022 in large part because hezbollah was exercising the veto over parliament being able to elect a president. i think watching the politics in lebanon right now, will there be some kind of uprising inside lebanon in reaction to hassan nasrallah's death is something that worries me. >> ambassador jeffery feltman, thank you for your time. thank you to daniele hamamdjian, joyce karam, akbar shahid ahmed and richard engel, matt bradley, that does it for me. i will see you back here 10:00 eastern to noon.

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