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brooklyn, how we doing? i'm luke, the host and creative director of msnbc live, and we are so excited to welcome you to our very first and sold out fan focused event! [ applause ] >> thank you! and this is where you get to meet and greet your favorite nbc personalities live and in person, and i can let you guys

in on a little secret. steve kornacki's khakis are just as glorious in real life. over the course of the day jen psaki, joy reid, and so many others will give you their take on the state of this wild and crazy election. let's get this thing kicked off. please welcome to the stage, the chart throb himself, the man, you know who i'm talking about, the man with the most incredible map, the hardest working man in politics, who's on live almost 48 hours in a 24 hour day, steve kornacki! but hold on, hold on! he will be joined by the pride

of los angeles katie! steve, katie! [ applause ] >> on election nights, you usually start out the night by telling us certain places you'll be looking for early to give us a hint on where this election is going. give us a clue now. what districts, what counties, what states will you be watching to see where this thing is headed? >> yeah, i mean one of the first poll closings we'll be getting on election night is indiana. we think of hamilton county, indianapolis. it's, it's a county i think that could offer us a lot of clues, but the complicating factor is not every county reports the vote out with the same speed. they've been slow there in the past. so i think about this a lot, and there are a lot of different places. virginia closes relatively early. suburbs of richmond and dc could be telling. the virginia beach area. it may take awhile to get a complete picture from there, though. the one place we can count on to get complete and quick results is florida. florida closes at 7:0 0 p.m.ment within a half hour under state law, every

county has to report out its early vote and mail vote. that's about two-thirds of all the vote. then really any time after that, they start reporting out the rest. within an hour, you've got tons of florida counties that are 100% in. within two hours you really know where the state is going. >> it's so interesting because when i think of florida i think of hanging chads and days of waiting to see where things is going. to see now florida is so good at this, they've made a turn around. but it feels like democrats have written florida off. they don't feel like florida will be a win for them. so if you're watching florida and it's red, what specifically are you watching for within florida? >> well, that's it. it's not one of the core battleground states, but you're looking for a trend. so one thing we'll be showing on election night as florida comes in is just county by county. say we get pasco county from the gulf coast, we get 100%. what i call up on the screen, you'll see the result on election night, and next to it i'll press a button, imagine i'm pressing a button here,

and a drawer is going to open and show you how the county voted in 2020. and you're going to say is there a trend here? you know, is, okay harris lost this county, did she lose it by less than biden had lost it by? is she losing it by more? then you'll see that, you know, in florida we'll get the most complete picture of what that trend looks like. of course, there can be geographic specific trends, something happening in florida that isn't helping elsewhere. but i think florida will give us the most early possibility of a trend. >> i love this about steve. we do commercials, so you probably have an idea, but if you go to his office, what he's doing every single day right now is looking at maps, looking at counties, understanding the history of individual counties, the demographics, how they voted in the past. you could probably name any county in the country right now, certainly if it's a battleground state, and steve will toll you the history of that county right this second while sitting here on the

stage. he's a savant! it's true! let's focus more on battlegrounds. you talked about pennsylvania. there's some interesting senate races that i think, um, i'd love to focus on with you. there's a senate race in pennsylvania, a senate race in arizona, a senate race in florida that gets a little chatter, and then there's one in texas. what are the chances that democrats take any seats in those states? >> well, the, the big question i think when it comes to the, you know, senate races, and even house races for that matter is what is going to, what is going to win out in voters' minds in these states? are they going to look at the ballot and treat the senate race and presidential race as two different ones -- >> are there split ticket voters. >> exactly. because in 2016 and 2020, there was a grand total of one state in both elections with the winner of the senate race came from a different party as the winner of the presidential

race in that state, and that state was, maybe there's folks from there, maine 2020. susan collins republican was re-elected, joe biden democrat. that's the only one. so seeing polling in pennsylvania, razor thin in the presidential race. razor thin there. democrats doing better in the senate race. seeing that in arizona, michigan. does that hold or is there a convergence in the end? in the end if donald trump were just able to get over the top in pennsylvania, does he left up the republican senate candidate and bring him just over the top or is there more separation there? certainly looking at the polling, i'm open to the idea that we could see some split ticket voting like we haven't before, but i balance that in my mind with i think we thought there would be some in 2016 and 2020 and there isn't. >> abortion is a big issue in a number of states. there are a number of ballot issues on abortion. florida is one of those states. do you see democrats being helped by abortion being on the ballot in florida or do

you see, from what you're reading in the numbers so far, republicans who support access to abortion, going out and voting to make it enshrined in the constitution in that state, voting for that amendment, but then going and feeling safe to vote for the republican, for donald trump? >> yeah, i mean the evidence that i've seen so far since this became a state issue with the overturning of roe v. wade in 2022 is that voters are by and large making a distinction between their view of the issue and whatever their partisan orientation is. a good example is ohio, which has become a fairly red state in the trump era. and ohio had a ballot referendum on abortion and the pro-choice side won very easily in republican counties. but that played out against the backdrop of a gubernatorial race in 2022 where you had a pro-life republican governor and a democratic nominee who was making abortion the center piece of her campaign, and the

pro-life republican governor easily won. we see that with kemp in georgia, reynolds in iowa. i think politically the benefit for abortion for democrats has been in special elections. special elections for the house, that sort of thing, that are generally low turnout events. and i think abortion is one of those issues that's galvanized democratic voters to turn out in disproportionate numbers in special elections. but in a presidential election when everyone is voting, that advantage might go away. >> and georgia, talking about if it's going red or blue, cory bush is a representative from georgia who won her race based on her experience with gun violence and believing úly there needs to be gun control. is gun, the gun issue going to be a difference maker? >> i've yet to see it. i remember in the wake of sandy hook, which was 12 years ago now.

i remember there was a very big push in the u.s. senate for a background check bill after that. joe manchin and pat toomey got together. there was a lot of talk in polling on background checks, it was literally 90 to 10, that kind of thing, supporting it. filibusterer ended that effort in the senate and there was just, there was a lot of talk and a lot of effort that went into take these, filibustererred it in 2014, not a single one of them lost. not a single one lost or underperformed in a way that you could link to that issue, and it sort of created. in my mind i go back to that because i'm always willing to have my mind changed or surprised, but i haven't seen any political or electoral developments since that have changed that basic, what we saw then in terms of being the reality politically. >> the polls themselves, there

was a lot of talk after 2020 or 2016 that the polls were inaccurate and didn't actually show what would happen. hillary clinton lost. the polls had showed her ahead for the entire race. can people trust polling right now? >> can we rook at the numbers and say those are accurate? >> i think you look at the polls right now, and i think you should put an asterisk when you see them. particularly in the northern tier of battleground states. wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania. especially wisconsin and michigan, though. but the volatility in polling and the big polling miss. we talk about 2020. biden went into election day with seemingly, you know, a huge lead nationally and all the battlegrounds, and then trump came within approximately 42,000 votes of winning the presidency and electoral college. it had everything to do with these trump supporting blue

collar white voters in the northern states being underestimated. call it nonresponse bias, is it because they didn't want to take part in polling and hung up the phone in disproportionate numbers or pollsters failing to reach them is an issue that trump supporters, i guess a lot of voters who only vote for him once every four years don't vote in other elections. whatever the explanation is we saw it twice in 16 and 20. in 20 about three weeks before election day there was a poll in wisconsin that had joe biden ahead by 17 points, and the final margin was about half a%. in michigan, the poll average in michigan on election day was biden by 8. he won by 150,000 votes, but it wasn't 8 votes. >> that's why candidates

traditionally say don't believe the polls, don't get complacent, get out and vote. coming up, we dive into trump's ongoing legal troubles as we dive into election day, and later andrea mitchell, chris hayes, his special guest kate shaw, and the host of the weekend take the stage. rachel maddow and lawrence o' donnell are here too. barely making a sound and command the road as well as what lies ahead? how we get there matters. get exceptional offers at your local audi dealer. [coughs] when caroline has a cough, she takes robitussin. so, she can have those one on ones again. hey jim!

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>> democracy is participatory. >> looking out at our community and saying we see you guys tonight. >> civics and journalism ideally should be participatory. it's been a very busy year of legal challenges for former president donald trump. four criminal cases, being found guilty on 34 counts, with sentencing pending just delayed until november 26th,

after the election. and there is a presidential election in the balance. here to talk about all of that are the stud msnbc legal eagles, the host of the the beat, ari, and former lead prosecutor, law professor, and cohost. >> how you doing? [ applause ] >> nice to see you. >> look at this guy! right? >> let's start with donald trump tried to overthrow and steal an election he lost and is now running for office again. and we have seen the legal system work in some ways and falter in others. the federal coup case is scheduled to continue in narrower form after the

election basically. so what can you tell us is the latest briefing and how do you feel as someone who's worked in the justice department and seen it play out this way? >> i'd say big, big picture is in case anyone in the audience does not think the supreme court is on the ballot, um, obviously you can look at all sorts of decisions starting with dobbs. but the supreme court presidential immunity decision is the gift that keeps on giving for donald trump. your comment about the fact that it narrowed the case in dc is totally fair. the superseding indictment that was brought by jack smith substantially was narrowed, not because jack smith wanted to. it was because of the supreme court, um, and the same thing is happening in new york where

the judge has to make a decision, which many of you are going how can that possibly be the case? because the new york case has nothing to do with what he was doing while he was president, as president. it was personal. and the supreme court said not only do we give him presidential immunity, but when he's acting in an official capacity, nothing from that time period can be used as evidence in a trial, even for unofficial personal conduct. so the reason that the judge has a difficulty here is he put off, not just the sentencing, but he also put off the decision on the immunity question, which is also pending. and one thing that's a silver lining. i'm not saying he should have

put it off, but one silver lining by putting off the immunity and sentencing decision is it keeps the case out of the clutches of the supreme court. >> if trump wins the election, we all get the refresher about how a sitting president is in charge of doj rules, so remember that. if he loses, then you expect him to go on trial in dc for the attempted coup? >> absent the supreme court, you know, where it was sort of 6 to 3, 5 to 4, amy coney barrett is someone to keep your eye on because she didn't go along with some of it and showed some sort of good faith

dealing with the issues. the big issue that remains is how much the supreme court continues to mess up that case. if donald trump does not win, the case goes forward. it will go back to the supreme court, however, before there's a trial. there will be a second bite at the apple. then i'm confident the judge is not going to dismiss the case on his own. i'm confident. no way. but ultimately, ultimately if he does that, eventually donald trump will take that to the supreme court to evaluate. now, in a world where donald trump has lost, you can only hope that the supreme court, that there aren't five justices to sort of continue doing what we have seen. i'm not the only legal analyst

that was just shocked at the decision, the presidential immunity decision. >> and i'll just add, i think people have felt a lot of passion, fear, anger, a lot of different questions about what kind of republic we are in the maga era. and my basic overview is it's worse than you thought, but better than it looks: the supreme court is a highly partisan institution. when you went to law school, and when i did, there was a lot of emphasis on understanding the legal doctrines like that's how they make decisions. and i think thank you taught a class today about this court, it would look more like teaching about congress. and if you know someone's red or blue party, you know a heck of a lot about how they'll rule on the big political issues. and it's not supposed to be like that.

it hasn't always been like that. and the warren court wasn't like that. that's the part that's worse. why it's better is on a lot of the key questions, including donald trump's many efforts to overthrow the 2020 election, a similar court, very similar court, um, said no to all that and didn't want to go as far as activity stealing elections. they will, apparently, actively try to politically help them and some enrich themselves and do grifting and take gifts and all these problems. but they didn't go that far. so i get a lot of questions about this campaign season. i think if it's a very close outcome, you can expect a lot of appeals and lawsuits that you get. i think if either candidate wins by several states, biden won by three, the precedent would not suggest the supreme court would try and become a dictator court. that's my thought. i want to give you a response and then we have a couple more

questions from you guys. >> so i teach at nyu, and if i had to grade our legal system as how it holds top political leaders to account, it's an f. so, you know, we think of american exceptionalism and think our legal system is so much more advanced and better than other countries and we have this very sort of myopic view of our world and this country. but if you look at brazil, argentina, italy, france, a whole host of countries have had timely, fair trials of political leaders. and there's not to say there should be a verdict of guilt or not guilty. that's for a jury to determine. but the idea that we have not, other than the judge in new

york, who gets a ton of credit for doing it, that we have lived through what judge cannon has done and the supreme court has done by having a delay of eight months and just clearly to me is undermining the public right to a trial. >> hmm, yeah. we will have more from ari and andrew's conversation as they get personal and take questions from the audience. >> i've always quoted lyrics in my life, but for most of my life it was seen as quirky or annoying. >> guess what. risk of stroke. symptoms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go.

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>> i toll people when they thank me for my service as a veteran, the first thing i say is go vote. >> this is extremely important to me because i'm actually a life long republican. i think it's important to step outside our comfort zone and join the fight to keep democracy alive. >> i'm hopeful and excited and

i'm praying for the best. >> we're back with ari and andrew. here's the rest of their conversation. >> i thought i would ask a question that i heard some of you ask us, which is how did you get here andrew, what are you doing here? because he's a very serious prosecutor, and i will say even though we hear from andrew and our other great lawyers a lot, they spend most of their careers avoiding any comment whatsoever. so you made a big jump. and i will say, and many of you know, 50-cent memorably said i let my car talk for me, let my watch talk for me, hi, what up shorty. by which he didn't have to say much, he let his work or success do the talking. that's what andrew did for many years in government as a prosecutor in this brooklyn district we're in, as general counsel of the fbi.

in the mueller probe we'd never get a comment from anyone, including andrew. so how did you go from that to what you do now? >> i used to say our press person had the the best job ever. it was being paid a full salary to say two words, no comment. when i left the mueller probe and was going into the private sector, one i had seen so many people try to translate what was going on inside to this external audience, and i thought having had had that experience, it might be, i might be good at it and it might be useful. on a more personal level, having been sort of vilified by the maga right, i thought it might be useful for people to make their own judgments based on who i am rather than

the character. okay, but enough about me. um, okay, i want to tell one story on the part about whether i'd be good at it. the very first time i was on hire and there were all these incredible people on with me. andrea mitchell was on, lester holt, savanna guthrie. it was a really high powered group. and you don't know the questions beforehand, it was all impromptu. so it was nerve wracking and not what i've been trained to do at all. and afterwards, the person who's sort of head of talent, i said do you have any comments and questions, like anything i should learn from? she said no, no it was fine. which i knew was not true. but i said give me the feedback, i really need it. and she says well, do you have any other glasses? >> and, um, i was like yes,

but why? and she said are those transition glasses you're wearing? i said are you telling me it looked like i was wearing sun glasses on air? and she's like yes. so you can go back and see that my very first appearance, one person looked like like a rap artist. >> yeah, real rock star energy. >> but i have a question for you, and also karen had a similar question, which is i so admire, as you may know, my taste in music sort of ends with the 18th century. which is why, actually, being right here kind of feels right given its history. but here's the question, how did you become so interested

in music and so adept quoting musical lyrics which we just saw? >> respect. and we have a couple of questions we'll get into. you and karen asked that. i will share this, i don't always talk about it on the program. i went to garfield high school in seattle, that's jimi hendrix' high school. it's quincy jones' high school. so that was the energy and i didn't think about it at the time. we were all really into hip hop, and they had a big marching band, jazz bands. seattle also has the grunge and rock scene. i grew up with my parents vinyls. pre-internet streaming era, music mattered and you were trieding the vinyls and cds, so i really developed the interest then, and i've always been interested in words and

the writing, so the lyrics part came naturally. and i'll share this as well, i've always quoted lyrics in my life, but for most of my life it was seen as quirky or annoying. >> and, and guess what? >> and maybe it still is! but back in the day i'd be in school and in class, and i'd be like well, it's like tupac said, and everyone would be like stop. i do have friends from school who are like we did give you a hard time, but it didn't stop you. you clearly just keep being yourself. and now it's a thing because we had senator booker on, and it was a relatively serious news day. at the end i said thank you for coming on because there are different moments, we don't always have to be dead serious about everything. but at the end of the

interview he looks at me and said what, no lyrics at all? oh, you have something else? >> yeah, okay, so knowing you're a fan of lyrics you have a little test for you. >> oh! i didn't know this! >> seriously, he does not know. >> no, i didn't. >> so i'll give you one hint, which is it is appropriate for where we are. it's the history of the place. so the vengeance of hell boils in my heart, death and despair, flame about me which my describe how many of us felt this past summer. >> that's the lyric? >> it's the the lyric. >> is it a song past 1960? >> i'm giving it, so the

answer is no. another hint. this is big because it's ari, and it's an aria. >> i was going to say when you lose, it's good to lose fast. i don't know. i was thinking some kind of opera. >> you're good. anybody? anybody? okay. it's mozart queen of the night opera. >> shout out to mozart. i want to mention again it's so great to be here and see you back at you. every night all of us, all of our colleagues are looking into this screen and know you're out there. but it's kind of cool as awe community to see each other. we have two more questions from the audience. one is from karen in seattle,

ari, coming from a city like seattle is a progressive place. how can we bridge the gap between so many polarized region in the country? since we have two minutes for that, obviously i have the solution and we'll be good at a nation. and leah from athens, georgia said what's your election night play list? >> i've already given mine. >> exactly. i do think polarization and people living in different pseudorealities especially with media and the internet is a growing problem, but we've also had it for a long time. we've had worse periods. the founders were worried about factionalism. i take some comfort in the fact that it's not the worst ever and we've been through worse problems before. my view is if you get out of

the political clash. obviously if you show up at a rally and you have a jersey, they have the opposite jersey, i'm not sure how much bonding you'll do. but in where life is lived, in your parents' association or school or community or if you worship if you listen and talk back and forth with people, a lot of people still want to learn about each other and engage in facts. sometimes the things we find most are shared from our program are factual breakdowns. i have real optimism about it. i think that's part of it, but not the full situation. and then the play list and andrew gets the last word, my honest answer is when i'm getting ready to go out to work, i usually go for the highest energy high tempo rap. so lil jon, rick ross, classic jay-z. i love reggae on the weekend,

i love classic rock and roll. we had graham nash on the program recently. but if you're asking election night or a big night, music for me works better than caffeine. so if i put on the right song, i get a natural lift for a little while and none of the crash of caffeine. andrew, technically you have a minute and 5 seconds for anything to close us out with. >> i was hoping the question was not going to be about play lists, but what kind of gin you'll be drinking. whether you're shaken or stirred or olives or a twist of lemon, the big down side of msnbc, and i know this is like a little secret, but no

drinking. so. >> none. >> so obviously if you're doing coverage on election night and there are no legal issues, i'll have my own form of a play list. >> there you have it! join me in thanking andrew. thank you guys so much. thank you! coming up, stephanie and i talk money, power and politics and what the state of the economy could be for election day. that's next or msnbc live democracy 2024. ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me ♪ ♪ control is everything to me ♪ and now i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi helped visibly improve

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>> every person in this country deserves to be financially secure, socially free, physically safe, and we have a chance to talk about the american dream because every american certainly deserves to pursue the american dream. >> steph, you've seen the polling. the economy seems to be the number one issue every single day. latest jobs report came out. wasn't the best, wasn't the worst. where do you see the state of the economy today? >> it's always about the economy, right? people say they vote with

their pocketbooks. >> it's the economy stupid. >> yes, millions of americans say i'm not a money person, i don't want to talk about money, think about money, but we need to because it's hugely important. and how is the economy right now? , here's the thing. we're awe country of 330 million people. your entire family isn't facing the same economic picture, but for the most part, we're really good. think about where we are. covid is like child birth. you know how the human body forgets what it's like to give birth? we forget what it was like in covid. it was an economic disaster for this country and the world. we've had an extraordinary recovery. businesses having built, we're hiring, wages are up. compare the united states to every other developed country and we have a better economic recovery. inflation is real, andic tell you of but look, wages are up.

but when you get a raise, you credit yourself with that. you got a raise because you're great at your job. but when everything costs more, you blame the government. that's human nature. and the problem with inflation is we see it in every element of our life. for young people, trying to rent an apartment. for people trying to buy their first home, it's been brutal. because the jobs picture is slowing, we're not in a bad situation, but because it's slowing, we'll get that interest rate cut, which will we relieve things a bit. but the problem with inflation is if you and you went out to dinner right now and got a burger and two beers. >> you drink beer? >> you definitely do, our bill might be 90 bucks. and the problem is we had talk about that for the next 15 minutes. that is why americans don't feel good about the economy. >> recently vice president harris put out an economic proposal. a lot of stuff there was

popular. a certain grant for start up businesses. but it seems like she was penalized for her specificity versus donald trump just says i'll cut taxes and that's it. and price controls or it's going to be a socialist takeover. it seems like everyone ran with that narrative. it's hard sometimes for democrats to be able to speak about that because it seems as though the more they put out, the more they get attacked. >> democrats need to stop apologizing and own it, but the media needs to do a significantly better job of how we're covering it. i do not, i don't have a political background. i have a business background. i would love nothing more than for both parties to put out actual policy proposals. and here's what's stunning,

her plan is more pro business and centrist than president biden's. but what's truly twisted is people aren't taking the time to see that. and when people really just say oh, she's super progressive. what they're really saying is she's a black woman. that's the only thing they're saying. and they're assuming that because she's a black woman, she's going to want x, y, and z and because she's a black woman, that's an amazing part of her, but it has nothing to do with what her economic policies will be. donald trump says i'll be here to cut your taxes. the greatest tax hike will be if we have uni lateral tariffs on everything. >> and vice president harris is different than president

biden. she has strong connections with silicon valley, and wall street at least seems more open to her than president biden. >> 80 ceos came out endorsing her. and big businesses out there are not super political. they want to sell product. >> they don't want chaos. >> right, they want stability. and the unpredictability that we will get in a donald trump presidency is something the majority of business people are not looking for. so there's a huge portion of the country saying this country isn't working for me. i want change but if you're the person over here and it's all working you're saying i want to keep things just as it is. now, that's not great for the country, but that's why we're seeing it. not correct, but i want to make the point when you hear people say i'm not crazy about

donald trump, but from a business perspective, from an economic perspective, no. from an economic perspective, joe biden is presiding over a very good economy. and i invite you to take a look at the specific business people who are backing donald trump. what that is, in my opinion, are people saying it doesn't necessarily matter what he'll do to the overall economy, but how can a donald trump presidency serve me and my business. remember, regulation, not all regulation is good, but smart regulation is good. but idea of a business with no regulation and you'll get a tax cut, that's like candy. that all sounds great. we'll all get tax cuts. you have to pay for it somewhere. and when donald trump says we'll cut taxes and i'll extend the corporate tax cut, donald trump ballooned our deficit, and the one thing he said over and over on the trail, i'll cut corporate taxes again, he's yet to articulate how he's going to pay for them.

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welcome back to to msnbc

live democracy 2024. nearly a dozen of your favorite msnbc host are still to climb plus lawrence o'donnell and rachel maddow take questions from the audience and discuss one thing they have never talked about before, but first, here are joy reed and alex wagner. >> thank you. >> got to get the selfie. >> so smart. it >> hello. thank you all for coming. how amazing is this? >> amazing. thank you, brooklyn.

>> i think we are going to just jump right in because really what we are doing right now is re-creating what happened at the democratic national convention. >> with fewer potato chips, unfortunately. >> and no table. if we had the chips the chips would have no seat. >> they would be in our bodies. >> can we talk about how much fun we had? >> we had too much fun. i felt bad for everybody in new york because who here was at the convention? was anybody at the convention? it was more amazing than anybody thought it was going to be and we got to be there and so can the magic with my longtime friends, one of my favorite people in the world and also at msnbc and we had an endless supply of fried snacks and then kamala harris got the nomination so what could be better? >> the thing that is so interesting as we have had a journey. one of the worst shows i used to watch on a regular basis [

inaudible ] miss alex wengert -- wagner so we've seen a lot of elections come and go. >> rank this one in terms of the intensity of the vibes and the feelings around it. >> so, listen, i think this one holds even more weight because when barack obama was running, he was not running against donald trump. there is the trump factor, which is us standing on the precipice of and times, then there is the kind of candidacy that barack obama represented and one that kamala harris represents, which is the trajectory of american society and culture and what it means for us to be -- whether we are trending towards a more

inclusive, more diverse society and i think in a post-obama trump years, i think a lot of people? was barack obama, did he come too soon, was he an aberration? was it just eight years of us glancing prematurely into a future that was a long ways off and donald trump seems to be such a repudiation of the moral ark of the universe bending toward justice. the harris candidacy, i think, represents an affirmation that the path that obama sort of opened up for the country might actually be its destiny, and that -- and so, you know, it is not just a democrat might save the country from donald trump, it is a democrat who could meaningfully move the ball forward and finally shatter that last glass ceiling, so it is, you know, exponentially, the levels of import, the stakes are so incredibly high and i think that has given rise to a joy that is really powerful

. >> it's interesting because if you think about the trajectory that happened in 2008, you had this incredible thing that happened. the country was born, a slave colony, a series of slave colonies elects its first black president, a remarkable achievement and then four years later he is re-elected and it seemed to be this inexorable path was toward a woman being president and that got interrupted by donald trump and that was a shock to the system that then produces the end of roe v. wade. it produces the end of a right that for a lot of women was unthinkable, a right they would never lose. that is part of the context of now another woman stepping forward, getting the nomination and it is remarkable, the question of whether the country was what president obama represented or whether it is what trump represented as a live question for a lot of people. increasingly there is a sense that maybe trump is the aberration and i think that is an important thing. maybe. and if that happens, one of the people who will deserve the

most credit is an older white man named joe biden. >> yeah. and by the way, i have to throw this in because you were there, alex, and the spin room on the night of the debate. >> i sure was. >> the debate that kicked all of this often so at the time what people were doing in the spin room was trying to say it's going to be fine. >> they were spending as hard as they could. they made docs look like they were taken the day off. i remember talking to gavin newsom like all the republicans came out and it was like stephen miller, matt gaetz and all the trump people, nobody wanted to talk to them and then gavin newsom came out and

everyone was like let's talk to the democrats and see how they are feeling after this. the panic that sat in in the first 10 minutes after that debate is like unlike anything i have ever witnessed. the phones were blowing up and there were so many questions about biden, about the party, about the country and what has unfolded in the course of the last eight weeks, six weeks. >> it's been 2000 years. just to talk about the joe biden of it all, this man who will be seen potentially as the fulcrum around you know -- >> two black presidents. in the first woman. >> not only that but he is there and provides a very important role for obama's candidacy and his presidency and then as president himself in the wake of the covid disaster and economic calamity that was largely the fault of donald trump, and then

potentially does something no one has ever done other than like george washington, to see the power and to make sure that the line of succession is clear and final. i mean, the extraordinary notice of those acts will never be forgotten. >> absolutely, and the thing about it is i liken him to a character in game of thrones who faced nancy pelosi, the most powerful woman other than kamala harris in american history. the most successful and powerful speaker, i would argue ever in history, the most successful speaker, and somebody who it's not as if she was the only person. across the democratic party there was this incredible anxiety. she was just willing to say it out loud on television so it is

not as if she was orchestrating everything that happened but she was willing to put herself out there because of her power and because of the esteem she holds in the party and she said this is what needs to happen and it wasn't just her again. it's really important not to say it's just her and when president biden says all right, i'm going to accede to the wishes of my party but i'm going to do the thing that to me in my view confers the most power. i'm going to name my successor. i'm doing this on my terms and i name this person as my successor. that's a power move. >> it is also -- i think we just have to contrast the two parties in this moment. as you say, it is nancy pelosi leading the charge and i think insofar as you have to lead the charge is going to be a difficult position but doing it in the most respectful way i think you can try and do such a thing, the democratic firmament, like managing the troops, having to go public sometimes, democratic voters making their wishes known and then when kamala harris steps in, rallying around this person with enthusiasm and joy and electricity, it is a party.

i say this after cheney announced [ inaudible ] we want to see what a high functioning, inclusive, well oiled machine looks like, look at the democratic party. >> that was one of the things that was so remarkable about the convention. you saw republican, former members of the trump administration walking around giving love all over the place. you saw adam kinsinger, people who ideologically disagree, it shows you have one political party where everyone is included. >> it's pro-democracy. >> we got more from joy reed and alex wagner on the election, project 2025, and more. stay with us. , and more. stay with us.

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working together, we're building a better future for the city we all love. ad paid for by re-elect mayor london breed 2024. financial disclosures are available at sfethics.org. >> i'm excited to see joy, rachel, simone, just to hear the conversation. i'm here all day so i want to share the conversation people are having because it's important for americans to understand what is happening in our country right now. >> we are back with joy reed and alex wagner at the beautiful brooklyn academy of music. here's the rest of the conversation. >> we've got to talk about kamala debbie harris, you all. she has stepped into the moment when people want to question

what her background is. basically she's alex plus me. just look at the stage, get it in your minds. >> our moms noticed. our moms didn't not notice. >> [ inaudible ] >> like she is asian, too. don't forget that on your television show. >> and the jamaicans, my godmother, they are out of control. the thing is i think she is a polyglot human being. she is what america is because this is how you build america. it is the immigrants that come in and they come in and they become part of this country. she has stepped up and stepped into this moment in a way a lot of people failed to anticipate

because they were not paying attention to her and is two people who did cover her and did pay attention to her it was not surprising but let's talk about how she stepped into it. >> first of all can we just have an agreement that campaigns don't need to be two years long? >> no, like to give it to me. three months undone. nobody needs two years of it. >> i think certainly the media is a huge part of this. it is also kamala harris has grown. you know, she is able to define herself. she is able to speak with confidence, she is able to laugh and be joyful in a way that is exhilarating. i've said this before, for women who watch other women have to sacrifice so much of themselves to be national figures, it is just a thrill to watch someone out there who looks like she's having fun, it looks like she is relishing this not solely because of duty, but she cuts -- wants to be there and talks to people on the campaign trail and enjoys it, and that is something i

think the ability to conduct herself with both confidence is something that has really come to the forefront in the last few years. the experience in washington is like oh you are now the swamp creature. the reality is you can learn some things on the job and maybe having someone who is learned some things is a good prerequisite for president. >> she would be one of the most experienced figures to ever take off as if she were to win the white house but we've got to talk about her running mate because your first big decision is to choose your partner and you've got to choose your road dog. you know, president obama chose joe biden. he really in many ways was one of the most effective vice presidents ever.

he gave it demographically what was needed. he gave it the washington experience needed. very smart choice. let's talk about coach walz, you all. first of all, he knows how to order a donut, which i think actually maybe should be one of the prerequisites going forward. >> maybe just some grasp of humanity. if you guys have not seen the jd vance at the donut shop video, like -- people text me. we played it on alex wagner tonight and people were mad at me. they were like why did you subject me to that. it's worse than a cringe. >> it's almost as painful as him being on the podcast with the gentleman who said boy, it's a good thing you have that indian mother-in-law to nanny your kids. >> well, when jd vance starts talking about ovulation and menopause -- i will say one of the wonderful things -- there are so many wonderful things about being at the convention but you can tell what the mood of the convention speaker, the what the main speaker is going to be when they bring out these long signs like thank you joe

or we heart joe was the sign the first night and then on i guess it was tuesday. wednesday. walz was going to take it and they brought out sign that said we love coach walz. and i was like oh, this is going to be like a pep rally because he's the governor of minnesota. it could've said governor walz or congressman walz or mr. walls but it was like coach walz. then you could hear like marching bands it was like oh, we're turning this and to like homecoming. >> 100% and by the way when i tell you i think the minnesota delegation is still in the arena. they weren't leaving. people were cleaning around them and they were like there's no party. they were like were here, were happy and they were like everyone's gone and they were like we don't care. >> didn't care. >> they are still there.

>> there ain't no party like a walz party. >> we need to talk briefly about the other side because it's been a few months for trump and vance. they've had a rough time. >> they have had a rough time and i think this is a point we need to discuss with our friends and neighbors because so much of the year was spent talking about joe biden's cognitive abilities. if you have listened to donald trump the last -- the man is giving rambling, incoherent answers i very much beg the question if he is still playing with a full deck. that part of the conversation -- i'm not trying to be ageist. my mom is 80 and she cannot debate donald trump in a heartbeat, but i do think if we are concerned about the mental health and acuity and cognitive skills of the commander of our armed forces and one of the most powerful leaders in the free world, all should publicans -- republicans should have the

same conversations all democrats had about exactly how high functioning donald trump is. >> i think it's even more important to have that conversation because you have a group of people from the heritage foundation and from his former administration that have already made plans to run the country. they've already written it down. it is called project 2025 and if donald trump is not at his full cognitive capacity, then one wonders well, who would be making policy, who would be making decisions? the answer is that the ready- made playbook is what we would be living under and that playbook is things like getting rid of the department of education, a national abortion ban, calling the health and human services department the department of life, essentially having a handmade menu. >> in which robert f kennedy in some way would be attached to and some fashion. that is the reality of what we are staying -- staring down.

>> are we going to have their carcasses in the white house been served for dinner? that is how you get a brain worm. that is how the worm gets in the brain. the carcass by the side of the road, don't eat them. >> i keep going back to the cheney thing because i'm not a fan of much of what cheney has done with his life but i think it is so in negative of a party that has shrunk itself, has atrophied to the point that even the staunchest most hard like -- hard-line conservatives to feel like they have no place there and that tells you that first of all i mean, there are huge questions about our two- party system, whether we can go on like this even if trump loses, like what becomes of the republican party? what are its values? what does it mean to have a two- party system when one party does not have values at all. >> and when it is protected by an arcane electoral cartage

that takes advantage even when it cannot win the majority. we have a problem in an anti- majority democracy and a low participation democracy. >> and the supreme court run by conservatives. >> it's a lot. this is fun. >> i know we have some legal experts like chris hayes and kate shaw coming up to talk. that's a deep tease for later. >> coming up. >> my favorite part of the show happens to be the highest rated part of the show. which is the moment when rachel says good evening to me. >> you watch their hand off every monday night on msnbc. now, lawrence o'donnell and rachel maddow take the stage together. you don't want to miss this. you're watching msnbc live democracy 2024. ercedes,

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i don't think i have to say their names because right about now, it's going to be 9:59 p.m. on a monday. >> that does it for us tonight. now, it is time for the last word with lauren's -- lawrence o'donnell. lawrence, congratulations, hi. >> great to be here, rachel. ready to go in the first show. i could not have a better lead- in. >> frankly there's nobody i would rather hear from in the world right now than lawrence o'donnell.

>> thank you to the smartest cable news host now that you mention it. thanks, rachel. >> thank you, lawrence. >> i love doing that. >> rachel is blushing. keep the camera on it. >> senator, did you and rachel see me during that last commercial break standing over in the corner of the studio because what i was going to do -- i'm not there now, but what i was going to do is beg you to come on this program at your convenience at some point in the future. >> i got to spend some real time hanging with your mother and father and your brother, just a little over a week ago. >> i will tell everybody what you're talking about. i had a book event. lawrence came with his brothers. it was fantastic. it was really nice, and lawrence, i did not get to see you at the event at all but you sat with my family and they are all in love with you. >> i hobbled in here on a cane tonight but rachel, we are but weeks away from you and me back

on the dance floor saturday night like we always do in this town. you know. doing that you know, jennifer gray patrick swayze thing that we do every saturday night. >> the thing that i like as we get to switch off who gets to be jennifer. >> that was our little secret until now. thanks, rachel, thanks a lot. i got some serious work to do here. >> twirl. twirl me. now i twirl you. before the night is over, you will let me twirl you. >> that was not in the rehearsal. >> i forgot to go to the rehearsal.

>> i think it is pretty obvious to everyone here, and i think i've said this publicly, my favorite part of the show happens to be the highest rated part of the show, which is the moment when rachel says good evening to me. which some of you may have noticed i might enjoy a little too much. but, here is what happens to me. when i run into fans of msnbc on the street and so forth, the very first thing they will say to me is oh, my favorite thing about your show is the rachel handoff. and i get it. it happens to be my favorite part of the show and i'm sure they speak for millions when they say that. but, thanks to twitter, there are other views of the handoff.

for example, here is one. this is important, the timing on this. it was written at 10: 04 p.m. 1004 p.m., so you can imagine the depth of feeling of this particular tweet. to me. i just can't watch the handoff from maddow to lawrence. i can't watch rachel being taken hostage for umpteen minutes. i just think that side of the audience deserves a fair hearing. >> so, my favorite thing about the handoff is that i have no clue what you're going to say.

ever. like and you know what? there are other shows and other handovers where i think the producers talk to each other on this so you know, my hostess can ask about this thing that is coming up or i know that my host is interested in this thing you're doing. that does not happen with me and lawrence, so it could be me and your mom talking about what we are going to do for thanksgiving. that can come up. okay, you're coming for thanksgiving. that's good to know. it could be this thing that you just did, i have a better guest than you on that coming up. it could be this thing you said in your letter a block, which i've now forgotten because it was 44 minutes ago was interesting. i would like to ask you some in- depth follow-up questions on it and i don't remember what it is so i feel like the one thing to note is, do i look frozen in

that moment because if you are speaking, i feel like the one thing we have in a tacit way worked out between us is if i look like i might be paralyzed, not moving, not blinking, nothing, lawrence knows to keep talking until i come out the other side of the shock and have something to say. we have never talked about it before. it is like the issue in your relationship that is not going badly and so you don't bring it up in therapy because it's not broken. >> and i -- this is good. this is all the tough stuff we don't have time for on tv. i need a favor. >> okay. >> i am in giant trouble with my publisher. i am literally years behind on the deadline for my next book, which will be my third book, which no one knows because there is so much distance between the books, people forget. >> you have a topic or title? >> yeah, if there's a title. that's painful, so when i make in my excuses to the publisher about well, i got to cover the trunk trial and i've got to cover the campaign and all of

that, i know that lurking in the background, and they say this out loud every once in a while, is the fact that in the number of years this book has been overdue, you have chosen to produce a couple of giant podcasts that are as much work as a book. one of them, steal -- steven spielberg's [ inaudible ] you've got a documentary out now and you've produced a book or two in the number of years i have delivered nothing so my favorite is, rachel, would you please stop. >> would you like to write a book together? or do a podcast together? we could do that, can we? >> yes, let's do that. now we're getting somewhere.

good working session. i was going to say, if you can't stop, because i have a suspicion you can't, could you, do you believe it could ever be possible to teach a guy to multitask? >> i mean, listen. the reason i have been able to get the stuff done that you just so generously described is because i have driven myself down to be a mere husk of a person whereas you have a full, rich life with humans, activities, relatives. lawrence came to my book event. he came by boat. who goes to a thing by boat? because he was boding. i don't boat. i don't do these things. i have nothing in my life, lawrence. can i ask your politics question? >> you can. >> before president biden decided not to run, you were very outspoken in your belief

that he would win, he did not need to drop out in order to win, that if he stayed in the race, he would win, and a very different take on it than many of your colleagues and one that i think was a real lifeline for a lot of people in this country including a lot of people in my own family and my own friend group. now that president biden is not running, do you think vice president harris has the same, better, or worse chance of winning than he did? >> i think she now has a better chance, and i do -- here is a couple of things about that whole period. the period actually began in january. there were op-ed pieces and people arguing back in january. at the time i just raised a very simple thing in defense of the biden candidacy, which is that he was pulling against trump better than anyone else

by far and by the way, the next one down is kamala harris and i knew and they made this pretty clear that everyone who wanted to get rid of joe biden also wanted to get rid of kamala harris. pretty much every one of them. they thought she would be a terrible nominee and so they were imagining some dreamscape of a convention of some sorts that would be contested and all that and when they came up with all that i simply pointed out, here are your challenges and possible nightmares with the contested convention and as it became more and more pointed issue, and after that debate with trump when joe biden obviously had failures on the stage, what i kept saying every night as number one, i don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. i do not know. at a certain point, i certainly know what should happen but i know it was an extremely difficult decision because it is never happened before and i am an extremely conservative analyst of politics, which is to say, i am always going to

choose the most conservative, careful choice in governing in politics or campaigning and always did when i was in it. i'm not the one who's going to experiment with the thing i've never done before and so joe biden made the decision. that's the thing that always has to be remembered. he decided. joe biden knew better than i did every single day. joe biden knew better than i did what he was capable of. he knew better than i did how to calculate on any given day on the calendar, what should we do tomorrow because remember, that is what politics is, it is what should we do tomorrow and so on certain dates on the calendar what joe biden thought he should do tomorrow is go out and do an interview at leicester hall, go out and try to do a campaign speech. there came a saturday afternoon where he decided what we should do tomorrow is hand this campaign to kamala harris, and make absolutely sure that it is

a seamless and instantaneous nomination transition to kamala harris, and that there is no contest, and i think he achieved that. he achieved it with the timing like literally if he had done it the sunday before, i don't know. i don't know. if you did it seven days before what a candidate jump up and say hey, me? i don't know. and so you know, i was just watching everyone -- everyone had a wish of like i wish we had a younger nominee and what i would point out to everyone who was wishing that was i understand but here are all of your challenges and trying to jump from this iceburgh to that iceberg and there is a lot of cold water in between. >> when we come back, lawrence and rachel take questions from the audience and lawrence gets personal about why rachel is so important to him. stay right here.

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...instead of for where you are most of the time? xfinity mobile was designed for where you need it most. xfinity internet customers, ask how to get a free 5g phone and a second unlimited line free for a year. >> i love rachel maddow and i love lawrence. >> we are back with more of lawrence o'donnell and rachel maddow's conversation, including how they bring their shows to life. >> i have a question from the audience. for you. it is from york, pennsylvania. >> hi. >> how do you decide toxin questions for guests and

contributors. >> there is no easy answer to that. the best part of the job definitely is getting to decide not exactly what to say on the specific thing, but what to talk about. what counts as the news of the day that you want to say something about that you have something to offer, that you want to hear from a newsmaker or a guest or another about another story selection process to me is the most difficult and most intellectually engaging in most rewarding part of it. much more rewarding to me, much more difficult than the actual writing what there is to say about it and i value the auditorium -- editorial freedom we've got. nbc is not one of those networks where there is a boss chomping cigars and saying these are the six things are covering today. we are not that kind of a place. they trust us enough to abide by nbc rules and standards, to make our decisions about what is newsworthy, to cover what we want and to not cover what we

don't want and that is a blessing. so yeah, it is the art of what we do, not the science, and i love it. >> yeah, i try to come to that as late as possible. so, i am a collector of lazy excuses that are legitimate. the first one that i ever had was on my first book that was so long ago, larry king had a radio show. so, larry king, who had the biggest radio show in america was a big deal for a book and i was one minute before going on. the studio was in washington, d.c. and he turns to me before we start and he says, i never read the books. because it is talk radio, right? he says you know because if i read the books i might think

you are too interesting. i have to hear it here. i have to here at the way they are hearing it. then i will know how long i want to listen to this. that's the last thing i hear and i think this is genius. the laziest possible choice. totally legitimate and marlon brando at the end of his career, he never read a script, never learned line because he said the line would be fed into his ear, he said the line -- you said the line and marlin would wait a while and he would say the line. then he goes i don't want to know what i'm going to say. >> of heroic pause. >> so in the spirit of that, i tell myself that i need to come to it as late as possible because i might find myself to attach to something at 10:00 a.m. that i am no longer caring about it 2:00 because something happened at 12 and all of that, and it kind of is totally

justifiable. you can be the judge of whether it works. >> i do that with guests. i don't like to book guests way in advance. it's not a very guest-driven show, but i like to pick topics when things occur to me but then when it comes to who is going to come on the show and talk about it, that to me, i still think it's magic. how do you persuade a person to come on television and talk to you about understory? i have no idea. i don't understand how the process works and i'm too afraid to call people so other people have to do that work and i make them do it very late in the game. >> yes, i never ask people to come on the show because when i was working for linehan, every request was considered a burden and he turned down 99 out of 100. he always did tim russert's show because tim used to work for him and he loved tim russert. that was the only one that was automatic but i have always seen the invitation request to be on my show as a burden, so i never

-- by the way, you might notice, it's also lazy that i have never asked anyone but right? there's a legitimacy to that reasoning. let's go back to the handoff. they just shows -- showed the very first handoff from my very first show and then we stopped doing it for years. do you remember when we resumed? >> well, it was a little more important to me, and as you can tell, everybody who accuses me of beating so needy and those handoffs is underestimating the neediness involved. i got knocked out of the show for almost four months in 2014. i was in a taxi accident and i broke a lot of bones and i cannot walk for a long time and i had to learn to walk again. i finally was coming back and i

was so profoundly out of it, i did not know how to do the show anymore. it was like it really was like you know, throwing a baby into the deep end of the pool. i had no idea how to come back into this and i signaled that by coming on without a necktie. it's not the guy you are used to seeing. i had a beer -- beard, so i have these external signals of it's not really me and i don't really quite know what i'm doing and at the very last minute, very last minute, i said to cordate, asked rachel to say good evening to me tonight and we had stopped doing that because in those days i could pretaped the show on thursday nights, fly to l.a. at 9:00 p.m. on thursday night, drive until the school bus stopped friday morning, pick her up from school on friday so you could i thought, i can't do handoff in

a tape show on thursday therefore i can never do one so we just stopped doing them and had not done them in years and the only thing i was conscious of and asking that rachel say good evening to me was i felt like i needed an introduction, like it's the ari melber show now, like do they remember this guy and rachel will say my name and say good evening to me and then you know, we will get going and this miraculous thing happen because i was in the studio in l.a. and rachel was in new york and she did that thing, good evening lawrence, and i, who was completely really disoriented to the point where i was not sure that i could get to the first commercial, i wasn't sure i could get through this weirdness of what i was doing of coming back to the show and rachel said good evening. she started talking to me and the one thing i knew i knew how to do is talk to rachel.

and so we talked, and she really was -- you don't know this. i've never said this, but -- what she was really doing in this astonishingly maternal way that she didn't even -- using a power she didn't even know she had or was using in that moment was reaching down to that little boy and picking him up off the floor into his highchair , which was a highchair because i could not actually sit. i had to sort of lean, and saying, it's going to be okay. you can do this and so yeah. it means a lot. and so the next night i said

tell rachel to say good evening to me every night, and she's been stuck for 10 years. >> whatever you do in your life, whatever you do for work, whatever organizing principle you have that involves other principal in your life, first of all make sure you have something in your life that involves other people. even if you work alone some aspect of your life has to have regular engagement with other people you can look in the eye and if you are lucky enough to have colleagues who are mutually supportive, mutually respectful, brilliant, and kind even in difficult circumstances and even when you disagree, never let that person know. >> rachel maddow gets tonight's last word. >> thank you.

>> don't go anywhere. coming up in our next hour,. j psaki, senator claire mccaskill, andrea l mitchell, chris hayes, his wife, law professor kate shaw, and the host of the weekend. we will be right back. weekend. we will be right back. with flexible payment options. look, a chemical reaction! oh! [robotic sound] for a great low rate, go with the general. hit it again, gen!

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their favorite msnbc hosts live and in person. we've already seen steve kornacki, rachel maddow, joy reid, and so many others, but we are not done. coming up, chris hayes interviews his wife and constitutional law scholar kate shaw. we will hear from the weekend hose alesia mendez is, michael steele and symone sanders- townsend. first, here are jen psaki, senator claire mccaskill, and andrea mitchell. >> [ applause ] >> thank you. >> hi, everyone. this is such a good crowd. okay. thank you for having us. okay. so, let me start with you. vice president kamala harris, she would be a historic president on multiple fronts. she doesn't where that on her sleeve. she didn't wear white the night of her speech. she does not talk often about being the first.

what do you -- you know her well, why is that? >> i think she understands it to be elected president of the united states, you first have to convince the american public that you are qualified to do the job, that you are capable of doing the job, and some things can be left unsaid. if you lead with that, then it becomes a topic. she doesn't want the topic to be her gender or whether she is black or she's south asian. any of the. she wants the conversation to be about what she can do for you. that's what she wants the conversation to be about. the discipline she is showing about doing that, not going there, you do see a lot of pictures, which is not by accident wishes to win, they call them otr's or whatever they call them. she stops for young girls.

if you notice, she sees in the media, she is talking to young girls. that is sending a message without having to say a word and a much more effective way to do it. she wants to make sure the american people know she's ready to go to toe to toe with kim jong un. >> [ applause ] >> you have covered the campaign very closely. if covered other female candidates. is this a sign of progress? a sign of a different strategy? what is it a sign of? >> it is a sign of progress. it is exciting to be who broke into a business who i was the only woman in the newsroom in philadelphia, pretty big town i started out in in the radio newsroom. i could only work in the night shift i wouldn't be seen during the day. i was called copy boy.

there is a lot that has changed. >> hashtag copy boy. >> in our profession, look at the women leading our networks, our bosses are women, our camera people, all kinds of editors, and my colleagues and anchors. the difference in politics has been so profound. hillary clinton, when she was the first lady in 1991, 92, white house correspondent i was with them. hillary clinton by talking so much about gender and perhaps was not a good tactic for her to emphasize it as much as she did made it possible for kamala harris not to have to talk about that. the other piece is she was so active after the dobbs decision, so she has been the primary advocate against dobbs and for reproductive rights for the administration. that has been one of her signature roles. >> no question.

one of the things, i have won a difficult senate race or covered politics since 1972, but when i was the white house press secretary, the first day, i was so relieved. it was an honor and i was relieved. this wonderful woman texted me and said you did great. one suggestion. you should look like maybe you are wearing some makeup when you are out there. it was not a bad thing. i use this as an example, and i wanted to is clear, there are all sorts of pressures on women. are you likable? are you friendly, are you strong and fierce? i'm not going to do the barbie monologue, but you get my just. there are things, campaigning is a lot of work on candidates. you have to look good for pictures. what are the things people are not aware of that are challenging when running for high-level office, as a woman?

>> one of the brilliant things that kamala harris has done she adopted a uniform. right? [ applause ] i always was jealous because i could not decide, do i wear a suit like they do? a little type. can i wear pants all the time. to i need to wear a dress? she from wired -- day one said, it's pantsuits. she rocks the pantsuits and it will be pantsuits all day. i won't be surprised if she turns of a pantsuit at the inaugural ball. i think she has figured out that if we focus on the things that are irritating to us as women, we take up too much energy. light, have you noticed how much she is embracing loving to cook? yeah? i love that. you might've noticed that i bake. >> a huge baker.

>> that is a huge progress because back in the day, if you were a woman candidate, when i first started running years ago, we -- i never would've done the. when i was running for da, wouldn't even put my children in the picture because i was afraid they would think, she is abandoning her children to be the prosecutor, probably not tough enough to be the prosecutor. look at the progress we have made. we can now cook. we can bake, and we can be commander in chief all at the same time. >> even someone at the pinnacle, we have a supreme court justice ketanji brown jackson [ cheers and applause ], and i know her from washington and as a clerk at the court and as a judge, now a supreme court justice, and she writes this

book about the turmoil she felt because her husband was medical, should two small girls , she was just beginning and her job and had to decide if she could pick up the kids at school. we all share that. we are there we have kids are older or young, on gender, we sure that and it's a bond. i have learned that in my profession with women reporters that it's unbreakable. if you respond is people and don't feel you have to hide that part of your life. >> i will tell you, andrea mitchell is like the kindest person to other women. it will surprise you at all. it is very true. i want to get to audience questions and i could talk to you forever, but we have other panels. i did want to ask you, this -- october surprises, but it's the things unexpected. i want to take it to the editorial meetings and rooms. by the way, every news

organization, every campaign plans for the possible things that can happen. you see where this is going. andrea, what are the things is a longtime journalist you are watching for, could happen, may not happen. think of the iran hostages and jimmy carter what happened before his election. the night before the election, he was crisscrossing the country and flew back. i was standing on the south lawn and he had to come back because there was a possibility they were released. they were released at 12:01 when ronald reagan was sworn in. that was the worst possible october surprise. access hollywood was a huge october surprise. the debate, the trump campaign tried to trot out these women who had made accusations against hillary's husband in the past and see them in the front row and the presidential debate commission wouldn't start

unless they moved them aside. to create that star and distraction. there were october surprises and the fact is it will be a close election, everybody. nobody should make a prediction about this. we can talk about blue walls and 270 and steve kornacki is the expert, and he knows better than anyone that anything can happen. ask hillary clinton, 11 days before when we are flying to what and they come up with a new laptop and more emails and the fbi director says, two days before the election on a sunday night in new hampshire and he says never mind, we were wrong. and they saw the polls go down. >> we all remember this. remember the access hollywood tape came out. i think we all remember where we were. it was the same day that the u.s. government, and i was in the government at the time, finally but at the statement that russia was behind the hack. it was the same day which you forget.

this is the same day. it's okay, access hollywood, that will change things and it did not. anyway, claire, what are you looking out for? you have run many tough campaigns. what are they red teaming as they say in the harris/walz world right now. >> when you look at the things we have discussed, probably they were not discussed ahead of time and that's why they were surprises. i don't know that i can guess what the surprise will be. if i knew what it was, it wouldn't be a surprise. we would be telling you right now. i tell you what i'm holding out for. i am holding out for a philadelphia rally with the warm-up act is beyonce and taylor swift. >> [ cheers and applause ] >> we love it. i want to get to audience questions. claire, this is from cora from new jersey. if you are here, you can give a shout and we will know where you are.

the question is, trump loses this election will a finally dismantle maga? what will the gop look like post trump? that is a biggie. you have 40 seconds. just kidding. >> put me on the clock. it's a really good question. i do not think, i am from a state where the main lined donald trump. keep in mind i won an election by 15 points in 2012 and lost by six in 2018 to a guy who was hugging trump. trump came in the state time after time and was there two nights before with sean hannity on stage with him, rush limbaugh on stage with them. sarah palin on stage with him. he won by almost 20 in my stay. what happened? the mainlining of grievance and that will be there after trump is gone. i'm not sure maga goes away. if you notice, vance and some

jerk named josh holly [ applause ] and others are taking this mantle up. they are actually embracing a. most republicans in the u.s. senate think it is awful. they are too scared to say it out loud. there is a core number of house members and senate members who think they will be the next donald trump, and they will try. it remains to be seen whether this called a personality is transferable. i am not sure. i don't get it so it's hard for me to explain it. it's hard for me to prognosticate around it. i don't think you will return to the republican party of mitt romney, george bush, ronald reagan, which is smaller government, free trade, strong foreign policy. you have this populism, nationalism baked into the base of the republican party. someone will want to take advantage of that.

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welcome back. chris hayes brought a special guest. constitutional law scholar kate shaw who also happens to be his wife. take a look.

>> [ applause ] spent hi, guys. hi, babe. who has our kids? i'm kidding. i'm sure someone has them. we are going to talk about the election that's coming up and particularly the legal landscape around it. i am thinking about, been a practitioner too. your previous life you worked in the campaign and transition and the white house counsel office. i wanted to start with a question about, how folks that are not legal experts watching, what you are looking for in terms of issue spotting.? there's a lot of election -- it was all frivolous and didn't amount to anything. what are you looking out for in the legal landscape now until election day and postelection.

>> margins are everything. we have this idea of a margin of litigation. if an election is close enough in a particular state, it could turn it into a w and change the outcome. we were spared having a state within a margin of litigation in 2020. pretty close outcomes in wisconsin and arizona and georgia, but not in the couple hundred votes even though thousand votes which i think my to put us within the margin of litigation. could've thrown into question the outcome in those states. if we have states that are closer in the cycle, then i think a lot of the focus will shift to the courts. we are seeing right now some of the groundwork for some of those potential postelection lawsuits being filed around things like absentee ballot returns. the ability to correct a ballot that has an will mission or air were on it. there's a strong presumption if you file a lawsuit after-the-

fact, challenging election rules in place before the election, that's a very steep hill to climb to succeed. i think that's why we have seen some of those lawsuits filed now. the likelihood of success and potential impact on the national electoral map will turn on how close the results are in these critical battleground states. >> the notorious donald trump phone call to brad raffensperger in georgia, you remember that? >> bad call. >> there is a funny quote, fellas, need 11,000 votes. come on. 11,000 votes is a lot of votes. in the case of florida famously in 2000, that margin was 537 or something like that. the margin really does matter. what you are saying is if

you're in the category of 10,000 votes, even 5000 votes, the litigation is not going to be determining it anyway. >> it is unlikely. it's the margin and with the legal teams look like in some ways. this is something especially since the cheney announcement, there could be this moment of reckoning for the legal profession. we know from here that donald trump has said very clearly his not going to accept any outcome in which he is not the victor. he will bring lawsuits to challenge results and states he loses. we know this. how plausible those lawsuits will be turned in part on how close the results are, but what team of lawyers he is able to assemble, and i think it's a moment when conservative lawyers, republican lawyers could basically say, you cannot sign on to facilitate an antidemocratic effort.

an offer that's a power plant in search of a legal theory because that's what it would be. an effort to subvert the results in a state using whatever set of claims you could manufacture. you cannot sign on to that and remain a member in good standing. i think that would be a powerful message. [ applause ] >> i mean, this is someone saying, we have enough votes and we don't need more votes. he told dr. phil the other day, why? i don't know. that if jesus counted the votes in california, he would've won in california. i did not make that up. 's contention is is impossible for him to lose and anything he loses is rigged. the other thing i want to talk about entry wrote a book -- a review of a book making the argument for popular democracy in the u.s., getting rid of the electoral fallout college.

you have made the point before and you made it to me in private and publicly and things you have written for "the new york times" op-ed page, there's a bunch of reason the electoral college is bad offers principled democratic grounds and on the fact that huge swaths of the country, every voter in wyoming and voter in california has no say over the electoral outcome. that is bad. the goldberg machine that is the electoral college, it's an attractive nuisance. it's like a co-uncovered swimming pool for donald trump to play in. because it's a complicated machinery, there's dates and points of intervention to try to explain that will be around this. >> not just antidemocratic character but the very complexity of the electoral college, the different deadlines that have been and in congress, each of those is a potential vulnerability and opportunity for expectation and mischief. i think that's the deficits of

the electoral college is a bigger problem, but it's a enormous problem. there has been some reform in the electoral college, the electoral count reform act past two years ago, somewhat cleans up some parts of this righetti 1887 statute that governs a lot of the process by which we translate votes in the election. there are still opportunities for exploitation and mischief, and it's a huge part of the problem. if we needed another reason to be deeply skeptical of the electoral college and committed to reform, it's susceptibility to exploitation by bad actors is an important one. >> and if you take away anything about the way margins matter, the closest election of our lifetime which was 2000, national popular vote and al gore won by 500,000 votes. he lost florida by 500 votes. it's impossible to imagine a national popular vote margin that's 500 votes. even a close race, the law of

large numbers will be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. the defining stay, pennsylvania could come down to 1000 votes. you are inviting a situation, the determent of result was in that margin of litigation and everyone countered every vote across the nation you won't end up with marginal litigation. >> joe biden won 7 million votes and it will be a popular vote victory, whatever happens in the electoral college for vice president kamala harris. if it comes down to pennsylvania where we are within a couple thousand votes, potentially, only because of the electoral college could be in a position in which the courts will be deciding that the next president is. coming up. >> were presented to the date you both discuss politics? >> chris and take -- kate take audience questions. audience questions.

welcome back. it's time for audience questions. here again are chris hayes and kate shaw. >> that brings us to our first question. this comes from jeffrey from the bronx, are they in the house today? it relates to this, can the supreme court overturned the 2012 election of donald trump loses? how can the constitution protect the peaceful transfer of power? >> we did see, bush v. gore,

2000, that supreme court decided the outcome of that election. there is precedent for the court decided the outcome of a close presidential election. i think, as we have been talking about, that only becomes a realistic possibility if there is one, maybe two states in which things are close enough for a lawsuit that is well lawyered enough that it has some facial plausibility that then looks like a throw into question the result in that state, and then someone could get the case before the supreme court and, i think there's reason to be very, very alarmed about what we've seen from the supreme court in the last few years and what it might do if given the power to decide the outcome of the presidential election. >> you don't want to give this crew a second run of bush v. gore. that seems a bad idea. this one comes from beth from

your hometown of chicago, illinois. is chicago in the house? does kate shaw believe president biden or president harris, kamala harris wins should pursue adding more justices to the supreme court? [ applause ] the crowd likes that. so far, you are down on the brad raffensperger and down on the supreme court. what do you think? >> i have come around and increasing the surprise of the supreme court. that's a significant and serious step that i believe it's warranted. it also has expansion of the supreme court has the advantage of being achievable by ordinary legislation and all it takes is a democratic congress and president and maybe filibuster reform, and the surprise of the supreme court is not set in the

constitution. by ordinary legislation you can add a few justices. that has the potential to change in supreme court and the way other important and needed supreme court reforms like ethics reform [ applause ], so that should be a no-brainer. it would change some aspects of being a supreme court justice. in terms of impact on the composition of the court? it might incentivize retirements, but i don't think it would immediately change a composition in a way that expansion would. have come around to thinking that should be something that is pursued but should be high on the legislative priority agenda. >> [ applause ] >> sorry. i had one here. where did you go? anthony in detroit. this is a great question.

is there an effective way for me to better frame how impactful the overturning of chevron is without my friends to death? >> i struggle with this too. my students. my friends. people understand this really why overturning roe v wade was so important and no one has to struggle to explain that. it's more difficult to explain why overturning chevron versus natural resources defense council was important, but it was. the supreme court overturned a 40-year-old precedent called chevron. this is the best way to communicate it. congress passes a lot of laws and some have general terms in them. if congress passes a law saying, workers in hazardous workplaces have to wear sufficient protective equipment , somebody has to decide what sufficient means. you have a couple of choices.

you have experts and agencies like the department of labor, osha, who study workplaces who understand what kinds of protective equipment is available, would be effective or real subject matter experts. they could decide what is sufficient or clarence thomas with a dictionary could decide what is sufficient? the supreme court said last term is the guy with the dictionary. that is who will decide what statutes mean instead of experts and agencies. that has catastrophic consequences for things like workplace fety and all of our safety, health, well-being around food and drugs in the air we breathe and water we drink. it's this reactionary supreme court rather than experts and administrative agencies who will be deciding what all these statutes mean and to my mind, that's a troubling development. i hope that helps with the

cocktail party discussions. >> did you get that, anthony? this is from, it's from york, pennsylvania. we are hoping she is registered to vote tend her friends register to vote. pennsylvania, your vote counts. she asked both of us, what percentage of the date you both discuss politics? [ laughter ] >> what would you say? >> we have a screen time app that tells us. a fair amount of time. obviously, the vast majority of what we talk about is logistics of our children. >> teams practices. and then the latest registration data out of pennsylvania. that is next. >> we do talk about this a lot.

>> this is a law professor answer, but we talked in constitutional law you think of high politics and low politics. partisan politics not much really at all. high politics, thinking about the nature of government. we don't talk about that every day. there is a combination of the two but partisan politics, not that much. low single digit percentage. >> we were on vacation when the announcement came from president biden that he was not going to pursue the nomination, and endorsed kamala harris. we did talk about that a little on vacation. just a little. one more personal question and then we will go to a final question which is an important one. how many people are on your team to research the topic see present in the news? how do you and your wife get

rest and perspective during intense news cycles. we have about 22, 25 folks on our team to produce the show. people to booking producers, line producers, segment producers and doing graphics. executive producers. it's a team around there. in terms of perspective and rest, i need to sleep a lot. i tend to go back to sleep. we get up and get the kids to school and i go back to sleep a little bit. i mean as much time as i possibly can. >> chris is a champion -- one of the best nappers. it's his superpower. he can catch a nap anywhere at a moments notice. >> plugging in your iphone. >> sometimes you restart him and it's great.

for a while, you were -- for a long time, you were sheepish about this. >> it is humiliating. >> it's incredibly important and it means during your waking hours, you are like unbelievably productive and present. if that's the way the day breaks down for you, there's nothing embarrassing about it. >> she gets four hours asleep and i. runs 10 miles a day. >> i don't need that much sleep. >> a question about the election and the most significant. the big question is, what happens if election officials refuse to certified election results. this was a big one. in wayne county, the closest was wayne county, bipartisan county board. there's no partisan majority. republicans balked at certifying those election results and switched back to

certifying then got mobbed by trumpet tried to rescind their certification. one republic and crossed over and certified. there's this talk about county level, state-level, what happens if they don't certify? >> we don't have good -- and a little is playing out right now in georgia with the state election board issued a new regulation that seems to remove the application to certify, it's in the state statute and there's litigation challenging already challenging the lawfulness of that. hopefully, pre-election litigation will make clear that certification is an obligation, and that will remove any suspense or uncertainty of what could happen after the fact. you have to certify on a certain date in december and the votes stand where they stand at that point. we probably are back where we started which is because is unchartered, we might end back before this supreme court

making the determination under the federal constitution and if they have to invent a legal theory, that might be where we are. up next, the weekend warriors. alicia menendez, michael steele, and symone sanders- townsend breakdown as some voters are responding to the so- called switch. they will explain. l explain.

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how is it going? >> okay. >> can they hear me now? all right. how did you get in the middle? >> what's up? how is everybody doing? >> this is late. this is usually the time, has been is like you need to wrap it up and get home. >> i'm usually just starting at this time. >> it's problematic because we go to work at the same time. >> symone and our colleague have been working on a special about black women in this country and black women as voters and the keeper for to the switch from biden to harris, the switch. >> that is what young black women across the country, when we spoke with them, they said, since the switch, and we were like, what switch?

[ laughter ] they said the switch at the top of the ticket. since the switch, a lot of voters are thinking, expensively, about what they will do in the selection. black women chief among them and who will make a difference in the margins because that's where this will be one color loss. >> i bring it up because it opened a lot for different demographics and a focus on the latino vote which will be huge in arizona and nevada. it will play a big role in pennsylvania, wisconsin, and north carolina, and georgia. to your point, not the same boat share is arizona and nevada but it's an election that will be won on the margins. there was something that happen with latino voters when there was the switch which was when it was biden and trump there were a lot of latino voters who

did not like there choices. with harris, the numbers have changed. they have normalize. they are not at 2020 levels of support for biden. they are nowhere near obama levels of support. a lot of folks look at that and say, what is happening? there are a few things happening. number 1, it's important to recognize the majority of latinos will vote for democrats. there's some softness. there's openness to donald trump. our colleague is a great book, defectors, coming out about this. she dives into the sociocultural stuff but at the end of the day it comes down to they see him as a businessman. the image of him. it's indelible and intractable and they know what they think of him. the new information is going to be about what he is going to do in a second term, and the new information will be about her.

there are a lot of voters who want to know more about kamala harris and her see her campaign is doing that. they are on the trail and talking about her economic agenda. she just did that radio interview. they're going to have to go out there and play hard for those votes. which you advocated for since your time at the rnc. if you show up for voters, they show up for your. >> we put together coalitions around the country and that 2010 cycle, and the irony today is that, then, because obamacare, the affordable care act was a major portion of the conversation, there was a conversation about the individual's right to choose and make choices for their health care. here we are today, party is sitting here and saying you don't have the choice, ladies, when it comes to your own body and health care. that, for me, is one of those areas where coalitions which we are seeing form in places like

kansas, ohio, where republican women are not aligned with their party on this issue which is why you see the harris team making a concerted effort in their national bus tour to have the personal one-on-one conversation with this emerging coalition of voters around that issue. also, around the issues that you mentioned a little before that don't have a partisan tag attached to them. we haven't done policy in a long time until the biden era. where we got infrastructure, we got [ applause ] inflation down. and other issues. by the way, republicans signed off on that as well. they were part of the vote. >> it was a very partisan. >> it was bipartisan which says a lot about this president's ability to lead in the way he has led has been, from my

perspective, someone who mucks around in politics, was good. he was good at it. i will throw it to you but throw it to you this way. one of the aspects of this -- i know -- one of the aspects of this coalition thing i find somewhat amusing is tried -- trump has been playing the black community with cheap sneakers and menthol cigarettes. this is the appeal, direct appeal to black men. what i keep trying to tell republicans now as i told them in 2010, 2009, is, that brother will be fine until he gets home. all of a sudden, he's not going to be looking at donald trump going, i am with him. my point is, that's not how you build a coalition. the fact that you think so little of our community and the

black and brown community to think that is how we are going to vote and why we will vote for you. >> the outreach, if we can even call it outreach, the outreach the trump campaign has done for communities of color and women, the outreach has done to his base. is outreach definitely demonstrates he thinks very little of all of us individuals because voters, in my opinion, not only want but they deserve a high-level conversation on the issues that are confronting them. in the polling and when you see these polls and they say, people feel like the economy is going in the wrong direction, when you break it down and look at the focus groups and you have these conversations, what people are saying, affordability. they are talking housing, the ability to not have to work so

many jobs are extra long hours to be able to enjoy the things they want with her family. they're talking about childcare because it's too expensive. the rent is too high. they want policies to do something about that. you would not know that's what voters want in these demographics unless you talk to them. doing actual outreach. my notes i brought with me, i don't like the polls. i don't like polls or national polls, and a m not here for polls of registered voters because registered voters are not likely voters. i don't like polls of likely voters because of voter registration boom that is happened since the switch has been astronomical. there's data from 38 states uploaded and let me give you some of the numbers. young people are searching during the week. about a month ago. a month ago in 2020, voters

under 30 were 20% of new registrants. during the same week in 2024, that increase to 57%. that is crazy. hispanic women numbers are going off the charts for women under the age of 30. they were quadrupled in louisiana and maryland, iowa, vermont, north carolina, nebraska. these are numbers that will make a difference. if people get registered to vote in the short amount of time, that means there ready to participate. >> thank you all so much. >> it was a lot of fun. good to see you. >> we need big chairs for the show. i loved it. i loved it.

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it's important we are here now entering the work for our democracy and our future. >> nobody can afford not to be engage right you. >> that is the wrap on msnbc live democracy 2024. to those tuning in, we will see you at the next one. ext one. hello, i'm craig melvin, and this is "dateline.": ma. ok. we are-- robin owens: oh, god. oh, god. operator: ma'am. i just knew that she was gone.