do not forget, tuesday join rachel maddow in the day for special coverage and analysis when the d -- vp debate on msnbc and your three favorite people in the entire world will be here to take over the post to be covered starting at midnight. for now, our friend, ali velshi continues our coverage. >> thank you for that. i guess i would've figured, alicia, you would handle it but i look forward to tonight and that amazing special. i've seen bits of it. one of the members of my staff was involved in a with you so we've been hearing a lot of it. simone, thank you for it. >> thank you, we are excited. jarrard is the one from your team. literally, a1, he is great. he was doing edits until 4:00 a.m. yesterday. we appreciate him. >> we feel part of it and we

are looking forward to it. sleep up if you can because you've got a lot of things this week. have a great weekend velshi starts right now. good morning. it's sunday, september 29. 37 days until election day and two days tim walz and j.d. vance will take the stage in new york city for the first and likely only vice presidential debate of the cycle. the matchup will be the first time that the two man will meet each other in person, and it will offer them a chance to reintroduce themselves to the country. since joining their respective campaigns, their paths have diverged. walz profile has skyrocketed and voters have found him to be likable which is a boost for his a kamala harris campaign. on the other hand, vance controversial comments have been a liability for trump's presidential bid and poll shows favorability ratings are well underwater.

the stakes are high, especially with early voting underway in many states. this may be the least, last marquee event of the cycle because although kamala harris is excepted a proposed to be for october 23, there has been no indication that trump will change his mind about doing another debate. the republican nominee is more keen to hold friendly rallies where he could make outrageous claims without any pushback. both the tone and content of his campaign speeches have continued to be baffling and outrageous. at a rally yesterday, he repeated many of his fear mongering claims about immigration, and he praised hungry's prime minister orban is one of the toughest and smartest people. they did it in his debate with harris as well which was even weird there. on the economic front, he has been fixated on one particular thing. tariffs. >> the word tariff properly used is a beautiful word.

one of the most beautiful words i've ever heard. it is music to my ears. a lot of bad people didn't like the word for another finding out i was right, and we will taken hundreds of billions of dollars into the treasury and use that money to benefit the american citizens, and it will not cause inflation, by the way. you know, i took in from china, hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes and tariffs, and i had no inflation. we did not have inflation. >> this can be exhausting but as he campaigns for, tariffs have been is go to for pretty much everything. during an event at the economic club in new york it you weeks ago, he gave an incoherent and meandering answer to a straightforward question about childcare, suggesting that tariffs could fun the childcare needs. at one of his rallies, he suggested the threat of tariffs could stop wars and lead to world peace. >> you go to war with another

country that is friendly to us are not friendly to us, you are not going to do business in the united states if we charge you 100% tariffs and all of a sudden, the president or prime minister or dictator or whoever is running the country says, sir, we won't go to war. >> that is some really super stupid reasoning. trump said, quote, tariffs are the greatest thing ever invented and it appears he makes them a centerpiece of his economic policy. he's either wildly is informed about tariffs or he's been misleading about what they are and what they do. let's start with the basics so people understand what tariffs are and how they work. tariff is a tax and is done imported goods and technically paid for by importers of the item being tax. retailer, wholesaler, or manufacturer. in practice, companies pass on those extra costs to consumers

which result in higher prices. in theory, tariffs are used to encourage domestic production by placing a barrier on imports of less-expensive products that are made are grown in other countries. jump in tariff plan is what harris is referring to when she talks about a trump sales tax because one of the things the republican nominee has proposed is imposing a 10% to 20% tariff on all imported goods no matter what it is or where comes from. even from canada. he wants a higher baseline of 60% on all goods imported from china. the country from which american imports more goods than almost any other. at least until last year when mexico surpassed china as america's top source of imports. speaking to mexico, trump loaded the idea of what a person tariffs on all automobiles manufactured in mexico except under nafta, large parts of what we think of as domestically produced vehicles are manufactured or assembled in canada and mexico.

not that he cares. that would be a breach of america's long-standing and successful trade agreement with canada and mexico. last week, trump threatened the american company john deere with a 200% tariff on equipment it manufactures outside the u.s. intended to be sold domestically. his tariff threat against john deere came after the company announced it would move some manufacturing to mexico. like most things with trump, sometimes it's hard to know if he is serious about what he's talking about or talking for the sake of talking. is illustrative of how he thinks tariffs can be used as a punitive measure against companies or countries. to be clear, tariffs can be a useful tool when used strategically. blanket indiscriminate tariffs are almost never a good idea because the cost consumers money and because the targeted countries to retaliate. many economists including nobel laureates of criticized his broad proposal to impose a tariff on all imported goods.

they were not only would it lead to higher prices and a global trade war, but also to a loss of jobs in america. even the republican senate majority leader mitch mcconnell said recently he is, quote, not a fan of tariffs which is a traditional republican position. trump's across-the-board tariff proposal would be unprecedented and despite the many warnings from experts and lawmakers, he seems to become more serious about it by the day. joining mary jennifer rubin, opinion writer for the washington post and msnbc political analyst and the offer of resistance. how women save democracy from trump. a contributing editor for the atlantic and the author of many books including one nation after trump, got for the pilot perplex, desperate and not yet deported of which i am one. good to see you both. thank you for being with us. i want to escape the same washing. i want to explain that tariffs

can be a strategically used an important tool, but like much of what trump says, he doesn't think about it strategically in like what he did as president when he opposed son steel, he didn't think of it strategically then he there. he bungled it and almost created a trade war. >> we use tariffs for lots of reason. we use it against russia because of their invasion of ukraine. we use it as a punishment for humans rights violations. we use it when a country, for example, is violating trade laws itself, dumping or stealing our intellectual property. used across the board, it's a surefire recipe for recession. it's funny that he talks about mckinley and tariffs. we suffered a horrendous recession in 1893, 1897, and, again, in the late 1920s, early 30s when we imposed these

across-the-board tariffs. what he has not explained is why in the world an importer, say a car company is some kind of manufacturer, wouldn't pass it on to the consumer? yes, the federal government would ostensibly be getting money but at the expense of ordinary consumers. the lower end of our economic activity, middle and lower income people, would pay disproportionately because they spend more their income on consumer goods. things they need just to get by. it's not only a tax and not only dumb in terms of our global and economic leadership in the world, but it's terribly regressive. the people he is talking to, the steel mill workers who are out of work, the people in the rustbelt will pay for this. it's a fools errand to think that tariffs are going to be

the magic recipe for everything. >> norm, in a normal world there have always been legitimate discussions about the use of tariffs. almost every country imposes some for various reasons. part of the problem with trump's argument is he is saying clearly, the way he said about the wall, how mexico would pay for the wall. mexico did not pay anything. china will pay the tariffs. the other countries will pay the tariffs. it's a fundamental misunderstanding. you can like them or not like them, but you will pay if tariffs are imposed and not the governments of other countries. >> your discussion of tariffs would've gotten an a wharton school. the wharton school has soiled herself by giving a degree to this charlatan who clearly does not understand the first thing about economics. there are legitimate discussions for us to have about the regimen of trade in the 21st century. the old structure of trade

clearly does not work quite the way it did. we have to find something different and new. there are strategic reasons at times for having tariffs. the idea that this will embrace our debt, that the only ones who will be are these other countries, evil or not evil, the idea that we will deter wars through the use of tariffs is just bizarre and that nobody even will tell donald trump how awful he is including people from wharton, is perplexing. >> i was surprised at the economic of new york because it was full of economist, journalist, and business people. there needed to be cheering there but people were confused and silent. jen, part of the issue of tariffs is we have all probably been overly promotional

about free trade. we love these deals and think they are good. donald trump is correct but he seems to imply that when you trade with countries, you are less likely to go to war with them. the bottom line is that it's a discussion that needs to be had. i don't know the trade is the enemy but the way we distribute the sort -- spoils of trade. if you buy a lot of manufactured goods in china, it may cost manufacturing jobs in america, so you need to make sure people put out of those jobs are retrained or whatever they need to live fruitful lives. it's a complicated and important policy discussion. trump is not having that. >> no. i'll give an example. we used to have nafta, and nick came under a lot of criticism for the reasons you are saying. people feared jobs would go to mexico and so one. we negotiated the u.s. mca

which was the replacement. that didn't have 100% tariff sort 10% tariffs are 60% tariffs. that maintained a basin structure code so we could have goods going across the border. who renegotiated that? donald trump. this notion that if only he were in power, he would do these wonderful things. and doubt tariffs like it's halloween candy is nonsense. he would have no ability to do so unless, and i don't put it past him, he wants to sing the american economy. he would do that if he thought it would benefit him in some way. the other part that we haven't touched on is it's a recipe for a worldwide recession. what is the eu going to do if we slap an enormous tariffs? what is canada going to do? these people are trading partners, and we have to sell them stop. we are fraction on the world my in population and 25% of the

production comes from the united states. where will we sell our things ever in a worldwide tariff war? none of this makes sense. it assumes his listeners are completely arrogant and completely stupid. that they think because trump has come up with something, it must be right. it will be interesting to see j.d. vance who fancies himself, he's a yale graduate, to see if he defends this kind of nonsense. talk about the list of schools they should be revoking diplomas, yale should be at the top of the list. it is part of this mean- spirited, fear of foreigners, everything from abroad is going to pollute and make us poor. it's rot. our wealth and security and success is in global leadership. it's in leading the global economy. we cannot survive trading amongst ourselves. >> it's a weird isolationist

thing. jen brings up another important part if you're having this conversation about. tariffs. if you impose tariffs across the board in all sorts of countries, they will retaliate and oppose tariffs on the things you sell them. we want to enhance our manufacturing production economy in the united states which we do, that means not just selling to americans but selling to canadians and australians and china and indians and everywhere else. you charge tariffs and they will do the same to you and your back into this isolationist economy. >> one of the most robust areas for our exports is agriculture. the people who would suffer perhaps the most if we get into a trade war at the farmers and those in the rural areas along with working-class people, trump's base would be the ones who would suffer the most. the other part of his base, the billionaires where he said, you

gave money and i'll give you even more tax breaks, wouldn't mind this stuff and will say nothing about it. i will say that we have had some discussions about trade in the past. other countries, many of them, have child labor or slave labor. using the trade mechanism is away to create more fairness with labor is an important way to go about this. that has nothing to do with the idea that if you oppose large tears, the countries will pay. our deficits and debt will go away and we can use it to stop wars. before we go, getting back to j.d. vance, one of the things we need to focus on with the debate as the moderators. we have seen two different kinds of moderation with the presidential debates so far. will margaret brennan and norah o'donnell do what david muir did and hold these candidates accountable for lies? j.d. vance was caught in another lie

by greg sargent just yesterday where he said in 2007, trump is trying to blow up, 2017, blow up the affordable care act. now he said trump saved the affordable care act. are you going to hold them accountable for the lies or put the burden on tim walz? that is not where it ought to go, and i hope we will see these moderators step up. if they just leave it to the candidates, we are not going to have an edifying debate as we need. >> that's a good a valid point and become what the audience watches for when they wanted to be. not just the performance of the candidates but the performance of the moderators. thank you very much. jennifer rubin and she's the author of resistance, women say democracy from donald trump. norm ornstein a senior fellow emeritus at the american enterprise institute and contributing editor with the atlantic and author of multiple

books including one nation after trump, the guide for the perplexed, desperate, and the not yet ported. we will talk about the swing state of michigan with the former governor. the gop says they are pro-life but project 2025 and trump's agenda 47 call for a radical expansion of the death penalty. we will check in with matt bradley in beirut for the latest from a region on edge following the killing of the leader of hezbollah. hezbollah. subject: i remembeg st. jude commercials on tv and wondering, is that place legit? those commercials are nice, but is that a real thing? and having lived it, i can say for sure that money is being put to incredible use. i've never once had to wait for insurance to approve a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. i told myself

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security source told reuters that the body of the leader hassan nasrallah is been recovered. he was killed friday night by an israeli airstrike on an apartment complex which israel said hezbollah had been using is a subterranean command center. iran which backs hezbollah has vowed there will be retaliation. in remarks, i the ayatollah remarked it would be hezbollah and other parties in iran's so- called axis of resistance that would respond to israel and not iran directly. joining me from beirut's national correspondent matt bradley. good afternoon to you in beirut. we talked all morning yesterday about how the region would react to the killing of hassan nasrallah and how certain factions would respond. we are seeing it unfold. tell us what we know today. >> reporter: that's right. we are still picking up the pieces, literally and figuratively, as you mentioned. the body of hassan nasrallah is been recovered.

it was mostly unscathed which is surprising when you look at the amount of destruction that was left in the wake of the huge bombing. it's over my right shoulder. the israelis continuing to pound hezbollah targets not just here but in the the cop valley. authorities were saying 17 people had been killed. this is a continuing situation. when we're talking about at the politics are going to be reacting, politicians, i spoke with two people. one, a former prime minister and he was the prime minister during a lot of the fighting in 2006, and he was dealing with the recovery from that and building the nation afterwards. these are people who are looking at the death of the hezbollah leader, hassan nasrallah, with mixed emotions. they have what looks like they're trying to rebuild this country in a new mold.

hezbollah has had an iron grip over the politics even though they're not the ones governing the country. they position themselves as political kingmakers. the dust has not yet settled on all of lebanon and there's a lot of political maneuvering going on. people said they will meet with the prime minister, some of these politicians, trying to figure out what to do next. the one thing i heard over and over his they need to know what shape hezbollah will begin and whether it will be the dynamic, controlling party it has been for generations basically in the mold it was built by hassan nasrallah and who will be his successor. all of that will determine what happens next? >> thank you for your excellent reporting. matt bradley in beirut. michigan head first and expense with trump selection denial is a man now is laying the groundwork for the big lie 2.0. i will be joined by the former

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i thought i knew a lot about our irish roots; i was surprised to learn so many more things. there's the family name. 1892 wow. that one here is the boat they came over on. yes. wow.

joining me is jennifer granholm, the u.s. secretary of energy but she's joining us in her capacity, not as a member the cabinet or expert and entry but because of her political history as the first woman elected governor of michigan. she served two terms from 2003 to 2011. secretary, good to see you. >> thank you. great to be on. >> you have been in our seed is a commentator and a journalist and you've been the governor of this remarkably important state which is central to the way we are going to see the selection

decided. talk about michigan and what is at stake? it's a state the republican party has taken stands that were unpopular with voters and we saw every successful election last time. it's central to who was going to win the presidency. >> yeah, this state is on the razors edge in terms of which way it flips. the harris campaign views itself in this state and other swing states as an underdog. there's a poll out this weekend, another two points within the margin of error. the bottom line for michigan and i can tell you this is a former governor is how we will make sure people feel the economy is working for them. when she gave the speech earlier this week about the new way forward and put out a comprehensive economic plan, and the plan talks about the future of manufacturing in america, that speaks to places

like michigan. she can also build on the success that the laws she voted in are having in michigan, 50 factories opened in michigan since the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure along the reduction act. the future of the economy on a macro level and on a micro level, what's it doing for people? that's what she talked about this week and that will make a difference. >> the last election i spent time there talking to people and the economy is the major deal. in michigan, so was the issue of reproductive rights. it was central to the last election as well. that's a motivator in this election. >> certainly it is large. having the pallet proposal and solved it for michigan, but i can tell you regardless of whether your particular

reproductive rights are on the ballot for the rest of the country, it's a motivating issue for young voters, women, and totally for men too who are allies and want to make sure the government is not telling women what to do with their bodies. it's a motivator for sure. >> i was having a chat earlier in the show when i will with katherine tai later on about trade. donald trump has leaned into this, for michiganders, it's a massive deal. so much of the trade in this country goes through that state and related to the manufacturing of vehicles and related matters. donald trump is talking about an across-the-board tariff, i have one on china particular but across-the-board tariff. that can be made attractive to some workers because it can translate to, we will charge more for goods coming from other countries so that should make, create my manufacturing jobs in america. it's more complicated than that.

>> yeah, it certainly is. trade and katherine tai is a phenomenal u.s. trade representative because she gets that. you can use trade to create wealth and opportunity for the middle class, but you must use it like a scalpel and not with an ax. the former president, that trade policy is going to increase, and these are economists saying it will increase taxes on everyday citizens about $4000 a year. that's unacceptable, but you can use trade in a targeted way which is what biden/harris has done. making sure we have an advantage for our home team. if you increase the tariff on chinese made vehicles, for example, that gives you is made vehicles a leg up. in these strategic areas where we want to compete globally, that may be a place for tariffs, but across-the-board tariff is across the board tax

increase. donald trump is quite unserious about this. the recognition that this has impacts on real people who he wants to get to vote for him, does not seem to be registering. >> the fact is, this is what we were talking about earlier, today's discussion we should be having. there shouldn't be blanket tariff someone shouldn't have zero tears. there are reasons to have them and they are strategic but the way trump is presenting it is in unserious discussion about a serious matter that you in michigan, the average michigander, knows more about because your success and prosperity depends on trade policy. >> totally. you recognize there is tools that will benefit u.s. industries. part of that is strategic use of tariffs. part of it is making it irresistible for manufacturers

to locate and america, to not allow the economic competitors to best us and that's what the inflation reduction act has done. it's ironic the trump proposal is to undo there. we have doubled, doubled the amount of manufacturing investment in the united states as a result of the biden/harris administration and the vote she cast. she will not undo there. a lot of the manufacturing went to michigan and georgia, tennessee, red states. why would you undo a policy that is creating jobs across the country? manufacturing jobs which is a backbone of the economy and this bennett jobs created with my manufacturing job. the comprehensive strategy of how you grow and economy is what she is proposing and he is coming at it with a sledgehammer that will end up hurting real people. >> jennifer granholm, you've been in the tv business

because there was a tease for later on with katherine tai. we appreciate when you do the heavy lift for those of us on tv. thank you for being with us. >> all intentional of course. >> the former governor of michigan appearing in her personal capacity. the u.s. trade representative katherine tai and i will talk about china's production of electric vehicles and what the u.s. government is doing to protect u.s. manufacturing. cting. one thing we know is true: no matter race, gender, ethnicity... the need to screen when due... for colon cancer's a priority. indeed! everyone 45+ at average risk should screen for colon cancer. these folks are getting it done at home with me, cologuard. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. i did it my way. here's to getting better with age.

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the storm is stalling over the tennessee valley so it's dumping more water on an area that can't handle more water. words we are getting's video swift water rescues in tennessee this weekend. game wardens with wildlife resource agencies rescued people and pets, pulling them to safety. things are so bad in north carolina, officials are calling helene there hurricane katrina. the store made nearly 400 roads impassable. completely cutting off asheville. the largest mountain city which is home to 95,000 people. floodwaters overtook street signs and swapping buildings and businesses and homes. the catastrophe in the big bend region which is where the hurricane made landfall is far from over. look at these pictures. the storm may have passed with these images of its strength will last. this is horseshoe beach which was decimated when the storm made landfall. the barrier islands are cut off from the mainland the people are running out of clean water. the owner lost her business,

storm surge scattered pieces of her cottages around the property. she did not lose everything. she found her cat in the debris. we will follow what is a rescue and recovery effort and bring the latest. a week in which the news highlighted the controversial nature the death penalty in america, system plate by years and evidence of systemic racial bias, we will go inside project 25's plans to extend the death penalty. my recommendation is simple: every home should have salonpas. powerful yet non-addictive. targeted and long-lasting. i recommend salonpas. it's good medicine. ♪ hisamitsu ♪

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five executions were carried out across five different states igniting the debate over capitol punishment in america. the first time in over 20 years this many executions have taken place in a single week. the use of the death penalty has long been controversial because it's been plagued by heirs and accusations of racial bias. this week, the cases are no exception. of the five, two raised significant doubts about the individual's guilt in two others highlight how the death penalty disproportionately targets low income and vulnerable populations. three of the five executed were black fueling concerns of the role of racism in the administration of executions. despite the death penalty's troubled history, trump is called free radical expansion

of its use. the proposals are alarming given his frequent threats to go after his enemies and political opponents if he returns to power. abraham, the executive director the group death penalty action warns that trump's plans should be, quote, deeply concerning to everyone. trump has said he wants to execute u.s. military leaders and other u.s. government officials who opposed his of the risen treasonous agendas. someone needs to remind them is running for president of the united states. not north korea. both agenda 47 which is from in official campaign platform and this, project 2025, the conservative blueprint we are covering on this show identify capitol punishment is a key objective. trump's agenda 47 posted to his campaign website calls for the death penalty to be expanded against drug dealers and human traffickers, arguing joe biden and the democrats turned american cities into, quote, cesspools of bloodshed and

crimeend quote. reports including a recently released fbi report shows that violent crime is down nationwide. critics warned that his fear mongering diverts attention from issues with capitol punishment, namely, that it's discriminatory and its application is broken. similarly, project 2025 is for the next administration to execute every person who is currently sitting on federal death row. in chapter 17, page 554, project 2025 states the country should do anything possible to obtain finality for the 44 prisoners currently on federal death row. this chapter was written by a man named gene hamilton, former trump official who proposed expanding capitol punishment for crimes that do not involve murder. something which the supreme court rejected more than a decade ago when a case called kennedy v louisiana citing the evolving standards of decency

that mark the progress of a maturing society. project 2025 sweeping calls for mass execution are troubling given the serious flaws with the application of american in death penalty. since 1973, at least 200 people have been exonerated from death row, according to the death penalty information center. that means for every eight people executed, one individual on death row has been exonerated. even before agenda 47 and project 2025, trump is called for expanding the use of the death penalty. some states turned to buck farmer readily than the federal government. since the death penalty was reinstituted in 1976, 1600 people have been put to death across 35 states with nearly one third of those occurring in texas. federal executions are far more rare.

there have been only 16 federal executions since 1976 but before trump, there it only been three. during his time in office, his administration but to death 13 people over six months. the largest number of federal executions in more than a century. regardless of your stance on capitol punishment, this five executions this week underscore the problems with the death penalty is carried out in practice. take the case of this 55-year- old williams, the first of the five. executed tuesday night. is killing has sparked widespread outrage in the victim's family and state prosecutors. state prosecutors tried to have his conviction overturned. the supreme court ignored their pleas with all three liberal justices dissenting. many are calling this execution legally sanctioned murder. the chief prosecutor in st. louis issued a statement after the killing saying if there's even a shadow of doubt of the innocence -- evanescence, the

death penalty should never be an option. the naacp went even further declared, quote, tonight, missouri lynched another innocent black man. as it stands the u.s. remains the only fully developed nation in the world that still uses the death penalty. we are in the same company as china, egypt, iran, iraq and saudi arabia. in 2008, the supreme court underscored the oppressive and brutal nature of capitol punishment warning, when the will law punishes by death, it risks its own sudden dissented to brutality, transgressing the constitutional commitment to decency ends restraint. don't act on this supreme court . in that scathing critique of the supreme court's refusal to stop the execution of williams, the slate agree that, quote, the far right blocked tripped over itself to reflect deep

concern for the former president's writes, fashioning new law out of thin air to give him every last benefit of the doubt. every conceivable tool to defeat his criminal charges. there is a vastly greater, more incontrovertible evidence of trauma in guilt in the january 6 case then there was an williams guilt in a murder. it certain beyond a shadow of the debt that the six justices of the super majority have constructed two classes of americans who receive two classes of judicial relief. one that looks like them and shares our values and another that garnishes no empathy, concern, or even curiosity. recipes that are more than their ingredients. ♪ [smoke alarm] recipes written by hand and lost to time... can now be analyzed and restored using the power of dell ai.

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as you know i talk about project 2025 to every show to the extent i was doing it before it was cool. this is mine and the back is broken up because i deal with it so much. i was telling you about project 2025, agenda 47 a trump's plan to expand the use of the death penalty. i am joined by paul, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst and a law professor at georgetown. the author of the important book choke hold, policing black men. it's great to see you. it's a complicated issue because the death penalty is

legal in america and some supported and some do not. it's not exactly along party lines. what we are discussing is the replication. we assume, it's legal, whether it should be legal is a different question. we are worried about the application with innocent people who are being put to death of people who cannot get the cases resolved and might be exonerated but exonerated after 20, 25, 30 years. >> rich people are never sentenced to death. people who get the death penalty are poor or have horrible lawyers during their trial and a number of people are venison including williams, innocent man was executed this week. the victims families said they needed justice which means a real killer, the real murderer is out there. one of the problems with expanding the death penalty in the way project 2025 and trump 12 is it's not good for public safety. they want to expand the death penalty. it's unconstitutional

in a supreme court case, we talked about this, louisiana versus kennedy, the court said it's unconstitutional to punish people with death unless they took that violates the supreme court's violates the eighth amendment. the court had practical concerns about public safety. we know when people understand that death is a possibility for their abuser, they do not come forward. the most important thing for children victims of abuse is to tell somebody. a member of the family could be executed, that makes them less likely to come forward. we talked about wrongful convictions. with children, it's easy to manipulate their testimony. the court in this case, you cannot get the death penalty for rape. the child was concerned about this risk of wrongful executed.

>> what about the line is drawn between the death penalty and public safety. let's take the philippines. a guy won the race, if drug dealers get the death penalty, we can execute them and they started killing people without a trial. we are getting past the idea of the cases need to be adjudicated on the merits in a decision needs to be made on the basis of that and that's why have judges have some leeway. we are getting caught up in a wave of anti-whatever it is and deciding the most extreme solutions are the best. >> that is right. the way the death penalty works, it's not the bad guys get it. he was punished during the jim crow era and the only people sentence to death for rape were black men falsely accused of white women. nobody who sexually assaulted a black woman got the death

penalty. it has always been political. trump taught us that during the time the central park exonerated five being prosecuted. they were innocent and he's been $85,000 of his own money to take out an ad calling for the death penalty to be brought back in new york state. >> this is a go to for him. thank you. we will have this discussion further about the validity of the death penalty. paul butler, former prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst another that the book choke hold, policing black men. ck men.