walz really pressed j.d. vance whether he would serve the election results so certainly a moment i think we will see the campaign clipping and sharing on social media. >> democrats reaching out to me wishing governor walz had done more interviews and maybe he would be sharper and he seemed nervous but he did close a strong january 6th moment. thank you as always. thank you for you getting up "way too early" for us on this wednesday more. "morning joe" starts right now. >> walz and vance stuck to the issues and showed each other a lot of respect. it was very boring. i'll be honest. i like these better with trump. i really do. i don't know that anyone's vote was changed tonight. watching vice presidential debate is like taking your kids' picking and halfway through sounded like this was going to be fun but what is the point?

>> these two men were both a heartbeat away from being interesting this evening. it was a vice presidential debate. one of these men will lose and we will never from him again. the other one will become vp again and we will never hear from him again. >> 41-44. >> all right. a look at the late night takes of vice presidential nominees tim walz and j.d. vance. the ohio senator largely kept things cordial in last night's debate focusing most of their attacks at their running mates at the top of the ticket. we are going to go through the big moments from what could be the final face-off between the campaigns before election day. we will bring you a live report from the middle east following a major escalation by iran launching a massive ballistic missile attack on israeli. we will have the very latest developments just ahead. two major stories this morning. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 2nd.

along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. msnbc political analyst elise jordan who is an aide to the white house department. the house to on brand with donnie deutsche who is with us. as well as professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. and the author of the book charlie sykes. we want to start with you. as i was nervously preparing to watch the debate, you kept reminding me vice presidential debates don't matter that much. after watching that night, do you still feel that way? >> i do, i do. vice presidential debates don't matter. if they did, michael dukakis would have been elected in 1988. several interesting things

occurred, even though vice presidential debates don't matter. polls show that midwestern nice actually worked, despite walz's shaky start, despite his stumbles on the china answer, which i have no idea why he didn't have an answer ready for that other than saying i'm a knucklehead. i'll remember that. just, generally, you had with j.d. vance, you had the elitist. the guy who went to an ivy league school and smoothly knew to answer the questions smoothly and knew how to work the format. i think most people would say he did much better last night stylistically. you never know how things will come across.

when i saw the cnn poll that came out last night, it showed that midwestern nice really worked for walz. tim walz's favorability jumped up 15% and 59% favorability rating after the debate and 22% favoribility before the debate. i don't care where are you, you have to look at the numbers. that is normal for american politics. for those watching saying he looked too nervous but something viewers liked that undecided voters and registered voters liked about tim walz. maybe something we will sort through the next few weeks even though it won't have much impact on the election. j.d. vans is upside down. 41% favorable and 44% unfavorable but he showed a side

he has not shown before and that is he tried to be more likeable. he tried to be more agreeable. the people who knew him before he decided to be a trumper said he was a nice guy. almost you got a sense that this election may end and he doesn't want to completely tie himself to donald trump. he is 40 years old. he has a future. while trump likes going to war nonstop against everybody, you got to say for j.d. vance decided, you know what? i'm going to try to salvage my political career even if donald trump goes up in flames. and so that would have all been fine and dandy. no doubt this morning, there will be consternation in mar-a-lago that everybody is saying j.d. vance should talk to the rest of the campaign and donald trump should shut up

because j.d. vance is better at this than donald trump. not even a close call. >> lying? >> he is smoother. if you want to say a smooth liar, you can. but donald trump, he is getting old. they are not even letting him do "60 minutes" because they know he is not capable of doing it. because he can't answer policy questions. but, still, j.d. vance, willie, j.d. vance was stylistically better. he told a lot of lies about aca and other issues but i will say this, j.d. vance was very clarifying at the end of this debate. he told viewers everywhere that was watching if you hate american democracy when things don't go your way, vote for me. if you hate everything that james madison put together and

alexander hamilton put together in the constitution, if you hate the tradition of peaceful transition, that really, really define an ensure american democracy, you hate that if donald trump doesn't win every election, vote for me. it was one of the most clarifying moments in any presidential or vice presidential debate we could ever see, because he clearly said, he was going to continue the lies of donald trump and not even answer debates at question. did joe biden win the 2020 election? yes, that will work very well for a lot of hard right people on the internet and maybe on x and other social media platforms but he defined himself. he defined his campaign. and he defined the choice in this election. i am not a democrat. i doubt i will ever be a

democrat. i'm an independent. and i'm one of those people that is looking at both of these guys and, you know, people ask me why don't you support the republicans? j.d. did my work for me last night because one side is anti-democratic. the other side is pro-democracy, pro-constitutional republic and pro-james madison checks and balances. pro-peaceful transfer of power. >> what about women's rights? >> you can debate that. >> yes, i did. >> that has been part of the debate since 1973. but it's not been part of the debate. it's whether we continue with a constitutional of public where there are peaceful transition of power and, last night, j.d. vance refused to answer whether he supported the peaceful transfer of power, willie. as robert frost would say, if

you're the robert frost or horacek and that made all of the difference. >> after a strong debate performance that, i agree with you, that you're hearing where it had republicans saying either j.d. vance is the future of the republican party or i wish he were at the top of the ticket because he is so much better at this than donald trump, at the end he was asked a simple question from tim walz who turned to him and said, did donald trump lose the 2020 election? he did not answer that question. by the way, leading up to that, he said again and again, we had a peaceful transfer of power. okay. maybe in that one hour on that one day in january 20th, it was peaceful. as, by the way, the capitol was ringed with security fence because of what happened on january 6th and trying to rewrite history. here was the change at the end that joe was talking about. >> would you, again, take the

challenge this year's election results even if every governor certified the results, i'll give you two minutes. >> first of all i think we are focused on the future. we need to figure out how to solve the inflation policies and make housing and groceries affordable and what we are focused on. i want to answer your question because you asked it. president trump said problems in 2020 and my own belief we should fight about those issues and debate those issues peacefully in the public square and all i've said and all that donald trump has said. it's really rich for democratic leaders to say donald trump is a unique threat to the democracy when he peacefully gave over power on january 20th as we have done for 250 years in this country. >> this was a threat to our democracy in a way we had not seen and it manifested itself because of donald trump's unability to say. he is still saying he didn't lose the election. i ask you, did he lose the 2020

election? >> i'm focused on the future. did kamala harris censor americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 covid situation? that is a damn be nonanswer. i'm concerned where is the fire wall with donald trump? where is the fire wall? if he knows, he could do anything, including taking an election and his vice president will not stand to it and what we are asking you, america. will you stand up? will you keep your oath of office even if the president doesn't? and i think kamala harris would agree she wouldn't have picked me if she didn't think i would do that because, of course, that is what we would do. america, i think you've got a really clear choice on this election of who is going to honor that democracy and who is going to honor donald trump. >> donnie, plain and simple. governor walz turned to j.d. vance. did he lose the election as the

court decided and everyone around has said since. he couldn't answer the question. for as smooth as j.d. vance was for his fluent as he sounded on policy, we will get into some of the contradictions that donald trump tried to save it when the exact opposite happened. misrepresenting his own record. j.d. vance on the issue of abortion and a lot to comb through but he was good last night. that moment crystallizes the whole moment. >> he was good. he was too slick, maybe, but he serm was not the kind of despicable character that we kind have seen clips of. i thought it was a draw up until that point and i think that was disqualifying in the election if you can't say that. i think that is the issue that whenever i get into debates with anybody i go, democracy? on the docket. i want to go back to kimmel's

joke at the beginning that it was boring. i was thinking the whole time, this is going to be a referendum what people want going forward. i think the theme it was congenial and not a good sport and not ufc but more like boxing. is the american public -- intuition is the american public is ready for that and want that but i said to myself, is there a sick twisted thing that people are addicted to the sick entertainment value of donald trump and that they were kind of disappointed? i was enjoying it but i don't know, that is no fun. are we going to go back to that? my better angels say, no, people are ready for that. what joe said this morning in mar-a-lago, what is going on people are going up as they are getting their danish and bundt cake at mar-a-lago saying vance was great last night, wasn't he great? that is going to bother him and really bother him that he was better than donald trump that he could litigate the case better than donald trump. donald trump, he will be very

dismissive of j.d. vance in the coming weeks but donald trump is not happy with himself because j.d. vance showed himself to be a better candidate. >> trump did praise him on social media last night. you did get the sense watching j.d. vance last night, jonathan lemire, he was aware of his likability of being in the dumps of donald trump and being a figure that people want to look away from that they are sick of and to present in those 90 minutes any way a reasonable alternative. now, you could only think that if you only watched last night and hadn't seen everything else he does on the campaign trail day-to-day in support of donald trump. >> vance put forward his best version of himself last night and the two were so civil that vance almost normalized walz. tim walz is on the ticket because he is talked about republicans are weird and he never used that last night. to donnie's point, he praised

vance's appearance he talked about pete rose being in the hall of fame? his own intention was sort of lost. i was struck that governor walz, he sort of took a pass on what could have been some devastating attacks and didn't mention the weird issue and never brought up the childless -- didn't come. you didn't talk about ukraine and vance maid clear he has no interest in supporting kyiv and probably brought up project 2025 once. that final minute in january 6th about january 6th was walz's best moment and the harris campaign has already -- >> it was the best moment but the end of the debate so a little late. i was disappointed. i felt like the reasons that kamala harris chose governor walz didn't really come out last night. the governor walz who was joking and who was free flowing in

interviews, who was kind of, you know, that guy in your hometown who is a local leader and he is a lot of fun but he can be serious? i just saw someone trying to be who he wasn't and it allowed j.d. vance to just skate through. it was disappointing, too, governor walz didn't have a better answer why he has said previously that he was in square when he wasn't. he said i misspoke. i'm sorry. he almost made it worse. >> i agree with you. i was surprised by that moment. i was surprised by a number of moments like that but we will take that one as the example. by the way, i don't think it matters how late the great moment was because, unfortunately, we tv people. we are not that important any more. people take nuggets online on social media. it's the truth. >> yeah. >> it's going to be all about the clips and what is put out here and there, so he can still

win the day and it's showing the reaction is not bad to tim walz. i will say, though, to that answer. what are you talking about? i misspoke. he is dehumanizing migrants and they are begging trump and vance to stop doing this to their community and he is lying about the 2020 election. i misspoke six hours ago. these guys lie for a living. that would have been my answer. >> it would have been a lot of people's answer. no doubt that despite if you look at the numbers walz won this debate. if you look at the cnn poll, polling shows vance with a slight advantage but in terms of favorability, against his favorability rating went up 59%.

unfavorable, 22%, vance 44%. as you're looking at that number, it's really interesting. you look at that number, eddie, and i go back. i go back to what elise just said. guy in your hometown is the effect he gave off. >> yeah. >> he was nervous last night. he will started out nervous. he found his footing. but it was an uneven performance, at best. i reminded what andy said about george w. bush. the things elite make the most fun of, the fact that bush talks like a regular guy, that bush is smooth, is not a smooth talker. his syntax is a little off. "the new york times" and "the washington post" what they don't understand is that is why regular guys like bush so much

and you can say the same thing about joe biden but you look at the favorable and unfavorables after the debate and you just kind of wonder if they are looking at the ivy league guy and seeing what a smooth talker he was. then the regular guy who, again, stumbled around a little bit, was nervous, but they are thinking, yeah, who wouldn't be nervous? and maybe that is why his favorablity went up so much. when you and i talk. you ivy league guy, very smooth. i'm a country lawyer. i struggle getting through senate. i struggle getting through a senate. it's kind of like when i was at gettysburg and i was there. i'm a knucklehead. you go ahead and answer the question. >> joe, i think you're right. there were moments where i was rooting for him. come on, governor, come on, come on, make it! that empathetic experience of

wanting him to do better and may help us explain it. i think you're right. he was nervous in the very beginning. he found his footing, especially on the issue of health care, abortion and january 6th. remember that line? he said that is the only reason mike pence is not standing here because of what -- i thought that was one of the more powerful lines of the night when he basically said that j.d. vance is here because he would allow donald trump to basically undermine madisonian democracy, right? i think he was coached in such a way that he did not hold vance accountable. he allowed vance to play as a reasonable guy. he allowed vance to reinvent the trump agenda. he didn't paint him, tattoo him with project 2025. in fact, vance wrote the preface to it but vance didn't have to depend it outside of the question around abortion. so i thought that minnesota niceness was i guess endearing

to some but the danger that the trump/vance ticket requires a little more progression to me, joe. >> what i was saying about the debate, so many easy layups that joe biden didn't make. we saw the same thing last night. not as disastrous for tim walz, he survived it. it seems the harris campaign has been neutral last week or so. it would have been good to turn to j.d. vance and saying you're lying. >> and weird. >> and you're making this up and bring up all of the things that had been defined j.d. vance's campaign and that didn't happen. >> no. you think what happened this week. j.d. vance won on style points but is this is not figure skating. put it in context.

i guess that was my reaction was not only the lost opportunity but the whole debate and walz's performance the normalizing and house breaking j.d. vance. but the reality is that j.d. vance is slick and smooth but he is still a bull -- artist. he was defined by that last couple of minutes where he refused to acknowledge that donald trump lost the election and that is disqualified but, to your point about the missed opportunities. in the last few days, donald trump came to my home state of wisconsin and engaged in an hour of pure your bridled hatred did immigrants and continues to lie about immigrants. yesterday, he insulted american soldiers saying they just had headaches after they were attacked by iranian missiles. who was, you know, lied about the disaster recovery efforts of

helene. all of that. yet you have to pull back the lens a little bit and think this is not a normal presidential campaign and, yet, the issue of the debate last night let's have the two guys talk about negative policy. no. this is not a normal campaign. and j.d. vance, the j.d. vance you saw last night is very, very different than the j.d. vance you see on the right wing podcast and the j.d. vance you're talking about the childless cat lady and lying about haitian immigrants. but coming back to the fact that j.d. vance was exposed in that final disqualifying nonanswer. >> he was. if i'm a politician, if i'm going up against j.d. vance, i'm thinking like a politician. what do politicians think about? politicians think about their constituents. or they should. they should think how do i help my constituents?

how do i make their lives better and how do i make their children safer and make the street safer and how do i make small businesses thrive? i would have started that debate. i would have gone back to it every single question, i would have circled back to an ohio politician lying about an ohio town to such a degree in the governor in your own party and the mayor of that ohio town had to call you out as a liar! i would have said, j.d.! you represent the people of springfield, ohio! and your lies, your lies have made the lives of your constituents less safe. your lies have damaged the lives of school children. your lies have undermined the workers of that town. your lies have caused family businesses to shut down.

your lies have made the lives of school teachers in springfield, ohio, more dangerous. you lied about cats being eaten, dogs being eaten and then you say, oh, you just -- you wanted to make up a story so you wanted to bring attention to this issue. so you basically made up a story about it and it is a lie and everybody in your own party but donald trump says it's a lie in the state of ohio. the fact he didn't start, finish, and end with that, i think was a missed opportunity. >> well, i'm trying to think of the counter here because he did bring up those things very politely and he did mention -- >> what? >> he mending the humanization of legal migrants in springfield and kindergartners escorted to school by police.

i wonder if parents of this nightmare a long time perhaps were frustrated but maybe americans just clueing in now there might have been something to this approach which may see as sane washing but perhaps tim walz is doing better than we think because he is so approachable and he politely put out there the other side, the truth at times, for -- to counter j.d. vance. i wonder if we were frustrated but the viewers out there perhaps were getting a sense of what the two positions were because there wasn't so much hype and so much screaming and so much what we would have done. i definitely would have been, like, going on him -- on j.d. vance very aggressively about his lies and disinformation, and his entire background with donald trump. i'm not sure how this is going

to be play out. i'm not sure it's going to be as negative as you are saying. >> no. i said at the beginning, it's not going to be negative at the ends of the day. it's not going to be negative because vice presidential debates don't matter but let's show the poll again. donnie, it's almost like dean smith was coaching him, the legendary north carolina basketball coach. we are going into the four corners here, boys. we are going to just pass the ball around. you're going to have a chance to, like, you know, dunk the ball and shatter the backboard. no, do a layup and go down,, you know, and set up on defense. you look again. we are being critical. we think tim walz should have executed the case far more aggressively. yet you look at those numbers. i challenge anybody that is watching, give me the past five years a politician on the national stage that has a favorability rating shies tim

walz here inspect 59 after the debate and 22% unfavorable. j.d. vance 41% and 44% and is upside down but he went up here. it seems to me if the goal is to make tim walz your midwest neighbor, a nice guy, actually, despite all of the things we are sailing this morning, i'm mission accomplished and tim walz got exactly what he needed out of this and so did kamala harris. >> tim walz was very on brand. to mika's point of decaying the media. the historical about this debate is last two minutes and back and forth about january 6th. tim walz before that was a good guy and not in a demeaning way and i think what will be remembered from this debate. back to the point i made earlier. i wonder as people are watching this, are people ready for civility or is this weird of donald trump, give me more of that? i hope it's the former.

>> joe, on your idea a moment ago about the four corners offense. i would say some democrats who are voicing that is the concern the harris and walz team is taking right now and pushing them to be more aggressive. this is maybe to last night in the v.p. debate will be that inflection point. but now a series of outside events what is happening in the middle east that we are about to get in and the aftermath of the hurricane. outside events have a way of negatively impacting the party in power. that is vice president harris and how that will play out more than likely. >> i'm hearing from democrats are asking where are they? >> yeah. >> it seems to me, you know, she came out of, you know, her launch was, i think most on both sides saying one of the most extraordinary launches in modern presidential campaign history. i mean, you looked at one event after another, 15,000 screaming

crowds all over. we saw it day after day after day. we saw other events. there is a palpable energy and then the debate. there seem to have been a silence. >> "60 minutes" she will be. >> and donald trump is not going to be on "60 minutes." i'm just saying what democrats are saying. they want to see more of kamala harris. they want to see more of tim walz and i guess higher profile offense and maybe democrats being democrats and complaining because i'm sure kamala harris and tim walz will tell you they are working 24 hours a day seven days a week. underline what you were just saying, jonathan. >> i could not agree more. i'm hearing from democrats the same exact idea. democrats are anxious. some of this is 2016 flashbacks and we know the clinton campaign took their foot off the gas at

the end. a sense that harris and walz need to be out there more. she was filling arenas the first weeks and scaling back events and rallies but not as many. tim walz got the job he was everywhere doing national tv interviews. he stopped. >> why? >> the last few weeks, understandably, the debate prep but a sense they are being too cautious. democrats are telling me they are acting like they are way ahead when they are not. in fact, the race is tied, at most, the harris/walz ticket is up slightly and certainly in the margin of error. they need to stay aggressive and i think this is a major story line from democrats in the days head urging the harris and walz compare to pick up the pace. >> free tim walz and free kamala harris. let them speak. >> charlie sykes and eddie

glaude jr. and donnie deutsche, thank you for being on the show. a lot to get to to. a major escalation in the middle east as iran launches a missile attack against israeli and vowing retaliation from the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. we will get the latest from lebanon when "morning joe" comes right back. "morning joe" comes right back breztri gave me better breathing starting within 5 minutes. it also reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler... for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling ...problems urinating vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri.

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welcome back. now to the major developments out of the the middle east where iran launched a ballistic

missile against israeli. yesterday, iran fired about 180 missiles into israeli territory. the attack forcing millions of people to take cover in bomb shelters. with the help of u.s. forces, most of the missiles were intercepted and no deaths were reported in israeli. one civilian did die in the west bank. a small town in central israeli was also hit damaging a school building. no one was injured in that attack. iran claims it targeted three military bases, including an air base in the desert. the idf said the attack had no impact on the air force's operational capabilities. iran says the strikes were in response to the killings of two militant group leaders and an iran commander. israeli has taken responsibility for the deaths of hezbollah's hassan nasrallah but has not commented on a july attack that killed the head of hamas'

political wing in tehran. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu is vowing to retall tate saying, quote, iran made a big mistake and it will pay for it. iranian officials are warning against any retaliation says tehran will hit israeli's entire infrastructure if it takes any more action. the white house, however, is in support of, quote, severe consequences for iran. >> obviously, this is a significant escalation by iran. a significant event. and it is equally significant that we were able to step up with israeli and create a situation in which no one was killed in this attack in israeli so far as we know at this time. we are now going to look at what the appropriate next steps are to secure, first and foremost, american interests and then promote stability to the maximum extent possible as we go forward. >> let's bring in nbc news

international correspondent matt bradley live from beirut. matt, what is the latest? >> reporter: yeah, we will as you can see, we are right on the coast here. actually the past two weeks we have had a front row see to the neighborhood of dahi and a terrifying view of what retaliation of iranian in the suburbs of this. this is a hezbollah stronghold and we saw on friday a series of explosions from the 2,000 pound bunk buster bombs. according to the israeli 20 other top officials of hezbollah and we are hearing about the bombardments going on all across the country. we are back at that familiar point where it looks as though the israelis are continuing to attack hezbollah and hezbollah continuing to fire in israeli and a report from hezbollah saying they have engaged israeli troops within lebanese territories over the blue line.

this means it looks as though there is this actual, you know, a real expression of that ground invasion by the israelis and that is something that everybody is looking at. could this get worse? the israelis have said that beirut is not on the table for a ground invasion so it looks unlikely we will see israeli tanks rolling into the street of beirut as they did during the civil war. guys, this is, you know, a situation that absorbs the rest of the arab world and the middle east. lebanon a small country rarely effects so many other countries as it takes the blows going on elsewhere. last year we saw those iranian missiles going into israeli, we caught a glimpse of one from here. what we saw was celebratory gunfire into the sky and tracer fire showing the people who support hezbollah were so cheered by what they saw as iran punishing israeli, even though, as you said, that punishment

didn't really land. now the situation here is just one of waiting. it's kind of reached an impasse for lebanon and the rest of the middle east. the ball is now in israeli's court but whatever they decide to do the problem for lebanon there is likely to be an effect here. this is where hezbollah is based. iran's cat paw in the middle east that faces israeli. there is so much fear here that what they have already endured is about to get so much worse. >> nbc's matt bradley is reporting live from beirut. thank you for that reporting. let's bring in now president emeritus richard haass, the author of weekly newsletter that is available. former supreme allied commander of nato and retired admiral james who is chief national analyst for nbc news. >> admiral, you know, we are

surrounded by arm chair warriors who sit and drink their lattes in manhattan offices and write editorials on their apple laptops or maybe with their nice pens saying when it comes to nuclear retaliation by russia after vladimir putin threatens nuclear war, don't worry, be happy! it's okay. go all the way to moscow. don't worry about that. they will never use that! now here we have "the wall street journal" editorial page saying that now is the time for israeli to invade iran, start a regional war and if they don't start a regional war and fountain united states doesn't join them in a regional war in the middle east, it means somehow that joe biden is weak. a summation that only "the wall

street journal" editorial page could come up with. that if netanyahu does not start a regional war, it's because joe biden is weak. you know, you've known war, actually. what are the consequences of a regional war between iran and israeli? >> very enormous. let's start with the economics. if i'm in tehran and the israelis, quote, go big, unquote, one thing i'm going to consider is closing the strait of hormuz. 30% plus of the world's oil goes through there. secondly, hezbollah, although battered, still has an inventory of over 100 thousand surface-to-surface missiles that could be unleashed at israeli. iron dome is quite good but it can be overwhelmed. thirdly, iran launched about 180 ballistic missiles, about twice what they did in april's strike.

the israelis, with some help from the admiral says u.s. navy destroyers, were able to shoot those down. iran still has 2,000 ballistic missiles. that is the strongest part of their arsenal. so i think the idea of rushing in to a, quote, go big, unquote, conflict with iran on the part of israeli, a nation of, let's say, 10 million, 7 million jews iran's population is 90 million and a country with a lot of capability. my advice would be exercise some caution here and work along that spectrum of response that kind of goes from cyberand nonkinetic special forces and cruise missiles and nautical and lack of energy infrastructure, but do it in a defined, precise way. a wider war is going to crack

the global economy for starters. i'm not sure that is anybody's interest. and final thought. you know while a quote from the greatest book of leadership ever written, joe, you know it. it's "the godfather" and in it, don says don't make the mistake of hating your enemies. clouds your judgment. this is a time for real judgment. >> richard haass, "the wall street journal" op-ed says if not now, when? iran has opened itself to attack on its nuclear facilities and military targets inside the borders of iran. what do you suspect, after the attack of yesterday from iran's sending those rockets into israeli, what comes next? >> i believe iran basically made a fateful decision. they decided that not acting would be costly. they may have tried to thread the needle like they did in april to retaliate and not

enough to trigger an israeli response but i take people at their word. i think the israelis will respond and at minimum i think they will go after storage sites and maybe production facilities and a lot of systems that iran is producing either for themselves or for hezbollah and others. my expectation is the united states will probably push back maybe against attacking oil facilities, in part, because we are not anxious to seeing that. they might go after the saudi facilities but i don't think that will -- the question is what do the israelis use this as an opportunity to go after the nuclear program in iran. some of it is exposed and some of it is not. that is a bigger issue. let me take a guess. i don't think regime change. one interesting question if israeli attacks iran, as i think they will, will that persuade

the iranians now is the time they really do need a nuclear weapons program to prevent such things in the future. i think we could be seeing a massive turning point for the middle east. >> you mentioned the april attack which perceived as showy and iran playing to a domestic audience but relatively easily defeated and echoes of yesterday. after april, president biden told netanyahu take the win. the u.s. helped you defeat this attack. don't overdo it. israeli launched an important but strategic attack in response but relatively limited. we know right now they are debating what to do next. if president biden tries to urge them again take the win, be modest, be cautious, do we have been sense that prime minister netanyahu will listen? >> short answer is unlikely. jake sullivan wasn't saying take the win. i thought interesting about the administration, which has sent a lot of the mixed messages seeking fires in lebanon and all

that. the israelis are nog looking for a cease-fire in the north saying they are going to continue go after the inventory of hamas. they have already probably reduced it significantly but they got a long ways to go. i don't think they are prepared to take the win. they don't see it -- iran is now attacked israeli twice. neither time about great effect but that is probably a precedent the israelis decided they can't live with. i think the real influence of the administration is shaping potentially the attack and agreeing on what the scale and the targets is. but i don't think it's likely this time the israelis will swallow what the iranians did. >> so, admiral, richard said, he talked about nuclear weapons. if you were advising the president, i'm wondering if you would say the same thing that i would say, if i were advising the president, which is iran is scared. they are running scared right

now. and, yes, while some in the west may celebrate that, they have already made the decision, have they not, that they have to have that nuclear program so they can never be as vulnerable again as they are today? where their leaders are going into hiding, where they can't even shelter their own terrorists allies without them getting blown up in safe houses. don't you think iran, wouldn't it be logical to assume iran has already made the decision we have to finish this out? we have to go the final five yards and get nuclear weapons? >> i agree with that. and let's put ourselves in the shoes of the -- tehran. three principal proxy teams and others where hamas is crushed by the israeli defense forces. they got hezbollah to the north, which is being crushed by the

israeli defense forces. and they have the houthis on the red sea who are trying to shut down shipping who are going to be crushed sooner or later by a combination of the israelis and the international community because we can't just continue on with the suez canal effectively closed. the supreme leader is in undisclosed location in tehran. you're watching your three principal proxies either beaten down or getting beaten down or you know they are going to get beaten down. you you start to say to >> targets now would be that nuclear set of facilities. so send the signal, not only are we going to sit here and watch

ballistic missiles rain down on us, we are also not going to let you develop nuclear weapons in the future. i think you can do both of those messages without ending up in a wider war in the region. >> richard, you agree? >> short answer is "yes." i just don't see how any israeli prime minister could allow iran to get much farther down that path. they're probably 90, 95% of the way there, joe. given the history of the jewish experience, shall we say. bibi netanyahu also has been able to rally the country. as divided as israel was and is about gaza, it's united about hezbollah and united about iran. so, yes, i think this is likely to happen. i think there's a legitimate strategic reason. why would you trust the iranians, if you will, to self-deter? it seems to me there's very little reason to do so. >> president emeritus of the council on foreign relations,

richard haass, and retired four-star admiral navy james stavridis, thank you very much. the admiral's new book, "the restless way: a novel of the united states navy" goes on sale october 8th. coming up right here on "morning joe," we'll bring you more big moments from last night's vice presidential debate, including senator j.d. vance's claim donald trump saved obamacare. >> wait, wait, didn't he continue to mock -- >> he kept promiing john mccain, even after john mccain had passed, because john mccain saved obamacare when he wanted to kill it. >> and he said he would have an alternative in two weeks. "morning joe" will be right back. two weeks "morning joe" will be right back

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♪ call 1-800 eight million ♪ here's fernando bastiste. high and deep to left. he's watching. so are 44,000 others. oh, what a start for the pad reese, as bastiste leaves the building. >> a bomb from fernando tatis jr. a towering two-run home run to the second deck. right-hander michael king struck out 12 in seven scoreless

innings. padres shutting out the atlanta braves 4-0. game two is tonight in san diego. these are best of three. the padres can close it out. in milwaukee, the new york mets carrying their momentum in the post-season with a win in their playoffs. >> let's go, mets. >> that was in milwaukee against the brewers. a five-run including that go ahead two-run single by mark to beat the brewers, 8-4. mets close it out tonight in milwaukee in game two. how about that? over in the american league, kansas city royals superstar, bobby whitt jr. driving in the only run of yesterday's game against the orioles. a two-out single in the sixth, helping the royals return from a nine-year post-season absence. game two of that best of three wild card series today in baltimore. and in houston, america's team, at least for these three games, detroit tigers got valdez early

to hand the astros another post-season loss after he went 0-3 in the playoffs last year. meanwhile, tiger's lefty continuing his stellar season. six scoreless innings, as the tigers beat the astros, 3-1 for their first playoff win since 2013. game two is this afternoon in houston. mike barnicle joins the table. mike, this is just -- >> what a day? and you can't make a better day, can you? >> four elimination -- >> morning, noon, night, you get baseball all day and again today. >> i was surprised this morning, coming in here early. there was a vice presidential debate last night? because i was watching tatis and the padres. >> i did note on our group text, john, you and i were talking about the debate, and he said, tatis just went deep. what'd you like about what you saw last night? it's fun to watch the road team really pushing these division champions to the limit here.

>> i loved watching terk schuylkill and the tigers. detroit, a great american city. i loved watching tatis hit the home run. i think the padres are very sneaky. might be the best team in the field, other than the philadelphia phillies, who i think have the best team, but they're not playing yet. they'll play this weekend. the bottom line is baseball is such a gift to the country at this time of year. all of these playoff games, you can watch the end, there's terrific pace to the games, terrific results of the games. and today, four possible elimination -- well, it's all elimination games. >> spectacular day of baseball. schuylkill not a household name, but maybe the best pitcher in baseball, putting the astros to the brink of elimination. you feel bad for the orioles. still loses. that's right, he looked good in a red sox uniform, mike. willy, we'll note that michael king, who was so filthy for the padres last night, ex-yankee.

and then, joe, we heard you cheering for the mets during those highlights. i know mika's mets. and they continue to just roll. momentum coming out of that series against the braves. and they fell behind early yesterday. the brewers lifted their starter a little early, i would argue, and the mets just simply pounded the bull pen. >> i've just got to say, the mets have had -- i mean, man, two of the great days in their franchise history. of course, nothing like the '69 series with the amazing mets. but, man, what a comeback against the braves a couple of days ago. and what a huge win last night. i've always had a soft spot for the jets and the mets. and, you know -- which means i've seen them lose an awful lot. but, man, what a win! a couple of things, mike, i want to talk about, first of all. that mets game, you talked about

how great that mets game was and how great the last two mets games have been, really unbelievable. also, talk about the padres. you think they might have what it takes to win it all? and finally, the team that is -- i'm really excited about -- it reminds me of the 2006 cardinals. who won 83 games in 2006 and won the world series. 83 games. but they hit it right, at the right time, and i'm just looking at the tigers, thinking, if i'm a cleveland fan, i'm not really so sure i want the tigers to bump off the astros because the tigers are the hottest team in baseball right now. >> oh, you want the tigers to defeat -- you want the tigers to actually humiliate the astros. that's what you want. >> okay. >> go ahead. >> the idea that the mets are still in it and performing very, very well under extraordinary

pressure, the exhaustion factor in both the mets and the braves, flying across country, after playing a double header the other day, is amazing. it's amazing to watch. again, it gets back to october baseball. very few things in sports, to my mind, are better than october baseball. it's the last gift of summer before the leaves fall off the trees and you put the storm windows on. this is it. this is it. pay attention. >> yeah, so, we're at the start of this incredible -- and again, it's just we all love, the playoffs. you just don't know who's going to win it. mike, who's your pick, to go all the way right now? >> philadelphia. i think the phillies have the best team. i think in the end, they'll prove they have the best team. they have the best pitching staff, i think, of all of the remaining teams in the playoffs, even in the ones who haven't played. especially the yankees have trouble pitching. so i think philadelphia in the end, they take home the world

series. >> what do you think, willie? >> what did i say yesterday? i should say that again. >> you went with the yankees. >> i want to be consistent. i did go with the yankees, if they can pitch and if they can count on luke weaver as their closer in the bull pen, that was a real shaky spot for them this season. but their lineup is outrageous, it's so good. it's all come down to pitching. i'll go with them. mark derosa agreed with you yesterday that the phillies will win it all. >> jonathan? >> i went with, yesterday, with phillies/orioles. my american league pick is already on life support because of these two out of three series. i agree with mike, i think the phillies have the best lineup. it will be fun to see bryce harper get a ring. the orioles, that's a great ballpark, a great franchise, a great fan base, i would love to see it, but they're in trouble now. they need to start hitting. they got a win today, or, well, my pick is really wrong. and you actually have to feel sorry for the orioles.

they've had a great team the last couple of years, but man, they've -- so far, their playoff performance has just been absolutely dismal. i think we have replay, willie, of the last world series that the yankees won, 2009, the phillies versus the yankees. i mean wing that's going to -- that'll set up -- >> nobody said the mets. >> okay, well, come on. let's have a subway series, where the mets can take it. >> that would be great. >> boston fan calling for a subway series. >> see, see? all right. by the way, four minutes past the top of the hour, let's bring in msnbc's inside with jen psaki, jen psaki. jen, you can comment on the mets or last night's debate. >> well, settle in, everyone. i have a lot of thoughts on the mets. i do remember, okay, you're going to check me here. didn't the red sox win in 2004? >> why would you bring that up? >> no, i'm bringing this up, because i think there are

superstitions that everybody feels around. you said this time of year, people can all cheer for sports, but then there are superstitions, like if the phillies win, does that mean joe biden wins pennsylvania? how are we feeling? that's the question for everyone. >> that's good karma. >> okay, we'll root for that. i know there was a debate last night. i did watch it for you. >> did your husband watch it? >> my husband was watching baseball, for sure. for sure. >> okay, your take on the debate last night, jen? >> so, we've talked about this a little bit when we were sitting over there waiting, i think tim walz is one of the best communicators out there in democratic politics. and he propelled himself on to the ticket because he is such an effective, good communicator. i mean, i've spent most of my time, not sitting at this table, but traveling around the country on political campaigns. he is good for a reason. i feel like last night, we didn't see the magic of him for the first two third of the debate. and what -- i wasn't in the prep with him, to speak the obvious.

but i feel like he was so worried about being able to repeat the 17th page of the plan and therefore, you didn't see the magic of him until the last third. now, i think he made up for it at key moments in the last third of that debate on the affordable care act, he pushed back, could have done more, didn't finish the entire play, to keep the baseball thing going there. the moment on the 2020 election, that's the moment that the campaign has already turned into a campaign -- an ad. so there were good moments, but what it told me coming out of it is, i want to see the governor walz and the tim walz that we saw organically during veep stakes, who was out there on television, doing all of the interviews, sometimes messy, but connecting with people on the stage. and i think that was a bit of a missed opportunity, but i'm not sure that the outcome of that debate last night is going to change the outcome of the election. >> well, we talked about the outcome, if you look at the polls that we're taking out afterwards. a cnn poll actually shows that

midwest nights really work for tim walz. there are a lot of things we didn't understand. we thought he missed a lot of layups. we certainly didn't understand why he didn't have an answer ready for tiananmen square. he had to know that was coming, since that was breaking news. there are other things that just didn't work. look at this poll. this is a cnn poll taken of registered voters after the debate. and it shows actually tim walz, while they gave a slight edge to who won the debate, j.d. vance won 59-41%, on favorability, those are numbers we just don't see, tim walz, he went up 13 points and that 13 points, j.d. vance went up 11 points. but again, we all talk about that last answer that was defining. i've got to follow-up with your question about -- or your insight into how he works. i'm always telling my kids, just like i tell politicians, just

like i tell anybody that would ask me anything about business or negotiating or writing, it's all about reps. reps, reps, reps. reps. keep doing it until you're not thinking about what you're doing. and that's what tim walz was doing before he was picked. unleash the walz. >> tear down that wall! >> there are so many analogies here. but do you have any insight into the strategy for bubble wrapping him? a guy that, yeah, he's, you know, he's out there. he's jim gaffigan. that's why he was selected. >> right, exactly. and he wasn't surrounded by a million advisers and pollsters and all of the people telling him what to say. he just did tim walz and that worked to get him on the ticket. i think their strategy has been

to have him do some local media, some podcasts, some softer things. i think they are missing an opportunity in not having him out there a great deal more. i don't mean that he needs to do hard-hitting national interviews with every single anchor out there. that's not what i mean. i mean, to your point, joe, reps. when i traveled with barack obama on both of his campaigns, he did local interviews at every stop that he did. he probably did 60 on election day. and i think the thing for people out there, no one speaks in a perfect way out there, who is going to vote or paying attention, it's not about that. it's about connecting and speaking to what people care about. and you saw, there were moments of that in the debate. i thought when he quoted the bible and talked about immigration, that was a powerful moment. i thought when he kind of pushed back, a couple of times, again, during the affordable care act, that was a good moment. but it just is more is better and i think he was a little

pulled back from the magic of who he can be as a politician. but i take your point, joe, is we sometimes watch things and think, he didn't follow through, he could have hit him harder. we also saw a little bit of a hint on how he won the minnesota's governor's race and how he won. the first time i came across him is when he was running for congress in 2006 in a republican district and i was working at the democratic republican campaign committee. we all met him and thought, he seems nice. too bad he'll never be in congress. he knows how to appeal to people in a way that a lot of people that are on the national ticket did not. we did see some of that. and i think you can do that without being muted. and i found him to be a little bit more muted than i think he is when he is at his best, which is often, and often what we've seen over the past couple of months. >> and you know, the midwest regular guy. he looked like it last night. and he was nervous at the beginning. everybody can see he was nervous

at the beginning. i'm not so sure a guy up in wisconsin that's looking at this debate is freaking out because he's not as smooth as the ivy league boy on stage. i think he's probably thinking, yeah, okay, i would be nervous, too, let's see what the padres are doing. then flips back over, this walz guy is okay. i know jen and anybody else in politics would be the same way you never know exactly how people are going to respond in debates. i remember when barack obama made an offhanded comment about hillary clinton, oh, you're likable enough. he was joking, but you really would have thought that he had gone over and slapped her across the face. >> i remember that well. >> i still to this day am like, he was joking! but new hampshire voters saw it differently. and again, look at this cnn poll last night, mika. you never know. and this includes the debates, the hundreds of debates that i

was in, you know, in gettysburg and northwest florida. and you never know. sometimes when you think you've done your best, people think you came on too strong. here, tim walz, we're all being critical because he didn't do as well as ivy league guy did. and yet, look at the post-debate favorability rating. that is a number that tim walz has that politicians would kill for. >> for sure. go ahead, jen. >> i was going to say, the other challenge, as y'all talk about every day is this is not an on the level presidential race. he was not standing on the stage with a guy, who as my mother would say, was on the level. j.d. vance was campaigning like he was running with a different running mate. i mean, i don't know what that briefing book that he was using was not full of trump positions or facts, either ones. and that was who tim walz was standing on that debate stage with. so that is a challenge.

it is hard to be, and i think people want serious discussions and debates about policy, but it's hard to be guy explaining the intricacies of policy when the guy standing next to you is lying in everything that comes out of his mouth and reconstructing history of the guy who is his running mate. that's -- it's a challenge. >> yeah. >> go ahead, mike. >> it was like watching a nervous nice guy, tim walz, perform, against a guy who was lying all night long. i get that. but the other aspect of it that i found interesting is -- first of all, you know, we know very little of what the public actually thinks, you see these polls and are surprised by it. but you have tim walz is roster composition. tim walz is clearly a leadoff hitter, joe. he's a leadoff hitter. and the campaign isn't taking advantage of a good leadoff hitter. his job is to get on base, but in order to get on base, you

have to do exactly what jen was just talking about it. you have to talk to people. that's his greatest asset. he's a human being, he's relatable. so you can stop that plane in wherever it is youb go right to the local media and duoa two or three-minute interview with him, it's on the news that night and people watch him and are like, he seems like good guy, which is what the polls show. >> put him in front of local reporters in wisconsin in, in michigan, in pennsylvania, in nevada, that's the key. i will say, also, mika, that we're talking about tim walz not having a tight answer on an exaggeration about an event that happened in 1989, compare that -- i'm asking people, really, if you can sort of look through all the fog and all the

lies and all the disinformation. compare that with a another guy on stage, the ivy league guy, who was lying about what's going on in his own state, how he's making his own constituents' lives more dangerous, more disruptive, how he's damaging the economy. yeah tim walz exaggerated about things in the past, j.d. vance is lying in a way that not only hurts americans' lives today, but makes his own constituents less safe, less productive, less well off. >> yeah. >> that's pretty simple. >> all you have to do is pivot to the alternative. okay, i misspoke, 23 years ago, i'm sorry about that. and you could tell that really upset him. and i think that will play well for him. >> just be ready, be prepared. >> he has to be ready to pivot back, because the alternative --

there's so much material. but what happens in these debates. and we've seen it in town halls where moderators have the same issue as well. you get overwhelmed by the other side, whether it's trump or vance now, who have the fire hose of falsehoods coming at you, and you can see tim walz trying to keep up with them, because there were so many. i'm not joking. i mean, it's very hard to compete against somebody who doesn't play by the rules. and you would think in politics and in news coverage that that would be the baseline. that we're arguing over facts. but it doesn't happen in these debates. not with the trump/vance ticket. case in point, senator vance was talking about former president trump's goal to replace the affordable care act. and his quote, concepts of a plan on what to replace it with. take a listen. >> but i think that a lot of people have criticized this concepts of a plan remark. it's very simple common sense. i think as tim walz knows from 12 years in congress, you're not going to propose a 900-page bill

standing on a debate stage. it would bore toerve tears and it wouldn't mean anything. when obamacare was crushing under the weight of its own regulatory burden and health care costs, donald trump could have destroyed the program. instead, he worked in a bipartisan way to ensure that americans had access to affordable care. >> under kamala harris, more people are covered than they have before. those of you listening, this is critical to you. now, donald trump all of a sudden wants to go back and remember this. he ran on the first thing he was going to do on day one was to repeal obamacare. on day one, he tried to sign an executive order to repeal the aca. he signed on to a lawsuit to repeal the aca, but lost at the supreme court and he would have repealed the aca had it not been for the courage of john mccain to save that bill. and when donald trump said, i've got a concept of a plan, it cracked me up as a fourth grade teacher, because my kids would

have never given me that. >> what donald trump has said, if we allow states to experiment a little bit, on how to cover both the chronically ill, but the non-chronically ill, it's not just a plan, he actually implemented some of these regulations when he was president of the united states. and i think you can make a really good argument that it salvaged obamacare, which was doing disastrously until donald trump came along. >> what they're saying is, if you're healthy, why should you be paying more? so what they're going to do is let insurance companies pick who they insure, because guess what happens? you pay your premium, it's not much, they figure they're not going to have to pay out for you. but those of you a little older, gray, got cancer, you're going to get kicked out of it. that's why the system didn't work. kamala harris will protect and enhance the aca. >> this is one of those classic cases of trump and vance counting on the fact that there's been so much going on over the last decade. there's been so much chaos, so many lies, so much news every day that you actually forgot the

truth about what happened. he throws that out there in 2024, but the history is that donald trump ran in 2016 on repeal obamacare, signed an executive order first day in office, and famously, john mccain walked out of the floor of the senate, gave that thumbs down as one of three republicans to vote against that repeal and saved obamacare, something for which donald trump has mocked the war hero, john mccain, because he couldn't raise his arms over his shoulders, because he was tortured for five and a half years in a war that donald trump got out of for his bone spurs. but you have to cut through that lie with the truth. >> that was a great arson by governor walz. he basically hit everything you just said and did it as such an accessible way, as a teacher. i thought that was the moment, i want to see more of that tim walz. but when you hear -- it was classic j.d. vance, because he's giving an intelligent-sounding

answer that really makes no sense when you look at what he's saying. and he did that multiple times last night, especially on abortion. said he's not for a national abortion ban, but then he is. he kind of looped around in a convoluted way. it was nuts. the more that the other candidate can bring that out and pull that out, the better for the walz campaign. >> jen, i wanted to go back to you, a few other things that didn't come up last night. and governor walz made no mention of childless cat ladies. that's a talking point on the left, maybe not that big of a deal, but perhaps more seriously, no mention of ukraine. and we know that j.d. vance has made it clear that he does not think that the united states should support kyiv in its fight against vladimir putin. yet, that was left unsaid. >> it also was left unsaid by the moderators and wasn't raised by the issue, which is a major issue when it comes to who's sitting in the oval office or in the situation republican. i think ukraine is incredibly important and what the united states does, it is not an issue

that is front and center on top of mind of voters. fur tim walz, i think there are moments he could have been better, i don't think that would have been on your top ten list of things that you needed to raise last night. i do think, though, that like, you know, watching that affordable care act back and forth, there were other moments where j.d. vance gave an answer -- his answer on climate change and what should be done to address it was so nonsensical, i can't even try to explain it, so i'm not going to explain it. there were moments when i think that governor walz could have said, j.d., let's just give some respect to the people at home. there could have been moments where he could have jumped in and sort of cut him off at the pass. that was another part that i felt was a bit of a missed opportunity. could have been still been nice guy, football coach, teacher. but a little bit like, let me just stop you there, young man. i think that was a little bit of a missed opportunity. >> you know, mike, another missed opportunity was, in this

question, when donald trump and j.d. vance start going, oh, they're so liberal, we're hardly even drilling anymore, when trump comes in, drill, baby, drill. read "the wall street journal." read the "financial times." read business insider. read "the economist." the united states of america has drilled more oil, has produced more oil this year than any other country in history. any other country in history! and so i'm surprised he didn't lead with that. and again, who is he trying to appeal to? trying to appeal to swing voters in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, in georgia, in arizona, and nevada. he's not running in a democratic primary. they need to lead with that the next time trump and vance suggest that somehow there are these lefties that are afraid to

drill. they've set the record! america is producing more oil under joe biden and kamala harris than it did under donald trump. in fact, they're producing more than any other country. i know that's not the sort of thing you want to say in democratic primaries. they're the sort of things they want to say right now. we're doing everything we can to keep your gas prices low, to keep the economy moving. to make sure we don't slide into that recession. >> you know, joe, you were talking about something there that lurks over this entire campaign. and it's the coverage of the campaign. and i hesitate to do this, but the reptorial coverage of this campaign in a daily basis is abusive to the public mind, and to the voters' minds. i mean, when we are now in a

situation where whether or not tim walz was at tiananmen square on a specific date in the spring of 1989, and that receives more coverage than things that donald trump says about war wounded, you know, the concussions, stuff like that from explosives and everything else, well, they just have a headache, they're okay. you know, when he spends the darkest weekend in my lifetime of reading and hearing about politics this past weekend. basically, we're all done in america. america is done as a country, unless you elect me. when that receives just a couple of agate type lines in a news story, rather than being a major story about a candidate's physical and mental fitness to serve as president, we've lost our way in covering this campaign. and i think when you lose your way in covering the campaign, the voters' priorities are skewed a bit by reading, especially in the print coverage of the campaign. and it's more than troubling.

it's damaging. >> well, it is more than troubling. and let me just say, and alex said right here, that tim walz did talk about that. and yes, he did talk about it. they didn't lead with it last night. he did get to the point eventually. i guess i'm just saying, again -- >> it's how he frames it. >> it's the assertiveness. it's framing it. it's leading with the lead. >> and showing the contrast. i'm telling you the truth and the guy next to me is lying. he's lying to the american people, repeatedly. i don't know how you could trust him when he lies every day. >> and when j.d. vance is saying, oh, the biden administration and harris administration are weak on this front, you lead on this front. weak? we're doing more than anybody has ever done. final thought here, as we're talking about all of these granular details, mike brings up a great point. and i've got great respect for

editors and journalists, publishers of the mainstream media that are doing everything they can do to push back on all the falsehoods, all the lies that are coming mainly from the trump/vance campaign. i will say, though, when you have donald trump talking about the need for a day of great violence. >> whoa! >> a day of violence. when that guy right there -- >> wow! >> -- when he's asked or talks about what his policy is on crime and his answer is, a day of extreme violence -- a day of extreme violence! we have a presidential candidate that has a 50/50 chance of getting elected. look at him. this guy right here says the way he's going to take care of crime is by allowing a day of extreme violence. and that's not on the front page

of the "new york times"? >> that's not a question in the debate? >> that's not on the front page of "the washington post"? and that's not on the front page of the "wall street journal." and that's not a question in the debate? attempted overturning of a presidential election is the last question in a debate, as it was 45 minutes in in the cnn debate. it's the last question in last night's debate? maybe this is why americans don't have the perspective they need to have on this debate. again, not knocking -- >> totally agree. >> i'm not knocking members of the media who are doing their best, but we all, i include myself, include everybody on this -- i'll just include myself. we all need to do a better job. but when you have a candidate who this week said he -- he said i'm going to be dictator for a

day. same guy who said, we should execute the chairman of the joint chiefs. the same guy who told his staff that mike pence deserved hanging. the same guy who said, i'm going to be a dictator on day one -- >> wants to pardon the january 6th committee. >> the same guy who says he wants to pardon the people who brutalized cops and whose family members say he's responsible for the death of their four police officers. family members. then we lose perspective. and suddenly, that is the normalizing of donald trump and that is something that we cannot afford in the final months of this campaign. >> and that's the concern people were feeling last night, as well. >> still ahead on "morning joe." the latest on the major escalation overseas, as israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu threatens to retaliate following iran's missile attack

yesterday. nbc's keir simmons and richard engel both join the conversation next on "morning joe." we'll be right back. ersation xt on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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with a qualifying trade-i. don't wait! call, click or visit an xfinity store today. this morning, we're following the rising tensions out of the middle east. yesterday, iran fired about 180 missiles into israeli territory. most interpretintercepted with of american forces and no deaths have been reported inside israel. iranian officials are warning against any retaliation, saying

tehran will hit israel's entire infrastructure if it takes anymore action. joining us now, nbc news chief international correspondent, keir simmons, live from doha, qatar, and nbc news chief foreign correspondent, richard engel live in lebanon. let me begin with you, richard. what are you hearing in terms of a possible retaliation now from israel? >> well, israel has made it clear that it is going to respond. i've spoken to very senior u.s. military officials. they fully believe that israel is going to respond. it's a matter of when, not if. the question that everyone in this region is asking right now is, how severe will israel strike back at iran? will it try to carry out regime change? will it be a symbolic strike, like it was after april. will it go after iran's nuclear sites? the pentagon made it clear yesterday that pentagon briefing that the u.s. fully supports a strike, but wants it to be commensurate with what happened.

so i think right now, israel is still calibrating its response. it is coordinating its response with the united states. we are entering a period of jewish holidays, so the expectation is that it might take a few more days before we see an israeli response. if you parse the words that israeli prime minister netanyahu was saying yesterday, he listed off the names of militant leaders who have attacked israel in the past. nearly all of them subsequently assassinated by israel. and he said that iran is going to learn that same lesson. so, it is also possible, quite possible, that we will see targeted strikes against specific iranian leaders. a lot of options on the table that there will be a response to this. >> and richard, what are you hearing about a potential attack on iran's nuclear program? something that's been talking about for many, many years, and now perhaps a door opened for israel due to that. is that likely? unlikely? what are you hearing?

>> not hearing anything that specific. that would be the most sensitive classified kind of information. but, i was looking at this region, it would certainly be feasible. last april, the israelis struck back near a nuclear facility. iran is developing its -- what it calls a nuclear power program. and i could easily hear israeli prime minister netanyahu making an argument. he hasn't made it yet, but i could hear this argument coming, that last night, israel with the help of its allies, including the united states, defended itself against this ballistic missile barrage, but what if those ballistic missiles had been topped with nuclear weapons. israel could never tolerate such a situation. so i could easily see israel using this as a justification to attack the nuclear sites. it would be an escalation, but that's the situation we're in.

we seem to be in escalatory phase, but there are still optimists. i've spoken to several diplomats in the region who hope that this can be a moment to de-escalate. so a lot of things are on the table, but yes, i could see, willie, a strike on the nuclear facilities. i could see that. the rationale for that being made. >> keir, let's talk about those diplomatic options. iran's president arriving later today in qatar. what more can you tell us about that meeting? >> reporter: well, that's right, willie. qatar provides fascinating context and really a snapshot of what a future president, the kind of world a future president will have to deal with, because you're right. pezeshkian, the iranian president, is flying here to qatar, a country that geographically and diplomatically is positioned in the middle of this, describes itself as a mediator. he is flying here to qatar less than 24 hours after iran

launched those strikes against israel. others who are coming here, china, russia, india, all of the gulf states, saudi arabia, uae, bahrain. and who else is here? hamas is here. they have a headquarters here and we sat down with them just this morning, a few hours after that attack. a senior official from hamas, he criticized -- he gave me a picture, really, of how hamas continued to fuel all of this. he criticized arab countries for not doing enough to support hamas and at the same time, said that he said, quote, i have no clue whether we will meet with the iranians when they are here. take a listen. >> iran finally last night launched less than 200 missiles. are you disappointed by the support or reaction that you've seen from iran?

>> it is a war crime for hamas, iran and beirut, it's their decision how to do it, operational decision, logistical decision, how to do it. >> would you have expected more support from iran? >> look, we are expecting support, not only from the iranians, we are expecting support from anyone in the region and outside the region. we are under occupation and we are looking for our freedom and dignity. >> reporter: some more news from that interview. he said yahya sinwar, the leader of hamas is still alive. he's communicating with the people on the ground. the head of the hamas military wing, he says he is still alive. the israelis have said that they had killed him some months ago. and he also says, and this is -- well, whoever you hear it from, this is plainly distressing for the families of the hostages.

he said, there haven't been real negotiations since july 2nd. he says, every now and then, there's an all-out briefing by the brokers, by which he means countries like qatar, about their talks to the israelis, by which he means a circulatory way that this negotiation happens, finally ending with conversations with the israelis. so while all of this is going on, everything that richard talked about, those families of the hostages are on the sidelines, you would have to say, frankly, at this point. >> yeah and it's -- it's so tragic, the tragedy continues for them. you bring up, keir, qatar and you bring up the leaders that are coming to qatar. it takes us back to the beginning of this crisis on october 7th. and the month leading up to october, talk about the unique position that qatar finds itself in.

yes, having hezbollah leaders and hamas leaders there, but also, being the place where benjamin netanyahu continued to go for years. telling qatar to fund hamas, and even three weeks beforehand, netanyahu pushing qatar to fund hamas, right before the october 7th attacks. how does qatar fit in -- because it's too simple to just say, oh, yeah, they support terrorists that want to destroy israel. they have also been israel's instrument to fund some of those terrorist organizations. why? >> reporter: yeah, that's right. certainly, hamas is here. and we've seen, for example, of course, the taliban here at times. qatar is the poster child, really, for the argument that it is worth mediating. that it makes sense to have

connections with all different groups, no matter how objectionable those groups might be, in order to be able to talk. and let's be honest, that perspective is under threat, is under pressure right now. i mean, ultimately, october 7th really put it under pressure. because effectively, what had been happening was that hamas had been effectively allowed to of thrive frankly with the idea that it could be managed. october 7th crushed that idea. and now what you have is an argument, a debate, frankly, led by the israelis over whether you can say the same about the iranians. now, the iranian president, as i mentioned, is on his way here. and there are mixed messages from iran. the iranian president, who was at the united nations just recently appearing to try to argue for negotiation that things have tried to suggest that iran might be proceed to compromise. and yet, last night, you have those almost 200 missiles fired

by iran, once again, against israel. so qatar is stuck in the middle. it has its critics. but it certainly has -- it's battling to make its argument right now. >> all right, keir simmons, thank you so much. also, of course, the largest u.s. military base in the middle east in qatar. richard engel, let's talk history for a second here. because i'm hearing talk about possible regional war. "the wall street journal" this morning talking about the need for israel and the united states to go in to iran. people talking about destroying the program. and israel, obviously, has had very successful campaigns over the past several weeks. but i can't help but going back to 2003, spring of 2003, where people like me, 70% of americans, the overwhelming majority of senators supported an invasion of iraq, which started very well. we could also talk about

israel's incursion into lebanon in the early 1980s. began very well and ended very badly. we're hearing everyone talk about the need to go into iran, the need to be strong, the need to destroy their nuclear program. and perhaps history will prove these people to be right. i'm curious, though, as somebody who knows the region as well or better than any american reporter, what are the fears? what are the consequences? what are the unforeseen consequences of an all-out regional war with israel versus iran? >> reporter: so, well, first of all, thank you for saying all of that. and history does have a tendency to always be current and always be rewritten in this part of the world, sometimes on the same pages of the same book, you can also include the u.s.-backed coup attempt in iran that

ultimately led to the 1979 revolution, and the birth of the islamic republic as an unforeseen consequence and an attempt of regime change. and it was something you were talking about with keir just a moment ago, and i think it was something that you were driving at. it's the concerns that people have in this region and it is about the person of prime minister netanyahu. prime minister netanyahu a year ago was a defeated politician. he was being blamed by the israeli public for not accepting responsibility for the october 7th massacre, for the security failings, for the intelligence failings. and now, with the war against hezbollah, the unprecedented intelligence coup that israel was able to carry out, blowing up the group's communication device, then that show of force that iran put up last night with the israel and the united states defeating it quite systemically, prime minister netanyahu is riding high at the moment. he has been able to reestablish

his credibility and many people are starting to say, as you're suggesting right now, that maybe he has a point. that maybe this war needs to continue. if you listen to what prime minister has been saying over the last several months, first, in a very fiery speech to the u.s. congress, he received standing ovation frts the republicans, saying that the u.s. and israel need to get together to form a military alliance against the iran. he made a similar argument in an address directly to the iranian people that they need a regime change. and many people in this part of the world that i'm speaking to worry that now that he is back on his feet and there is this power vacuum in the united states, as the u.s. goes through this very tumultuous period of transition, that it would be an opportunity for netanyahu to gather support to try to push for regime change. and regime change, perhaps it

goes well or perhaps it leads to an utter catastrophe and decades more of conflict in this region. i think that's really why people are watching so closely iran's response. will prime minister netanyahu, newly emboldened, back on his feet, use this as an opportunity to push an agenda that he has been pushing ever more loudly. >> yeah. nbc's richard engel, live from lebanon. thank you very much for your reporting and analysis. and coming up, senior adviser for the harris/walz campaign, ian sams joins us next with where the campaign goes from here following last night's vice presidential debate. "morning joe" will be right back. ntial debate "morning joe" will be right back ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart ♪ ♪ as time went on, it was easy to seeee ♪

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first of all, i never supported a national ban. i did talk about setting a

standard. we have an abortion ban, and the democrats have taken a radical pro abortion stance. >> i would like abortion to be illegal nationally. >> joining us now, senior adviser to the harris/walz campaign, and he spoke as the white house spokesperson. it's great to have you back on the show. monday morning quarterbacking, wondering if tim walz took enough of an aggressive stance against j.d. vance especially when he lied onstage last night. your thoughts? >> thanks for having me. a couple things about this. i was looking last night late in the night about the data coming in about the debate.

i know it's another network, but cnn's poll when they asked people who is more in touch with people like you, by 13 points governor walz led j.d. vance. in the same poll tim walz increased his favorability rating by four points more than j.d. vance did. throughout the entire debate on issue after issue, governor walz talked in a plain and spoken way, and j.d. vance was on the defense about trump's failed policies, and watching the reaction to this, multiple times you had people laughing at j.d. vance when the moderators asked him about his criticism of trump, and they were turned off

about the last exchange about january 6th, when tim walz asked j.d. vance straight to his face, he would not answer, and people were turned off. i think when people see this debate they saw two different visions for the country, governor walz looking at kamala's position, and j.d. vance defending trump. >> tim walz' favorability jumped up to politicians these days, national politicians these days rarely enjoy the numbers that he enjoys right now. it's a 59 favorable to 52 unfavorable split. j.d. vance improved his image but is still upsidedown pap

politico poll show independents overwhelmingly say walz won the debate. i am confused. maybe you can help me out, you know, an alabama guy -- >> oh, god. >> he's a alabama guy. i can make the joke. >> okay. >> vance says he will be the protector of women's reproductive rights, and then you have his running mate, j.d. vance saying he doesn't support a national abortion ban and then there's all this audio and interviews where he says he does support a national abortion ban. what answer is correct? >> well, in the middle of the debate donald trump went on truth social in one of his

famous all-caps rants saying he would never support a national abortion ban, and we were struck by that because he was asked three times when you veto a national abortion ban and he didn't answer. i think they know this is a drag on their candidacy because donald trump knows he's responsible for appointing the three supreme court justices that overturned roe v. wade, and you heard governor walz last night speak about tragically women who are losing their lives under these bans. when voters are tuned in on the issue of reproductive freedom, there's no contest. harris is looking to get it

back. this issue incapsulates it. he was the one days ago demonizing communities, and now he's midwest nice. it's about as fast as when he went from calling trump hitler to being his running mate. trump/vance are trying to sell the country a bill of goods to get through the next 30 days and win the election. we will talk about the issues important to the american people and the plans the vice president and walz have to get them done. >> hi, good to see you. jen psaki. i don't know what vance was talking about during the debate, it was not about his running

mate, but that being said. tim walz should be out there all the time and doing more events and interviews. i believe that's true. i think he's really effective and empowerful and impactful communicator, and now that he doesn't have to worry about that, what should we expect? is he going to be doing more interviews? >> he will go on a much more aggressive blitz hitting the campaign trail hard in pennsylvania, in counties trump won in 2020, he's going there and bringing fetterman along with him. he will do more interviews, and vice president harris will do more interviews, she did two yesterday, one in atlanta,

including the storm and the damage and she will travel there today to get a briefing. they will be out there much more visibly in the next 35 days as they make their closing arguments in the race of do we want to go back to the chaos and division of donald trump, or do we want to focus on peoples' issues and solving them. she gave people last week two major speeches, one on her economic vision for the country and one how tough she will be on border security after donald trump failed to take on the issue. she will talk about the issues over the next 35 days. she will talk about what's happening in the middle east and what is happening there. is this a time when you want donald trump back in the white house where he's using his

thumbs to post something overnight, or do we want somebody who comes to a solution for the global challenges, and whether it's on tv or high-impact podcasts or targeting key voters that are trying to make up their mind and maybe they are not that tuned in but tuning in to their favorite sports broadcast and then tim walz or the vice president show up. >> thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> roll tide. still ahead, we will have more on the recovery efforts across the southeast as president biden is getting a firsthand look today on some of the devastation. we are back in two minutes with much more "morning joe." xiidra was made for that, so relief is lasting.

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walz and vance stuck to the issues, and it was very boring. i like things better with trump. i do. in watching the vice presidential debate, it's like taking your kids apple picking and halfway through you are like, okay, you know, this sounded like it would be fun but what is the point. they were a half of a heartbeat away from being interesting. it was a vice presidential debate. one of these men will lose and we will never hear from him again and the other will become vp and we will never hear from him again. >> the minnesota governor and ohio senator, largely kept things cordial in last night's debate focusing most of their attacks at their running mates at the top of the ticket. we will go through the big moments from what could be the

final face-off between the campaigns before election day. we'll bring you a live report from the middle east following a major escalation by iran launching a massive ballistic missile attack on israel. we will have the latest developments just ahead. two major stories this morning. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 2nd. along with joe, willie and me we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, and msnbc political analyst, elise jordan, a former aide to the george w. bush white house, and donny deutsch is with us, as well as eddie, and charlie sykes. great group to start us off. as i was nervously preparing to

watch the debate, you reminded me vice presidential debates don't matter that much. after watching last night, do you still believe that? >> i do. i do. in this debate, though, several interesting things occurred even though vice presidential debates don't matter. polls show that midwestern nice actually worked despite walz' shaky start and his stumbles on the china answer and i don't know why he didn't have an answer for that other than saying i'm a knucklehead. i will remember that. and you had j.d. vance, an elitists that went through ivy

league school and knew how to answer the questions smoothly and how to work the format. i think most people would say he did much better last night stylistically, but interesting enough, and i always found this with debates, you never knew how things will come across and when i saw the cnn poll last night, it showed midwest nice really worked for walz. tim walz' favorability worked, it jumped 13 points, and he had a 59% favorable rate after the debate and 22% before the debate. that's extraordinarily is modern american politics. for awful us watching, for all the elites watching saying he

looked nervous, there was something that undecided and registered voters liked about tim walz. maybe that's something we will sort through over the next few weeks, even though it won't have a big impact on the election. and j.d. vance is upsidedown, and he also showed a side of himself that he had not showed before, and he tried to be more likeable and agreeable, and those that knew him before he was a trumper, he was a nice guy and he tried to show more of that last night because it's almost he got a sense this election may end and he doesn't want to completely tie himself to donald trump. he's 40 years old. he has a future. while trump likes going to war nonstop against everybody, you have to say j.d. vance decided, hey, you know, i will try and

salvage my political career even if donald trump goes up in flames. that would have been fine and dandy. no doubt this morning there will be consternation in mar-a-lago, because more are saying j.d. vance should talk at the campaign and donald trump should shut up, and -- >> is he lying? >> no, he's just smoother. you can say lying if you want. but donald trump, he's getting old. they are not letting him do 60 minutes because they know he's not capable of doing it because he can't answer policy questions. still, j.d. vance, willie, j.d. vance was stylistically better. he told a lot of lies about aca and told a lot of lies about other issues. i will say this, j.d. vance was

very clarifying at the end of this debate. he told viewers everywhere that was watching, if you hate american democracy when things don't go your way, vote for me. if you hate everything that james madison put together and alexander hamilton put in the constitution, if you hate the tradition of peaceful transition, really defiant in insuring american democracy, you hate that if donald trump doesn't win every election, vote for me. it was one of the most clarifying moments in presidential or vice presidential debates you could ever see, because he clearly said that he was going to continue the lies of donald trump and not even answer the basic question, did joe biden

win the 2020 election. that will work very well for a lot of hard right people on the internet, and maybe on x and other social media platforms, but he defined himself. he defined his campaign. he defined the choice in this election. i am not a democrat. i doubt i will ever be a democrat, i am an independent. i am one of those people looking at both of these guys, and people ask me, why don't you support the republicans? j.d. did the work for me last night. one guy is democratic, and one is pro james madison -- >> what about women's rights? >> you can debate that.

that has been part of the debate since 1973. what has not been part of the debate is whether we can continue with the constitutional transfer of power. last night j.d. vance refused to answer if he supported the peaceful transfer yesterday. if you were robert frost and horseshack, that made all the difference. >> he is so much better at this than donald trump, and he was asked a simple question at the end from tim walz who turned to him and said did donald trump lose the 2020 election, and he never answered that question.

he said, we had a peaceful transfer of power, and the capital was surrounded by security fence so nothing would happen. here's the exchange at the end that joe is talking about. >> would you, again, seek to challenge this year's election results even if every governor certifies the results? >> first of all, we are focused on the future and we need to solve the inflation crisis and make housing affordable and groceries affordable and i want to answer your question because you did ask it. donald trump said there were problems in 2020 and my own belief is we should fight about those issues and debate those issues peacefully in the public square and that's all i said and that's all donald trump has said. >> it's really rich for democratic leaders to say donald trump is the unique threat to

the democracy when he peacefully gave over power as we have done for 250 years in this country. >> it manifested itself because of donald trump's inability to say. he's still saying he did not lose the election. did he lose the 2020 election? >> i am focused on the future. did kamala harris sensor the information -- >> that's a damning nonanswer. where is the firewall if he knows he can do anything including taking the election and his vice president will not stand up to it. that's the question, america, will you stand up and keep your oeft office even if the president doesn't?

i think kamala harris would agree, she wouldn't have picked me if i didn't do that because of course that's what we would do. you have a clear choice of who will honor the democracy and who would honor donald trump. >> i think it's simple. as everybody around donald trump and even himself knows, and for as smooth as j.d. vance was and as fluent he sounded on policy, skpr his own record -- misrepresenting his own record, j.d. vance, on abortion, and he was good last night. that moment that crystalized the whole thing, and you can't say your running mate lost the election. >> he was good. he was too slick, maybe, but he certainly was not the kind of

despicable character we have seen. i think that was disqualifying in the election if you can't say that. that's the issue, whenever i get into debates with anybody, democracy on the docket, and i want to go back to jimmy kimmel's joke at the beginning. it was not a blood sport or ufc but more like boxing. intuition says the american public was ready for that, and then i say, is there a sick and twisted thing where people are addicted to the sick entertainment part of donald trump and they were disappointed -- i was enjoying it, and others were saying that's no fun. are we going back to that?

no, my inner angels are saying, we are ready. and j.d. vance, people are saying he's great, and that's going to bother donald trump and he will be dismissive in the coming months of j.d. vance. >> yeah, j.d. vance is much, much better at this, and trump did praise him on social media last night. you did get the sense that he was aware of his likability being in the dumps with donald trump, and to present in those 90 minutes, anyway, a reasonable alternative. now, you could only think if you only watched last night and had not seen everything else he does on the campaign trail day-to-day

in support of donald trump. >> yeah, j.d. vance put forth his best self last night, and walz never used the world weird and he kept talking about how donald trump is weird. he also talked about pete rose and the hall of fame, and so his focus did -- but tim walz didn't mention weird and never talked about childless cat ladies, and didn't talk about ukraine, and he only brought up project 2025 once and that has been an issue effective for democrats, and

that final minute was the best moment. >> yeah, and it was the best moment but at the end of the debate. a little late. i was disappointed. i felt like the reasons kamala harris chose tim walz didn't come out last night, the walz who was joking and free flowing in interviews and was kind of, you know, that guy in your hometown and a local leader and is a lot of fun but can be serious. i just saw somebody trying to be who he wasn't and it allowed j.d. vance to skate through. it was disappointing that tim walz didn't have a good answer of why he said previously that he was in tianamen square when he wasn't. he could have misspoke and said i'm sorry but instead he almost made it worse. >> i agree with you. i was surprised by that moment and surprised by a number of moments like that, but we will

take that one as the example. by the way, i don't think it matters how late the great moment was because unfortunately, we tv people are not that important anymore, and people take nuggets on social media. it's the truth. it will be all about the clips and what is put out here and there, so he can still win the day and it's -- the reaction, it's not bad to tim walz, but i will say to the tiananmen square answer, i was talking about, i was waiting for my misspoke. and the governor of ohio is begging for j.d. vance and donald trump to stop doing that to their community, and he's lying about the 2020 election. i misspoke 20 years ago and he misspoke hours ago, and these guys lie for a living.

that would have been my answer. >> despite the fact you look at the polling, tim walz won the debate. it shows vance with a slight advantage, and tim walz went up, his likability. as you are looking at the number, it's really interesting. you look at that number, eddie, and i go back -- let's keep that up for a second. i go back to what elise just said. he's a guy in your hometown. >> yeah. >> that's the affect he gave off. he was nervous last night. he started out nervous. he found his footing but it was an uneven performance at best. i am reminded what andy card said about george bush, the fact

that bush talks like a regular guy and bush is not a smooth talker, and the elite at the "new york times" and "washington post" don't understand is, that's why regular guys like bush so much, and you could say the same thing about joe biden, but you look at the favorable and unfavorables after the debate, and this guy, it's a wonder he's looking at the ivy league guy and seeing what a smooth talker was and then walz stumbled a little bit and maybe that's why his favorability went up so much. when you and i talk, an ivy league guy, and i am a country boy, and i struggle getting

through the senate. it's like when i was at gettysburg -- oh, i am a knucklehead, you just go ahead and answer the question. >> joe, i think you're right. there are moments when i was rooting for it. i was, come on, governor, make it, and in that empathetic kind of experience of wanting him to do better, and you are right, he was nervous in the beginning and he found his footing, especially on the issue of health care, abortion and january 6th. remember that line, he said that's the only reason why mike pence is not standing here is because -- i thought that was one of the most powerful lines of the night when he said j.d. vance was here because he would allow donald trump to undermine democracy, right? i think he was coached in such a way, joe, that he did not hold vance accountable. he allowed vance to look as a

reasonable guy and allowed vance to re-invent the trump agenda and he didn't put it to him with project 2025, and vance did not have to defend it outside the question around abortion, and i thought that niceness was endearing to some but the danger that the trump/vance ticket presents required a little more aggression, seems to me, joe. >> yeah, it's like what we said after the joe biden debate, so many easy lay-ups not made. it was not disastrous for tim walz. he survived it, but, man, it seems the harris campaign has been in neutral over the past week or so and it would have been good for them to have somebody turn to j.d. vance saying you are just lying. >> and you're weird. >> you are just making this up

and you bring up all the things that have been defining j.d. vance's campaign up to this point, and that didn't happen. >> think about what has been going on this week. j.d. vance won on style points, but this is not figure skating. let's put it in context here. my reaction was not only the lost opportunity but the whole debate and walz' performance, and normalizing and housebreaking j.d. vance, and ultimately he was defined by the last couple of minutes where he refused to acknowledge donald trump lost the election and that is disqualifying. to your point about the missed opportunities, in the last couple of days donald trump came to my home state of wisconsin, and he continues to lie about immigrants and yesterday

insulted american shoulders saying they had headaches after they were attacked by iranian missiles, who has lied about the disaster recovery efforts of helene. all of that, and yet you have to pull back the lens a little bit and say this is not a normal presidential campaign and yet the conceit of the debate last night is these two guys are talking about policy. well, no, this is not a normal campaign. j.d. vance -- the j.d. vance you saw last night is very, very different from the j.d. vance you have seen on the right-wing podcast, the j.d. vance talking about the childless cat lady and the j.d. vance that lied about the haitian immigrants. i think it was a lost opportunity but let's keep coming back to the fact that j.d. vance was exposed in the final disqualifying nonanswer.

still, major escalation in the middle east as iran launched a missile attack against israel. we will get the very latest from lebanon when "morning joe" comes right back.

welcome back. now to the major developments out of the middle east where iran launched a ballistic missile against israel, and

yesterday fired about 180 missiles into israel territory, and with the help of u.s. forces most of the missiles were intercepted and no deaths were reported in israel. one civilian did die in the west bank. a small town in central israel was also hit, damaging a school building. nobody was injured in that attack. iran claims it targeted three military bases including an air base in the desert. the idf said the attack had no affect on the air force's operational abilities. israel has taken responsibility for the deaths of hezbollah's leader. now, israeli prime minister

benjamin netanyahu is vowing to retaliate saying, iran, quote, made a big mistake and it will pay for it. iranian officials are warning against any retaliation, saying tehran will hit israel's entire infrastructure if it takes any anymore actions. >> this is a significant escalation by iran and it's equally significant we were able to step up with israel and nobody was killed in the attack so far as we know at this time. we will look at the appropriate next steps to secure american interest and then promote stability to the maximum as we go forward. >> let's bring in international correspondent, matt bradley, live from beirut.

what is the latest? >> reporter: as you can see, we're right on the coast here and for the past two weeks we have had a front row seat to the terrifying view of what is the continuing assault in the suburbs of beirut. this is a hezbollah stronghold and this is what we saw an enormous series of explosions of the bunker buster bombs that killed 20 top officials of hezbollah. we have heard about the bombardments, and we are back at the point where it looks like the israel is firing back. we just got a report from hezbollah saying they have engaged israeli troops within territories over the blue line and it looks as though there's a

actual real expression of the ground invasion by the israelis, and that's something everybody is looking at. could this get worse? beirut is not on the table for a ground invasion, and doesn't look like there will be tanks rolling in there like in the civil war. this is a situation that absorbs the rest of the arab world and middle east. lebanon, the small and beautiful diverse country, it rarely affects other countries but takes the blows of what is going on elsewhere. we have seen the iranian missiles going into israel, and we caught one glimpse from over here, and what we really saw was celebratory gunfire, and it showed the people here that support hezbollah were so cheered as they saw iran punishing israel, though, as you said, that punishment didn't

really land. the situation here is one of waiting. it reached an impasse for lebanon and the rest of the middle east. the ball is now in israel's court. whatever they decide to do is the problem for lebanon is there is likely to be an effect here. this is where hezbollah is based, and iran's cat paw that faces lebanon. >> we have more in the middle east just ahead when others join the conversation. and how reproductive rights factored into last night's vice presidential debate. we will talk to the author of a new book about the issue when "morning joe" comes right back. dry... tired... itchy, burning... my dry eye symptoms got worse over time. my eye doctor explained the root was inflammation. xiidra was made for that, so relief is lasting. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if allergic to xiidra

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♪♪ let's bring in now president

on council of foreign relations, richard haas, and former retired four-star navy admiral, the chief international analyst for nbc news. >> admiral, we are surrounded by armchair warriors who sit and drink their lattes in manhattan offices and write editorials on their apple laptops or maybe with their mount blanc 10. when it comes to nuclear retaliation by russia after threatening nuclear war, don't worry about that. they will never use that. now here we have "wall street journal" editorial page saying

now is the time for israel to invade -- now is the time for israel to invade iran, start a regional war and if they don't start a regional war and if the united states doesn't join them in a regional war in the middle east it means somehow that joe biden is weak. a summation that only "the wall street journal" editorial page could come up with. if netanyahu does not start a regional war, it's because joe biden is weak. you have known war, actually. what are the consequences of a regional war between iran and israel? >> they are enormous. let's start with the economics. if i am tehran and the israel's, quote, go big, unquote. there will be 30% plus of the world's oil goes through there.

secondly, although battered, hezbollah still has an inventory of missiles that could be unleashed on israel, and the iron dome is quite good but could be overwhelmed, and iran launched twice the missiles they did in the april strike, and the help from the u.s. navy destroyers were able to shoot them down. hezbollah still has 2,000 ballistic missiles, and that's part of their arsenal, and the, quote, go big, on iran, iran's population is 90 million. it's a big country with a lot of capability. my advice would be exercise some

caution here and work along that spectrum of response that goes from cyber nonkinetic special forces, cruise missiles, nautical, and lack of energy structure, and do it in a precise way. a wider war will crack the economy, for starters and i don't know if that's in anybody's interest. >> if not, when, and what do you suspect after the attack yesterday from iran sending the rockets into israel, what comes next? >> i believe iran basically made a decision, and they decided not acting would be costly and may have tried to thread the needle like in april and did just

enough to say they responded and i think the israelis will respond and at a minimum i think they will go after storage sites and maybe production areas. the united states will probably push back against attacking oil facilities, because we are not interested to see a larger energy war, and they could go after the saudi's oil. to me is if the israelis use this opportunity to go after the nuclear program in iran. some is exposed and some is not. that's a big issue. if they do, i will make another guess, and i don't think regime change is not easily brought about, and the israel prime minister is talking about it. but will that persuade the

iranians that now is the time they do need a nuclear weapons program to prevent such things in the future. to think we are seeing what could be seen in retrospect, history in the middle east. and then i don't know if you saw the interview on cnn where caitlyn collins responded to don junior going, oh, people are calling him hitler. and she said, wait, j.d. vance said your father was hitler. oops. >> that's coming up next on "morning joe." >> everybody wants your dad to be safe and nobody wants threats

against your father -- >> when somebody has a platform to call him literally hitler for nine years, that creates it -- >> j.d. vance once likened your dad to hitler as well and requested if he was hitler, but i want to talk about the debate. ♪♪ ♪♪ with fastsigns, signage that gets you noticed turns hot lots into homes. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement.

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supported of israel. coming up, one of the top israel diplomats coming up. michael orren weighs in just ahead on "morning joe." now i have skyrizi. ♪ i've got places to go and i'm feeling free ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me ♪ ♪ control is everything to me ♪ and now i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi helped visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and with skyrizi, many were in remission at 12 weeks, at 1 year, and even at 2 years. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to.

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from that as a republican who proudly wants to protect innocent life in this country, who proudly wants to protect the vulnerable, is that my party, we've got to do so much better of a job at earning the american people's trust back on this issue or they frankly just don't trust us. i think that's one of the things that donald trump and i are endeavoring to do. i want us as a republican party to be pro-family in the fullest sense of the word. i want us to support fertility treatments, i want us to make it easier for mom to afford to have babies, i want to make it easier for young families to afford a

home so they can afford a place to raise that family. there's so much we can do on a public policy front just to give women more options. >> i use this line on this, just mind your own business on this. things worked best when roe v. wade was in place. when we do a restoration of roe that does best. that doesn't preclude us from increasing funding for children, it doesn't prevent us from making sure they get meals, early education, they get health care. hiding behind we're going to do all these other things when you are not proposing them in your budget, kamala harris is proposing them, she's proposing all those things to make life easier for families. >> that was part of the exchange in last night's debate on the issue of abortion rights. abortion figures to play a prominent role in the presidential race, it will also be a major factor at the state level this november. across the country abortion-related referendums are on the ballot in ten states

including five that currently have some type of abortion ban already in place. the restrictions on reproductive health care in the u.s. is one of the topics discussed in the new book entitled "abortion: our bodies, their lies, and the truth we use to win." and the book's best selling author jessica valenti joins us now. very good to have you on the show. what are some of the more dangerous lies that you are taking on in this book? >> there are so many. i think we saw a lot of them actually last night with j.d. vance, the biggest one being that republicans care about women's health and that they are working to protect women's health. i think vance worked really, really hard last night to try to seem compassionate because he knows that republicans are losing so badly on this issue, but americans can see what's happening in front of their faces every day, they know that there's nothing compassionate about miscarrying women being

turned away from hospitals or cancer patients being denied radiation or little girls being forced into childbirth. i think that is really the biggest one, that they knew that this is what the consequences of their laws would be and they did it anyway. >> so in the book you argue, jessica, that republicans are backing away from the term "ban" when it comes to discussing abortion. you write in part, quote, the anti-abortion movement's effort to redefine "ban" means they are on the defensive, literally running from their own policies. some republicans have even begun to adopt pro-choice rhetoric calling their 12-week abortion bans plans to legalize abortion up to 12 weeks. they're using these words to trick americans, making them believe that these laws are far less extreme than they actually are. with americans getting angrier and angrier at what abortion bans are doing to their families and communities, republicans are

desperate to hide the truth from voters. let's make it harder for them. and we can start by pointing out that their science and expertise is anything but. you know, i think tim walz made a great point last night and that is no matter whether you are a democrat or a republican, you're going to know somebody like some of the women they were talking about on stage, who had either died or had forced -- been forced to go through physical and mental trauma because of these bans. it seems like the truth is going to be popping up all around them and in their own lives. abortion is health care, it's not j.d. vance's version of a cat lady who does not want to have a baby. >> it's not going to be long before every single american has been touched by an abortion ban in some way, whether it's because they know someone who has been denied care or because they can't get a pap smear appointment for three months

because all of the ob/gyns have left their counties. there's all of the ripple effects we are seeing as a result of these laws. they don't want to talk about that. they don't want to talk about the real, every day consequences that these have on american women specifically. >> jessica, how is there any way of being able to know how many women have been affected by these draconian laws and rulings? because we hear some of the horrific stories, a woman dying of highly preventable sepsis and denied a very common gynecological treatment. can you shed some light on the stories you heard while reporting on this? >> yeah, you know, i include some of those stories in this book and i think one of the things that's so hard is that we are only hearing a very tiny fraction of those horror stories because people are afraid to come forward, especially when it's a loved one who has died. they know that the right wing

media machine is going to attack that person. we've sheen that happen with the women who have died. we've heard those stories. so there is this real fear about coming forward. the other thing that's happening is that the anti-abortion movement is trying really hard to make it hard to track those deaths, right? and so you ever places like texas where they're putting anti-abortion extremists on the maternal mortality review committee to make sure that the data doesn't reflect how bad these things are. >> the new book is called "abortion: our bodies, their lives and the truths we use to win." it's on sale now. jessica, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning and congratulations on the book. we appreciate it. >> thank you. all right. still ahead, thousands of port workers are entering day two of their strike. we're going to get an update on the negotiations and the possible impact to the u.s. economy from cnbc's andrew ross

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me about foreign policy. >> i have as much experience in the congress as jack kennedy did when he sought the presidency. >> senator, i served with jack kennedy. i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you are no jack kennedy. >> admiral stockdale, your opening statement, please, sir. >> who am i?

why am i here? >> can i call you joe? >> you can call me joe. >> you can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve these important preferences for middle class taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is mathematically possible. it's been done before, it's what we are proposing. >> it has never been done before. >> it has been fwfr b. ever. >> jack kennedy -- >> oh, now you're jack kennedy. >> ronald reagan -- >> the vice president said when asked, well, why didn't you tell anybody? he said because the president wanted people to remain calm. susan, this is important, and i want to add -- mr. vice president, i'm speaking. >> i have to weigh in. >> i'm speaking. >> this was a threat to our democracy in a way that we had not seen and it manifested itself because of donald trump's inability to say -- he is still saying he didn't lose the election. i would just ask that, did he lose the 2020 election?

>> tim, i'm focused on the future. did kamala harris censor americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 covid situation? >> that is -- that is a damning non-answer. >> a look at some of the memorable moments from vice presidential debates throughout the years including last night between governor tim walz and senator j.d. vance. >> the most famous one, geraldine ferraro. >> yeah, look at who won which shows potentially how not impactful the vice presidential debates are on the ultimate election results. >> yeah. >> especially lloyd benson and dan quayle. >> well, right. it's something everybody loves showing that clip. >> yes. demolishing. >> and george h.w. bush just won in an overwhelming landslide there. and then of course you have the same thing with geraldine ferraro, it was a great come

back, and they won one state. so the vice presidential debates, willie, may not have a massive outcome -- a massive impact on the outcome of the presidential race. >> i think that's fair. all i can think about, joe, i think you will appreciate it, too, is the late great phil hartman doing admiral stockdale as we watched that clip. who am i? what am i doing here? >> what am i doing here? >> listen, it was a compelling debate last night between j.d. vance and tim walz. it was rich with substance, which is refreshing. >> yeah. >> not as many insults. they were actually gracious to each other. we're going to get into some of the contradictions that j.d. vance in his previous record that he tried to sort of fanatize last night and basically the last answer that we showed at the end of that is i think the moment that will be remembered from this debate. when a very simple questions posed not by the moderators, but

by governor walz turning to j.d. vance and saying did donald trump lose the 2020 election, yes or no, and j.d. vance do not answer. tells you everything you need to know. >> might have been good if that was asked earlier on. a couple other things, too, we can talk about. jonathan lemire and elise jordan still with us. joining the discussion we have staff writer for "the atlantic" david frum with us and chief white house correspondent for "the new york times" peter baker joins us for this hour. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has more highlights from last night's debate. >> reporter: in their first and only face-off j.d. vance and tim walz squaring off in a largely civil and substantive vice presidential sedate. hours after iran launched nearly 200 missiles at israel the two sparred over the escalating crisis in the middle east. >> iran -- israel's ability to be able to defend itself is absolutely fundamental. steady leadership is going to matter. a nearly 80-year-old donald

trump talking about crowd sizes is not what we need in this moment. >> governor walz, you blamed donald trump who has been the vice president for the last 3 1/2 years and the answer is your running mate, not mine. >> reporter: a relaxed vance challenging walz on america's top issue, the economy. >> you have to play whack-a-mole, you have to pretend that donald trump didn't increase take-home pay, that he didn't deliver lower inflation which he did and you have to defend kamala harris's atrocious economic record. >> reporter: vance and walz focusing most attacks on the opponent's running mate not each other. >> i've got a 17-year-old and he witness add shooting at a community center playing volleyball. those things don't leave you. >> reporter: but turning contentious on immigration, walz morning former president trump for not delivering on his signature campaign pledge. >> he promised you, america, how

easy it will be, i will build you a big beautiful wall and mexico will pay for t less than 2% that have wall got built mexico didn't pay a dime. >> reporter: vance interjected. >> the rules were that you were were going to fact caught. >> reporter: both microphones were cut off. >> your mics are cut. >> reporter: walz appeared to struggle when pressed on his comment that he was visiting hong kong during the teen men protest. he did not arrive until months later. >> i tried to do the best i can but i have not been perfect and i'm a knuckle head at times. >> just to follow up on that, the question was can you explain the discrepancy. >> all i said on this was i got there this summer and misspoke on this. i would just -- that's what i've said. >> reporter: tlrt in the night's most contentious exchange vance refused to acknowledge that donald trump lost the 2020

election. >> did he lose the 2020 election? >> tim, i'm focused on the future. did kamala harris censor americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 covid situation? >> that is a damning -- that is a damning non-answer. >> reporter: walz tacking on this jab about former vice president mike pence's refusal to overturn the election on trump's behalf. >> when mike pence made that decision to certify that election, that's why mike pence isn't on this stage. >> reporter: another sharp contrast on abortion rights. >> we trust women, we trust doctors. >> reporter: vance claimed he never supported a national abortion ban but two years ago he backed a proposed nationwide ban after 15 weeks of pregnancy with some exceptions. and said the republican party had work to do. >> we've got to do so much better of a job at earning the american people's trust back on this issue or they frankly just don't trust us. >> all right. first of all, let's start with you. what did you think of the debate

last night? how did it go? >> i think a lot of elitists thought that vance did a better job. i mean, he's an ivy league guy and he was smooth, like ivy league guys are. >> may i just say better job at lying. he was not telling the truth a lot of the time. >> i will get to that in a second. >> okay. >> but first you look at the poll, the cnn poll, there's a "politico" poll, but the cnn poll showed as far as likability goes, as far as favorable impression, tim walz exploded, 13 points, he's now seen by 59% of americans favorably, only 22% unfavorably. that is -- that's a breath-taking number. j.d. vance improved, he's still under water, though. "politico" poll showed last night also that tim walz easily outdistanced j.d. vance among independents, among the people

that they need to reach. david, a lot of people are talking about the final answer, they should talk about the final answer just like they should talk about donald trump's day of violence, his answer for crime policy, we need a really bad day of violence, but he lied about the abortion ban. you know, j.d. vance supported a national abortion ban. he lied did donald trump supporting obamacare. donald trump repeatedly tried to kill obamacare. just like donald trump bragged about terminating -- terminating roe v. wade. i do want to talk about one other thing, too, that i think democrats have to do better at answering and i'd love to get your input. when they talk about her horrendous record on the economy and biden's horrendous record on the economy, david, we had the best jobless rate in decades, under 4% for the first time over a long period of time in 40 years, the strongest dollar in a half century, the most oil

production in the u.s. history of any country and, of course, the stock market higher than ever before for those people calling harris a socialist. i'm curious your take on those issues, on the lies and the misdirection, but also on how the debate went overall for you. >> i've known j.d. vance for 15 years and in that time i've seen him play many different roles and i've heard him tell many different and contradictory stories about who he is and what he believes. last night he debuted a new role and a new story and that created a problem for the moderators because it's cbs, the most prestigious name in television news. obviously they're not going to ask questions about george soros' plot to replace the white race, they're not going to ask questions about is tim walz plotting to turn all the boys of minnesota into trans, they're not going to ask about why you

repeat putin propaganda, they're going to ask serious questions about the problems. the reason why j.d. vance is on the republican ticket, he made it clear he was going to go along with -- for constitution, but he also has been trafficking in the filthiest muck of american politics, on right wing podcasts, obscure places for the past four years as he reinvented himself to please donald trump. there was a problem in the debate which is when you ask j.d. vance about federal lands, he's really smart and a he's really a good student and will have a answer for you, maybe a different one than the one he would have given 15 minutes or 15 days or 15 months ago, but you will have an answer. you're missing who he is and what kind of person is going to be one cheeseburger away from the presidency should be the trump/vance ticket win. >> peter baker, an issue which didn't come up which has been prominent in the campaign is the way that j.d. vance talked about

women, childless cat lady term comes to mind and springfield, ohio, was brought up in an oblique way, he was able to change the subject from inflicting the kind of pain he's conflicting on his constituents inside the state of ohio. from talking to both sides, from talking to people around washington what is your sense of how this went last night for both sides? >> yeah, look, i think around washington i don't know if they are ee leastists or just professionals, i think a lot of people thought j.d. vance did better because he was smoother, didn't come across as weird which is way that tim walz originally portrayed him in interviews weeks away and walz didn't push the point. he didn't -- he didn't use the words cats and dogs which of course would have raised the question of weirdness a little bit more explicitly. he didn't actually press j.d. vance on why he says it's okay to make up stories in order to draw attention to springfield, ohio, didn't talk about

childless cat ladies, didn't press the issues. came across as you said, willie, that it was just kind of a relatively benign disagreement over something that happened in springfield, ohio, which if he weren't following the story that closely you might not have understood what they were referring to. i think it was a lost opportunity on the part of walz to press the case that he himself had earlier made which is that j.d. vance is out of the mainstream as david frum just talked about because that didn't come across last night in the debate. j.d. vance did a good job of himself, introducing himself, tim walz didn't introduce himself until 40 minutes into the debate. j.d. vance came across as calm and collected. as mika said, he wasn't always reflecting the record correctly. but for those watching who weren't paying attention and there was no fact checking you wouldn't have known that. >> this is difficult to talk about because it includes all of us here and it's the landscape that tim walz is up against in

this trump world that i guess we are all living in. and that is that, you know, i actually as this show has evolved over the course of four hours, i actually think tim walz did really well last night given the landscape and it's not just dealing with a candidate like donald trump and j.d. vance who lie repeatedly daily, and that is a fact. that is not fiction. and the "washington post" even tried to track trump's lies and i think they ran out of paper. but even look at like -- you were talking about how there should be a headline because donald trump said the other day there should be a day of violence to deal with crime in america. what does that exactly mean? have we divide into that? no, we've moved on because there's more, because there's more. we have tim walz getting asked a question about something he misspoke about, clearly made a big mistake, failed, 23 years ago in tin men square about

being there. he's asked about that while there is a candidate on the other side who supports an insurrectionist, someone who wants to pardon convicts, who is a convicted felon, who lies about legal migrants to the point where they are not safe. j.d. vance says unbelievable lies every day and yet they're put together like they're on the same level and i really don't know how you fight against that if you are a candidate in this environment. i think it's almost impossible. >> it's something we've been talking b there's been a flattening of moral equivalency. >> that's what it felt like last night. >> and they should have brought up what walz has said about tiananmen square 23 years ago, but, again -- >> it's legitimate. >> the flattening of it, i saw this last night in pre debate conversations on another network where somebody said, well, you know, tim walz exaggerate bd this or -- 23 years -- or

exaggerate bd that 30 years ago. what you have on stage, willie, you have on stage -- >> 30 minutes ago. >> -- a guy that is lying about his own district, his own state. a guy whose governor, who is in his own party, hasn't stopped lying about people who are legally working in springfield and contributing to the economy. stop spreading the hate. stop right now. the attempt by the media to level things out is pretty remarkable. i think, again, a moral equivalency that just doesn't hold up. again, especially when you've got a guy who last night can't even say -- tell the truth about january 6th. can't tell the truth about the election last year. >> tim walz had to ask him about. >> yeah. and, you know, press doesn't

even put on the front page that donald trump's answer to crime is a day of wanton violence and revolt. >> and let's not forget j.d. vance was asked that question with the framing of his previous comments that he would not have done what mike pence did back in january of 2021. in other words, he would have allowed the process to play out in a way that the constitution does not call for. he would not have stepped into that void and prevented what was coming. so when he was posed that question last night, asked directly did he lose the election, he couldn't answer that for fear of making his boss unhappy and there are so many issues you can point to on this equivalent idea that joe and mika are talking about. we had two days ago donald trump just telling a demonstrable lie that joe biden was not calling the governors of these southern states, then he went on to say that the biden administration is not offering relief from the hurricane and these floods to red districts, the maga

districts. not true at all. just seeking points of division through lies wherever he can find them and we sort of just keep moving on because it's what he does. >> but that's part of what hurts him when it comes to undecided voters, too. because undecided voters aren't thinking in terms of, oh, donald trump is lying, donald trump is this, donald trump is that. they're thinking in terms of chaos and donald trump with comments like that he contributes to the mood of chaos around him, around his campaign. it doesn't -- you know, it's not the trump immediately after he was shot who was saying he wanted reconciliation, he wanted to bring people together. they see the trump who is inflamed and angry. and so i think that's a negative. so in the sense that democrats are held to a higher standard, yes, i think that's because they are appealing to voters who want not to have chaos and not to be lies all the time. >> and, in fact, that moment

last night we've been talking about the 2020 election when governor walz turned to senator vance and said did donald trump lose the election? we heard from some focus groups last night afterwards that that was disqualifying, that he couldn't even say that, yes, he lost the election but we want to win the next one. and the harris campaign already this morning has turned that into an ad. >> it's really rich for democratic lead towers say that donald trump is a unique threat to democracy when he peacefully gave over power. >> he is still saying he didn't lose the election. i would just ask that. did he lose the 2020 election? >> tim, i'm focused on the future -- >> that is a damning non-answer. america, i think you've got a really clear choice of who is going to honor that democracy and who is going to honor donald trump. >> peter baker, that is a quick turn by the campaign to have that ad up and going already and i think we have basically every

debate this cycle dating back to the primaries it felt like the very first question of a debate or serious interview it should be who won the 2020 election. they didn't get there last night until the end but it was by far governor walz's best moment. speak to us about why that resonates. we do know, your colleagues in the "times" are reporting about the legal maneuvers republicans are already taking to challenge election results in various states. they are clearly setting this up again that if this is close, if they can contest it they're not going to accept the idea of donald trump going down in defeat. they're going to fight it and the harris campaign is trying to say, well, that could include more violence. >> yeah, look, i think that's a good reminder, jonathan, about why a debate doesn't matter for 100 minutes, it only matters if you can find a viral moment. so you can have a debate that may or may not have cut very strongly one way or another for much of it, but as long as you come away with that one key moment that you can put out in an ad, put out in a social media

kind of theme, that's what a lot of people will remember the debate about, even if they didn't even watch it. it is important in today's environment to remember that the full texture of a debate really isn't what's important, it's that moment that seems to capture something more meaningful. this is a meaningful question, are they going to accept a loss? donald trump has made very clear he will not accept any election result that he doesn't win. he has made very clear -- he did this last time, too. he told us months before the 2020 election, it didn't just happen on november 26 or after the november election, he told us as early as the spring of 2020 that any election other than his victory would be rigged. he signaled it time and time again, he is doing it again now. i think that is correct you're right, that is in some ways the key issue in in fall is the democracy something that will stand. they have no evidence of any shenanigans, anything that went wrong in the 2020 election but j.d. vance up there he simply said, well, there were some problems, we can agree there were problems. problems weren't, you know, what

donald trump is talking about. what he's talking about is some sort of vast conspiracy that stole an election that didn't happen. i think it's that disconnect from reality that has troubled a lot of voters and it is at the center of what we're about to see in november. we keep saying there's 30 some days left until the election. that's only the beginning. what is critical is what happens after election day. how do they count the votes and what do the campaigns do to establish the credibility of those results and respect the verdict of the voters. >> you know, it's so fascinating. we came in and bumped in with a shot of admiral stockdale asking the question who am i? and here we are years later asking the question who is j.d. vance? david frum had said that he's nothing for 15 years and he's changed dramatically over that time. david, a lot of people don't

remember, i guess things fly by so quickly, a lot of people don't remember j.d. vance went from being, you know, a guy who championed billionaires in san francisco and silicon valley, to becoming a working class hero. j.d. vance went from about media darling and, by the way, a media darling that bathed -- that bathed in the adoration of the "new york times," that bathed in the adoration of npr, that bathed in the adoration of all the most elite media outlets to sell his book and to build his brand, and he topped it all off by suggesting that maybe donald trump was america's hitler. and now we have the working class hero who barbs the same media that he adored and who

adored him just four or five years ago. and he's the attack dog that defends the man who he suggested might be america's hitler, and also said that all christians, the real christians, should vote against. so i ask you who is j.d. vance? >> can i draw attention to another damning non-answer that happened at the very beginning of the debate. hours before the debate began iran fired a barrage of 200 ballistic missiles at israel and that was the first question in the debate, what would you do about that? and j.d. vance had nothing to say because one of the other ways he has reinvented himself is as the leading critic of supporting america's allies, the leading enemy of america's allies. he want to suggest that he will make a carveout -- he wouldn't defend germany, britain, taiwan,

ukraine, but israel will be a special case. when he was asked point-blank he just said israel will do what israel will do. he suggested there wouldn't be from him if he were the voice in the situation room any support. i think people need to understand that when -- although in the second sentence of that same non-answer he said, we will stand by our allies, always remember that when the question comes up of what should we do for our allies if there is a trump administration and j.d. vance is in the situation room his answer will be nothing, abandon them. abandon ukraine, taiwan, germany, britain and abandon israel because it's not going to be a carveout. he campaigns with conspiracists and holocaust deniers. why would he suddenly become a friend of the jewish state in the situation room? "the atlantic agencies" david frum and peter baker, thank you both very much for being on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," the latest from the middle east following iran's massive missile attack on israel. we will have the latest

developments plus we will get wall street's reaction to last night's debate. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin has that for us next. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin has that for us next

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schedule your free gutter inspection today, call 833 leaffilter, or visit leaffilter.com live picture of the white house. 9:30 on the dot in washington, 6:30 as you wake up out west. president biden will visit the carolinas today to survey the damage in the aftermath of hurricane helene as several communities across the southeast grappling with widespread destruction and still the hope of looking for survivors. nbc news correspondent craig melvin has the latest from north carolina. >> reporter: it's been nearly a week now since hurricane helene made landfall, whipping through the southeast, leaving death and destruction in her path. >> everything is gone. >> reporter: crisis, still unfolding. at least ten states struggling mightily as the death toll rises and the search for survivors continues. >> we have seen devastation on a level that we hopefully will never see again. >> reporter: president biden

pledging to commit as many resources as needed for recovery efforts, approving major disaster declarations for areas of florida, north and south carolina, and sending more than 4,500 personnel from the federal level to help. here in asheville many residents still remain trapped in their homes. >> i don't have power, power or food. >> reporter: with so many in dire need of help, they're relying on volunteers to come to the rescue. >> we will take a security team in as well as a rescue team and a med team. >> reporter: we rode along with one of them. jay carter, a retired firefighter, who is taking matters into his own hands with his disaster relief volunteer organization halo relief. >> we have to clear roads to get to them and then try to figure out how to transport them to somewhere safe and get the federal care that they need. >> people seem to be pretty thankful. >> yes, sir. it's the worst days of their lives. >> reporter: jeremy lock and aerial recovery are jumping in, too, offering help on the ground and from the sky.

>> if there's people that are sick, elderly, babies, diabetic, they can get on the helicopter and leave out with us. >> reporter: the view from above post apocalyptic, towns washed away, virtually off the map. in tennessee destruction across the eastern half of the state, bridges and roads closed, cutting off communities with more than 100 people still missing. >> it's evident that something historically horrific has happened here. >> reporter: back in asheville, restaurants like chai ponte lucky enough to have power are paying it forward, preparing food for world central kitchen for those in need. >> this is what it means to be part of a community. >> reporter: the co-owner said about a third of the volunteers walked in off the street offering to help. >> in the middle of darkness you just have to look to the helpers and the light and that's how we get through it. >> nbc's craig melvin with that report. so the impact of hurricane

helene was asked about in last night's debate as it relates to the issue of climate change. here is part of governor tim walz's answer to that question. >> we're also producing more clean energy, so the solution for us is to continue to move forward that climate change is real. reducing our impact is absolutely critical, but this is not a false choice. you can do that at the same time you're creating the jobs that we're seeing all across the country. >> let's bring in the co-anchor of cnbc's "squawk box" and "new york times" columnist andrew ross sorkin. andrew, how is the business community react to go last night's debate? >> well, look, i look every morning the first thing i look at, a lot of people look at polls, i look at the better market, the folks who have actually bet money on the outcome of this election and right now kamala harris is beating donald trump and continues to be beating donald trump, which is a shift from

just obviously as you know several weeks ago. it appears and we will never know, you know, how important a vice presidential debate is, you know, from this kind of voting or -- voting, this kind of betting, i should say, or game k -- gambling on the a election it would appear walz vance had a marginally better night than walz. a lot of calls being made this morning trying to understand frankly how suburban women thought about vance after some of his comments around abortion were made. a know a lot of people on wall street were trying to focus on that. there is a whole sort of ecosystem of people on qualls street who are trying to bet on this and, therefore, trying to do their own polls constantly. i would say that was probably the single biggest issue, not the economic issues that were presented or discussed at all, but in terms of how people are trying to understand how the american people saw this debate.

>> andrew, i'm curious, it's obvious to you, it's obvious to me, it's obvious to people who actually know the facts and read the "wall street journal," financial times, the economist, very obvious that wall street is enjoying it's best year ever. it's obvious that when that question was asked very night it's obvious the answer is when j.d. vance and donald trump suggest that joe biden and kamala harris stood in the way of oil production, hold on a second, oil production hit record highs in the united states. >> record highs. >> not just in the united states, but this year the united states produced more oil than any country in history. i'm just curious how does that square up with the whole, hey, they're socialists when in fact they have a record that every capitalist would like? they just do. if you look at the results -- i mean, we're lapping -- we are lapping china right now economically, we're doing better

than any western democracy, if you look at our economy. again, i'm curious, how does somebody on wall street whose word actually matters -- how do they say that with a straight face? >> i think if you are a thinking person, if you are an intellectually honest person, you look at what is being said and you say -- what is being said by j.d. vance and former president trump as it relates to this issue of oil and gas in the united states and you say, that is not true. that is factually inaccurate. something said that i think that there are a lot of people unfortunately in this country who put blinders on, who don't want to hear the truth, who don't want to believe the truth, and when they hear something told to them over and over and over again and they're predisposed for whatever reason to that person, they start to believe t that's the only -- it's not a rational explanation, but i think when i try to get underneath why there are people who have that view, or they say,

look -- or they say that, yes, we have very high oil production in this country, but it's in spite this have administration. >> right. >> it happened despite all of the efforts to try to prevent it, and what would it have been otherwise? and they create a sort of counterfactual and say we would have had an even more roaring economy. i don't know. i think when you're trying to understand the sort of psyche of folks who kind of come down on that in the way that you described, that's what i think is happening. it's almost an -- dishonesty. >> total dishonesty. >> you're calling a socialist an administration that has record high stock market, higher than when donald trump was president, and record high oil production, more oil production than when donald trump was president. >> you get told that and you make excuses to not believe it. it's just very interesting

approach. day two of the port strike, andrew. >> yes. >> what's the latest with that. >> what are the implications? >> look, all the calls that i've made on this do not suggest this is going to be ending anytime soon. i wish i could tell you otherwise. i don't know if you've seen this videotape that's gone around now of the head of this union, which, by the way, is a trump supporter, saying that he effectively wants to cripple the country, it's shocking. it's surprising it has not been denounced. let's recognize that democrats have historically supported unions, too. i don't want to say -- when i say it's a trump supporter what's going on here, but the language that was used i think is quite remarkable insofar as negotiating on behalf of these workers. you want all workers to make more money to the extent they can. by the way, many of these people are making $170,000 plus and a lot of the debate is around, as we discussed, automation and how much can be automated. i don't know where this is going

to go but i do think that this is likely this is going to persist for some period of time and as we discussed the costs are real. we could start to see it filter into the economy in meaningful ways. there is some discussion on wall street now actually as to whether jay powell who talked about lowering interest rates will have to try to lower them quicker and faster to try to balance whatever kinds of supply chain shocks we could have. having said that i think we've learned that that may very well be in the stake. that supply chain shots you can't balance them out necessarily by lowering interest rates. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. coming up right here on "morning joe," the very latest out of the middle east after iran launched its largest ever attack on israel. we will discuss what the u.s. is now saying and what israel is vowing to do next. "morning joe" will be right back. to do next. "morning joe" will be right back

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iran carried out a massive missile attack against israel yesterday, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the latest on the attack and aftermath. >> reporter: as israel assesses the damage this morning from iran's biggest attack ever against the country, one thing is clear, it could have been so much worse. iran launched around 200 bus-sized missiles at israel, most were shot down by israeli and american air defenses. a few slipped through the net. but despite all the iranian firepower, only one person was killed, a palestinian man, a victim of falling debris near the jordanian border. as israelis brace for the iranian assault, adding to the chaos of the moment, two gunmen opened fire at a light rail stop in tel aviv, killing at least seven israelis in an apparently unrelated attack. moments later, the iranian missiles started streaming in.

we saw it unfold as missiles through over lebanon toward israel. while there is a lot of activity in the sky here as well i think you can see some of these flashes of light. so this is a massive campaign, a massive amount of air defenses. for about an hour it looked like a ballistic missile fourth of july as israeli and american air defenses sprung into action at high altitude. there could be enormous consequences for iran, enormous consequences for the entire region based on what is happening here. iran said the attack was its response to israel's assassination of a hamas leader in tehran and the leader of hezbollah in beirut. as some cheered in tehran, iran said if israel responds, the operation will be repeated with much higher magnitude. prime minister netanyahu says israel will respond and the

pentagon is expecting it. president biden expressed full american support for israel. >> attack appears to have been defeat add and ineffective. >> reporter: now the entire middle east is on edge, expecting an israeli reprisal, the only questions are how severe it will be and when. >> nbc's richard engel reporting there. joining us now former israeli ambassador to the united states michael oren, senior fellow at the carnegie endowment for peace careen saj a for and barry mccaffrey an nbc news military analyst. ambassador, i will start with you. it remains amazing given the scope of that attack there were no casualties in israel thanks to the iron dome and the support of the american military as well. you have said israel has no choice but to respond. what do you believe is an appropriate response? >> hey, willie. good morning. it's a tough morning, very much, and israel hasn't fully

recovered from what it went through yesterday. in addition to these rocket attacks and my family, my grandkids are all in bomb shelters, the horrendous terrorist attack in jaffa literally on my street where people ran into my building to get cover. this is intensely personal. israel has to respond. it has to respond painfully for the iranians and massively. it can't be tit for tat, it has to be more than that. the iranians have to internalize if they commit this aggression against the jewish state we're going to respond and exact a very painful price for them. it's the only way. to this point iran has not paid a price for any of this. they're behind all the bars in the middle east, it's iran and its proxies, hamas, the houthis, syria and iraq, iran has to pay that price. we very much appreciate the support we receive from the united states from president biden, from the u.s. military in the area knocking down these missiles with our defenses, but at the end of the day we also believe that the united states has to exact a price.

>> what does that price look like? there's been some talk of attacking military targets, perhaps going after the nuclear program. do you think the nuclear program of iran should be on the table? >> definitely on the table. o everything has to be on the table, nothing can be immune including the ayatollahs themselves are on the table. >> as targets? >> as targets. just like hassan nasrallah was, the head of hezbollah. he was under 60 feet of concrete. israel does not have b 1s, b 2s that can drop a 50,000 pound bomb, we don't have that. we have small planes. but you see with the type of technology we have, the coordination and our pilots we can even get attacks to hezbollah. >> general mccaffrey, you know the political and the military realities on the ground in the middle east as well as anyone. the ambassador just said that iran has to pay a, quote, painful and massive price.

first of all, what are the risks of that? what are the risks of a regional war? and what would your recommendation be if you were advising president biden right now? >> well, i think of the biden administration appropriately is still arguing to prevent a regional war. though we've seen a relentless work by secretary of state tony blinken and lloyd austin, the defense secretary, to try to argue people back off the edge. now, having said that, having said that, this is the second iranian mass attack on the state of israel. these are flash bang times of 10 to 12 minutes from the ground hitting in israel. many of them are getting through. these are two-ton warheads. it is unarguable that the israelis cannot tolerate living under this situation.

at the same time, they've got 80,000 civilians that have been run out of their homes in the northern part of israel, facing a threat of well over 100,000 missiles, held by hezbollah, and maybe 60,000 fighters. fortunately, the idf has shredded hezbollah's chain of command. but they cannot eliminate this threat with just commando raids and air power, so they've brought up now a third israeli division. at some point, they've got to go into south lebanon and try and eliminate the missile threat. these are painful days for israel. they have every right to consider every option, but the israeli air force does not have the power to eliminate the nuclear program in iran. if the u.s. air power went after them, it would take 30 to 90 days to knock them out. what the israelis can do is set

garg island on fire and make a massive impact on the iranian economy. the follow-on consequences are hard to gauge. these are days of great peril. >> right. so you know, general, unlike a lot of people that are running my former party, i'm a conservative. so i hope for the best, but i always plan for the worst. i and a lot of people took their eye off the ball in 2003. were overly optimistic going into iraq, and we didn't plan for the worst case scenario, and we paid. i want you right now, if you can, talk to our policy leaders. and i completely agree with what you've said about israel, but give our policy leaders watching today the worst-case scenario if a regional war breaks out. >> well, first of all, a

regional war will not involve u.s. ground combat forces. the israelis do not need our divisions on the ground. there's a massive amount of u.s. air and naval power in the region. it's quite possible that if israelis' existence was at stake that we would directly enter the war against iran. so i think that's a message of deterrence by the biden administration to the iranians, and they'll follow through on it. but at the end of the day, you know, if we ignite a regional war, if the strait of hormuz is closed off, if the red sea continues to be interdicted by this small band of terrorists in yemen, if we see a continuation of gaza destroyed a lot of hamas killed or eliminated as a threat, but no pan era peace keeping force that's willing to intervene and replace the idf in

terms of security, then we're going to see a period of enormous peril with economic consequences to the globe. so that's what's at stake. we have no option but to stand behind israel, a democracy, a capitalistic economy, we're going to stay with the israelis on this one. >> kareem, you're an expert on iran. let's talk about their perspective now. give us your sense as to why their response yesterday looked the way it did. a significant number, though it turned out to be largely ineffective, and what must the calculations be in teheran right now as to how to respond to what israel's inevitable response would be because a regional war could end up a regime change. >> this is a regime in iran which has always been committed to its ideology, but also its survival. and i think that calculation yesterday was that over the

course of the last six weeks, israel had carried out some pretty significant operations against iran and iran's proxies. they've assassinated the leader of hamas, taken out hezbollah's top leadership, and when iran didn't react to those provocations they probably felt they were projecting weakness and vulnerability and would invite even more israeli action, so they took action yesterday as our colleagues said. in my view, it was a much more significant action that they took last april, and it's going to warrant major israeli retaliation and i am not sure if the regime in teheran is embraced for what's about to come to them. >> let's talk about what that could look like, and their hold over their own people in terms of is this something they're going to have to perpetuate this fight in order to just stay in power at home? >> this regime, the islamic republic of iran is a late stage

soviet union. it's a regime which is idealogically and increasingly economically bankrupt, and they want to have external hostility in order to justify internal repression. this is something we have to be very mindful of. at the end of the day, my view is there's never going to be lasting peace and stability in the middle east until we have a government in iran that pursues its national interests rather than revolutionary ideology, but there are no quick fixes here in terms of either israeli or u.s. military action that will bring about such a government. i think we have to really be mindful of the last two decades of history in the middle east here. >> ambassador, let's talk a little bit about israeli politics. how confident are you that bibi netanyahu is the leader to best serve the interests of israel and israel's continued existence?

>> before i answer that question, it's a great question. i want to say i agree with everything that was just said here, and i think there's only one small correction. from israel's perspective, we are in a regional war. we have been in a regional war since october 7th. hezbollah shooting at northern israel, 10,000 rockets starting on october 8th. 100,000 israelis homeless, being shot at by the houthis in yemen, militias in iraq and syria. we are in a regional war. i understand the great reluctance on the part of the united states, and american leaders get dragged into the war. we're fighting a war for national survival, and that has to be said here. as for bibi netanyahu, he's going to go down in the polls, this is the nature of politics. my deep feeling is that were he to be replaced by any other israeli leaders, and benny gantz, they would have almost exactly the same policies. even the people that are protesting against netanyahu in the streets and there have been hundreds and thousands of people protesting in the streets are in

favor of responding militarily both to hezbollah and iran. this is not chicago 1968. these aren't antiwar demonstrations or anti-netanyahu demonstrations, many people in the streets are going to pick up weapons and go into the reserves and fight that war. they understand that. israelis distinguish between words of choice and no choice. this is almost an entire consensus that this is a war of no choice. >> former israeli ambassador to the united states, michael oheren. senior fellow at the carnegie endowment, and retired four star army general, barry mccaffrey, thank you very much for your analysis and insight this morning, and that does it for us this morning. we'll see you tomorrow. ana cabrera and jose diaz-balart pick up the coverage in two minutes. n two minutes.