forcibly separated from him. we are talking about nursing infants that were taken away from their numbers. numbers. you can agree that there's a problem with immigration but the way to solve these problems is not to beat up on people. >> it's a compassionate film, i it's an important film. i'm grateful to the two of you, both for making it and being with us this morning. president biden is in florida right now where within the hour he is set to give remarks after meeting with first responders and local residents affected by hurricane milton. we will continue to keep you abreast of his movements on the

next hour of velshi which begins right now. good morning, sunday, october 13, 23 days remaining until election day. a brand-new poll released by nbc news just this morning, has harris and trump in an absolute deadlock, the two candidates tied at 48% each. that result means that trump has erased the post debate bump that harris received last month when she jumped ahead of trump by five points. harris's campaign knows they've got a lot of work to do and

hope to shore up support in the states known as the blue wall. these are the states that offer harris one of her best paths to victory. that's why they have multiple campaign events planned every single day during the coming week. one of the goals at this stage, is to reach out to male voters, nbc news poll shows that 55% of women back harris compared to 41% of men, the reverse is true for trump who received the support of 56% of men and only 40% of the women surveyed. republicans have struggled with women voters since the supreme court overturned roe v wade in 2022. trump and the gop have never

been able to recover from the erosion of support from women in fact it's only been t exacerbated by the numerous controversial statements that trump's running mate, jd vance ' has said which helps to explain why trump's campaign is putting significant effort into reaching out to young male voters instead. the republican nominee has made appearances on podcasts and youtube shows that are popular with young man and also gotten help from a pro trump super park started by the richest man in the world, elon musk. they have put out ads targeting young man -- men and they also made headlines when they begin offering $47 payouts for whoever can get a registered r swing state voter to sign an online petition pledging to support the first and second amendment. the tesla ceo initially backed florida governor ron desantis and was

previously hesitant to endorse the former president, but now one of trump's highest backers. last weekend he made a surprise appearance with trump in pennsylvania were issued her attempted to assassinate trump over the summer. mask has been parroting a lot of trump's talking points. like trump, musk has taken up the habit of calling harris a communist even posting an ai generated image of the vice president in communist garb and falsely claiming that harris wells to be a communist dictator on day one.

as result of the growing friendship, trump has said if elected, he would create a so- called government efficiency commission and he would tap musk to lead it. trump said the commission's goal would be to conduct complete financial audits of the government and make recommendations for drastic reforms. musk's political shift is due in part to the scrutiny that his various businesses have faced under the biden administration. over the past two years, multiple government agencies have taken actions against his companies. including a lawsuit filed by the justice department alleging that spacex discriminated against refugees and asylum seekers in its hiring process. separately the epa found spacex violated the clean water act when it released pollutants into its bodies of water near its texas facility.

the national highway traffic administration had an ongoing investigation since 2021 and two teslas self driving mechanism and the list goes on. musk stands to personally and professionally benefit from his alliance with trump who has similarly complained about the government's oversight and it may also serve musk and his partners and peers in the community. sheila, musk and his companies are not the only ones who have faced scrutiny from government agencies, one of the points that roger made is the biden administration is using existing laws, not new laws, to try and regulate the tech industry and this is not ry sitting well with a lot of tech

titans, particularly elon musk. >> i think ultimately a lot of wealthy business people, they end up voting their bank accounts rather than their conscience. and a lot of the support that we've seen emerge from trump from the tech sector, very wealthy business moguls, it stems from the fact that many of them have faced really intense scrutiny over the last few years. and one area where that has been you know, very lively is the antitrust rome where we have a very sort of aggressive forward thinking ftc chair, although some of the big antitrust cases that we've seen unfold were launched during the trump administration, you know, many of the prosecutions and a lot of the progress is occurred

under biden. it's not that shocking to see people like musk and other big tech moguls you know, suggesting all of that should be scrapped, it's hurting innovation and basically making deals with trump that he will keep the government hands off of their business interest. >> elon musk was not always a trump supporter or a loyalist. he supported ron desantis as opposed to trump but boy, he has become one seriously enthusiastic trump fan boy. what do you make of this alliance between musk and trump in the interest that they potentially share? >> i mean the biggest interest they have is making audiences like them, that is the biggest commonality, even beyond i would say, they're sort of like businessman appearances like on the one hand, yes, both of them

are given way too much credit for being savvy businessman, for products that they didn't really create, like elon musk didn't make twitter, he didn't make tesla, he earned his money being in early at paypal and cashing out and investing in and buying other companies, trump, real estate mobile for who the last several decades has been more of a brand then really a businessman, he's been licensing his name out to products which he is still doing. but both of them have this need to be liked, trump, at his rallies, really is the same as elon musk on twitter, looking for adoration, for people to be applauding the things they say u and when they get that positive feedback about the very negative things they are

saying, they lean into it. i remember trump in 2016, telling the crowd he didn't like the phrase drain the swamp but since they like it he will keep repeating it, elon musk, he was not always the person we saw but when he joined twitter and started to make jokes that bond and certain people started to bump him up he was like those people are great, i want to do what they like and that has drawn him further and further to the right. >> by now people are familiar with the silicon valley archetype of the disruptor, to some degree, i'm wondering whether these guys look at trump and say that he is the politics disruptor and something feels attractive about the antiestablishment nature of donald trump. anything to that? >> i think a lot of them, you know, the tech founders and ceo, they like to think of

themselves as mavericks, who upended the economy in the way that we do things. ultimately, they don't have a lot of other interests or accomplishments in common with trump, but what trump is very family doing is he is taking advantage of these forces that we've been seeing in the economy for some time which om have been indicating that a lot of men particularly working- class white men of a certain age are struggling and have been left behind by some of the economic advances, you know we , had the depths of despair, that phrase emerged to refer to a particular cohort of men who were dying prematurely of overdoses and suicides and since then we've learned younger men are also struggling, they are not doing as well in school, more women are enrolling in college, they are taking longer according to

a pew poll to achieve independence, there are more young adult men still living with her parents, so i think trump is doing something cynical but quite clever, he is promising these men who maybe felt a little frustrated seeing other groups advance while they themselves are floundering and he said i will restore your primacy in our economy, the white male macho guy, you are going to be restored to the center of american society and that is obviously clicking. >> there's another aspect here, at the end of the day, another thing that trump and people like musk have in common, these tech billionaires, there's a level of accountability that no one wants to face up to, he is trying to create a government

that doesn't have him d accountable. but the tech industry has not faced accountability because we don't have a sort of regulations in place to do that, and that suits elon musk and the like just fine. >> absolutely, and what we are seeing is a new chapter of an old story. where, this is a new version of the gilded era, they have shifted society, they had a product that upended the way that americans live their lives, that were seen as indispensable. the difference now sbeing that with the amount of reach that t people have, you don't have to necessarily buy a newspaper to reach x number of people or a magazine, you can buy twitter like elon musk did and the deep end, cutting irony of the fact that these tech pros are using their positions of wealth and

power to try to say to disaffected young men, if you vote for this man, he will make things better, is that at the crux of a lot of the issues is the fact that these man's are a chelating wealth and power and not sharing it with people like the fact that so many of the industries they support like the people who are supporting trump from the silicon valley space are all in on ai and they are all in on the sort of programs and this things that are reducing the amount of jobs from people who may not have a college education, they are literally creating industries that will pay people poorly, then turn around and say oh, you are paid poorly, i'm sorry the government did this to you. and that is such a deeply cynical way of operating and unfortunately it seems like it's convincing some young men,

the question is, will it convince enough to actually defy the history and show up to vote? >> thanks to both of you. president biden is in florida, here he is actually, this is live right now, he's in st. petersburg and expected to meet with first responders and local officials and will give remarks within the hour. harris is on the move in north carolina where she will hold a campaign rally. during a speech in detroit a few days ago trump repeatedly insulted the city telling folks

that their city have become decimated and looked more like a third world city and then he said this -- >> i enjoy what i do and i love this, i could be the most beautiful ocean on the sand exposing my really beautiful body, so beautiful, to the sun and the surf, skin cancer, right, to the sun and the surf, all over the world, or i could be in detroit with you and i'd rather be in detroit with you. . ♪ ♪ this one is for you. speaker: who's coming in the driveway? speaker: dad. dad, we missed you.

daddy, hi. speaker: goodness. my daughter is being treated for leukemia. [music playing] i hope that she lives a long, great, happy life and that she will never forget how mom and daddy love her. saint jude-- maybe this is what's keeping my baby girl alive. [music playing] narrator: you can join the battle to save lives by supporting st. jude children's research hospital. for just $19 a month, you'll help us continue the life-saving research and treatment these kids need now and in the future. speaker: cancer makes me feel angry, like not in the feel on the outside, just the inside. i'm angry at it. speaker: when your kid is hurting and there's nothing you can do about it, that's the worst feeling in the world. [music playing] narrator: 1 in 5 children diagnosed with cancer in the us

will not survive. speaker: those that donate to st. jude, i hope that you will continue to give. they have done so much for me and my family. [music playing] narrator: join with your credit or debit card for only $19 a month, and we'll send you this st. jude t-shirt, or, for a limited time only, join for $39 a month to receive this exclusive st. jude jacket you can proudly wear to show your support. speaker: are you ready to go have some fun? speaker: yeah. speaker: when we came here, we didn't know what tomorrow would hold. st. jude showed us that tomorrow, there's hope for our little girl to survive. narrator: let's cure childhood cancer together. please donate now. [music playing] hey, scott. this stuff's perfect for fall, right? yep! it feeds your lawn now to strengthen roots

all winter for a better lawn next spring. how do you know all of this? says it right there on the bag. yes, it does. download the my lawn app today for lawn care tips and customized plans. feed your lawn. feed it. san francisco is in crisis and we need real experienced leadership. we need mark farrell.

our interim mayor who got things done. who showed we can clear tent encampments, fight crime, and address the drug crisis. who will make the tough choices for our city's future. "i'm mark farrell. i'm running for mayor because san francisco deserves better." "i'm ready to deliver that change on day one." mark farrell. a proven leader with the experience we need. a new supreme court scandal yet another bombshell report has surfaced this one focusing on the trump administration handling of allegations of sexual misconduct against justice brett kavanagh.

the report titled unworthy of reliance, details the trump's white house efforts to thwart the fbi's probe into the supreme court pick. the sexual assault allegations themselves were first raised in 2018 by the law professor, christine ford, she accused kavanagh of sexual misconduct in the 1980s. later, two additional women came forward with similar claims. this report found the trump white house exercised total control over the investigation including preventing the fbi from following up on numerous leaves and blocking interviews with key witnesses. the trump administration also allegedly instructed the fbi not to use its tip line instead, forwarding tips that were intended for law

enforcement directly to the white house . according to the report, if anything, the white house may have used the tip line to steer fbi invaders -- investigators away from damaging information. unsurprisingly the fbi's sham investigation failed to uncover cooperating evidence and the senate confirmed kavanagh. americans were hoodwinked to secure the nomination of an extremist who would go on to become part of a right wing block of justices. this includes recent decisions that we can the authority of federal agencies tasked with things like education, consumer rights and education. he also ruled to expand presidential immunity. any experts warn this decision

will one day be regarded as a pivotal moment that set the stage for another coup, one that trump is currently laying the groundwork for. this latest report only adds to a series of ethics scandals that have rocked the supreme court, deepening its crisis of legitimacy as approval ratings sink to the store close, these include revelations that justice thomas and alito failed to disclose lavish gifts from billionaires. the majority has resisted calls to regulate itself. justice thomas ignored calls to recuse himself in cases related to the riot despite reports that his wife was involved. justice alito also chose not to recuse himself from cases related to january 6th after it was revealed that a flag associated with election denial was displayed outside his virginia home in the days following the right. lawmakers and legal experts warn that this extremist block

on the supreme court has accrued enormous power at the expense of other branches of government. this term, the supreme court will preside over several cases affecting millions of americans from overtime wages to medicare reimbursement, to transgender rights meanwhile the unchecked power grab are leading to growing demand for reforms. in july the biden administration proposed a package to reform the supreme court included an enforceable code of conduct, 18 year term when it's -- limits, the senate judiciary committee advanced a bill penned by my next guest, the democratic senator white

house, the bill includes a binding ethics code. next month, the elections could break efforts to reform the highest court. we are witnessing a minority takeover of our democracy, the supreme court has stood by in the face of antidemocratic actions and allowed partisan gerrymander's and allowed states to impose burdens on voting and the court has intervened in the political process. the only reform that fixes this problem now is court expansion. that could give us a majority of justices who would defend democracy instead of dissipating in them. i've viewed expansion as a last resort, but we may be at the point of breaking that glass now. court expansion may be the only

thing that will save our democracy for the next generation. for more on this i'm joined by sheldon whitehouse of rhode island. he released a report revealing the trump white house actively sabotaged an active investigation into multiple sexual assault allegations against red kavanagh. thank you for being with us this morning. >> thanks for having me on. >> in real time, many of us wondered why the fbi is not able to dig up basic information around the allegations that were swirling around brett kavanagh during his confirmation process. you told us what we thought to be true. trump used his office to protect another powerful man in government. and now kavanagh has used his office to protect trump. tell us about the consequences that you've learned.

>> there were two big lies that the american people were told, and two dirty tricks. the big lies where the president saying the fbi had free reign to investigate where and who made wanted one that was completely not true, the white house controlled every iota of the investigation. and the effect was that there was procedure that the fbi was following and you can count on them to do the right thing because they are doing this investigation quote, by the book. it turns out they had no free reign and there was no book for a supplemental background investigation. there's no procedure other than do what the white house tells you. so those were the big lies, the dirty tricks were to stop the fbi from looking at cooperation, and have republican senators in great numbers say we can't believe her because there was no cooperation without anybody knowing that the cooperation had been discarded as an avenue

of investigation and the last was this tip line that produced dozens of truly credible tips, credible enough to be flagged by the fbi for the white house but they never got a signal from the white house to investigate any of them so at the end of the tip line expert, there were zero steps taken. >> senator, you understand these things better than i do, it seems wild that the fbi would have information that the white house could veto them pursuing, in the pursuit of an investigation. is there anything normal about that or is it as crazy as it sounds to me? >> it's a little bit crazy but reflects the rarity of the circumstance, this is not the fbi acting as a law enforcement agency. this is not the fbi acting as

the background investigation agency where it has regular procedures. this is when there's a supplemental background investigation. you remember dr. christine blasey ford's allegations came up late in the process after all that was done. this was done under the rules for a supplemental background investigation which both the white house and the department of justice and the fbi declined to inform the american people, it meant there are no rules, the white house makes every decision and the decision was do exactly what we say and no more, no cooperation, no tip line investigation. according to a usa today poll, going back to august, americans are overwhelmingly in favor of reforming the supreme court. that has many flavors but something needs to be done. 76% of americans support a binding ethics code including 70% of republicans and 89% of

democrats. this should be partisan at all so why are we not seeing some of these reforms including a binding ethics code happening already? >> i think because there is a linkage between some of the divisions that are coming out of these justices on the supreme court and the billionaire gifts program that is giving them lifestyles of the rich and famous, vacations, paying for kids that they take care of, their tuition, taking care of their mom and paying the rent. all of this stuff piles up and it's really obscene, but i think it also affects the judgments of the court. i think republicans whose political financing comes heavily from the same right wing billionaire elite that was

behind capturing the court and running the billionaire gifts program, they are being told don't you dare mess up our situation here. so they won't do what is obvious. literally, every official in this country, local, county, state, other federal, everybody is subject to some basic fact- finding if there is an allegation made about their misconduct. there are only nine people in government anywhere who have literally no responsibility to either tell the truth about what they did or have neutral fact-finding and that is the nine justices of the supreme court. it just is an untenable situation. >> to be clear, no one is suggesting that accountability should be about their rulings. we are not trying to meddle with the independence of the judiciary, as much as you hate their rulings, we are talking

about ethics. we are not talking about the ability to criticize supreme court rulings. >> correct. there's a clear break between a court in its adjudicative role and the administrative role and every single one of the 50 state supreme court's have figured out a way on the administrative side to check on the ethics of their supreme court justices. so it's an easy lay down hand to do the same thing at the supreme court, they just don't want to. >> but apparently the rest of us do. someone will have to win this showdown. >> we are going to win. >> moments ago vice president harris arrived in greenville, north carolina in front of a campaign rally earlier today.

you are watching velshi on msnbc. msnbc. ngredien that start working on contact and lasts up to 8 hours.

the first time you try bounce, it hits you. your laundry feels way fresher, softer. so you start to wonder. if i put a sheet of bounce on the finance guy, will it make him softer? bounce can't do it all but for better laundry, ♪ put a sheet on it with bounce. ♪ han is 22 years old. he's not just a pet, he really is a part of our family. knowing that he's getting good nutrition, that's a huge relief for me and my dad. (sings) old bean piglet head yes that is your name. if you saw his piglet head you would say the same. toot toot.

president biden walking over to the podium in saint pete beach florida as the states gulf coast tries to recover from getting battered by recent storms. we will listen in as he starts speaking. let's listen in, president biden in saint keep beach. >> i'm here in florida for the second time in two weeks, and surveying the damage of another catastrophic storm. hurricane milton. thankfully the storm's impact

was not as cataclysmic as predicted but on top of the two before it, it just seems to be getting worse. but for some individuals, it was cataclysmic. all of those folks that not only lost their homes but were partly those folks that lost their lives, lost family members, lost all of their personal belongings, entire neighborhoods were flooded and millions are without power. earlier this morning, i did an aerial tour of st. petersburg and the battered coastline. i flew over tropicana field where the tampa bay rays play and the roof was almost completely off but thank god, not many people were injured. i spoke with first responders, working around the clock and i met with small business owners here, and homeowners, who have

taken a real beating, these back to back storms, and they are heartbroken and exhausted, and the expenses are piling up. i know, from experience how devastating it is to lose your home. several years ago my home was struck by lightning, we were out of the home for seven months while it was being prepared. the thing i was most concerned about was not just the home, it was all those things, all of those pictures that i saved that my daughter had drawn when she was little, all of the family photographs, all of the things that really matter. folks, the fact is when you lose your wedding ring, family keepsakes, things that can't be replaced, sometimes, in my own experience, that's the part that hurts the most. i'm standing next to the mayor

and chairwoman peters, both of their homes were damaged, the mayor's home flooded, family vehicles, washed away, the county chairs home, had experienced significant damage in the past two storms, just finished rebuilding and settling back in and now they have to do it all over again. both their families lost precious personal belongings but they have stepped up not only looking out for themselves but to help their neighbors, that is the resilience of the people of west florida. i want to thank them and all the public officials who suffered losses because of the storm but are out there doing things to help other people who have serious losses. it matters. the american people should know the sacrifices they are making. you know, they've been

steadfast partners as well. we've been in frequent contact and it's in moments like this where we come together to take care of each other not as democrats or republicans but as americans. americans who need help and americans who would help you if you were in the same situation. we are one united states. it also came to talk about the progress we've made together. it's a whole of government effort, from state and local to fema, to the us coast guard, the energy department, environmental protection agency, just to name a few. fema has delivered 1.2 million meals, over 300,000 liters of water, 2 million gallons of fuel and so far, we've installed 100 satellite terminals, so families can contact their loved ones to make sure everything is okay and reach out for help as well. so far, we've opened 10

disaster recovery centers in florida with more to come so people can have one stop to meet with officials and get the help that is available to them. you can also go online to disaster assistance.gov, or call one 800 621 f ema. after i signed the disaster declaration, more than 250,000 floridians registered for help. the most in any single day in the history of this country. 250,000. i know you are concerned about the debris removal and it is obvious why. we are working with partners to clear roads and to get the wreckage off of property so

more folks can return home. that is a priority for me. power has also been restored to over 2 million people in a matter of days. and thanks to tens of thousands of power workers from 43 states and canada, working nonstop even more people have power restored sooner. i'm proud to announce today, $612 million to six new cutting edge projects to support communities impacted by hurricanes helene and milton. that includes $47 million for gainesville utilities and another $47 million for florida power and light. this funding will not only restore power but it'll make the power systems stronger and

more capable. in fact, we've been able to restore power quicker because of critical infrastructure investments that were made to harden the grid, for folks at home, the grid means the electrical power system -- >> all right, president biden in florida, he is surveying the damage and determining what more federal help can be delivered to the state of florida. we will be right back. right ba. front and rear. [drink slurp and splat] [scream] seat protector to save the seats. they're all yours! -we're here! -hey, i knew you were comin'... so i weatherteched the car! -can we get ice cream? -we can now. order your premium american made products

at wt.com. my life is full of questions... how do i clean an aioli stain? use tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. why do we even buy napkins? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. —do crabs have eyebrows? —except that one. for all of life's laundry questions... it's got to be tide. sleep more deeply and wake up rejuvenated. purple mattresses exclusive gel flex grid for all of life's laundry questions... draws away heat, relieves pressure and instantly adapts. sleep better. live purple. visit purple.com or a store near you today

just over three weeks until election day, voter registration is closed in about half of the states. check your states registration deadline. early voting has begun in a handful of states. mail-in ballots are being sent

out. the election is underway. if you are a voter in virginia, you will receive a ballot that looks like this, the choices will include kamala harris and tim walz, trump and jd vance and for other candidates including jill stein, cornell west, names you might not be as familiar with. let's talk about these third- party options. the majority of americans are dissatisfied with the two-party system and they want other options but historically, third- party presidential candidates have not been that successful in america. in 1992, texas billionaire ross perot ran as an independent against george hw bush and bill clinton. he ran on a platform focused on economic reform as well as political and congressional reform. he ran a serious, national campaign and at one point he was the leading candidate and a pole and participated in all

three national debates on stage with clinton and bush and ran ads and made speeches and in the end, he won nearly 19 million votes. that's nearly 19% of the popular vote overall. ross perot made the strongest third-party run since 1912, and he still didn't win one single electoral vote. of course clinton ended up winning the election. many republicans at the time blamed ross perot for the loss. weeks into the election day, the 2024 race is tight and getting tighter, lest we forget president biden won four years ago by winning key swing states by less than 1%. trump did the same thing in 2016. and this race is shaping up to be just as close in an entirely

similar fashion. according to a recent wall street pole, trump and harris are within two points of one another in six out of seven swing states. that's well within the margin of error, nationally, they are tied. this election may be decided by a handful of voters. in some cases by uncommitted and third-party voters. no matter your number 1 issue, no matter your key motivation for voting or not, understand that your voice, your vote, it's critical, at least this time around, and there are really, only two choices before you. before you. da mmy a “finance bro? ” she switched careers to make money for your weddings. ooh! penny stocks are blowing up. sweetie, grab your piggy bank, we're going all in. let me ask you. for your wedding, do you want a gazebo and a river? uh, i don't... what's a gazebo?

something that your mother always wanted and never got. or...you could give these different investment options a shot. the right money moves aren't as aggressive as you think. i'm keeping the vest. hey, scott. this stuff's perfect for fall, right? yep! it feeds your lawn now to strengthen roots all winter for a better lawn next spring. how do you know all of this? says it right there on the bag. yes, it does. download the my lawn app today for lawn care tips and customized plans. feed your lawn. feed it. (vo) at verizon every phone can be the new iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence. for lawn care tips and customized plans. wow phones are going to be flying to verizon. at verizon new and existing customers can get iphone 16 pro, and a new ipad all on us. only on verizon.

joining me now is the syndicated radio talk show host thom hartmann, on friday, the democrats released an ad against longtime green party leader jill stein saying a vote for stein is a vote for trump. jill stein is pulling at about 1% but in some of these battleground states particularly michigan, that could be decisive.

>> this is exactly what happened, and good morning, by the way. this is what happened in 2016. in michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania, the number of votes that jill stein got in each one of these three states was greater than trump's margin of victory. so assuming most of those votes would have gone for hillary clinton, had she not been on the ticket, clinton would have become president. she's kind of bragging, we will teach the democrats a lesson. apparently the lesson is, we like to have trump for president. >> dean, harris continues to struggle to secure michigan's very large muslim and arab voters, some of whom are still concerned that she hasn't done enough to articulate what she would do about the humanitarian

crisis in gaza, harris has called for a cease-fire, she continues to voice support for israel. but voters can only vote, all they could do is cast a ballot or not. >> there were two recent polls, one by the arab american institute, usually democratic senate -- presidential -- it's a different community but there's an overlap, this time it's neck and neck and you have jill stein among arab americans getting big support. these polls show that things can change, and they ask people questions and if vice president would talk about a policy change, that's what people want to hear. i will enforce the foreign

assistance act, that's already a law, saying you will apply it to everyone we give weapons to. we will no longer protect israel completely, if they violate the law, they will be sanctioned. it's not turning your back on israel. it would animate people to come out for her based on the pulley and i spoke to the founder of uncommitted, their top priority is to defeat trump. some of them are not going to vote for harris. she can get them, though. >> i come from canada where we have multiple parties, there some countries that have too many, italy has been a great example, israel, where you can't secure governance when everyone's got a minority, that said, i'd like more political parties in america but our structure is built around to parties and that would need a

certain amount of change. at the moment, voting for a third-party candidate can only be thought of as a protest vote. >> absolutely, the problem is we got our system of voting in 1789 and it was the first time it had been done in thousands of years and they didn't quite get it right. we have what's called winner take all elections and when you have that kind of system, you end up with a two-party system. there's no way around it. the solution was,, it was developed in 1861 by john stuart mill, where he proposed proportional representation where say if your party gets 12% of the vote they get 12% of the seats in parliament. the result of that is you can have multiple political parties and then you have to form coalitions and work things out and there's a lot of negotiating but it's far more

democratic and it opened things up. the only way to do that in the united states would be to have a constitutional amendment which is not going to happen. the second way would be to have an instant run on voting program which the green party has been pushing for for years. we don't have it nationally, so without instant runoff voting nationally, anytime you vote for a third party, you are basically voting against the party that you feel closest to. >> and that is the interesting part. for better or worse, the people are possibly feeling closer ideologically to the democratic party and they are thinking this is a protest vote but it may just be a spoiler. are people able to make that distinction when you talk to them about it? >> they are. and my plea, to my fellow democrats who are speaking to people who are concerned about

the policy in gaza, don't tell them, trump will be worse, we understand that, show empathy, understand and pledge that if you support harris, we will work with you to change american policy going forward, martin luther king said we are tied together in this mutual arm it of destiny. trump is a threat to everyone of our communities in this nation that is not maga, so we have to defeat trump, i understand, believe me, i get it, but the threat by trump is too much. >> tom, i want to look back again as you pointed out to michigan in 2016, jill stein, the green party leader who is

running again and gary johnson, libertarian, collectively won 222,000 votes, that is 5% of the vote, trump beat hillary clinton by just over 10,000 votes. similar patterns have helped trump merrily win in pennsylvania and wisconsin. and this is exactly the kind of margins we could be looking at again this cycle. >> i think this is the great fear, we certainly saw this in 2016. we also saw it in 2000 where ralph nader pulled votes in florida and wish won by 500 and change. so this is an indication that we really need to be looking at our voting systems, you know,

having third-party is available, being able to vote for a third party, i think it's important but in this election, voting for a third party, at least democrats voting for a third party is handing the votes to trump. >> do whatever you want to do but just understand what the consequences are of what you are about to do. guys, thanks very much. before we go, information for our viewers in toronto and orlando, i'm coming home this tuesday to take part in the ramsey talks. i'll be in conversation with susan ormiston, three weeks out from the u.s. election on tuesday, tickets are still available at the royal conservatory website. thursday of this coming week, i'll be in orlando at the guide well innovation center for a

discussion about the role that we all have to play in the fight to preserve our democracy. wednesday, october 23rd, i'll be in dallas for a discussion about current events. tickets are also available. i hope i get a chance to meet you at one of these events. thank you for watching, catch me back here every saturday and sunday morning from 10:00 a.m. until noon eastern. inside with jen psaki begins right now. through the bs as only he can. cross, sounding the alarm about trump's plan to steal