now xfinity internet customers can buy one line of unlimited and get one free for a year. that does it for me today. but we are working for a big show tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. stacey abrams will join me on the state of the race in

georgia and i will talk to chris wallace on his fascinating new book. stay where you are. much more news coming up on msnbc. hello to all of you from the tom brokaw center. we have reports developing this are. deadlocked with 23 days until election day. a brand-new nbc news poll finds kamala harris and donald trump in a dead heat with 48% support each. last month's nbc poll had harris leading by five points after the presidential debate. on the issue of which candidate better represents change, harris is ahead of trump by about five points. that is down from her nine- point lead and september. on the trail, kamala harris today attending church service

in north carolina before holding a campaign rally later today. here was part of her message to worshipers. >> right now, fellow americans are experiencing some of the most difficult moments in their lives. yet instead of offering hope, there are those channeling people's tragedies and sorrows into grievance and hatred. and one may ask why. i could say that the motives are quite transparent. to gain advantage for themselves. >> her opponent, donald trump, will be holding a rally today and the battleground state of arizona, a day after speaking to supporters in the blue state of california. in a new interview today, trump was asked his message to undecided voters. >> what do you want to say to those voters out there who might be undecided who don't know what they are going to do yet? >> i think we will have a lot of votes. we have something sort of special going on. we have tremendous support. they are so tired of seeing what has happened to this

country. so tired of seeing the incompetence. i think the border is a bigger deal than inflation. >> did he answer the question? president biden greeting locals and first responders in florida as he surveyed damage from back- to-back storms. the president announcing new funding to shore up the electric grid and in impacted areas. >> i am proud to announce $612 million and six new cutting edge projects to support communities impacted by hurricane helene and milton. the funding will not only restore power but it will make power systems stronger and more capable and reduce the frequency and duration of power outages while extreme weather events become more frequent. >> we have reporters and analysts in place across the country ready to cover all the developing story lines for us. we will start with our senior political editor mark murray who has a breakdown of the new nbc news poll numbers.

first question, what is your biggest take away with this one? the race is close. does anybody have an advantage with 23 days to go? >> a bunch of takeaways. number one starts with a horse race. it shows it absolutely tight among registered voters at 48% for kamala harris and 48% for donald trump. that is down from harris' five- point lead and september. the timing is important. the september poll came after the debate between trump and harris after a bad news cycle regarding springfield, ohio for donald trump. the poll also shows an enormous ginger gap with harris winning by 14 percentage points and trump winning men by 16 percentage points. added up, it is a 30-point gender gap in the poll. and when it comes to the favorability of both candidates, it is similar. you end of having harris minus

a six not rating overall. for trump, a- eight rating. that is an improvement for trump but it is also worse for harris from what the polls show. >> give me a sense of the numbers and what they reveal about the perceptions of vice president harris compared to donald trump. do you have a sense of that? >> yes. let me start with harrison -- harris' favorable numbers. harris had plus the overall internet rating and is down to minus six. obviously the timing back in september was a high watermark for her. she has fallen a bit down to earth. perceptions of donald trump are really interesting. voters, there are more that believe donald trump's presidency ended up helping them versus hurting them. much more than when we asked

the same question about joe biden's policy is either helping or hurting them. and so the rosy perceptions of donald trump's presidency, sometimes we have to think about what would end up happening during the pandemic of 2020 as it relates to donald trump's presidency. there are these rosy perceptions of his presidency. >> what about top issues. run through them. is it the economy and pocketbook issues topping the list? >> normally, alex, it is the economy and cost-of-living topping the list. in this poll, we asked differently. is there one issue where you are so motivated you will vote so against to vote for someone because of an issue. we have abortion, immigration and border and protection democracy rights in the cost-of- living. abortion sometimes is at the bottom of the list when people say, what is your top concern. when we asked them what

motivates them and what is an issue like that, abortion comes to the top of the list in our poll. >> such a comprehensive poll. we have jen psaki. hosted inside with john saki on msnbc. thank you for sticking around. >> i am following mark murray who knows so much about the numbers. >> let's get to 23 days until election day. the new poll shows that harris has lost ground in the last month. is the apparent drop expected or is it concerning? a function of what the vice president is doing or not doing or is that something trump is doing. you don't look at the national polls but the state polls. also showing a close razor thin race where harris is up in some states and down in some states.

that is what they are looking at. it is not a national race. a race about six or seven states. i think it comes back down to earth. this would always be a close race. there are a range of factors and reasons for that. when you dig into the data, you can see some of the reasons including that harris is behind where people expected her to be among black men. she is behind where obama was an even more biden was in on election day, among latino voters. there are areas that have been more historically relied upon by democrats and those may be about shifts demographically. as younger voters, the younger latino voters, a lot of the black men are younger black men and maybe that is a factor. and there might be issues at play too. a lot of factors that you could see on the data. >> in regard to gender with each lagging, which one has the

bigger gender problem? >> and at the end of the day, you want more votes on election day. for harris, her movement, especially among white women who trump has won recently is a good thing. especially with abortion rights. the harris walls team knows they need to make up more ground with men and with black men specifically. you can see by some of the things they are doing and that media and outreach they are doing, it even tim walz going to a football game and doing things along those lines. >> pheasant hunting yesterday. >> pheasant hunting yes. >> maybe not appealing to suburban women i don't think are things along those lines. things like that exactly. >> with regard to turn out on election day, who typically is a more reliable gender?

who gets to the poll and does it? >> that is the thing. the electorate looks slightly different every four years. even when you measure women voters, female voters against 2020, a big seismic thing happens. the dobbs decision. it is hard. every electorate is slightly different. this is when people say that people just have to re-create the obama coalition. nobody can re-create the obama coalition except for obama. belmont -- obama will have the own coalition. harris will have her own coalition. in terms of term matt -- turn out, we have to see what happens on election day and i don't think we will know until it happens. >> what is interesting and i'm thinking of the guest on your

show, interesting that as mark put it, when we were talking, the way they phrased the question, abortion is the number one motivating let's get to the polls and do it factor. you think that would benefit women to go do it. >> it is definitely benefiting harris and the harris/walz campaign as it relates to the shift of women and the gender gap in that regard. there is no question about that. also for younger women, it is obviously an issue. not just an issue for younger women but a motivator. it is an interesting way that the question was asked and it is quite telling. right now, three weeks out, on a campaign, they are trying to get people to vote early and vote by mail so you can bank the votes and not have to worry about them on election day. that is a focus. what is a motivator for that? and then trying to get less likely voters. maybe people that vote in

presidential cycles or maybe people that never vote in special elections. voters that don't typically win presidential elections. these are people that need to get out and expand your coalition and your vote total. and both campaigns are focused on that in different ways. i would argue trump's strategy is different from harris. trying to expand the electorate and expand who is voting and trump is like this negative campaign where he is trying to take harris down too. take her down and make it seem harder to vote. make it harder to vote. it is a bit of a different strategy. for the harris campaign, expanding the focus and getting those less likely voters out. >> barack obama who campaigned for harris and pennsylvania come last week and in arizona and nevada this week. you have bill clinton in georgia today as well as tomorrow. will these events move the needle? if not, who can do that? would it be michelle obama or is it just up to the candidate

herself? president obama would love nothing more than to hear that his life is more of a motivator than him but may be. >> phenomenal campaigner. i don't know that it is a massively moving the needle as much as a motivator. one of the things president obama is so good at, and i have been on the campaign trail with him for more events and many but getting people to understand the urgency of the moment. you heard him do that. when he was on the trail thursday, you heard him have that specific warning to young black men, whether it is sexism or disinformation or a view on an issue. you are speaking directly to that demographic and that group for a period of that speech. that is what he is very good at. get off your couch and vote now. i don't know that people should vote on him.

it is not going to swing the polls massively. it is about getting people to get off of the couch and go vote in this moment and engage in the process. >> here is what you are good at. breaking this down for us, my friend. thank you for your time. >> i love talking to you. >> all of you can watch and said with jen psaki sundays at noon and mondays at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. more decision 2024 next on the campaign trail. optimism from democrats as kamala harris sweeps into north carolina. you will hear that. and then third-party specter. gauging the impact. back in 90 seconds. in the morning, he flies up the stairs and hops up on my bed. in the past, he would not have been able to do any of those things. when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd i noticed things changed. breztri gave me better breathing starting within 5 minutes. it also reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler

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, harris just spoke at a church is part of her campaign effort. her visit comes as the state is reeling in the aftermath of hurricane helene as early voting starts this thursday. i spoke with north carolina's democratic party chair who told me she is confident the votes will still be in on time even in the disaster cleanup. >> we do expect to the selection to be called on election night in north carolina and we do expect kamala harris to be victorious and our state. she has been traveling around and we are excited to have her. >> reporters are covering

campaigns across the country. we will begin with aaron gilchrist to his with the vice president in greenville, north carolina today. we have the harris campaign who has put a huge focus on north carolina visiting that state 19 times this camping cycle. what is on the agenda today and what is the larger strategy for the state? >> reporter: i think we are seeing a mix of faith and politics the vice president at a church in greenville. she spoke to the congregation a little while ago. today, the campaign is launching its souls to the polls initiative. it is an effort to drive turnout. particularly among black voters and black churchgoers in north carolina and in battleground states across the country. the vice president saying to people that she wants them to put their faith into action at the ballot box in particular. i want you to hear what she had to say from the pulpit in greenville today. >> at an early age, i learned that faith is a verb.

it is something we show an action and in service. and these hurricanes have revealed heroes around all of us. heroes who do not ask the injured or stranded whether they are republican or democrat. >> reporter: we heard the vice president talking about the response, the reaction of people here. at the same time, the vice president is on the ground trying to do the work of generating excitement and support. she spent time last night speaking with black leaders of the community, the faith community and the government in north carolina. she was in raleigh last night. before she comes here to this arena, she will meet with black farmers in north carolina and then we'll rally this crowd behind me. this is a county that is blue in a state that was red in

2020. the vice president really wants to and believes that she can witness winning the state by changing those numbers just a little bit. just enough to turn the state blue and help her toward a win in november. >> thank you for that. we will check back in again. let's go to our nbc correspondent jake trailer. where's the campaign heading next as we are approaching the final three weeks? >> we are in this prime time of the election. i was speaking with the trump campaign senior official yesterday who told me to expect zero days off as we get closer. this upcoming week, we will see the former president go after some of the pivotal swing states that we see harris go after as well. georgia, arizona, pennsylvania and this after an irregular week for the former president where he visited some traditionally blue winning

states like colorado. it was california last night. coachella. the president continued echoing some of his ramped up and more aggressive and heightened comments about undocumented immigrants at the southern border and pending those to vice president harris. he said what is happening at the border is vice president harris' fault. the campaign views immigration as a winning issue. trump has said many times himself that he believes immigration is a larger issue than the economy and women's rights and we assume that echo on the campaign trail. listen to the former president last night in california. >> she has imported an army of illegal alien gang members from the dungeons of the third world. many are prisoners. many had death sentences. they would be executed for murder. but that ended happily in california and other places.

>> these are of course unfounded claims that the biden administration or harris imported a document ambergris under the country. i am told that type of rhetoric, the focus on immigration is something we will continue to see from trump on the campaign stage all the way through election day, alex. >> not surprising. thank you for that. a waiting game. one issue residents of florida are saying leaves them desperate and frustrated in milton's aftermath.

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dramatic search and rescue still going on days after the hurricane milton landfall. hundreds of people rescued this weekend alone as swollen rivers and lakes are overflowing into neighborhoods. nearly a million homes and businesses are waiting to get power back and people are waiting for hours to get gas as the states are facing fuel shortages. today, president biden surveying the damage and had this to say. >> prioritizing debris removal and working with state and local partners to clear roads and get the wreckage of the two hurricanes off the properties so more folks can return home and businesses can receive much- needed deliveries of food, fuel, medicine and other essentials. >> let's go to st. petersburg, florida where the president surveyed the devastation. welcome. people are still without power. now they are facing gas shortages too.

i'm going to ask. how is it looking where you are ? >> reporter: it is tough for people who have not been able to get gas. the power situation is improving. we are getting more and more customers with power. they announced when the president spoke that they expect most people to have power back by tuesday yesterday, the governor said that a lot of the gas stations needed power in order to run the pumps. others just didn't have fuel. they also had an issue with ports getting fuel. the reality is a lot of the people behind me are lined up to get fuel here. they have not been able to get fuel at all since the storm. these are individuals that told me they have not been able to use their cars or they use whatever fuel they had in their car to get around the last few days and being careful. we drove around yesterday. we drove about 40-50 miles from one location to another. i

probably saw 10, 11 gas stations. only two had gasoline for sale. that is from the drive i took. that has been the same when i asked people what it has been like when you look for gas. they told me it is very difficult to find a gas station that does sell gas. the gas stations that sell gasoline have very long lines. this distribution center was opened up by the state and is one of many that they opened up. they had three yesterday. they will open more today where people are getting 10 gallons of free gasoline. these are people that have been lining up for hours. i spoke to some of the drivers earlier today and this is what they had to say. >> a lot of people go to the gas station. they are waiting. people in the stores say they are going to not give anybody bad news. but if you don't have gas, you won't have people waiting. i have been praying that i could make it. i'm here.

i'm not going anywhere. they might have to put some gas and i can but i'm going to sit right here until i get some in my car. >> alex, what the woman was talking about, that actually happened to me. i stopped at a gas station at some point friday thinking they had gasoline. i got out of my car and started looking for the pump only to find out that when i pushed the button, it wasn't working. they had a sign letting customers know that the gas pumps were not working. some people were parking and trying to pump gas and were not able to. and this line at the distribution center, you can only see it to the corner. this open at 7:00 a.m. at about 8:00 a.m., i drove in that direction. the line was about 20 blocks long work that was five hours ago. i can't imagine how long the line is. talking with some of the drivers here, they have been waiting 2-3 hours. many of them say that, i know if i line up, i can get gasoline. i don't know if i will find a

gas station open. the state says they have 1 million gallons of gasoline to distribute and they also have diesel. they say they will be distributing one deck 8 million gallons of diesel as well throughout florida for some of the drivers that need it, alex. >> this definitely confirms that the line is hours long. that was extraordinary. you have to tell me how you got to where you needed to go, unable to get gas. we will check back with you again. mind the gap. way could help democrats for a specific reason. and out of focus groups. do they really not know?

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a new nbc poll shows the presidential race in a dead heat despite the summertime boost that kamala harris got when she first topped the ticket. earlier on meet the press, steve karnak he pointed to data suggesting 2024 is shaping up to be a boys versus girls election. >> we always talk about gender gaps in presidential races. harris, 14 among women. there was a 40 number difference. we have never seen at this high. >> the huge disparity between men and women voters could play into harris' favor.

that showing that abortion is a top motivating issue for voters. joining me now is our democratic strategist and founder, ruby can strategist and msnbc political analyst. good to have you both back on a sunday. you first. we have the new nbc poll. it shows the race deadlocked. harris' popularity has declined compared to month ago after the huge boost from nominee. how do you account for this? with 23 days to go, how can harris fill in the blanks and address concerns voters may have? >> i think she has to spend some time. the people that will vote for kamala harris will vote for, the harris. they are highly educated and they regularly participate in the democratic process and they do well from an income perspective. she got to spend some time with disaffected communities. talking about the black male

vote. communities are not voting overwhelmingly for donald trump but she has to shore up that segment of black latino men by having some strategic and targeted conversations about, this is what it is in it for you. barack obama was not a messiah and did not change the world for all of us. this is what is at stake. this is the clear choice between me and an objectively inferior unqualified person and frankly evil empire. this is what government means for you. and frankly, barack obama and maybe even kamala harris may not be the best messengers for that specific segment that needs to be reached. the other part of the focus has to be voter protection. a little more than three weeks out and we need to make sure the people that are going to come participate have those votes protected and counted at the ballot box. >> let me ask you about the obama factor in a second. this finds donald trump's favorability up three points since september. even after the debate, most say that he resoundingly lost. how do you explain this?

>> it is all within the margin of error. everything we are looking at, favorable, unfavorable. head to head. it. with the exception of probably gender which you highlighted earlier. it is within the margin of error which means it is anyone's gas. we always have to keep in mind when we are looking at the selection, donald trump has run for office three times. he won one and lost one. it is pretty much 50/50 on how he could do. and it should not come as much of a surprise given how close the last few swing states have been. this is what it is. >> and because of that, i think harris may have the edge on this because of her get out and vote operation. >> and losing ground with black voters come up trump had some strong words. what is your overall reaction

to that? >> i think barack obama means well but i don't know that he is the best messenger to talk to specific segments of black men at this point in time. you have to remember nobody under 30 has ever voted for barack obama. another part of this is that i wonder how much time he spends with lower middle-class, working-class or black men that are highly intellectual, highly sensitive and funny and cool. how much time does he spend with them rather than helicopter in every two years around election and giving some kind of chastisement about manhood and pulling up your pants this time of the electoral context and is not delivered to anyone else in the american electorate. >> if it is not barack obama, if it is not him, charlemagne is doing the podcast with him this week. >> no. charlemagne has an important role. i think she did a good sitdown discussion with steven jackson and matt barnes on the smoke

pot test. they may not be the messengers. it is about the organizations we talked about being excited that we are mobilized at the beginning of the individual calls. those of the guys. the woman that need to get out into the trenches away from the fraternities and sororities and get back to the barbershops and get into the trenches and talk to real people and drag them out if you have to the last 30 days. it is existential. maybe the politicians are not the best messengers. may be real working class people that have been in the trenches before and you are consistently and relationships are the best messengers rather than these demigods and suits and ties coming from on high. >> independent voter, that is the wildcard in the race. they are essentially split. 10% say they might change their minds before election day. take a listen to what a focus group of undecided voters had to say when asked if the election were held today. >> the more i think about it, the more i don't know if i can

vote for harris. i do not trust her. i am more inclined for someone that would best represent us. >> i know she will have to run again later. i'm hoping she will be an exemplary president for this term. >> i cannot get over what happened in 2020 and what has been reaffirmed in the debates and the very general statements made during the campaign. not just the riot but it is a bridge too far. >> no consensus. what are the key challenges for both harris and trump regarding these voters and the final stretch? >> it is interesting. the focus group you should was primarily younger voters. if i saw that correctly. that is a different audience than what we think of as suburban moms as the swing voters. who are we really saying we need to get to?

to don's point, if you are talking to younger voters of any race, you have to get to where they are. you have to talk them through it. frankly, a lot of people don't follow this the way we do. we don't know where the candidates stand on issues. and we know it is all about the volunteers who have gotten involved since the announcement. and touching and bringing someone to the polling place. that is what changes elections on the margins. they have to be treated like this is a statewide election in seven states and really just go out and grab. >> so there has been this cascade of articles warning the harris campaign has plateaued and the record-breaking cash all could be bad news for her and warns of challenges with male voters. swing state voters and a lot more. the new washington post article said the trump campaign believes it is cruising toward victory.

so is all the team harris worrying warranted? why don't we see this kind of angst from team trump? >> i don't know anything about why anybody at the trump university thinks and asks this or ask the way they do. what i would tell for anybody, is that harris could lose the election. engage through the community organizations we relied on to build community. if not, you are not affiliated with some organization, get your family out into the street and knock on doors. it doesn't cost you anything. make sure everybody comes out to vote. she could lose the election. i spent time in detroit this week as well as philadelphia. the reality is, you can tell by the cadence of the ads, the republicans think they are peeling off just enough people to not participate or vote for trump. kamala harris could absolutely lose this election and she will not lose however if committed people get out and make a hard push that will be glamorous or fun the last few weeks.

>> i need a quick answer. about the unprecedented gender gap. trump is holding a town hall focusing on issues impacting women with an all-female audience. a man found civilly liable for sexual abuse and responsible for overturning roe v wade, does he really think you will make inroads with women? i mean, will he? >> he just wants to say he is doing it and the audience will be packed. the good news for harris if you want to take a little out of this on the gender issue is that abortion is a motive, top motivating issue. and there is, nationally, more women registered and participating. it is just on the margins. at least you have that. this is frankly a joke what trump is doing. >> it will be a long 23 days. i will get through it with your help. >> smoke, fire and unearthed

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[child laughing] (♪♪) (♪♪) [child giggling with delight] (♪♪) come on you two. dinner time. ♪ ooooh. ooooh. ♪ breaking news out of the middle east. earlier today, the israeli military treated airstrikes with has bowl with the idf saying they attacked dozens of targets in southern lebanon. it comes as israel released a trove of secret hamas documents

that it says provide new details into the planning of the october 7th attack including efforts to recruit hezbollah and iran. aaron mclaughlin is in tel aviv with more on this. what do we know about the content of those documents? >> alex, the documents were provided by the israeli military and were said to have been seized from the tunnels of gaza and given to the new york times and other news outlets. according to the new york times reporting, and these documents which amount to detailed minutes of secret hamas meetings in the build up to october 7th, it was clear that hamas had been planning the attack for some two and a half years. not only that but also according to the minutes from these meetings, they reached out to hamas allies, notably iran and has blood. documents pointing to one reason and one meeting in particular of a senior hamas

operative that traveled to meet with a senior iranian commander in july of 2023, months before the attacks. in that meeting, hamas asked the iranian commander for support, specifically targeting sites inside israel and the early moments of the attack. according to the documents, while the senior iranian commander was supportive in general of the attack. the iranian commander asked for more time to participate. now we have reached out and heard from the iranian ambassador to the united nations who says that iran had no prior knowledge of october seventh. also denying any involvement in the october 7th attack. >> we also have new reporting about the united states approving deployments of an air defense system to israel. what more can you tell us about that? >> this was a system that was

also deployed in the wake of the october 7th attacks. overnight, the pentagon releasing a statement saying that it would be deploying the system to israel to bolster israel's air defenses. the system also requiring u.s. troops to operate it. let's pull up the statement and i will read you what the statement had to say. at the direction of the president, secretary austin authorized the deployment of a terminal high altitude area defense battery and associated crew of defense personnel to israel to help ulster israel's air defenses following iran's unprecedented attacks against israel on october 13th and again on october 1st. i should note that israel has yet to respond to the attack on october 1st in which more than 180 missiles were launched from iran toward israel. the majority of those missiles

were seized, shot down by the israeli defense system. clearly, they are bolstering the systems ahead of a potential retaliatory strike, alex. >> absolutely. thank you so much. party favors or politics? what you should know about joel stein. a closer look. ell as sensitivity protection. patients are going to love to see sensodyne on the shelf. ♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply for the whole family. vicks vapostick. and try new vaposhower max for steamy vicks vapors.

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and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. new concerns third party candidate jill stein could again play the role of spoiler against democrats and help donald trump win reelection in november. as the green party candidate, jill stein won votes in 2016 that likely would have gone to hillary clinton. the dnc now launching a new at reaching out to stein voters. >> she is not sorry she helped

trump win. that is what a vote for jill stein would help trump win. >> i like her very much. she takes 100% from them. >> joining me is tom rogers, executive chairman of orbit gaming and entertainment and editor at large at newsweek. tom wrote that article and i welcome you. good to see you. give me a sense of the profile of the jill stein or green party voter. and will this dnc ad give people something to consider? or does the third party voter want to make a statement? >> the third party voter in 2016 that voted for jill stein was very much a disaffected bernie sanders voter and was heavily targeted, many suggest. russian money was feeling her campaign on social media. she did not run in 2020. in 2024, a lot of the campaign seems to be aimed at the anti- israel vote. it is certainly a vote that is intended to characterize kamala

harris as not progressive enough. certainly, it is a protest vote. but it clearly comes out of harris' hide. and i think that ad is totally correct. it is something that is 100% a drag on harris. >> in this new nbc news poll, vice president harris and trump are both tied at 48%. and then when third-party candidates are included, the trump jd vance ticket gets the edge. 4% of voters go for third-party candidates. jill stein gets 1%. how significant could that 1% be in november? >> of course that is a national poll and it comes down to the swing states. when you are talking about one or 2% of the vote going to a third-party candidate and you have the margin of error in the

state polls, it is hard to assess where that third-party vote is. what we do know is that not only jill stein but cornell west is on the wisconsin and michigan ballot. jill stein is on all the swing states except nevada. both of them together could meaningfully make a difference. particularly when it comes to that far left of center israeli vote particularly with the arab community, arab american community in michigan which a lot seems to be focused on voting for jill stein rather than harris. of course, that commercial hit it just right. a vote for jill stein and a vote for west is a vote for trump. and finally, the campaign is going at that hard. i'm glad to see they are devoting mad money to that. we know that the swing states will come down to 1%, 2% of the vote and this could make all the difference. >> i want to look at some

numbers. you wrote that in 2016, trump's margin of victory in pennsylvania was 44,292 votes. stein's that was 49,941. michigan, trump's margin was 10,704 and jill stein's vote was 51,463. wisconsin, trump's margin was 22,740. and jill stein, 41,072. is there any chance she will come close to those numbers this year? >> he would be surprised. we didn't have jill stein on the ballot in 2020. we did have a libertarian candidate on the belt that nobody heard of and still nobody has ever heard of. when i asked politically, astute people, you remember the libertarian candidate in 2020? you get close to 1% of the vote in the swing states. people didn't know if joe

jorgenson was a man or woman. she is a woman. total non- name recognition candidates can garner that kind of a vote. what is particularly difficult is that in 2020, trump got the same percentage of the vote in those 2020,swing states. vote in those swing states he did in 2016. what changed was that biden increased his percentage of the vote without meaningful third- party vote being on the ballot this time meaning that it is fair to assume biden's margin was largely a function of picking up votes that had gone to third-party in 2016. that it is why it is particularly worrisome. i think you are going to have rf jk jr. on the ballot still in a number of states. hopefully, it matters. possibly, michigan and wisconsin, although it will distort support for