black women need to be reminded of for them. she winks and nods at it. she talks about how her mother raised her and her sister to be strong black women. she talked about going to howard, iconic hbcu. she talks about being part of a black sorority. it's the opposite of a dog whistle. people who are supposed to understand what it means to her and the culture, they understand those things. i don't see that changing any time soon. >> the vice president, of course, on a blitz through the blue wall states. michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania this week. white house correspondent for "politico," eugene daniels, thank you, as always. and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. we are running like the underdog. we have some hard work ahead of it. but here's the thing also, we like hard work.

[ applause ] hard work is good help. with your help in 22 days, we will win. we will win! >> if everyone gets out and votes on the 5th, or before. used to be you had a date. now, you can vote three months before, probably after it. they don't know what the hell they're doing. we're going to straighten it all out, straighten the election process out, too. >> he got the date wrong there. >> the guy that told everybody that the election was january 5th said, oh, but i don't know, whenever. they don't know what the hell they're doing. >> yeah. >> quite an event last night, by the way, start to finish. >> it was. >> i was confused by it. >> i was very confused. a lot of good listening.

you know, the crowd got together to see donald trump sway to music for, what, an hour or so? >> not sure what happened. he just swayed for like an hour. >> he did. i think there was a medical emergency or two, which you see at the events. i saw it at doug's event thursday night. take care of the person, take them out, and continue the speech. last night, they listened to guns and roses about an hour. >> and charles krauthammer, peggy noonan, kept saying, you know, kamala sucks. it is incredible, the people who claim the mantle of ronald reagan, claim the mantle of lincoln, ike, anybody, they've just debased the party so much, in so many ways. you saw glenn youngkin yesterday, right? >> oh.

>> being interviewed by jake. like east germany 1986. oh, we're free. the soviet union doesn't -- and he just kept going back. he was lying. the interviewer knew he was lying. the audience knew he was lying. but it didn't matter. it was only great leader that he was focused on. i have to lie. i have to shame all of my former business partners. i have to shame everybody that, like, has worked on my campaigns. i have to shame myself and just lie, a boldfaced lie about the guy i'm supporting saying he is going to get armed troops to go after his political opponents on election day. or else donald trump may get

mad. that's where the republican party has been, unfortunately, for nine years, and that's why they keep losing. >> yeah. the cultish behavior was on full display from the strange rally in pennsylvania that donald trump held, where the sitting governor of south dakota, kristi noem, who took herself off the list of the vice president because she talked about killing her dog, kept calling him sir, sir. it was a bizarre dynamic. then glenn youngkin, supposed to be this pro-business, mitt romney, old school republican, doing the same thing. jake tapper reading direct quotes to governor youngkin and saying, that's not what he said. jake is like, i'm literally reading his words. what is your response to his words? we'll play that in a few minutes. again, this is where the party is with three weeks to go until election day. a lot of this is stylistic, but

we'll also dig into the substance again of what donald trump is saying about tariffs, what he is saying about immigration. the lies he is telling. >> just crazy. >> to his supporters. >> i love what you tweeted, which is the process -- >> trump apologist. >> -- a trump apologist goes through when you try to present them with the facts. it's a process. and you actually never get anywhere with them. >> it is. jake's interview with glenn youngkin yesterday really kind of showed it. you know, and i hear this actually in -- i heard it yesterday in my everyday life. >> you hear it all the time. >> you know, you go, and i want to say, my gosh, you know, did you hear what he said about arresting all of his opponents and shutting down cbs and, you know, using the national guard and military to go against his political opponents on election day? and the first thing they say, this happened to me yesterday,

oh, i didn't hear that. >> mm-hmm. >> you go, well, he said it. >> here it is. >> here's the quote. >> let's play it for you. >> he said -- >> read it for you. >> -- oh, yeah, yeah, he didn't say that. i mean, he didn't say that. you go, here's the quote. that's exactly what he said. then if you finally get them to admit what everyone knows is the truth, they say, oh, he doesn't mean it. says he'll arrest all his opponents. he says he'll shut down networks he doesn't like. he says he'll use the military, but he doesn't mean it. he's just joking. not much of a joke. but speaking of a joke, let's go ahead quickly, before we get to the show, and be entertained by glenn youngkin and jake tapper. >> you heard some of the language that mr. trump used over the weekend. what do you think of this idea of, quote, "we have some sick people, radical left lunatics, and i think it should be very

easily handled by, if necessary, the national guard, or if really necessary, by the military"? is that something you support? >> jake, first of all, thank you for having me. i guess what i want to just make very clear is that it's my belief that what former president trump is talking about are the people that are coming over the border that, in fact, are committing crimes, that are bringing drugs, that are trafficking humans, and that are turning every state into a border state. i'm a governor of a state that is not near the southern border, and yet i see the impacts of 10 million people illegally coming across the border every single day. >> but that's not what i'm talking about. he was talking about sick people, radical left lunatics who should be handled by the national guard and the military. later on in that same speech, he said, one of the lunatics he addressed was congressman adam schiff. that's who he was talking about using the national guard and military against, radical left

lunatics, enemy from within, people like adam schiff. >> again, jake, i don't think -- and, again, i can't -- >> i'm reading you his quotes. >> -- speak for him, but i think you're misinterpreting and misrepresenting his thoughts. i do believe, again, it's all about the fact that we have had an unprecedented number of illegal immigrants come over the border in an unconstrained, unrestrained fashion. the biden/harris administration has allowed it to happen. just two weeks ago, we, in fact, had senior people from our national security apparatus say that there's 15,000 violent felons in the united states. they have no idea where they are. that is what i believe the president is refering to. i don't think he is referring to elected people in america. >> i'm literally reading his quotes. i'm literally reading his quotes to you, and i played them earlier so you could hear that they were not made up by me. he is literally talking about, quote, radical left lunatics. one of the lunatics he mentioned was congressman adam schiff. >> jake --

>> i'm talking about donald trump saying he wants to use the national guard and the military to go after the left. that's what he's saying. >> i don't believe that's what he is saying, but, listen, you and i will argue about that. i would suggest -- >> i played the quote and read it to you. i mean, you can wish he weren't saying that, but that's what he's saying. >> again, joe, that is glenn youngkin, conventional mitt romney, pro-business republican, just twisting himself in knots to defend donald trump. again, they're lying about the numbers. he misspoke, but they're not even close when he said 10 million illegal immigrants crossing the border every week. the number in september, according to the border patrol, was 54,000, which represented a low, going back more than four years. >> yeah. what's so fascinating is, i would say normally, it's not really what donald trump said, except for the fact that what he is talking about is a fascist -- >> playbook. >> right out of the fascist playbook where you use the

military to go after your political opponents. i will say, he did try to pressure the attorney general for everybody, all these trump apologists right now or people who are ashamed to vote for donald trump but are lying about donald trump, saying, "oh, we got through four years without him doing anything," well, we didn't, actually. we didn't get through january 6th. also, again, for those that were -- that call themselves proud reagan supporters or 41 supporters or whoever you've supported in the past, this is a guy that pressured his attorney general publicly and privately to arrest hillary clinton. this is a guy that publicly and privately pressured his attorney general to arrest joe biden two weeks before the 2020 election. we've been here before. republicans know it. they keep lying for him. again, i'm sorry, what's in it

for glenn youngkin? i've never understood what was in it for him. >> i don't know. >> and what was in it for other people. >> these things don't end well for everybody. >> why would he do that? why have republicans been doing this for nine years? >> it is inexplicable to me. >> especially when you get to the point where you're defending somebody -- glenn youngkin is defending the use of the army and the national guard against democrats, against donald trump's political opponents. that's where we are. that's where america is. that's where the republican party is. three weeks from -- can i say it now -- the election of our lifetime. >> yes, you can say it. >> if you have a republican party going along with all the things they've been going along with, and they can't even say it's about policy because, you know, "the wall street journal"

yesterday, "the wall street journal" -- not like "the nation" -- "the wall street journal," the business journal for wall street in america, it interviewed economists. >> mm-hmm. >> almost unanimously, they said, donald trump's policies would lead to higher inflation. >> mm-hmm. >> and a bigger deficit than kamala harris' policies. and the tariffs, they keep getting crazier and crazier. 5%, 10%, 20%. i mean, there's nothing about his policies that are good for anybody, except, like, billionaires in silicon valley. >> republicans are so specific about things kamala harris has said 5, 10, 15 years ago. they remember it crystal clear. yet you present him with something donald trump said to them at a rally -- >> yesterday. >> -- or said in an interview that they clearly saw, and they cannot admit it happened because

it's usually something that is so against the norms or against what our constitution stands for or unlawful. just, again, the hypocrisy is incredible. it's also frightening, the things that trump is saying. >> well -- >> also, they say she doesn't do interviews, doesn't do this, she's not smart, she's not this, she's stupid. kristi noem, are you in eighth grade? what grade are you in? literally acting like a child. a child that would be put to the side and said, "you're going to take a time-out." but here's the deal, like, kamala harris is now doing an interview on fox news. you're running out of things to criticize. >> they have nothing. >> you have to make up stuff. >> they're making it up. you take that. wait, who is stupid? who was beaten so badly in the debate that he refused to do a second debate with kamala harris on fox news? who is now -- i mean, you know,

he thinks the election is on january 5th. he gets confused about world war ii. he thinks barack obama is president of the united states. you can go on and on about all the things he said. and swaying to music for god knows how long last night. he refuses to do a "60 minutes" interview. okay, we know why. he refuses to release his medical records. and while we're talking about just the latest outrage that he said on sunday -- i say outrage. i don't know if it is catastrophizing if somebody out and out says, "we should be, like, fascists. we should use the military against our political opponents." that's what he said, glenn youngkin. no need to lie anymore. everyone knows it's a lie. >> why? >> even over the past week or two, they've lied about springfield. again, still lying about the 2020 election. >> it's hurting people. >> continuing to lie over and over again. so it's a pretty clear-cut

decision if you're a republican. if you're a conseconservative, american. yet the polls say it is pretty close. we'll see. along with mika and willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. partner and chief political columnist at "puck," john heilemann. associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. and gene and john have two columns that fit very tightly with -- >> they do. >> -- with quick overview of the polls over the last couple days, which really, if you listen to democrats, the worst. i mean, the whiners out there, the worst couple days of polling literally since herbert hoover lost to fdr. so what -- how -- please, i want to understand this political thing. i'm just a simple caveman, country lawyer. tell me, what have the latest

national polls said over the last two days? >> a roundup of the latest national polling. tipp tracking poll of likely voters shows kamala harris ahead of donald trump, 49% to 46%. >> this, by the way, the most accurate poll in 2020. >> well, the whining is because if you want to call it whining, i'd call it concern for the future of our country. >> uh-huh. >> that is within the poll's margin of error. >> exactly. it's a tie. >> the latest nbc poll has the race tied at 48% each. >> it's tied. >> the latest abc/ipsos poll finds harris up two. the latest cbs news/ugov poll finds harris up three. >> gene, you've heard the whining. i've heard the whining. >> it's not whining. >> it is whining. stop whining and get to work. >> seriously. >> you know, gene, in all of my campaigns, i always said, we're behind. we're behind. just like harris is saying, we're behind. work harder. i don't mind them whining about,

you know, kamala not being up by five points so long as they work hard. i don't mind if one side is whining. well, kwhar you going to do about it? get to work. but your latest column, you talk about how democrats need to stop doom scrolling. this reminds me of 2008. people would nervously go on 538 every two to five seconds. if polls weren't going their direction for barack obama, they'd melt down. thus, they continue to melt down. >> yeah. i, too, am old enough to remember 2008. it was the same kind of thing. if there was like a blip in obama's polling, people would just freak out. they're just never going to elect them. it's going to be awful. it's going to be horrible. of course, we know how that worked out. look, the race is where it is, right? she has a narrow lead in the national polls.

the swing states are all within the margin of error according to the polls. we're not going to know which way they're swinging until we count the votes. and so what are you going to do? are you going to obsess on that and wring your hands and -- >> it's what they do. >> please go see your therapist. but in the meantime, go out and just work for her. you know, make phone calls with the phone instead of using it just to scroll through the polling that's not going to tell you anything new. in fact, she's got -- if she raised $1 billion in three months, and her campaign has maybe the biggest field operation, certainly that i've ever seen or heard of, thousands and thousands of field workers in all the states.

2,500 in the battleground states alone. they should be in a really good position with all those hundreds of thousands of volunteers to get out the vote. by the way, the election's already started in a lot of states. get up off the couch. go, go help bring this home. because she is in a really good position to be the next president of the united states. >> john heilemann's piece is on this theme, as well, "keep kamala and carry on." whether the democratic worrying about the harris campaign is warranted or a case of political ptsd. john, we'll let you walk through your piece, but a lot of this is about 2016, is it not? democrats were feeling confident. donald trump is donald trump. no way he could be president. they learned the lesson the hard way, he certainly could be. what are you seeing in the field and talking to people? not just voters but inside the campaigns, as well. >> there's some ptsd not just

from 2016 but 2020, where the polling miss in 2020 was bigger than the polling miss in 2020, comprehensively. joe biden was supposedly up by large amounts, and we saw basically a four-point polling swing, polling miss across the battleground states. so there's a lot of ptsd. i try to, in this piece, go through and say, hey, there are reasons why democrats -- there is a case for panic. there's a case. there's data out there that should alarm democrats. you look at some of the things. when you hear people like elissa slotkin in michigan or tammy baldwin in wisconsin privately telling people the vice president is behind in those states, it's a reason to worry. you look at her numbers with african american voters, numbers with hispanic voters, that's a good reason to worry. what is not a good reason to worry, and this is where i kind of go to the other side and say, this is why you aren't just bedwetting here, and this is where you have to calm down, relates to what gene said. i'd put a somewhat finer point on it. the race is tied statistically.

it has been tied statistically since the democratic convention, effectively. harris made -- got some ground from late august to mid september. we have been in this statistical tie nationally, the battleground states, the entire time. there's not been volatility in this race. in the period of time from the democratic convention through the debate through to now, let's start with the democratic debate. harris was up three points in the national polling. you had the debate where she slaughtered donald trump. you had a second assassination attempt on donald trump. you have war breaking out in the middle east. you have the fed lowering interest rates for the first time in years. i could name ten other big things that have happened. she's still up by three, supposedly, in the national polls. one of the most helpful things that's happened in the last couple days because of this panic in the democratic party is that the harris campaign finally allowed david plouffe to go out and try to talk about the data

on "save america" and "new york" magazine. david plouffe is a partisan, and he fights for his team. but he is not a bs-er. if you read his assessment of the data, i think it is as clear -- both sophisticated and clear-eyed as anyone could say. the two campaigns don't disagree. plouffe says, if a poll has harris up by four points, throw it in the trash. if you see a poll with trump up by four points, throw it in the trash. it is a tie race. it is uncomfortable for democrats. it is a tied race. it'll be a tight race through to election day. it'll be maybe the closest election of our lifetimes. everyone is going to be scared if they care about the future of the country, but don't read these polls in this kind of insane way over the course of this period of time. there's really been nothing to learn from them for about a month, and there won't be another three weeks. the race was tied. the race is tied. >> these polls also shouldn't be

tested because they've been so wrong in recent cycles. pollsters acknowledge they're doing them in different ways, trying to over sample, perhaps, trump voters, because they missed them in '16, in 2020. they undercounted them. now, there is a theory among some anyway that maybe they're being overcounted. certainly, this race, to john's point, to eugene's point, couldn't be much tighter. it'll be won along the margins. we are seeing on the harris side all her surrogates fanning out in recent days. former president clinton has been on the road. former president obama is on the road. will head back out again. the vice president has picked up her media blitz. it wasn't just last week with the mainstream outlets. this week going into enemy territory, talking to fox. bloomberg news reporting her campaign is in talks for her to do an appearance on the "joe rogen podcast." it's being considered. she's out there doing these interviews and, more importantly, hitting the road.

this week, living in those three blue wall states. governor walz, as well. wisconsin, pennsylvania, michigan. as much as this race has -- there's so much tumult between president biden dropping out after his disastrous debate, the two assassination attempts, harris' unexpected surge, the fact she's got $1 million in the bank, the outside forces that john detailed, this race has remained remarkably steady. it's remained remarkably steady. it'll be about the democrats' path to victory, their best path is the same one we were looking at a year ago, 18 months ago. pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, and the one from nebraska. >> if it is as close, and certainly looks like it is as close, if it is this close, then tie goes to the side that has the best turnout operation. right now, there's no doubt that the harris campaign is a far better turnout operation than the trump campaign. if they work harder over the next three weeks, if history is

your guide, they're going to be in pretty good shape. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll get to that new survey from "the wall street journal" about how donald trump's policies will cause higher inflation and interest rates compared to those of kamala harris. we'll break down the data from dozens of economists. plus, vice president harris used trump's own words against him at her pennsylvania rally last night. we'll talk about that new strategy for taking on the former president. "morning joe" is back in 90 seconds. hi. i'm damian clark. i'm

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charlamagne the god. charlamagne the god. all right. all right. ♪♪ all right. do i have to say what that is? the mausoleum, the new yankees stadium. >> beautiful. has all the passion and warmth of elevator music. willie, your yankees, though, congratulations. a good start. the day started, though, out on the west coast with the dodgers and the mets. man, i'll tell you -- >> go mets. >> i was talking to phil griffin. they lost 9-0 the first night. i said, go back and look at the 1960 world series. anybody that knows baseball knows that the 1960 world series ended with bill hitting the walk-off home run against the

yankees. in 1960, the yankees outscored the pirates, like, 57-23 or 54-27, something like that, and they still won the series. 9-0, like, with the right team, that's okay. and the mets, i know it'll be hard for you to believe, i'm getting to a point, the mets are just one of those teams that are like, we lost 9-0. let's beat them 2-1 tomorrow. but they did more than that. it shows the character of this mets team. >> yeah, seven-game series, 9-0 means nothing. that's one game. you can win 100-0, it's over, you move on, plenty of time to recover in a long series. they did that yesterday afternoon in l.a. francisco lindor, who else, put the mets on the board early with a lead-off home run to open the game, setting the tone in the alcs. breaking up the record scoreless streak by dodgers pitchers this postseason. they'd been untouchable until that swing. in his next at-bat, dodgers would intentionally walk lindor

with two outs, runners on second and third. leading to this. mark vientos and the bases loaded. >> crack to right center field. on the move, at the track, couldn't find it. that's because it's over the wall! grand slam, vientos! >> incredible. >> hits around lindor and got that from vientos, making the dodgers pay. right center field, grand slam. mets win, 7-3. they tie the best of seven series, one game a piece. teams travel back to new york for game three tomorrow night in queens. in the bronx, carlos rodon was great to open for the yankees. struck out nine batters, walked none, allowing just one run, three hits over six innings of work. they need that from him and got it last night. on the other side, the cleveland guardians gave up four runs between the third and fourth inning. just one hit.

it was a mess of wild pitches out of the bullpen. solo home run from juan soto. six walks, four wild pitches making the difference, and moving the yankees to within three wins of their first world series appearance in 15 years. can you believe it's been a decade and a half? giancarlo stanton adding to his postseason run. yankees beat the guardguardians in the first alcs game against a team not named the astros. jonathan lemire, they have gerrit cole going tonight with a chance to go up 2-0. >> yeah, the yankees have owned the la central. they couldn't beat the astros, but they have a favorable draw this time around. rodon was terrific. the guardians seemed nervous being on the big stage. we saw the wild pitches. aaron judge still not hitting

but soto is, stanton is. bullpen has been better of late. back to the national league, yeah, this mets team has proven to be so resilient in recent weeks. and what a tone. to lose 9-0, to face a team that hadn't given up a run in more than 20 innings, first batter of the game, lindor, home run. >> huge. >> vientos, a rising star, wasn't even on the opening day roster, a rising star for the mets, you know, now reliable, the third best hitter behind lindor and alonso. you know, they got another good outing from their best pitcher. tomorrow night, citi field in queens is going to be loud. the dodgers have all the talent, still have ohtani and mookie, but they have pitching questions. the mets have momentum. >> mets have been waiting a long time. >> dodgers have pitching questions, they do. they put some of the questions to rest, i'd say, against the padres when everybody said dodgers pitchers can't get this

done. they shut the padres down two straight, crucial games. dodgers are my hometown team. mets are my favorite team in baseball. i'm in a terrible position, but i have to say, it'll be an incredible series. no way this isn't going seven, i don't think. >> yamamoto, huge start tomorrow for the dodgers. >> yeah. >> it'll be great. it's going to be great. you know, willie just said that -- or maybe it was lemire who said that aaron judge is not hitting. >> yeah. >> another aaron in new york is not hitting it either. aaron rodgers, gene, lost again last night. >> wow. >> aw. >> fire the coaches because aaron rodgers wants you to fire the coaches. that's my theory. >> yeah. >> but, man, the jets are the jets. >> they're the jets. yeah, they're still the jets. i mean, aaron rodgers did do the thing that he does last night. he completed another hail mary. he's completed more hail mary

passes than any pro quarterback, i think in history. there was a crazy one last night. but in the end, they just fell short. they're just not that good. aaron rodgers will be discontented again with how things are going with the jets. they're just not good enough. they were supposed to be good. they're supposed to have a great defense. aaron rodgers and look where it's taken them, not very far. >> all right. go mets. so excited. >> let's go mets. still ahead on "morning joe," our next guest is taking a look at the epidemic of political lying. why republicans do it more and, quote, how it could burn down our democracy. that conversation is next on "morning joe." >> look at that.

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did donald trump win, yes or no. >> yes. >> he did win. >> yup. >> will you concede, if your opponent gets more votes, will you concede? >> i really feel bad for you, man. >> in springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in.

they're eating the cats. they're eating -- they're eating the pets of the people that live there. >> this was a tragic hurricane. this was maybe the worst hurricane we've ever had. he's got no money. we say, what happened to the money? they were given billions of this. he spent it on illegal migrants coming into the country. >> it's just -- >> some of the lies. >> it's all lies. >> with major implications coming from former president trump and his republican party. >> it's all lies. >> nobody will say it's a lie. >> most people he talks to give him a safe space and bubble wrap him. >> now, a new book examines -- >> won't get his feelings hurt and they can keep getting the interviews. >> we know how lies are formed. they come out of donald trump's mouth. beyond the big lie, the epidemic of political lying and why republicans do it more and how it could burn down our democracy. it draws on interviews with politicians and experts and

misinformation and analyzes the rise of political lying. joining us now, the book's author and founder of the fact-checking site, bill adair of duke university. >> we go back a long way. he did a long profile of me when i was in congress and tried to make a tea-totaling, right-wing congressman look cool. did a pretty good job, bill. >> you have a good memory, joe. >> yeah. well, you know, i also have a good memory of the first time you started politi-fact. it was a new thing, fascinating thing, fact-checking. "the washington post" tried to keep up with donald trump over his four years, and, again, it was absolutely dizzying. but you look at glenn youngkin yesterday with jake tapper. you look at the vice

presidential candidate saying donald trump won the election in 2020. it's lies of omission, lies of commission. but it's just a flurry of lies. i do wonder, if you get to a point where, for one party, the truth just doesn't matter at all? we know politicians on both sides will skirt the truth, sometimes lie, sometimes put things -- sometimes exaggerate. but here, you have one party, one candidate lying so much, it really is hard to keep up with it. how does democracy survive? how does fair and open debate survive in this sort of orwellian environment on the right? >>scary, joe. one of the reasons i wrote the book is to explore that.

you know, if you think about 15 years ago when i used to come on this show and talk about politifact, it'd be a question of, is it a mostly false, a half true? now, it's just pants on fire, pants on fire. things have really changed. what i tried to do with the book is to explore the why. why do politicians lie? how do they lie? what is the partisan pattern? one of the things that i admit in the book is that, as a fact-checker, that i sort of hid the pattern of lying. i begin with a scene of me on c-span when a caller calls in and says, "which party lies more?" i lie and say, "well, we don't keep score." well, i knew. this was 2012. i knew even then that republicans lied more. so what i do with this book is explore that, why that's the case.

also, more broadly, why all politicians lie. >> in your career, bill, we were talking on the break of the evolution of lying, if you want to put it that way. but a lie, let's say, for example, like the springfield, ohio, lie. haitian immigrants who are here legally are eating cats and dogs, which the mayor of the town, the governor, everybody said was false. 15 years ago, it would have been lived on the dark corner of the internet. your uncle may have sent this in an email with all caps, different colors, different fonts, with the email he wrote. now, you have the man who wants to be president again elevating the lies to a presidential debate. how did we get to that point, where the conspiracy theories that were fringe before now are right at the center of the argument of the republican party? >> i think there are a few things that have changed. one is, i think the party has decided in many ways that lying

pays off. one of the things i explore in the book is, why do politicians lie? it's a calculation. i'm going to gain more from this lie than i'm going to lose. it's almost like points. so in trump's case, of course, he just lies shamelessly. joe was saying he's, you know -- "the washington post" counted all these lies over the years. but there's also an ecosystem that not only provides an echo chamber but profits from these lies. we saw in the dominion case that fox needed to play along with the big lie about the 2020 election to remain competitive. it's different. it's not just that they're not challenging the lies, they're echoing them. >> you know, i go back and look at my own family. i look at my own friends.

yesterday, i was trying to figure out, when did this start with the people i know, the people i love, that they started watching programs and would start calling me up with the most bizarre and wild rumors? got to say, it started after barack obama got elected and glenn beck started his 5:00 show. i've said this on the show in real time, and i'll say it now. they would call me, you know, after his show every night, my mom and her friends -- who, again, had masters degrees, were getting up there in years, but were brilliant. loved listening to both sides. very conservative. but, you know, like keith oberman's show because it was witty.

probably never voted for a democrat except for when mom voted for jfk instead of nixon. but i do remember in 2009, something changing. they would call and go, oh, my god, sharia law. you have to talk about it. they're going to enact sharia law in oklahoma. no, they're not. no, barack obama is a muslim, and i heard it. you know, every day, i would have to deprogram them for about 20 minutes, saying, the muslims aren't taking over the country. barack obama is not a, quote, black man who hates all white people, which they also heard on that program. that you're not going to have sharia law in pensacola, florida. but it was a daily occurrence. i noticed at that point, just everything starting to pick up. people on radio starting to echo that. suddenly, you know, it was all

about whipping people into a total frenzy, lying all the time, and lying the big lie repeatedly. that's the first time i had trouble having conversations with my parents about the truth. like, no, sharia law is not coming to oklahoma. you're cool. let's talk about the braves. >> so i think you identify a really important moment, joe. that is the point where people became connected. that was, in many ways, such a profound, powerful time in the sort of 2005, 2000 to 2010 timeframe. there was a moment when a lot of us were optimistic about what the internet would do. it was also the time when our uncle bob was sending everyone in his address book those emails that said barack obama was a

muslim. so, yes, we were connected, but we were connected now with misinformation. that was, i think, a beginning of the downturn. >> john, in the moment, let's not forget, donald trump steps in with the birther lie. the ground has been softened. maybe barack obama is muslim. maybe he is not american. donald trump effectively begins his political career with that lie. >> yeah, that's where it started. it came at a moment where not only was he getting air play on fox news but some of the smaller cable channels were starting to exist. i want to go one step further. now, sure, cable, fox news, still a big player, but it is more than that. it is tiktok. it's the venues have changed where there is no gatekeeping, no fact-checking whatsoever. we've seen twitter, x, moph into what feels like a wing of the trump campaign. it is easier for the lies to spread because of these venues. >> absolutely. you know, we've seen it in north carolina where i live with the response to hurricane helene.

it's just -- it is the great uniter that spreads misinformation, whether it's x or facebook. now, it's resulting in threats against disaster workers. it's really troubling. >> all right. >> on that happy note -- >> the book, "beyond the big lie." no, glad you wrote it. "the epidemic of political lying, why republicans do it, and how it could burn down our democracy." it is on sale now. bill adair, thank you very, very much. >> bill used an important word, gatekeeper. >> yeah. >> john heilemann, i remember roger ailes calling around and

asking whether he needed to move back along because of the rhetoric he even considered to be toxic. he ended up doing that. he talked to a lot of people inside and outside of fox news, saying, "is this really where we want to go?" so, you know, he, of course, has been portrayed as the king of disinformation by many, but there was an example of, you know, a fox news that even talked to obama. you know, he'd talk to obama. obama would express his concerns, and there was a lot of back and forth. again, i think it's just the complete lack of gatekeepers and the encouragement now at outlets to go further, go further, say more shocking things, lie all you want. it's fine. that brings in more viewers.

the more conspiracy theories, the better. >> right. you know, i mean, we're all -- everyone around here basically says we're all ancient, so we remember and cast a warm, nostalgic glow to the era where there were still gatekeepers. back in the day, there were things that were problematic about three big television networks and a handful of big national newspapers that really controlled, in a lot of way, the news and discourse in america. it was an exclusionary environment. there were a lot of problems with diversity, et cetera, et cetera. but there was still a powerful thing of kind of keeping -- maintaining a common set of facts that people agreed to. now, it is the case both that you pay no price in politics, joe, for lying. over the course of our adult lives, used to be, if you told a direct lie on a campaign, you'd be hung out to dry by "the new york times," "the washington post." now, you pay no price for lying,

and, to your point, on the biggest news source in the world, which is not any of these things, facebook, more people get their news from facebook than anywhere else, the algorithms are tuned to put up things that make you angry rather than things that tell you the truth. so politicians themselves are not incentivized to tell the truth, and the platforms are tuned toward conspiracy theory, toward conflict. not toward conciliation and truth. to live in a world like that, there are no gatekeepers, and all the incentives are in the wrong direction. that is a big part of why our political discourse is as messed up as it is right now. >> by the way, it's good to stop every once in a while just for perspective and look around, where we are on this journey. and realize that on sunday, donald trump said he wanted to deploy the united states military and national guard

against his political opponents, and it wasn't a screaming headline in any of the newspapers, anywhere. anywhere, anywhere. had that happened -- it's probably kamala harris' third question from oprah still haunting the campaign or something. that ten years ago would have been basically the equivalent of "war is over." whatever candidate said that would have been driven from the race. but we now live in an age where donald trump successfully numbed the editors at the major newspapers. he can say on a sunday, he can say on a sunday that he is going to use the military against his political opponents. brings up adam schiff, as jake tapper brought up.

like, not illegal immigrants. but against his political opponents on the left. and major media outlets yawn about it. >> if i may, they're harboring his threats. i mean, to not mention them, not cover them, and fox news to talk about how incredible he is and lie for hours and hours and hours to millions of people over the course of the years. now -- >> well, not everybody there does. >> not everybody there does. enough of it does. it's an ecosystem to millions of people that are either getting lies or not getting correct information because they don't cover it. but on top of it, what you're talking about is donald trump says something incredibly, incredibly disturbing and important for people to know and understand and take issue with, and it's not -- either it's not covered or it's supported.

imagine this. >> well, i wasn't -- yup. >> the other side, if kamala harris said it, it'd explode. >> of course it would. of course it would. i mean, i'm sure the headlines were all about how kamala harris has 75% from black men instead of 82% from black men, and the world is coming to an end. instead of actually saying, donald trump just said he'll have the military and the national guard go after its political opponents, people on the left, adam schiff, on and on and on. so i'm not talking about fox news. i'm not talking about aon, if they're still on. i'm not talking about newsmax. i'm talking about, you know -- >> i know. >> -- "the new york times." that's who i was talking about. you can bring up what you want to bring up. why wasn't that a screaming headline across the top of "the new york times"? >> they did the magazine that did that piece. >> what, about him wanting to arrest people like me? >> yeah. >> still, you can't go, oh, we

did one piece! >> yeah. >> when somebody -- >> all right. >> -- brings out a fascist approach, a fascist approach, and "the new york times," "the washington post", "the wall street journal" -- >> yawn. >> -- collectively yawn, i'm just saying, that's how it has happened. that's where we are. and that's why too many voters are still numb to just how dangerous these times are. still ahead on "morning joe," vice president kamala harris has agreed to an interview with fox news. we'll discuss why she decided to sit down with the network just weeks before the election. and whether it could move the needle with republican voters. >> bret baier, there's a straight shooter. >> i agree. >> neil cavuto is amazing. there are others who really pushed him.

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medical information over the weekend. the vice president is in great health other than seasonal allergies, near sidedness, and hives. i wonder what could be giving her hives. >> kamala harris this weekend released her latest medical

record, which states that she is in excellent health. it's great. just the words "excellent health" kind of feel like a dig at donald trump. oh, you know who hasn't released his medical records? donald trump. which harris pointed out. do you really want to see his x-rays? ♪♪ look at that. my goodness, gorgeous new york city. >> welcome back to "morning joe." how does t.j. do that? >> i don't know. >> is that a.i.? magic? he says it is magic. >> beautiful tuesday morning in new york city. jonathan lemire, eugene robinson are still with us. joining the conversation, we have chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker. and msnbc political analyst and publisher of the newsletter "the ink" available on substack,

anand giridharadas. good to have you all this hour. >> willie, couple things. the socialists that are running the white house, damn them, responsible now for -- because they're responsible for everything -- record-setting closing of the dow jones over 43,000, which is insane. >> 43, yeah. >> s&p also record levels. again, these clowns that are running around in theirgetting than ever before, somehow saying donald trump was better, no, no. listen, no. this is -- for those people, this is as good as it gets. also in sports, the mets and the yankees win. the jets could have made it a trifecta, but, unfortunately, they're the jets. but some good football, good

baseball played last night. >> huge bounceback win for the mets. they got smoked in game one out in l.a. they kind of had to have it, even for morale. lindor hits the lead-off home run, setting the tone. gosh, he's been so good. the mets take game two. that series tied 1-1, coming back to new york tomorrow night. the yankees got a great start from carlos rodon, went up 1-0 in their series. and the jets, it's a winnable division. might say a terrible division. patriots are terrible. dolphins don't have a quarterback. the bills even look a little shaky this year, though we know they'll be good down the stretch. they had a chance for a big win last night and couldn't get it done. jets lost. new york went two for three last night. joe, on your original point about the economy, the state of things, dow over 43,000. the noted commies at goldman sachs saying gdp growth will be stronger under kamala harris than it will be under donald trump, if their policies are enacted.

"the wall street journal" citing a huge group of economists, seven out of ten saying -- this is brand-new -- seven out of ten saying that a kamala harris economy will be better for america than will a donald trump economy. again, that's from "the wall street journal." >> yeah, not mother jones, not the nation, it's "the wall street journal." the economists being clear there. let me ask just on entertainment. i know we're all very busy, but, you know, i need a breakaway from this nonsense. >> yes. >> mika and i have been watching some shows a good bit. of course, "general hospital," "days of our lives." i don't know if those are still on or not. but i just notice, apple tv is, like, kicking it into another gear. got "disclaimer," which we saw the first two. >> whoa. >> amazing. "slow horse" is one of my favorite. >> love. >> strongest season, the finale

this year. if you haven't seen "slow horses," i mean, i can't say enough about how good "slow horses" is. we need to get mchercherin on. he was doing a business journal for, i don't know, maps and measurements or something, and was writing spy novels on the side. "slow horses" just took off after years. then, finally, "bad monkey." >> i love "bad monkey." >> vince vaughn very good. willie, you've had a chance. you have younger kids. i don't know if you had a chance to see any of these, but they're lining them up at apple tv. >> i'm a vince vaughn guy from way back it. it's great to have him back in the center of the culture. he is so good on "bad monkey." i haven't started "disclaimer "disclaimer"

yet. cate blanchett. you have "borat" and backstories. supposed to be great. cannot wait to see it. the most recent show i watched, because i have a 17-year-old daughter, two nights ago, i watched the season premiere of "outer banks." >> oh, really? >> it is a high school teen drama. i had a lot of catching up to do with j.j. or b.j. or some other kid. >> yeah. >> i'm pretty locked in there. >> is that like 2024's version of, what was that? >> it's a lot of attractive people who are, like, 30 but are supposed to be in high school. it's like "90210" but they're on an adventure. it's like a caper. >> wasn't there -- >> not 30-somethings. >> in north carolina. >> "outer banks." >> oh, i know what you're -- >> is it the same thing. >> katie holmes like 20 years ago. >> katie holmes! ♪ i don't want to wait ♪ >> we can talk about that later.

>> "dawson's creek," alex khorasan tells us. >> we're on tv. >> we're not yet. >> we are on tv. >> no, we're not. >> still in the break. >> i have to say one final thing, final thing. >> no. >> one final thing. >> what? >> sorry. >> listen, we go in and we're watching "disclaimer." cate blanchett, who is better? >> nobody. >> none. >> sacha baron cohen. >> so interesting. >> he delivers an incredible performance. do you know who completely blew us away? i know will blow viewers away. kevin. one of the most beautiful performances i've seen in a long time. >> are you okay? >> brought to you by

"disclaimer." >> do you have my covid? >> no, i'm fine. >> we'll talk about the red sox. >> want to do the news? >> i should do the news, yeah. >> you can if you want to. >> oh, next time. >> before i start coughing again. >> i'll be streaming "dawson's creek" over here, if you can do a solo shot on her. we've learned at 8 past the hour, kamala harris will sit down with fox news tomorrow. it'll be her first ever formal appearance on the network. anchor bret baier will conduct the interview. on social media, baier responded to questions from viewers, writing, quote, there were no preconditions to get the interview. no one asked the questions ahead of time, except me. no topic is off the table. if there is any editing, it'll be very minimal. vice president harris will sit down for a town hall discussion in detroit today, moderated by radio personality charlamagne

the god. host of "the breakfast club." the event is scheduled to last one hour and will be broadcast across nearly 150 radio stations nationwide. charlamagne confirmed the audience will be from the key swing state that will be allowed to ask questions. kamala harris, again, really putting herself out there, joe. if i may. >> you may. >> in contrast to the former president who won't debate. he cannot do a second debate. he will not do a "60 minutes" interview. he stays in interviews where people kind of help him along. >> looking at him swaying last night to the music -- >> what was going on? >> i'm still deeply, deeply disturbed by kamala harris' second answer on "the view." or what was before. >> what was -- >> i don't know what it was. i'm being sarcastic, everybody.

relax. gene, from charlamagne tha god to bret baier, i'm sure they hang out together. maybe just a dash of joe rogen thrown in there. talk about it. >> no, i mean, here you see the contrast, right? sitting with fox news. a hostile audience or a hostile place for her. i mean, bret baier is one of the people at fox news who actually is a journalist. nonetheless, it won't be friendly questioning. charlamagne tha god. audience will be asking questions. who knows what people will ask. she's putting herself out there in these situations. you contrast that, of course, with donald trump, who last night, and i'm sorry to go back to this bizarre evening, but who, last night, sits down to do this town hall with kristi noem,

the dog shooting governor of south dakota. first of all, she's in this weird obsequious way, always calling him "sir this" and "sir that." he gets through a couple questions, and people in the audience, because it is hot, have medical events. then he just stops. he plays music, this weird playlist for 39 minutes, according to "the washington post". we counted. 39 minutes. he stands there on stage swaying to the music. >> ymca, nice and loud. everybody! >> i try to imagine what the coverage would be like, what the headline would be like if, for example, say kamala harris did that. if she did anything like that. like, it would be two lines, screaming headlines in

newspapers across the world. >> turn the music up! >> donald trump does it. again, there are stories about it, but it's like, oh, well, yeah, he is that weird. then we sort of move on. this is not normal behavior. this is not a competent, normal person. this is crazy. there he is. >> if you're just waking up wondering what on earth you're watching right now, this is a donald trump rally last night in pennsylvania where there were two -- it was incredibly hot in the room, we're told by reporters who were there. people arrive early, stand up for a long time. there were two medical incidents where people passed out. they were both okay, thank goodness. after the second person passed out, donald trump decided it was time to stop doing the q&a for some reason. i think he sensed people had been standing and maybe were bored. he had his staff just play music for 39 minutes, nine songs, i believe in total, ranging, with

guns n. roses. he took with governor kristi noem and danced and swayed for 40 minutes, and then left and walked off the stage. truly a strange scene there. there's the playlist if you want to dial that up on spotify later. >> yeah. >> peter baker, it gets to a larger question. donald trump couldn't answer friendly questions from kristi noem in the town hall setting. hasn't done much interview. certainly not confrontational or adversarial interview in a very long time. wouldn't do the "60 minutes" interview. won't do another debate, on and on. what is your sense of things inside the trump campaign? what should we glean from the fact he won't really do anything other than a rally or an extraordinary friendly interview? >> he is not putting himself out there, no question. he likes to razz kamala harris for not taking questions, but, in fact, she's done more to take questions than he has lately. not just from friendly

interviewers. going on fox news is showing she's not afraid. she can take on an interviewer who doesn't have her best interest at heart, let's say. i think it's her way of daring him, sort of goading him a little bit, calling him out. he likes to portray himself as strong. that's his favorite word, strong. it's not strong to only talk to people who agree with you, and it's not strong to duck tough questions. she's trying to suggest, basically, she's willing to do what he is not. >> you know, anand, we're at such a pivotal time in this country's history. you could talk about the disinformation, the lies that the former president and jd vance have been continuing to spread about the 2020 election. you can talk about the lies about hurricane relief that's actually gotten in the way of fema and others helping people

who desperately need it in north carolina and florida. you can talk about the lies about dogs and cats that the republican governor and the mayor of aurora said is a lie. you can talk about the lies about venezuela gangs taking over aurora, colorado, where the republican mayor there said that's a lie. we could go on and on. but then you can talk about the autocratic threats that continue from donald trump about arresting people who oppose him. then, of course, saying that he was going to use the military or we should use the military and the national guard on people that oppose him on the left. people like adam schiff. yesterday, i put this up on twitter, because i've been thinking about it some time. when i talk to people that support donald trump, they usually have this three-step process. it fit very neatly into glenn

youngkin yesterday. the apologists, when you say, "hey, did you hear that donald trump said that, you know, fill in the blank, he'll use the military." yesterday, donald trump said he's going to arrest people he's opposed to. oh, no, no, he didn't say that. well, here's the quote. well, didn't hear it. here's the quote. then, if they're really cornered, they'll say, "well, he doesn't mean it." "new york times" does have a story on the front page where donald trump's own supporters thinks he is lying about doing all these autocratic things that he is threatening to do, as if he didn't try to arrest joe biden two weeks before the campaign by putting pressure on his attorney general. as if he didn't try with two different attorney generals to have hillary clinton arrested, to arrest other opponents. he's already done it. yet the apologists like glenn

youngkin continue and continue. before anand talks, i know we have people that just tuned in at 7:00, do we have the glenn youngkin -- can we cue up the -- >> great to actually watch that play out. >> i want you to see this, anand. see ow this plays out. ask yourself what grown man would debase himself this way for donald trump. then let's talk about it. let's play it. >> the apologist's playbook. >> you heard the language mr. trump used over the weekend. what do you think of this idea, quote, we have sick people, lad radical left lunatics, and it should be handled by the national guard, and if really necessary, by the military? is that something you support? >> jake, thank you for having me. what i want to make very clear is that it's my belief that what former president trump is talking about are the people that are coming over the border, that in fact are committing crimes, that are bringing drugs,

that are trafficking humans. >> yeah, he's lying here. >> that are turning every state into a border state. i'm a governor of a state that's not near the southern border. >> they talked about people on the left, so he's lying. jake is patient and polite. >> but that's not what i'm talking about. sick, radical left lunatics who should be handled by the national guard or military. later in the same speech, he said that one of the lunatics he addressed was congressman adam schiff. that's who he was talking about using the national guard and military against. >> why are you shaking your head, governor? >> enemy from within, people like adam schiff. >> again, jake, i can't -- >> i'm reading you his quotes. >> i can't speak for him. but i do think you are misinterpreting and misrepresenting his thoughts. i do believe, again -- >> who? you don't believe yourself. it's very sad, actually. >> a number of illegal immigrants come over the border in an unconstrained,

unrestrained fashion. the biden/harris administration allowed this to happen. >> let's, by the way, now, go to when donald trump left office. >> 15,000 violent felons in the united states. they have no idea where they are. that is what i believe the president is referring to. >> some of those that came in during donald trump's term, by the way. >> but i also -- >> i'm literally reading his quotes to you, and i played them earlier so you could hear that they were not made up by me. he is talking about, quote, radical left lunatics. one of the lunatics he mentioned was congressman adam schiff. i am talking about -- >> jake -- >> -- donald trump saying he wants to use the national guard and military to go after the left. that's what he's saying. >> i don't believe that's what he is saying. listen, you and i will argue about that. >> it's what he said. >> i'll suggest -- >> i played the quote and read it to you. >> it's what he said! >> you can wish he weren't saying that, but that's what he's saying. >> i mean -- >> that's exactly the playbook.

it happens over and over and over again on everything. >> i expected will ferrell's line out of "anchorman." we agree to disagree on the german meaning of san diego. i mean, anand, it would be funny if it weren't so dangerous. >> very dangerous. >> here, you actually don't have anchorman. you have orwell's "1984," where the first rule is not to believe your eyes or your ears and to lie and to follow what big brother says. this is all -- again, this is so extraordinarily clear. what are we talking about? we're talking about donald trump saying he's going to use the military or we should use the military, he says, or the national guard against people on the left who he says are crazy.

>> look, joe, you know, i think there's no question that there is a league of scoundrels at the top of the republican party who are willing to lie and cheat and steal to protect cult leader donald trump. i think what continues to give me pause is that we -- that clip will run on cnn. you will deconstruct this clip here. we will talk about it. at the end of the day, some pollsters will make some phone calls in the next few days, and this country, now fully exposed to the different tendencies, will again come out 50/50. i am less concerned, just the way i look at the world, about glenn youngkin's existence and character. >> same here. >> than i am about the fact that 50% of the total public, not necessarily people watching this show, but 50% of all people in this country, shown what you

just showed, would think that he had the better side of that argument. and so i think we need to think about, when you talk about kind of not trusting what you see with your eyes and hear with your ears, the condition of the body politic in this country is such that half of us, half of people we know, half of people you grew up with, maybe more than half of people you grew up with. >> a lot more. >> have gravitated to a view of the world that is not just about small government, not just about, you know, being weary of the unintended effects of social policy, not just hawkish against communism or whatever it was back in the day, bu half of this country has gravitated to mendacity as the most attractive political force they want to go with. half of the country is attracted to the notion that what you see cannot be trusted, what you hear cannot be trusted, information from any media source cannot be trusted. there's a lot of culprits to

that. we in the media have responsibility here. the republican party has responsibility. donald trump has responsibility. but this is a sickness that is kind of pan national. it is pan institutional. in the final, you know, homestretch of this race, i think that wave of people who don't believe in anything anymore, at least some of them need to be pulled back in to belief. >> let's talk about that. your piece is titled "kamala harris' last mile." i'm going to read one excerpt. you write this, "to win decisively in november and crush fascism, harris must, more than she and her party have in some time, tap in to channel the most powerful force in american life today, rage at the establishment. mistrust of a rigged system. cynicism about the hope of anything ever changing. the deflection from belief itself. many of the people the harris campaign is most struggling to win over and activate right now are tired, cynical, jaded, not feeling it for a reason. they are the once bitten, twice shy voters.

they're democracy's jilted lovers. people who once gave their heart to democracy but democracy neglected and neglected them. now, it's coming back around. saying, take me back, defend me. they don't feel what they used to feel. the last mile in this election," writes anand, "is the people who no longer believe." who they are they exactly, and how does the harris campaign win them over? >> look, this is a saturated race. most people are decided. idealogically. the most important last mile in this election is people undecided about voting itself. less about who they're going to go for. but about half this country doesn't vote routinely, right? that's the biggest group of people we're always talking about. we sometimes forget that. and the people undecided about voting itself, many of whom, you'd have to presume, are nominally for kamala harris or

like her world view more than the other one, but are not yet persuaded to care enough. i think what i hear from a lot of those folks, and i talk about in the piece, writing the last few books was on rage in different forms, is that the establishment doesn't see them, doesn't hear them. tells them fancy stories about things changing, and things don't change. hurricanes happen. climate change happens. financial crises happen. foreclosures happen. you know, things are promised, things not delivered. they're told to get an education. they go into $100,000 of debt it doesn't actually pay off. that level of cynicism that's out there is earned cynicism. and i think -- i tried to reflect in the piece on what doesn't work and what does. first of all, what doesn't. there's lecturing and scolding that tends to happen in october of election years, right? i don't think you lecture and scold these people, with all respect to the former president obama. i think, you know, booing is sometimes a form of voting. booing is telling us something. there is a lot of booing in the

last mile of voters. i think what you have to do is tell them a big, sweeping story of how america got in this state, how it got rigged, how the rich and powerful colluded to stop change for everybody else. block progress. how they have now put all their hopes in donald trump and elon musk and people like that. and how she can propose to smash that power grab and take things back for the people. but you have to overcome the notion, the instinct, that many people have, that i have encountered over these many years of reporting, this instinct, born of experience, that things will not change. she has to invite them in to a belief that they can. >> peter baker, the biggest question that emerged from last night's kamala harris rally in erie, pennsylvania, is why didn't she sway to music for 39 minutes? what is she hiding? setting that aside, she did something interesting for the first time. they played clips of donald trump using his words. she sort of said, look, this is what you would get if you have another four years.

it does seem to be, as a campaign aide noted, and other media outlets picked up, a little bit of a transition. when she became the candidate, there was a lot about joy, and there's still joy. she's also hitting on fear. she's suggesting the stakes of this election and leaning in on also what trump represents. talk to us about how you view that, that tricky calculus here, the combination, the needle she's trying to thread. >> she is. elections are about contrast, right? it's not just whether you like somebody or not. it is whether you dislike the other one. let's be honest about that. the truth is, a majority of the country has made clear it doesn't support donald trump. he has never won the support of the majority of americans, not for a single day. didn't win it in 2016. didn't win in 2020. didn't win it in approval ratings for a single day in gallup polling during his presidency, unlike any president in history, in the history of polling. he's never had a majority support of the country. the question is whether or not

for kamala harris she can reassemble the base of support that joe biden had in 2020, that included a lot of people who didn't particularly like joe biden, didn't particularly like democrats, didn't particularly want democrats to succeed on policy, but didn't like donald trump. you may not have been paying attention for the last four years because he hasn't been in office, and there may be a lot you tune out because you're watching "slow horses," which, by the way, is great this season, but the truth is, he is still there. the things you forgot, that you didn't like in 2020, are not only still there, but probably even more on steroids next time around if you re-elect him. if she doesn't make that contrast, she probably doesn't win over that very, very small slice of the electorate that may yet still be persuadable. i think to your point, yes, most of america, 95% of america knows what it is thinking and it is not open to persuading. the polls don't change dramatically. they're not reacting to debates, conventions, indictments or

convictions. she's going after in that kind of approach last night the very tiny, small part of the electorate that has not committed to her, but that is not likely to commit to donald trump. >> peter baker, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we're going to take a closer look at gen-z and the political power they could hold if enough of them vote this november. plus, it appears israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu is considering targeting iran's military infrastructure in retaliation for tehran's massive missile attack. we'll dig into that report as tensions continue to rise across the middle east. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

(♪♪) the best way to solve a problem is to keep it from happening. (♪♪) at evernorth, we combine medical and pharmacy data with behavioral health data to identify members in need of care. predicting and treating behavioral health issues quickly... while lowering costs for plan sponsors and members. that's wonder made possible. evernorth health services one hundred republicans who worked in national security for presidents reagan, both bushes, and for president trump. now endorsing harris for president. she came up as a prosecutor,

an attorney general, into the senate. she has the kind of character that's going to be necessary in the presidency. vice president harris is standing in the breach at a critical moment in our nation's history. we have a shared commitment as americans to do what's right for this country. this year, i am proudly casting my vote for vice president kamala harris. former generals, secretaries of defense, secretaries of the army, navy, and air force, cia directors and national security council leaders under democratic and republican presidents, republican members of congress, and even former trump administration officials agree: there's only one candidate fit to lead our nation, and that's kamala harris. i'm kamala harris and i approve this message.

pete g. writes, "my tween wants a new phone. and that's kamala harris. how do i not break the bank?" we gotcha, pete. xfinity mobile was designed to save you money and gives you access to wifi speeds up to a gig.

so you get high speeds for low prices. better than getting low speeds for high prices. right, bruce? -jealous? yeah, look at that. -honestly. someone get a helmet on this guy. xfinity internet customers, ask how to get an unlimited line free for a year. plus, a free samsung galaxy s24 fe. the pentagon confirmed a team of u.s. military personnel has arrived in israel. the defense department has also deployed the initial components for an advanced anti-missile system aimed at protecting assets in the region. it comes as the u.n. security council has expressed its, quote, strong concern following reports of u.n. peacekeepers coming under fire by israeli forces as fighting intensifies in lebanon.

it comes as the region braces for potential retaliation by israel against iran for the missile barrage launched into its territory earlier this month. "the washington post" reports that prime minister benjamin netanyahu has told the biden administration he is willing to strike iran's military sites rather than its oil and nuclear facilities. that's according to two sources who spoke with the paper. joining us now, honorable wendy sherman, senior fellow at harvard's science and international affairs, and served as deputy secretary of state under president biden from april 2021 to july 2023. madam ambassador, among other things, the pressure cooker between israel and iran, what are the implications all around and the challenges for the biden administration? >> well, i think this is a very, very tough time in the world, particularly in the middle east. >> yeah.

>> we don't want to forget ukraine, as well. but in the middle east, i think this is good news, if indeed "the washington post" story is accurate. that there will not be an attack on the nuclear sites or the oil sites. we don't want to see oil prices soar. we don't want to start a war, a wide war in the middle east, if, in fact, there was an attack on the nuclear sites. you know, mika, this goes back to the segment you just had. we're in a time where the world is turning after putin invaded ukraine. we have a new adversarial alignment of russia, iran, north korea, and china. we need to have a steady hand, not someone who will go off and decide it doesn't matter, we should use our nuclear capability. >> right.

>> we've seen in the bob woodward book concern about president trump's desire to use our nuclear capacity. certainly, the enemy within comments about using the military against american citizens is a cause of grave concern. >> if you could talk more about that, donald trump has made a number of statements that would be, i think, incredibly unsettling to our allies. whether it be the ones that you just mentioned or taking on his political rivals using the military to do so, having a day of violence, his ongoing discussions apparently that happened with putin after he left the white house, sending him covid tests. what does this look like if trump wins a second term? >> i think this looks very scary. we saw in the woodward book that jim mattis, the former secretary of defense, one of the toughest guys around, it's why former

president trump asked him to be secretary of defense. he was really known as a tough, tough guy. he went to the cathedral to pray because he was concerned that donald trump was going to set off a nuclear war. i think that if trump were president, he would probably have said to bibi netanyahu, go ahead. hit their nuclear sites. we'll deal with the aftermath afterwards. we cannot have that reckless approach to national security. hundreds of admirals, generals, captains, corporals, national security leaders, bipartisan, guys who never take a partisan stance, have come out and said a national security leader, they are concerned about a second trump term. we'd greatly be at risk. quite frankly, as a citizen, mika, what chilled me the most was the comments about attacking the enemy within. left-leaning people, mentioning

adam schiff, who is about as dedicated a patriot as you could have to this country. so i think we're in a very tough time, and i think your former segment, drawing these contrasts is important. kamala harris, i don't mean to be partisan here, she is steady. she is clear-eyed. she has experience. versus someone who, as we hear him speak in his own words, has a rather reckless approach to our national security. i think as citizens, we need to be concerned about that. we need to think about our vote going forward. one of the things we do is analyze where we are in the world, and we're in a very difficult place. we need a president who understands the complexity, who understands that we work with others, with allies and partners. we don't go it alone. we share the burden with others. we care about our military. we want to make sure our sons

and daughters don't get sent into battle in ridiculous ways. >> former deputy secretary of state, wendy sherman, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we should note, wendy will be featured tonight in a discussion hosted by harvard's john f. kennedy jr. forum, beginning at 6:00 p.m. eastern. the in-person event entitled "the presidential inbox," a discussion on the global priorities awaiting the next president of the united states. also can be streamed online so you can watch it. thank you very much for being on this morning. coming up, our next guest is a democratic lawmaker who is using the words of a republican to reach out to votes from both sides of the aisle in her battleground state. that's ahead on "morning joe."

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my record is one of specifics, not smiles. my record is one of performance, not promises! but i have no intention of standing on the record alone. we will continue winning the fight against inflation. we will encourage urban programs which assure safety in the streets. we will ensure the integrity of

the social security system and improve medicare. we will create a climate in which our economy will provide a meaningful job for everyone who wants to work. and as we go forward together, i promise you once more, to uphold the constitution and to do the very best that i can for america. god helping me, i won't let you down. >> that's a new re-election campaign ad from democratic congresswoman scholten of michigan. gerald ford was the voice you heard, who head the seat previously in michigan. congresswoman scholten joins us now. thank you for being with us this morning. tell us about the message you wanted to convey using gerald ford there. >> good morning. thank you so much for having me.

coming to you live here from an actual kitchen table in battleground west michigan. you know, the message is one of tradition. this is a bookend to the first ad that i launched about my deep west michigan roots and how, though some things are changing here in terms of party, many things are staying the same. gerald ford is a political role model of mine. you know, this is talking about my own record of bipartisan, solution-oriented, service leadership, but also the future, which is going to cling to those traditions of the past. >> congresswoman, let's talk about the state of michigan. obviously, vice president harris, who i understand is going to be in your district in a couple of days, needs to win michigan. she's putting a great emphasis on that state. we know it is incredibly close, looking at the polling. i think the harris campaign would tell you their internal polling has it tied, as well.

what will be decisive, not just in your district but in the state of michigan? what are voters waiting to hear there? >> yeah, well, you know, the path to the presidency truly does run through michigan. it runs through west michigan, as well. you increasingly cannot win statewide without winning in west michigan, without winning in my district. and the things that matter here are the things that matter at the kitchen table, right? the issues of the economy, housing, affordable health care, and the issue of reproductive freedom. there is no more greater economic decision that a family can make than whether, when, and how they're going to start a family. michigan codified the right to protect reproductive freedom with a ballot initiative in 2022. it's still top of mind for voters, that that can be taken away with a nationwide abortion ban. i hear about it all the time. >> congresswoman, one, of

course, major issue in the state of michigan is anything to do with the automotive industry. we've seen donald trump push an argument about evs, some of them not true, in what he's saying the biden/harris administration is requiring. talk about what the actually true. also, weigh in on the impact that argument is having as polls do tighten. >> yeah, absolutely. you know, michigan put the world on wheels, and we are going to keep it moving forward. here in michigan, we don't care what kind of car you want to drive. but if the next generation of autos will be made somewhere, we want them to be made in michigan. that's the point getting lost in a lot of people. this isn't about dictating the kind of car you want to drive, but it is fighting for adrive, but it is fighting for a competitive share of that next generation of vehicles. and we don't want to be left out. we don't want china running away with advancements in the auto industry. we want those to be made here.

it's rich that president trump is trying to own a record on the auto industry when he promised not a single factory would close in michigan under his watch and no less than three did. we lost more than 9,000 auto jobs when trump was president. the biden/harris administration is bringing them back. >> it means jobs, participating in the ef-economy means jobs. finally, let me ask you about the election in your state. obviously, all of the seeds of false information dating back to 2020, looking to 2024, suggesting there is something fishy with the election process. you have a strong attorney general in your state and secretary of state who said this election will be secure. are you confident it will be? >> we have the best possible leaders at the helm making it so and confident that folks are

going to try all kinds of political shenanigans and even criminal activity to do what they are willing to do unconstitutionally to overtake this election. that's why it is so critical that we take back the house so that we have a democratic majority that is committed to certifying the election results. republicans today will not commit, the speaker of the house himself will not commit to certifying the results of the election. here in west michigan it's not only a critical race, it's my race, too, a critical battleground where we are fighting for control of the house and open senate seat. there is almost no place in the country that is more politically significant, politically consequential than west michigan. those legacy ford republicans are remembering it's so important to a country over party. that's what's at stake this election. >> michigan is where a lot of the direction is.

we'll let you get back to the kitchen table cinnamon crunch toast, pop-tarts, wheaties, whatever breakfast is this morning. i want to talk a little bit about we mentioned vice president harris will be in michigan later this week, a lot down the stretch here, talking about her media appearances, "60 minutes," the blitz we saw last week, doing fox news with bret baier and jeff missing last night that her team is in negotiations with joe rogan, the leading podcaster in the world. sounds like a good idea to a lot of people who wouldn't to see kamala harris win this election. what's your view? >> we were just saying off air one of the things someone said when i was coming up in journalism is good interviews require friction. if it's two people just, you know, enjoying each other's ideas, it's pleasant but not necessarily entertaining to watch. kamala harris is a prosecutor.

she spent a lot of her time coming up cross-examining people. i think some of her strongest moments before this presidential campaign were in those senate hearings when she had hostile witnesses. and i think many often what happens in politics as we know is it's the people around you who want to kind of shrink wrap you when often candidates themselves are more fearless than the second and third tier staffers. i think it's great she has been out in a way she hasn't. in some ways there was a little bit of a kind of preserving the biden reticence, which she a different person than biden. there is no need to protect her from the public in any form. and so being out there as she was in the last week is great, but it wasn't super frictional. it was just being out there. a great first step. i think the next wave is friction. she has done fox news.

charlamagne tha god is not necessarily a layup for her. i think joe rogan would be fantastic. the reason why going back to the earlier conversation we had, the people in america who don't believe anymore, don't believe not just in a particular candidate, don't believe things can change, don't believe in the system, don't believe this thing about voting, you know, transforming things, don't believe the prices are going to come down because of politicians, those people sad to say often don't tune into a show like this because a show like this for them suggests a kind of belief in the system, a kind of establishment, faith that senators and congressmen are important people who should be listened to. those people are listening to podcasts out there that style themselves outside the system. joe rogan is a gazillionaire, so there is sometimes some issue with that portrayal. but those kinds of podcasts and other media forums cater to people who don't believe.

i think the last three weeks she has got to crush it with the people who don't believe again. >> there is also a perception she the woke candidate from 2019 with some of those beliefs. this would be an opportunity because i suspect a lot of joe rogan's listeners share that view, for her to explain how she is different and pierce some of that. great to have you with us as always. thank you. still ahead, an update on recovery efforts in florida as the biden administration sends hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to the storm battered state. "morning joe's" coming right back. ng joe's" coming right back

welcome back. fair pay activist lilly led better has died at the age of 86. she passed away on saturday in alabama. a former factory manager sued goodyear tire back in 1999 after she was tipped off that she was

earning less than her male counterparts. while she initially won the lawsuit, goodyear appealed to the supreme court and in 2007 the justices ruled against her because she filed her complaint too late after learning of the pay disparity. but her fight for pay equity led to the passage of the lilly led better fair pay act in 2009, becoming the first mer you're signed into law for president barack obama. i was at that signing in the east room. it was amazing. and her fight and that act was a huge part of the inspiration for the know your value platform where equal pay is a huge thing that we still talk about today because there is still so much work to do. so we're grateful for the work of lilly ledbetter. still ahead, back to politics with a look at the latest polling in the presidential

race. also ahead, a conversation about the consequences of lying and why republicans do it more. the founder of the fact-checking site politifact is here to explain. "morning joe" is back in two minutes. and boy, am i running. but i've got lead in my foot and spirit in my fingers. [cheering] [car rev] ha, ha, what a hit! and if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage, the cost to cover that... might tank your season. ♪♪ so get allstate, save money on auto insurance and be protected from mayhem, like me. [whoo] [cheering] every member of the military is tested for mental fitness except the commander in chief, who has the most responsibility in the world. and when a moment of crisis strikes, is this what we want in a president? unsure. - the origins of the uh... unstable. - hamas terrorist invasion...

unpredictable. - anonymous... it's time every president is required to prove their mental fitness. sign the petition for presidential mental fitness. healthcare for action pac is responsible for the content of this advertising. it's our son, he is always up in our business. is responsible for the it's the verizon 5g home internet i got us. oh... he used to be a competitive gamer but with the higher lag, he can't keep up with his squad. so now we're his “squad”. what are kevin's plans for the fall? he's going to college. out of state, yeah. -yeah in the fall. change of plans, i've decided to stay local. oh excellent! oh that's great! why would i ever leave this? -aw!

we will do anything to get him gaming again. you and kevin need to fix this internet situation. heard my name! i swear to god, kevin! -we told you to wait in the car. everyone in my old squad has xfinity. less lag, better gaming! i'm gonna need to charge you for three people. underdog. we have some hard work ahead of us, but here's the thing also. we like hard work. hard work is good work. and with your help in 22 days, we will win. we will win. we will win. >> i'll tell you if everything works out, if everybody gets out and votes on january 5th or before, used to be you have a date. today you can vote two months before, probably three months after. they don't know what the hell they are doing.

we will straighten that out, too. we will straighten our election process out, too, that's important. >> he got the date wrong there. >> the guy that told everybody that -- >> it's november. >> the election is january 5th said, oh, i don't know. they don't know what the hell they are doing. quite an event last night. >> that was. i was -- >> i was confused. >> i was very confused. a lot of good listening. the crowd gets together to see donald trump sway to music for, what? an hour or so? >> not sure what happened. he just swayed for like an hour. >> yeah. i think there was a medical emergency or two, which you see at the events. i saw it at doug's event thursday night. you take care of the person. you take them out. then you continue the speech. last night they listened to pavrotti and guns n' roses for about an hour. >> what a mix.

>> and peggy noonan and charles crowd hammer kept saying campus sucks. i mean, it was just again, it is so incredible these people who claim the mantel of ronald reagan or, you know, lincoln or ike or anybody. they just debase the party so much in so many ways you saw glenn youngkin yesterday, right, being interviewed by jake, and it was like you were watching clips of east germany 1986. oh, no, we're free. the soviet union doesn't -- and he just kept going back and he was lying. the interviewer knew he was lying. the audience knew he was lying. but it didn't matter. it was only great leader that he was focused on.

i have to lie. i have to shame all of my former business partners. i have to shame everybody that like his work doesn't like campaigns. i have to shame myself and just lie, a bold faced lie about the guy i'm supporting saying he is going to get armed troops to go after his political opponents on election day or else donald trump may get mad. that's -- that's where the republican party's been, unfortunately, for nine years and that's why they keep losing. >> yeah, the cultish behavior was on full display yesterday from that strange rally in pennsylvania that donald trump held where the sitting government of south dakota, kristi noem, took herself off the short list to be the vice president after talking about shooting her dog kept salling him sir and echoing whatever he

said. it was a bizarre dynamic. then glenn youngkin who is supposed to a mitt romney old school republican. jake tapper reading direct quotes, that's not what he said. no, i am reading his words. 14 your response to the words? we will play that in a few minutes. it was again where the party is now with three weeks to go until election day. and a lot of this is stylistic. into /* we will dig into what donald trump is telling, the lies to his supporters. >> i loved what you tweeted, the process a trump supporter -- >> a trump apologist. >> goes through when you try to actually present them with the facts. it's a process. you never get anywhere with them. >> it always is. and jake's interview with glenn youngkin yesterday really kind of showed it where, you know, and i hear this actually in -- i

heard it yesterday in my everyday life. >> hear it all the time. >> you go -- i want to say, my gosh, you know, did you hear what he said about arresting all of his opponents and shutting down cbs and, you know, and using the national guard and military to go against his political opponents on election day? and the first thing they say, this happened yesterday, oh, i didn't -- i didn't hear that. and then you go, well, he said it. >> here it is. >> here is the quote. let's play it for you. >> he said, oh -- >> waiting for you. >> yeah, yeah, yeah, he didn't say -- i mean, he didn't -- and here is the quote. that's exactly what he said. and then they -- and then if you finally get them to admit what everybody knows is the truth, willie, they will then go, well, he doesn't mean it. >> exactly. >> he says he is going to arrest all of his opponents, says he is going to shut down networks he

doesn't like -- >> use the military. >> use the military to -- but he doesn't mean it. he is just joking. not much of a joke. speaking of joke, let's go quickly before we get into the show and be entertained by glenn youngkin and jake tapper. >> you heard some of the language that mr. trump used over the weekend. what do you think of this idea of, quote, we have some sick people radical left lunatics and i think it should be easily handled by if necessary the national guard or if necessary by the military. is that something that you support? >> jake, first of all, thank you for having me. i guess what i want to just make very clear is that it's my belief that what former president trump is talking about are the people that are coming over the border that in fact are committing crimes that are bringing drugs that are trafficking humans and that are turning every state into a border state. i am a governor of a state that

is not near the southern border and yet i see the impacts of ten million people illegally coming across the border every day. >> that's not what i am talking about because he was talking about sick people radical left lunatics who should be handled by the national guard or the military and then later on in that same speech he said that one of the lup particulars he addressed was congressman adam schiff. that's what he was talking about using the national guard and military against, radical left lunatics, enemy from within, people like adam schiff. >> again, jake, i don't think that the -- again, i can't -- >> i am reading you -- >> to speak for him. i think that you are misinterpreting and misrepresenting his thoughts. i believe it's all around the fact that we have had an unprecedented number of illegal immigrants come over the border in an unconstrained, unrestrained fashion. the biden/harris administration has allowed it to happen. two weeks ago we had senior people from the national

security apparatus say there is 15,000 violent felons in the united states. they have no idea where they are. that's what the president is referring to. i don't think he is referring to ekt elected people in america. >> i am literally reading his quotes to you and i played them earlier so you could hear that they were not made up by me. he is literally talking about, quote, radical left lunatics and one of those lunatics he addressed was congressman adam schiff -- >> jake, jake -- >> donald trump saying he wants to use the national guard and military to go after the left. that's what he is saying. >> i don't believe that's what he is saying. listen, we are going to argue about that. i would suggest if you would -- >> i will play the quote. i lead it to you -- but that's what he is saying. >> again, joe, that is glenn youngkin -- >> wow. >> conventional mitt romney pro business republican twisting himself in knots to defend donald trump. they are lying about the

numbers. they are not close when he said 10 million illegal immigrants crossing the border. the number in september according to the border patrol as 54,000 which represented a low going back more than four years. >> yeah. and it is -- what's so fascinating is i would -- normally it's not really what donald trump said except for the fact what he is it talking about is fascist, right out of the fascist playbook, you use the military to go after your political opponents. i will say he did try to pressure the attorney general for everybody all these trump apologists right now are people who are ashamed to vote for donald trump but are lying about donald trump and saying, oh, we get through four years without him doing anything. we didn't, actually. we didn't get through january 6th. and also again for those that were -- call themselves proud reagan supporters or 41 supporters or whatever you have supported in the past, this is a

guy that pressured his attorney general publicly and privately to arrest hillary clinton. this is a guy that publicly and privately pressure his attorney general to arrest joe biden two weeks before the 2020 election. so we have been here before and republicans know it and they keep lying for him. again, i am sorry. what's in it for glenn youngkin? i never understood what was in it for him and what was in it for her people. >> these things don't end well for anybody. >> why have republicans been doing this for fine years? especially -- >> inexplicable. >> when you get to the point you are defending somebody -- glenn youngkin is defending the use of the army and the national guard against democrats.

against donald trump's political opponents. that's where we are. that's where america is. that's where the republican party is. three weeks from -- can i say it now? the election much our lifetime. the most election of our lifetime. if you have a republican party going along with all of the things they have been going along with and they can't seen say it's about policy because, you know, "the wall street journal" yesterday, "the wall street journal," not like the nation, "the wall street journal", the "business journal" for wall street in america, it interviewed economists. and almost unanimously they said, donald trump's policies would lead to higher inflation and a bigger deficit than kamala harris' policies and the tariffs keep getting crazier and crazier, 5%, 10%, 20%.

i mean, there is nothing about his policies that are good for anybody except, like, billionaires in silicon valley. >> republicans are so specific about things kamala harris has said five, ten, 15 years ago. they are so -- they remember it crystal clear. and yet you present him with something donald trump said to them at a rally or in an interview that they clearly saw, and they cannot admit it happened because it's usually something that is so against the norms or against what our constitution stands for or unlawful. and just again the hypocrisy is incredible. it's also frightening the things that donald trump is saying. also, they say she doesn't do interviews, she doesn't do this, she is not smart, she 14 not this, she is stupid. kristi noem, are you in eighth grade? what grade are you in, literally, acting like a child,

a child that would be put to the side and said you are going to take a time-out. here is the deal. kamala harris is doing an interview on fox news. you are running out of things to criticize. you have to make up stuff. >> they are making it up because you take that, you know, who is stupid? who was beaten so badly in the debate that he refused to do a second debate with kamala harris on fox news? who is now -- i mean, you know, he thinks the election is on january the 5th. he gets confused about world war ii. he thinks barack obama is president of the united states. you can go on and on about all of the things that he said. and swaying the music for god knows how long last night, he refuses to do a "60 minutes" interview. we know why. he refuses to release his medical records. while we are talking about just the latest outrage that he said on sunday, i say outrage, i don't know if it's

castastrophizing if somebody says we should be, like, fascists, use the military against our political opponents. that's what he said glenn youngkin, you he know it. everybody knows you are lying. humiliating yourself. the past week or two they lied about springfield. still lying about the 2020 election. continuing to lie over and over again. so it's pretty clear cut decision if you're a republican, if you're a conservative, if you're an american, and yet the polls say it's pretty close. along with mika and willie and me, we have the host of "way too early" jonathan lemire. nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner and chief political columnist, john heilemann, associate editor of the "washington post" eugene robinson. and, gene and jon have two

columns that fight tightly with the quick overview of the polls the last couple of days which really, if you listen to democrats, the worst -- i mean, the whiners out there, the worst couple days of polling literally since herbert hoover lost to fdr. so, please, i want to understand this political thing. i'm just a simple caveman country lawyer. tell me what have the latest national polls said of the last few days? >> tip tracking poll of likely voters finds kamala harris ahead of donald trump 49% to 46%. >> this, by the way, the most accurate poll in 2020. >> well, the whining is because, if you want to call it whining, i call it concern for the future of our country, that is within the poll's margin of error. >> exactly. >> latest nbc poll has the race tied at 48% each.

the latest abc ipsos poll, harris up two. and the gov poll finds harris up three. >> you heard the whining. >> it's not whining. >> it is whining. stop whining and get to work. >> yeah. >> seriously. you know, gene, in all of my campaigns i always said we are behind, we are behind, we are behind, like harris is saying we are behind, work harder. i am whining about kamala not up by five points so long as they work hard. i don't mind if one side is whining. what are you gonna do about it? get to work. your latest column you talk about how democrats need to stop doom scrolling. you know when reminds me of 2008 when people would nervously go on 538 every two or three

seconds. if the polls weren't going their direction por barack obama they melt down. thus, they continue to melt down. >> yeah, i, too, am old enough to remember 2008 when it was the same thing, if there was like a blip in obama's polling, people would just freak out and they are never going to elect him, it's going to be awful, horrible. course we know how that worked out. she has a narrowed lead in the national polls and the swing states are all within the margin of error according to the polls. we won't know which way they are swinging until we count the votes. so what are you gonna do? obsess on that and wring your hands and please go see your therapist. but in the meantime, go out and just work for her. you know? make phone calls with that phone

instead of using it just to scroll through the polling. it's not going to tell you anything new. in fact, she's got, she raised a $1 billion in three months and her campaign has maybe the biggest field operation, certainly that i have ever seen or heard of, thousands and thousands of field workers in all of the states, 2,500 in the battleground states alone. they should be in really good position with all of those hundreds of thousands of volunteers to get out the vote. and by the way, the election already started in a lot of states. so get up off the coach, go help bring this home because she is in a really good position to be the next president of the united states. >> your piece on this theme,

keep kamala and carry on. whether the current worrying is warranted or a case of political ptsd. we will let you walk through the piece a little bit. a lot of this is about 2016, is it not? democrats were feeling confident. donald trump was donald trump. who way he could be president. they learned the lesson the hard way that he could be. what are you seeing out in the field talking to people not just voters but inside the campaigns as well? >> there is some ptsd from 2016 and 2020 where the polling miss was bigger than in 2016 comprehensively. joe biden was up by large amounts and then we saw a four point polling swing, polling miss across the battleground states. so there is a lot of ptsd. i try to in this piece say there are reasons why democrats, there is a case for panic. there is a case -- there is data out there that should alarm democrats. you look at those things, when

you hear people like in michigan people telling people he is behind, that's a good reason to worry. numbers with african american and hispanic voters, that's a good reason to worry. what is not a good reason to worry, why you are bedwetting here and you have to calm down, i would put up a finer point on it, the race is tied statistically. it has been tied statistically since the democratic convention. harris got some ground from late august to mid-september. but we have been in a statistical tie nationally, battleground states the entire time. in the period of time from the democratic convention through the debate through to now, let's start with the democratic debate, harris is up three

points in the national polling. the debate she slaughtered donald trump, a second assassination trump on donald trump, war breaking out in the middle east, fed lower the interest rate for the first time in years. ten other big things happened. she is up by three supposedly in the national polls. one of the most helpful things in the last couple of days pause of this panic in the red party the harris campaign final think allowed david plouffe to talk about the data on both. i will tell you that david plouffe is a partisan and he fights for his team. but he is is not a bs 'er. and if you read his assessment of the data, it is i think as clear as both sophisticated and clear-eyed as anything anybody could say and the two campaigns don't disagree. he says if you see a poll with harris up by four points, throw it in the trash. if you see a poll that has trump

up by four points, throw it in the trash. it's a tied race. it's uncomfortable for democrats. it's a tied race. it's going to be a tied race to election day. it's going to be maybe the closest election of our lifetimes. everyone is going to be scared if they care about the future of the country. but don't read these polls in this kind of insane way over the course of this period of time because there is nothing to learn from them for about a month and there is not going to be for three weeks. race was tied. the race is tied. coming up on "morning joe," barack obama's 2012 campaign manager on the path to victory in 2024. that's when "morning joe" comes right back.

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♪♪ ♪♪ willie, your yankees, congratulations. a good start. but the day started, though, out on the west coast with the dodgers and the mets. and, man -- >> the mets. >> the mets, i -- >> the mets. >> talking to phil griffin. they lost 9-0 the first night. look at the 1960 world series where anybody that knows baseball knows that the 1960 world series ending with bill mazroski with that walk-off home

run against the yankees. in 1960, the yankees outscored the pirates like 57-24 or 54-27, something like that, and they still won the series. so 9-0, like, with the right team, that's okay. and the mets, i know it's going to hard to believe, i am getting to a point, the mets are one of these teams, like, all right, we lost 9-#. let's beat them 2-1 tomorrow. they did more than that and shows the character of the mets team. >> 9-0 means nothing. just one gym. 100-0, it's over. you have plenty of time to recover in a long serds and they did that yesterday in l.a. francisco lindor, who else, put the mets on the board early with a leadoff home run to open the game setting the game. breaking up that record scoreless streak by dodgers pitchers this postseason, they have been untouchable until that swing. the next at-bat the dodgers

intentionally walk lindor with two outs, runners on second and third, leading to this. with mark vientos and the bases loaded. >> to right center field. on the move. to the track. couldn't find it! it goes over the wall! grand slam vientos! >> pitched around lindor and got that vientos making the dodgers play. mets win 7-3 and tie the best of seven series one game apiece. teams now travel back to new york for game three tomorrow night in queens in the bronx. carlos rodon was great last night. a strong start to open the alcs for the yankees. struck out nine batters, walked none, one run, three hits over six innings of work. they need that from him and got it last night. the cleveland guardians gave up four once between the third and fourth innings on just one hit. it was a mess of wild pitches

out of the bullpen. solo home run there from juan soto. six walks, four wild pitches making the difference and moving the yankees to within three wins of theirs first world series appearance in 15 years. can you believe it's been a decade and a half? so sad. giancarlo stanton in the seventh, he has been great in the postseason. yankees beat the guardians 5-2 in their first alcs game against the team not named the astros since 20 # 12. still ahead on "morning joe." taking a look at the epidemic of political lying. why republicans do it more and, quote, how it could burn down our democracy. that conversation is next on "morning joe."

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just answer. did donald trump win yesterday? >> yes. >> he did win? >> yep. >> so will you concede -- will you concede -- if your opponent gets more votes, will you concede? >> i really feel bad for you, man. >> in springfield, they are eating the dogs. the people that came in, they are eating the cats. they are eating -- they are eating the pets of the people that live there. this was a tragic hurricane. this was maybe the worst hurricane we have ever had and he's got no money and we say, what happened to all the money? they were given billions for this. he spent it on illegal migrants coming into the country. >> just some of the lies. >> all lies. >> with major implications coming from former president trump and his republican party. nobody will say it's a lie. >> most people that he talks to give him a safe space and bubble

wrapping. >> so now a new book -- >> feelings hurt, they can keep -- >> how the lies are formed and spread. we know how they are formed. they come out of donald trump's lie. the epidemic of political lying and why republicans do it more and how it could burn down our democracy draws on interviews with politicians and experts in misinformation and analyzed the rise of political lying. joining us now the book's author and founder of the fact-checking site politifact, bill adair, profuser at duke university. >> we go back a long way. long profile of me when i was in congress and tried to make a tee totaling right wing congressman look good. you did a good job. >> you have a good memory, joe. >> yeah. so, you know, i have a good memory for some, you started

politifact, it was, like, a new thing. a fascinating thing, fact-checking. then we saw "the washington post" try to keep up with donald trump over four years and it was absolutely dizzying. you are looking at glenn youngkin yesterday with jake tapper. you look at the vice presidential candidate saying donald trump won the election in 2020. it's lies of omission. lies of commission. it's -- but it's just a flurry of lies. and i do wonder, if you get to a point where, for one party, the truth just doesn't matter at all, and we know politicians on both sides will skirt the truth, sometimes lie, sometimes put things in sometimes exaggerate. but here you have one party, one

candidate, lying so much, it really is hard to keep up with it. how does democracy survive? how does fair and open debates survive in this sort of orwellian environment on the right? >> well, it's scary, joe. and that's one of the reasons i wrote the book is to explore that. if you think about 15 years ago when i used to come on this show and talk about politifact, it would be a question of, like, is it a mostly false, a half true, and now it's just pants on fire, pants on fire. things have really changed. and so what i tried to do with the book is to explore the why. why do politicians lie? and how do they lie? and what is the partisan pattern? and one of the things that i admit in the book is that as a fact-checker, that i sort of hid

the pattern of lying and i begin with a scene of me on c-span when a caller calls in and says, which party lies more? and i lie and i say, well, we don't keep score. well, i knew, this was 2012, i knew even then that republicans lied more. and so what i do with the book is explore that, why that's the case, but also more broadly, why all politicians lie. >> in your career, bill, we were talking in the break about the evolution sort of lying, if you want to put it that way. a lie, take for example, the springfield, obamacare, lie, haitian immigrants are eating cats and dogs, the governor, the mayor of the town said patently false. ten years ago, 15 years ago, that auto would have lived in a dark corner of the internet. hey, did you see this in an email in all caps and different colors and fonts. now you have the former

president of the united states, the man who wants to be president again, elevating those lies to a presidential debate. so how did we get to that point where the conspiracy theories that were fringe before now are right at the center of the argument of the republican party? >> so i think there are a few things that have changed. one is i think the party has decided in many ways that lying pays off. one of the things i explore in the book is why do politicians lie? it's a calculation. i will gain more from this lie than i am going to lose. it's almost like points. so in trump's case, of course, he lies shamelessly. joe was saying he is, you know, "the washington post" counted all these lies over the years. but there is also an ecosystem that not only provides an echo chamber, but profits from the lies. you know, we saw in the dough minutian case that fox needed to

play along with the big lie about the 2020 election to remain competitive. and so it's different. it's not just that they are not challenging the lies. it's just that they are echoing them. coming up, vice president kamala harris leads donald trump among younger voters, but it's not a blowout. we will talk about that and the issues that could sway the election when "morning joe" comes right back.

san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love.

san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love. very positive day on the s&p 500. up more than three quarters of 1%. it will close at a new high 5860 or thereabouts. all the other indexes higher with the nasdaq leading. >> coming up, another day, another record set on wall street. the dow opens this morning above

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♪♪ ♪♪ one hour and they play

"dawson's creek." i'm not really sure what decade. alex, do you know? is that like in 2004, 2005? molly jong-fast, you know, what year was dawson's creek? >> 1998. i know this because i'm an expert on television. >> you're kidding me. was it that early? >> yes. kevin williamson, the great. my brother works for him. >> this came up because willie's daughter -- he's watching "outer banks," willie's daughter. it sounds an awful lot like "dawson's creek". >> it does. >> i just remembered it back there somewhere in the mist of time. this is why we have your on,

molly, 1998. >> right. >> it went off the air in 2003 and it stays with us still just like "abby road." changing the subject completely, alyssa milano posted a message on social media calling on women who have been sexual assaulted or harassed to write "me too" a phrase coined a decade earlier. the post quickly went viral with thousands of women sharing their stories. today the me too movement is still going in the fight against gender-based violence. with us tarana burke and molly jong-fast. thank you for your patience.

we greatly appreciate it, tarana. you know, it's so interesting, when you say me too, people think about harvey weinstein or bill cosby and think, okay, well, that happened back in 2017, 2018, 2019. i wonder when you see stories like sean combs, that might not have ever happened although you were talking about this a decade before harvey weinstein. >> there's no question. people say we need a me too in this industry or that industry and realize we have been living in it for the last seven years. we don't get to diddy or any of the things we've seen in the last seven years without the movement. >> talk to me about that moment

with the tweet and what happened after that. >> the moment with the tweet was absolutely a surprise. seven years ago, it was definitely shocking to see how fast it grew, but i was not surprised by the number. he mentions thousands. it was actually millions. there were 12 million responses across social media in 24 hours of people saying "me too" because this had affected their lives. >> part of it is lifting the veil of shame and secrecy. you worked in this industry, so you had seen all of the victims. what was that moment like? and what was it like for the victims? >> for a lot of people it was about finding community. people talk about the men who were brought down or the people who were called out, but they don't think about survivors who were finally able to release these secrets they were holding

inside and finding each other. when we look at me too, it's i see you, that happened to me too. it helps release that shame and shift your life. >> molly, let me ask you a political question, then love you to take it to tarana again. i wonder if you sense a political blowback from me too where we see a lot of really toxic stuff coming from mainstream political candidates, whether you're talking about jd vance or donald trump, and people celebrating it, men online especially celebrating this toxic culture. do you think that is somehow an extreme reaction to me too? >> i mean, we were talking about this during the break.

progress always has blowback. there's always backlash. you always move two steps forward and one step back. certainly trump world has dug in on misogyny and that's been a hallmark of the bro culture. i think pulling the veil off has been really important. i was wondering tarana, if you could talk about this global movement for me too and what that means. >> me too was always a global movement, to be fair. when it went viral, people coming from around the world saying, we're doing this work here or how can we bring this work here? we work better together. what can we do together that we can't do separately? so we started the me too global network just a month ago we

announced, because this is an issue that's happening to people globally and the united states is on the globe. often times we don't think of ourselves as part of the problem. so we wanted to be inside of it to find solutions with people that this is happening with across the world. so the network is across 34 countries. we have 133 organizations across 34 countries. it's the breadth of sexual violence, whether it's child sexual abuse, child marriage, fgm, whatever's happening to survivors across the world we're concerned about, but we want to find solutions. we don't want to just amplify it. there's enough awareness. now it's time to figure out how to solve this problem. >> thank you so much. we greatly appreciate you being here. >> thank you. turning back to the presidential race where kamala harris and donald trump were

campaigning in battleground pennsylvania yesterday, gabe gutierrez has this report. >> it's good to be back in pennsylvania! >> reporter: overnight, both presidential candidates in pennsylvania. >> we win pennsylvania, we win the whole thing. >> yes. >> reporter: former president trump cutting short his town hall following two lengthy interruptions because of medical episodes in the audience as many complained about the heat. >> would anybody else like to faint? >> reporter: and turning into an impromptu deejay session. >> let's just listen to music. who the hell wants to hear questions, right? >> reporter: running through his favorite hits -- ♪ it's fun to stay at the ymca ♪ >> reporter: there's new backlash to trump's response when he was asked about concerns election day would not be peaceful. >> i think the biggest problem

is from within. we have some sick people, radical left, lunatics. it should be very easily handled by, if necessary, by the national guard, or if really necessary, by the military. >> reporter: vice president harris playing that clip at her rally adding -- >> donald trump is increasingly unstable and unhinged. >> reporter: vance, meanwhile, defending his running mate. >> if you have an amazed reaction to an election in 2024, of course you ought to commit law enforcement resources to bring order back to our city. >> reporter: election officials are hoping to avoid the long lines and hourslong wait times of four years ago. former president clinton is stumping for harris, reaching out to rural voters. is this the same democratic party it was years ago? >> interestingly enough, it's

not as different as people think. >> gabe gutierrez with that report. we have jim messina. he served as white house deputy chief of staff to president obama. eugene daniels, jonathan lemire and molly jong-fast with us as well. jim, i remember in 2022 -- and yesterday we played the clip of all the red wave projections, democrats freaking out, republicans openly and so-called independent reporters mocking democrats about how badly they were going to get beaten. i was thinking of that time yesterday when four polls released. three of them had kamala harris up three points, and the nbc

poll had it tied. i spent a day and a half talking people down, like talking people down, as if the stock market, like, had crashed in 1929. there's the nbc poll. it shows a tie. the daily tracking had a three-point lead. this is abc news poll, two-point lead. i know these national polls don't matter, these national polls don't matter. but, you know what, i don't want to hear people say the national polls don't matter when harris is three points up, yet they melt down when it's a tie. i remember 2022, you left the set. i said is there going to be a red wave? you go, i don't know, i don't

know. i'm not going to watch tv until 8:00 or 9:00 tonight because everything before that is going to be wrong. it's like the fog of war. here we are three weeks out. i would love your cool-eyed, obama assessment of what's going on in this race. >> we should get paid to be therapists for all of our friends currently losing their minds. this election is consequential. we understand the threat to democracy that's in front of us. that said, if you look at the battleground states, if you look at the path to 270 electoral votes and you look at who has room to grow -- you and i have talked about this in the past, joe, donald trump is not moving in any one of these polls. yes, we're a closely divided country, yes, both countries have about 48% and we're fighting over the rest. when you look at who has the

ability to get to 270, it's harris. she still has room to grow here. she's still getting more popular. people are still getting to know her. i look at the early vote numbers and their votes are coming, exactly kind of what the harris campaign has to happen is happening on the early votes. look, it's going to be super close, but i'd rather be us. >> no cheer leading here, no cheer leading needed. if we're wrong, we can play the tape the next day after the election, i don't care. i've just got to say, please, if i'm wrong here, let me know, but i'm really talking, again, to those democrats who are freaking out right now not in the campaign, because the campaign is like, it's gonna be close, we're feeling good. i'm talking about all the monday

morning quarterbacks. so let's say the race is tied, let's say the polls are about right, this race is tied in the seven swing states, you know, just the old politician in me, first question i ask is, who has the better ground game? second question i ask is who's the base that's going to come out, and are they going to be able to get them out? i look at the big headlines in the "new york times," you know, black men and hispanic men may not be voting as much for harris. of course, a cbs poll actually showed her up at 87% among all black voters. so that's the question the "new york times" is bringing up. yet harris has a record number of white, college-educated voters that are supporting her

now more than any republican in, you know, modern history. and then you add on top of that the fact that, again, like you said, trump has been pretty much stuck at a ceiling, i just -- the blocking and tackling of this, i think, favors harris. >> joe, it absolutely does. sitting three weeks out, one of the two things you want, you want a really big advantage on the ground game and you want to be talking to swing voters. the harris campaign is going both of those things. they have a massive ground game that jen o'malley dillon has built. what's the trump campaign going? they have outsourced their entire field operation to the super pacs, which i think is a mistake. then you have donald trump dancing on stage to "ymca."

it doesn't make any sense sitting three weeks out. >> i was watching donald trump dance for 39 minutes on stage, just dance to the music. this is "ymca." there was pavroti. there were people overcome by the heat. they fainted. he decided to end the q&a session. he stood like this for 39 minutes for nine songs as everyone clapped along wondering what was going on. and then he exited the stage and that was that. that was donald trump last night in pennsylvania. let's talk about vice president kamala harris, what she's been up to, what she's about to do,which is a sitdown interview with brett bayer on the fox news

channel. talk, if you can, about the strategy going into places that will be less friendly than last week? >> brian fallon, who's a senior advisor for communications on the campaign, kind of previewed when he came on the playbook podcast, not as popular as joe rogan, but people still listen. he told me they were going to do things people were surprised by. we saw the call her daddy podcast. people were surprised by that. now you're seeing this second stage, i guess, of surprise sitdowns. we talked to the campaign. they say she reached 20 million voters in the things that she did from thursday to monday, everything that she did that week reached 20 million voters, which is a huge chunk of people seeing and hearing vice

president harris. now you have her going into places that you often wouldn't see harris. they're looking at the different constituencies that pay attention. you have howard stern. if she does joe rogan, she's aiming right at young men, which is a constituency that polls show not just her, but the democratic party is getting a little shaky on and they seem interested in donald trump. but you also have her going to fox news. you have people wondering if she would ever do that. you have pete buttigieg from the administration going on quite a bit through the years. you also have tim walz go on. she's saying we're not scared to go into what folks might think is enemy territory and have the

conversation, right? it defanged some of the attacks republicans have on vice president harris, because the place that they trust, fox news, is unlikely to do anything to help vice president harris. bayer tweeted it was going to be live, that they were not going to cut it, that it was going to be as-is. it's important for people trying to reach voters. >> brett bayer is a good interviewer. if you're a fox news audience, you probably have a view of kamala harris as a wild san francisco leftist. that's how she's been portrayed. >> we saw governor walz on fox recently. now the vice president will do

so tomorrow. it is a significant move. contrast that with donald trump, who hasn't sat for any interview of any consequence of any aggressive questioning in months. he swayed for 39 minutes last night to music. the harris campaign is painting his avoidance of questions, his refusal to put out any medical records, there's the perception that he's a coward, that he's only thinking about himself, not americans. that seems to undercut what trump believes is his greatest political weapon, his strength. >> what they're doing with these media outlets, going to joe rogan and fox, there are people who listen to joe rogan who have never heard vice president

harris speak. they are trying to puncture these media silos to get her out there, because they feel she is being misrepresented in these media outlets. i think that's fair. you can't ask for more from this campaign than sending her everywhere, than having the surrogates everywhere. and she has all these presidents who can go on the campaign for her. donald trump doesn't have any presidents or even his old vice president. >> weird. so before his weird music listening zone out, donald trump took some questions in last night's town hall, including one from a restaurant owner who wanted to know what trump would do to help small businesses. >> that's important, because kamala harris has talked about -- >> she's got the $50,000 -- >> $50,000 tax break for first-time small business owners. so yes, this is an important

question. what did he say? >> here's his answer. >> so go ahead, because small businesses are actually bigger than big businesses when you add them all up and it's very important. sounds like yours -- i would love your food. i can tell by looking at that guy. i'd like to go over there by him. if i'm there, i'm going to stop -- the fact is they want to get away from gas. i have friends that are into the cooking world -- i'm not. i just like to eat. but they're into the cooking. i don't know how you feel. they feel gas is much better than the electric for cooking. they have this thing about, you know, they want to put gas out of business, no gas. you know the amazing thing, we don't have electric in this country. we have all the gas you could use. we have oil and gas. even the cars they want to go with all electric cars. california is having blackouts

brownouts every week, but they can't even supply what they have. it's so nuts. we're going to get, number one, your utility -- you heard me say it before, your costs are down. if you want electric, great. if you want gas, great. the only thing you can't have is a hydrogen car. they have a new car, they say it's great, but they got one problem. do you know what the problem is? it could blow up. it's the new thing hydrogen. they called the wife. that's not my husband. yes, it is. your energy costs will be down by 50%. your interest is going to come down. not only you, but people will have more money to go to your restaurant. you're going to have a great business. >> this is what i was talking

about on friday. it's not even the weave, lemire. it's a bunch of bs. i'll try and contain myself, but this aging bs artist is trying to not answer the question because he has no answer. he has no answer! and people are okay with this, but they go after kamala harris' one question from four years ago where they don't like the answer, but she answers the question. this man was asked what he would do for small businesses. he said small businesses are smaller than big businesses. >> bigger than big businesses. >> oh, he said they were bigger. then he said he loved food and he likes to eat. we can see that. we doesn't need to say it. >> jim -- >> hold on. then he talked about gas being better than electric.

he talked about gas a lot. i don't know what the gas issue is. then he goes on with electric cars, this and that. no answer. jim messina, how does the harris campaign break through to people about what is happening here with what donald trump is saying in his interviews and on stage, whether it be live or whatever that was? >> well, you saw kamala do this yesterday when she started playing his clips from rallies. she was talking about the democracy stuff you showed earlier. let's just talk about election day and democracy and what he wants to do here. you're seeing the harris campaign do exactly what you were talking about, mika, by seizing on these moments to say this guy is not in it for you. he's absolutely not going to be your president. he's going to be his own president. i think you'll see in the next

three weeks them continue to pull apart his statements to make their closing case to this small number of voters who are undecided on this race and who could decide this election. >> that was not a trick question. that was how could you help a small business. if you don't have that in your back pocket -- to say it again, united states produces more crude oil than any country ever. last month, another headline, "u.s. oil output notches fresh record in august." he talks about drill, baby drill. boy, is america drilling right now. as many have said, the future is electric in terms of cars. let's be part of that future. let's not let china steal all of it from our workers. >> that's right. if you talk to liberals, if you talk to people who don't want

the country to drill, they're very unhappy with president biden and vice president harris because of how much drilling is happening right now. that goes to show what former president trump is saying is not true. it's also a reminder of, you know, i think often about when savannah guthrie did this interview with him and was talking about his tweets and saying you're not just someone's crazy uncle. it sounds like it doesn't always have to be based in facts. obviously the question that was asked is one of the most important questions facing the american people today because so many of them are looking at ways to supplement their income. people want to start small businesses because it is also part of the gig economy. a small business doesn't mean a brick-and-mortar shop. there are other ways people are

trying to do that. vice president harris released some numbers this week about how much loan she would forgive for businesses and others. president trump has not talked about that. he's talked about tips and not taxing those. folks don't have a good sense of what he's going to do on the economy when vice president harris is getting attacked for not saying enough. the harris campaign has been frustrated at what they see as this double standard of what trump did on stage, what vice president harris did on stage and then the media and us and what we cover and look at. i think they're right as well. >> i mean, it's a raging double standard. it's judged by two completely different curves. it's crazy. i've been to so many through my years in politics, republican

debates, whether it's for city council or county commissioner or state legislature, congress, senate, and watched presidential debates. if you're a republican, that small business question is like the first question you're going to be asked. in my 30 years of going to republican forums on local, state, national levels, that is without a doubt the worst answer to the question of how do you help small businesses. republicans, that's a1 in our jukebox. it's played the most. this is what you do, right? but this year it's kamala harris who actually has the plan to help small businesses out. so much of this is just not breaking through. forget about the voters. in the media.

>> that small business owner went home and learned that for his small business donald trump likes to eat. there you go. >> also don't buy hydrogen cars because you might get blown up. >> what a joke. >> three weeks from today is the election. we are finally in the fourth quarter here. what are the keys to the final run on who wins, who loses? >> the enthusiasm number about which side voters are more enthusiastic is what i look at. i hate national polls. i want to know whose voters are enthusiastic. harris has an almost ten-point lead on that. that's the most important thing, because you want your voters to turn out, vote and persuade their friends. it's now a turnout game and a

persuasion game. you have a democratic side of the campaign that is built to do both. i'm not sure what the trump campaign is built to do. >> jim messina, eugene daniels and molly jong-fast, thank you all very much for being on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," donald trump has made tariffs a central part of his economic plan, but now he's saying they're just a figure of speech. >> when he was asked about child care -- >> no. >> -- was that just a figure of speech? and he's going to get rid of the affordable care act, and he has plans that are sort of cooking? this is crazy. >> you can't really know exactly what he's saying and if he means what he's saying. we'll show you those remarks specifically. and from "happy days" to

"night shift" henry winkler's career has been defined by his extraordinary comedic talent. he joins us next on "morning joe." he joins us next on "mornig joe.

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♪♪ learn more at dexcom.com san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love.

san francisco is in crisis and we need real experienced leadership. we need mark farrell. our interim mayor who got things done. who showed we can clear tent encampments, fight crime, and address the drug crisis. who will make the tough choices for our city's future. "i'm mark farrell. i'm running for mayor because san francisco deserves better." "i'm ready to deliver that change on day one." mark farrell. a proven leader with the experience we need. san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love. season of "american horror story" which debuts today on hulu. you saw it there, starring the great henry winkler as a

mysterious doctor. winkler also outside with a new children's book in his series "detective duck, the case of the missing tadpole." the emmy winning actor, writer, producer, henry winkler is with us in studio. there's nothing left to say. >> thank you so much. >> you are a very busy man. >> i am. >> so much of it is in the family. we're going to talk about your wife and daughter's podcast in a minute. let's talk about how you got this job on "american horror story." >> my son i took him to see a wes anderson movie "bottle rocket." he said i'm going to be a director. he kept his word. he became a director for

"american horror stories" and he hired dad. >> tell us about this character. i mean, "american horror story" is always good. tell us about the doctor. >> let me just say he starts off lovely and that's all i can tell you. i can also tell you i'm in it. no. they have got me so buttoned down, i can't tell you how with a scalpel that i go after people. >> what was that dynamic like working every day with your son, with him being in charge? >> he's very strict. i am an ad libber, because i have trouble reading. dad, respect the writer. there is an exclamation point. use it. okay. okay. and then a classmate of his,

matt spicer, who spent most of his school life in my house eating us out of house and home was my director. now i'm working for these two guys. it was wild. >> you and i had a chance to sit down a few months ago at katz's deli. >> we did. >> it was a delicious meal talking about this become "being henry" is went onto become a big best seller, now out on paperback. >> if the large version was too heavy for you to carry in your purse, you now have a bendable buddy. [ laughter ] >> stories from your career, your childhood.

what was the journey like for you to tell the story from start to finish? >> again, we have three children, zed, zoey and max. i met a man named james. i had to fly this man out to california. yen that was part of it. i spoke to him for about 70 hours and we crafted the book together. >> i'd like to go to another book which i assume is autobiographical "detective duck." >> somebody said write books for

children. lynn oliver and i got to together. this is for emerging readers. she dreams about being a detective. she is the only duckling that has a beaver for a dad. she's also a environmentalist. she finds a problem in their beautiful pond and then she uses her detective skills and her friends to keep her pond healthy. >> this man is prolific. >> he's incredible. >> when you sat down to write this book, you realize something that i realize every day. you said i'm half baked.

i still have more growth ahead of me. i still have to make myself a better person. talk about that when you've spent your entire adult life in the public eye? >> yes. i finally realized that i saw finally my brain was soldered shut. nothing left my brain and swirled into my body because i was cut off. i was half baked. i was like a cupcake you put in a toothpick to find out if it's done. i was not done. it takes courage to want to grow, but the freedom you get

from opening up is amazing. >> and longevity is amazing as well, because every day you're learning. >> that's true. >> the mistakes -- i'm talking about myself here -- the way you need to improve and you look back over it and it really is something. that's what i love about your book. i want to ask you something. let's go back to the very beginning because it's so relevant right now. your parents escaped germany. >> yes. >> they were german jewish immigrants. they escaped in 1939 right before the war started. anti-semitism already raging across germany and no one could have imagined how bad it would have gotten. >> right. >> keeping politics out of this,

this is not about israel, netanyahu, this is about the 15 million jews on the face of this earth still dealing with anti-semitism in america, in europe, in russia, across the world. your parents escaped it in 1939 and yet we're still here, respect we? >> we're still here. you start with you take books out of the library, you demean education and then people forget and history repeats itself. i do not want to replace anybody. i'm having a really good time in my own space. i haven't really met anybody who said i want to replace a lot of people. i don't know anybody. it is like a made-up thing, i promise you. if i meet you, i'll buy you a

cup of coffee as opposed to taking your house. >> education is key. >> critical thinking, that is the infrastructure we need more than anything. >> amen to that. your wife, your wonderful wife, your wonderful daughter starting a podcast. >> yes. >> what are we going to hear? >> what is with the winklers? it is something like that. [ laughter ] >> you can't miss it. winkler is in it. it premiers on my birthday october 30th. what in the winklers? it's so scary. they do it in our house, and i'm

afraid to go in the room because it could be that they are destroying me. i don't know. >> we did ask you what it was about. you said, that's a great question, i have no idea. i've been told it's called "what in the winkler." sixth time is the charm. we figured it out together. >> zoey called me last night. she said, dad, get it straight. >> "what in the winkler." check that out. also the new season of "american horror story" debuts today on hulu starring henry, directed by his son. "detective duck" is on sale today and the paperback edition of henry winkler's memoir "being henry" is on sale today.

come back any time you like, henry. thank you so much. coming up, majority of economists believe former president trump's policy would lead to higher inflation than vice president kamala harris. we'll speak to andrew ross sorkin about that new survey next on "morning joe." t new sury next on "morning joe."

the threat of a 200% tariff would stop them -- >> of course. >> you don't have to actually do it. >> i don't know how i said 200. i'm using that just as a figure of speech. i'll say 100, 200, 500, i don't care. they're not going to bring cars into this country from mexico and destroy what car companies

we have left. >> that was former president trump saying he's proposed a tariff policy as a, quote, figure of speech. meanwhile, economists expect higher inflation, higer national interest rates under former president trump more so than those proposed by kamala harris. that's according to the "wall street journal" and a new survey of 50 economists. 65% think trump's policies will add more to the nation's deficits compared to kamala harris. it's not even close. and 59% said trump's proposed tariffs would lead to higher unemployment and lower employment. 61% anticipate higher interest rated under a second trump term.

45% expect economic output to expand faster under harris. andrew ross sorkin, we have a lot to talk about. willie and i were talking earlier about the dow and the s&p reaching new records. >> yep. >> all-time highs. good luck with your friends around you that talk about how biden and harris are socialists and things are going well. this is the small government conservative in me, i know it seems mundane and nerdy to people. this is a story i'm most interested in right now. that is nobel prize economics award goes to the study of nations' prosperity.

andrew, you'll just be shocked. capitalism works. freedom fosters innovation. autocracy are more autocratic type government, i will not hide it here. people talking like donald trump saying we're going to take all the power and consolidate the power inside the white house. we have autocrats actually inhibit innovation. and finally institutions matter. that's what these economists said. institutions matter. donald trump and his cronies have been talking about tearing down institutions. they call it the deep state. they want to fire as many people and tear apart as many institutions as they can because trump has said he wants to consolidate power in the white

house. edmond burke, the founder of conservatism as a movement, talked about the power of institutions and that institutions that are built up over centuries by compromise, by custom, by convention, by prudence, that's how you protect countries and economies. burke warned that radicals can tear down in one day what has been built up over generations by compromise and convention and custom. it's something too many people in my former party don't want to hear. i don't always agree with nobel prizes that are awarded. this one gets it right. it's about freedom, innovation and the importance of institutions. >> and, by the way, the whole

idea that industrial policy is not the right answer. you have a republican candidate who is for industrial policy, which is a real break historically for that party at a minimum. you have these 50 economists and the data is clear. i know in an age of misinformation experts seem to get discounted, which i'm always surprised by. here we have 50 economists clearly talk about higher inflation. what have we been talking about? the entire campaign. the entire question of this election has been about inflation. former president trump and republicans have talked repeatedly about how they feel that inflation has been a

runaway issue because in part they blame the democrats. here we are in a situation where inflation in the united states has come down remarkably over the past 3 1/2 years. if you listen to the economists, based on what former president trump has said, we would have -- i was talking to governor glenn youngkin from virginia. he said, can you imagine what the world would be like with another four years of kamala harris or the biden administration. i think, if you think about what the last four years were to be like and you look at that trend line and if it were to continue, where trend line were to continue, where would we be? i would think somebody like him would be very happy. you wouldn't have -- >> like, what does he want? the dow at 80,000? can you imagine what would happen? you look at, again, i know that

politicians are afraid to say this. but america is the envy of the world. our economy is the envy of the world. britain envies us. france envies us. germany envies us. we have crushed china. yeah, it was getting close to a neck and neck race four years ago, five years ago. no more. no more. we got $27 trillion economy, they have an $18 trillion economy. they got a demographic time bomb going off. they have so many troubles ahead of them. the united states economy over the past three years has done nothing but go up. we are the envy of the world, talk to any world leader and they'll tell you that. >> and so what makes all of this, though, to me, so surprising, in terms of how you're looking at these economists, saying what they're saying and then looking at polls and increasingly i'm not looking at betting markets, and for reasons that are somewhat

inexplicable to me, you have folks out there saying that on the economy, on the economy, they think that the former president trump would be the better candidate. and that, i think, you know, if you marry that up against the economists, it really raises some questions as to why is that the feeling in the country? and then you look at these betting markets, and the betting markets right now, to the degree you believe that they're accurate, are really showing action of former president trump today if they're right, would win. >> well, we shall see. three weeks to go. a lot of campaigning to do. and cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. we appreciate it. this morning, we have a look at the new short film titled "the power of z" which chronicles a journey of the generation it is named after and the sense of shared frustration felt by a lot of younger americans today.

>> we had such a huge rise and, you know, in issues with mental health, suicide as high as it has ever been in this country. i feel like a lot of people feel stuck, just, like we're trying really hard to pull ourselves out of this hole and we're not sure who dug it and sometimes it feels like we're digging it ourselves. there just has been this sort of like never-ending setback, like running as hard as we can to stay in the same place. >> meanwhile, older adults, boomers, manage to navigate the turbulent last quarter century in effortless stride. when they seek to reassure us about our financial angst saying it will all be okay, it will get better, we wonder, really? really? because it sure doesn't look that way. >> they created a lot of problems and they're looking at gen z to fix it. it is kind of really hard now just adapting just to life in general and like they said, like, we're going to drown, we're drowning with trying to keep friendships, spousal relationships, keep a job. it is kind of overwhelming.

>> joining us now, the film's executive producer john delavolpe, he's an msnbc contributor. john, good morning. great to talk to you. let's remind our viewers first who gen z is, what their ages are and what you found in putting this film together, their concerns, especially now as they head to the ballot box. >> thanks, willie. textbook definition would be members of gen z are young people born between 1997 and 2012. but for the purposes of this coming election, there are young voters, new voters, many first time voters, generally folks under the age of 30, i'll put in that broad bucket of gen z or younger millennials. in the point of the film, we come here, i come here, we talk about data, but we're trying to show the humanity, the origin story of this generation. and in our belief, as you know, you've been so supportive over the years, unless you can

understand where young people are coming from, unless you understand the impact that these events have had shaping the lives and values, it is impossible to build a relationship specifically rebuild trust. the purpose of this film is to share those struggles by younger people so they feel heard and hopefully feel empowered to participate in politics and government moving forward. >> and, john, that's just it, right? for so many elections there has been this frustration, why don't young people do more, why aren't they more involved, why don't they vote? talk to us about how they address that, that feeling of helplessness, perhaps, but also tides will turn. the numbers will change. eventually they will have the loudest vote. >> that's right. and when i started this project, with young voters, i was generally a young voter. only a third of my generation, gen x, voted in the presidential election in the late 1990s, in 1996. in a generation or two later, we

see a majority of young people voting. we're making significant progress. we are. but the reason that this film is called "the power of z," you can screen it online, it is now available for premiere today, they don't understand the power that they have. without young people, donald trump is president of the united states today. i'm sure of it. without young people we don't have the supreme court -- significant student loan debt relief, significant climate action, significant progress on gun violence prevention, that's the power of gen z. if they continue to vote, they can have a greater impact in the years ahead. >> the harris campaign certainly knows that. working very hard to get them to the polls three weeks from today. the documentary short film available online now as john said at thepowerofz.us. thank you, john. appreciate it. >> thanks. that does it for us this

morning. we'll be back here tomorrow morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a short break. a e coverage after a short break here you go. is there anyway to get a better price on this? have you checked singlecare? before i pick up my prescription at the pharmacy, i always check the singlecare price. it's quick, easy, and totally free to use. singlecare can literally beat my insurance copay. go to singlecare.com and start saving today.

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