him this time because they say he's dangerous to our national security. all of those, even on their pet issue about gender reassignment surgery, when she was able to get in, well, you know, that was a law under trump. there were surgeries then. these are not facts that fox news tells its viewers, so just to get that in, i thought it was rail really significant. >> it showed a toughness. >> absolutely. >> there's value about going in there and saying those things. >> she showed she's not some sort of inarticulate dummy who can't answer a question. she's not soft. >> that's for sure. political analyst eugene robinson, we appreciate the insight. thank you, eugene. thanks to you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. you had hundreds of thousands of people come to washington. they didn't come because of me.

they came because of the election. they thought the election was a rigged election, and that's why they came. some of those people went down to the capitol. i said, peacefully and patriotically. nothing done wrong at all. nothing done wrong. action was taken, strong action. ashley babbitt was killed. no one was killed. we didn't have guns. when i say we, this is a tiny percentage of the overall, which nobody sees and nobody shows. but that was a day of love from the standpoint of the millions, like hundreds of thousands. it could have been the largest group i've ever spoken before. >> a day of love. that was former president trump during a town hall with hispanic voters hosted by univision yesterday. he was responding to a man who said he wanted to give trump a chance to win back his vote. january 6th, a day of love. good morning. welcome to "morning joe."

willie, as you know, i was off yesterday. i've been struggling with covid. >> i know. >> over the past week. i took the day off to recover. well, i thought a day off would help because i had all this time, you know, to rest and relax. but i took a lot of time to watch tv news, a lot, all day. what a day it was. specifically what we saw play out on fox news. what did you make of the vice president's interview with bret baier? >> first of all, we're happy you're feeling better and you're back. i can't wait to get your take on this in a minute. i think, first of all, donald trump successfully worked the refs. he said in the days leading up to this that fox news had gotten weak and soft. he called bret baier soft. bret baier conducted that interview as if he had something to prove to the former president of the united states. >> yeah. >> we're going to show many of the moments here. but i think on the other side of it, we can talk about bret

baier's performance and the fairness and unfairness of the ways he pursued those topics. the other side of it is kamala harris went on fox news, took the questions, hung in there, kept her calm, and didn't attack the network or the interviewer or whine things were unfair. she talked about policy, and she gave answers to tough questions. but the tone was set right from the outset with a series of questions about immigration, where the vice president of the united states wasn't really given the opportunity to respond. here's how that played out. >> how many illegal immigrants would you estimate your administration has released into the country over the last 3 1/2 years? >> well, i'm glad you raised the issue of immigration because i agree with you, it is a topic of discussion that people want to rightly have. and you know what i'm going to talk about. >> yeah, but just a number, do you think it is one million, three million? >> bret, let's get to the point, okay? the point is that we have a broken immigration system that

needs to be repaired. >> so your homeland security secretary said that 85% -- >> i'm not finished. >> 6 million people have been released. >> but -- >> let me finish, and i'll get the question. i promise you. >> i was beginning to answer. >> looking back, do you regret the decision to terminate remain in mexico at the beginning of your administration? >> at the beginning of our administration, within practically hours of taking the oath, the first bill that we offered congress, before we worked on infrastructure, before the inflation reduction act, before the chips and science act, before any -- before the bipartisan safer communities act, the first bill, practically within hours of taking the oath, was a bill to fix our ingrags system. >> yes, ma'am. it was the u.s. citizenship act of 2021. >> exactly. >> it was essentially -- >> but i -- may i please finish?

>> yes, ma'am. >> may i finish responding, please? but -- >> you have to let me finish, please. >> you have the white house, the house, and the senate -- >> i'm in the middle of responding to the point you're raising. >> okay. >> i'd like to finish. >> yes, ma'am. >> that was the opening exchange, mika. it went on like that for nearly 30 minutes. it goes without saying that donald trump would not be given the same treatment, talked over, not allowed to finish the questions. doesn't mean the topics weren't fair. there were a lot that viewers wanted to hear from kamala harris. why do you have different positions than you did in 2019? how are you going to fix the immigration crisis? all fair questions. donald trump, obviously, would never be treated that way on fox news. >> no, not by -- i mean, i watched bret baier for years. >> yeah. >> that was different. i think another great place to focus would be on the enemy from within comments that president trump made. that's the exact phrase trump used a number of times in recent

days, referring to his political adversaries and members of the press even, and the retribution he would take against them. it is decidedly un-american. it's a big story, and it's the critical backdrop to this moment in which vice president kamala harris sat down for an interview with fox news. it was supposed to give viewers an opportunity to actually hear her plans as president. instead, as you saw, it almost immediately devolved into an embarrassing, bad-faith effort by a once respected host to play to an audience of one. the host's constant, rude interruptions were designed to distract from the issues and facts that trump and his acolytes try and twist and distort every day. on fox news, they try to avoid. they couldn't. when kamala harris realized the host was not going to let her speak, the only way the vice president could give fox viewers

an opportunity to hear what she had to say was to talk back over him. was he making sure that happened? i personally think, absolutely. did she do well in this environment? of course. she was great. she's a former prosecutor, attorney general, senator, current vice president. she's fine with a situation like that, and even flourishes. yet, there were times she was shaky on answers about immigration. he kept coming after her. but the questions sounded like they came from a trump campaign ad. in fact, they played a trump campaign ad in the interview. the host almost seemed obsessed with transgender surgery. the vice president kept trying to tell him she will follow the law. that was the answer. all the while, the vice president found her opportunities to make the case against donald trump. >> over the last decade, it is

clear to me and certainly the republicans who were on stage with me, the former chief of staff to the president donald trump, former defense secretaries, national security adviser and his vice president, one, that he is unfit to serve, that he is unstable, that he is dangerous, and that people are exhausted with someone who professes to be a leader, who spends full time demeaning and engaging in personal grievances and it being about him and not the american people. >> madam vice president, if that's the case, why is half the country supporting him? why is he beating you in a lot of swing states? why, if he is as bad as you say, that half of this country is now supporting this person who could be the 47th president of the united states? why is that happening? >> it's an election for president of the united states. it's not supposed to be easy. >> i know. but -- >> it's not supposed to be -- it

is not supposed to be a cakewalk for anyone. >> 50%, are they stupid, what -- >> god, i would never say that about the american people. in fact, if you listen to donald trump, if you watch any of his rallies, he's the one who tends to demean and belittle and diminish. the american people, he's the one who talks about an enemy within, an enemy within. talking about the american people. >> that's the part they don't want you to hear. how fox news conducted itself with the harris interview is just part of the story. what was equally dismaying was another piece of the phony playbook that came earlier in the day in the form of a fluffy town hall, if you call it that, with donald trump and a hand-picked audience that appeared to have been all maga. manyfor gracing him with their presence. for the content, well, trump lied to the audience about the issue of abortion, claiming

it'll just work itself out. it'll be okay. you're good. >> now, it's what everybody has wanted for years. now, it's working its way out in the states. nobody wanted it to be in the federal government. five or six or seven years ago, they started talking weeks, this and that. what they wanted was back in the states for a vote with the people, and that's where we have it. the states are now voting for it. honestly, some of them are going much more liberal, like in ohio. i would have thought it might -- >> some of them are not. >> some are not, but it is going to be redone. it's going to be redone. you end up with a vote of the people. some of them i agree, they're too tough. those are going to be redone. already, there's a movement in those states, i know exactly what you're talking about, to redo it. it's back in the states where they can have the vote of the people. it is exactly where they want it to be. remember this, this issue has torn this country apart for 52 years. we've got it back in the states. we have a vote of the people.

it's working its way through the system and, ultimately, it'll be the right thing. >> i want to share with you, senators, mayor bottoms of atlanta, and amba thurmond's family came out on a press call. they're doing a rebuttal to our town hall right now. >> oh, that's nice. >> yeah? >> we'll get better ratings, i promise. >> yeah, okay. he changing his position about abortion after overturning roe and saying women should be punished for -- and, by the way, joking about a woman who died, arguably, because of a severe abortion ban, allowed to be in place because of donald trump. classy. but it'll all work out, right? yeah. he also said, by the way, this was interesting, that he is the father of ivf, moments before admitting he only learned about

the issue this year. >> oh, i want to talk about ivf. >> you don't hear that every day. >> i'm the father of ivf, so i want to hear this question. i got a call from katie britt, a young, just fantastically attractive person from alabama. she's a senator. she called me up, like emergency, emergency. an alabama judge had ruled the ivf clinics were illegal and they have to be closed down. a judge. i said, explain ivf very quickly. within about two minutes, i understood it. i said, no, no, we're totally in favor of ivf. i came out with a statement. within an hour, a really powerful statement with some experts, really powerful, and we went totally in favor. the republican party, the whole party. alabama legislature, a day later, overturned, meaning approved it, overturned the judge, essentially, approved it, and we are the party for ivf.

we want fertilization, and it's all the way. the democrats tried to attack us on it, and we're out there on ivf even more than them. we're totally in favor of it. >> when he talked about illegal immigrants in springfield, ohio, continuing his cruelty toward the legal haitians who he terrorized there, the host gently reminded him, ever so lightly, that they were actually legal. >> springfield, ohio, they have 50,000, 52,000 people. no problems, no real crime. beautiful community. they just dropped 30,000 illegal aliens in springfield, ohio, and it's become a different place. we're going to destroy our country. >> actually. >> it's horrible. >> there's more to that story. they are here legally. they are programs that the current administration has put into place to do those flights.

so we recently learned, we didn't have any number to compare it to, so all of a sudden, we knew 1.5 million people had come in through the flights. we know the numbers lessened at the border because of what they're doing, partially -- >> for the election. >> well, i mean, the timing of it is interesting, right? but the numbers get made up by the people we can't see in the flights. all of it has a burden on the economy. >> okay. legal, illegal, whatever, you know? then you go to the evening. the polar opposite. we witnessed a man who spent his life as a down the middle journalist, seeming to throw it all away for his audience of one, interrupting the vice president awkwardly and unnecessarily, ignoring many issues that define this campaign, including a woman's right to health care freedom. most disturbing was when he showed a misleading clip about donald trump responding to a question about his enemy from

within comments. >> he's the one who talks about an enemy from within, an enemy within, talking about the american people, suggesting he would turn the american military on the american people. >> we asked that question to the former president today. there was a town hall. this is how he responded. >> i heard about that. they were saying i was, like, threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they do phony investigations. i've been investigated more than capone. he was the greatest -- >> all right. >> it's true. it's weaponization of government. it's a terrible thing. >> bret, i'm sorry, and with all due respect, that clip was not what he has been saying about the enemy within, that he has repeated when he is speaking about the american people. that's not what you just showed. >> he was asked about that specific -- >> that's not what you just showed, in all fairness and respect to you. >> it was a question we asked

him. >> you didn't show that. here's the bottom like, he has repeated it many times. you and i both know that. and you and i both know that he has talked about turning the american military on the american people. he has talked about going after people who are engaged in peaceful protests. he has talked about locking people up because they disagree with him. this is a democracy. and in a democracy, the president of the united states, in the united states of america, should be willing to be able to handle criticism without saying he'd lock people up for doing it. and this is what is at stake, which is why you have someone like the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff saying what mark milley has said about donald trump being a threat to the united states of america. >> she got it in there. you see the concern is that trump has clearly indicated he intends to use the military to

go after his adversaries in this country, in this country. and in his fox-friendly town hall, trump doubled down on that. this time actually naming names. but that's not the clip they showed kamala harris, and the vice president called out fox news, on fox news. here's the full clip they should have shown. >> you know, you know what they are? they're a party of sound bites, fair? somebody asked me, can they be brought together? you know, i never thought -- really, i wasn't thinking like they could, because they are very different. and it is the enemy from within, and they're very dangerous. they're marxists, communists, and fascists. i use a guy like adam schiff because they made up the russia, russia, russia hoax. it took two years to solve the problem. absolutely nothing was done wrong, et cetera. they're dangerous for our country. we have china.

we have russia. we have all these countries. if you have a smart president, they can all be handled. the more difficult -- or, you know, the pelosis, these people, they're so sick and so evil. if they would spend their time trying to make america great again, we would have -- it would be so easy to make this country great. but when i heard about that, they were saying i was, like, threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they do phony investigations. i've been investigated more than capone. >> oh, my. we have a question. >> think of it, it's called weaponization of government. it's a terrible thing. >> all right. >> they're the threat to democracy. >> it's simply another sign of what appears to be a threat of fascism. yes. we need to say that word. as for fox, there was nothing fair and balanced about what we saw play out yesterday over their airwaves. with us, we have the host of

"way too early," jonathan lemire. the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. msnbc contributor and author of "how the right lost its mind," charlie sykes. publisher of the newsletter "the ink" available on substack, anand giridharadas. charlie, i'll start with you. did i miss anything? >> well, you pull back the lens a little bit, this is one of the craziest endings to a presidential campaign we've ever seen. these are the closing arguments, and what you're seeing is gaslighting and b.s. coming from the trump folks. i mean, it's hard to keep up with all the things that have been happening. you know, his meltdown the other day, his performance at the economic forum in chicago, and then those answers last night. but i don't think you've missed anything. kamala harris is doing something very interesting. she is going places that most presidential candidates don't go.

she's reaching out, creating a big tent by campaigning with republicans. she's going into the lion's den of fox news, and she's, you know, going into aggressive, hand-to-hand combat with a guy who clearly had an audience of one. bret baier had one mission, which was to engage in fan service for fox news and to get a social media post from donald trump telling him that he did a great job. jonathanlemire, i think, pointed out -- sorry, it was willie geist who said trump has been working the refs and did it successfully. this is one of the moments you step back and go, okay, we're three weeks out from the election. normally, presidential candidates present their best and most appealing sides, right? they are appealing to the voters who are still in play. what is donald trump doing? what side of himself is he showing? it really is kind of remarkable.

i think you've seen that showcased over the last 24 hours in these dueling town hall interviews. >> donny, as i said before, i've long had respect for bret baier. he does tough interviews with republicans on his show. we want adversarial questions. it's how you get good answers from people. changes on her positions. they gave away the game a few times, most notably, showing the clip, defending donald trump, out of context and using half the sound bite. no, he didn't mean it when he said there are enemies from within on the radical left in this country. that was the third or fourth time he said it. said it first last sunday, also on fox news, and specifically did mention adam schiff and did mention the pelosis, as he called it. i guess the question for you is, did that interview move the needle in one direction or the other? >> i thought she did a great job. i was watching it in real time, and i was quite repulsed by bret baier. i'd always liked him, always thought he was a straight

shooter. the attack mode from the beginning was quite stunning. what dawned on me yesterday as i was watching was, imagine donald trump doing an interview at msnbc. can you imagine what he would be called on? after the interview, because he was challenged, he'd say, the license should be revoked from msnbc. like, there is this fairness and unfairness. there is this weakness and strength. the weakness is donald trump. he didn't do "60 minutes." he won't show for a debate. he'd never do anything on an adversarial network. he is a coward. the litany of things that he says. i think what got me yesterday more than anything is when he described january 6th as a day of love. i kept picturing the coke song from the '60s. i was picturing that music over the image, a day of love. it is repprehensible, the way h behaves, and it's to the point where i'm having trouble talking to people voting for donald trump. really, i don't see what they're not getting.

how do you see that and go, okay. >> anand, he's talking about enemies from within. they played the misleading clip for kamala harris, and she called them out on it. here's what donald trump said beginning on sunday on fox news. >> i think the bigger problem is the enemy from within. not even the people that have come in and are destroying our country. by the way, totally destroying our country. the towns, villages, they're being inundated. i don't think they're the problem in terms of election day. the bigger problem are the people from within. we have some very bad people, sick people, radical left lunatics. i think they're the -- and it should be very easily handled by, if necessary, by national guard, or if really necessary, by the military, because they can't let that happen. >> should be handled very easily by the national guard or the military. anand, a couple days ago, you were here. we were talking about kamala harris going into these places like fox news, maybe going on

joe rogan's podcast, and sitting there and talking policy and taking the heat and coming out and it benefitting her. do you think that benefitted her yesterday? >> yeah, i think, you know, it was a rich policy discussion if you dug into it. i think what most people are looking for is more visceral than that. people are looking for whether you have the metal to smash the obstacles in their lives that they can't smash on themselves, which they need leaders to smash for them. i think that kind of thing, when you're up against that, it shows that to people. to pick up on a couple things mika said i thought were really important. i loved, mika, you used the word fascism. the other f-word, the f-word of this moment. i think many of us in the media, particularly a lot of the newspapers, have been very, very reluctant to say what is clear, right? a tree is a tree. a river is a river. fascism is fascism. it is a word with a dictionary definition. if a tree is a tree.

fascism is fascism. this, what is offered by donald trump and the republican party today, is fascism. we in the media need to say it. and the other thing that mika brought up, which i wanted to, you know, expand on for a second, is this notion of interruption, right? it was a tick in that interview, but it was almost interruptionism last night. i was watching. this is interruption as an art form. it felt like interruption as a metaphor for a rising, new america, a new generation of leadership, a woman, a person of color in kamala harris, trying to speak, and this kind of figure of the old guard, who was offended at the notion that her voice had a volume, right? her vocal cords made sound. >> yeah. >> invited her on the show, and then was very, very angry that he could hear her. it just felt like a metaphor for a minority in this country that

is angry at the notion that a rising, pleuralist, more new american is speaking, is around, is here. and a desire to interrupt not just a person but the future. i actually don't think the future will be interrupted. i think a lot of people who watch fox news even have experienced that in meetings, have experienced that at work. >> yeah. >> have experienced that all their lives in different forms and don't like it, whatever their policy views are. >> so, believe it or not, as bad as that is, it's important, and i think she handled it really well, and i agree with you completely, there are a lot of people who will have different reactions to how that interview played out. i don't think it is exactly how it was intended by fox, but i think you are right, anand, we have to say it for what it is. for what we see happening here. joe made the point earlier this week, i think he tweeted this, the trump apologist playbook. it kind of happened in this interview, as well.

it definitely happened in jake tapper's interview with glenn youngkin, which jake doubled down on. when trump doubled down on his enemy from within comments. to take what trump says and to say, oh, no, no, you guys take little snippets here and take them out of context -- that's what fox did last night, by the way -- you take it out of context, and you are lying. that was out of context. then you say, no, here's what he said. you read it to the person, and you show it to the person. the person goes, oh, i -- i didn't hear it, or at least i didn't hear it that way. then you say, here's what he said. he wants to use the military against his adversaries. he named adam schiff in this sound bite and nancy pelosi in this sound bite. then the person just completely

goes, well, he didn't mean it. kamala harris got her point across to fox needed to hear something, it was that. i don't know if it'll break through, but she got her point across despite every effort to talk over her and to not get to that incredibly important point. she showed up, and she showed bret baier and fox news out. she was able to show the problem in real time, especially when they ran a misleading clip. she didn't even let him talk. she goes, i'm sorry, with respect, you just showed the wrong clip. that is not the clip that we are talking about. basically pointed out their dishonesty for the viewers to see. it was a pretty victorious moment. jonathan lemire, at the same time, there is little time between now and election day. does kamala harris do more on

these, or has she done the work that needs to be done over the airwaves of fox news? >> first of all, remember a couple weeks ago, a lot of democrats in a real panic that she wasn't doing interviews, she wasn't campaigning hard enough. that's now, of course, dissipated. she had a media blitz with friendlier interviewers. this week, into the lion's den. charlamagne tha god has been skeptical at times. going to fox news, dealing with a contentious interview. as you detailed, being interrupted repeatedly. her team feels good about everything. not every answer was a home run, but she showed up, fought back, called out fox news for the selective editing, called out donald trump for his lies. the harris people i spoke to in the aftermath of the interview said it showed real toughness. they love that she was able to say things to fox news viewers who wouldn't normally hear them. it's not a coincidence. this interview happened hours

after she appeared with a dozen of republicans, lawmakers who are supporting her. she's trying to say it's okay to vote republican, even just this once. she was able to say, remind fox news viewers, because they don't hear it every day, members of trump's cabinet, trump's own vice president aren't supporting him this time around. she was able to say it to the audience. one harris adviser texted me afterward, and the word was, presidential. the idea of being a tough moment, standing up to someone, and delivering it. mika, one more note about donald trump yesterday, the clip we played about january 6th, talking about we, as he always talks about, uses the word we when he talks about the january 6th rioters. he said, we were there peacefully. they had the guns. the they, they were capitol police officers. that shows you donald trump's framing of january 6th. >> well, that was the vice president. you get a sense that there was very little time to make a point

to fox viewers, but this is an urgent time. the message she was trying to send to fox viewers is donald trump is unhinged. he is unfit. he is a danger. she made the case for why, especially using the words of the very people who worked for him, the people who served this country, who have dealt with dictators and dangerous situations, calling him the greatest danger to america. i don't think it is something fox viewers have really had a chance to put their heads around, so it was good that she had the opportunity to have her choice heard. that is for sure. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump's running mate, senator jd vance, gave his most direct answer question about the results of the 2020 election. we'll play for you those new remarks. plus, vice president kamala harris rallies in pennsylvania where she was joined by more than 100 republicans. what she had to say about that support for her in her white house bid.

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are the democratic ideals that our founders and generations of americans before us have fought for. at stake in this election is the constitution of the united states, its very self. we are here today because we share a core belief, that we must put country before party. >> harris in the suburbs of philadelphia. why did she say it was unusual? she was joined by more than 100 republican leaders. meanwhile, senator j.d. vance says now out loud, he does not believe former president donald trump lost the 2020 election. speaking at a pair of press events, the vice presidential nominee confirmed his response at the first event before giving a more fiery response at the second. >> the election of 2020, i'm

answered this question directly a million times. no, i think there are serious problems in 2020. so did donald trump lose the election? not by the words that i would use. >> i answered this question a million times when i ran for the senate, the 2022 republican primary. i answered this question in the 2022 general election. i've answered this question ten times recently. i think that big tech rigged the election in 2020. that's my view. if you disagree with me, that's fine. i've given that exact question for years, and this is -- this is such a preposterous thing, that the american media does. i have given this answer to this question for literally years, and the american media wants to focus on what happened four years ago than the fact that north carolinians can't afford groceries? i think that's a disgrace. do your job, and focus on the problems the american people care about, rather than [ bleep ] from four years ago.

>> it's funny, charlie sykes. donald trump is the one who is completely obsessed with the results of the 2020 election. brings it up at every rally, every interview, at every turn. jd vance has flirted with this before, saying, yeah, i think there were problems with the election. now, just explicitly saying te election was rigged. of course, everyone around donald trump and the white house, around the election in november all the way through january 6th disagrees with him. donald trump has said many times, he let it slip when he said he lost the election. 65 courts disagree with jd vance's view of what happened during the election. the proof, the evidence is all there. again, this is jd vance, the beta in the relationship, having to say what the big guy wants to hear. >> yeah, and that's why he is on the ticket. he's there opposed to mike pence because he is willing to do and say what mike pence refused to do. i think that people also ought to recognize that they are laying the groundwork to doing this after this election, as well. >> right.

>> this is not simply looking back. but, you know, the gaslighting, the b.s., the cognitive incoherence of his position, which is, like, you people are obsessed with this when, in fact, he can't stop talking about it and donald trump can't stop talking about it. he can't stop trying to glorify and rewrite the history of january 6th. again, as i mentioned earlier, this is an extraordinary closing argument for the trump campaign. rather than looking ahead, rather than focusing on voters in play, what are they doing? they are wallowing in donald trump's obsessive lie about this election. jd vance just tells us who he is in those clips. but, again, i think that people ought to be very, very aware that there's no way that this ticket is going to graciously concede if they lose this election. the post election 2024, i think,

has the potential to be even more outrageous than what happened after the 2020 election, for a couple of reasons. number one, donald trump has people like jd vance who are willing to lie and stick with that lie. he has an entire political party and infrastructure that is unwilling to stand up to him. they've already filed lawsuits all around the country to at least put them in position. and i think when we go back to what the trump conspiracy was to overturn that election, all of those elements are in place. in many cases, they're more plausible, including using state legislatures. but what a remarkable moment for jd vance, three weeks out from the election, to double and triple down on that lie. >> yeah, that's the key point. not just some obsession with what happened four years ago, but concerns it could happen in weeks and months ahead. speaker mike johnson on the sunday show asked, did donald trump lose the election?

then asked, will you certify this election? will you go along with the results? he said, if it's free and fair. they leave themselves that out. we don't have to wonder because we watched what happened last time, what will happen again the donald trump loses. >> i think if you think about some of the great presidents we've had in this country, obviously, they were interested in winning and losing, but it wasn't necessarily the sum total of their being or understanding of the world. they were interested in policy. they were interested in the country. they had a certain feeling for history. i think donald trump is someone so small, so limited, in a way, that winning and losing is really the only thing he understands. there's this thing his father supposedly said to him. there are two kinds of things in the world, killers and losers. killer being a good thing in this moral landscape. so you can imagine the 2020 loss was a trauma for donald trump. it's the only kind of meaning he has, is to have ratings higher than the other person. his ratings were lower, the ultimate rating in this country,

which is voters. jd vance, i actually met him the first time here. we were both on the same day. this is 2016. i thought he was charming, kind, interesting, with different world view, but we spoke. messaged a little bit after that. he became what i think the founders a couple hundred years ago called men of ambition. it didn't used to be a good word, the way it is now. it's people who have such a design on power, there's nothing they won't say, do, become, to have power. this is a person who is now willing to throw out constitutional democracy. he studied at yale law school, where i believe they actually have courses on the constitution. he's willing to throw out everything he took time to study to be that kind of man of dark

ambitions. i think what is really important now is for people across this country who may not be die-hard for kamala harris or die-hard for donald trump, but who love the country, who have been blessed by the many gifts of this country, to say, this country is what it is. it has given you whatever it's given you because of institutions. institutions you take for granted. processes of a peaceful transfer of power that you take for granted. so you can live your life, you can start that restaurant, you can go do that job, you can go drive your kid to that college. you can do all those things in a way you cannot in somalia because the institutions are just working in the background. you don't even have to think about them very often. you have to vote every so often, and then they work. what is at stake now is you possibly not being able to do all those things you've done all your life. not be able to chase your dreams. not be able to make your plans.

because what works in the background is not going to be working in the background in a trump administration. politics, government, persecution would become your life. this would become the full drama of our country. that's what happens in these countries that go in that illiberal, unconstitutional direction. what they are proposing is not just, you know, an abstraction of fascism. it is a kind of political project where politics would eat your dream, eat your plans. i don't think most americans want that. >> talking about -- jonathan lemire, talking about jd vance, the lies he's told in pursuit of power, the latest we've heard from him and president trump is, again, there was, in fact, they say, a peaceful transfer of power, despite what our eyes, our ears told us on january 6th and the days and weeks around that election. >> yeah, when trump sat for that interview with the chicago economic forum this week, the moderator said, well, yeah, january 20th, that one day was peaceful. of course, two weeks prior, there was a siege at that very

building, the capitol. the timing of this is interesting. vance danced around answering this question for a while, including at the debate, the tough moment he had with governor walz. to go so forcefully yesterday and say, and multiple times, to say, yes, he believed trump won, it is indicative of how this campaign is closing its argument. yes, for vance, it's about playing to an audience of one. it's also how vance and trump, there's no effort here to win over any sort of swing voters, those undecided. harris has spent a lot of time in recent days. this is a pure base play. lying about the 2020 election. lying about january 6th. fear mongering about migrants. lying about crime. it's all part of the same piece about fear and grievance and this idea that things were taken from us, the other, whether it's migrants or democrats, have taken this from us. that's what trump and vance are telling the their supporters,

mika. that's how they plan to close this election. that's their argument just to try to rally the base. >> you know, great point. donny deutsch, to close up this block, i think to what jonathan lemire just said, and anand, as well, this is a very hard discussion to have in this country. it's asking citizens to consider what it means to be a citizen of the united states of america, and then to envision what it would be like not to have that. and i think that's a very hard case to make because this imperfect union has done so well at making freedom such a core value, and every other part of our constitution to the point where people believe it couldn't

happen. the harris campaign team, democrats are trying to make, and even some republicans now, members of the trump administration, and his former vice president and general milley, the case they're trying to make is this is the biggest danger america has seen. we're asking americans to envision that. that's difficult. >> it is difficult. but at this point, it is on you. you know, the old uncle sam, your country needs you now. >> i know, it does. >> it has to be -- you have to take in the fact, you out there, if you're voting for trump, that if he gets elected, we will no longer have fair and free elections. he will put the military on his own people. he's telling you that. he will straighten out the press. he is telling you that. >> yeah. >> he'll go after his political eneies and put them in jail. he's telling you that. he is telling us. listen. i don't understand why people refuse to take it in. it's on you. it's not on him anymore. it's on you. >> well, anand giridharadas and charlie sykes, thank you both very much for coming in this

morning. we appreciate it. coming up, we'll play for you more of donald trump's comments from his town hall with univision, including what he had to say about haitian migrants in springfield, ohio. "morning joe" will be right back. this is clem. clem's not a morning person. or a night person. or a...people person. but he is an "i can solve this in 4 different ways" person. and that person... is impossible to replace. you need clem. clem needs benefits. work with principal so we can help you help clem with a retirement and benefits plan

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runners in scoring position. 16 of the last 17. there's a powering drive down the line. ohtani's broken through. it is gone! >> shohei ohtani with a three-run bomb sneaking inside the foul pole. that's in the eighth inning. punctuating the dodgers' 8-0 win over the mets in game three of the nlcs. kiké hernandez hit a two-run shot in the sixth, kind of broke this open. max muncy launched a solo home run to the upper deck of citi field in the ninth. it was a rout, as right-hander and vanderbilt university star, walker buehler. >> wow. >> combining with four relievers, he was great last night. combined for the dodgers' fourth

shutout in the last five playoff games. l.a. leads the mets in the best of seven series, two games to one. game four tonight in queens. mets have to win that one. this evening, the cleveland guardians will host the yankees in game three of the alcs. yankees lead that series, two games to none. mike, back to the mets. blowouts in all three games in one direction or the other. down 2-1. at home tonight, you can't go down 3-1 if you're the mets. >> you can't. mets have the capacity to bounce back, have proven it the last five, six weeks. they're an interesting team. on paper, the roster, they're not as good as the opponent they're facing. that's clearly evident. but they have something the other team simply doesn't have. they have a momentum that arises in surprising situations. my beef last night, what is major league baseball doing, starting a game it a 8:00, 8:10.

you want to market -- >> don't want a 4:00 west coast start time. simple math. >> the 5:00 games have been great, though. >> the best. >> for fans, viewers. game over by 8:00. how fun is it to have both teams in the playoffs in october? >> it's fun. the yankees are a given. the yankees, there's a hum. they're going to make -- the mets, something electric happens to the city. they're the quintessential underdog even when they're stacked. there is a magic about this team, and i wouldn't sell the mets out yet. >> if you live in the new york area, you could actually go to see a playoff game every day of this week. every day of this week in the new york area, you could see the mets or the yankees or another team play. >> how great is that? you could also see the wnba finals here in new york. how about that? huge finish, incredible shot last night for the new york liberty for one of the biggest stars until the game in game

three of the wnba finals. >> eight seconds remaining. fourth quarter of game three. four seconds. ionescu will heave and hit! and hit! sabrina ionescu with the biggest shot in liberty history! >> that is some steph curry stuff. a step back for sabrina ionescu. a tie-breaking three-pointer with just over a second left on the clock to lift the liberty to an 80-77 win. they lead 2-1 over the minnesota lynx in the finals. the liberty could win their first title with another win on the road tomorrow night in game four. >> remember anything exploding like the wnba? >> incredible. >> almost overnight. caitlin clark. >> it's been an incredible near. angel reid. ionescu is incredible, too.

we'll hear from sherrod brown's race in ohio. shaping up to be the most expensive race in history, and a tight one. also ahead, emmy winner jim parsons will be live to talk about his role in the broadway revival of "our town." we have a lot more ahead on "morning joe." people want more of? more “oh yeah!” more laughs. more hang outs. more “mmmmm, so good!” yeah, give us more of all of that little stuff that makes life so great. but if you're older or or have certain health conditions, you also have more risk from flu, covid-19 and rsv. but vaccines help keep you from getting really sick. and that, is huge. liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i saved hundreds. with the money i saved

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trump has been doing podcasts. he called into the glenn beck show yesterday. glenn beck once called donald trump an immoral man, absence decency and morality. telling viewers to vote for hillary clinton instead. now, after soul searching, he thinks donald trump is really great. >> historians will look back and say, this is a genius. it was the biggest heist in human history. it was horrible. but it was genius. who is actually the president, mr. president? >> well, i think it is a committee of people, and they might not even know who the committee is. they might not even know themselves, does that make sense? >> nope, not -- not at all. this story makes even less sense. >> i spoke to the head, he's still there, abdul. we had a good conversation, tough conversation. i don't want to go graphically into the conversation. it was a tough conversation. but you can't really repeat it. it's not appropriate.

but -- >> can i tell -- >> yeah, you can tell it. i did send him something that was interesting. go ahead. >> you had a picture of his house, and you said, if any of our soldiers die, i will kill you. you put the picture down and slid it across the table. then you walked out. i think that's brilliant. just brilliant. >> well, it was a phone conversation. >> oh, okay. [ laughter ] >> not great when you get fact-checked by donald trump. >> huh. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, october 17th. jonathan lemire and mike barnicle still with us. joining the conversation, we have nbc and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, claire mccaskill. staff writer at "the atlantic," tom nichols. and conservative attorney george

conway. we begin this hour with vice president kamala harris and her contentious sit-down interview with fox news' bret baier, which kicked off with a heated exchange over integration. throughout the interview, baier interrupted harris' answers, which she called him out on. he pressed her on a range of issues, including donald trump's enemy from within remarks, which he then showed a misleading clip on the issue, to which the vice president called out fox news in real time on that dishonesty. i thought that was a moment that was vital to the national conversation. she was also asked whether or not she thought trump supporters were, quote, stupid. >> how many illegal immigrants would you estimate your administration has released into the country over the last

31-years? -- 3 1/2 years? >> i'm glad you raised the issue of immigration. i agree, it's a topic of discussion people want to rightly have. and you know what i'm going to talk about. >> yeah, but just a number, do you think it is 1 million, 3 million? >> bret, let's get to the point, okay? the point is, we have a broken immigration system that needs to be repaired. >> so your homeland security secretary said that -- >> i'm not finished. >> -- of apprehensions -- >> i'm not finished. we have an immigration system that needs to be fixed. >> let me finish, and i'll get to the question, i promise you. >> i was beginning to answer. >> looking back, do you regret the decision to terminate remain in mexico at the beginning of your administration? >> at the beginning of our administration, within practically hours of taking the oath, the first bill that we offered congress, before we worked on infrastructure, before

the inflation reduction act, before the chips in science act, before the bipartisan safer communities act, the first bill practically within hours of taking the oath was a bill to fix our immigration system. >> yes, ma'am, it was the u.s. citizenship act of 2021. >> exactly. and -- >> it was essentially a pathway to citizenship -- >> may i finish responding, please? >> but this -- >> you have to let me finish. >> you have the white house and the house and the senate, and they didn't bring up the bill. >> i'm responding to the point you're raising, and i'd like to finish. >> yes, ma'am. >> why is half the country supporting him and beating you in swing states? if he is as bad as you say, why is half this country supporting this person who could be the 47th president of the united states? why is that happening? >> it's an election for president of the united states. it's not supposed to be easy. >> i know but if -- >> it's not supposed to be -- it is not supposed to be a cakewalk. >> are they misguided, the 50%?

are they stupid? >> oh, god, i would never say that about the american people. in fact, if you listen to donald trump, if you watched any of his rallies, he's the one who tends to demean and belittle and diminish. the american people, he's the one who talks about an enemy within, an enemy within, talking about the american people. suggesting he would turn the american military on the american people. >> we asked that question to the former president today. harris faulkner had a town hall. this is how he responded. >> i heard about that. they were saying i'm threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're threatening. they're doing phony investigations. i've been investigated more than capone. >> all right. >> think of it, weaponization of government. it's a terrible thing. >> so -- >> bret, i'm sorry, and with all due respect, that clip was not what he has been saying about

the enemy within, that he has repeated when he is speaking about the american people. that's not what you showed. >> he was asked about that specific -- >> no, no, it's not what you showed. >> i'm telling you, that was the question we asked him. >> you didn't show that, and here's the bottom line, he has repeated it many times, and you and i both know that. and you and i both know that he has talked about turning the american military on the american people. he has talked about going after people who are engaged in peaceful protests. he has talked about locking people up because they disagree with him. this is a democracy. and in a democracy, the president of the united states, in the united states of america, should be willing to be able to handle criticism without saying he'd lock people up for doing it. and this is what is at stake, which is why you have someone like the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff saying what mark milley has said about donald trump being a threat to

the united states of america. >> so here are the former president's full comments on the enemy from within narrative, which vice president harris just referenced. >> you know, you know what they are? they're a party of sound bites, fair? somebody asked me, can they be brought together? you know, i never thought -- really, i wasn't thinking, like, they could, because they are very different. and it is the enemy from within. they're very dangerous. they're marxists and communists and fascists, and they're saying -- i use a guy like adam schiff because they made up the russia, russia, russia hoax. it took two years to solve the problem. absolutely nothing was done wrong, et cetera. they're dangerous for our country. we have china. we have russia. we have all these countries. if you have a smart president, they could all be handled. the more difficult or, you know, the pelosis, these people,

they're so sick, and they're so evil. if they would spend their time trying to make america great again, we would have -- it would be so easy to make this country great. but i heard about that. they were saying i was, like, threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they do phony investigations. i've been investigated more than capone. he was the greatest -- >> my goodness. >> it's true. think of it, it's called weaponization of government. it's a terrible thing. >> all right. >> they're the threat to democracy. >> so comparing nancy pelosi to dictators. you have to -- whoa -- take in what the vice president had to deal with there. claire mccaskill, your thoughts? seems like whenever she brought up facts and backed up those facts that lead to a frightening point, that donald trump is leaning very, very heavily toward fascism, talking about using the military against his own people and naming names, any time she tried to do that, bret

baier would talk over her, as if to try and prevent the viewers from hearing them. that was my take. how do you think the vice president did on fox news yesterday? >> yeah, i think bret baier was rude. it kind of surprised me, how rude he was. >> yeah, it was weird. >> i've been interviewed by bret baier. i understand that he comes to his interviews from a different perspective as somebody who works at different outlets, as one who appointed itself as the defender in chief of donald j. trump. but i thought she did fine. listen, was it a home run? no. did she need it to be a home run? absolutely not. because what is being set up here, mika, is pretty clear. the person who is seen as strong typically wins the presidency. the person who is seen as stable

and calm and, most importantly, change, change is very, very important. so she did some real work yesterday on the change stuff. >> yeah. >> for the first time, she said out loud, i am going to follow a different path than joe biden, which is very important for her to underline. i think she showed strength. this contrast is now set up. you have strength versus weakness. he is afraid to go anywhere where the person or the people that he is surrounded by are not his supporters. you've got calm and stable versus chaotic. you have change versus the same old tired circus act. and, frankly, you have normal versus, you know, sharks and hannibal lecter and maria and dancing on stage for 40 minutes to a playlist. this contrast is setting up nicely for kamala harris. i think particularly sandwiched with 100 republican leaders in

pennsylvania saying, hey, this isn't about what party you belong to. this is about our country. >> george conway, as always, there's so much to parse when donald trump speaks. the russia hoax, that's become gospel in the maga world. if you read the mueller report, it was not a hoax. there were a dozen, many, many instances of obstruction, and no question that russia attempted to interfere in the 2016 election. the rhetoric about nancy pelosi, that's the kind of rhetoric that had a man arrive at her doorstep, break into her house looking for her, and beat her husband to within an inch of his life. he's recovered, thank goodness. but your impression of what we saw on fox news in the interview with bret baier and kamala harris, again, as contrasted to what we see every day with donald trump. >> yeah, i thought she handled it masterfully. i mean, he was rude, but i don't necessarily mind journalists being rude and interrupting intervs when they're not

answering the question. but she was answering the question. what she did well was turn the questions back on the questioner to make her point, which is something you want to do as a lawyer. she's showing her skill as an advocate there. you know, i think the contrast between her not being coddled and being tough and being able to respond with substance and truth is a remarkable contrast with donald trump, who needs to be coddled. if he is not coddled, if he is interrupted, if he is contradicted, he begins to lose it. he gets angry. he says he is being persecuted. he says he is being unfair. and the other thing about it is, you know, she didn't attack the people who support donald trump. she's trying to earn their votes. she went to -- i had the pleasure and the honor of attending a rally yesterday in pennsylvania where she is seeking republican votes, from republicans of good faith who

want to have actual civil discussions, factual discussions about the issues that face this country. they don't want to hear about eating dogs and eating cats and how january 6th was a lovefest and all these lies that donald trump continually repeats. and he's allowed to repeat on fox news because there is never any contradictory thing. they sanitize the world for donald trump. they sane wash donald trump. they do their best to make him look normal. that's why we live in these abnormal times. it's a malignant normality that outlets like fox news, led by donald trump, has created in this country. that's why half the people support donald trump. >> tom nichols, you have a wonderful piece on george washington that's still running on theatlantic.com. george washington gave america many gifts at its inception all those years ago. perhaps his biggest gift was he has the ability and the

self-confidence to go home after serving two terms. to go home, to be a private citizen. so we've listened to a man who sat in the oval office only four, five years ago, donald trump. we just listened to him. i'm wondering, as you listen to donald trump, as you watch this saga play out, in an election that supposedly is neck and neck, as close as can be, how did we get here? how do we get to the point where, basically, as george just pointed out, i mean, it's like a virus that has infected the population, the public population. >> you know, it's such a sad question because i think the answer is that, over the past 30, 40 years, there are millions of people who stopped taking elections seriously. there are millions of people who think that what they really want

is to renew four years of the donald trump show. they know that he's unstable. they know that he's weird. they know that he's losing it. that's part of his appeal to them. he's interesting. it's fun. i think the other thing we really have to understand is, you know, we talk about polarization, but this is more than polarization. this is 60, 70 million people saying, i really -- the worst donald trump gets, the better.e really going to discomfort and aggravate and frighten, you know, the other 100 million people in america. every time i look at this election, i think of the trump voter some years ago who criticized trump by saying he's not hurting the people he's supposed to be hurting. once you think that way about elections, you're not really thinking like an american. i thought the vice president

handled that question about, you know, why is this election so tight, i thought she handled that very deftly. trump is the one who basically says, you know, anybody who is not on my side is the enemy, is stupid, is a marxist, is a communist, is a fascist, and many other words that he does not actually understand. but we got here, in part, because we've had it pretty good as a country for a long time. the end of the cold war, affluence. people were able to treat elections as kind of big tv events. donald trump, particularly because of having been on television so long, he was med for these times and for a certain kind of slice of the electorate who just want elections to be not boring. to be full of drama and weirdness. i think that, unfortunately, is how we got here. the presidency, the boring work of actually governing is something that doesn't interest a whole lot of people in this

country, unfortunately. >> no, and the boring work of what it means, protecting the right to be a free american citizen, it's not something people should have to worry about. they're being asked to. that's a tough slog. joining us now, senior spokesperson and adviser for the harris campaign, adrienne elrod. good to have you on. i'm curious how the campaign is feeling about the vice president's interview on fox news, and whether or not she was able to make the case against the father of ivf, donald trump. >> the father of ivf, mika. i mean, you can't make this up. >> wow. >> father of ivf also put three conservative supreme court justices on the court which overturned roe. it was clear he wanted to do that in 2020. he's the bottom line, mika, the vice president was calm. she was tough. she delivered her message to fox viewers about how she's going to lower costs for families, how

she's going to put the needs of the american people first in every move she makes if lucky enough to be elected president. the bottom line is, often, fox viewers don't get to hear this. they can't hear about her plans for the american people, about plans for expanding reproductive freedoms, about her plans for lowering costs. she also made it very clear that donald trump has said, time and time again, that he is going to take political retribution on his enemies if he gets back into office. mika, he talked about the enemy from within in the interview recently, and talking about using military force against the american people if they don't agree with what he believes. so she took that message to fox viewers. they don't often hear that. even dana parrino, a fox news host, said she was very effective in delivering her message. this is what the vice president is doing. she understands the stakes of this election. she understands the contrast that she is going to continue to be making, along with governor walz, in the final stretch of

this campaign. she wants to make sure that americans from all across the country understand what's at stake, understand what she is going to do for the american people. again, she was very strong and very effective in her delivery with bret baier. i think fox viewers got to see a different side of the vice president that they don't always see when watching fox news. >> adrienne, good morning. even beyond the fox news interview, there's clearly been a concerted effort from the campaign to talk to disaffected republicans. the vice president appeared with liz cheney not long ago. yesterday with dozens of former republicans, sort of saying, look, we're a safe space, sort of in the middle. talk about that strategy. also, is there a concern by doing that, by reaching out to the republicans, is there any fear of dampening enthusiasm among the base, the progressives who the campaign also needs to turn out? >> no, absolutely. we are proud to have the support of liz cheney. proud to have the support of dozens of former trump

administration officials, you know, people who stood with her yesterday at the events. they came out and showed their support for the vice president. it also reinforces the fact that she will be a president for all americans. even those who don't vote for her. you talked about in the previous segment how she's going to rural parts of the country, so is governor walz, making it clear to the american people the contrast between her and donald trump. the fact that she will expand reproductive freedoms, that she will lower costs for families, that she will put the american people first, and contrast with donald trump, who will be that much more dangerous, trump 2.0. project 2025 would be an incredibly dangerous agenda if implemented. she wants to make sure that every single american understands that. she knows that there are a lot of republicans out there who are still undecided. she wants to make it clear that she will fight for them, just as much as she will fight for a progressive family, a progressive person who lifts in a different part of the country. may not share the same values as some republicans who support her, but she will be their

president. >> senior spokesperson and adviser for the harris campaign, adrienne elrod, thank you very much for coming in this morning. tom, i want to focus on something adrienne just said. fox viewers got a chance to see a different side of the vice president. as much as was possible ginn the constraints of the interview, which she can handle. i think that's fine. bret baier, a lot of people thought he was rude. she can handle all of that. she's been through worse, has been face-to-face with criminals, and she understands the type, as she has said many times along the way about her opponent. i think fox viewers also heard a different side of donald trump that they don't necessarily get all day, every day. that is that he is a danger. he's unhinged. that he has said things that are

not okay if you live in a democracy. is it possible to break through on a network like that, though? >> it's an interesting question. first thing i thought about baier was he's already got the job. who is he auditioning for? >> i know. >> i mean, it was almost, again, like a sort of, watch that i can do this and interview kamala harris. i think one of the things that the harris campaign is doing that's effective is using her appearances to drag trump into the spotlight. now, whether that can work on a network like fox is hard to say. i mean, you know, it is an effective counter to something that i often hear when i talk to trump supporters, when i say, well, what did you think about when he said this? what did you think about this, you know, kind of crazy rally moment? inevitably, i'll get an answer, well, i didn't see that.

i don't think that's what he said. or i didn't hear that. >> right, that's the playbook. >> you see it all the time. i didn't see the tweets. >> right. >> so for her to go there in front of a fox audience and say, well, no, that's not what he said. here, this is actually the thing he said. you're being selective and quoting him. when her rally is covered by the media, now they have to cover the things she's putting up there about donald trump. you know, you know that for years, i've said, as far as i'm concerned, put trump rallies on every network every time he has one. just run them live for hours. then people have to confront this. i think one of the worst things about this election are the people who say, oh, well, i think donald trump is going to be a normal president. we survived four years. i've never seen him say these crazy things. well, now you have. now, you can't say you weren't told and you didn't see it. >> you know, i thought the

moment, george conway, where she called on fox news, called them out on showing a misleading clip was so vital. it was such a vital contribution to the problems that we face today as americans and what is happening with the very splintered media, and right-wing outlets that only work every day to get donald trump re-elected again, and the dangers that that poses. in real time, she knew that that was the wrong clip, that that was not what donald trump said about the enemy within in the conversation, in the fox news town hall with hand-picked women, an extremely, extremely generously supportive audience and host. that he actually said much more and named nancy pelosi. he doubled down on the comments, yet fox news shows a clip that is completely unrelated to the

very point that was being made about the danger of this former president threatening his political adversaries. i think kamala harris did something that actually no one has been able to do. which is call them out in real time. i urge people to look at that clip and to pass it around because that was the mask coming down. george conway, talk about the challenge ahead. to explain to the american people that the citizenship and the freedom that we have in this country isn't free, to an extent. we have to fight for what we've built here. it is a very hard case to make. >> yeah, it is a hard case to make to people who watch fox news, who, you know, receive a one-sided, slanted view of reality. in fact, a view that doesn't reflect reality. i mean, we saw that when they had to pay $787 million in a

settlement because they put on donald trump's lies about the election. they did it even though they knew that those lies were not true, because they were too afraid of the audience. they'd been feeding their audience this stuff for so long, they'd become addicted to it. it's going to be hard. i don't think kamala harris is going to be able to break through that addiction with one appearance and 21 days left to the election, but, i mean, the fact is, she's appealing to americans in, you know, center-right americans who understand that they're not getting the full truth from donald trump, who understand that donald trump has done some bad things. they are ready. i mean, for a lot of republicans, and we saw that when they all turned out to vote for nikki haley, even after she had withdrawn from the race, they understand. they have come to understand that donald trump is a danger

because, you know, he doesn't play by the rules. he doesn't believe the rules should apply to him. he believes the rules should be distorted and twisted to harm his opponents. he doesn't play fair. he's not -- you know, he is not, by any means, a normal politician. i think -- you know, i think what she is trying to do is she's trying to break through a little bit with that fox interview, but she's doing it to show she can take it. she's tough. you know, she's also showing, with the clip you showed, that we've talked about, about her telling republicans in pennsylvania that she's going to be president for all the people, well, that's what we need and want in a president. it's what we used to need and want in a president. we didn't want someone who basically treats half the country who disagrees with him, who thinks he is telling lies -- when he is telling lies -- you know, as enemies of the state. you know, that's un-american. i think at the end of the day,

people are going to understand that. she's going to win. >> whether he was rude, i think both sides have complaints about how the interview went. they always do, the timing, this and that, think there were complaints by the host that they were rushed or -- i'm not sure what their complaints were, but about being rushed or her being late or -- that's a lot. that's a stretch compared to what was put in front of her. but i'll allow. interviews are tough. both sides usually come away not feeling great about it. i will say, she had her say. which is good. i hope fox viewers got a chance to hear it. george conway and tom nichols, thank you both for coming on this morning. ahead on "morning joe," democratic senator sherrod brown of ohio will join the show. he is facing a tough re-election battle in his republican-leaning state. plus, steve rattner joins to talk about donald trump's tariff

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you talk about tariffs. american economy, 40 million jobs rely on trade.

cut that off, it'll have an effect on many, many business people here. there's also another side. isn't that something you have to acknowledge? you could be plunged america into the biggest trade war -- >> no. >> there are tariffs already. >> there are no tariffs. you have to build your plant in the united states, and you don't have tariffs. >> people -- [ applause ] -- a lot of places like this, a lot of jobs rely on foreigners coming here. you're going to basically stop trade with china. you're talking about 60% trade on that. 60% tariffs on that. as you said, 100%, 200% on things you don't like. 10%, 20% tariffs on the rest of the world. it'll have a serious effect on the overall economy. yes, you'll find some people who would gain individual tariffs. the overall effect could be massive. >> i agree, it'll have a massive effect, positive effect. it is going to be a positive, no a negative. >> let -- >> let me -- i know how committed you are to this.

it must be hard for you to spend 25 years talking about tariffs as being negative, then have somebody explain to you that you're totally wrong. >> donald trump earlier this week at an interview with the editor of "bloomberg" news at an economic conference in chicago. joining us with charts on the truth of tariffs, "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. good morning. great to see you. we'll let you dig into your chart in a moment. i know you watched that entire interview, the exchange. what stood out to you? >> trump was talking economic nonsense. not just on tariffs, on all kinds of other things he talks about there. on taxes, his administration, so forth. the crowd was obviously very pro-trump crowd, and they really liked it, frankly. >> yeah, giving a smattering of applause to the idea of tariffs. let's talk about what those are, actually, and how they'd affect people heading to the polls in a couple weeks. your first chart shows the tariffs are like a national sales tax. how does that work?

>> willie, look, the most important thing for anybody to take away from this is exactly that. tariffs are like a national sales tax. they add to the cost of goods, whether it is 10%, 20%, 100%, 200%. don't believe me. let's look at some history here. trump actually imposed a bunch of tariffs, as you'll recall, including on laundry machines. january of 2018, he put a tariff on laundry machine, average cost $750. added $200 to the cost of the laundry machine. then president biden allowed that tariff to expire, and so what happened? the price of laundry machines fell by $75. it meant the increase in laundry machines, which had outstripped inflation, actually ended up being lower than the average inflation rate in the rest of the country. then the other thing that happens often with tariffs is countries, as you suggest, retaliate. a lot of countries put tariffs on our exports, our agricultural exports, soybeans, things like

that, in retaliation for what trump did in iron and steel. look what happened. we lost $27 billion of agricultural exports to all these different countries because they put on their own set of tariffs. farmers lost out. trump ended up raising agricultural subsiies to make up for it. we lost multiple times in the course of this. >> had to lift farm aid to close the gap and make up the difference. more taxpayer money there. let's move to your second chart that shows what the tariffs do actually to the broader economy in terms of growth. >> yeah, couple things. first of all, we don't have tariffs as a major source of our revenue for the reasons i was just explaining, which they really don't work. trump says he is going to put on so much tariffs that he's going to actually be able to cut taxes and things like that. you're starting from such a small amount. the federal budget is so big, not going to make a difference. another historic example, the great depression. a lot of us studied in school that the great depression either

was caused or exacerbated by tariffs. it was exacerbated by it, is the answer. tariffs were passed in january 1930. economy was already in a recession. look how bad it was. i'm not going to say tariffs are all of this, but they certainly didn't help. they actually hurt. then the tariffs are removed by fdr in 1934. these were put on my hoover. the economy is growing again after removed. not all tariffs, but every economist in the mainstream would tell you tariffs hurt economic growth. >> steve, your final chart gets at the fact that tariffs are regressive. they hurt people at the bottom of the economic scale more than they do at the top. >> exactly, willie. let's, again, take some history here rather than believing what i say. let's look at solar panels. we were having a nice growth, a nice growth in the number of solar panel jobs, increase in solar panel jobs under obama. trump put his tariffs in place.

actually, growth in solar panel jobs slowed down, even with the tariffs. then when biden helped pass the inflation reduction act that we're familiar with, the growth in solar panels jumped. the peterson institute, which is well respected student of these matters, did an analysis of trump's proposed tariffs. and found, as you said, they hurt workers at the bottom the most. they cost the average worker between 2,2,600 and $3,900 a ye in goods. it's a national sales tax. if you're at the bottom, it can cost you 6.3% of your after-tax income versus 2.9% for those at the top. they hurt everybody in terms of your after-tax income, but they hurt those at the bottom the most. >> steve, given all the data you've shown us, we know the biden administration, many administrations, have imposed some tariffs over the years. what is the case for tariffs? >> there are a couple cases. one is when other countries

don't play fair with us. trump thinks no other country plays fair with us. that's not really true. if you have a country that's egregiously subsidizing its own companies, you can use tariffs there. tariffs are also used in alexander hamilton who advocated tariffs when you have a young industry trying to grow, to protect it and allow it to grow. there are cases for tariffs, but they're limited. as i said, i think almost every mainstream economist will tell you, tariffs end up hurting. we learned in school, trade is good. we make something more efficiently than another country, sell it to them, make something more efficiently than they do, we buy it from them. that's good trade. tariffs get in the way of that and have the costs associated with them. >> steve, if trump gets his way and raises tariffs on nearly everything, and you own a small general store in central pennsylvania, rather rural, you're making profit but it is hard to make the profit, you have like six employees, what happens to that general store owner? >> yeah, you end up losing

sales, losing jobs. you end up with a much weaker business as a result of it because you're paying so much more for the stuff you're having to buy. your customers can't afford to buy as much of it at those higher prices, so your business goes down. the workers end up being the ones who get hurt. >> fascinating and important look at tariffs which donald trump talks about an awful lot these days. "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, great stuff, as always, steve. thanks so much. the razor thin race for ohio's senate seat is now the most expensive congressional contest in u.s. history. according to ad impact, the price tag of the race between democrat incumbent senator sherrod brown and trump-backed republican challenger bernie morano surpassed $47 million. it is a close matchup with senator brown defying republican trends in the state again with a small lead but within the margin of error. senator brown joins us now.

thanks so much for your time this morning. so much to get to you about, but let's pick up the conversation there. you live in and represent a manufacturing state. what would the kind of tariffs that donald trump is talking about do to workers and companies in ohio? >> well, i've always said, it's not surprising. i've always looked at this through the eyes of ohio workers. i was just this week in lordstown, a company in the town that lost a lot of auto jobs were fighting back. we've worked together in a way that are several hundred jobs there with potential for growth. to me, it's taking on -- when i was at lordstown, uaw hall, it's taking on those companies that outsource jobs, that push through a bad trade agreement. it's taking on the drug companies. i don't see politics as left or right. i see it as whose side you're on. that's why they're spending literally hundreds of millions of dollars against me. when you take on the drug companies, when you take on wall street, when you take on these companies that outsource jobs,

they come after you. i knew they would. the hundreds of millions of dollars, we're going to win in spite of that. i ask people to come to sherrodbrown.com. they have their billionaires. i have 12 million people in ohio i fight for. i'll continue to make that fight. that's why i ask people on this show to help. >> senator, ohio, though not a battleground in the presidential race, has been in the forefront of the national consciousness politically in recent weeks. jd vance, your senate colleague from your state, of course, made these false claims about springfield, ohio, what he said there about migrants eating pets. then yesterday, as we spent a lot of time on this morning, flat out said that he does not think that donald trump lost the 2020 election. can we get your reaction, sir, to your senate colleague and what that says about the republican party today? >> sure. i didn't -- jd vance, it is like an arranged marriage. jd vance didn't choose me, and i sure as hell didn't choose him. but my job is to represent

people in ohio and keep my focus on ohio workers. the last week, as i mentioned, i've been to lordstown. i was in chillicothe where they tried to close a veterans hospital. mayor feeney and others asked me to help keep the hospital open. i talk to firefighters in cleveland where they endorse me. because i stood with them and their pensions and in other ways. my focus will always be in ohio. you know, national media wants to talk about national races. i'm fine with that. but i represent 12 million people in ohio, and i'll continue to fight for them. that's my job. that's why they hire me. again, the voters of ohio, they know the way i do this. i don't get -- the best ideas don't come from washington. i heard about a pension bill from workers in youngstown and dayton. i went back. we fought for restoring the

pensions of 100,000 ohio workers. i heard it from sandusky, heard about these football field size burn pits. i went back, worked with jon tester and others. 40,000 ohioans have already gotten care because of that exposure. the bill is named after an ohioan, just like the pension bill is. you get the ideas at home. you go back to washington, find a partner, and you push this through. then you make sure it's implemented. i've done probably 50 roundtables with veterans around the state, from defiance to toledo to ravenna, talked to them about, how do we get the word out that these pensions are -- or that this help is available because of their exposure to these football field sized burn pits? so it really is getting things done, focusing on my state, showing whose side i'm on, and then i make that contrast. i fight for the dignity of workers. bernie moreno literally stiffed the workers out of his -- his

own workers out of $400,000 by taking their overtime. he had to pay it back. you can see, i'm on the side of ohioans. bernie moreno looks out for himself and his rich friends. that's the contrast in this race. that's what will win this race, when we make that contrast. >> good morning, sherrod. >> hey, claire. >> i want to take a big, flashy red light and explain to everybody in america that sherrod brown's race in ohio is exactly what has happened to our elections in the united states since citizens united. the fact we have an s.e.c. asleep on the job. billionaires are stroking checks with dark money to beat sherrod brown. $40 million pouring in just over the last few days from billionaires that don't like it, that he is running the banking committee, thinking about ohioans instead of big guys in

fancy cars in the executive suite. he's thinking about the people who want to have banking be fair to them, not to the people that can stroke $100 million, $40 million, $20 million checks. that's what they're doing in ohio to sherrod brown. he has raised money, by and large, yes, there's been some big checks written because you can't unilaterally disarm, but most of his money that he is spending, his campaign, has come from folks who have given $20. $100 or $75. that's what's going on in ohio right now. sherrod, tell us how you overcome this amount of money being -- these huge checks being written behind the curtain. i always said if people in missouri knew who were writing those big checks that nobody knows where they come from, they'd be very proud of the enemies i've made. i think the same can be said for you. you've made some enemies because you are on the side of ohio's workers. what is your path now in front

of this huge amount of money that's pouring in against you? >> thank you, claire, for that question. i know you were up against that six years ago, because that's how campaigns have evolved, unfortunately. i think as you were asking that question, claire, i thought back. one of the things i noticed years ago as i was talking to veterans groups and others is how, right outside of wright patterson air force base, and this has a lot to do with the committee i chair, saw these payday lenders and other vultures right outside the military base. they can't come on the base under military law, but they'd set out outside of it and fleece young men and women who went straight into the military after high school and maybe don't have a lot of financial sophistication. my job is to protect them. my job is to protect people when wall street or the drug companies or the oil companies or the companies that outsource jobs, when they go after people in ohio. my job is to stand with them and

protect them. when they're spending + of dollars and, as you say, claire, we're raising more than half the money when we fight back, we're raising half the money for individual contributions. again, i ask people to come to sherrodbrown.com and contribute $15 or $20. but it is whose side are you on? i don't buy the left or right analysis that many bun dits and many politicians like to picture, like to form politics and think about politics. it really is whose side are you on? i get votes from people whether they're republicans or independents or democrats, i get votes from a lot of people because i stand for them. i also make the contrast with my opponent. politics is always contrast. ohio, as you know, claire, passed with 57% of the vote, abortion rights constitutional amendment last november. my opponent says he is for national abortion ban. quote, i'm 100% pro life, no

exceptions. that contrast. the arrogance of that, the bernie morano thinks he knows better than the 57%. i talk to a lot of men and women, women and men about that and make that contrast. bernie morano, as you know, claire, because you follow this closely, he was talking to you, claire. he said, i think you're over 50, claire. he said, why would women over 50 care about abortion? i mean, he sort of made fun of ohioans overall for passing 57%. particularly, insulted women over 50. >> absolutely. >> that's what we see much of. >> democratic senator sherrod brown of ohio, thank you very much for coming on this morning. and coming up, vice president kamala harris will focus her campaign today on battleground vice president kamala harris will focus her campaign today on battleground wisconsin with stops planned in milwaukee and

green bay, and we'll be joined by the chairman of the wisconsin democratic party ahead of her visit there, and before we go to break, we want to mention, former president jimmy carter has cast his vote for kamala harris in the 2024 presidential election. the carter center confirmed yesterday the 100-year-old former president filled out a mail-in ballot which was then dropped into a ballot drop box at the courthouse near his hometown of plains, georgia. it came on the second day of early voting in the state. carter's family says the former president told them he was more interested in voting for vice president harris than his 100th birthday earlier this month on october 1st, and, you know, thinking about jimmy carter, of course, makes me think of my father who worked for jimmy carter as national security adviser, and his many warnings about this moment right now, and what it means to be free, to be

a citizen of this country, a free country. it sounds so easy, right? because it should be. that's the way it was built, but it's not free for women anymore, as sherrod brown brought up abortion, and that topic. our freedoms have been taken away when it comes to life-saving health care, and we are learning what it looks like. right now, we are already learning what it looks like to have freedoms taken away, bleeding out, sterilization, dying. that has already happened due to donald trump's strict abortion bans and the overturning of roe. we are experiencing having our freedoms taken away in realtime, and they don't -- that lack of freedom doesn't go to just democrats or republicans. all women and the men who love

them. so when donald trump threatens his adversaries, remember that he followed through on his threat to take away abortion rights, and he also threatened to punish women who got abortions. not being free to speak, maybe it's something you can't imagine, and maybe perhaps you can't imagine the consequences of that. i trust that women do understand the consequences of having freedoms taken away. please believe him, and women certainly do already. we'll be right back. n certainly do already we'll be right back. donald trump wants to give tax breaks to billionaires, but kamala harris has plans to help us. she's going to crack down on price gouging and cut taxes for working people like me. i voted for donald trump before, but this time i'm voting for kamala. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad.

beautiful live picture of the sun up over the white house. it's 7:54 in the morning here on the east coast. vice president kamala harris will be in battleground wisconsin today, her sixth visit to the state since launching her presidential campaign with stops in milwaukee, la crosse, and

green bay. joining us is ben wickler. good to see you again this morning. so obviously this is -- you look at the polling, literally every poll has this either tied or within the margin of error. this is going to go down to the final votes in the state of wisconsin. a pivotal state, of course, that donald trump won in 2016, that joe biden flipped back to the democrats in 2020. which areas, and which issues will decide the election in your state? >> well, wisconsin is a state where you have to fight everywhere. you have to campaign in red areas, purple areas, and deep blue areas because the slightest shift can tip the entire thing. four of the last six presidential races here have come down to less than one percentage point. having harris in southwestern wisconsin in one of the swingiest areas of the state, and where rebecca cook can flip a seat, that is really powerful. having kamala harris in green

bay, in northeast wisconsin, another one of the swingiest areas in the state, the state legislative races, and so many different candidates on the ballot, having her in milwaukee helping drive u turnout, and tammy baldwin. all of it makes a huge difference. if there's one issue this year, it is this question of reproductive freedom right before the break. i think we got a reminder about what it means to have rights stripped away, and kamala harris, tammy baldwin, democrats down ballot are all fighting to restore the freedoms of roe versus wade. that can tip wisconsin in 2024. >> hey, ben. wisconsin's a great state. no one's ever going to argue that. great sports teams, great population, a lot of things do in wisconsin. donald trump is no stranger to anyone in wisconsin, but what? what is the magic that has him tied with kamala harris or anybody actually given his background? what's the magic there?

>> i think donald trump taps into some of the kind of deepest forces in the human brain, like in so many countries. the appeal of a strongman, someone who promises to crush his enemies, the schoolyard bully that people might want to join. the reality is he's a weak spent force. he's not someone who has strength. we should take him seriously in terms of the threat he poses, but she's not someone who can actually lift anyone up or protect anyone because he's so focused just on himself, but i think that's what we're contending with. you've seen it all around the world. we saw it in '16 and 2020, so no one should underestimate the fact that he can win this election. it's going to come down to the margin of error, but also the margin of effort. join a phone bank from wherever you might be because the reason harris is working so hard so to ensure no matter what terrifying forces, people power can make the difference and tip this

election. >> yeah, and don't think someone else is going to do it so you don't have to. everybody, get involved. chair of the democratic party of wisconsin, ben wikler, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. and still ahead, we'll get back to vice president kamala harris calling out fox news on fox news. we'll play for you that moment, and much more when we come back in just two minutes. d much more in just two minutes. benefits. work with principal so we can help you with a plan that's right for clem. let our expertise round out yours.

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it's from the company with 99.9% network reliability. let's power on! power on with the leader in connectivity. stay connected with comcast business internet and wifi back-up or get started for $49.99 a month. plus ask how to get up to a $500 prepaid card. call today! you had hundreds of thousands of people come to washington. they didn't come because of me. they came because of the election. they thought the election was a rigged election, and that's why they came. some of those people went down to the capitol. i said peacefully and patriotically. nothing done wrong at all. nothing done wrong, and action was taken, strong action. ashley babitt was killed. nobody was killed. there were no guns down there. we didn't have guns. the others had guns, but we didn't have guns.

when i say we, these are people that walked down. this was a tiny percentage of the overall -- which nobody sees and nobody shows. that was a day of love from the standpoint of the millions -- it's like hundreds of thousands. it could have been -- the largest group i've ever spoken before. >> a day of love. that was former president trump during a town hall with hispanic voters, hosted by univision yesterday. he was responding to a man who said he wanted to give trump a chance to win back his vote. january 6th, a day of love. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." willie, as you know, i was off yesterday. i have been struggling with covid. >> i know. >> over the past week. >> i hope you feel better. >> i took a day off to recover. >> yeah. well, i thought a day off would help because i had all this time, you know, to rest and relax, but i took a lot of time to watch tv news, a lot, all day, and what a day it was. specifically what we saw play

out on fox news. what did you make of the vice president's interview with brett baier? >> i can't wait to get your take on this in just a minute. i think first of all, donald trump successfully worked the refs. he said in the days leading up to this that fox news had gotten weak and soft. he called bret baier soft, and he conducted that interview as if he had something to prove to him, but on the other side of it, we could talk about bret baier's performance and the fairness or unfairness he pursued those topics, but kamala harris went on fox news and took all those questions and hung in there and kept her calm and didn't attack the network or interviewer or wine that things were unfair. she talked about policy and she gave answers to tough questions, but the tone was set right from the outset with a series of questions about immigration where the vice president of the

united states wasn't really given the opportunity to respond. here's how that played out. >> how many illegal immigrants would you estimate your administration has released into the country over the last 3 1/2 years? >> well, i'm glad you raise the issue of immigration because i agree with you. it is a -- it is a topic of discussion that people want to rightly have, and you know what i'm going to talk about. >> just a number. do you think it's 1 million, 3 million? >> bret, let's just get to the point, okay? the point is that we have a broken immigration system that needs to be repaired. >> so your homeland security said that 85% of apprehensions -- >> i'm not finished. we have an immigration system that needs to be -- >> into the country. let me just finish. i'll get you the question -- >> i was beginning to answer. >> looking back, to you regret the decision to terminate remain in mexico at the beginning of your administration? >> at the beginning of our

administration within practically hours of taking the oath, the first bill that we offered congress, before we worked on infrastructure, before the inflation reduction act, before the chips and science act, before the bipartisan safer communities act, the first bill practically within hours of taking the oath was a bill to fix our immigration system. >> yes, ma'am. it was called the u.s. citizenship act of 2021. >> exactly. but -- may i please finish -- may i finish responding please? you have to let me finish, please. >> they have the white house and the senate. >> i'm responding to the point you're raising, and i would like to finish. >> yes, ma'am. >> that was the opening exchange, mika. it went on like that for nearly 30 minutes. it goes without saying that donald trump would not be given the same treatment, talked over, not allowed to finish those questions. it doesn't mean the topics weren't fair.

there was a lot in there -- >> right. >> -- that viewers wanted to hear from kamala harris. why do you have different positions now than you did in 2019? how are you going to fix the immigration crisis in all fair questions, but donald trump obviously would never be treated that way on fox news. >> no. not by -- i mean, i've watched bret baier for years, and it's just -- that was different. i think another great place to focus would be with the enemy from within comments that president trump made. you see, that's the exact phrase trump used a number of times in recent days referring to his political adversaries, and members of the press even, and the retribution he would take against them. it's decidedly un-american. it's a big story, and it's the critical backdrop to this moment in which vice president kamala harris sat down for an interview with fox news. it was supposed to give viewers an opportunity to actually hear her plans as president.

instead, as you saw, it almost immediately devolved into an embarrassing, bad faith effort by a once respected host to play to an audience of one. the host's constant rude interruptions were designed to distract from the issues and facts that trump and his acolytes try and twist and distort every day and on fox news, they try and avoid, and they couldn't. when kamala harris realized the host was not going to let her speak, the only way the vice president could give fox viewers an opportunity to hear what she had to say was to talk back over him. was he making sure that happened? i personally think absolutely. did she do well in this environment? of course. she's great. she's a former prosecutor, attorney general, senator, current vice president. she's fine with a situation like that, and even flourishes, yet

there were times she was shaking on answers about immigration. he kept coming after her, but the questions sounded like they came from a trump campaign ad. in fact, they played a trump campaign ad in the interview. the host almost seemed obsessed with transgender surgeries. the vice president kept trying to tell him she will follow the law. that was the answer. all the while, the vice president found her opportunities to make the case against donald trump. >> over the last decade, it is clear to me and certainly the republicans who are on stage with me, the former chief of staff to the president donald trump, former defense secretaries, national security adviser, and his vice president, one that he is unfit to serve, that he is unstable, that he is dangerous, and that people are exhausted with someone who professes to be a leader who

spends full time demeaning and engaging in personal grievances, and it being about him instead of the american people. >> that's the case, why is half the country supporting him? why is he beating you in a lot of swing states? why, if he's as bad as you say, that half of this country is now supporting this person who could be the 47th president of the united states? why is that happening? >> this is an election for president of the united states. it's not supposed to be easy. >> i know, but -- >> it's not suppose to be -- it is not supposed to be a cakewalk for anyone. >> 50%. are they stupid? >> oh, god. i would never say that about the american people, and, in fact, if you listen to donald trump, if you watched any of his rallies, he's the one who tends to demean and belittle, and diminish the american people. he's the one who talks about an enemy within -- within. an enemy within, talking about the american people. >> that's the part they don't

want you to hear. how fox conducted the interview is just part of the story. what was equally dismaying was another piece of the phony playbook that came earlier in the day, in the form of a fluffy town hall if you call it that, with donald trump and a hand-picked audience that appeared to have been all maga. many thanking him for gracing them with his presence. as for the content, well, trump lied to the audience about the issue of abortion, claiming it will just work itself out. it'll be okay. you're good. >> now it's what everybody has wanted it for years, and now it's working its way out in the states. nobody wanted it to be in the federal government. five or six or seven years ago, they started talking about weeks and this, but what they wanted is they wanted it back in the states for a vote of the people, and that's where we have it, and the states are now voting for it, and honestly some of them are going much more liberal,

like, in ohio, i would have thought -- >> some of them are not. >> and some of them are not, but it's going to be redone. it's going to be redone. you end up with a vote of the people, and some of them agree they're too tough, too tough, and those are going to be redone because already there's a movement in those states. i know exactly what you are talking about, to redo it. it's back in the states where they can have the vote of the people. it's exactly where they want it to be. remember this. this issue has torn this country apart for 52 years. so we've got it back in the states. we have the vote of the people and it's working its way through the system, and ultimately it's going to be the right thing. >> i want to share with you senators warnock and ossoff, mayor -- atlanta mayor bottoms and amber thurmond's family have doing a rebuttal. >> that's nice. you'll get better ratings, i

promise. >> yeah. okay. is he changing his position about abortion after overturning roe and saying women should be punished for -- and by the way, joking about a woman who died arguably because of a severe abortion ban, allowed to be in place because of donald trump. classy, but it will all work out, right? yeah. that's -- he also said by the way, this was interesting, but he's the father of ivf, moments before admitting he only learned about the issue this year. >> oh. i want to talk about ivf. i'm the father of -- i'm the father of ivf, so i want to hear this question. i got a call from katie britt, a young, just a fantastically attractive person from alabama. she's a senator, and she called me up like emergency, emergency, because an alabama judge had ruled that the ivf clinics were

illegal and they have to be closed down. a judge, and i said, explain ivf -- explain ivf very quickly, and within about two minutes, i understood it. i said, no, no. we're totally in favor of ivf. i came out with a statement within an hour, a really powerful statement with some experts, really powerful, and we -- we went totally in favor. the republican party, the whole party, alabama legislature a day later overturned, meaning approved it. overturned the judge essentially, approved it, and we really are the party for ivf. we want fertifertilization, and all the way, and the democrats tried to attack us on it, and we're out there on ivf even more than them. so we're totally in favor of it. >> when he talked about illegal immigrants in springfield, ohio, continuing his cruelty toward the legal haitians who he terrorized there, the host gently reminded him ever so lightly that they were actually

legal. >> springfield, ohio, they have 50,000 -- 52,000 people. no problems, no real crime, a beautiful community. they just dropped 30,000 illegal aliens in springfield, ohio, and it's become a different place. we're going to destroy our country. our country is going to -- it's horrible. >> actually, you know there's more to that story. they are here legally, and there are programs that the current administration has put into place to do those flights. so we recently learned -- we didn't have any number to kpar -- compare it to. so 1.5 million people have come in through those flights and they've lessened at the border because of what they're doing partially -- >> the election. >> the timing of it interesting, right? but numbers are made up by the people we can't see in the flights and all of it has a burden on the economy. >> okay.

legal, illegal, whatever, you know, but then you go to the evening. the polar opposite. we witnessed a man who spent his life as a down-the-middle journalist seeming to throw it all away for his audience of one, interrupting the vice president awkwardly and unnecessarily, ignoring many issues that define this campaign including a woman's right to health care freedom. most disturbing was when he showed a misleading clip about donald trump responding to a question about his enemy from within comments. >> he's the one who talks about an enemy within -- an enemy within, talking about the american people, suggesting he would turn the american military on the american people. >> we asked that question to the former president today. harris bachner had a town hall, and this is how he responded. >> i heard about that. they were saying i was, like,

threatening -- i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they do phony investigations. i have been investigated more than alphonse capone. it's weaponization of government. it's a terrible thing. >> bret, i'm sorry, and with all due respect, that clip was not what he has been saying about the enemy within that he has repeated when he's speaking about the american people. that's not what you just showed. >> he was asked specifically -- >> that's not what you just showed. in all fairness and respect to you -- you didn't show that, and here's the bottom line. he has repeated it many times, and you and i both know that, and you and i both know that he's talked about turning the american military on the american people. he has talked about going after people who are engaged in peaceful protest. he has talked about locking people up because they disagree with him. this is a democracy, and in a democracy, the president of the

united states -- in the united states of america, should be willing to be able to handle criticism without saying he'd lock people up for doing it, and this is what is at stake which is why you have someone like the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff saying what mark milley has said about donald trump of being a threat to the united states of america. >> she got it in there. you see the concern is that trump has clearly indicated he intends to use the military to go after his adversaries in this country -- in this country. and in his fox-friendly town hall, trump doubled down on that. this time, actually naming names, but that's not the clip they showed kamala harris, and the vice president called out fox news on fox news. here's the full clip they should have shown. >> i wasn't unhinged, you know,

they are -- they are a party of sen bites. somebody asked me, can they be brought together, you know? i never thought really i wasn't thinking like they could because they are -- they're very different, and it is the enemy from within, and they're very dangerous. they're marxists and communists and fascists, and this thing. i use a guy like adam schiff because they made up the russia hoax. it took two years to solve the problem, absolutely nothing was done wrong, et cetera, et cetera. they're dangerous for our country. we have china. we have russia. we have all these countries. if you have a smart president, they could all be handled. the more difficult are the pelosis, these people, they're so sick, and they're so evil. if they would spend their time trying to make america great again, we would have -- it would be so easy to make this country great, but i heard about that. they were saying i was, like, threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they do phony investigations.

i have been investigated more than alphonse capone. it's weaponization of government. it's a terrible thing. they're the threat to democracy. >> it's simply another sign of what appears to be a threat of fascism. yes. we need to say that word. as for fox, there was nothing fair and balanced about what we saw play out yesterday over their air waves. and so that's the context for our opening discussion. we'll sneak in a quick 90-second break and get full reaction from our panel when "morning joe" comes right back. ction from our panel when "morning joe" comes right back

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licensed humana sales agent today. humana a more human way to health care. ♪♪ with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire, the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch, charlie sykes, and publisher of "the newsletter." charlie, let's start with you. give us your first reaction to the vice president going toe to toe with fox news. >> kamala harris is doing something very interesting. she is going places that most

presidential candidates don't go. she's reaching out as creating a big tent by campaigning with republicans. she's going into the lion's den of fox news, and she's -- she's going, you know, going into aggressive hand-to-hand combat with a guy who clearly did have an audience of one. bret baier had one mission which was to engage in fan service for fox news and to get the -- to get a social media post from donald trump telling him that he did -- that he did a great job. jonathan lemire, i think pointed out -- i'm sorry. it was willie geist who pointed out trump has been working the refs and he's successfully worked the refs, but i do think this is one of those moments you step back and go, okay. we are now what, you know, three weeks out from the election. normally presidential candidates present their best and most appealing sides, right in they are appealing to the voters who are still in play. what is donald trump doing? what side of himself is he shows

himself? it really is kind of remarkable, and i think you've seen that showcased over the last 24 hours in these dueling town hall interviews. >> so donny, as i said before, the respect i have for bret baier, and he does tough interviews on his show all the time, and we want adversarial interviews and that's how you get fair questions in there about some changes in her positions on things, but they kind of gave away the game a few times, most notably when they played that clip trying to defend donald trump, and using half of the sound bite saying he didn't mean it when he said there are enemies from within on the radical left in this country. that was the third or fourth time he said that. also on fox news, and specifically he did mention adam schiff and the pelosis he called it. i guess the question for you is did that move the needle? >> i watched it in realtime, and

she did a great job. i was repulsed by bret baier. i thought he was a straight shooter, and what dawned on me is he mentioned donald trump doing an interview on msnbc. can you imagine what he would be called on? after the interview because he was challenged, he would say the license should be revoked. >> yeah. >> there's this fairness and unfairness. there's this weakness and strength and the weakness is donald trump. he didn't do "60 minutes." he won't show up for the debate, and won't do anything on an adversarial network, and he's a coward. for a litany of things he says, i think the thing yesterday that got me more than anything was when he described january 6th as a day of love. i kept picturing, you know, that song over that image. i kept picturing that. it is reprehensible the way he behaves, and it is just to the point where i'm having trouble talking to people who are voting for donald trump. i really -- it's -- i don't see

what they're not getting. how do you see that and go -- >> let's just watch again. this is -- he was talking about enemies from within. they played that misleading clip yesterday for kamala harris, and she called them out on it. here's what donald trump said beginning on sunday on fox news. >> i think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people that have come had and are destroying our country, and by the way, totally destroying our country, the towns, the villages. they're being inundated. i don't care they're the problem in terms of election. i think the bigger problem are the people from within. we have some very bad people. we have some sick people, radical left lunatics, and i think -- and it should be very easily handled, if necessary, by national guard or if really necessary, by the military because they can't let that happen. >> should be handled very easily by national guard or the military. so a couple of days ago you were here and we were talking about

kamala harris going into these places like fox news, maybe going on joe rogan's podcast and sitting there and taking the heat and coming out and it benefitting her. do you think that benefitted her yesterday? >> yeah. i think, you know, it was a rich policy discussion if you dug into it, but i think what most people are looking for is more visceral than that. people are looking for whether you have the mettle to smash the obstacles in their lives that they can't smash on themselves which they need leaders to smash for them, and i think that kind of thing, when you're up against that, it shows that to people. coming up, confronted by a republican voter about january 6th, donald trump says, nothing was done wrong that day. jonathan lemire has more on what the ex-president is now saying about the deadly insurrection straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe."

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♪♪ jonathan lemire, at the same time, there is very little time between now and election day. does kamala harris do more of these or has she done the work that needs to be done over the air waves of fox news? >> yeah. well, first of all, a couple of weeks ago, a lot of democrats in a real panic that she wasn't doing interviews, that she wasn't campaigning hard enough. that has now of course, dissipated. she had a media blitz last week with perhaps more friendly interviewers, and then this week, in the lion's den. charlamagne tha god has been skeptical, and she sat with him and going to fox news yesterday. dealing with a contentious interview, and as you well

detailed, being interrupted repeatedly, and her team feels good about what they got done yesterday. she was pressed on some tough questions. not every answer was a home run, but that she showed up, fought back, called out fox news, and donald trump for his lies, the harris spokespeople i spoke to said it showed toughness, and she was able to say things to fox viewers who wouldn't normally hear them. it's not a coincidence this happened just hours after she appeared with dozens of republicans, lawmakers who are supporting her. she's trying to say, it's okay to vote republican even just this once, but she was able to say, remind fox news viewers because they don't hear it every day, that members of trump's own cabinet, trump's own vice president, aren't supporting him this time around. >> right. >> she was able to say it to that audience. one harris adviser texted me afterwards and his word was simply, presidential. the idea of being a tough moment, standing up to someone, and delivering it, and mika, also just one more note about donald trump yesterday, that

clip we played about january 6th, talking about we as he always talks about, uses the word we when he talks about the january 6th rioters, and he says, we were there peacefully. they had the guns. the they, those are capitol police officers. that shows you donald trump's framing of january 6th. >> well, and that was the vice president -- you get a sense that there was very little time to make a point to fox viewers, but that this is an urgent time, and the message that she was trying to send to fox viewers is donald trump is unhinged, he is unfit, and he is a danger, and she made the case for why, especially using the words of the very people who worked for him, the people who have served this country, who have dealt with dictators and dangerous situations, calling him the greatest danger to america. i don't think it's something fox viewers have really had a chance to put their heads around. so it was good that she had the

opportunity to have her voice heard. that is for sure. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump's running mate, senator jd vance, gave his most direct answer yet about the results of the 2020 election. we'll play for you those remarks. "morning joe" will be right back. remarks. "morning joe" will be right back

you all have a lot of money. i know about 20 of you and you're rich as hell. we're going to give you tax cuts. i am not rich as hell. i work hard. i scrape to get by. donald trump wants to give tax breaks to billionaires, but kamala harris has plans to help us. she's going to crack down on price gouging and cut taxes for working people like me. i voted for donald trump before, but this time i'm voting for kamala. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad.

senator jd vance says now out loud that he does not believe former president donald trump lost the 2020 election. speaking at a pair of press events yesterday, the republican vice presidential nominee confirmed his stance at the event before giving a more fiery answer at the second. >> on the election of 2020, i've answered this question directly a million times. no. i think there are serious problems in 2020. so did donald trump lose the election? not by the words that i would use. i answered this question a million times when i ran for the senate, of the 2022 republican primary. i've answered this question in

the 2022 general election. i've answered this ten times recently. i think that big tech rigged the election in 2020. that's my view, and if you disagree with me, that's fine. i've been given that exact question for years, and this is such a preposterous thing that the american media does. i have given this answer to this question for literally years, and the american media wants to focus on what happened four years ago than the fact that north carolina people can't afford groceries. do your job and focus on the problems the american people care about rather than bull [ bleep ] from four years ago. >> it's funny, charlie sykes, donald trump is the one who's completely obsessed with the 2020 election, and brings it up at every rally it a every turn. jd vance has flirted with this before saying, yeah. i think there were problems with the election. now just explicitly saying the election was rigged.

of course, everyone around donald trump in the white house, around the election in november, all the way through january 6th disagreed with him. donald trump has said many times, he's let it slip when he said, he lost the election. 65 courts disagreed with jd vance's view of what happened during the election. the proof, is evidence, is all there. this is jd vance as the beta in the relationship, having to say what the big guy wants to hear. >> yeah, and that's why he's on the ticket. he's there as opposed to mike pence because he's willing to do and say what mike pence refused to do. i think that people also ought to recognize that they are laying the groundwork to doing this after this election as well. this is not simply looking back, but, you know, the gaslighting, the b.s., the cognitive incoherence of his position which is you people are obsessed with this when, in fact, he can't stop talking about it, and donald trump can't stop talking about it. he can't stop trying to glorify and rewrite the history of

january 6th, and again, as i mentioned earlier, this is an extraordinary closing argument for the trump campaign. rather than looking ahead, rather than focusing on what is in play, what are they doing? they are wallowing in donald trump -- donald trump's obsessive lie about this election. jd vance just tells us who he is in those clips, but again, i think that people ought to be very, very aware that -- that there's no way that this ticket is going to graciously concede if they lose this election. the post-election 2024, i think, has the potential to be even more outrageous than what happened after the 2020 election for a couple of reasons. number one, donald trump -- it's people like jd vance who are willing to lie and stick with that lie. he's got an entire political party and infrastructure that is unwilling to stand up to him.

they've already filed lawsuits all around the country to at least put them in position, and i think that when we go back to what the trump conspiracy was to overturn that election, all of those elements are in place, and in many cases are more plausible including using state legislatures, but what a remarkable moment for jd vance, three weeks out from the election to double and triple down on that lie. coming up, we'll talk about what's driving the day on wall street after the dow set another record. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us with business before the bell in our fourth hour. four hours of "morning joe." our four hours of "morning joe." humana medicare advantage plans. carry this card and you could have the power to unlock benefits beyond original medicare. these are convenient plans that offer all of the benefits of original medicare, plus extra coverage and benefits. with a humana

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and to all the women, and especially the young women who put their faith in this campaign and in me, i want you to know that nothing has made me prouder than to be your champion. [ cheers and applause ]

i -- i know -- i know we have still not shattered that highest and hardest glass ceiling, but some day, someone will, and hopefully sooner than we might think right now. [ applause ] >> that was hillary clinton conceding the election by the way, during her concession speech in 2016. the morning after losing to donald trump, urging women to not lose hope and they did not. following clinton's loss, a record number of women got involved in politics at the local and state level. flash forward eight years later, and several of those same women are poised to take the national stage this election cycle. as "forbes women" reports the most likely newcomers to congress in january, are women first spurred to candidacy by

the outcome of the 2016 election, now with years of service in the state legislature. here to discuss this, the vice chair of "forbes" and know your value's 3050 summit, huma abedin, and editor, maggie mcgrath. great to have you both with me. maggie, what did your team discover? >> well, mika, the big takeaway here is that the so-called pink wave that happened after 2016 was not a momentary phenomenon. it has had a lasting effect on american politics. kelly ditmar is the researcher at american politics, and she's a contributor and she writes for us that of the 15 women that are best to pick up house seats in november, eight were first elected to office after 2016, and five entered state legislate -- became state legislators in 2018 alone.

it's worth noting this effect is more pronounced among democrats than republicans. in fact, women are almost at parity with men among nominees. they're almost 46% of the nominee poll because they were more successful in their primary races. those are the numbers. some examples of the women who were inspired to run in 2016 and have state office, include maryland's state senator. in 2018, she made maryland state history when she was elected to the state senate. today she is favored to win maryland's third congressional district. over in minnesota's third congressional is a similar story. kelly morrison spent most of her career as a pracing ob-gyn, but she realized she wanted to of a voice in politics. she was elected to the statehouse in 2018, state senate in 2022, and today she's favored

to win her house district in minnesota. so i think the conclusion here is that while 2016 brought a loss for women at the top of the ticket, that moment has been a catalyst that has powered down ballot races in the years since. >> and huma, watching hillary clinton, i mean, you were there. you were deep in it through it all, and it was deeply personal and very painful, but you also witnessed firsthand how the former secretary of state built a pipeline for women to seek higher office. can you tell us more about the women maggie mentioned, but also how the dynamics since 2016 have been so motivating to more women like that to run? >> well, mika, there are three big takeaways i have both from this research and the things th drove hillary for decades, building that pipeline, doing the work, having the experience. there's that age old adage that

seeing something makes you believe it's possible. and added to that, to have the loss to then shift to the surge which was real, we saw it in 2018. you heard about the two candidates maggie just mentioned. i remember sarah jacobs, who now serves as a house member from california, and haley stevens knew what it took to be in office. the third piece, which i think is even more important, is experience. it's one thing to have the threat, the urgency, the fear, the anger of seeing your country taken away from policies that are dangerous for your family or your future and to sort of jump in the race at the state level. a lot of these women in 2018 did that and being able to write and have successful legislation on

the federal level. >> i'm curious what you've seen on the so-called trump effect since 2016 in terms of republican women seeking office? >> didn't seem to have as much effect in the post 2016 and the midterms in 2018, but post 2020 when trump lost, you saw a very similar surge on and maybe surge is a little bit of an exaggeration, but certainly an impetus for the women on the republican side to decide to run for office. sherry biggs served in the air force, has a background as a nurse practitioner. she's citing the need to return power to the people as her reason to run. you had women from illinois, from tennessee, from florida since 2020, all of whom have

sought the reasoning behind bringing america back or the border is too porous. it's great that these women are running. >> maggie, before we go, we have an announcement about forbes and know your value's fourth annual 50 over 50 global list. >> i am so excited to announce that nominations are open for the fourth annual 50 over 50 global list. it is different this year. we in the past from done regional lists. this year is one truly global list. we're simplifying it, one list, 50 people from around the world, every country other than the u.s. we are looking for women in

europe, middle east, after carbon dioxide asia, south america, central america, canada. you have to be born in 1973 or earlier. if you have a birth date ending in '74 you're too young. you have until december 1st to go to forbes.com to nominate someone you admire or to nominate yourself. >> huma abedin and maggie mcgrath, thank you both very much. get all the details about the 50 over 50 nominations and submit an application today at forbes.com and knowyourvalue.com. we have a big event coming up in just about a week that we can't wait to tell you about. we'll get to that. across the world today,

millions are celebrating spirit day, held to raise awareness about the bullying lgbtq plus youth face. a 2024 study conducted by the trevor project found that nearly half of lgbtq plus young people experienced bullying in the past year, while 39% say they seriously considered attempting suicide. joining us now, the president and ceo of glaad sarah kate ellis at nasdaq. i would like to hear more about the concern and growing numbers pertaining to bullying in this community. >> thank you for having me. we're really excited to ring the opening bell in solidarity with

our lgbtq youth. donald trump is running these anti-lgbtq ads, especially anti-trans ads he is running across the country, especially in battleground states. today is a moment we stand up and say our spirit drowns out hate. we are with these kids who are just being inundated by politics. this past year we say over 500 anti-lgbtq bills proposed. so what we've been doing, especially around trans folks, because only 70% of americans say they know someone who's trans. more americans report having seen a ghost. we're running ads in battleground states across the country to introduce folks to trans people. you can see these campaigns and ads at herewearenow.com. these ads are introducing the world to trans people, because i

think what's happening right now with these anti-trans ads is that the trump administration, because they don't have a platform, they're attacking the most vulnerable in our community and society at large. >> so you bring me to my next point, which is something i want to show you actually, something my friend and colleague stephanie ruhle did that i was just so moved by. she was speaking with a rutgers university student about the 2024 election. take a listen. >> if i were to ask vice president harris a question, i think i would ask her how soon do you think we can get the equality act passed? >> how about donald trump? >> i would ask him, do you see me as a human?

>> your response to that interview, to that state of mind that these kids are in right now? >> yeah. this is dehumanizing people. when we left people up, all boats rise in this country. it's always been that way. it will always be that way. these kids are our future. they are precious. they should be lifted, not brought down by the person who wants to be the leader of this country. so i say to those people and those kids that we're here for you, we love you and we are standing with you. and even if you can't speak up for yourself right now, we are going to be loud and proud for you. it's heartbreaking. >> glaad president and ceo sarah kate ellis, thank you so much

for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. take care. coming up on "morning joe," we're going to have more on donald trump's town hall with univision where he faced tough questions from latino voters. and the former president of the network joins us with his reaction to that event. plus, david french will explain what he calls the republican policy challenge when it comes to the former president. also ahead, emmy award winning actor jim parsons join us with the broadway revival of "our town." keep it right here on "morning joe." keep it right here on "morning joe.

so you're not joe biden, you're not donald trump, but nothing comes to mind that you would do differently? >> let me be very clear. my presidency will not be a continuation of joe biden's presidency. like every new president that

comes into office, i will bring my life experiences, my professional experiences and fresh and new ideas. i represent a new generation of leadership. i, for example, am someone who has not spent the majority of my career in washington, d.c. i invite ideas, whether it be from the republicans who are supporting me, who were just on stage with me minutes ago, and the business sector and others who can contribute to the decisions that i made about, for example, my plan for increasing the supply of housing in america. >> that was vice president kamala harris on fox news last night on how her presidency will be different than that of joe biden. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. willie, we've been talking all morning about that interview. it was tough, it was aggressive. some would say it was slanted and contextually incorrect.

and yet kamala harris came back fighting and stood her ground, trying to make sure the viewers of fox news get a sense of what's at stake if donald trump becomes the next president. but it was challenging. what's your take? >> it was one of those interviews where it depends where you sit to determine the way you watch that interview, which is, if you were watching through the eyes of a donald trump supporter and someone who's gotten information from fox news, you probably think bret baier did a good job picking apart kamala harris. i think many of the questions were fair. i didn't love how they were asked with her not getting a chance to answer them. she did a good job not only standing her ground but correcting the interview. this key exchange where donald trump saying again and again now that there's an enemy within the united states. he said don't worry about putin

and those external allies. it's the enemy within, talking about democrats like adam schiff and nancy pelosi. during the interview, bret baier played a portion of donald trump's comments from the town hall on fox news that day, but didn't play the relevant part. here's what they did show. >> he's the one who talked about an enemy within. an enemy within, talking about the american people, suggesting he would turn the american military on the american people. >> we asked that question to the former president today. harris faulkner had a town hall. this is how he responded. >> i heard about that. they were saying i was like threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they're doing phony investigations. i've been investigated more than al capone.

>> i'm sorry. with all due respect, that clip was not what he has been saying about the enemy within that he has repeated when he's speaking about the american people. that's not what you just showed. >> he was asked about that specific -- >> no, no. that's not what you just showed. here's the bottom line. he has repeated it many times. and you and i both know that. and you and i both know he has talked about turning the american military on the american people. he has talked about going after people engaged in peaceful protest. he has talked about locking people up because they disagree with him. this is a democracy. and in a democracy, the president of the united states in the united states of america should be willing to be able to handle criticism without saying he'd lock people up for doing it. this is what is at stake, which is why you have someone like the former chairman of the joint

chiefs of staff saying what mark milley has said about donald trump being a threat to the united states of america. >> you know what they are? they're a party of sound bites. fair? somebody asked me, can they be brought together? you know, i never thought really i was thinking like they could, because they are -- they're very different. and it is the enemy from within. they're very dangerous. they're marxists and communists and fascists. i use a guy like adam schiff, because they made up the russia russia russia hoax. it took two years to solve the problem. absolutely nothing was done wrong, et cetera, et cetera. we have china, we have russia, we have all these countries. if you have a smart president, they could all be handles. the more difficult -- these pelosis and these people are so sick, they're so evil.

if they spend their time making america great again, it would be so easy making this country great. they were saying i was threatening. i'm not threatening anybody. they're the ones doing the threatening. they do phony investigations. i've been investigated more than al fons ka poen. they're the threat to democracy. >> we have david french and symone sanders townsend. david, i'll start with you. first, i want to say it's so important what just happened in that interview last night that we just showed followed by the real clip. what the vice president did when she called out bret baier and fox news for showing a misleading clip, she gave americans an extremely valuable insight, an extremely valuable lesson, because there's a whole

ecosystem in the world of fox news and their viewers that feeds information to the viewers this way in a misleading way, either leaving out key points, avoiding key parts of a story, trying to protect donald trump in their narrative. and she pulled the mask off in realtime and said, look at what you're doing, you're misleading the american people. you showed a clip that had nothing to do with what we were talking about, and he did address it in that town hall, and you chose not to show the information that would be valuable to your viewers. it was a service. it was an incredible realtime explanation of what happens with misleading information, and if i may say it, disinformation. but the question, david french,

i have for you is, will it be enough? >> you know, at this point it really is remarkable with the twists and turns in the race that in normal races would have ended this thing, in normal races, for example, that first debate would have ended this thing, especially given donald trump's record. we're talking now about adjustingat the a absolutely margins on a day-by-day week-by-week basis. i don't think we can say anything about will this make a difference or not. we're just at that incredible margin right now. it's staggering that we're here. it's stunning that that many people will vote for somebody who's demonstrated as much

corruption and menace as donald trump, but here we are. >> why the vice president went into that arena in the first place, some of her campaign told me, yes, it was an appeal to some of those perhaps on the fence. and just to say something to a fox news audience that they don't hear. they also said she showed a real toughness by going in there and standing toe to toe in what was clearly an unfriendly venue. >> i'm not of ilk that she had to do that. there are people out there that say she had to have done a fox news interview. today we're learning that apparently donald trump has postponed another interview with our nbc news colleague christine romans on top of not participating in "60 minutes." however, if the campaign is saying they are out there to get every single vote as the

campaign has said, the vice president has been clear that she doesn't want any unforced errors and, two, she's not going to allow anyone who say she didn't earn this nomination. you have to meet the voters where they are and go to all the places the voters you're trying to get read, watch and listen to. some of the voters within the kamala harris coalition, that is one of the places that they watch. i thought that the vice president held her own. i was really floored, frankly, by the tone of the interview. i've been in the room and prepped a vice president in previous capacity for a number of interviews that ended up being tough. i've sat there. i know what a tough interview sounds like. there's a difference between a tough interview and an abrasive interview. a tough interview doesn't have to be abrasive.

more than that, the tone of the interview, from the first question, i watched it live. i was actually listening to it on sirius xm. i was like i need to see this. to know the first question out of the mouth of the interviewer was about immigration, but the way the question was phrased, how many illegal immigrants would you estimate you and the president let out into the country? come on, y'all. y'all know that's not how this works. there is a level of respect that i think the american media affords to a sitting president and a sitting vice president, and there are times when we've got to put some respect to the side because people are lying. this was not that. in this interview vice president harris, for lack of a better term, matched the energy that bret baier brought, while also being able to get her message out. she didn't allow him to talk

over her. she dropped her website. she introduced information that frankly they had not heard before. it was a win. i thought it was important. but, like, it was crazy. >> it felt so unusual. i mean, i've watched bret for years, and i haven't seen this before, but that's okay. she did fine. in fact, i think she excelled and had some incredibly powerful moments that hopefully was enlightening to an audience that doesn't usually get information and facts like that. on immigration, she made it very clear that biden and harris were willing to work with republicans and pass a bill that was tough, and trump killed it. to david french's point, they probably haven't gotten a sense of the corruption and the menace that donald trump poses to the american republic, because they don't address that he's a convicted felon.

they don't address that he defames women. they don't address that he paid off a porn star when his wife was pregnant for some sort of situation. anyway, it's campaign finance that ultimately was the crime. but there's so much about them that they don't address. and they don't address that he refused to debate again, because he lost the debate, because he looked old, unhinged, inarticulate and unmatched compared to the vice president. he won't do aggressive interviews like the one kamala harris did with bret baier last night. he won't do it. he won't do "60 minutes." he's too scared. he actually is too scared to be held to account. she was not scared to walk into fox news and be asked as many questions as possible. it was aggressive, it was tough. she was absolutely fine. she has answered, kamala harris,

every criticism that has come her way. oh, she doesn't do enough interviews. okay, i'll do interviews. she doesn't do enough events or radio shows. okay. i'll do events and radio shows. she has outmatched the former president, beaten him every time they have met face to face and has shown americans what he can't do, which is be accountable in a real interview setting. donald trump made his pitch directly to latino voters yesterday during a town hall with the spanish language network univision. in it, the former president calls the january 6th capitol insurrection, quote, a day of love. and also did not back down from false claims that haitian migrants were eating pets in springfield, ohio. take a look. >> you had hundreds of thousands of people come to washington. they didn't come because of me.

they came because of the election. they thought the election was a rigged election, and that's why they came. some of those people went down to the capitol. i said peacefully and patriotically, nothing done wrong. action was taken, strong action. ashley babbitt was killed. we didn't have guns down there. when i say we, these are the people who walked down. this is a tiny percentage of the overall, which nobody sees and nobody shows. it was a day of love from the standpoint of the millions -- it was hundreds of thousands. it could be the largest group i've ever spoken before. >> my question to you, respectfully is, do you really believe these people are eating the people's pets? >> thank you. >> thank you very much. this was just reported. i was just saying what was reported, what's been reported and eating other things too that

they're not supposed to be. all i did was report. i was there. i'm going to be there and we're going to take a look. i'll give you a full report when i do. but that's been in the newspapers and reported broadly. you have a city of 52,000 people, and they've added almost 30,000 migrants into the city. if you were a person that lived there, if you lived in springfield, ohio, and all of a sudden you couldn't get into a hospital or you couldn't get your children into a school, you wouldn't be able to buy groceries, you could no longer pay the rent because the government's paying rent, if any of that happened, it would be a disaster for you and you wouldn't be happy. >> so, again, you have a situation where former president trump is being asked questions and he proceeds to lie many times, and he's allowed to drone on and on with those lies

unchecked. joining us now is former president of univision joaquin blya. i'm wondering if he was able to win over more voters from the community? >> mika, you were talking a few minutes ago about this ecosystem that exists in fox news. what happened last night at the univision town hall, it was an extension of that. it was really not a town hall. it was an infomercial. he went onto recite his concert of lies without any journalism

integrity on the part of the network, without any fact checking. so he spoke uninterrupted saying many of the things we have seen him say for the last few months, but some of the things he has been saying in the last few months, which are very relevant to hispanics, were not brought up. for example, we are poisoning the blood of this country. >> right. >> that we includes me and my family. that he is working on the largest deportation project in american history where he is planning to raid and put in camps millions of people. obviously he went on talking about the haitians in springfield, legal citizens of this country, which were invited

by that city to help provide services and jobs. it goes on and on. i think you have covered this subject at length this morning. the question here is univision did not distinguish themselves as being a true news organization. as a platform for close to an hour of his continuing recital of lies. >> there are so many issues central to the lives of latino americans in this country that were not addressed yesterday. i guess the question is, why? donald trump only goes places where he knows he'll have a friendly reception. but on the example we showed there about the immigrants

eating pets in springfield, ohio, which is so quickly and easily refuted by the facts. you can cite fellow republican, the mayor, the governor saying it was complete nonsense. why wasn't he pressed on some of his lies? >> truly i cannot respond for the network, but the person that was conducting the -- let's call it the town hall -- was the same person that did what i call when i spoke at -- [ indiscernible ] what i call a propaganda project. the main anchor of the univision network is jorge ramos, one of the most respected journalists in america. you have would have thought that jorge would have to be the

person doing the interview and the town hall. yet they, again, decided to put on someone that they brought from mexico, and the results are what you saw last night where they allow trump to go freely reciting his traditional list of lies. >> thank you very much for coming on. i really appreciate your important insight this morning. thank you very much. >> thank you. david, i'd like to dig into that if i could a little bit, because you heard what the former head of that network said about what happened last night on univision, that it was

basically propaganda, that again trump was allowed to rant on unchecked, and he wasn't asked about the very things he's said about people of color and how that potentially translates into a much more dark and scary future for our country, which i think makes the vice president's appearance on fox news all the more relevant, that she was willing to confront of donald trump's influence on the media. she's trying so hard to get the truth to where it needs to go. the question will be every step of the way, will it be enough? >> well, you know, the thing i thought was really important, especially in the exchange that was highlighted over the enemy within comment, the thing that was so important is that it

showed how fox protects its own audience from the truth about donald trump. and by stopping there in that moment, by confronting bret in that moment, she was able to maybe break through just a little bit. it's not just, by the way, the audience that was watching live that really matters here. it's also the audience that will be seeing that clip, the people who will watch that exchange later on, that will echo and go beyond that live audience. again, what we have is a world in which millions and millions of voters are protected by their own media from the truth about trump. so, again, if that moment can break through the few, it was absolutely worth it. >> yeah. she showed the truth. david french, thank you very much. david's latest column is available to read online now. and symone sanders townsend,

thank you as well. coming up, donald trump claims he saved american jobs by threatening the farming giant john deere with tariffs. the only problem with that tale, it's, like many other things he says, just not true. we'll bring you that fact check straight ahead. plus, the israeli military is investigating whether the leader of hamas was among three militants killed in gaza during its operations there. we'll get a live report from tel aviv, next. we'll get a live report from tel aviv, next

san francisco is in crisis and we need real experienced leadership. we need mark farrell. our interim mayor who got things done. who showed we can clear tent encampments, fight crime, and address the drug crisis. who will make the tough choices for our city's future. "i'm mark farrell. i'm running for mayor because san francisco deserves better." "i'm ready to deliver that change on day one."

mark farrell. a proven leader with the experience we need. >> donald trump claiming he persuaded the deere company to reconsider its move to mexico. however, the company says that claim is not true. deere says it didn't make any announcement about cancelling plans to build farm tractor cabs and some construction machinery at plants in mexico. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. if what donald trump said were true there, it would have been news to a lot of people. turns out it wasn't true. >> it's just so vexing, because this goes to the very issue of truth. you know, we often talk about what you can see with your own eyes. you just saw a video of former president trump saying very directly that he was responsible for this company announcing

something that this company did not announce. i mean, it's literally like it's sunny out today and it's like saying it's raining. it's so clear. it's so clear. the lie is so evident. so sometimes people say the media is biased towards one person or another. i say the journalists are biased towards truth. when you have blatant examples of just demonstrable lying, it's hard to get your head around how you're supposed to believe anything. deere did announce they're going to be cutting about 300 jobs, in part because they're saying that farmers in america are struggling and struggling to afford some of their products. now, that's an interesting point to make, because if you start to

think about where former president trump was going with his plan for tariffs against a company like deere, you start to think about who is going to be injured. who is going to be injured if those cabs are made ultimately -- if there's a tariff, farmers can't afford to buy the tractors that they need to produce their own profits. it's a very circular and vexing conundrum/problem/lie. >> a couple of weeks ago donald trump said he was going to put a 200% product on deere products if they did make them in mexico. we always talk about wall street, the world of finance, business, corporate america, just want stability regardless of party. so many ceos and guys on wall

street and tech entrepreneurs are supporting donald trump despite the chaos that he brings to the process. >> you know, very interestingly, sam drug -- said he believes there is something called the trump trade taking place. he believes the markets are showing that trump is going to be the next president of the united states. he looks at things like bitcoin, the price of trump media, which we've talked about, which has fallen precipitously but in recent weeks has risen. he's looking at the overall market and saying that he believes that the business world is voting, if you will, maybe not at the ballot, but with their feet in terms of who they expect is going to win. i'm not sure that's necessarily the case. i think there's a lot of reasons bitcoin has gone up.

there's a lot of strange reasons why trump media has moved around. there are missing pieces to the business community and perhaps they might be missing parts of the country. again, we've still got 19 days now, and we will see. >> again, that statement he made about deere and company just flatly untrue. andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much as always. still ahead, tony nominated, emmy and golden globe winning actor jim parsons joins us. s us you all have a lot of money. i know about 20 of you and you're rich as hell. we're going to give you tax cuts. i am not rich as hell. i work hard. i scrape to get by.

donald trump wants to give tax breaks to billionaires, but kamala harris has plans to help us. she's going to crack down on price gouging and cut taxes for working people like me. i voted for donald trump before, but this time i'm voting for kamala. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad. (man) these men of means with their silver spoons. what will become of them when they discover robinhood gold allows others to earn their very liberal rates on idle cash. they would descend into chaos.

to my son, i've never been the cool dad. i always wanted to know what he's up to online. but with tiktok's privacy settings being on by default for teens under 16, accounts are set to private. he cannot send or receive dm's, and only his friends can comment. so he can post away, and i've got one less thing, to worry about. so, dad, how old do you have to be to get a tattoo? uh, um. teen safety settings on by default.

♪♪

this play is called "our town." in it you will see billy eugene

jones, katie holmes, julie halston. >> there are some things we all know but we don't take them out and look at them very often. >> people are meant to go through life two by two. >> you've got to love life to have life, and you've got to have life to love life. it's what they call a vicious circle. >> you're too wonderful. >> that is a new at the new broadway revival of "our town" written by thornton wilder. it takes the audience back to

grovers corner, new hampshire. joining us now, jim parsons and the director kenny leon. kenny, can i start with you and that cast you assembled. i'm sure they were drawn to you because of your incredible track record on broadway. what a group. >> i am the luckiest director in america. it's the best. we say this all the time, but we had five weeks of rehearsal before we got into the theater, but just coming to work every day with 28 wonderful actors but better human beings, it doesn't get much better than that for me. we would spend first 30 minutes of rehearsal talking about what happened, what did you see, what was it like with your wife last night, did you talk to your

daughter? as actors, we're dealing with human behavior. i'm the luckiest guy in the world. >> jim, you've done so much in your career on screen and on stage. but i have to imagine for any actor, "our town" you jumped right on it. >> yes. i said yes before i knew i'd be any good at it. if somebody asks you to do "our town" you just get on board and do it. i'd never worked with kenny before, but i admire his work and i admire him. i'd never worked with a single member of this cast. kenny is describing that morning thing where you would talk about what you observed in your own little town, it was so amazing

because it gave you the chance to hear people's interpretations of what they see around them. that's different than having a conversation with them. you get to hear how they see the world. >> i always loved the play, because growing up in florida, i didn't see myself in that play. but it allowed me to see it through my eyes. my mother, who lives in tampa, florida, called me on the phone and i put it on speakerphone and she said a prayer for us and said trust god. this production has been touched since my mother blew life into it. zoey deutsche, katie holmes, you

can't lose. >> and a blessing from your mother on top of it all. this is where jim's character introducing the audience to the town where the play is set. >> the name of the town is grovers corners, new hampshire, just across the massachusetts line. the first act shows a day in our town. the day is may 7th, 1901. the time is just before dawn. the sky is beginning to show some streaks of light over in the east there behind our mountains. the morningstar always gets wonderful bright the minute before it has to go, doesn't it? >> the role of the stage manager is really truly an iconic role. this character was played by

paul newman, henry fonda. what was it like to bring your own spin to the stage manager? >> pretty thrilling, to be honest with you. i did a lot of research about thornton wilder, the author, because i felt like if any character was speaking for the author, the stage manager of "our town" probably is it. i got kind of his frame of reference, maybe, but i also realized anybody who plays a stage manager, it's crucial to bring yourself to it. you are the broker between the characters and the themes on stage and the audience. it's a direct address all night to them. if there's any false about that that would ever off put the audience, you can't tell the story properly. that's been a really exciting

challenge to go out there and bravely look into the face of a thousand people and try not to lie. >> you won the tony for "a raisin in the sun." how do you take something that is so iconic and so well known to so many people and modernize it while preserving what it's really about? >> i'm always interested in what a hundred years ago looked like running into 2024, creating a fantastical place called now. i'm getting ready to do othello. i'm going to approach it differently. jim cares. he leans in with joy and love. it's like he has the entire 1200 people in the audience sitting in the palm of his hand and a

beautiful heartbeat is pumping, pumping saying we can do better. our town is metaphorical to our world, our time, our country, our people. he makes me love america all over again every night. >> wow. >> that's very nice. >> high praise. >> it is high praise. what's interesting when he talks about he didn't like the play, i also had misconceptions about the play. i thought it was about a very specific time and place. and it is in the setting, but the tale -- i think the whole point of it actually is it doesn't have a date on it. we had to pick a date to do a play, and thornton picked this date. the message seems to be that things don't change much around here. he's talking about our interactions with one another. that i didn't realize was in there until we really dug in. the way you work is how they

came to resonate for me. >> "our town" is in performances now for a limited run at the barrymore theater on broadway. congratulations. thanks for being here. coming up next, our good buddy from america's most beloved weatherman to chef, the man knows his way around a kitchen. al roker and his supremely talented daughter courtney are here to talk to us about their new cookbook, for which courtney did all the work. , for icwhh coy did all the work

the best part that i'm looking forward to this year is that i'm a grandfather. [ applause ] >> cheers to that. >> cheers to papa. >> i visited al in the hospital

not long ago, so that warms my heart. >> well, this little girl, and you hear people go, oh, my grandchild. i was like, bla, bla, bla, bla. then this kid hits, and it's like, oh, my gosh. >> how is it different? >> because it's pure joy there's no responsibility, other than you want them to be safe and happy. but it's just you and her and you're not worried about, you know, i don't have to teach her anything other than, hey, i'm the candiman. >> that is our good friend, co-anchor al roker on father's day, talking about the joys of being a father and now a grandfather over some of the best pizza in new york. the intersection of food and family at the heart of al's new cookbook. al, one of his daughters, professional chef courtney roker co-wrote the book. al and courtney join us now.

so great to have you guys on this side of 49th street. >> i'm never here this early. is this is is fantastic. congratulations on the book. i was so honored to be at your book party the other night and to hear the story and the genesis of how this came together. so courtney, you were the chef, the professional chef. al's a great cook. >> let's not -- >> so how did this come together between the two of you? >> so, umm, you know, during the pandemic, he was making a lot of social videos with my little brother, nick. dad would make an appearance once in a while and he was getting positive feedback, saying you should write a cookbook. i was thinking i'm a recipe developer, this is a great opportunity to write a cookbook and a great bonding experience. i brought the idea to him and he was not interested at first. >> you turned down your daughter? >> i had written one 30 years ago and i know how much work it

is. i said we'll do this, but you have to do the recipes. i'll write the head notes, but this is your baby, literally. >> where do you begin? al, nobody cooks like you, but where do you begin as a professional chef, courtney? >> i had to talk to some people. i talked to, obviously him from recipes from my grandmother, my mom, any inlaws and get as much information as possible. >> we want to do a family cookbook. but i don't know in your house, but nobody wrote anything down. so she had to be this recipe detective to figure out what would go into what. >> i know this is a tough question, but do we have favorites in the book? are there go-to recipes you'll cook on a weekend? >> i love my mom's collard greens, cinnamon buns.

>> i thought your first recipe was a drink. >> i love my mother's ox tail stew and dumplings. as we get into the cold weather, there was nothing better than coming into the house and smelling that. the dessert was this old school, pineapple upside down cake. nice, simple, but it's just good stuff. >> can we talk about the family dynamic here, which is so beautiful. i wrote a book with my dad ten years ago. one of the unexpected beauties oh of that was spending all this time with him, just doing interviews and going on book tours. what has it been like for you, courtney? >> lately, it's been great. >> wow, wow. >> whoa! >> no, it's been amazing. my dad, not everyone can say that, doing something so special. the cookbook process is a little stressful. now that we're here, it's been great. >> you know, when it's time to show up for a show, you're here.

when it came to deadlines, i'm a little fuzzy. so she's dad, we've got to do this! okay. >> but this really is -- we were just talking, as your kids get older, they have their wn lives. >> this is the most time we've spent one on one since she was in elementary school when we would take road trips. and you know, and you'll see this as yours get older, it is so special to realize that your kid is really good at what they do. >> yeah. >> and she's a professional, and she's really good. she ease done restaurant work, worked at michelin star restaurants. >> and a personal chef. >> tiny spoon chef. >> give a plug-in. >> she's a really good mom, you know. >> thanks. >> she's got a great partner in her hubby, wes. it's the whole package.

>> super stuff. >> this is just like the icing on the cake. >> oh, thanks. >> mika's got a question for you guys. >> i love this. i want to do the cinnamon buns. i have to tell you, this is so close to my heart, because i've been trying to hard to remember my mom's yellow cookies recipe and get it right. my daughters and i keep trying to make it and do it by taste. but i also have been watching you, al roker, over the years and you look amazing. >> thank you. >> some of these -- i mean that in like the most -- in terms of health. some of these recipes are so healthy and wonderful. tell us about those. >> well, i don't really care about those. no, because deborah -- she said, you should put something healthy in there. >> there's a couple. >> they're really good. >> just to say they're there. it's like, my daughter, leila, the veggie burger. and there's some things that you could theoretically make

healthy. but come on. but the good news, it's about moderation. you're going to eat all this stuff every day, but you can find stuff in there if you would like. >> i found a few. i love it. >> there you go. but i just want -- the smothered chicken is for joe. >> yes. joe's not looking for the healthy ones. he's not a veggie burger guy. guys, so great to have you here. congratulations. the new cookbook is "al roker's recipes to live by, easy, memory-making family dishes for every occasion." it is on sale now. love you both. >> thank you. >> congratulations. >> sweet, willie geist. >> we got it in. mika? >> before we close our show, i want to get to our top story and review what we've talked about over the past four hours. and take a moment to really talk about the dangerous time that we are in, in our nation's history. i've been thinking a lot about

my father escaping the invasion of poland, making his way to canada, and then to the united states to become a beacon of staving off russian aggression and other threats from abroad to preserve our precious democracy. my parents came here as refugees of war, with nothing. and i won't go way back in time, although we should. just in the past week, former president donald trump has talked about a day of violence in his next presidency. he called january 6th a day of love. he talked about attacking the enemy from within. going after his political adversaries using his own military. and he redoubled down on his lies about haitians in springfield. jd vance tried to double down about the 2020 election.

general milley sums it up this way -- "donald trump is fascist to the core," his words. yet the circus of lies continues, as if nothing is going on here. that's why what we saw last night was remarkable. kamala harris knows her value and the value of the truth. the vice president uncovered many layers of lies from both former president donald trump and the media bending to his will in that one incredible moment when she called out brett bair for showing that misleading clip. it told the truth about where we are right now, and i hope citizens of this beautiful country take note. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now, and whether the leader of h