target, yahya sinwar, and benjamin netanyahu's message that the mission won't stop until the hostages are returned. lucky break, that's how pentagon officials are describing the israeli military operation that killed that leader. how much did the u.s. know ahead of time?

plus, what's next? how the world is reacting to the death of sin war, and what it means for the war that grips the middle east and president biden's foreign trip at this important time. he's making his expected final trip to europe today as president. his meeting with world leaders there as this news breaks. our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments. we begin with nbc's matt bradley in lebanon, covering the death of that powerful and elusive leader. what's the latest? what have you learned, matt? >> reporter: yeah, well this obviously could become a paradigm shift in the fighting not only in the gaza strip which has been going on for well more than a year. but also here in lebanon. you know, we've heard from benjamin netanyahu, the prime minister of israel in just the past couple of minutes, and he addressed the elephant in the room, which is whether or not yahya sinwar's death means the death of fighting not only in the gaza strip but here in lebanon, the depth of the

fighting across the entire region. everybody is waiting to see how the israelis respond and retaliate against the iranians, the much telegraphed response that they have been talking about for weeks now, ever since the missile barrage from the iranians. all of these things, all of these theaters of conflict are tied together. one of the questions is about the hostages, more than 100 people, mostly israelis, few americans held in the gaza strip, netanyahu addressed that directly in his speech just a few minutes ago. >> the mission ahead of us has not been completed. dear families of the hostages, this is a very important moment in the war. we will continue with all of our strength until all your dearly beloved hostages that we love so much will be brought home. it is our commitment. it is a supreme commitment. sinwar really destroyed your lives, and i'm telling all of

you in the gaza. he was hiding in a little dark cave, and he was killed when he was running away from our soldiers. this is the end of the evil rule of the hamas. >> reporter: and, you know, there was another moment in this speech where netanyahu rattled off all of the militant leaders who he's killed, who the israeli military has killed in the past year, including hassan nasrallah, the leader of hezbollah, a number of others, haneah. it hasn't brought peace but this might be the last final link to bring some peace to, again, what i'm describing, this all encompassing war at least from the israeli perspective is being directed by the iranians. whether that's true or not, the coming weeks and months will only be able to tell.

the fact is each of these leaders so far, and each of these different groups, hezbollah, the houthis, hamas, they're all able to be replace replaced. it doesn't cut the head off the snake. it allows a new head to grow back. that's the worry here, this won't necessarily represent the paradigm shift that the hostage families have been so desperate for over the past year of fighting and after seeing their hostages and their fallen members being held for so long, and seeing all of these dashed attempts at some sort of peace deal in the gaza strip. netanyahu also addressed the people of gaza essentially telling them now hamas no longer has an ironclad rule over the gaza strip. they will never rule there again is the words that he used. now, that's not entirely clear either. there have been words like that used by the united states in the past against dictators that have been filled by american force as

well. so, you know, this is a big moment. this is a big opening for the entire region, whether or not the leaders in this region are able to take advantage of it, and bring a comprehensive piece to all of these theaters of conflict, that's something that's going to weigh on their own consciousness! matt bradley, thank you. u.s. officials are in close contact with israelis throughout the morning. a u.s. official tells nbc news. i want to bring in my colleague, andrea mitchell who's chief foreign affairs correspondent. what is this likely impact on u.s. diplomacy? >> it could have enormous impact, depending of course, on what happens now on the ground. the president was in touch, jake sullivan, on air force one with him, briefing him, talking to the israeli officials as they were trying to get the dna and confirm what they knew visually , what they had assumed, it was

indeed similar. once they got the confirmation, they reached back to air force one with that confirmation. we're understanding that there will be more statements here from the white house, from the state department. it would be understandable if you would also hear from vice president harris on the road. clearly, this is such a huge development. all along chris, as you know, traveling with secretary blinken, bill burns, here, overseas, as they were meeting. shuttle diplomacy. ten missions, at teach step, netanyahu would frequently october, but then the final say was always sinwars, hanear, the other official that netanyahu mentioned today, he was living in doha, qatar, and could not give the final say because it was always sinwho was the

instigator, the master mind. not communicating by cell phones because he was wary for good reason of being blown up or tracked bit israelis, so sending messengers back and forth, and it was always he that tony blinken would tell us was the ultimate obstacle to a cease fire and release of the hostages. i also thought your interview, i know so well being with him in israel and here was so compelling, and this is the focus now. and what netanyahu said in his speech was that the war continues until we bring the hostages home. that's not what they want to hear. they want to hear there's going to be a cease fire. the war will end now. we have achieved our goals, and now we can bring our loved ones home because they believe as long as there is fighting there is still the possibility. and now as you heard, it's more likely now that something could happen. we are now in dread.

this is a long. there could be real congratulation, and that's an enormous fear for the hostage families as they pray and wait and hope that this will be released for the hostages. >> they obviously have been praying and waiting and hoping for 377 days. andrea mitchell, thank you for that reporting. we're also getting reaction to the death of sinwar from leaders around the world. nbc's keir simmons is following this for us. what's the latest? >> reporter: here in the gulf and arab region, we're not hearing very much. i think that speaks volumes. the governments here will be making their own assessments. they will be trying to figure out exactly what andrea and matt were talking about, what impact will this have. will there be a domino effect. we can talk about what's been happening over the past few weeks. what we have seen is the

standoff between israel and iran. we were in qatar when the president was there. we saw the pictures. he was there meeting with hamas leadership. not yahya sinwar, of course, who is leader of the military wing and was still in gaza, but iran's reaction will be crucial. the iranians had a vision, talking about yahya sinwar as a martyr. we wait to hear from the iranians themselves. there won't be many tears among arab nations for someone like yahya sinwar. there will also be cynicism about whether this can be the moment that changes things, the wait that matt was talking. by the way, there's always going to be, you know, a fascinating question, and i think this will come out in the coming hours and days of exactly how the israelis reached yahya sinwar. reports had said in recent months that he was passing handwritten messages from couriers, in order to hide his

location. in a sense, he was in a corner, depicted as powerful and calculating, but actually running hamas, but not able to come out and talk publicly. in needing to do that in a clandestine way from the shadows. our understanding was that yahya sinwar who knew gaza very well, born in khan younis, knew it like a blueprint. he wasn't using digital technology, to stop the israelis from finding him. that will be a question, and then again, back to the other point, will this be an opportunity for israel, which is poised to launch that strike on iran, will it be an opportunity to not go so far, for that not to escalate, where it will, as it seems to be, from his peach -- speech there, will it fire israel up and make israel's leaders more determined to pursue further conflict, and to try to, you know, banish their

enemies, if you like. with all of the questions about whether that's really possible. >> keir simmons, thank you for that. well, president biden has been briefed on air force one on the death of sin war, while he flies to germany for what is expected to be his final trip to europe as president. aaron gilchrist is in berlin ahead of president biden's visit there. what can you tell us? >> reporter: president biden is expected to land in berlin in a little less than two hours. he was briefed on air force one about the developments in gaza. we know jake sullivan and secretary of state tony blinken are on air force one. and so they were able to update him as developments were happening. the secretary of defense lloyd austin also here in europe meeting with nato defense ministers. we understand from a defense official that he was handed a

note during one of his meetings about what was developing in the middle east and his since spoken with the israeli defense minister as well. these developments have been happening quickly over the last several hours. we know that president biden has been kept abreast of these developments while he has been in the air. we also know that this is -- sin war is a man that the biden administration has pointed to as the master mind of the attack in israel. the administration has said time and again, he has been an impediment at different points in the process of trying to get to a cease fire, trying to get to a hostage release, and so we anticipate that at some point -- >> i'm going to interrupt you, aaron, because here's kamala harris at the podium. let's listen. yahya sinwar, the leader of hamas is dead, and justice has been served. and the united states, israel, and the entire world are better off as a result.

sinwar was responsible for the killing of thousands of innocent people, including the victims of october 7 and hostages killed in gaza. he had american blood on his hands. today, i can only hope that the families of the victims of hamas feel a sense and measure of relief. sinwar was the master mind of october 7, the deadliest for the jewish people since the holocaust. a terrorist attack that killed 1,200 innocent people and included horrific sexual violence, and more than 250 hostages taken into gaza, including seven americans, living and deceased who remain in captivity. a terrorist attack that triggered a devastating war in gaza a war that has led to unconscionable suffering of many

innocent palestinians. and greater instability throughout the middle east. in the past year, americans special operations and intelligence personnel have worked closely with their israeli counter parts to locate and track sinwar and other hamas leaders. and i commend their work. and i will say, to any terrorist who kills americans, threatens the american people, or threatens our troops or our interests, know this. we will always bring you to justice. israel has a right to defend itself. and the threat hamas poses to israel must be eliminated. today there is clear progress toward that goal. hamas is decimated and its leadership is eliminated. this moment gives us an

opportunity to finally end the war in gaza. it must end such that israel is secure, the hostages are released, the suffering in gaza ends and the palestinian people realize their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self-determination, and it is time for the day after to begin. without hamas in power. we will not give up on these goals, and i will always work to create a future of peace, dignity, and security for all. thank you all. >> is the u.s. asking israel to end the war now, madame vice president? >> vice president kamala harris who is in milwaukee, wisconsin, where she is going to be attending a campaign event, la

crosse, wisconsin, a little bit later today, but you heard what she would to say, justice has been served, yahya sinwar had american blood on his hands. she spoke of the 250 hostages. there are still americans being held. she also added hamas is decimated. this is an opportunity to finally end the war in gaza. her statement before the cameras came simultaneously with a statement from the white house. we mentioned just a short time ago that president joe biden is on air force one on his way o germany. his statement says among other things this is a good day for israel, the united states and for the world. after over 1,200 people were killed, the deadliest day for jews since the holocaust. he also said i will be speaking soon with prime minister benjamin netanyahu and other israeli leaders to congratulate

them, to discuss the pathway for bringing hostages home to their families, and for ending this war once and for all which has caused so much devastation to innocent people. there is now the opportunity for a day after in gaza without hamas in power, and for a political settlement that provides a better future for israelis and palestinians alike. yahya sinwar was an insurmountable obstacle to achieving all of those goals. that obstacle no longer exists, but much remains before us. i want to bring in ambassador dennis ross who for more than a decade played a leading role in shaping u.s. involvement in the middle east. also with us, former deputy national security adviser and msnbc political contributor, ben rhodes. thank you so much, both of you, for being with us. ambassador, you heard the words echoed by the president and vice president, there is an opening here, an opportunity to finally end the war.

how big of an opportunity do you see? >> i do agree there's an opportunity, and i do agree there's time for the israelis having achieved remarkable military and intelligence successes to focus on how to translate the achievements into a political outcomes. this is a moment where i think if israel would come out and the prime minister would come out and focus on the successes, one of the things he could do is end the war provided the hostages are released. this is from that standpoint an opportunity to create a new circumstance with regards to trying to get the hostages released, up until recently we're in a position where the administration itself was saying sinwar was not prepared to do anything. that meant there was no hostage deal that was going to be available. i think right now, you make the kind of declaration i was just suggesting. maybe also make a declaration where you offer safe passage for those holding the hostages or

monetary rewards. that may create opportunities both for the hostages, but also for thinking about, as i said, how do you take our achievements and turn them into political outcomes. >> i just had the pants of omer neutra on this program, and obviously they believe this is justice but says it puts our family at greater risk. tell us about that, and about the time line that you think the u.s., other involved parties are operating under, if indeed, there is going to be some sort of agreement that will include bringing the hostages home. >> i am worried that in the immediate aftermath of sinwar being killed, you may see some of those holding the hostages, they may choose to react to that, and i would worry about the fate of the hostages because of that. all the more reason in my mind, to be out there, emphasizing, a,

they got a safe passage out, monetary rewards, and b, a readiness to declare because of the successes, a readiness to end the war, provided the hostages are released. i do think there will probably be an effort by the israelis with the egyptians and the qataris to follow up and see if there's a possible opening to get a deal on the hostages. i see all of this reflecting a kind of moment where there should be a new level of activity. i would like to see a strategic orientation, also with the immediacy of trying to get the hostages out. >> i don't know if you had an opportunity to listen to what benjamin netanyahu had to say, but a couple of key things was now it's clear, he said, why we continued fighting, and a message to hamas, which was, it is your opportunity to be free of his tyranny. all of your leaders will be

eliminated. what is your take away from his comments just less than an hour ago? >> well, i mean, it doesn't seem he's taking the opportunity that the administration is mentions, that in addition to this being a measure of justice, in addition to this being a tremendous accomplishment for the israeli security forces, this is also an opportunity to bring the war to an end, in that context, try to get the release of the remaining hostages. dennis spoke so some ideas, and represents exchange. prime minister netanyahu, the reason this is an opportunity, he said as a military objective, essentially the destruction of hamas. there is not going to be a

moment in which hamas comes out and surrenders. there's also not going to be a moment which you can say, you definitively eliminated hamas, given how widespread the presence of hamas, and hamas operatives are in a place like gaza as well as, you know, frankly hezbollah and lebanon. this is the clearest moment. this is not a moment he can take kind of politically to say, we've eliminated the master mind, head of the military wing, the person most responsible for october 7th. if this opportunity isn't the one taken, it becomes very unclear what the moment of conclusion will be. so this is both an opportunity, but the danger is if it's not taken, then we are in this kind of open-ended state of war. and prime minister kind of emphasized his willingness to continue the war, to perpetuate the war. the question is whether that is a messaging or whether that is a preclude to some diplomacy that

seeks to take advantage of the window that's been opened here. we'll see in the coming days. thus far, it seems like prime minister netanyahu is pretty committed to the continued military operation in gaza and lebanon, but we'll see whether this shifts. >> i mean, there is one key element of how big the window, how big the opening is right then, which is what really is hamas, without yahya sinwar. what is it? and we've seen time and time again that a leader's gone, and a leader is replaced. >> that's right. i mean, you know, the reality of both hezbollah and hamas, where, you know, clearly in this entire war, two people who were kind of uniquely, seemingly indispensable to their organizations, nasrallah and sinwar, they have been eliminated. the reality is they both replaced leaders killed by israeli security forces.

if you look at what hamas, it's an ideology, a collection of operatives, a governing structure in gaza. you're not going to eliminate that. essentially the decapitation of hamas, the elimination of its leadership and the degradation obviously of its military capabilities is sufficient to pivot to a day after. another point thing here, chris, is that you hear that phrase, a day after from both vice president harris and president biden, there's still disability between the u.s. government and the israeli government on what that day after is, what kind of palestinian administration they're seeking to build up to replace hamas or whether or not -- what kind of responsibility or presence israeli continues to have in gaza, in parts of gaza, so there's a lot of work to be diplomatically to close that gap as well. but i think the reality is there's going to be some version of hamas and hezbollah on the

back end of this. the question is, what kind of threat do they pose, do they have governance control over gaza, if you can take control of those two pieces, dramatically minimize the threat and build up an alternative leadership in gaza, that, i think, from the american perspective had been what president biden has been working towards. whether prime minister netanyahu's objectives are more maximalist around an israeli presence in the long-term, that, i think, is where this conversation is ultimately going to move in the coming weeks and months. >> ambassador, we understand that jake sullivan has just briefed reporters who are on board air force one with the president who is traveling, as you know, i'm sure to berlin, germany, and he said there are other hamas actors who need to be brought to justice. you've been in those rooms. you've been in those conversations. what do you imagine the conversations are like now among the national security staff and the people closest to joe biden? >> you know, my guess is that

the discussion is what should the president be saying to prime minister netanyahu, how can we determine more? what's the definition of israeli success. the ability to declare an end to the war is really a function of being able to say, oh, we achieved the objectives we needed to achieve. well, you've destroyed the leadership of hamas in gaza. you have destroyed the military that hamas had in gaza. you have destroyed most of the military infrastructure in gaza. let's talk about what it would take to ensure hamas can reconstitute itself, and we can work for you and the egyptians to ensure there can't be smuggling. we can work with you about what comes next, precise because you yourself had said you don't want israel to reoccupy gaza. i think a lot of the conversations right now are probably focused very heavily on what's the kind of discussion we ought to be having with the prime minister, so we can actually come to some

understanding of what constitutes success. ben was kind of getting at that, i actually think that's an important conversation to have with prime minister netanyahu at this moment. i have one other interesting point. it's true that hamas will certainly try to reconstitute it. what's interesting today is there's no real hamas leadership in gaza. the leadership in hamas now is on the outside. that outside is much more susceptible to pressure. that adds, i think, the sense that something might well be possible sooner rather than later. a lot of it, again, depends on what are you going to do in terms of moving in definition of success. what are you going to see what can be done with hostages on the other. those might be more focused on how do they survive over time, and whether a deal could be of benefit to them. all of that should be a part of

the discussion right now that's going on, i think, among the present and the national security adviser, the secretary of state. >> an opportunity, but no less complexity. ambassador dennis ross, ben rhodes, thank you very much. after the break, we'll speak to about idf international spokesperson about what's next for the war in gaza. r the war i. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the

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we have much more on the breaking news, the idf, andthe mission is not complete despite the death of yahya sinwar. joining me now is major dorone spielman. thank you so much for joining us. first of all, understandably, and president biden said this in a statement, he compares the relief that the people of israel must feel to what the united states felt after osama bin laden was killed. having said that, can you give us any details about the operation that took down the master mind behind october 7th? >> absolutely. chris, thank you for having me, and i think what president biden said reaches to the heart of the israeli people. israel is a small country of 10 million people. yahya sinwar planned and perpetrated an attack that left 1,200 people, men, women and children dead.

they were butchered, 250 were brought back to gaza. 101 remain there. there's not an israeli family in this entire country that does not either have a family member that was affected or know of a close family member that was affected directly by this, and there is two emotions, one, as you mentioned, is a sense of relief, and joy that such a master mind of terror has reached justice. at the same time, we know that we still have 101 hostages left and are facing on several fronts. as to how this went down, the israeli idf, the israeli defense forces have been working with really sound intelligence over the last few weeks in terms of cornering hamas chief terrorists that are in gaza strip and the rafah area, eliminating areas of movement and restricting zones they can operate in. we knew yahya sinwar was in the

area, along with other commanders. we were hoping to force him to have him run from place to place like a fugitive. he was moving from tunnels to buildings back and forth. we were hoping he would make a mistake. he made it earlier today. he and two other terrorists opened fire on israeli troops. the israeli troops returned fire with the tank mortar shell. the mortal shell hit the building, killing yahya sinwar and two other terrorists. we had to scope out the area, making sure there was no other tunnels or terrorists, making sure it's not a trap. we identified a body in the rubble that resembled yahya sinwar. it was in a setting that was very difficult to reach. we managed to remove dna, send it for dna evidence and dental records and it was confirmed, that in fact, one of the world's greatest terror minds a sense of

evil for the world was in fact killed told. >> he was the most wanted terrorist. was it very clear or at least as clear as you can be from a visual identification from the idf who were there that this was, indeed, yahya sinwar? >> yes, the troops on the ground were surprised when they moved in. they identified three bodies and right away when they actually saw yahya sinwar, and they saw the resemblance that he had, they immediately alerted the intelligence authorities that they thought maybe it was him. again, we have to be very very careful. he has been out of sight for more than a year. remember the situation here. we haven't seen yahya sinwar in a year. he has been underground in tunnels. the only thing we have is a video that was taken from inside a tunnel looking at him walking by. his experience slightly changed. while the people of gaza have been suffering and moving 2 million from place to place, he has been underneath the ground,

and so it took time to match that picture with the dna evidence. but we held our breath, and we hope. as the president said, as kamala harris said, as leaders around the world are saying, this can usher in a new era, good for the israelis, the people of gaza and good for the world as a whole. >> there's no doubt the challenge that faced the idf in the 377 days since that attack. he was in tunnels that are difficult to penetrate, to navigate. he knows gaza, knew gaza, extraordinarily well. there was no digital footprint. we know he wasn't using any digital technology. when you say there was surprise, there was no expectation that, first of all, he would be there, and had you been able to in any way, even with no degree of certainty, but some suspicion that was indeed moving between tunnels and buildings. >> we did have reports that he

was on the run, that he was a fugitive. again, our actions were if we couldn't identify him specifically as you said because of the challenge, he's not using phones. he's certainly not using pagers or any electronic device. he's only moving with a small number of people, unless no one knows where he was, our strategy said, how can we use this in order to catch him. the only way to do it is to reduce an area of movement to a place that amongst terrorists, hopefully one of them is yahya sinwar, who will be forced to move so much from place to place, that he's bound to make a mistake. that's exactly what happened. they fired on israeli troops, alerting israeli troops, which allowed us to confirm fire and kill him. it was the last mistake, while we didn't know he was in the building, we knew he was in the area. we hope in every terror attack when you identify the bodies you, get to the hitler, so to speak of gaza, and today we received the news that he was there along with two other people that have been by his

side since the beginning. >> i have a couple of questions about the aftermath, we just heard from president biden via national security adviser jake sullivan. the two of them are on air force one in route to germany, and he said, this is the day after in gaza, again, very much familiar to those who listen to prime minister netanyahu. he said, where hamas is no longer in power or control, is that your understanding that anyone that is left in the leadership of hamas is now outside of gaza? look, the idf has managed to take out hamas's terror force, along with hassan nasrallah, and every one of these commanders or anyone who would replace them knows the idf is going to reach them. there's a shake down in the leadership. to say at this point that hamas is no longer functional, i hope

that's the case but certainly not something we can act on. we have to make sure, chris, that the hamas ideology is also taken care of, that anyone who might represent that ideology, who took place in the october 7th attack is also eliminated so that a new generation can rise. maybe this is the opportunity. of course i hope it is. although we still have two major goals regarding the day after. the first is to bring home our hostages, 101 in gaza, and the second is israel is facing a war on seven fronts. the master mind of evil that stands behind this war is iran. we have caused damage to iranian proxies. we have said that we will, in fact, return the gift that iran sent with us 181 ballistic missiles, that they sent toward us and there will be an israeli response. we have got to take care of the iranian threat, and those around the area will see the fate of

terrorists, and will reach justice and try to take a new path, a path that is good for israel, good for the other people of the middle east. >> major, i just spoke to the family of israeli american hostage, omer neutra who says sinwar's death makes this more dangerous for their son. it puts our family at greater risk. do you agree with that? how how does this change or impact in any way strategy? >> first of all, my heart goes out to that family and the other 101 hostage families. what they are living through is a roller coaster of hell. it's been going on now for over 370 days. the relatives are in dungeons, underneath the ground, being held by hamas, in horrific conditions, and it's something that none of us want to imagine, and they have had ups and downs, and hope, and hope crushed, and they know the idf is out to try to protect them. what i can tell you is this,

yahya sinwar was the master mind that took those people hostage. he ripped them from their phones, and trained people to rip them from their homes. he held them as a bargaining chip. he was completely against any type of deal that would allow them to go back home, and as we've heard from prime minister netanyahu, and the president, and the vice president, we hope with him out of the way that this will encourage a change within hamas. and this is the only action, the only answer we know, there's no way to predict what it is, because your enemy has a vote, that will enable our hostages to come home safely. there's a chance. we need to make do everything we can to make sure that happens. >> you have been very generous with your time. thank you so much for being with us today. >> thank you, chris, for having me, i appreciate it. gaza is tiny, it's trapped, and it's densely populated as big cities leaving few open spaces to operate. how hard was the operation that took down sinwar to pull off? one of the leading experts on

urban warfare in the world joins me to explain next. me to explait

well, some hostage families are expressing hope that the killing of hamas leader yahya sinwar could lead to a deal to bring their loved ones home. others are worried his death may have the opposite effect. nbc's erin mclaughlin just spoke with ria who's father-in-law is

being held in gaza. >> if sinwar is dead, we will not have 101 hostages back home. i think he was the holder to keep them alive, and after every big leader, there is a worse leader. >> joining me now is john spencer, west point chair of urban warfare studies at the modern war institute. thank you so much for joining us. i think you just heard the interview i did with the idf spokesperson, what he described was nothing short of stunning and dramatic, that apparently sin war, others who were with him opened fire on israeli soldiers. they responded including with a tank mortar shell. it hit the building, and then when they went in, there was no doubt, he said, or at least little doubt they were able to positively identify, even before sending out the, obviously, dna, and finger prints, that it certainly looked like it could

be sinwar. i wonder what you make of what he said, and the description he had of how this all went down in that densely populated urban setting what was a densely populated urban setting in gaza? >> absolutely, chris. it's a fascinating aspect. i was in khan younis this year. i was in central gaza. the density of the cities in gaza can't be miscounted. the sheer number of concrete steel reinforced buildings that soldiers are moving down these streets and not only every step they take, there could be a tunnel underneath them, that they could take fire from any of thousands of windows. so these soldiers, regular soldiers, mind you, not special forces, a tank unit, conducting an operation to find enemy caches, enemy locations get shot on and engages that target with

a tank round and gets the number one of this massive death cult and gives a chance for this war to come to an end, it's fascinating and the urban warfare, which we call combat in hell. having been in gaza, it's a unique type of hell. the israelis have moved as many civilians as humanly possible out of harm's way, and moving through, trying to systematically remove hamas's capabilities and forces from gaza. >> the other thing we talked about is the idea that they believe he had been on the move, right? we had heard for at least a year that he was hiding in those tunnels. we know the difficulty, the complexity of first of all, getting intel, right, and then trying to track someone down. what do you make of the fact that it sounds as if, at least according to the israelis, he mb moving from the tunnels to the fortified buildings you talked about back and forth.

what does that say to you? >> that he was scared, of course, and there's rumors there was also close to where the awful scene of where the six hostages that were brutally murdered to included hersh goldberg-polin, an american citizen, it shows the difficulty of finding and what they have been able to do. it took us ten years to find osama bin laden because he escaped into pakistan. the fact they were able to contain him and continue operations despite the context in which the war has unfolded and keep him even within gaza where at times you could enter a tunnel in northern gaza and come out in rafah. they found long, two mile tunnels going underneath the river beds that separate northern and southern gaza. a lot there on his inability, actually to stay hidden and having to be staying there, where he was hiding in areas where, you know, the international community said don't go to rafah. don't go there. the fact that he was hiding there, doing this, i mean, i

think it's -- and i listened to some of the prior commentaries. this is the biggest chance for peace because the actual butcher of gaza, yahya sinwar, is dead. so the hurdle to returning the hostages home, the hurdles to improving the situation for the palestinian people, one of the biggest hurdles, this man is now dead. >> john spencer, thank you very much. we do appreciate your expertise on this. we want to take a live look at matt miller who is briefing at the state department right now. he said that sin war has been the chief obstacle to getting the hostages released, and in fact in recent weeks has refused to negotiate. it's echoing essentially what we have heard from experts throughout these last couple of hours, which is that with sinwar dead, this is an opening. the question is how does this move forward? we're also learning, by the way, as we're continuing to listen to

matt miller that defense secretary lloyd austin spoke with the israeli defense minister galant about the death of hamas leader. nbc's courtney kube has the latest on that. i understand, again, we talk about high drama, that secretary austin is at nato in brussels, he gets passed a note that says sinwar is dead? >> that's right, and that underscores how quickly this was unfolding today. as you mentioned, secretary austin in brussels for a nato meeting, the nato defense ministerials meeting. according to a defense minister, he was sitting in a meeting when someone handed him a note that there were reports that sinwar could have been killed in an operation by the israeli defense forces. at that point, there still was not confirmation. that was earlier today before the israelis confirmed that they had dna evidence that they had gotten yahya sinwar. after the ministerial, secretary

austin spoke with his israeli counter part, yoav gallant. i should say they speak on a nearly daily basis. it's not surprising that they spoke, but at that point, the israelis did not have confirmation that sinwar was who was killed at that operation in gaza. so it wasn't even at that point that secretary austin was aware that sinwar had been killed, chris. >> courtney kube, thank you so much. it is always good to have you in situations like this. that is going to do it for us this hour. our breaking news coverage will continue with "katy tur reports" after this. after this thcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. we are following the momentous breaking news out of gaza. hamas leader, yahya sinwar is dead, killed in a gunfight in the southern city of rafah, according to israeli officials. if you thought the death of sinwar, the master mind of october 7th. the man who almost single handedly inflamed the middle east and threw israel and palestinians into a horrific war, would finally bring peace, his death, that is, is not the case. at least not yet. in a fiery speech of his own, benjamin netanyahu said the war continues, the mission is still unfinished. >> for those who are willing to lay down their arms