good to be with you. i'm katy tur. we are following the momentous breaking news out of gaza. hamas leader, yahya sinwar is dead, killed in a gunfight in the southern city of rafah, according to israeli officials. if you thought the death of sinwar, the master mind of october 7th. the man who almost single handedly inflamed the middle east and threw israel and palestinians into a horrific war, would finally bring peace, his death, that is, is not the case. at least not yet. in a fiery speech of his own, benjamin netanyahu said the war continues, the mission is still unfinished. >> for those who are willing to lay down their arms from hamas

and free the hostages, believe me, they will be saved. but those who do not, their days are numbered if they dare hurt any of the hostages. it is now bringing about the end of the war. >> in reaction to his words, some hostage families spoke to nbc news, and they said they want netanyahu to do more and to do it now. >> we're holding our breath. this is something that needed to happen, but it also puts our family members and our son at great risk, even greater risk than before right now in the chaos in gaza, and our expectation is that the american administration and israeli government do everything, be proactive right now, and act upon the release of the hostages immediately. >> seize the moment. come up with a plan. this is the time. >> families worried about retaliation for those who are still being held captive. in the year since october 7th,

the idf has largely reduced the gaza strip to rubble. hospitals are either destroyed or barely working. disease is spreading. hunger is a constant concern. and more than 40,000 people have been killed. 40,000. lots of women, lots of children. hamas and the effort to root out hamas once and for all, the israelis have lost considerable standing and goodwill around the world with more people out there calling for the elimination of an israeli state, doing it more publicly now, which according to public reporting on hamas and yahya sinwar was part of the plan. in a lengthy and thorough profile of sinwar, david remnick writes in the new yorker about conversations he had in an israeli prison with a dentist he became close to. when the dentist asked if the goals were worth the lives of

many people, israelis and palestinians, sinwar replied, we are ready to sacrifice, 20,000, 30,000, and 100,000. joining us now, hala gorani, in dubai, keir simmons, and at the pentagon, nbc news national security correspondent courtney kube. so, what is the reaction out of israel? >> the reaction we have heard from the families of hostages and you ran some sound of one of the families that really must be in a desperate situation today because probably with the death of yahya sinwar, there is now even more uncertainty as to the fate of those hostages. we're also hearing from palestinians as well. it was just such a surprising end to this man's life. it had been persistent reports,

katy, for over a year that he was deep in a tunnel, that he would human shield hostages around him. in the end, he was living aboveground in his last hours and days, and he was killed almost by accident. it appeared as though this was not an operation that led to sinwar based on intelligence but sort of a group of soldiers ran into him and realized it was him after they were able to identify the bodies. as for reaction, we heard there from the hostage families, we have teams inside gaza, as many of our viewers know, doing very important work there. they caught up with just ordinary palestinians, and asked them for their reaction to the death of sinwar. this is what one man told our crew. >> after sinwar's assassination, the war should end. there is no justification for the machinery of demolition, destruction, killing and death to go on. it's the end unless there are false justifications.

it would be a purely israeli agenda to crush the palestinian people. >> reporter: but as you mentioned, katy, the prime minister came out tonight and was very clear. no end to the war. the war will continue with full force. katy. >> some reaction reported from the "new york times" as well. mixed reaction, some saying that they were upset about the news regarding sinwar. others saying, quote, i wish he rots in hell. he is responsible for the destruction. a woman, a 42-year-old. thank you very much. keir, i'll go to you. the qataris have been in close negotiations with the israelis and hamas, including sin war. what are they saying tonight about this news? >> well, not very much publicly. and where i am, katy, in the gulf, the arab world, not many governments are saying very much. governments of course that have

been so outspoken in the past year, and i think that speaks volumes actually. i think what that tells you is that they are assessing the situation. they want to make their own assessment beyond what israelis have to say. they'll want to see what hamas has to say, and at the same time, also, i think they will be trying to assess what this means looking ahead. there has been a lot of diplomacy. there have been talks in recent weeks. the iranian president was in doha, in qatar in the past couple of weeks, met with hamas in qatar. the background is the expected strike on iran. will this shift things? will israel feel less need, less inclined to make the strikes count? that's not the message we seem to hear from prime minister netanyahu tonight. there won't be many tears in this part of the world, in the arab part of the world for

yahya sinwar. we're hearing from president biden in a statement, talking act my israeli friends, talking about reminiscence, and relief, compared to the relief americans felt after the killing of osama bin laden and trying to find a path forward. secretary blinken talking about the u.s. redoubling efforts to end the conflict. i think there will be cynicism in the middle east about what will happen because of course in the end, people like yahya sinwar grew up from the poverty in gaza, in khan younis, spent decades in an israeli jail and the story is repeated again and again. there will be those saying, and this goes back in many many years with israel, with the israeli assassination campaign. we have seen many times, there are those questioning whether killing leaders like it has an impact. of course it does in this way.

it's a victory for israel. it's a victory over the person who planned october 7th. it's a victory that, as hala was saying, came after many months when he seemed to be able to evade the israeli authorities. >> israel has been able to kill sinwar. they killed nasrallah, haniyeh. do you get a sense from the arab states that they are hoping for something in particular. are they hoping for a path forward to normalize relations? do they think that's possible after all of this? >> well, what they talk about the arab states, any of them, saudis, the emirates, what they

talk about is a two-state solution between the palestinians and the israelis. that's what they talk about. what they want is stabilization, this part of the world, they want to have a stable world so their economies can grow and thrive, so there is that perspective, and there are other countries like jordan who are just very worried about destabilization, like egypt, very worried about the impact of refugees, about the palestinians that are already in those countries, and then just going around to the map, if you like, that question of -- and it's still there, of whether we are traveling towards an all out conflict between israel and iran, and the domino effect that would put in america, and on the other hand, the threat that iran poses with this nuclear program. none of that has gone away with the killing, with the death of yahya sinwar. that's not to say it's not an important moment but it's also just, you know, i think it's helpful to just take a step, and just, you know, know that this

region has changed just because one person had lied. >> hala, the goal for netanyahu was to root out hamas. sinwar was the held of hamas. he was said to be the one who was staunchly against most of the peace negotiations, really wanted a lot more than israel was willing to give when you talk to experts in the region. they says two men made it almost impossible to come to an agreement for peace between the israelis and the palestinians. now that sinwar is gone, who are the israelis looking for? what are they hoping to do in gaza? what more is there to do according to them? >> well, if they're looking for someone to negotiate with, they don't have anybody right now. we don't know who is going to fill the vacuum at the top of hamas, which is a severely degraded fighting force. there are no more rockets flying

into israeli territory, for example, the head of the political wing, you mentioned at the top of your program, katy, ismail haniyeh was assassinated. yahya sinwar is now gone. there is no one to negotiate with. what is left, really, of this political strategic operational leadership in the group that could, you know, agree to terms to release hostages, for example? you know, what ends up happening when you degrade a militant group, a terrorist group that has a conventional veneer like hamas or hezbollah is that oftentimes it ends up becoming an insurgent force, and fighting ranks become insurgent ranks, it becomes a very difficult enemy to fight when you're a conventional army.

this is something that's happened to the idf and lebanon in the past. it's something that is not impossible to imagine will happen to them in gaza in the future, if it's not already happening in some small pockets of that territory. and you mentioned at the top of your show, and it's important not to forget, that this is all happening against the backdrop of a humanitarian disaster in that small strip of land. what will happen to the people, the young boys who will then grow up into teenagers and men. you know, this cycle is not broken as keir so rightly said with the death of one man, not to take away from the significance of this event. but this is not solving a long-term problem. it's going to be interesting to see in the coming weeks or months if we're anywhere closer to an end to the fighting. the prime minister was clear. that's not on the agenda for him. >> there have been a lot of questions about the day after, questions that the israelis have not answered. courtney, let me ask you about the pentagon. i know they're having a briefing

right now. what did the pentagon know about this if they knew anything? >> reporter: we don't have any indication the u.s. knew about this beforehand. what we have learned, since the israelis confirmed they have dna evidence that this was yahya sinwar, the u.s. has played this role for the last year in helping the israelis to track and locate terrorist leaders inside gaza like sinwar, and in fact, we have heard from senior biden administration officials, saying there were u.s. special operators and intelligence officials on the ground in israel, not in gaza, but in israel who were helping with this effort. and even name checked. they even said specifically they were helping to find sinwar, but all of that being said, the officials who we have been speaking with seemed to be caught off guard by this announcement and by this -- when it first came out that there was the possibility that sinwar had been killed in this mission

yesterday. u.s. officials were caught off guard. in fact, just to give you a sense of it, secretary of defense lloyd austin who's in brussels was sitting in the nato meeting, and someone handed him a note saying, hey, there are reports that sinwar may have been killed. we know from the israelis as well as from u.s. officials who were briefed by israelis that this was a mission or an operation that occurred yesterday, and they were not targeting sinwar in it. and it wasn't even really until today that they started get definitive proof, he was who they expected to be. katy, all of that to say, there does not seem to be any role that the u.s. played here beyond the continuing intelligence sharing and partnering on more of an advisory role that's been happening, frankly, since october 7th. >> does the u.s. posture or the pentagon posture change toward israel now that sinwar is dead.

>> we have a major milestone since october 7th, whether it's the killing of a leader, or something else that happens there, we asked the same question. i'm not getting any indication that anything is going to change. of course everyone is waiting to see what happens over the next several weeks to see if the u.s. can still certify that israel is not denying humanitarian aid or intentionally withholding humanitarian aid to get into gaza. that's something that could have a practical, a very real impact on the relationship in the way of the u.s. potentially cutting off some weapons to israeli, but at this point, we're not hearing that. just to foot stomp that, katy, the u.s. is literally in the final case of sending in this air defense system called the f.a.d. a missile defense system. it should be in place and operational in israel in a matter of days, katy. >> courtney kube, keir simmons, and hala gorani, thank you, guys, very much. still ahead, what the

killing of the most wanted man in gaza means for israel's war, and the wider conflict in the middle east, ayman mohyeldin joins me with his reporting after the break. we are back in 90 seconds. in 90. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast.

our right to reproductive health care is being stolen from us. i can't believe this is the world we live in, where we're losing the freedom to control our own bodies. we need your support now more than ever. go online, call, or scan this code, with your $19 monthly gift. and we'll send you this "care. no matter what" t-shirt. it is your right to have safe health care. that's it. go online, call, or scan right now. joining us now, msnbc host, ayman mohyeldin. it's good to have you. what does it mean for sinwar to no longer be alive? what does it mean for the israelis to have killed him? does this change the movement?

does this change things for this war is this. >> you know, there's two ways to look at it, the short-term and the long-term impact. in the short term, undoubtedly it's going to change the battlefield dynamics. yahya sinwar was one of these few enigmatic leaders in hamas who has a tactical as well as a political side to him. he was the chief architect, if you will, of the negotiations that were taking place between israel and the qataris and the egyptians and the americans about the release of the hostages. the dynamic change is a lot. not only was he overseeing some of the operations of the militant group and the fighters there. he himself on the battlefield, that has been eliminated. that's going to disrupt whatever semblance of the organization remains inside the gaza strip. does it change the organization fundamentally? what we have seen in the past, is it has not.

there have been other senior leaders of hamas, spiritual leaders, political leaders that have been killed, and the organization manages to elect new leaders, generate new leadership that tends to be more extreme, more hard line, more militant than the generation before. it's too early to see what hamas. they have not made any comments about the killing of sinwar earlier today. we'll see what they do in the coming days and weeks. >> can you give insight on the qatari side of things. they have been the mediator between the israelis and hamas. do they change their negotiating position? do they try to put more pressure on israel, more pressure on the united states to put pressure on israel. how do they factor into this? >> they have always tried to change the position of being intermediaries. certainly the israelis have questioned whether motivations have been intermediaries. the israelis have -- they have

proven to be reliable in fields including afghanistan and elsewhere for the americans but when it comes to this issue they have had the trust of hamas's leadership which as you and our viewers know has been mostly in doha for the past several years. as a result of that, they have had some leverage over hamas, but at the same time, they have also had working relations with the israelis. a lot of money that was going into hamas through gaza was going with the blessing of the israeli government and the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. how this changes right now is really dependent on the organization. whether the organization chooses a more moderate leader or somehow changes its position on some of the negotiations that have taken place over the last several months. one of the key corner stone demands of hamas has been that any release of hostages has been to be on the end of the war from insides gaza strip or outside. that has been a categorical no

from israel. they said they were not going to do that before the killing of sinwar. it's going to be interesting to say the least whether or not either side generates flexibility. >> what about the jordanians, the minister reacting to benjamin netanyahu, here at the united nations, saying there was a ring of fire around israel, and jordanian foreign minister said we can guarantee israel's safety, the gulf states, the states surrounding israel, if they come to a cease fire. how were the jordanians factoring into this, and might they now play a larger role given what the foreign minister said just a few days ago? >> well, you know, one of the issues, katy, and you know this better than others in the region. so much of this is about narrative. so for many years, the israeli narrative has been the reason why we do x, y and z is because we are surrounded by a sea of hostile nations that want to destroy us. they have pointed to groups like

hamas, and hezbollah and iran as examples of forces that want to destroy israel. what the jordanian foreign minister was saying with that statement is that the truth is these groups, and certainly now after the killing of yahya sin war, as well as nasrallah, the countries of the mold earn world, bahrain, kuwait, saudi arabia potentially, morocco, as well, have all come to the realization that israel is there. they're going to have peace treaties with israel. israel is no longer surround bid a sea of hostile states that want to destroy it. the excuse of justification israel has undertaken why he treats the palestinians, why he maintains the occupation is no longer as strong as it was. >> i'm wondering, can those states guarantee safety if you have nonstate actors that have

been going after israel, hezbollah, iran, obviously a state actor, but basically trying to wage their war through proxyings. can the surrounding states guarantee safety with the proxies that are there to continue the fight? >> yes and no. the jordanians shot down missiles heading toward israel, and they said iran was violating jordanian airspace. they did participate in what was widely seen as act of defense on behalf of israel, and certainly with the help of the americans and others in the region. but the underlying issue that jordanians point to is the biggest threat to israel's security is not what's happening externally but the fact that the israelis until this day maintain an occupation, and they point to october 7th as an example, the reason hamas continues to exist, the reason there's this resentment is because decades of occupation have resulted in this festering sense of groups like hamas, and so shut of that, so

long as you don't address the core issue, nothing on the periphery is going to be resolved. including countries like iran, for them to exploit the palestinian issue for their own self-issue, not necessarily caring about the pause per se. >> it could be an inflection point for change. ayman mohyeldin, thank you so much for joining ugs. and joining us now, israeli government spokesperson in the office of the prime minister david menser, what does the death of yahya sinwar mean for the war in gaza? >> thank you for having me join you. i'll tell you what it means immediately. i heard the news as the news came on, a loud uproar came from across the street. that's a family which had lost a soldier fighting this war against this evil terrorist regime. so the first essence that we have is of course justice.

this was an evil killer that was given multiple ways out to avoid the destruction of his own people, not having induced killing of 1,200 of my people. he never took that route, and he paid the price. as others have paid the price, like nasrallah, like other terrorists. the prime minister has made crystal clear this event that this will be the end of terrorists that seek to threaten israel, whether close to us, even a little bit more further afield. we will defend ourselves while always having one hand out to peace. we will defend ourselves. this war will be over when we get 101 hostages home safely. unfortunately, many of them are dead, but many are still alive. >> is this going to be a moment for peace? benjamin netanyahu, a moment ago, said the war continues. is this going to change things?

or will israel continue the bombardment of gaza? >> the prime minister made clear just this evening that this is the beginning of the end because 101 of our hostages still remain in gaza. we will continue to fight until we bring them all home. the prime minister made a remarkable offer this evening. he said to those hamas terrorists holding our hostages, he says, set the hostages free, and you can leave the territory with your life. >> without sinwar, who do the israelis negotiate with to get the hostages back? >> of course for over a year now, we have been trying to negotiate with sinwar, and it hasn't worked, except for a brief moment in november when we managed to bring our hostages home. this is a genocide dal terrorist organization that doesn't abide

to the same norms as other societies. they're genocidal, they wish to destroy us. one thing you don't get in the states, when they say they wish to wipe the country off the face of the earth, we believe them. iran are backing them. that's why we need to fight for our survival. but we are making tremendous progress. one by one. we are taking down these terrorists. >> i understand that. and you've taken down haniyeh, nasrallah, now sinwar. who do you negotiate with now? you said you have one hand toward peace, who do you negotiate with to get the peace? who can the israelis talk to to get the hostages back? certainly the hostage families are calling for an immediate end to this so they can get their loved ones home. they're very worried about retaliation in the face of the killing of sinwar. >> the hostage are first and

foremost. the prime minister made clear this evening that they are our highest priority. he used the word highest priority. the prime minister made an unprecedented offer. he said set them free, and you can leave with your life. that is an unprecedented offer. this is the first day of the day after hamas. there will come a time when gaza can be led by gazans that do not wish destruction of israel. that is what we're asking for. we're looking for partners in the outside world. some of them have come forward, i'm not going to name them this evening, but there are of course nations, moderate arab nations in our region that wish to support the future of the gaza. >> that's very interesting what you're talking about. we heard the other week the jordanian foreign minister say that the arab nations

surrounding israel can guarantee israel's security. are you working with the jordanians, with the egyptians, the qataris, with the kuwaitis to find a way to scaffold what's left of gaza so that there can be a two-state solution, there can be peace, that gaza can be run by gazans? >> the prime minister has made clear that gaza should be run by gazans. it shouldn't be run by israel. in the short-term, it may have to be. but in the longer term, we don't want to run gaza. that's for gazans to run their own life. gazans that wish to live with us in peace, not gazans that wish to destroy us. nasrallah and the other terrorists like sinwar sought to portray themselves as lions, as guardians of the palestinian future. they brought nothing but destruction to their own people. this was a war designed by

sinwar himself to bring destruction to his own people. there can be a better future for gazans and israels. the bare minimum must be that our nation state can no longer be under threat from the terrorist organizations that wish to destroy us. it would be wrong, the key principle. >> i began the show by noting what sinwar had said in an israeli prison to a dentist. that he was willing to sacrifice ten, 20. 100,000 people of his cause of eradicating israel. you just mentioned a moment ago that israeli might need to be in gaza to run gaza for the short term. can you elaborate on that? >> the prime minister over the last year has set out its mission for the day after hamas. we're getting closer to that day. but ultimately, as i say, it will be run by gazans that do not wish us harm, that wish to provide a better future for our

own people. gaza has been flooded by international money, well meaning money. that money has been sunk into terrorism, building a terror network, a tunnel network, bigger than the london underground, the new york subway, instead of building up gaza into schools and hospitals and roads, and better future for their children. there is a tremendous amount of brainwashing, which has happened in gaza, to gazans. it will take a while to take forward that deradicalization. >> can israel do that, or other arab states in charge of that? you think israel can, as you said, deradicalize, do you have the goodwill to deradicalize people in gaza who have suffered bombardment right now, and i'm not laying blame at anyone's feet, but who have suffered bombardment for a year. first things first, let's make clear, it was sinwar that started this war. there was a cease fire on october 6th.

he started this disastrous war. his own people, let alone my people. but ultimately, look, if it's israel that's taking forward this deradicalization point, it will be dead on arrival. it must be gazans themselves, that seek a better future for ordinary, not through battle, through tunnel under us, sending us rockets, you know, we don't want to run gazans lives. the prime minister has made that crystal clear. couldn't have been any clearer. we are in discussions with other other arab leaders in our neighborhood to provide a better future for ordinary gazans. the bare minimum must be two things. it's not hamas or anyone connected to hamas, and also that they do not wish to destroy our country. this cannot be a better future for gaza cannot be a stopgap on the way to the next attempted

invasion of israel. >> what can you tell me about what you currently know about the remaining hostages? do you know how many who might still be alive? do you know where they might be? do you know why they might not have been around yahya sinwar? there was talk he was surrounding himself with hostages to keep himself safe. >> katy, sinwar was running away like the filthy terrorist he is. he was saving his own skin. and of course all of us need to remember that it's hamas which stripped these hostages, and it's still holding them. we know at least 36 of them are no longer alive. are killed by hamas. some taken as dead bodies on october 7th. some of them unra employees who took those dead bodies on october 7th. but we know that the others are alive. some of them we think are close by him in rafah, in other parts

of gaza as well. let's not forget that the whole world, as the prime minister made clear this evening, said we should not go into rafah. all eyes on rafah, you know, we went into rafah because that's where the leadership of hamas was and we are taking them a i part one by one, but the prime minister said this evening, it is our highest priority. our highest priority to get our people home. it's an open sword in israeli society. both of us here, and i think all well meaning people around the world feel the pain of those families. i myself pass them every day and see the pain in their eyes. it's a human rights outrage that one year on, these people are still being held by hamas. the prime minister couldn't have been any clearer. he made an offer. i have never heard the prime minister make this offer before, set the hostages free and you'll escape with your lives.

if anyone from hamas are watching this program right now in the terror dungeons, inside gaza, holding out hostages, you have an opportunity, endorsed by the prime minister, set our people free, and you will escape with your life. >> does this change plans for the retaliatory strikes against iran? >> i'll tell you, katy, i don't like that word retaliatory. i prefer the word defense. two weeks ago we were hit by 181 ballistic missiles. no other country has ever faced a ballistic barrage from any country. it's iran, iran says to us openly, they wish to destroy our country. iran backed sinwar, iran trained sinwar, the tactics iran have used over the last year are iranian tactics. we know that this is behind all of this, and i'll be straight

with you, katy, israel knows precisely, precisely how to defend itself against iran. we do not seek war with iran. our minister of strategic affairs has made that clear. the iranian people themselves are very much victims of the iranian regime. but the regime itself seeks to destroy this country. we will not let that happen, and we know precisely, precisely how to defend ourselves. >> israeli government spokesperson in the office of the prime minister, david mencer, thank you very much for joining us on this day. >> good to be with you. and coming up, who was yahya sinwar, a deep dive into the history of the man at the center of hamas for decades. of hamas for decades

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who was yahya sinwar before he launched october 7 and the war that destroyed gaza and killed over 40,000 people who spent decades in an israeli prison for the murder of palestinians, people hamas accused of conspireing with israel or committing offenses like homosexuality, marital infidelity of possession of pornography. new yorker editor, david remnick destroyed the lore around the man known as the butcher of khan younis, including decapitations

and torture, burying people alive or dripping boiling oil on their heads, a man bent on the elimination of israel, he spent years in prison learning hebrew and studying israeli culture in order to fully understand his enemy before waging an existential war. joining us now, former special assistant to president obama and msnbc foreign affairs analyst, ambassador dennis ross, the point man on the peace process in the middle east in the george h.w. bush and bill clinton administrations and also with us former deputy assistant secretary of state and president of the washington strategy group, joel rubin. ambassador, i'm going to begin with you. give me a little bit more about who sinwar was and how much of this gruesome lore as i described it, as a new yorker wrote about it, can we actually verify to be true? >> we know a lot of it is true

because he was in israeli jails for 22 years. many who knew him reported a bt what he was like there. we have the account of an israeli dentist who actually helped save his life because he noticed he had a problem with his jaw, and he noticed there was a growth. and so there were exchanges that he had over the years with him. this dentist recommended sinwar not be released because he saw in him someone who was quite charismatic as a leader but also extremely dogmatic, unmovable, idealogically committed to the destruction of israel and someone who viewed his own public, and you were describing this in terms of how he dealt with palestinians, he considered to be collaborators. he was quite determined to treat his own public if they were all prepared to be martyrs, of course, he never asked if they were prepared to be martyrs.

>> he was somebody who, as you said, was charismatic. when he was released, how was he able to organize, ambassador? and what knowledge did he gain from the israeli prison system about how to wage a war that would be as effective as this one has been. because tormenting, taunting of israelis as what happened on october 7th? >> two really different questions. most important to address. i think on the one hand, he was very close to someone called mohammed daif. he was almost legendary in the eyes of palestinians, especially of hamas, because he escaped so many israeli attempts to assassinate him. he was a guru to sinwar. he was ruthless. and sinwar took many of his cues

from him. together they really emerged as a kind of twin leadership. the israelis were able to get mohammed daif about two months ago, but emerged because he came out of the, in a sense, under the wing of daif, and he had enormous control over the military wing of hamas, and he really treated him as a kind of possible successor to him. he saw him as someone who he was nurturing to play this role, and who was as rigid and dogmatic to try to destroy israel as he was. what did he learn from the prisons? i think that he learned he brew, as you said, he took courses from the open university and studied as much as he could about israel. he also was a consumer of the israeli media. one of the factors that influenced him, and i think the

timing of the october 7th, 2023, was not only that there was the possibility, seemingly increasing possibility of a saudi normalization deal with israel, which he saw as quite threatening, but in addition, he was paying attention to what were the weekly demonstrations over the judicial reform issue, and he saw that as a sign of weakening within israel. he saw it as potentially a moment that also he could exploit. he prided himself on understanding the israelis very well. at one point he gave an interview where he was describing to an italian journalist, his understanding of israel and how he had become quite adept at understanding what was going on in israel. >> you mentioned understanding the moment that israel was in before october 7th, the judicial reforms as netanyahu called them and the protests. there was an interview he did

with israeli television while he was still in prison around 2004, and he talked to the correspondent on camera and said that he was hopeful for a true second last generation. off camera, here's what the interviewer said he told him. he said that he was confident israel could not count on its strength forever. it was innately fragile, that fissures between the country's religious and secular populations would deepen and said after 20 years, you will become weak and i will attack you. it was almost 20 years. 19 years, when october 7th happened if this interview happened in 2004 as i'm leading here. as the ambassador was saying, joel, understood the israeli population. did he also understand what it would look like on the international stage, luring israel into gaza? >> yeah, well, katy, you know, i think what's fascinating about what you just read, and i'll read this into the question by

the international stage is he clearly did not understand israel, what he was calculating is that after attacking on october 7th that the divided politics, the fighting in israeli politics about the future of the country would somehow lead to a crash in israeli society but the opposite occurred and the country unified and it responded militarily to this diabolical attack last october, and i think this weaves in quite importantly to the international dimension because what he also is counting on is global pressure to essentially isolate israel and tell it to stop in a way where it would not be able to do what it has done, which is devastate and decimate hamas, ultimately killing him. these are two strategic miscalculations of the highest order. he did not understand the strategic environment as he

was -- as led him to believe. and the result is that gaza is devastated. thousands of palestinians are being killed. he is dead as well. and there's still israeli hostages trapped underground in gaza. there's no peace. he did not aim for peace with this invasion of israel. he aimed for war, and his entire strategic mindset about what happened was proven wrong. >> joel rubin, ambassador ross, thank you very much, gentlemen, i appreciate it. still ahead, what we know about israel, about how israel was able to kill yahya sinwar. don't go anywhere. war. don't go anywhere. easy guys. easy. [children playing] hey guys, come on! time to eat. time to eat. ♪♪ i don't want this. i want corndogs! corndogs! ♪♪ corndogs! corndogs! corndogs! ♪♪

i need another corndog!

involved in the operation and did not provide any specific intelligence that led idf soldiers to yahya sinwar. officials believe the killing of hamas leader may been a lucky break. one senior israeli official told nbc news that syrian was killed during a heavy gun battle in gaza, but said the operation had not been aimed at killing sinwar. joining us now helene cooper and retired general barry mccaffrey. the killing of sinwar shouldn't change the u.s. posture towards aiding israel in this war in gaza? >> probably not. look, this is a pivotal moment. there is no question. sinwar was an evil genius behind

the 7 october attack. they maintained operational security. they had a brilliant plan. they came by air, land and sea. its purpose was not to strike out and up a blow against israel, but to horrify israel. it was demented. it wasn't units that got out of control. it was planned from the start by this man who is now dead. so to some extent the sense of justice and retribution of the israeli people, particularly those with false, 250 hostages went into gaza is important. but now israel is faced with a new dilemma. they have shattered the chain of command of hamas. killed probably half the 30,000 fighters. they have devastated the civilian population and infrastructure. what next? i don't think either hamas nor

israel have the faintest chance of solving this dilemma. it's got to come from outside. it's got to be a pan-air st. louis, jordan, egypt, saudi arabia and iran who must be persuaded what they are dealing with now is leading us to the edge of a major regional war which might bring the united states into it. >> we don't have diplomatic relations with iran. how does iran come to the table? what is iran stand to go gain by coming to the table? >> right now iran's in a terrible situation economically, politically, they are isolated except for the chinese and the russian and the north koreans. their proxies have been devastated, hezbollah and hamas, and to some extent terror groups in iraq and syria. houthis are on the ropes. you noticed yesterday we struck the houthi targets with b-2

bombers. iran is in a weakened position waiting for a major israeli counterattack in retribution for the two assaults on israel. i think iran may well entertain a view that they have got to back off these insane attempts to eliminate israel and find some way of living both with israel and with the major powers suni islam major powers. >> have you detected notes of concern from pentagon officials about what this war in gaza between israel and the palestinians, israel and hamas is doing to american readiness? >> oh, well, yes. that has been an ongoing issue with the pentagon ever since russia invaded in ukraine, in fact. as you know, katy, we have set

sent a lot of weaponry over to ukraine. we sent them a lot of ammunition. we have been worried about our own stocks. and then last october 7 you had hamas launching this attack on israel, and the u.s. has responded by sending an enormous amount of both weaponry, warships, fighter jets, and we've had some smaller though troop deployments. so readiness is sort of the pentagon moniker for the ability of the u.s. military to fight itself its own battles. they call it ready to fight tonight. that's the motto of the u.s. troops in south korea, for instance. and there is a lot of worry at the pentagon that as we're at sort of exporting all of this hardware to the middle east and to protect israel and to sort of protect the american troops in the mideast our iowa are one

place and we've got asia to worry about on the other hand. and so that's sort of what you see this concern that's kind of rising at the pentagon about. the whole sinwar thing just throws everything, i think, in the air now when you start talking about the american posture there, and i think we are still waiting to see how this plays out. we don't know at this point whether hamas is clearly on the back foot as is hezbollah, but we don't know yet whether you will see other groups sort of double down and if the u.s. posture, how the u.s. posture in the middle east, the military posture -- >> well, what is the concern about the posture towards israel in the middle east right now? you talk about sinwar changing it. what exactly does it change? >> well, we don't know. i don't think we know. >> what is the variable, i guess? >> one side of the -- people are

hoping very much that this could lead to a cease-fire, you know, we will finally get the sort of cease-fire negotiation kickstarted and see the hostages come back and, you know, netanyahu now has the opportunity to be able to say to the israeli people look at what i have done, i got sinwar. i have now successfully -- almost like us getting osama bin laden. i got the guy behind the october 7th attacks. he could declare victory and go home. but we have been expecting benjamin netanyahu to go home -- for many months now and he has not down that. so we don't know. it's a little early to say. i think some people hope this could lead to perhaps a cease-fire and i think there is good reason to hope that, but who knows is the point because of the same way that yahya sinwar was sort of forged in battle, born in gaza, he was forged under the occupation, there is something that charles

q. brown, the chairman of the joint chief of staff often says, which is that for every hamas militant that israel is killing, they may be making five more. so i think it's one of those times where we have to wait and see, i think. >> helene cooper, said well. general mccaffrey, thank you guys. joining us now independent journalist, based in israel, we'd like to go to you to end our shows on these big days. today is a pig day. i hope you can bring us inside of the israeli psyche. >> well, israelis are following this very closely as you could imagine. there are two sides. kind of of a jubilation and feeling one year after this war was started by yahya sinwar, israel got to him. but at the same time, there is a thread of terror from the families of hostages still held in gaza and many thousands of supporters that hamas is going

to use this moment to take hostages who are still alive out and execute them, as we know happened at the end of august. >> so i didn't get a straight answer from what's going to happen next from the israeli spokesman and the prime minister's office. what do israelis want to happen next? >> israelis want direction. i think that israelis want the war to come to an en, but they want a sense of direction, of strategy, an endpoint, and even tonight we are already seeing the finance minister is one of the extremist members of benjamin netanyahu literally squabbling on twitter with the prime minister five minutes after the prime minister said he spoke with president biden, they are going to discuss the opportunity now to release hostages. the finance minister comes out and says, forget about it. i'm quoting him. so the israeli political scene may again impose itself on what appear to be, you know,

international logic. >> without sinwar, who is left to negotiate with? and i guess without sinwar, who can the israelis point to as the problem on the other side? >> that's a very good question. so nobody knows who will be appointed to succeed sinwar. there is talk among israeli observers of hamas that it could be mohammed sinwar, known to be kind of a deputy of his. it could be, you know, still surviving members of hamas leadership in qatar. and if that is what ends up happening and gazan fighters are pushed a little bit aside as a result of this assassination, then we might see some kind of softening of hamas position because they want to safeguard their future in doha, in qatar, and they have to follow some of the recommendations. >> an hour goes by so fast. i have so many more questions. thank you very much