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some of those people went down to the capitol. i said peacefully and

patriotically, nothing done wrong at all. action was taken, strong action. ashley babbitt was killed. no one was killed. [ laughter ] >> yes. this, this is the appropriate reaction to when trump speaks. i have never felt more seen. i can't believe i had to watch univision to feel like i had representation on tv. feels good. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire and katty kay are back with us this hour. kamala harris and donald trump both head back to battleground michigan today one day after a longstanding new york city tradition that offers candidates the chance to trade lighthearted barbs. peter alexander has the latest.

>> reporter: former president trump center stage at the al smith charity dinner attacking kamala harris. >> my opponent feels like she does not have to be there, which is deeply disrespectful. we have someone in the white house who can barely talk, barely put together two coherent sentences. but enough about kamala harris. >> reporter: trump also joking about the two assassination attempts against him. >> i just don't see the point of taking shots at myself, when other people have been shooting at me for a hell of a long time. >> reporter: harris in a prerecorded video alongside former snl star molly shannon. >> is there anything you think that maybe i shouldn't bring up tonight? >> well, don't lie. thy shall not bear false witness to their neighbor.

>> reporter: attacking vice president harris over policy. and ending by thanking god for saving his life. >> i can tell you so with god's help i know there is nothing that cannot be achieved. >> reporter: earlier the vice president campaigning in wisconsin responding to a pair of anti-abortion rights protesters. >> oh, you guys are at the wrong rally. i think you meant to go to the smaller one down the street. >> reporter: blasting trump over reproductive rights and for making this claim. >> i'm the father of ivf. >> what does that even mean? [ laughter ] >> i think he has no idea what he's talking about. when it comes to the health care of women in america. >> reporter: harris also seizing on trump's recent comments about january 6th. >> that was a day of love. >> the american people are exhausted with his gaslighting. >> all right.

also just want to point out that donald trump just said on "fox & friends" that some of his friends at fox news helped him write the jokes and that he didn't think some of them were funny. we'll get more to the fox news dynamic in just a moment. let's talk about the day of love. joining us now, chris matthews and jasmine wright. she extensively covered harris' 2020 presidential campaign. great to have you both. chris, i want to talk about the gaslighting comment that kamala harris made and specifically she was referring to one of donald trump's many very extreme, very dangerous comments that are either lies or frightening threats. he called january 6th a day of

love. i know that his friends at fox news that he was talking to to make jokes actually think january 6th is a joke. they actually call it the january 6th play now. don't play that card. it wasn't an insurrection. so there's an effort here to change the truth that the american people saw in front of their eyes. your thoughts? >> well, here we are with an election coming up now, the 2024 election. that was the 2020 election. they went to the capitol, that crowd, that mob went there to stop a count, to stop the counting of the election of 2020. that's what they were there for. not to protest, not to make noise. they were trying to stop the vote. they were trying to stop the vice president from certifying it. that's what they were doing. it was anti-democratic. it's not the storming of the bastille. it's the storming of oh our

democracy. they were trying to take down our democracy. god only knows what they would have done had the metropolitan police not shown up in time to get them out of there. what would they have done to public officials, what they have done to police. this was an awful attack on american democracy. there's this guy donald trump who was president at the time laughing at it. by the way, this should not be a comedy central opportunity for a gag. it's not a gag. it was gaslighting. it was telling the american people that they did not see what they saw. it's about telling someone she didn't see the gaslight in the ceiling. she didn't see it. yes, she did. this is about telling us we did not see what we saw. they're lying to us again. trump lied on election night when he didn't concede the election. all of our presidents have accepted defeat. hillary clinton accepted her defeat. i'm sorry, you're wrong about that, the people that say that.

she accepted the count. the count is what matters. this is going to be a democracy or not going to be a democracy. if trump wins, i'm not sure, because he says the vote doesn't count. what kind of a country -- are we a democracy and proud of it or not? i don't understand people voting for trump in the light of january 6th. i do not understand letting him laugh at our democracy and to try to bring it down >> clearly millions of americans will be voting for donald trump. from the harris side, do you think that talking about january 6th, playing images, talking about the 2020 election helps persuade some perhaps moderate republicans who might not like trump's character, but are thinking which way to vote in this campaign, or is that not something you're hearing voters are particularly focused on? >> yeah. i think that voters are not putting january 6th as their biggest concern when they answer

all of these polls. certainly when i talk to voters in campaigns across the country -- i was recently in arizona for four days -- what they consistently talked about was the economy and inflation. the harris campaign is trying to broaden out that base. yes, january 6th is popular with the base but it's also appealing to nikki haley voters that are spread out across the country that voted for haley even though it was clear she was no longer going to be in the race, but as a kind of rebuke to donald trump. arizona, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin have a lot of influential voters that the harris campaign is trying to target and say, hey, you may not have voted for a democrat today, but these are the reasons you cannot vote for donald trump, really trying to at least make sure they are not getting to

thele pos to vote for trump. if someone, as i have, have watched the harris campaign day in and day out, they're shifting their argument from the freedom argument that we heard when she first replaced biden to the democracy argument, calling trump unstable, saying he is a threat to democracy. i think they're going to hit that narrative harder as we get closer to november 5th. >> there does seem to be a shift from joy to fear. chris matthews, let's talk about the al smith dinner. it's held every year in new york city. every four years they usually draw both presidential candidates. it's a night for catholic charity. it's a light night of self-deprecating humor. trump went. he was nasty in his comments and frankly not funny. people told me in the days ahead of time they didn't want to see her on stage on a podium sharing laughs with someone she has

deemed a threat to democracy, but she did end up sending a video anyway. let's get your take on that. should she have gone in terms of trying to make a play for the catholic vote? >> it's a largely republican audience. it's catholic, but it's largely a business audience. mike bloomberg was there. you didn't see a smile on his face or on chuck schumer's face the night. it's a fun dinner. i've been at that dais many times. jack kennedy was great at those events. it's a chance to show your bigness, how you can really be a pretty good person. i remember mitt romney talking about obama and his family, what a great family he had. it's an opportunity to show good humor, positive things about your country.

it could be a good night. i don't know whether she should have gone or not. it would have taken a lot of heat to go there and let the republicans act like it was normal, having donald trump, who tried to stop the last election and is trying to stop this one meaning anything. if you don't think elections matter, if you don't think democracy matters, why are you voting? what's your vote all about? why are you voting personally? why does it matter to you to vote? it is the american system. stop laughing about it. stop the comedy central nonsense. stop yucking about it. it's not funny. those people in there that killed those cops. i worked a couple of feet from the speaker's lobby. they were trying to break their way in there. they were trying to destroy democracy. don't forget it. remember it. this is a big day in american history, the attack on our democracy. if your vote matters to you, it should matter to everybody.

>> i agree with you 100%, chris matthews, and i agree with your intensity. this is not a time for jokes, and this is not a time to dance around topics, because this is coming at all of us, republicans too. your freedoms are at risk too. don't know what you're doing supporting this man right now with what he has said. but there are efforts to sidestep, dance around things that he's saying that are clear fascism. let's start with this. i mentioned donald trump being on "fox & friends." here's, again, his connection with fox news, which had to pay $787 million for lying, helping him out. here's what he said about the jokes, i guess, they gave him. take a listen. >> your material was real funny.

who wrote it? >> well, i've had a lot of people help me, a couple of people from fox. i shouldn't say that, but they wrote some jokes. for the most part, i didn't like any of them. [ laughter ] >> so in his little safe space there at fox, he's surrounded by his friends and pretty much is allowed to do whatever he wants even if it's defame somebody, maybe malign somebody, maybe put somebody in danger, which i want to talk about not just donald trump's threats, but the media entities like fox news that bend to his will. that fox news interview with kamala harris, it revealed so much, and now there's more that that interview, that incredible moment in that interview has revealed in the follow-up. so i want to spell it out for you, because this is exactly

what they do. kamala harris showed righteous anger after bret baier lied to his viewers by showing a clip that hid donald trump's most dangerous comments on the campaign trail. i'm calling it a lie now, because this wasn't a live interview and he wasn't caught off guard. there's no excuse. 24 hours after fox news aired that clip, their choice was not to apologize to the viewers right away, but to show her reaction. just the voiceover. not her voice, but this. they show it out of context and continue over this video to

berate, mischaracterize and diminish her as an angry black woman. the american people were misled about one of the most important issues of this campaign, that there is a former president who wants to be president again threatening to use the military and the national guard against his political opponents. these acts that he's talking about are not only unconstitutional, this is called fascism. bret baier chose to cover it up and then didn't clean it up for 24 hours. as i said earlier, in tv news, hosts and producers know immediately when a clip is wrong. kamala harris knew the clip is wrong. this was live to tape, so they

even had time to clean it up when the interview aired, which actually makes it worse. they all knew. they had time to correct this, but they wanted her righteous anger in context which was absolutely the normal reaction to 8.2 million americans being misled. but what did bret do instead of correct this? he hid the ball. he hid the truth. he did what donald trump would have wanted him to do. call that malice aforethought, anybody on that show, they knew what they were doing. they let it go for 24 hours and did a very weak, light, quick apology and never really addressed it. they knew what they were doing. and i'm just really glad that

8.2 million americans had a chance to get a glimmer into how far fox news would go to mislead the american people, their viewers, for the benefit of a man who calls people who don't agree with him the enemy from within. that's what they do. i call that unfair and off balance, but you may decide. and i hope the fox viewers who were watching that get a chance to really think about what they're really seeing, because she pulled the mask off in that one moment. katty kay, i don't know if there's any more i can say about the importance of disinformation, misinformation or misleading information when it comes to bending to somebody with extreme fascist tendencies. have i overstated anything? >> no. i mean, you're quite right. of course we all know, we work

in television a lot. we know immediately when a clip is played that is not the right clip, and you can correct that immediately. throughout that interview, kamala harris, who is always working because of the fact that she is a woman and a woman of color is always walking an incredibly fine line. she says if she's not sounding tough, then she's not strong enough. if she's too strong, then she's angry. it's the most phenomenal juggling act that any woman and any woman of color in particular has to do. i listened to that interview several times. i think she did a really good job of pushing back. i think the moments where he keeps talking over her at the beginning didn't do actually him any favors. how many times have you been talked over? most days, right? i think most women listening to that will have a lot of empathy for what kamala harris was going

through, but she also sounded tough and she corrected the record. i can understand -- >> a dangerous record to correct. >> yeah. and she did it, and she did it in realtime, which is never that easy to do. >> what she was reacting to was dead serious. it required nothing less than what she did, and then they mischaracterize it and show it out of context and wait 24 hours to slightly apologize. really, really frightening. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. going back to the al smith center, what was wall street's reaction? >> well, i was in the room, and i was watching everybody's eyes. i think listening to chris matthews he's right about this event. it is largely a group of republican supporters of donald trump. not all of them -- and in fact,

i don't know if it got picked up in the news really. at the very end of his speech of jokes if you will, there were boos in the room. there were actually very few times of the entire time that folks were booed. the only two people who were booed was trump at the end by some and also bill de blasio, the former mayor of new york at one point was booed. you know, the first five minutes of trump's speech and prior to that, there seemed to be a lot of excitement among a lot of business leaders who were in the room. they're the bold-faced names that you know. steve schwartzman, who's been a trump supporter before, but who said after january 6th he was not going to support him and then, of course, changed his mind. there was this sort of five minutes of lots of sort of laughs and there was some -- i don't want to say humility, but

at one point he said tradition holds that i'm supposed to tell a few self-deprecating jokes this evening so here goes. there was a pause. then, nope, i got nothing. people thought that was funny, if you will, in part because it's true. nonetheless, i say all of that because i do think there became a lot of people looking at each other as this continued and got darker and darker where even some of his supporters, i'm not sure found it all quite that funny. >> interesting. elon musk promoted debunked conspiracy theories about election fraud while hitting the campaign trail to setup yesterday at a town hall outside philadelphia. mark cuban appeared at vice president harris' rally in wisconsin and broke down trump's tariff politician. take a look. >> well, there is i think some amount of cheating that takes

place. it's hard. when you have mail-in ballots and no sort of proof of citizenship, it becomes almost impossible to prove cheating is the issue. a lot of people will say there's no cheating, there's no cheating. i'm like, you've made it impossible to actually prove that there's cheating. statistically there are some strange things happening that are statistically incredibly unlikely. there was a question of say the dominion voting machines. it is weird that, you know, i think they were used in philadelphia and in maricopa county, but not in a lot of other places. that seemed like a heck of a coincidence. >> let me ask you a question. y'all know anybody who doesn't know how tariffs work? all right. i'll give you a hint. that other guy.

no, he has this crazy, crazy, crazy notion that putting a tariff of 60% on every single product imported from china is a good idea. let me just tell you. this man has so little understanding of tariffs, he thinks that china pays for them. i honestly think that he used to understand how tariffs worked. back in the '90s and the early 2000s, he was a little bit coherent when he talked about trade policy and he actually made a little bit of sense. but i don't know what happened to him. the way he's been thinking about tariffs and trade now, something is a little bit lost. and now his trade policies, particularly with tariffs, are basically just gibberish. >> all right. andrew ross sorkin, what do you make of these heavy hitters getting on the campaign trail? >> well, it's surprising to see both of them doing it. the truth is both of them want roles potentially in the next

administration. you hear obviously elon musk wanting a role to create this efficiency committee and it's potentially in the offing that mark cuban wants to be the head of the sec. you know, i will say that i always thought -- i like to believe that the business leaders in america, given frankly the market pressures to be down the middle to some degree, would be a governor on some form of the truth. so it's disturbing to me when you have folks that have not just a big megaphone, but credibility, at least credibility in certain parts, in certain areas. clearly elon musk has done remarkable things as an innovator, and yet he is now talking about election interference and trying to undermine and suggest potentially that this election is going to be subverted. that, to me, is very, very dangerous.

i always thought that the market pressures would prevent such a thing from happening, because somebody like that would say, look, i'm selling cars. i don't want to have both sides coming at me. therefore, you have people who were focused on the truth. and i worry about what's happening here. i worry about how divided not just the country is becoming, but actually that some of these individuals are being used in this way and allowing themselves to be used in this way. >> no question there. andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. have a good weekend. chris matthews, i want to pick up that point. elon musk revived the long-debunked dominion voting machine claims about philadelphia and maricopa county. dominion got $787 million from fox, and now elon musk is wandering into that same territory. >> i don't understand why he's acting like trump. this is what trump's game has

been the last couple of days, questioning how the vote is going to be counted, saying they're going to count early votes on election day as if there's something wrong with the votes. people who are not citizens of the united states don't vote in our elections. if they do, they go to jail. why do you want to spread the rumors that the machines are off or they tend to be democratic? why is a machine democratic? come on. we live in a country this was vibrant in its democracy. when nixon lost, people cried but they said well kennedy is president. when al gore lost, he said that's the way it is. we trust our elections. we trust our country. we believe in it. when you stop believing in democracy, you stop believing in this country. this is awful. i don't care how much billions of dollars this guy's got but he's wrong. he's playing in the swamp. he is the swamp. when you start gaslighting people, tell them they don't see

what they see. you know, groucho marx was right, are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes. >> jasmine, i'll give the final thoughts for this block to you in terms of not just the gaslighting that kamala harris is dealing with as a candidate and i think very effectively, but the short amount of time that she has to make the case and also maybe your thoughts on how she's being portrayed for her contentious interview where she called out fox news for hiding the truth. >> yeah. well, i think that always on the minds of her and her aides are the fact that how she presents herself as a black woman can very easily be misconstrued as her being angry or even aggressive. i think in that fox news interview she matched bret

baier's tone very well. i think she was skilled in kind of running circles around him, trying to poke holes into the questions he was asking, because this is something she's able to do innately because she's a prosecutor. that is so much a part of her personality. throughout this campaign season, we've seen so much about the joyful kamala harris. but the prosecutor kamala harris is there every day too. i think that is what she was really kind of effectively was able to deploy in that interview. you're right. this is a real march to november. the campaign very well knows that their time is short to not just portray the message that donald trump is unfit, but also that kamala harris is just a better option because of all things she wanted to do when they talk about the opportunity economy. they're going to keep marching down november trying to make sure that enough americans hear that message. i think that's why you're seeing this really robust media

strategy. first i think it was fair to qualify them as risk averse, but that is no longer. i think just to your point about how the vice president has been perceived she said in that radio interview that so much about her campaign is just fighting misinformation and disinformation. so both trying to fight that disinformation that the trump campaign and republicans have put on her campaign, but also trying to do a proactive message, that is what we're going to see the vice president and her campaign and all of her surrogates really try to focus on in the last stretch, because they believe that this election is incredibly consequential. i think the vice president is right when she says she feels the weight of responsibility about her role in it. >> you mentioned obama. president obama will be hitting the campaign trail next week. jasmine wright, thank you very much. her latest reporting is "inside