right now on "andrea mitchell reports," peace or war? the u.s. pressing israel to turn the death of hamas leader yahya sinwar into an opening for a

cease-fire and the return of the hostages, not continued war many gaza as prime minister netanyahu said yesterday. president biden seeing a possible path forward. >> the leader of hamas represents a moment of justice. let's make this moment an opportunity to seek a path to peace, a better future in gaza without hamas. >> i will talk to the father of an israeli american hostage on his new hopes for freeing his son and the other hostages who have been held for more than a year. former president trump and vice president harris battling in michigan today. both ramp up their attack lines against each other in the closing days of the campaign. >> the american people are exhausted with his gaslighting. exhausted. enough. enough! >> i hate to talk that way, but we can't let this woman get in. it's two people and she's a

very -- you talk about unstable. she's a whack job. we will talk to two top lawyers, a republican and democrat, spearheading a campaign to protect your vote from being discounted. ♪♪ good day, everyone. i'm andrea mitchell in washington. president biden launching a new round of diplomacy today, pressing israel to kick-start cease-fire talks and free the hostages now that yahya sinwar is dead. in germany today, the president saying he is hopeful it could open the door for all sides to strike a deal, since the state department says sinwar was the chief obstacle to the agreement. the president adding this moments ago in berlin before flying out. >> there's a possibility of working for a cease-fire in lebanon. it's going to be harder in gaza, but we agree that there has to

be an outcome. >> the president is sending tony blinken back to the recent on, likely early next week. sinwar was killed during a chance encounter by israeli troops on routine patrol in rafa on wednesday ending a year-long manhunt. the israelis say this shows his final moments sitting alone in a dusty armchair inside a destroyed building. nbc news cannot confirm that that is sinwar in the video. this is what the israelis say it is. troops recognized his body after he was killed. sinwar's identity later confirmed using dental records and dna. the next image is graphic. the idf says sinwar's body is in that rubble surrounded by soldiers. we have blurred the fatal damage to sinwar's head. amid the jubilation in israel, a new fear of what it could mean for the remaining hostages, including americans, if chaos

were to break out within the ranks of hamas. it's believed sinwar's brother could succeed him. we begin with correspondent had a -- hala gorani and david ignatius. hala, this is day 378 for the host ajz. how are they reacting to his death? >> reporter: we have new information regarding the operation that led to the killing of yahya sinwar. we spoke to a retired major general, who is the former head of the israeli national security council, who was briefed by a source deeply involved in the operation in rafa. he says it wasn't as random as it appears. sinwar's dna was found deep in a tunnel where six israeli

hostages were killed. you will remember in the month of august. they had a sense that sinwar was probably in that part of rafa, because the tunnels that would have allowed him to escape that little section of rafa had all been destroyed. it was likely that he would be in that area. it is true that it was a chance encounter with that group of men that led to his killing. but what we understand from the source who briefed our guest that essentially, they sent a second drone after the first one, the footage of which you showed, to identify him before then going in person. this is what the major general told me moments ago. >> about six weeks ago, the bodies of six israelis were found in the tunnel. it was clear the dna of sinwar was there. the conclusion was that, number one, he was there with them and

they actually probably served him as a human shield. number two, he did not have a chance to escape from the neighborhood. the assumption was that he was there. >> reporter: there you have it. as far as reaction, you could imagine that the families of the hostages really want some sort of resolution to this to get their loved ones out. the people in gaza who have suffered so much over the last year as well with death, destruction and hunger, would also like there to be a way out of this difficult period for them. >> hala, thank you very much. let me turn to john brennan. you know this area so well. as the former cia director, you studied hamas and as homeland national security deputy. hamas is looking for a successor. would to be his brother? would it be one of the -- it's

hard to say less radicalized, but one of the hamas leaders living outside in qatar or someplace else, who would be easier to reach for negotiations? >> i think it's a question hamas leaders are grappling with right now. sinwar was not just the head of gaza's military operations capabilities. he assumed the leadership of hamas's political bureau after israel assassinated haniyeh in tehran in july. he really had full control over the organization. his younger brother as well as sinwar's deputy, they are the ones who are pursuing the militant route that yahya had led. it's likely that one of them is going to take the lead inside of gaza as far as continuing to confront the israeli troops that are there. there is a question about whether or not there's going to be someone who will assume the

mantle of leadership of the political bureau. there are some individuals, one of the founders of hamas and was formerly head of the political bureau, he could be tapped to run that political aspect of the organization. i do think the killing of sinwar is a body blow, a major blow to hamas. i think they're going to have to struggle for a while to see whether or not they can maintain any type of coherent organizational structure that will take guidance and direction from leadership. i think this is one of the things that the israelis are looking very carefully at to figure out who is in charge, if anybody is in charge, and how they're going to pursue their strategy and possibly including negotiations for the release of the hostages if there is, as they say in their statement, a cease-fire and they are conditioning it on the withdrawal of israeli troops from gaza. >> let me also ask you about the

hostages. some of the families -- we will speak to the father of one of them later -- are really concerned that there could be retaliation now. the remaining hamas terrorists could take it out on the american hostages and the others. >> yes, well, there's 100 hostages that hopefully are still alive. they are probably distributed in different parts of gaza in these tunnels. they are under the control of individual hamas unit commanders. it's a question of whether or not any of the commanders are going to take action into their own hands and avenge the death of sinwar. again, this is a question of, who is it that is in control of hamas and is going to make some decisions about the fate of the hostages? hopefully, they're going to remain alive if there's going to be some effort on the part of the israelis to try to ignite negotiations once again that could, in fact, lead to the release of these hostages either

in whole or part. >> as we have been seeing pictures in hostage square in tel aviv where the families have been protesting -- protests overnight and again today. david ignatius, you write the next steps could create a new generation of sinwars. what are you expecting from netanyahu? he said the war continues. that was his public speech. the americans are pressing him from the president on down, the secretary of state will be going as the president ordered, to try to get him to see this as an opening, as a potential to say, you've done enough in gaza. now focus on the hostages and try to get them out with a cease-fire of whatever duration. >> i think prime minister netanyahu has to make a decision with the idf leadership whether this is now the time to move toward an end of the war. the president of israel says he

sees an opportunity to move toward that. we don't know if netanyahu agrees. there are three problems, both for the israelis and for the united states as a mediator. first, who do you negotiate with? as director brennan made clear, the leadership of hamas is uncertain. who do you do the deal with before sinwar was the key person, he had the ability to say yes. there's nobody like that left for the moment. second, what are the terms? the biden administration negotiators worked out elaborate terms for release of palestinian prisoners held in israeli prisons in exchange for the release of the hostages. are those terms the ones that are still on the table? are we starting all over again? finally, in some ways the most important, what comes next after the cease-fire deal? you have got an utterly chaotic

situation in gaza. no clear plan for governance there. increasing chaos in lebanon. you could declare a cease-fire, but who maintains order? i think all those issues really need to be addressed as we move -- as president biden says -- into this moment of opportunity for peace. but key questions that so far as i can tell are not being addressed. >> what was your read on netanyahu's speech, david? >> i thought his speech yesterday was understandably a note of personal and national triumph. he has come back from the bottom in terms of his political popularity and israel's national psyche and morale after october 7. israel was really traumatized. i think he voiced the feeling that israelis have come this

vast distance to announce the person who planned so carefully, so deviously, the attack on october 7, has been killed. so now clearly we are entering into a new phase. i want to say, there are a lot of questions that surround just what happens next. >> john brennan, the other question looming out there is iran. david just alluded to the fighting in beirut and elsewhere in lebanon, which has been ferocious. we're still waiting for israel to retaliate against iran, that that could come at any time. the president reiterated today that -- or said today in germany before leaving that they have been well briefed -- the u.s. has now on what their plans are. we understand it to mean not nuclear facilities, not the energy facilities, but, yes, military ballistic missile sites, the other weapon sites

that have been used to attack israel. what if that happens in the coming days? does that create new risks for the hostages and shut down any kind of window for cease-fire talks? >> i do think overall it's a dangerous period for the hostages. that's why i do agree with david that it's -- the importance is for netanyahu to take advantage of whatever opportunity the death of sinwar represents. iran has to be concerned, because its proxies have been largely defanged in terms of hamas' ability to carry out strikes against israel, hezbollah's abilities and the houthis. the israelis have pummelled all three of those. iran does not have at the ready the capability to direct its proxies to retaliate against israel. also, i would like to think that hamas, hezbollah and the houthis must by saying, listen, we are taking on the chin for iran as opposed to iran taking it on the

chin. again, it's a very uncertain period of time. hoping the israelis are going to moderate their -- and have a moderate response to the iranian missile attacks against israel so we don't escalate into a regional war. again, i do think that netanyahu has to move away from this military path that he has been on and to see whether or not he can seize the moment of the tremendous achievements of the israeli military, decapitating the leadership of the organizations and undercutting the their capabilities and move forward to a path toward peace. >> john brennan and david ignatius, a good place to leave it there. thank you both. we have breaking news on the federal government's election interference case against donald trump. judge chutkan just releasing additional evidence gathered by special counsel jack smith about the former president's actions ahead of the january 6th attack.

ken dilanian has been digging through. it's 1,800 pages that have been released. ken, i don't envy you that. it has to be fascinating. these are the pages the trump lawyers tried so strongly to prevent from being seen. >> they did. it's not just me. we have a team of readers at nbc news pouring through to see if there are new morsels in here. so far, the vast majority of the pages are fully redacted. that's all the sensitive material involving grand jury testimony, fbi interviews. that's unfortunate. it would have been great to see that. what we are seeing are mostly materials that have been in the public record. i have to say, just reading through, it's really rather remarkable. for example, i was reading through the so-called eastman memo, the plan by lawyer john eastman for mike pence to throw

the election to the house of representatives, to stand up there and say that the election is in dispute because there are different sets of state electors. you -- john eastman has been charged criminally in arizona. he is fighting disbarment in california. he could end up in the trump administration if donald trump is elected. consider how close the country came to a major crisis had mike pence gone along with the plan. instead, he did not. there's documents reflecting that from him in there. a letter from him to colleagues saying he didn't feel it was his role to do that. really, the country was so close to something that would have been worse than what we saw. here we are with a coin flip election to put the man who, according to federal prosecutors, orchestrated that scheme back in the presidency. it's worth every american reading these. read the eastman memo. google it. it's online. as i said, we're going through

this to see if there's anything new. >> of course, as you know so well, what judge chutkan wrote in her denial to the trump team was that she as a judge should not be looking either pro or con, either to release or not release, just to go through the normal process of releasing these pretrial documents, which were -- >> that's right. she was pushing back against the critics who have called this whole enterprise election interference. she said, it would be interference to withhold the relevant documents that should be released in the course of litigation, according to the schedule that the supreme court set. >> ken dilanian, thank you so much. we look forward to your continuing reports on that. in 90 seconds, we will turn our attention back to the campaign trail. both candidates ramp up their swing state schedules with michigan right now the target for today. only 18 days to go. you are watching "andrea mitchell reports." this is msnbc.

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trump going after harris on immigration and inflation, his two biggest subjects, and lobbing personal insults. >> i'm the most stable human being. they said a stable genius. i'm the most stable human being. i've been doing this for a long time. i hate to talk that way, but we can't let this woman get in. it's two people and she's a very -- you talk about unstable. she's a whack job. >> vice president harris in wisconsin last night joking to hecklers at one point that they must have meant to go to a smaller rally down the street, a jab at trump. responding to trump's claim that he is the father of ivf. >> the man calls himself the father of ivf. i mean, what does that even mean? when you listen to donald trump talk, it becomes increasingly clear, i think, he has no idea what he is talking about.

when it comes to the health care of women in america. >> joining me now, susan page and victoria defrancesco. michigan is kicking off early in-person voting tomorrow. how critical is michigan to harris and trump, especially to harris? you have the large arab and muslim community there. they are concerned about the war. >> 15 electoral votes could not be closer. harris has a lead of .4. that's less than half of a percentage point. that's not really a lead. that's a tie. this is a state that harris needs to win. it's part of a blue wall. she has an easier path to the white house if she can hold the blue wall, including michigan. that's one reason she's bringing out, michelle obama campaigning with her in michigan. michelle obama, perhaps the most

popular democrat in america. >> that will be, of course, her first appearance on the campaign trail. she was at the dnc. michelle obama was reluctant, according to all reports, to go out and campaign. victoria, harris took a more aggressive tone against trump after he once again defended january 6th. let's watch. >> what did donald trump say last night about january 6th? he called it, quote, a day of love. and we are all clear, the american people are exhausted with his gaslighting. exhausted. >> there was reluctance on the part of harris and her campaign for her to be tough and critical of him initially. now she's been really ramping it

up. there was concern about how close it was. you can see a more aggressive tone this week. >> we know that negative ads, negative messaging, negativity works. it works because of the cognitive and effective mechanism that each of us have. we pay more attention when there's conflict, when there's anxiety. donald trump knows this very well. we have seen him use, embrace anxiety with that. what we see harris do now is say, look, january 6th, this was dangerous. this endangers people. folks, perk up, this isn't about a day of love, this is something that endangers you. we are seeing a similar playbook that trump has used in terms of using anxiety, embracing that to mobilize his base and also potentially persuade people.

negativity, while we don't necessarily want it in politics, we know it mobilizes. >> susan, there was the al smith dinner last night in new york. it's traditionally always the candidates come and they dress up in fancy clothes and they crack jokes and tease each other. kamala harris was out campaigning. she did not go. she sent a video to the archdiocese of new york, which is the host. it was a spoof with molly shannon playing mary catherine gallagher. trump did show up. we will show you both. >> it's a pleasure anywhere in new york without a subpoena for my appearance. any time i don't get a subpoena, i'm very happy. they have gone after me. mr. mayor, you are peanuts compared to what they have done to me. >> is there anything that maybe i shouldn't bring up.

>> don't lie. >> indeed, especially thy neighbor's election results. >> susan, you have attended many of the dinners, as have i. they are pretty funny. how important was it that she didn't show up? we also had bill clinton giving his first joint campaign event with tim walz last night in north carolina. >> north carolina is more important to her than new york. the catholic vote can be important, not to dismiss that. more important for her to be in a swing state than to be in manhattan. these dinners often are funny. you heard funny lines and stuff about being in new york without a subpoena. he had a tough message there, not the light touch we are accustom to seeing. you can see that chuck schumer,

the senate democratic leader, looking unhappy, pretty uncomfortable at some of the jokes that donald trump was making. >> he took a hard line. he was joking about eric adams, the very much in focus in new york because of the investigations into the mayor of new york and all of his aides. difficult moment there. thanks to both of you. next, the father of an american israeli hostage held for more than a year by hamas, his hopes after the death of yahya sinwar. this is "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. of life. leo's number 2's are really getting better. better poo, better you! that's a good boy, leo! it's payback time. all these years, you've worked hard.

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