good to be with you. i'm katy tur. 18 days until the election, and today donald trump and vp kamala harris are in michigan. harris is holding a rally in grand rapids before heading to a united auto workers union hall while donald trump will stop in oakland county and then rally in detroit, a city he compared to a developing nation just last week. at the same time, both candidates are digging into their respective media strategies. harris is sitting down with just about everybody she can. from pop culture podcasts, and radio shows like charlamagne tha god and her heated back and forth with bret baier got 7 million viewers with the single biggest viewing market being pittsburgh in the must win state

of pennsylvania. trump is also out there getting vulgar at a comedy dinner for catholic charity last night and sitting down with a chummy chat with fox and friend this morning. and aside from the town hall, where he got tough questions from skeptical latino voters, one in particular, he's playing it safe. now reportedly too tired to do anything outside of fox. "politico" reporting talks between trump's team and the shade room, an outlet vp harris sat for last week that featured a huge black audience had fallen apart. with two people familiar with the -- telling the show the former president is exhausted and refusing some interviews. but that could change at any time. how is all of this playing on the ground in places where voters will actually be voting. joining us now, nbc news correspondent, vaughn hillyard. nbc news senior white house correspondent kelly o'donnell.

national affairs correspondent with the nation, john nichols, also with me, msnbc contributor, and author of the new book, american reckoning, inside of trump's trial, and my own, jonathan alter. i have my own reckoning to deal with. let's start with you, vaughn. donald trump's schedule, walk us through what he's doing in michigan and this media strategy where he's seeming only to be talking to fox news. >> number one, oakland county is his first stop, the suburbs northwest of detroit. oakland county is where vice president harris will be later this evening. if you look at a place like oakland county, it's representative of those metropolitan suburbs that he and reasons have increasingly lost over the years. it used to be a republican stronghold. then in 2016, he lost that county by 8 percentage points. in 2020, he lost by 14 percentage points. he really needs to win back some of those suburbs to pull off a

michigan win. tonight he's rallying in detroit, a part of their strategy for the trump campaign is to get some of those low propensity voters, voters that don't often turn out to come and back in, even if they didn't in 2016, 2020, don't have historical voting record. as for his media strategy and the strategy as a whole, it's sort of, you throw an awful lot at the wall, and you have seen him on podcasts. you saw him on fox and friends this morning. yet we have also seen him cancel multiple events over the last several days. cancel multiple interviews, and there was a note about him being exhausted, according to "politico," as a reason for cancelling some of those events, i want you to look at a statement for a spokesperson for the trump campaign, and they write, president trump is running laps around kamala harris on the campaign trail and has done media interviews every day this week. he has more energy and harder work ethic than anyone in

politics. here's a clip of his appearance in new york on fox and friends this morning. >> i'm 6 years old, i live on a farm in massachusetts. what's your favorite farm animal? >> favorite farm animal? >> well, you know, i tell you what i love, i love cows. but if we go with kamala, you won't have any cows anymore. i don't want to ruin this kid's day. i love cows. i think they're so cute and so beautiful. but, according to kamala, who's a radical left lunatic, you will not have any cows anymore. >> now, of course that appearance on fox is in stark contrast to the one that the vice president harris did with bret baier did two days ago, but also just a reference to the cows part of that, there is the green new deal back in 2019 that was proposed and at the time, republicans, including donald trump, wrongly falsely suggested that they wanted to get rid of cows, that democrats wanted to get rid of cows in order to cut back methane emissions, which

leads us to today and that bit you saw from donald trump. >> donald trump not getting any push back on fox and friends. harris later in the evening with bret baier getting a whole lot of pushback. vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. kelly, kamala harris, the vp, is in michigan as well. she's talking to voters out there, also union voters. what's the strategy here? who does she need in michigan? >> well, making multiple stops in michigan, and i'm in oakland county that vaughn was talking about. she'll be here later this evening, and part of the strategy is to try to chip away at votes from donald trump in rural areas and run up the score among suburban voters, and that's where the harris campaign tells me they believe they are showing strength. some of that has to do with the strength of women voters, college educated voters and so forth. they believe a path way to victory in the state of michigan is to focus in those ways, and

to deliver an economic message. she is talking to union voters here. is talking about donald trump 's record and how he has at times, not stood up for workers and oversaw periods of time when plants closed. those kinds of things to make the argument, but the number of those appearances in michigan gives us a sense of how critically important it is. vaughn was also talking about the issue of candidate fatigue. well, all of us know from covering campaigns over the years, it can be a grind. it's an issue in this moment. facing donald trump, at times it faced president joe biden when he was the candidate, and it's bubbled up today, and kamala harris was asked about the pace and schedule that donald trump is on, this report about being exhausted and cancelling some things. she had an informal q&a with reporters, and here's what she had to say. >> been critical of you not

attending last night. as you were talking about him being exhausted. do you think that's why he chose to go to new york city instead of coming on the campaign trail. >> i'm beyond getting in the head of donald trump. i would say it should be a concern if he can't handle the rigors of the campaign trail, is he fit? >> reporter: the vice president has been making what amounts to an age argument at times, talking about the vigor of donald trump, pointing out the generational difference between her as a candidate and donald trump, 78 years old, of course earlier in the campaign, that was a big story line and a big area of concern among voters broadly who were concerned about the age of the two candidates when it was donald trump and joe biden. she is not going at it as hard as some of her allies, but she raises that question about his fitness, his wellness. she calls him unhinged at times.

trying to point out matters of character and competence regularly on the campaign trail. >> so donald trump also in michigan as we said, he's in oakland county, just finished speaking to reporters. mentioned that benjamin netanyahu called him but says he has not been able to connect. jonathan alter, let's talk about the state of this race. you have this new book out "american reckoning" and in it there's juicy details about nancy pelosi and the conversations she had with joe biden or at least details surrounding the conversation she had with joe biden and convincing him to drop out of the race. do we have a sense of how she feels now that kamala harris is in it, that we're three weeks out. does she still feel confident that getting joe biden to step aside was the right move? >> absolutely. she's thrilled by this. i think you can make a very important argument. if harris goes on to win this election, we'll say that nancy pelosi did as much as anybody to save american democracy.

in american reckoning, i try to take the readers through some of what happened, and after that disastrous june 27th debate with biden and trump, at first, pelosi, you know, wasn't sure that biden necessarily had to go. then she started seeing polling data from house races, and she made a secret trip to the white house to see the president, her old friend. nobody knew about it at all. she did not go there to tell him to get out. she went there to establish a line of communication, kind of an i'm here for you approach, listening, as one of her friends told me, she could cut your head off and you wouldn't even know it. in this period, she was upset that the men, were, quote, mia, the men being bill clinton, barack obama, hakeem jeffries, chuck schumer, why were hers the only bloody fingerprints on the

knife. and eventually, the men stepped up and they showed the president polling data that was very unflattering for him, and he made his decision. but he cut off, i heard from a very good source, cut off all contact with barack obama and bill clinton in the last four days when he's making this decision. >> a lot of the book also deals with the public consciousness and what we accept as truth any longer and what we allow, the reckoning of what's happened since donald trump came on the scene, and when you look at the polling right now, it has been remarkably stable, and there are folks out there questioning why kamala harris, given all that donald trump did when he was president, all he tried to do after he was president to stay in office, what he continues to do, how it could possibly be so close. people have some theories. i wonder if you have yours? >> so i think that historians will be talking about this for a

long time. but the reason i call it american reckoning is there's the reckoning that donald trump faced. i sat every day in the courtroom, just a few feet away from the most dangerous man in the history of our republic, and he was called to account. it's kind of a happy story, my book in some ways. he can be brought to account. that was his reckoning. my reckoning is what you just mentioned, how can this be, and you know, i've covered plit -- politics for a long time. i grew up in a political family. it's shaken my faith in the common sense in about half of the american people, i wrestle with that in this book, which i think is common for a lot of voters, and then the final reckoning is what i call the big jury, and that's starting already right now. so i was interested in trump's fatigue because i report in the book, by my calculations, i was looking at them every day. he was asleep for about a third

of our trial, including in key moments of michael cohen's testimony. so there are clearly some fatigue issues going on with this guy right now. >> for anybody who's getting up there in years. he's 79 years old. the oldest man to run as a major party nominee, for any political party. running for president. john nichols, i want to talk a little bit more about michigan and the rust belt states. what's happening. we have been talking about it nonstop now since the republican national convention at least. have you seen any changes, any indicators for you? >> there's a lot of indicators. what we've seen is that the harris campaign has really begun to get much more focused in on the reality of these states. remember, certainly the harris campaign picked up from the biden campaign. it still had to get its groove, get its focus, and what i have

noticed, in fact, it fits into the last two days here, kamala harris yesterday did three stops in wisconsin. today, three stops, i think it's three stops in michigan. and her message is becoming much more focused and the focus is on these labor issues, these trade issues. she should have been talking about them two weeks ago. there is simply no question of that. and i think what you've seen in all of these states is a narrowing, a closing of the gap. right after the convention, harris took off, opened up some margins. there was a lot of happy speculation on the part of democrats that she might easily take. now it's very clear they are pure battlegrounds, very very close contests, and so harris is coming in now with a much more sophisticated and focused message for those voters. her remarks today at the union hall will be all the things she's been saying in the context of uaw had been very important. i'll bring back one other

element. this fatigue element that we have just been talking about is a big deal because this is clear that donald trump is not only just tired, he's also stumbling, saying things that you wouldn't say if you were seriously thinking about how best to present yourself in the battleground states. for instance, his comment the other day about this notion that auto workers just open up boxes and put things together like a child. i cannot begin to tell you how much most national media has under covered that comment, and how much michigan media and the uaw have amplified that comment. so it's a big deal. >> this is donald trump talking about -- auto workers here are not really doing a big deal job. the cars are really manufactured elsewhere. they were sending them over, and they're just taking parts out of the boxes and putting them together. he says even a child could do that. i was just going to ask you a

question along those lines. is there something that's happening in the michigan, in wisconsin, that is getting a lot of attention, and you think that this could be a mover for some voters, this comment on auto workers could be a deciding comment for union workers? >> absolutely. no question about it. they literally have been posting on social media, union members saying i want to tell you about my job. i want to tell you about, you know, how much my back aches, my knees hurt, and also just all of the technical realities of doing the job of a modern auto worker. of course it has resonance. will it necessarily tip the balance? will this decide who wins the presidency? it may not be that, but it's a factor that matters a lot because you're trying to appeal to workers and you're trying to make a connection with them. you could talk about trade. you can talk about a host of other issues, but then you can talk about their job, do you respect what they do?

senator sherrod brown always talks about the dignity of work, respecting the fact that people do all sorts of different jobs. those jobs require a loft them, and you ought to understand and respect them. donald trump in that statement, i think, opened himself up to a world of hurt politically. and i could tell you in interviewing leaders of the uaw, and other unions, they are very conscious of the power of this issue. i can't necessarily quote some of uaw president fain's comments about donald trump on this issue because family television. >> i got that. john, i think you'll be happy to hear this news because i know you have been talking about how kamala harris needs to do less events with the liz cheney's and conservative republicans, and more with the obamas. the harris campaign announced president obama will join her for a rally in georgia next week, a get out the vote rally. that's going to happen next week.

maybe she or somebody on the campaign was reading some of your work, john nichols. >> and michelle is going out on the trail too, in a few days. in detroit. >> interesting. gentlemen, thank you very much. still ahead, he helped make donald trump a household name, what a former nbc marketing executive who promoted "the apprentice" is saying about the show and its star. and what was just unsealed in jack smith's election interference case. we are back in 90 seconds. conds. everything medicare has to offer, and much more. with a humana medicare advantage plan. humana has plans that can enhance your life in so many ways. it starts with peace of mind. humana's medicare advantage plans offer $0 or low monthly plan premiums. and there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs. these plans can even include coverage for the medications you take to feel your best every day. with $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions. most plans include dental, vision, even hearing

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a former nbc marketing executive who promoted the apprentice is apologizing to the american people for helping to, quote, create a monster. john deen miller says the story he and his team created for donald trump was at best a quote substantial exaggeration, at worst, a false narrative making him seem more successful than he was. joining us now former nbc executive, john dean miller. nbc news are part of come past nbc universal. i'm so excited to talk to you. i tried to talk to you and others in the 2016 campaign about the myth of donald trump from "the apprentice" because what i would hear when i talked to him from voters, they were voting because they thought he would do a good job because he was a good businessman, and they said, how do you know he's a good businessman, because i saw

him on the apprentice. >> we were good at marketing shows. and in this case, creating the false narrative of donald trump as a big businessman was very important. the thing was is that people had the -- you didn't win a date. you won a career. and so people had to come in and for $250,000, if they won, they would get a chance to spend a year with a ceo that would be the person, the apprentice by their sides, learning everything they could. >> they get mentored. >> yes, correct. well, that was pretty much a false narrative as well. the big thing was we had to make donald trump look like he was a big executive. and before that he was largely popular in new york. he had been bankrupt at least four times from various businesses. i think two more after the show went on the air. and so clearly we had to make something bigger than it was, as

i sort of said promotion, making mountains of mole hills. >> so he wasn't a good business executive? >> if someone had been bankrupt four times, and six in total, i'm not so sure. the reason i came forward to a large degree was there's so many people that say that the economy is the biggest thing in this election. and just as you related to us just a minute ago, if people think that he's the person for that because he was a great businessman, that is a false narrative. we did it for the show. but it became very dangerous now for the country. >> so there are americans now who will say -- i don't need to look to the apprentice, i can look to the four years while he was in office. i thought he did a good job while he was in office. what do you say to them about the -- about maybe the foundational idea they have of donald trump in their mind? >> well, there are some sophisticated things that went on in the economy. first of all, as obama basically

said, he left trump with a very good economy. and along the way, he didn't really do very much, and so he sort of got out of the way of it. and so what i would say is that he was lucky along the way, until he hit a stumbling bloc which was the pandemic, in which he mishandled in that way. he did give a tax cut to a lot of different people. not many people in the certain economic spectrum took great advantage of that. what i would say to him is maybe he helped you a little bit. what i would say say is the last four years have actually also been strong with a stock market hitting new highs, and inflation now low, unemployment also low. and so i think that he did a very good job of selling himself, which is what he always did. >> economists will argue that presidents don't really have that much sway over the economy because the economy moves so slowly, and decision that you make during your presidency doesn't really come to fruition. you know, so the results of it,

many years down the line. so would you be arguing that the donald trump that you saw during covid was more the donald trump as the executive he was before he was elected into office? >> he rarely was, in my knowledge of him and working with him and talking to him, because i knew him for a number of years in this particular period of time was that he was very good at selling himself. he was very good at telling what he did without actually doing it. and to a large degree, he followed along what maybe he learned what we did on the show because we created the persona for him, and he went along with it, and that was very much an advantage to him. but to a large degree, not true. >> we are less than three weeks before the next election. why are you writing this now? why not four years ago, eight years ago? >> up until '22 when i retired, i was a senior executive reporting to the ceo of nbc

universal and comcast and it was inappropriate for me as an executive at the time. i wasn't in your position as a news reporter, i was an executive, and the company had policies about that sort of thing. i probably wouldn't have done it at that point. after that, i started writing a book, and i realized i am not going to get this published before the election goes out. i had to get it out beforehand, and as i was thinking about what can i do, and i said, well, i have to start somewhere, so i did a facebook post and i got a lot of response on that. i said let me do a linked in post. i have a lot of followers there. a lot more awareness, and then u.s. news and world report called me and said would you do an op ed. i said i have one ready, and i sent it to them, and within three hours it was released, and since then, i have been nonstop talking, and it's nice voting for you. >> are you going to be voting for kamala harris? >> absolutely. >> first of all, i never voted

for trump in the first point, after meeting him and working with him, that was a nonstarter, basically he's a phony. he does certain things, but governing is not one of them. >> what would you say to somebody who was considering whether they wanted to vote for her or him, somebody who still might be on the fence? >> i would say if you have a disagreement with policy, it does not matter. he's a character that's a nonstarter. and he lies regularly. he will say the same thing over and over again, even though it's not true. i make the little statement, and this is so small by comparison to like the stealing of the election and the pandemic and everything else that he says he did well, to me he would call up and say, i was like the fifth call of the day, how did we do john, and i knew he had seen the ratings. i had the ratings in front of me. number one show in television. >> always cared about numbers. we're going to go to an interview with kamala harris and

our own peter alexander which starts just moments ago, let's listen. at the convention, you cast yourself as a joyful warrior, but in recent rallies, you have increasingly attacked former president trump as unstable and unhinged. >> and unfit. >> reporter: is that an effective closing argument? >> i think that one is not to the exclusion of the other. i have a great deal of optimism, as do the people who are here, about the future of our country, and i think that's one of the things that is building the momentum that we have. people really do believe in what is the promise of america and our responsibility to fight for it. that is not in conflict with also being clear eyed about the danger that donald trump poses based on the language that he has used and his admiration for dictators, his inability to really focus on the needs of the american people, these things are not in conflict, they exist at the same time. >> the critics say the joy is gone, you respond? >> i'm having a great time. >> let me ask you, if i can,

about one of the challenges the campaign faces. polls show there's a widening gender gap, donald trump leads particularly among men by 16 points right now. why is that, and why do you think there's a disconnect for you with men right now? >> let me tell you, you can look at this audience, and you can see that there are people of every background and gender who are showing up by the thousands, and i think it's because they know i intend to be a president for all americans, and that's how i'm campaigning to earn the vote of every american, not only about their gender but about their geographic location and unburdened by who they may have voted for in the past. this is a moment like we saw with the republicans who are supporting me most publicly recently, it's a time to put country before party, and really, again, with a sense of optimism fight for what we care about. >> reporter: just to be clear, though, men still say by 60% mar begin that they're supporting donald trump right now.

why do you think that is? >> that's not the experience i'm having right now. >> reporter: president biden said every president has to cut their own path. what is one policy you would have done differently over these last three and a half years than president biden? >> to be very candid with you, even including mike pence, vice presidents are not critical of their presidents. i think that really in terms of the tradition of it and also just going forward, it does not make for a productive and important relationship. >> reporter: he has not given you the green light to carve your own path. >> going forward, there's no question, and i bring my own experiences and my own life experiences. >> reporter: is there a policy that stands out to you in particular? >> sure, my approach around medicare covering home health care. born out of my experience of taking care of my mother. my priority on housing, one, because i know what it means, affordable housing and the ability to buy a home.

my own experience. my mother saved up when i was a teenager, and i know for so many young people who i speak with around our country, the american dream is really out of reach. so my policy about $25,000 down payment assistance to help them get their foot in the door. the work that i have been doing and will bring to the presidency emphasizing small businesses, has been part of the bone of the economy. those are the experiences and the ideas that i have that are about moving forward and really being a part of the next generation of leadership in america. >> reporter: last one, we heard people chanting happy birthday. you have a milestone birthday on sunday. chivalry is not dead. i'm not going to say what age you're turning, but you talk about generational change, what does generational change mean to you? >> i think it's it's about a state of mind, and understanding we should be focused on this moment, and this is a very particular moment where there is a lot happening in our country that is about i