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oh, you guys are at the wrong rally. no, i think you meant to go to the smaller one down the street. >> i love the shoulder adjustment when she knows she's about to say a good line. but that was vice president harris shutting down some hecklers on thursday by ridiculing trump for one of the things he is most sensitive about -- is crowd sizes. she's been getting him a lot lately, and it seems to be working. lookout trump melted down over recent allegations that he's been ducking interviews and slowing down. >> i got 48 days now without a rest, and i got that loser who doesn't have the energy of a rabbit. tell me when you see me take even a little bit of a rest. not only have i -- i'm not even tired.

>> rabbit. okay, donald. but it's not only the candidate who is getting under trump's skin. it is also harris's campaign spokesperson, ian sams. there is many fox news appearances, you can see them on the screen there, trump whined repeatedly this week the fox is giving sam's too much airtime, timing that he, quote -- and this is a trump quote -- virtually owns the network. he also mentions him by name on his appearance on fox and friends late this week. that's called getting in someone's head. letting me now is ian sams, a senior adviser for the harris/walls campaign. there's a lot to talk about, but this is kind of a badge of honor. i mean, trump attacking you by name tells me he thinks people are listening to you. so why do you think you're getting under his skin so much? >> well, i just a spokesperson and i try to spend every single day advocating for why my candidate has the right vision

for the country, and her plans for people, and why donald trump doesn't. i don't really know why donald trump seems to be spending his time tivo inc. fox news appearances and lashing out against spokespeople. that's not something that the vice president does. i think she things more about the country and what she wants to do as president is on cable news talking about her. i think this is something that people remember from when donald trump was president, which is, instead of actually taking on the mantle of leadership and doing things on behalf of the american people, he sits in the dining room during catch up at the wall, watching fox news, and i think that that is something that people should think about when we have these final few weeks to the election. is that what we want to go back to? do we want to have a guy who is on truth social every day, someone who is, as we do showed in that clip, increasingly diminished and on the decline, where would be even worse than it was in his first term?

and i think that these things have consequences for people. is this the kind of guy the one in charge of the nuclear codes? is this the kind of guy that you think is actually going to spend any time thinking about you as a voter and you as a person in your life and what would make your life easier and better? no. he is someone who is literally watching pundits talk and rage true thing about it. and so i think this is part of the core contrast between the two leadership styles that you see between these two candidates. >> well, i know you're not going to say it, but i will say it. it's because he knows you are effective at your job. i'm sure your friends from college are loving and enjoying this whole moment. it's talk about the campaign. the campaign released a statement last night. we've been talking a bit so far in the show about this vivid story trump told about arnold palmer in the shower. i do have lots of questions. you released a funny statement -- why -- because in other times, we would have me be brushed by it and moved by it. what do you think that story tells us, and why was it

important to release a statement about his weird creepy story? >> he is increasingly unstable and unhinged. you hear the vice president talk about that and you hear her talk about the fact that this is someone who will ramble on and on and on and make absolutely no sense, and it raises real questions about his mental fitness for the office. and at a time where he won't release his medical records, at a time where he won't fit with real interviewers like 60 minutes and answer questions in front of the country, where he won't debate her again. it really does raise questions about his mental capacity and his ability to do the job. when he goes on these long rambles, his team tries to get to the press. and they told cnn, his big speech in pennsylvania is going to be part of his closing argument in the campaign, and it's about a dead golfer's anatomy. it is really weird stuff that is happening every day by donald trump on the trail. i think part of why we talk

about it and why you hear the vice president talk about it is, i think so much of our mass media and so much of the country are numb to the last decade of donald trump, and they are watching his rallies as much as they used to. and i think that people need to see and hear what he is actually saying to understand what an unstable person this is, and that if you go to the polls in two weeks, that is what you are voting for if you vote for him. >> no question. i agree. people need to see it. quickly, before i let you go, tomorrow is a huge day on the campaign trail. full day with liz cheney, the vice president is spending -- never thought i would speak those words, and here we are in 2024. who is the main audience for these events, and why is it so important to spend the day doing this, just over two weeks from the election? >> well, i think the vice president said this a lot. she wants to be a president for all americans. not just people in the middle, but everybody.

i think when you have people who are rockribbed conservatives like liz cheney were standing up and saying, donald trump poses a real threat to everything we care about is a country, he poses a threat to your life, other it's on national security or the economy or your freedoms, that is something people should take very seriously. when you go out on the campaign trail and the vice president is going to wisconsin tomorrow to suburban areas where there are a lot of people who are still to be trying to make up their mind. they are trying to make up their minds between vice president harris and former president trump. a.b. they have been hearing all this noise we've been talking about on fox news and elsewhere about her being some scary liberal. when they see her and they hear her and they hear her talk about her commitment to be a president for everybody, when she goes on fox news and tells fox news viewers, or soft and fed a bunch of crap about her what the truth is, which is that she actually cares about being a president for all americans and she's going to wake up every day, even if you didn't vote for her, try to make your life better, when you get out to these battleground states and talk to these voters

directly with a rockribbed conservative like liz cheney, it helps illustrate that point and shows people she's not the caricature of donald trump tries to paint her out to be, because she isn't. she's going to keep talking about the fact that she's going to be a president for all americans. it's why you seen hundreds of americans come out and endorse her presidency. former vice president cheney. i mean, 20 years ago, would you have thought that a democrat would be earning the support of vice president cheney? i think it shows the stakes of this election for people's freedoms in the constitution, and she's going to be talking about that tomorrow. >> ian sams, we will be watching it and taking a lot of it. so much for joining me. i know you have a busy life and schedule these days. marjorie taylor green and elon musk are pushing the line with fox news. you really have to hear this one to believe it. i will explain it all, coming up next. up next.

>> any political year that is been very unpredictable, one thing has been aggravating the predictable -- donald trump and his allies are attempting to run the same playbook that they attempted to run in the 2020 election. they claim mail-in ballots are subject to fraud, that noncitizens will vote in mass numbers, even that overseas ballots from our men and women in uniform can't be trusted. it is the same batch of life that we were served up in 2020. there is one that re-emerged this week that i am, honestly, even a little surprised to see again. because it was one of the only lies from 2020 that came with a very heavy penalty. now, you may remember that one of the more outrageous lies that came out of the 2020 election was the company dominion voting systems as part of a plot to rig the election. it was pushed by none other than sidney powell, who claimed that dominion machines somehow manipulated the results of the election in favor of joe biden.

now, as you might also remember, those lies about dominion spread like wildfire aunt donald trump's favorite cable news channel. >> in the state of michigan, republicans are moving in to investigate the software glitch called dominion that actually changed thousands of votes trumped to biden. they caught it. the same software also, quote, glitched in georgia and was used in as many as 28 states. >> they have a stack of affidavits of sworn testimony that say they saw the dominion machines change votes. >> we have a machine, the dominion machine, filled with holes like swiss cheese, and was developed to steal elections. >> in case you forgot what came after that, dominion's box use. and ended up settling with the channel for a jaw-dropping $787 million. as the dominion lawyers said at the time on the settlement, the truth matters.

lies have consequences. of course they do, and should. zebedee might want to remind the trump world of that these days, because would you believe it? they are once again spreading the exact same lie. >> someone posted up that when they went to vote here in george's 14th district, they went to vote with the dominion machines. when this voter printed their ballot and they looked, it had changed. it was not donald trump. it was not me and not the other ones they had voted for. it had switched. >> there's no cheating, there's no cheating. you made it impossible to actually prove that. but statistically, there some very strange things that happen that -- that are statistically incredibly unlikely. so -- you know, there's always a question of, like the dominion voting machines, it is weird that the, you know, i think they were used in philadelphia and in maricopa county, but not in a lot of

other places. doesn't that seem like a heck of a coincidence? >> no. none of that is true. but by all means, keep talking, maga world. keep lying about dominion and see what happens, they are definitely taking notice. i mean, they posted this just yesterday. dominion is closely monitoring claims around the november 2024 election. we remain fully prepared to defend our company and our customers against wise and those who spread them. so dominion and its litigation team are paying close attention, and they should be, because the point here is that the truth matters. liza should have consequences, and trump allies would do well to remember that. now, coming up, it turns out barack obama, still pretty good at this whole campaigning thing. and the people who ran his own campaigns are still pretty good at the strategy piece, too. obama's former campaign manager jen mussina is standing by to answer three questions about the state of the race.

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really going on. it is so great to see you. thank you for being here. let me start with the first question. if you are the harris campaign and you have been the campaign manager in the final weeks of a winning campaign, what was the best thing that happened this week? >> real-life humans voting. it is so exciting. every night now, you get a spreadsheet about how many people are voting and what percentage of them are democrats, which are republicans. in georgia, we are double the pace of 2020, the covid year. it's unbelievable how many people are voting in some of the swing states. >> such a good point. you can cross those off the list of people you don't need to try to get out to vote on election day, which is why it's also encouraging. if you are running a campaign, as you have run, there's time to go here, so it's not a negative one. what is your biggest concern right now that you need to be going a little bit better over the next couple of weeks? >> time. i mean, if you think about in

politics, your three things. you have time, money, and volunteers. you can't go get more time. and so there's really difficult decisions being made in wilmington right now about what you do with her time. what you do with the surrogates time. you know, there's competing things that the press team wants around these tv interviews, the fundraising team wants her to do one more big event. the battleground states are saying, we've got to have her three more times in michigan. and so, you know, making those decisions becomes the most important thing. it's why you see these campaign people on tv and they look absolutely exhausted, because everyone is telling them they are a band of idiots, and they should do it their way, and they have to make really, really difficult decisions. >> i know was three big questions, but i could do options of them. that's part of the rule. with that in mind, to give people insight at home, you are deciding with her time where she should travel. so you are looking at the map

right now. where you expect they are going to double down, or where should they over the next two -- just over two weeks? >> the big three midwestern blue wall states. i mean, she's going to be in michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania it on, especially pennsylvania. i remember the week before the 2012 election brock obama calling me and saying, mussina, if you send me to x city one more time, and what have you killed. i said, i know. you will be there on monday. they are just going to go back and back and back. >> is the six to seven states. okay. what is the thing that nobody is talking about or not talking about enough right now that everybody should be paying attention to and we should all have our eye on? >> november 6th. everyone's talking about november 5th and who's going to win on election day. my worry is the day after. you've already seen in the battleground states the trump world filing 100 lawsuits, attempting to stop early voting

, stop voting locations, kick people off the rolls, changing rules in georgia literally weeks before the election. that is a precursor to what they are going to do after the election. they are going to try to set up a way to steal this election to get some of these crazy cases to their favorite united states supreme court. as a campaign manager, used to tease our lawyers about how much i didn't like having to spend this money on lawyers, but the truth is, setting up some of these legal battles is going to be incredibly important. we know that trump is going to try to heal this. he did last time. i don't think enough attention is being paid to what is happening in these legal fights. >> i know you have been thinking about this. we will talk about that and although same big questions next week. we will do another gut check. hank you for taking the time. for mac i got one more thing to tell you before we go today.

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>> quick programming know before we go. today, vice president kamala harris is sitting down with their very own reverend al sharp and in atlanta for an exclusive interview to discuss early voting in georgia and the importance of reaching black voters. atlanta air today at 5:00 p.m. east turn on msnbc. stay right where you are because there is a lot more news coming up on msnbc. msnbc.