and all the vice president's behalf. i don't think there's any stand-in for the candidate herself. so, i think that we do need to see another town hall like atmosphere, like we saw with liz cheney the other day, with some base democratic voters. she's doing a town hall this evening on another network. we'll see what that looks like. she's not leeing anything on the field and that's necessary if she wants to be successful. look, i think the vice president herself has done the work. now the voters, we'll see if they're feeling what she's putting down. >> we should note, of course, that town hall tonight scheduled in place of what would have been her second debate with donald trump except donald trump backed out. simone sanders townsend, thank you for joining us this morning. we'll talk to you real soon. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. going into this election, the spotlight is on us more than ever. i think it's important to use your voice. so i'm encouraging everyone to get out and vote, please.

i also think that people shouldn't be afraid to express their opinions. i don't think anyone wants an america where people are worried about retribution or what people will do if you make your opinion known. i think vice president harris supports a future for this country, where these freedoms and many others will be protected and upheld. and here to tell you much more about that, president barack obama. >> i got to say, you know, i have done a lot of rallies. so i don't usually get nervous. but i was feeling some kind of way following eminem. i noticed my palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy,

mom's spaghetti. i'm nervous but at the surface i'm calm and ready but drop bombs but i keep on forgetting. [ cheers and applause ] ♪♪ i thought eminem was going to be performing. i was going to jump out. >> former president obama channelling rap superstar eminem after being introkused by the grammy award winner at a rally in the artist's hometown of detroit. it was obama's second event of the day. earlier, he was in madison, wisconsin, for a rally with kamala harris' running mate, governor tim walz. meanwhile, bruce springsteen

will headline rallies for obama for harris. one in atlanta and another in monday in philadelphia. as for vice president harris, she sat down for multiple interviews, including nbc spanish language sister network telemundo she called herself a pragmatic capitalist pushing back on the misconception pushed by donald trump that she is a socialist. >> a lie. >> all of this comes as donald trump's campaign grows ever darker. and we are now hearing from trump's longest-serving chief of staff, retired general john kelly, describing the former president's praise for hitler and issuing dire warnings about his former boss. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 23rd. with us we have the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan

lemire, katty kay, msnbc political analyst and publisher of the newsletter "the ink." and former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. and "new york times" investigative reporter michael schmidt is with us. >> willie, a lot to talk about this morning. of course last night's rally in detroit, it's hard to find somebody that fits the moment as far as politically and demographically more than eminem regarding showing up at a rally. he and barack obama at that michigan rally, really something to behold. we're getting dark news, dismal news from donald trump's longest-serving chief of staff, general who committed his life to protecting and defending

americans, depending our shores and defending the constitution of the united states. >> yeah. general who served the country, who lost a son to war, a general who served as chief of staff to donald trump for a couple of years during that first term and who now is so deeply concerned that we're going to talk to michael schmidt has gone on the record for several interviews talking about his concerns about donald trump's obsession with autocrats w fascism and mika read in our open, saying donald trump's praise for hitler, it's one of those moments where we just have to stop and consider what is being said about this man. we can't blow past that. he gets so many passes. so graded on a curve. praise for hitler. that's disqualifying in any other political campaign in the history of politics. and yet donald trump skates by among many of his supporters. and by the way, many people in congress, senators, people who know better about this man. so we'll get into some of the details of it.

but this is some we heard whispers about this but now general kelly going on the record to talk about it. >> yeah. this is a moment that it will stand out as we look back on how this plays out. >> yeah. let's go into the tape and see, of course, what republicans do to defend donald trump in this case. >> this is michael schmidt's interview with donald trump's former chief of staff, don kelly, in taped conversation kelly said the former president meets the definition of a fascist. and would rule like a dictator if he wins another term. here you can hear them. >> certainly the former president is in the far-right area. he's certainly an authoritarian. admires people who are

dictators. he has said that. so he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure. >> if he was left to his own devices, would he be a dictator if he didn't have people around him? >> oh, i think he'd love to be just like he was in business. he could tell people to do things and they would do it. and not really bother too much about whether what the legalities were and whatnot. >> kelly, held the position of chief of staff, longer than anyone in the trump administration. he called the former president's recent comments about possibly using the military on american citizens disturbing. adding the remarks prompted him to speak out. >> and i think this issue of using the military on -- to go after american citizens is one

of those things i think is very very bad thing. even to say it for political purposes to get elected. i think it's a very, very bad thick. let alone actually doing it. he's certainly the only president that has all but rejected what america is all about. and what makes america america. in terms of our constitution, in terms of our values, the way we look at everything, to include family and government. he certainly is the only president i know of certainly in my life time, that was like that. >> kelly, also said trump, quote, never accepted the fact that he wasn't the most powerful man in the world. and by power, i mean an ability to do anything he wanted any time he wanted. kelly confirmed previous reports that the former president spoke

positively of hitler. >> he commented more than once that, you know, hitler did some good things too. and of course, if you know history, again, i think he's lacking in that, but if you know what hitler was all about, you would be pretty hard to make an argument that he did anything good. >> trump campaign spokesperson said in a statement that kelly totally beclowned himself by recounting debunked stories about the trump administration should remind everybody that the chief of staff is about as close as it gets to the president. and this is a respected retired general. >> well, imagine talking about a american general that way. i don't know who the spokesperson was. so i would say that of anybody, democratic or republican or independent attacking a man who has committed his life to the united states military,

protecting america. >> lost his son. >> lost his son who gave his life to protect america. word beclowned -- these aren't debunked story. admiral stavridis, i don't know where to begin here. so, let me -- why don't we just begin at the beginning. >> yes. >> start at the very beginning. one of the reasons that the general said he had to come out when donald trump started saying -- and let us say he continues to say -- that he's going to use the united states military against his political enemies. he's going to use the united states military against his political opponents. first of all, please tell us again what an absolute breach this is, not only from american history, but the american constitution, from everything

that you have fought for and have given your entire life for in defending this constitution. >> thanks, joe. let's really go back to the beginning. i met john kelly when we were in our 20s and serving together on an aircraft carrier, forward deployed to the middle east. i have known john kelly since 1979. i watched his children grow up, two of his sons became marine officers. never forget, he is a gold star father. his son died under my command in afghanistan on the 9th of november in 2010. 2009. so i've known john kelly forever. i just want to start by saying he is as truthful, as honest, as genuine and as authentic as anyone i have ever met. he's also, as you say, a four-star general. that means throughout the course of his career, joe, again and

again he raised his right hand and swore an oath not to the president of the united states, the commander in chief, he swore that oath like every military member does to the constitution of the united states. i solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies foreign and domestic. let's bring it home. what is an enemy to the constitution? someone who wants to take control, take power and use it to disassemble our democracy. that's the threat john kelly was describing so well and so authentically and so honestly in these superb article by michael. >> so michael schmidt, let's get into more detail about what john kelly told you and how troubled in your conversation you thought he really was, why he felt he

needed to step forward. he talked about fascism. he talked about trump governing like a dictator. he talked about his i finty for adolph hitler. loyalty above the constitution. he talked about donald trump just not understanding fundamental american values. what was exceptional to you? what stood out? we heard criticism from general kelly of donald trump before. but what stood out to you this time? >> i think the most important thing about it was the fact that we could hear the audio. i think that as reporters we run into different obstacles in terms of telling a story. and when we think that there's an important story, we have to continue to look for new and different ways to tell it. and i think the most important thing here is that you can hear kelly himself, in his own word, expressing it. and people can hear it for themselves. i think, to your point, a lot has been written about kelly. a lot has been written about his relationship with trump, about what he has seen.

but i thought that the most important thing was to capture him actually saying that. and that was not logistically that wasn't a hard thing to do. but to get kelly to that point was, you know, a very, very hard thing to do. and something that took, you know -- in some ways it took many years. this is not what john kelly wants to be doing. john kelly wants to be going to talk to young marines, to talk to college students about the united states, about service. he wants to be going to see gold star families in vfw halls. john kelly is not someone on television or someone you'll see on the campaign trail or not someone that's easy to find. he's off doing those types of things. and i thought that, you know, he -- i didn't think that john kelly was going to sit down and go on television. i didn't think that john kelly

was going to allow a camera near him. he certainly wasn't going to go on the campaign trail to do this. so trying to get him to talk in a way that was more than just text i thought was really important here. text is important. it's the bases of what we do as reporters. but i thought we needed to look for another way to communicate his story and what he had to say. and that's why we put so much of the audio out. >> certainly, you know we've seen over the past, mika, over the past eight years donald trump praising one autocrat after another. >> right. >> we've seen him praise president xi. we have seen him praising president putin. we've seen him praising kim jong-un, talking about love letters. and now we hear about this praise for hitler, from again,

donald trump's longest-serving chief of staff. and talking about hitler's generals. we also -- and by the way, just show how wasn't political at all, 26 years before donald trump ran, vanity fair had an article in 1990, 26 years -- so this is politics aside. no politics. 1990, where i vanna trump talked to her lawyer about how donald trump would keep speeches of hitler by his bedside. and would read them. and so that's bizarre enough. but you keep hearing and we saw it out -- we're going to talk about it with jeffrey goldberg from "the atlantic" the obsession with hitler and hitler's generals. again, it's just -- it fits a

pattern. and you would think, though, that at some point there would be one thing -- and hitler seems would be a pretty good line in the sand to draw that republicans wouldn't reflex i have reflexively defend him, if you were watching cnn last night, you actually heard a republican, former congressman, defending donald trump by saying, again, it's this false equivalency that we have been talking about in the media for a very long time. this one takes the cake. context so this. and also there are a lot of -- his words -- a lot of hitlers running around college campuses. i'm not aware -- >> no way. >> of any staff member, any professor, any administrator who killed 6 million jews or started a war that killed 150, 200

million people. again, the grotesque fawning and rationalizing for a man who is promising in his words to be an autocrat. to arrest -- i'm sorry. it's really just hard to grasp, adam. promising everyday to arrest his political opponents, everyday to arrest his political opponents. with the military. again, it's hard to grasp and yet republicans continue to go along for the ride. >> yeah. you know, i think one of the features of -- distinct features of the united states compared to other countries is we don't necessarily think in historical materials. we're a country that lives in the present, thinks about the future. a lot of other countries are obsessed with their past. when i was growing up, one

element of history that all americans, including children, quote repeatedly is hitler bad. if americans don't know anything else about history, hitler bad is a pretty universal article of faith. that message has really broken through even americans who are not interested in history, don't read history books. hitler bad very well firmly established foundation of the american mind. and so now a former american president trying to be an american president again is trying to run on hitler good. i think what john kelly did with mike's admirable reporting, only he could do this, is the opposite of gaslighting. right? john kelly is not the first person to call donald trump a fascist. it's been said many times on this show. it's been said on other shows. it's been said by many courageous writers and some people going back years. but when it's the former chief

of staff to that person, when it's someone with that kind of military record that the admirable described, when it's not an activist on campus, when it's someone who chose after that career in the military to work for donald trump and try to implement his plans with whatever discomfort he harbored all along, it should be taken seriously. it should be a validation of some of the things that ore people have been saying. and it should be a reminder, i think, particularly to those people who are most stubbornly in this kind of fascist catch right now, that if a person with john kelly's mind and training and history of service and up close proximity to donald trump is saying he is a fascist, he is an authoritarian and has vision around this and he loves himself some hitler, he thinks hitler good, that should be taken seriously by people who won't

take me seriously or activists seriously or anybody else. take john kelly seriously if you don't take us seriously. >> right. well, part of this deadly serious, deeply dangerous play book, we have already seen. to your point, joe, donald trump's repeated praise for autocrats, kim jong-un, putin, he actually backed that up with visual events with them during his presidency where people could see him connecting with them and buddying up to them in a way turning americans almost toward our enemies all the work that has been done over decades. >> mika, i say the vanderbilt survey of maga supporters, who is a better president, vladimir putin or joe biden? among self-described trump

voters, 54% chose putin, 18% chose joe biden. >> then you see the same thing happening with january 6th, jonathan lemire, actually changing america's sentiment, toward an insurrection a day of love. he wants to pardon the insurrectionists. there's a convict choir, support an event to support the families of those convicted for raging on the capitol and threatening the lives of mike pence and nancy pelosi and defecating on the walls and floors of the capitol. he is repeatedly trying to change american's sentiment about it. and i see it happening, especially in tv news networks that bend to his will and have millions of viewers and influence over these viewers, i worry will be at a point a good

part of the public, he bar dons those folks. it's not going to matter to people. and it's exactly what is happening with this enemies from within narrative that he is repeating over and other again. also, putting out crazy distractions, jokes, weird comments you don't really know he's serious. he's serious. this is a predicate for action that people can't comprehend. and jonathan lemire, my point to you because you wrote the big lie, is here we are at a moment where it's very hard to explain to people what they simply cannot comprehend. >> trump spent four years in office cozying up to strong men and spent four years out of office trying to normalize what happened on january 6th, trying to take the impact out of that day, to try to almost lean into it was an event that we would see under fascist rule, who use violence to maintain their grip

on power. that is something that he has made very clear, not just telegraphing, he's plainly saying, would be part of a second trump term. and that's whykaty, why general kelly's comments are reluctant. he didn't want to have to do this. there's been criticism of some of the other generals who used to work for trump, why aren't you out there putting your name to it? mark milley, hasn't gotten in front of a camera and said this is a problem. he could be a fascist. i don't belief in our democracy if he's president again. and these comments from kelly, you know, they're important because of the un-american nature he's saying that donald trump displayed. but they're also important because they come 13 days from election. and we should notover look the political aspect of this. do comments like this from kelly, are they going to move any mind at all? >> at this point i spent the last few days going around

pennsylvania and talking to voters and going on doorstopers and i don't know that any singular event moves the needle very much. does it get incrementally a few people out to vote who may have been reluctant to vote, possibly. it's incredibly hard to measure. i think you're right the degree to which donald trump has normalized january 6th the last four years has been remarkable things in a remarkable political period. mike, i want to ask you about earlier before the show started you and i were talking about the idea of guardrails and the individual. and one of the questions i noticed that you ask him is being a dictator, if he was left to his own devices would he like to be a dictator. and john kelly said to you, yeah, i think he would love to be, just as he is in business. that's the question many people have. the differences are still there or have held or did hold after '20 and even after january 6th. there was a transfer of power.

do people feel those devices, the guardrails against him are still in place in 2024 in the way they were in 2020? >> i think there's sort of like two different types of guardrails. so, there's the guardrails directly around the president. and those are the people like aides like kelly, who try and keep him on the tracks on a day-to-day basis. and i think the administration largely fell into sort of two different period of time. there is the first two years when kelly is there and then there's the two years after kelly is there. the first two years are far from textbook, well-run, you know, years. but there is a different tone to them to trump's unshackled behavior that you see in the final two years. particularly in the final two months. so there's that first ring around the president that's sort of managing and dealing with the president on a day-to-day basis.

john kelly and people like don mcgahn will not be there in a second trump presidency. those types of people will be nowhere near the white house. there will be people who are much more enablersenablers. trump will be able to proactively use his power he may have been shy in the two years or final two months of his presidency. the second layer is the system. the three branchs. and we saw a lot of tests of the guardrails around trump in that inner circle around trump in the white house. and a lot of the stories that are about trump and what happens in the trump administration are trump in the white house, those aides, those tensions, all these anecdotes that we know over the years about john kelly. what we saw less of is trump versus the three branchs. yes, he was impeached twice. yes, the courts knocked down a

lot of stuff that he did. but what would happen if there was truly a clash between the three branchs? if the judicial branch said, no, you can't do that. trump said i'm going to go ahead and do it any way. how is the judicial branch going to enforce the fact that that decision is followed through on? in this country, many if not all times that the judicial branch makes a decision, people accept it and go along with it. they simply accept it. the u.s. marshals are not often knocking on your door because the executive branch's door to enforce something. but that's what i think would be different is that because there wouldn't be that first inner layer, you would see the test of the three branchs in a different way. and if trump tries to rule like an autocrat and dictator and a fascist, like kelly said that he would like to. you would see that play out in a more dramatic different way that that is something that's

different. and that's different than just some aides in the white house trying to make sure that he doesn't tweet something stupid. >> so admiral, let's extend michael's point out to the military. >> sure. >> and talk about what might come up. it's rare, as you know, generals try to stay out of politics. now we have general kelly on the record. we heard from general mille-y recently and bob woodward donald trump being a threat, a fascist. those guys will not be there if donald trump is re-elected. if you have some of the characters that donald trump would like to install in his government, what will they do? in the military from that side of things if presented with a scenario where donald trump says, you need to go into the streets and put down that rioter. i need you to go arrest this person. all the things donald trump is talking about openly and repeatedly, what is the duty first of all? but what might those people put in the jobs because of their loyalty to donald trump, what might they do?

>> right question to ask. i worry a lot about that. and by the way, to your point about others who have spoken out, general stan mccrystal, admiral bill mcraven, there are ore voices out here in that retired flag community. i think inside on active duty, as i said before, i continue to believe the u.s. military will hue to the constitution of the united states. every member of the military, all volunteers, have stood and taken that oath again and again and again. i watched pleb-es, do it. it's moving. you do it again and again and again, it is woven into the dna of the military. and you just would have to reach so deep into the military i think it would be very difficult

to find u.s. military general or admiral who would be willing to go back up the arrest of a former political opponent. it's just unthinkable to me. and, yes, the counter to that would be, well, you know admiral, it was probably unthinkable in hitler's germany in 1939 or in many other countries. it has happened. i like to think our u.s. military would stand and deliver in those circumstance. i truly believe they would. but to the conversation we're having this morning, it bears deep watching. storm warnings out there. >> and yet, unfortunately, admiral, so many have grown up and are now kowtowing to donald trump. "the wall street journal" just

two days ago mock what had they called, quote, the fascist meme and they mocked it after donald trump has been promising for days to use the national guard and the military and kept calling nancy pelosi and adam schiff the enemies from within. as if he was going to do what america did in the war on terror and arrest people. not have article 3 courts beyond article 3 courts jurisdiction. and let's go through this. the fascist meme, two days after saying that, a general who served as donald trump's longest-serving chief of staff, said yes. he's a fascist. "wall street journal" opinion page might want to revisit this sneer while donald trump's saying these things and his chief of staff and the general is saying this. but, donald trump has promised other the past couple weeks to

arrest matthew pelosi, adam schiff, called them the enemies from within, to go after political opponents, to go after people in the media, to takes cbs off the air because he didn't like his "60 minutes" interview. he talked about trying comcast for treason. he talked about taking abc off the air. he talked about all of these things. let me ask you, do you agree with general kelly that saying that donald trump is behaving like a fascist, is talking like a fascist, should be believed to rule like a fascist, is that a meme or is that something that everybody, including those people who write editorials at

"the wall street journal" should be deeply concerned about for themselves. this is more than an election to see who the next president is. this is an election to determine the future fate of what form of government we have and if madisonian democracy survives. >> john kelly, honest, true, genuine, has spent more time around donald trump one on one than almost anybody else during that presidential period. i take great faith in what he says and his judgments. and i agree with him. i also -- even though it's on background with a number of other sources, mark milley, another very senior officer, like john kelly, a bostonian, honest, true, genuine, looks like a bouncer in a bar in boston went to princeton, he on background has said that trump

is a fascist to his core. that's the quote in the most recent book. so, i repose a lot of trust in those officers, both of whom i know intimately and i am very worried. final thought, this is not only playing in this arena here in the united states, katty kay would tell you this is echoing enormously in europe. i spent time yesterday with a group of very senior koreans. this is echoing around the world what is happening. the world's eyes are on us. and final thought, perhaps the most chilling thing in a worrisome conversation this morning was the percentage of americans you quoted who believed that these authoritarian figures are the answer. in some sense, the real concern is not just donald trump. it's who we are as a country. the world is watching.

this is the most important election of my life time. >> yeah. i mean, this is what kamala harris meant when she was reaching out to the 800,000 polish americans who live in mostly northeastern pennsylvania, 5% of pennsylvania's vote. there's a volunteer effort under way to get polish americans to vote because they step up because they have a shared history with ukraine and with countries that have been stricken in a way that perhaps americans cannot comprehend. >> and that your father, mother comprehended well because they had to flee. >> right. >> political persecution in 1938. >> that's right. retired four star -- >> it's not a meme. >> it's not a meme. >> it's not a meme. >> and admiral, when you have -- let's just break this down. more republicans who still -- and people who are numbed by the

talk. you have donald trump's longest-serving chief of staff, general kelly, saying donald trump is a fascist. and you have donald trump's last chairman of the joint chiefs saying that donald trump is, quote, a fascist to his core. that doesn't sound like a meme to you, does it, admiral? >> that's the least memish thing i've heard in a long time. this is very real. >> retired four star navy admiral james staphee dis, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> thank you, admiral. and "new york times" investigative reporter, michael schmidt, incredible reporting. thank you for very much for bringing it to us. we'll be joined by "the atlantic's" editor in chief, jeffrey goldberg on the heels of his own interview with retired general john kelly. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in just 90 seconds. b.

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take control of your uc. ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. i am a capitalist. i am a pragmatic capitalist. i believe that we need a new generation of leadership in america that actively works with the private sector to bill up the new industries of america, to build up small business

owners, to allow us to increase homeownership, to allow people and their families to build intergenerational wealth. i believe insupporting workers. >> vice president kamala harris speaking telemundo. the interview is part of a latino mia blitz. the harris campaign recently announced which also includes radio interviews with running mate tim walz and second gentleman doug emhoff. >> katty, we heard time and time again donald trump talking to spanish-speaking audiences or having ads talking about claug being a socialist, biden being a socialist. it's exhausting. yesterday the imf reporting the united states leading the world. its economy the envy of the world. we've talked about this before. but the dow at record highs. the s&p 500 at record highs.

the united states is taking more oil from the ground this year, produced more oil than any country ever. we have got a $26 trillion gdp. nobody else is remotely close. california has a larger gdp than all but four countries on the planet. texas has a larger gdp than russia. i could go on and on. the jobs numbers unbelievably great other the past several years. gas prices plummeting, interest rates going down. and kamala harris, what she's talking about, she's not talking about five-year plans. she's talking about tax cuts for small businesses for entrepreneurs, for first-time home buyers, the sort of thing that lifts up the middle class and actually grows capitalism. >> yeah. i mean, not terribly socialist, right? and yet, there is this sense and i think it dates back a few

years particularly to some of the newer hispanic immigrants who have come in from countries like venezuela where they have seen socialism and any kind of accusational prospect could be a socialist in this country does resonate. why was florida so firmly in the trench against donald trump. one of the things that's been puzzling the last four years since joe biden took back the white house, you listen to donald trump in office. and i remember speaking to republican pollsters about this, what are the things that resonated, the way he railed against political correctness and the way he talked about my stock market and how strong the stock market was. i know for democrats perhaps they feel it is elitist to talk how the stock market is doing well. plays to the haves and have

notes. but there is confidence inspiring that spreads throughout the economy or republic when you keep reminding people, like the kind of stock market is a symbol of how well the american economy is doing. maybe there is something there. reminding americans of exactly what you just said, joe, time and again. every single day, how well the united states economy is doing. it's not just the imf saying, everyone is looking at america with envy saying we want that. >> we heard a couple interviews including one with hallie jackson yesterday from vice president harris. you've been talking for a long time about democrats needing to tell a story. here we are withless than two weeks until election day, kamala harris is telling a two-track story, one about the opportunities she wants to create for americans and also about the dangers of the other path, of going back to donald trump. is that the effective tactic here as we bear down on election day? >> yeah. i think it's important to understand in a larger context

why she's doing some of those things. part is the inoculation of the socialism charge. but there's something deeper going on that they are trying to take on. which is men. which is american men right now, a majority of american men are supporting to our last segment american fascism. and i think there is a -- beneath the labels of socialism and capitalism and everything else, there is a deep problem in american -- many american men's sense of themselves, fear of the future, sense that they don't quite know who they will be and how they will provide for their families and their communities in the fup that's coming. i think a lot of these fears have been manufactured by places like fox news. housing prices, food prices,

thicks like that. what you're seeing the vice president do is answer some of that. you'll be able to create wealth. you'll be able to start a business. all of that is great. i think what it doesn't quite do that she still has and tim walz has the opportunity to do in the next two weeks is speak to millions of american men at that deeper guttural level. again, going back to the last conversation. it doesn't so much matter that donald trump is selling fascism. what really matters is that roughly half of americans, including a clear majority of american men, are buying it. the buy side is much more scary than the sell side right now. and we all focus on deploring the sale of it. but the real problem is the buying of it. people should be rejecting this, not most men, the average american man is saying yes to fascism right now. why? so i think she needs to understand, as i'm sure her team does. the future feels to a lot of men, a lot of people in general,

like kind of pair of jeans that doesn't quite fit. and you have to speak to people not just in terms of economic policy, if that's the case. you have to say, hey, i see you and i recognize you and i understand the future feels bewildering. you don't know what to say or you don't quite how you're going to protect your family, real men don't outsource the protection of their family to dictators. real men don't turn to fascists to solve their problems. men need to be invited into an aspirational picture, an aspirational story of a progress that has a place for them, too. >> very well said. thank you very much for coming on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," it's been two decade since the boston red sox completed one of the greatest comebacks in baseball history, on route to their first world series title in 86 years.

we're going to be joined by the barnacle boys who produced a new d-ocu-series about the 2004 championship run. that is next on "morning joe." that is next on "morning joe."

it's our son, he is always up in our business. it's the verizon 5g home internet i got us. oh... he used to be a competitive gamer but with the higher lag, he can't keep up with his squad. so now we're his “squad”. what are kevin's plans for the fall? he's going to college. out of state, yeah. -yeah in the fall. change of plans, i've decided to stay local. oh excellent! oh that's great! why would i ever leave this? -aw! we will do anything to get him gaming again. you and kevin need to fix this internet situation. heard my name! i swear to god, kevin! -we told you to wait in the car. everyone in my old squad has xfinity. less lag, better gaming! i'm gonna need to charge you for three people.

boston fans, they don't know what it's like to be on a winning club. >> dropped by damon.

>> sending the yankees to the world series. >> really? we are just going to be another in the long line of teams that fall short? >> that curse was just lingering. >> we hadn't won. the only way to make it go away is to finally win. >> the red sox decided to compete player for player, dollar for dollar. >> let's go. from that point on i got hot. >> david ortiz. >> cowboy up, son. >> that's us, just a bunch of goofballs. >> the yankees are clean shaven, good looking, rich. >> we have a bloody sock. >> it was a nightmare. >> yankees have pounded their way three games to none lied in this acls. >> no team has ever come back from a 3-0 deficit. you're going to tell me the red sox are going to do it to the yankees? >> wow. that was a look at the new netflix documentary "the come back" 2004 boston red sox. it's extraordinary. it goes behind the scenes with a

team that staged the greatest comeback in baseball history erase ago 3-0 deficit in the 2004 american league championship against their arch rival new york yankees and then sweeping the st. louis cardinals in the fall classic to break boston's 86-year world series title drought. it was nothing short of extraordinary. my son and i watched this a couple of nights ago and between cheering for plays that were performed 20 years ago and wiping tears from our eyes repeatedly, it was -- it was just an extraordinary story, not just of baseball, but of just love between teammates, heartbreak and just unimaginable joy. let's bring in now the emmy award winning creators of "the comeback" director and executive producer colin barnicle, executive producer nick barnicle. also with us proud father mike

barnicle. colin, if you could, just for people -- your boys done good, mike. >> thanks. >> just for those people, colin, that may not know just the massive history behind what happened 20 years ago and also just to repeat it, one more time for willie geist and other yankee fans, what exactly happened in 2004 that is the center of this documentary? >> so the documentary is really about how the red sox were able to change their culture from eight decades of losing to, you know, coming back from three down versus the yankees, which nobody had done before and for all intents and purposes no red sox fan remembers -- mike is not that old, you weren't born -- >> i'm close. >> you're close. >> won the world series in 1918. so it's about how you change the culture of an organization to

become winners, you know, kind of the what it takes. you know, how you get down 3-0 and you have the confidence that you're going to come back. that's kind of what it's about. you're just following these characters through it. >> nick, i talked to your dad the other night and i said i kind of felt a little foolish watching this documentary because i would see things happening and i would jump out of my chair like it was happening in realtime. there was such an emotional connection. and yelling and cheering because it took you back to 2004 and, of course, moments when they were talking about tim wakefield wiping tears from my eyes. i will say being able to see a man who has really been excluded from red sox nation, you guys talking to him and bringing him back. curt schilling, one of those remarkable pitching performances

ever. it was so great to see all of them back there. talk -- and i know -- mike told me this happened at the premiere, people were jumping and screaming in their seats and yelling and cheering. they were weeping, you could hear crying through the theater at the end. what is it about this documentary and this story that so connects people emotionally? >> well, i will tell you what, we lived it and then we made it and then we watched it sunday night with our friends at the boston red sox up in boston and you still are gripping your chair as nervous as i am right now on television not knowing how it might end. and there are tears, there was laughter and in the end, yes, right here they win this and it was just a tremendous experience making it and it was a tremendous experience reliving it, but it comes down to great teamwork between colin and i and our family and our fantastic production team. but you do have moments of doubt even having made it and lived

it. >> mike, i sat down to watch this excellent series last night and i immediately thought, why am i doing this to myself as a yankee fan? what am i doing to myself? so i flipped over to the knicks game and the celtics were beating the knicks by 40 so i went back and finished it. but the boys did such a great job telling this story from start to finish, and, you know, i had forgotten even the way they went about building this team. big papi was not big papi when they brought him over from the twins, he was a midling guy, was he a defense, dh, he goes on to become this boston icon. also to colin's point about creating a winner, this tension between the old and the new. you have the old school guy in agreed little, the manager who goes on his gut and theo epstein going on data from the billy bean school and totally

revolutionizes that franchise. i'm curious what you thought reliving it as a boston fan. >> the first thing that i'm still reliving sim wondering looking at colin and nick here am i going to be able to get them to school on time this morning. but that's a long time ago. you know, colin and nick just alluded to the red sox mystery of how this happened, how they came back and won three straight. the culture of the red sox was always captured by a quote from a utility player named frank duffy, a stanford graduate who plays for the red sox in the early '90s, he was so abhorred by the uniqueness and selflessness of the players he was playing alongside that he captured the phrase red sox 25 guys, 25 cabs. what happened, i think, in 2003-2004, two elements that are not underplayed in the documentary, but i think people underplay it in their minds. one was the addition to the

roster of kevin millar who was a natural team molder, bringing people together. and the other was the arrival of a new manager, kyoto francona, who was funny, knew a lot of baseball, knew how to deal with players one-on-one individually and as a group. i think that was the core of why the trajectory kept going. >> you know what was to crazy, i always remember, of course, i was -- because of a back injury i was laid up on my back and wasn't able to be there, but you were kind enough to call me every night. i remember after we were down 3-0 and then won the first game, i remember us calling each other and both of us just had this really strange sense of confidence down 3-1. it's like millar saying -- and, by the way, millar, such a star here. he's incredible. but millar over and over again going -- saying to dan

shaughnessy and everybody else, don't let us win tonight, down 3-0, don't let us win tonight. you see it in the documentary. he goes, if you let us win tonight you're going to be sorry. and it's weird, even you and me talking back and forth every day, we had a sense of confidence after that first win going, man, anything is possible. they believed that they could do something no other team in over a century had ever done, didn't they? >> yeah, they did. they did. that was another amazing element of it. kevin kilar pumping his fist in his glove talking to dan shaughnessy saying you let us win tonight, we have pedro tomorrow, you never know. game seven. let's go, we're going to win this thing and they d amazing. >> it's 20 years later and i still can't believe that it happened. 2004 red sox the team that changed my life, changed my family's life, changed everyone in the region's life, it can't be overstated. i always thought part of why this could happen is because of

some of the personalities on the team. kevin millar for sure, but other guys who simply by their own admission, the idiots who didn't give into the pressure of boston and the pressure of 86 years, johnny damon, manny ramirez, david ortiz. talk to us as you visit these characters, talk to us of the role of character how it led them to have a comeback like this. >> a lot of it is these characters working through self-doubt, you know? john henry paid three quarters of a billion dollars for the red sox and he hired a 28-year-old kid who lived down the street with two other guys, you know? it wasn't exactly -- he wasn't uber confident in that. he knew theo was very smart, analytically driven. you know, theo working through his own self-doubt of having to be -- he is from boston, he knows the stakes, i think the way he put it to us is when things are going good good and you are the gm, it's alive,

electric and when you're not doing well it's like a six month death march, it's awful. so working through the self-doubt. kevin millar, he's going to japan, he is out of baseball, his career is over in major league baseball. david ortiz is a scrap heap guy, released, you know? these kind of characters coming together and saying like in a way this is our -- almost our chance here. some of us are at the beginning of journey, some of us are toward the end, but this is our chance to come together. we've got to do something different here. we've got to put together a clubhouse and, you know, our old man knows, boston can be a pressure cooker, you know, and a lot of those teams, the downward pressure on them, the clubhouse was about the size of this table, you know, there's 40 media members in there. it's hard not to break apart. kevin millar had a lot to do with kind of making that a walled garden where we're good in here, we're safe, we can be who we are. he and theo and john henry,

those three elements of just kind of allowing your character to come out and going through it personally is one of the things we were trying to achieve and, you know, it's not -- it's not hard to make a good documentary when you have david ortiz, kevin millar, derek lowe, i mean, these guys are great talkers, very funny and great story tellers. >> just incredible. i learned so much about the red sox. i thought i knew everything about them. one thing i learned, i know the idea that theo and sam kennedy grew up together and everything, but it was so tight knit, such a family. i want to talk about culture because i obsess on culture, nick, all the time a culture of teams, culture of businesses, it's such a predictor of success. and for the red sox, you know, mike was talking about 25 players, 25 cabs. for the red sox the first thing they have to do is get rid of their superstar nomar who is a

good for many red sox fans but he was clubhouse poison, they had to get rid of him. suddenly you guys tell the story one guy goes out to eat, then it's two guys going out to eat, then it's five guys, then it's ten. then every night the whole team is going out, they're eating together, talking together, living together. and, man, you see that when their backs are against the wall and they're fighting over a century of history, don't you? >> well, and, joe, you know, jonathan, mike, colin, mike, dad, you guys know that there is a huge change in culture from the previous ownership group to the new ownership group. john henry, tom werner and larry luccino, empowering theo epstein to be able to make the moves he had to make. 28 at the time, he has nomar at the time, noma as we say in the

doc, he decides we have to get rid of him and deals him and the deal does not come through as something that's spectacular, you know, it's mancavich and cabrera and it becomes a nerve-racking thing for theo. even jed hoyer, deputy at the time and was in the doc, fantastic, says we don't know if this is a bottoms up trade or if this is going to work out and it ends up working out. >> 25 guys going to a restaurant, i'm sure they were going to a restaurant, not a bar. big reservations. >> the new three-part docuseries "the comeback" 2004 boston red sox is streaming right now on netflix. director and executive producer colin barnicle and executive producer nick barnicle, thank you both. weird to say that because we've known them for 18 years. okay, boys -- >> extraordinary guys.

>> how did we ever get on this show? >> i don't know, actually. it ends now. >> they did something great. we're going to get to our news now. we're hearing now from trump's longest serving chief of staff, retired general john kelly, issuing dire warnings about his former boss. this is the big news of the morning. in taped conversations with "new york times" investigative reporter michael schmidt kelly said the former president meets the definition of a fascist, and talked about trump calling american service members suckers and losers. >> certainly the former president is in the far right area, he's certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators. he has said that. so he certainly falls into the

general definition of a fascist, for sure. >> but he basically said to you that those who die for america on the battlefield were losers and suckers, and he said it more than once? >> yes. but he not -- but he would say -- it would always be something else to get him off. it was almost like a record. but the point is any waist he would say at times, sometimes unexpectedly, but he never could wrap his arms around why people would serve the country in uniform. what was in it for them? that was the general theme. >> does he have disdain for the disabled? >> certainly his -- his not wanting to be seen with amputees, amputees that lost their limbs in defense of this country, fighting for every american to -- him included -- to protect them, didn't want to be seen with them.

that's -- that's an interesting perspective for the commander in chief to have. >> why didn't he want to be seen with them? >> he would just say, look, it doesn't look good for me. >> kelly is a retired general, as we said. he held the position of chief of staff longer than anyone in the trump administration. he was also asked about trump's understanding of the constitution. >> and did -- did the former president appreciate the constitution? did he appreciate any of these things? >> no. he -- it was fascinating, he doesn't know a lot about, you know, american history and certainly as a -- as i guess a former executive in his civilian world, you know, you -- i guess you can be a dictator because you can fire people pretty easily and the only thing theoretically that you have to follow was the law, but then

again, an awful lot of people break the law and expect subordinates to break the law, subvert the law somehow. that's where he was coming from. that was his world view. >> did he expect the people who worked for him to break the law? >> well, when he would give -- and i think i've told this many times -- when he would tell me that he wanted to do something, 100% of the time i'd check with the -- with white house counsel because oftentimes he wouldn't have the authority to do what he wanted to do. >> i'm not recommending anything to anybody, i'm just saying other than that when you're looking to vote for someone, regardless, you've got to -- you've got to look at the character and all of those kind of things, and then start looking at the individual's policies. we can always, you know -- even

if you are a conservative republican, you know, much of what's gone on in the last three and a half years hasn't been what you wanted to have happen to your country, but, you know, we can get by it because you might have, you know, a republican come in in the future. but if a person's character isn't at least minimally acceptable, then i think that person can do a lot more damage. >> that is four-star general john kelly speaking on tape to michael schmidt of the "new york times." kelly also spoke to "the atlantic's" editor in chief jeffrey goldberg for a new profile of donald trump that outlines what goldberg calls the former president deepening preoccupation with dictators and disdain for the military. it goats trump as once saying i need the kind of generals that hitler had. trump adding, people were totally loyal to him, they'd follow orders.

trump made the remark during a private conversation in the white house according to two people who overheard the comment. goldberg asked retired general kelly this week about trump's remarks concerning german generals. kelly told goldberg when trump raised the subject he responded by asking do you mean bismarck's generals. kelly said i knew he didn't know who bismarck are. i said do you mean the kaiser's generals? certainly you can't mean hitler's generals and he said, yeah, yeah hitler's generals quoting trump there. kelly explained to goldberg that rammel had to commit sue i had after taking place in a plot against hitler. kelly said trump was not a kwanlted with rommel. let's bring in jeffrey goldberg and ann applebaum. jeffrey, extraordinary stuff from general kelly combined with what he told mike schmidt on

tape for "the new york times." there's been criticism from general kelly of donald trump, not this direct and perhaps not so direct about his praise for hitler and wanting his generals to be loyal to him the way hitler's generals were, of course, not knowing the history of the repeated plots against hitler by his own military. what stood out to you in your conversation? >> well, it's just that. it's the -- it's the comprehensive ignorance, i think, of history. look, we don't expect presidents to be historians, they have -- but they have to be aware of what's happened before them and they have to be aware of broad trends, geopolitical trends, historical trends, but i think donald trump lived in a kind of vacuum of his own making in which he would -- he would take little snippets of information that he has heard and turn them into full narratives about the way the world worked. what really struck me the most and we've been talking about this for years now is the complete lack of a learning

curve on the part of the former president. in other words, john kelly, marine general, chief of staff, says, you know, hitler's generals tried to kill him multiple times, and he said -- and donald trump said, no, they didn't. so it's -- you can live in a bubble of your own creation. now, that's fine for a lot of people, but it's not fine for president of the united states. obviously the other piece of this to me and, again, i've been reporting on this for years, is his very strange disdain for service people, particularly those who were captured, going back to john mccain and even george h.w. bush who he called a loser for being shot down by the japanese in world war ii. the disdain and the disdain, as you note before, for people who are wounded in combat. multiple examples in my story of that, of his desire to have big

military parades but without amputees because as you reported they make him look bad. i mean, there is a whole range of things here. we've been talking about these things for a while. this is more and more evidence to suggest that he has a very, very dysfunctional relationship with the ideas that animate u.s. military service. >> jeff, it's interesting that john kelly is speaking to you, speaking to mike schmidt now, so soon and close to the election. did you get a sense from him in your interviews about what he thinks a second trump term might look like and what would be different in terms of the guardrails that we were talking about earlier in a second term? >> that's a very good question and we've heard this not only from john kelly, but essentially if you talk to anyone, any one of the so-called grown-ups who served in the first administration, they understand that the guardrails are going to be down. you know, our colleague at "the

atlantic" david frum said that the issue with the next trump term, theoretical next trump term is that the we will os raptors have learned how to turn the door handles which is a vivid description of what to happen. in other words, last time let's say the authoritarian impulses that a lot of people around trump believe he has, john kelly said this, obviously quoted to jim woodward, mark milley, john mattis, you know, they believe that he has authoritarian impulses but what we saw in the first term was a lack of ability or will or hard work to make those changes in the government, make those changes in america that he wanted to, but now combine the fact that he won't hire people like jim mattis, rex tillerson, h.r. mcmaster, john kelly, he's promised not to hire people like that, people with broad experience and intellectual capacity, he's

promised not to hire them and they figured out where they went wrong let's say on the immigration issues, for instance. i think that all of this group, including john bolton, the former national security adviser, no softy obviously on a whole bunch of issues, believed that it could be a much more dangerous administration because he has a better sense -- or the people around him have a better sense of what he wants to do or what he can achieve using the right mechanisms. >> ann, i think back reading your works, reading your books, reading your warnings about the twilight of democracy. >> yeah. >> many people talked about catastrophizing this past week as i've said on this show since monday the "wall street journal" mocked the, quote, fascist meme, mocked the atlantic, mocked other people who had been raising these concerns and yet you now have the former president's longest serving

chief of staff saying he's a fascist. you have the former president's chairman of the joint chiefs saying that donald trump was fascist. you have donald trump saying over the past week he's going to arrest his political opponents, that they are enemies of the state. nancy pelosi, adam schiff, he said he wants to hit down cbs because he didn't like how they edited an interview. he's also threatened comcast, he's threatened, abc, he's threatened everybody who stands in his way. and yet so many people i talk to are just numb. they're not listening. >> can't comprehend. >> i talk to some of the most highly educated people and they'll say, are you concerned about donald trump? talking about using the military against his political opponents. oh, i didn't hear that. and then you play the quote for them or you show them the quote, they go, oh, he doesn't mean that. i'm sorry, but is this how it happens here? is this how it happens here?

>> so first let me say about the "wall street journal" article, it was particularly dismissive of an article that i wrote in "the atlantic". >> right. >> and that article was really just a list, i quoted some things that trump said and i compared them to things that had been said by other dictators, mostly in the 1930s and '40s, not just hitler, actually, but stalin, the east german stazzi, all of them talked about their enemies as vermin, they used the language as parasites, we need to eliminate these people from public life. this language about they're poisoning the blood of the nation. that's directly from hitler. i went back and looked up the quotes and found them and so on. the "wall street journal" response was one that i've heard from others which was, first of all, he can't possibly mean it. that can't possibly be true. but also look how terrible kamala is.

look how bad the democrats are. you know, you say -- and it's almost -- there is actually a polish expression which is -- and the word is symetrism. immediately we have to find something that's just as bad. i think this is a way of people saying i'm going to vote for this guy for whatever reasons because i think he's going to lower taxes or he is in my political camp and i need a reason to do it and so i'm going to -- and the reason i'm going to give you is that, as i said, harris is just as bad or it's a joke. they can't take it seriously because if they did it says something very ugly about them. and i think that's -- i think that's the stage that we're at now. >>.lynn, we brought you up when i was reading the "wall street journal" editorial, i said this must be some left wing writer from "the atlantic" that came over from the nation and was in the young marxist club growing up. i said, no, it's actually ann

applebaum who spent her entire life researching and detailing the crimes of stalin, the crimes of the soviet union, pushing back against the soviet union when they were still in existence, pushing back against autocrats who would undermine the western democracy, western culture, western freedom. anne, that's what's so shock to go me. not like they are attacking a long-time political foe, they're attacking somebody who has actually dedicated her life to the very things that they once stood for. >> that's very kind of you to say. i did used to write for the "wall street journal" editorial page in living memory. >> so attacking one of their own. exactly. but continue. you know, i've read it every morning. i mean, it's the first place i go and i read it every morning and to see this happening, this

whataboutism the same week you have somebody talking about arresting their political opponents, it's just so heartbreaking that this is where we've come. >> yeah, you know, i also think part of the problem is it's true that people -- when you say trump will be hitler, which is, by the way, not what i said, i just said he's using some of hitler and stalin's language. people imagine nazis or storm troopers or something that seems so incredible and far away from american reality. and that's true, but that's also because they don't have the imagination or maybe the knowledge to know how it is that democracies break down nowadays. nowadays most democracies fail not because of violence or a coup d'etat, but because of a legitimate elected leader comes to power and then begins to dismantle institutions. he puts loyalists in the jobs instead of experts. he politicizes institutions that are supposed to belong to the

whole nation like the military or the department of justice and makes them serve him and his political program. you know, we've seen this happen. it's what happened in hungary, it's what happened in turkey. i saw it happen in poland, it's where i live part of the time as you know and the polish ruling party at that time tried to do this, they went through the steps. they didn't succeed in doing it fully so they eventually lost an election, but it's not as hard as you think to change the rules, to bring in new kinds of people, to use the law against media or against politicians that you don't like, to use the irs against politicians you don't like. there are precedents for it in american history, too, so it's not as if it's absolutely never happened before. i find all of that imminently believable but for people who are going to vote for him because of whatever reason, you know, they need to dismiss it, laugh at it, mock it, you know, tweet it with lol, you know, lol

at the top because they don't want to admit to themselves what it is they're supporting. >> jeffrey, the other piece of your story, remarkable reporting that got a lot of attention when it posted yesterday, was about 20-year-old private vanessa guillen who was murdered and donald trump then president made an offer to help pay for funeral costs only to react with language we can't repeat here on tv when he was told how much it would cost. tell us, if you will, a little more about the story and what else it tells you and could tell all of us about how trump does view those who have at times put their lives on the line in military service for this country. >> yeah, i mean, it's very typical in the sense that the story exhibits his racism because he had -- he used an expletive to describe this soldier who was a mexican american daughter of mexican immigrants.

it shows the parcimony. one of the triggering -- constantly triggering things in his life is the fear that he's being ripped off or robbed. so in a meeting -- so he meets with the family on july 30th, 2020, and he performs fine, he performs well, he's very sympathetic or as sympathetic as he can be to the mother and sisters of this murdered soldier and he offers repeatedly to pay for the funeral. flash forward five months, december 4th, meeting in the white house, national security team, he's reminded of this and he says did they ever send us a bill? he's told, yes. how much was it? $60,000. and then he says, it doesn't cost 60 grand to bury an effing

mexican. you know, i have witnesses to this. i've seen contemporaneous notes of the meeting. people are acting surprised by this. i don't find it particularly surprising because, again, it goes to the things that trigger him, among other things, bills and mexicans. not to put too fine a point on it. so, you know, this is just kind of a classic example. and, you know, by the way, he never did pay. he never did send them money, as best as we can tell. so they're denying it, but, you know, it's just -- it's just yet another of these stories that goes back to suckers and losers and a lot of other -- a lot of other incidents in which he is not dealt in an admirable way with the needs of veterans or the needs of soldiers. >> anne, we just listened to

jeffrey recount just one element in his striking piece in the atlantic from yesterday. you have covered democracy around the world and yet when people hear what jeffrey just said a lot of people listening to this would say, yeah, that's just trump being trump. how do you handle the fact that this country is on the verge, maybe seconds away from donald trump becoming president of the united states again and that this country might be involved in a political, cultural, governmental chernobyl with just change going on, negative change going on? how do you approach that? >> it's funny, i was just in germany and i was asked this very same question more than once by a couple of germans and i just stared at them. i said, you know, how is this

possible that people are going to vote for somebody who is so obviously dislikes democracy and dislikes the rule of law? i said you're asking me that? you know that this has never happened before? we don't know? i mean, you know, what it shows is that americans are not as exceptional as they think, it shows that we, too, are capable of being taken in by this kind of -- it's not just aggressive rhetoric, it's dehumanizing rhetoric. it shows that we're capable of filtering, i mean, as i said, we've already discussed, you know, there are pieces of the story that people want to hear and other pieces they don't want to hear, and that people are capable of justifying it. you know, i suppose it's surprising because we haven't had anyone that i can find in american mainstream presidential politics using this kind of language before, so in that sense he's very different, but if you take a step back and you

look around the world and you look across history, there are a lot of people like him. so it's just -- it's just an illustration of the fact that americans are a lot more like other nations and other moments in history than we like to think. >> this vital new piece is online now for "the atlantic." editor in chief jeffrey goldberg, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you, jeffrey. >> staff writer at "the atlantic" anne applebaum. thank you as well. on sunday anne was awarded the peace prize of the german book trade, the associated press notes it's an award that honors those who have contributed to turning the idea of peace into reality through literature, science and art. and in anne's acceptance speech she discussed the importance of continuing to support ukraine in its fight against russian aggression, the invasion.

so congratulations to you, anne, on that well-deserved honor. >> congratulations, anne. >> thank you. and still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> that's amazing. that's wonderful. >> it really is. >> so well-deserved. >> framing everything that matters. >> -- democratic national committee chair jaime harrison standing by. we will talk to him about the party's effort to mobilize black voters with less than two weeks to go until election day. also ahead joe's sit down interview with jimmy kimmel. what he had to say about his career, his family and the upcoming election. "morning joe" is back in a moment. upcoming election. "morning joe" is back ain moment

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when he's not complaining, he's trying to sell you stuff. have you noticed that? who does that? you're running for president and you're hocking merchandise. gold sneakers, $100,000 watch, supposed to be a swiss watch he says. the best watch. why are you selling a watch? what are you doing? my favorite is the trump bible. true story. true story. it's embossed with his name right on, it donald trump edition, right next to matthew and luke, donald. and i will give you one guess where those bibles are made.

he's mr. tough guy on china, except when it comes to making a few bucks. you cannot make this stuff up. you really can't. if some of this stuff happened on "saturday night live" you would be like, all right, that's going too far. that didn't really happen. but it did. trump bible is made in china. that was former president obama campaigning for vice president harris in madison, wisconsin, yesterday. the first of two rallies the former president headlined in the midwest, the second in detroit, alongside rap superstar eminem stepping out to campaign for vice president harris. joining us now the chairman of the democratic national committee jaime harrison, also with us for the conversation, president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" the reverend al sharpton. chairman, let's talk about the strategy right now, it's been fascinating to watch you all try

to energize the base, make sure the people you need to come out to vote for you do, but also to try to expand a little bit. the events we saw the other day, three across critical swing states with liz cheney speaking to disaffected republicans who can't stomach donald trump and are looking for someplace to land. former congresswoman cheney giving them that permission and that argument and that case about why they should vote for vice president harris. we even see the vice president later this week going to houston, texas, to do a rally, a state even you would concede you would be surprised if she won. let's talk about the big strategy right now as we come down the homestretch. >> well, the big strategy, willie, is to continue to engage the american people to make sure that they understand what is at stake in this election. i just -- i'm kicking off my i will vote tour as we go across the southeast. we launched the tour in florida, we're now in atlanta.

i'm going to be here in georgia all day today and then we will go to south carolina where i will vote early and then head up to battleground north carolina. it's important that we are meeting with the base of the democratic party, we're getting them fired up, making sure that they go out, vote early, or just vote all together. and i'm really, really excited. i had a wonderful black men's round table in jacksonville, florida, with the members of the longshoremen, the iloa which is crucial and important to our maritime industry here in america. it was a great conversation and discussion but we were all collectively on the same page as it relates to making sure that we fight back against this attempt by donald trump to disparage kamala harris. to make sure, particularly as black men, that we stood up to help defend her and her record. her record of accomplishment that donald trump sadly just

doesn't have. >> mr. chairman, i, as you know, have been on this nonpartisan bus tour with central park five and i'm seeing the same reaction and growing enthusiasm that you do, but talk about the contrast in the candidates campaigning. for example, sunday vice president harris did two churches, did an interview with me, went out and talked to people. trump went and did a gimmick at a mcdonald's and basically a list of grievances and then she goes the next day and sits with liz cheney, he goes the next day and threatens anyone that has been political enemies of his. talk about the difference in terms of what they're both campaigning around and their visions that they're offering america. >> well, you know, rev, we just saw a clip about barack obama and talking about donald trump and his bibles. the sad thing is donald trump

probably has never read the bible. he's probably never even opened one up because if he did you wouldn't hear some of the hateful rhetoric that you see at his rallies and the way that he defines the least of these in our society. the great thing about kamala harris is when you go to her rally she's not talking about her, she's talking about us. she's talking about the american people and the things that she wants to do as president of the united states in order to help all of us. this opportunity economy that she's talking about will be a game changer. one of the things that resonated so personally with me is about having medicare cover elder care in their homes. we think about -- my grandma who is at a nursing home now, one of the hardest decision that is we had, rev, was she wanted to stay at home but we could not provide the medical coverage that she needed. kamala harris has listened to the american people in her discussions around the country

and said, this is something that we need to change. now, this is on top of, you know, bringing down the cost of prescription drugs for seniors, making sure the costs of insulin is affordable for our seniors, all the things that she has done. that is who kamala harris is. she goes out, she talks to the american people, she listens to them and then she comes back to talk to all of us about what are the policy prescriptions that we can do in order to make life better for all americans. donald trump doesn't do any of that. he goes for these photo ops and all of these crass things that he's doing right now, but he never talks about the american people. that's the contrast in this election. somebody who wants to be in office to help folks, someone who wants to be in office to avoid all of the criminal charges and to amass some type of power. >> chairman harris, election day of course 13 days away, but for so many americans it's already here. yourself you said you are going

to be voting later today. millions of americans cast their ballots early. give us a sense of the data. what have the democrats seen in terms of democratic party registration and turnout. where are we strong? where do you still need more people to come out? >> well, it's important that we need people to come out everywhere. i want folks to go ahead, i don't care if you are in pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, nevada, arizona, georgia, north carolina, florida, texas, go out and vote, folks. cast your ballot now. if you run into any problems go to i will vote.com, we have a hotline that is ready. i will vote.com. if you run into any problems because republicans are trying to keep you from the ballot box, we have lawyers on the ready who are there to help you share that information with your friends and family as well or you can text vote to 70888. now, in terms of -- i'm seeing some good numbers in terms of turnout. it seems like republicans have woken up on the early vote, they're voting early as well,

but that's okay. at the end of the day we have a ground operation that we've never had in the democratic party before and i'm very, very confident on that. we've been doing this for well over not just this year, but well over three years on building a ground in -- a ground operation in the battleground states and so i feel really confident about the boots on the ground and the people that we have there that will push people to the polls and that's really important. >> yeah. >> we've got two souls to the polls that are coming up, one this sunday, which is going to be really, really big, and then one more before election day. >> all right. and jaime, you said if people are confused on election day there's lawyers on hand, also they can text. what was that? >> yes, so they can go to iwillvote.com and there is a hotline there with a phone number or they can text vote, you can be in line and run into issues text vote, vote to 70888.

we have lawyers on the ready to handle any issue that you may have. >> chairman of the democratic national committee jaime harrison, thank you for that valuable information, we appreciate it. >> thank you. coming up, nbc's trymaine lee joins us with a look at nontraditional voter outreach efforts in the key battleground state of pennsylvania. "morning joe" will be right back. ng joe" will be right back

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46 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a live look of the sun coming up over philadelphia. and with 13 days left until the election a new voter outreach effort is revving up in the heart of philadelphia. joining us now to explain is nbc news correspondent trymaine lee. tell us about this new initiative. >> thank you so much for having me. just days ahead of the voter registration deadline in pennsylvania i hit the streets of philly with more than 100 black men who are nontraditional voter outreach effort and were this year's most important voting blocks, other black men. in philadelphia they're revved up and ready to go. more than 100 bikers representing some of the city's black motorcycle clubs, cruising through neighborhoods with low

voter turnout and low political engagement, especially among black men. >> everybody needs to get out and vote. >> reporter: the harley-davidson riding pastor heads the biggest black church in philly. >> black bikers vote, black men vote and then just people who care about democracy getting together on a beautiful day. >> if you don't vote, nobody is going to hear your voice. >> reporter: joe paul is executive director of black men vote. >> talk to us about these unique efforts to engage with black men. >> you know, black men are not monolithic, we wear tons of different hats. we're interested in barbershops, interested in sports, we know brothers are going to pay attention and it's important for them to see themselves riding through the neighborhood. >> reporter: vp kamala harris and donald trump are in a dead heat according to recent national polls. while an overwhelming majority of black voters, including black male voters, support vp harris, a generational trend is emerging. in a poll of seven swing states, 21% of black men under the age of 50 lining up behind trump.

that's why both sides are in a battleground state blitz aimed at black men. >> thank you, pennsylvania. >> reporter: harris appearing on black-oriented national media with high profile interviews with sharl made the god and the shade room and trump leaning on his black male supporters including controversial nfl stand jouts antonio brown and le'veon bell. >> let's vote for the trump, baby. >> reporter: back on the streets of philadelphia. >> we are here to support the vote cl on motorcycle, bikes, cars, walking, we want to make sure we are representing and making sure we are moving forward with our constitutional rights. >> reporter: black men say they want to be heard. >> i think both parties make the mistake of assuming that when you talk to black men about criminal justice reform you've answered our questions. but we are entrepreneurs and we are business persons and we are homeowners and we are people with student loans because we graduated from college and we

want some real discussions around economic matters in the community. >> black men vote set a goal in cycle of registering 100,000 black men in cities all across the country and they tell me they've hit 95% of that goal with 60,000 voter registrations coming from black men in philly. >> one of the things i noticed when we did our bus tour through philly a couple weeks ago is there seems to be nontraditional people and nontraditional groups that have risen up telling people to vote, and what a lot of the national media misses is there is a strong and large muslim, black muslim, orthodox muslim population in philadelphia. >> that's right. this conversation about black men and how engaged black men are in this cycle, has energize folks on the ground, kind of forus, by us mentality, as you mentioned philadelphia is the only city with majority black muslim population.

engaging with black men in city like philadelphia on matters, issues that matter most to them, not just women's rights and lgbtq issues, issues around gaza. that conversation has to happen in a place like philly with black men. >> there's been concerns that the national democrats of the pennsylvania state party, philadelphia itself a little bit of mess. >> i spent time yesterday in montgomery county, there was a lot of energy that area, what they're right to do is drive upturnout as much as they can to mitigate against the other areas in pennsylvania where turnout may be lower or perhapsless organization as you're suggesting. >> tremaine when you're talking to black male voters and talk as

kamala harris as a black women, does the fact that she's woman of color makes a difference in their vote. >> there are a few groups of the country that have benefited from the leadership of black women than black men. i think some of the issue it cuts along generational younger. cohort of black men not falling in the traditional line of voting for democrat, there's a lot of misinformation, all of these guys, but the idea that black men are somehow more misogynistic than other men, concern around whether she's tough enough may play for certain folks. >> nbc news correspondent tremaine lee, thank you very much for your reporting. we appreciate it.

still ahead, new legal trouble for donald trump's former attorney rudy giuliani. why a judge's ordering him to surrender property and valuable assets. "morning joe" is coming right back. back

a federal judge has ordered former new york city mayor rudiy giuliani to hand over his luxury manhattan property. he was found to have defamed the two georgia election workers. the judge gave giuliani one week to transfer the asset. giuliani was found liable last year for defaming former election workers rudy freeman and shay moss when he made baseless claims.

jonathan, we're talking about a penthouse apartment, we're talking about watches, 26 watches that he had, mercedes-benz once owned by lauren bacall. the list to get to $145 million is going to be long. remember, this was very serious for these women, election workers who committed no fraud, he invented a story, pushed it online, conspiracy theory about what they were doing when they weren't, they were harassed. they had to go into hiding. . the consequences of this kind of rhetoric was very real for these women. >> on a far more serious note, these women felt their lives were in danger.

rev, two notes here, hope this was a warning to not engage in this behavior. but also, another moment in a remarkable fall from grace, rudy giuliani. >> we were political enemies for many years. i found no glory in his fall, i find a warning to others that no matter who you are you should be held accountable. and i do feel that it's a good signal that these women stood up, fought back for their reputation, i'm glad to see they're being dealt in a just way that compensates for some of their pain. even he who claimed he was defending the law, the law catches up and holds him accountable, too. >> he knew it was a lie the entire time. they suffered real consequences.

even this year in georgia and other states across the country, stepd up security for election workers who are giving their time to make sure our democratic process works. coming up, we'll more from retired ten john kelly the former white house chief of staff. we'll bring you the key moments from vice president harris' interview with telemu in, do as she looks to increase support from the latino community. "morning joe" back in two minutes. ck in two minutes.

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their opinions and i don't think anyone wants a america who are worried about retribution if you make your opinion known. i think vice president harris supports a future for this country where these freedoms and many others would be protected and upheld. here to tell you much more about that -- president barack obama. >> i got to say -- you know, i have done a lot of rallies. so i don't usually get nervous. but i was feeling some kind of way following eminem. i notice my palms are sweating, knees weak, arms are heavy, i'm

nervous but on the surface i look calm and ready to drop bombs but i keep -- [ cheers and applause ] i thought em nen was going to be performing. i was going to jump out. >> former president obama channeling rap superstar eminem after being introduced by the star in detroit. earlier he was in madison, wisconsin, for a rally with kamala harris' running mate governor tim walz. meanwhile, bruce springsteen will head a rally with president obama for the harris/walz campaign in the coming days, one in thursday and another on

monday in philadelphia. as for vice president harris she sat down for multiple interviews including nbc spanish language sister network telemundo. donald trump's campaign grows ever darker. and we're now hearing from trump's longest serving chief of staff, retired general john kelly describing the former president's praise for hitler. and issuing dire warnings about his former boss. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, october 23rd. with us we have the host of way too early, jonathan lemire. u.s. special correspondent for bbc news. katty kaye.

former supreme allied commander of nato james stavridis, chief international analyst for nbc news and new york times investigator reporter michael schmidt with us. >> willie, lot to talk about this morning, of course last night's rally in detroit kind of hard to find somebody that fits the moment as far as politically and dem graphically more than eminem regarding showing up at a rally, he and barack obama, at that michigan rally, really something to behold. at the same time, of course we're just getting dark news, dismal news from donald trump's longest serving chief of staff, a general who committed his life to protecting and defending americans, defending our shores and defending the constitution of the united states. >> yeah, general, who served the

country, who lost a son to war, a general who served as chief of staff to donald trump for a couple of years during that first term, and who now is so deeply concerned has gone on the record talking about his concerns about donald trump's obsession with autocrats and fascism. donald trump's praise for hitler it's one of those moments where we just have to stop and consider what's being said about this man. i mean, we can't blow past that, he gets so many passes, graded on a curve, praise for hitler? that's disqualifying in any other political campaign in the history of politics, yet donald trump skates by among many of his spotters and many people in congress and people who know better about this man. we'll get into some of the details about this, something we heard whispers about it, now general kelly going on the

record to talk about it. >> a moment that will stand out as we look back on how this plays out. >> let's go -- let's see of course what republicans do to defend. >> this is michael schmidt's interview with donald trump's former chief of staff john kelly in taped conversation. kelly said the former president meets the definition of fascist and will rule like a dictator. >> certainly the former president is in the far-right area, he's certainly on authoritarian admires people who are dictators -- he has said that. so he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure.

>> if he was left to his own devices would he be like a dictator? >> i think he'd love to be just like he was in business -- he could tell people to do things and they would do it. and not really bother too much about whether what the legalities were and whatnot. >> kelly, a retired general held to the position of chief of staff, longer than anyone in the trump administration, he e called the former president's recent comments about possibly using the military on american citizens disturbing, adding the remarks prompted him to speak out. >> and i think this issue of using the military on -- to go after -- american citizens is one of those things i think is a very, very bad thing -- even to say it for political purposes to get elected -- i think it's a

very, very bad thing. >> certainly the only president that has all but rejected what america is all about, and what makes america america, in terms of our constitution, in terms of our values, the way we look at everything, include family, government, he certainly isn't the only president that i know certainly in my lifetime that was like that. >> kelly, also said trump, quote, never accepted the fact that he wasn't the most powerful man in the world and by power i mean an ability to do anything he wanted any time he wanted. kelly confirmed previous reports that the former president spoke positively of hitler. >> he commented more than once that "you know, hitler did some

good things, too," and of course if you know history -- again, i think he's lacking in that -- but if you know what hitler was all about, pretty hard to make argument that he did anything good. >> a trump campaign spokesperson said in a statement that kelly totally beclowned himself by recounting debunked stories about the trump administration. but the chief of staff is about as close as it gets to the president and this is a respected retired general. >> imagine trump talking about an american general that way. i don't know who the spokesperson was, i would say that of anybody, democratic or republican, or independent attacking a man who's committed his life to the united states military, protecting america. lost a son who gave his life to protect america, saying the word beclown and these aren't

debunked stories, these are incidents where as chief of staff he was talking about donald trump. admiral james stavridis, i don't know where to begin here, why don't we just begin at the beginning, start at the very beginning, one of the reasons that general said he had to come out when donald trump started saying and he continues to say that he's going use the united states military against his political enemies. he's going to use the united states military against his political opponents. first of all, please tell us, again, what an absolute breach this is, not only from american history but the american constitution, from everything that you have fought for and have given your entire life for in defending this constitution.

>> thanks, joe. let's really go back to the beginning. i met john kelly when we were in our 20s, and serving together on an aircraft carrier deployed to the middle east. i've known john kelly since 1979, i watched his children grow up, two of his sons became marine officers, never forge he's a gold star father, his son died under my command in afghanistan on the 9th of november in 2010, 2009. so i have known john kelly forever, he's as truthful and as genuine as authentic as anyone i have ever met. he's also as you say a four-star general, that means throughout the course of his career, joe, again and again, he raised his right hand and swore an oath not to the president of the united

states, the commander in chief, he swore that oath like every military member does to the constitution of the united states. i solemnly swear to support and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic. so let's bring it home, what's an enemy to the constitution? i'd say it's someone who wants to take control, take power, and use it to disassemble our democracy, that's the threat that john kelly was describing so well and so authentically and so honestly in these superb article by michael. >> so michael, let's get into some more detail about john kelly told you and how troubled in your conversation he thought. he talked about fascism. trump governing like a dictator.

personal loyalty above the constitution, he talked about donald trump to just not understanding fundamental american values, what was exceptional to you, what stood ou to you this time? >> i think the most important thing about it was the fact that we could hear the audio, i think that as reporters we run into different obstacles in terms of telling a story and when we think that there's an important story we have to continue to look for new and different ways to tell it. and i think the most important thing here is that you can hear kelly himself in his own words expressing it and people can hear for themselves. i think to your point a lot has been written about kelly, a lot has been written about his relationship with trump about what he has seen. but i thought the most important thing was to capturing him actually saying that and that

was not, you know, logistically that wasn't a hard thing to do, but to get kelly to that point was a very, very hard thing to do and something that took, you know, in some ways it took many years. this is not what john kelly wants to be doing, john kelly wants to be going to talk to young marines, to talk to college students about the united states, about service, he wants to be going to see gold star families in vfw halls. he's not someone who's really that easy to find. he's off doing those types of things and i thought, you know, i didn't think that john kelly was going to sit down and go on television, i didn't think he was going to go on the campaign trail to do this, trying to get him to talk in a way that was

more than just text i thought was really important here, text is important. the basis of what we do as reporter. but i thought we needed to look for another way to communicate his story and what he had to say and that's why we put so much of the audio out. >> and we'll talk more about this with the former top adviser to john kelly who worked closely with him at the department of homeland security. his warning about the threats donald trump poses to american democracy, straight ahead, on "morning joe." ." harlem has everything. but i couldn't find pilates anywhere. so i started my own studio. and with the right help, i can make this place i love even better. earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business.

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ends december 7th. humana. a more human way to healthcare. ♪♪ so, admiral, generals try to stay out of politics. general kelly on the record, we have heard from general milley recently, general mattis in bob woodward's book talking about trump being a threat. what will they do in the military from that side of things presented in scenario donald trump said you need to go into the streets put down that rioter, arrest this person, what is the duty first of all, what

might those people put in the jobs because of their loyalty to donald trump what might they do? >> right question to ask, i worry a lot about that, by the way, to your point about others who have spoken out, general stan mcchris tal, there are other voices out here in that retired community, i think inside on active duty, as i said before i continue to believe the u.s. military will stick to the constitution of the united states. every member of the military, all volunteers, have stood and taken that oath again and again and again, i watched the freshmen arriving at the naval academy do it this past summer, it's very moving. it's woven into the dna of the military. and you just would have to reach

so deep into the military, i think it would be very difficult to find u.s. military general or admiral who would be willing to go back up the arrest of a former political opponent. it's just unthinkable to me. and yes, the counter to that, well, you know, admiral, it was probably unthinkable in hitler's germany in 1939, it has happened. i'd like to think our u.s. military would stand and deliver in those circumstances, i truly believe they would, but to the conversation we're having this morning it bears deep watch, storm warnings out there. >> and yet, unfortunately, admiral, so many have grown numb and are now kowtowing to donald

trump, the wall street journal editorial page mocked what they called, quote, the fascist meme after donald trump had been promising for days to use the national guard and the military and kept calling nancy pelosi and adam schiff the enemies from within as if he was going to do what america did during the war on terror and arrest people, not have article 3 courts and just lets go through this. the fascist meme two days after saying that, donald trump's longest serving chief of staff said, yes, he's a fascist. donald trump is saying these

things, chief of staff and generals saying this. donald trump is promised over the past couple of weeks, to arrest nancy pelosi, adam schiff, called them the enemies from within, go after political opponents, go after people in the media, to take cbs off the air because he didn't like the 60 minutes interview, we talked before about trying comcast for treason, talking about taking abc off the air, talked about all of these things, i just -- i'm just -- let me ask you, do you agree with general kelly that saying that donald trump is behaving like a fascist, talking like a fascist, is that somebody

that including those people who write editorials at the wall street journal should be deeply concerned about for themselves, that this is more than an election to see who the next president is, this is an election to determine the future fate of what form of government we have. >> john kelly, honest, true, genuine, has spent more time around donald trump, one-on-one, than almost anybody else during that presidential period, i take great faith in what he says and his judgments, and i agree with him. i also even though it's on background with a number of other sources, mark milley, another very senior officer like john kelly, a bostonian, honest, true, genuine, looks like a bouncer in a bar in boston, went

to princeton, he on background has said that trump is a fascist to his core, the quote in the most recent book, so i are pose a lot of trust in those officers both of whom i know intimately and i am very worried. final thought, not only playing in this arena here in the united states, katty kay would tell you this this second koeing enormously in europe, i spent time yesterday with a group of very senior koreans, this this second koeing around the world what is happening, the world's eyes are on us. in a worrisome conversation this morning was the percentage of americans you quoted who believe that these authoritarian figures are the answer in some sense the real concern is not just donald

trump, it's who we are as a country. the world is watching. this is the most important election in my lifetime. >> coming up, our next guest isn't partisan but is fighting against the disinformation that threatens america's elections. morning joe is back in a moment. morning joe is back in a moment. liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i saved hundreds. with the money i saved i thought i'd get a wax figure of myself. cool right? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting!

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steve: i am a former commander ♪♪ of a u.s. army small arms training company, and i take the responsibility of being a gun owner very seriously. we need to make sure that these weapons don't end up in the wrong hands, but when donald trump had the chance, he refused to close loopholes that let criminals and dangerous people buy guns. that leads to more violent crime, and it puts our law enforcement at risk.

kamala harris will do what it takes to keep our families and communities safe. vo: giffords pac is responsible for the content of this advertising.

i'm a capitalist. i'm a pragmatic capitalist. i believe that we need a new generation of leadership in america, that actively works with the private sector to build up the new industries of america, to build up small

business owners, to allow us to increase home ownership to allow people and their families to build intergenerational wealth. i believe in supporting workers. >> vice president harris speaking last night with nbc's spanish language sister network telemundo. the interview part of a latino media blitz the harris campaign announced that includes radio interviews with running mate tim walz and second gentleman doug emhoff. >> we heard donald trump talking to spanish-speaking audiences or having ads talking about harris being a socialist, biden being socialist, it's exhausting. the united states is leading the world, its economy the envy of the world, we talked about this before but the dow at record highs the s&p 500 at record highs, the united states has

taken more oil from the ground this year, produced more oil than any other, a $26 trillion gdp, no one else is remotely close, california has a larger gdp than all but four countries. the jobs numbers, unbelievably great over the past several years. gas prices, are plummeting. inflation, going down. interest rates going down. kamala harris, what is she talking about? she's not talking about five years plans she's talking about tax cuts for small businesses, for entrepreneurs, for first-time home buyers, the sort of thing that lifts up the middle class and actually grows capitalism. >> not terribly socialist, right, yet there's this sense, i

think it dates back to some of the hispanic immigrants who have come in from venezuela where they have seen socialism or any kind of accusation or prospect there could be a socialist leader in this country, true or not true, does resonate. one of the things that's been a little puzzling over the last four years, actually, ever since joe biden took back the white house is you listen to donald trump in office and i remember speaking to republican pollsters about this, what resonated? the way he railed against political prisoners and my stock market and how strong the stock market was, for democrats perhaps they feel it's elitist to talk about how well the stock market is doing, but there's

something confidence inspiring that spreads throughout the economy or throughout the public when you keep reminding people, it's like the stock market as a symbol of how well the american economy is doing, reminding americans exactly of what you just said, joe, time and again how well the united states economy is doing. it's not just the imf saying it. coming up, joe's interview with jimmy kimmel, they talk about the presidential race, the role of comedy in politics, and donald trump's threats to punish people who don't agree with him. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." rning joe. (intercom) t minus 10... (janet) so much space! that open kitchen!

(tanya) ...definitely the one! (ethan) but how can you sell your house when we're stuck on a space station for months???!!! (brian) opendoor gives you the flexibility to sell and buy on your timeline. (janet) nice! (intercom) flightdeck, see you at the house warming.

welcome back. jimmy kimmel has been hosting his late night show for over 20 years, very fitting considering his all-time idol is david letterman. last week i spent some time with him at his los angeles studios. jimmy, thanks for doing this. >> my pleasure. >> you've been at this for 22 years. >> almost, in january it will be 22 years. >> have you seen comedy as an opportunity to push back against whether it's wokism or whether the sort of groupthink on the right or the left. >> i feel like, i like always enjoyed having kind of a corporate villain, like when we started doing the man show. abc wanted to put it on and i loved that idea, i loved the idea of being on this wholesome

family network that still showed disney movies on sunday nights. i loved the idea. disney said we're not going to put this on. i think now people obviously are more sensitive. i personally am not more sensitive. when comedians say things, i look at it in framework of a comedian saying something. i'm never offended by anything when somebody is trying to be funny and i love all kinds of comics. i think it's overstated the whole thing. >> everybody's a little oversensitive. >> oversensitivity. there's oversensitivity to the oversensitivity. >> you were talking about pushing back against corporate villains, no one was better than that than your hero, david

letterman. how big of an impact in your life was letterman. >> bigger than my parents. very big. i was -- i mean, in high school, people are known for this or that, i was known as the kid who watched david letterman. that was my identity. >> you did what letterman did and you were at a college radio station. personalized name plate. >> my license plate said lanite. i went to the dmv. and the lady said, i'm a letterman fan. i said, yeah. how did you know that? you think you're the only one who watched the show. >> you stumbled out of college? >> yeah, i was never serious about college, i was doing it in

the hopes of i would get a morning radio show, i got one in seattle, i could not wait to get to work the weekend felt long to me, i haven't had that experience since then, but i just couldn't wait to get on the air and they fired us after ten months. >> so, you started this show and then trump happened. and we all manned the stations. kind of the same thing with you. where you didn't want to get political. >> many are now seriously questioning whether trump is healthy to be running for president, what does he do? he questions whether his opponent is healthy enough to be running for president, dr. dolittle hands was up attacking kamala's medical records. >> i think that was more related to mainstream republicanism and

this idea that, that i don't know, that it's not okay to have socialized health care, but it's fine to have socialized education. if your baby is going to die and it doesn't have to, it shouldn't matter how much money you make, i think that's something that whether you're a republican or democrat or something else we all agree on that, right, we do. >> none of it really makes sense and my son had open heart surgery, just looking at these families and thinking, it's hard enough just to take off from work to come be here all day, make sure somebody is here with your kid, the medical expenses and i started taking interest in it. it just so happens i'm sitting in children's hospital funded large libido nations but also by the government and i feel like i need to make something --

>> you also got involved in another issue being from las vegas. >> the shooter opening fire with an automatic weapon from his 32nd floor hotel room. >> it's been shocking. most americans support commonsense gun safety laws. glit's hard to believe that we've done nothing, we let this happen, we let it happen. >> you decided to talk about that as well. >> yeah, i mean, it was my hometown, i felt i had to say something. >> hello, everyone. here we are again in the aftermath of another terrible, inexplicable painful tragedy this time in las vegas. >> it's very hard for me. i like to go out there and goof around. >> right. >> the human tragedy is hard to process. we don't do anything about it.

even though we're not -- most of us believe in background checks. >> 90% universal. >> half the country goes ahead and elects politicians who don't represent their views because they're getting money from a group and they're getting an endorsement from a group that has power that's consolidated. >> we have something in common, we met our wives on our show. >> right. >> talk about meeting your wife on the show. >> my wife and i worked together for a good amount of time, i think many seven years before we became romantically involved. i always tell her she had her eyes on me the whole time. she denies it. we worked together.

i'm in this building where our studio is, she's in the next building. you know, we have meetings -- >> does it work well. >> pretty well. >> any conflicts? >> sometimes, we have conflicts. >> about the show? >> yeah. certainly conflicts, personal conflicts. there are many, even today we had an argument about a clip she wanted a clip in the show and i felt it was too long and really got into the weeds and she said, you have to play it, i said everybody saw it on internet yesterday, she said you need to show it. i said, i'm trying to inject some comedy into the monologue. she said, since when? then i stopped responding. more from my sitdown from jimmy kimmel next. we talked about the focus of most of his monologues these days, donald trump. >> he's not just running for president, he's running to stay out of prison, and that's a

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jimmy kimmel is a loser. look, who would do jimmy kimmel? i did him a lot. >> many con feudsing me with stormy daniels, i don't know. three times, on almost 22 times. on three times. >> probably no late-night host who gets under donald trump's skin more than jimmy kimmel. he talked about that and what he would do if donald trump wins another term.

>> i'm an optimistic person, i'm not hysterical, i laugh when people say, oh, you got trump derangemen syndrome, if you're a reasonable person you should have trump derangement syndrome. but the fact of the matter is, this is a dangerous person, a stupid person, and that's bad combination, and i think what we're forgetting, i keep forgetting it, he's not just running for president he's running to stay out of prison and that's a pretty powerful thing, he's literally running for his freedom. >> it seems like everybody sort of manned the battle stations, talking about talking about arresting his political opponents. >> yeah. >> he pressured -- try to pressure disney because of your jokes. >> he believes cbs should have their license revoked. >> because he doesn't like how

they edited a "60 minutes" package. >> how concerned are you about what you do right now may have to change if donald trump is reelected? >> well, it won't change. i am not -- i'm concerned, certainly. i think that it would be so unamerican if he were to come after people who are speaking out against him. >> what do you think, though, is happening in the country? where you have two weeks out and it's one thing to just look at donald trump and look at some, you know, senators, but we're actually talking about 70, 75, 80 million people. >> yeah. i think we're focused on the wrong things, i think we're being focused on the wrong things. i think that there are certain news networks, if you want to call them that, who are lying to people. i think that there's a certain

generation of which we are a part who are used to watching television and seeing the white man in a suit telling us what's going on in the world and believing that what he's saying is true. i think that is ingrained in us as americans. we grew up with dan rather and tom brokaw and peter jennings and we did not question that what they were telling us was factual and a lot of people now are looking at sean hannity and whomever else and they are not questioning whether or not what they're saying is factual. what they're hearing is untrue. i can understand why they think what they think because they're being told there's a caravan of migrants coming, and then nobody is following up at the end and saying, oh, there was no caravan of migrants coming. and aurora, colorado, has not been taken over by venezuelan street gangs. by the way, this story about cats and dogs being devoured by haitian immigrants --

>> in springfield they're eating the dogs, the people who came in, they're eating the cats, they're eating -- they're eating the pets. >> -- is preposterous. i will tell you i've been dreaming the last three nights i've been just going -- i've been going through all of this craziness over and over, it's really starting to take a toll. like i just -- i can't get it out of my head. >> do you look forward to the day when you don't have to -- because one of the things that is so exhausting to me, and why there have been several times where i was like i don't think i can do this anymore, you don't want to talk -- i don't care who it is -- the same person every day, and yet every day there are more outrageous things said so if you don't talk about it you're giving a permission structure. do you look forward to the day when -- >> oh, boy, do i. not only do i poo look forward to the day, i was telling my wife i don't feel like i'm

mentally prepared for the possibility of a loss. i'm not ready -- i have to -- i have to get there where i'm ready for either scenario, or for no scenario, which might be the case for several days, who knows. and i have to also kind of think through what i might say the next day because, you know, i mean, you're going to have to be up the next morning talking about what happened or what didn't happen and what message do you want to send to people who watch the show. it's -- you know, most of my shows aren't important. that one seems a little bit more important than others because i do have a lot of people kind of asking me what i think and going along with what i think and it's a big responsibility, you know. so i don't even remember what i said the last time he won. i just remember staying up almost all night and trying to process it and my wife being very, very upset and feeling very alone. like i've got to figure out what i'm going to say. nobody can figure this out for

me. none of my writers can figure out my take on this. i have to tell them what it is. >> because people want to hear what you think from your heart. >> yeah. it has to be what you really think. sometimes you don't know what you think. >> so why don't we end on a positive note. >> can -- is that possible? >> i always have people ask me who my favorite interview ever was. >> oh. >> and i of course have to say dr. brzezinski because of his daughter but you don't have to say that. do you have a favorite interview or a favorite show? is there something that stands out that all these years later you look back and go, yeah, i was pretty good. >> you know, i've genuinely enjoyed interviewing the presidents and the former presidents. i mean, some of the most fun interviews i've ever done were with president obama, president bush, actually. i'm so interested in just every

little bit of their lives that every question feels relevant. sometimes you have guests and you're like, who cares, you know? >> i'm going to work through this. >> when it comes to the president everything is important and i -- the interview i'm most looking forward to is interviewing president kamala harris. that would be -- i think that's going to be -- i'm going to save my favorite interview for the future. >> my interview with late night host jimmy kimmel. tomorrow i'm going to be talking to another talk show legend after appearing on realtime on hbo last friday it was my turn to interview bill maher. he wasn't shy about many topics including the war in the middle east. >> most people around the world that have territorial disputes it doesn't go on forever. >> right. >> at a certain point they come to some accommodation. not everything is fair but you don't see the mexicans trying to take back phoenix, although they could. they could make the claim. they did have it at one point.

>> we will show you more of that interview tomorrow. still ahead this morning why billionaires are backing a candidate they once attacked. ed luce explains why the richest people in the world are backing donald trump and what they really want from him. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ly want from him that's straight ahead on "morning joe." who loves the outdoors. so her parents use chewy to save 20% on their first order of flea and tick meds. delivered fast, so summit never misses a dose. or an adventure. for quality meds. for life with pets, there's chewy.

as president you have -- it's called extreme power. you have extreme power. just by the fact you say close the border and the border is closed. that's it. very, very simple. you don't need all of this nonsense that they're talking about. that is donald trump talking about the extreme power he would wield as president without the, quote, nonsense of congress and perhaps the constitution. probably important to really frame those words, keeping those words in mind in light of other things he has said recently. he is moving forward with this

predicate and laying more of a predicate down. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire and katty kay are still with us. donald trump's longest serving chief of staff also issuing a stark warning about the dangers of a second trump term. retired marine general john kelly in his own words sounding the alarm about trump's fitness for office. nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has more. >> reporter: with former president trump campaigning in battleground north carolina overnight, his longest serving chief of staff, john kelly, delivering a dire warning about a possible second trump presidency. in a series of interviews with the "new york times." when asked whether he thinks mr. trump is a fascist -- >> he's certainly an authoritarian. admires people who are

dictators. he has said that. so he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure. >> reporter: kelly says he was motivated to speak out following mr. trump's comments about using the military against domestic political opponents, who the former president calls the enemy within. >> they are to me the enemy from within. >> even to say it for political purposes to get elected i think is a very, very bad thing. let alone actually doing it. >> reporter: kelly also discussing trump's relationship with veterans, confirming that trump has called those who died on the battlefield, quote, losers and suckers. and saying the former president did not want to be seen with amputees. >> his not wanting to be seen with amputees, amputees that lost their limbs in defense of this country, that's an interesting perspective for the commander in chief to have. >> reporter: kelly also confirms reports that mr. trump repeatedly spoke highly of adolf hitler. >> he commented more than once that, you know, hitler did some

good things, too. >> reporter: in a statement the trump campaign saying kelly has totally by -- clowned himself. according to a recent report by "the atlantic" mr. trump made other comments about hitler during a private conversation in the white house according to two people who heard him at the time saying, quote, i need the kind of generals that hitler had. people who were totally loyal to him, that follow orders. the trump campaign says the former president never said it. while trump was back on the offensive overnight on the trail, after condemning harris for not holding events yesterday while she conducted interviews. >> she's lazy as hell. >> reporter: later in north carolina launching a barrage of attacks, suggesting, without evidence, that vice president harris abuses alcohol and drugs. >> does she drink? is she on drugs? i don't know. >> nbc's garrett haake with that report. joining us now former army reserve colonel and senior

counselor to john kelly, kevin carroll. he's also a former cia officer. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. i'd like on the heels of what your former boss disclosed publicly on the record, how you fold in and how you express the dangers of donald trump talking about the nonsense of congress and even the constitution. and i guess what i'm trying to say is i think the issue at hand here may be something that is extremely difficult for people who have been living all their lives in a free society to comprehend. >> thanks, mika. his comments that were played about doing what he wants regardless of what congress says are alarming, presumably he would do what he wants regardless of what the courts said as well. and when you overlay it with his outrageous comments about adolf

hitler, it's a genuine cause for concern that i think people should keep in mind as they head into the ballot box. but you can't have -- you don't want to have a commander in chief of the united states who is saying that he wants to use the military to take care of, in his words, political opponents like adam schiff or nancy pelosi, and then saying that he admires hitler. it's an extremely dangerous situation and people need to keep forefront in mind when they make their decision about whom to vote for. >> can you talk about what it means for general kelly to speak out in this -- in this detail at this point in time. >> the fact that he's speaking out means quite a lot. he's a retired general officer. his strong view is that the general officer corps, the flag officer corps, should not get involved in partisan politics. but the situation here is so grave and so serious that he thinks that he needs to go on the record and he went on the

record with "the atlantic," he want on the record with the "new york times" and i'm glad that he did because these statements are so shocking that people need to know them. and i saw that the trump campaign denied them and made comments about the comment. it's not just general kelly, it's general mattis, general milley, former secretary esper, it's several men who went on the record with those stories reporting similar remarks. i would say as a lawyer they have a reputation for a character for truthfulness, which trump does not. trump lies every day. we've heard him quote hitler before when he says things such as immigrants poison the blood of the country. it's not shocking that people report that in private he said similarly awful things. >> well, the thing now is, of course, he's saying this all publicly. he's saying that he's going to use the military to arrest his political opponents. you then have the governor of

virginia and others say, oh, no that's not what he means, and then he corrects fox news host, donald trump, and says, no, that's exactly what i mean, and that's what we're going to do, and he names the former democratic speaker of the house, he names the future democratic senator from california and i do just wonder, mika, when is a republican that is currently serving going to call him out and say, no, mr. president, you can't use the military against your political opponents. no, mr. president, you can't use the national guard against your opponents. and members of congress -- >> citizens. >> -- article i members of congress, what are you going to say to what he said last night? >> as president you have tremendous -- it's called

extreme power. you have extreme power. you can -- just by the fact you say close the border, and the border is closed. that's it. very, very simple. you don't need all this have nonsense that they talk about. >> what nonsense? jonathan lemire, talking about extreme power as president, he said they call it extreme power. nobody -- nobody calls anything extreme power. donald trump is now calling it extreme power when he's saying he can just arrest his political opponents, he can use the military if he wants to use the military, he can -- he can exercise extreme power, again, this is not a meme. he has a general who spent his entire life fighting for this country, for this constitution, protecting us, who sacrificed a son, saw a son die fighting for

this country, and the chairman of the joint chiefs as well, his last one said donald trump is fascist to the core, john kelly said that he was a fascist, and donald trump, he follows that up with talking about the extreme power that he will have. you don't have to worry about this nonsense. this is far from a, quote, meme. this, unfortunately, is like a nightmare for anybody who believes in madisonian democracy, in checks and balances, and in the constitution, which does not allow a president to use the military to arrest political opponents. >> no, it's not a meme. it's all too real. and certainly he doesn't have extreme power given to him by the constitution but what he does now have is the supreme court that says he can basically as president do whatever he needs to do in his official duties. a broad, wide interpretation of

executive power, one that worries many people were trump to take office again. colonel, let me ask you this, we had a conversation earlier in the show about guardrails and how in trump's first term they largely held, but there is a sense that in a second term those within the white house, while they would need to be present because he would surround himself with solely loyalists, there wouldn't be an equivalent to a john kelly. another guardrail they said would hold would be the military, they would serve the constitution not the president. secretary austin and others said there are radical elements within the military, plenty of trump supporters there as well. how much faith do you have that the military would stand as a guardrail if there was a second trump term? >> i have complete faith in my former colleagues that they will not follow illegal orders. i do worry that the president might give them orders that are facially legal, that he has the

statutory authority to invoke the insurrection act but that are given for immoral or unwise reasons. and, again, i have trust and confidence in my former colleagues that they would never do the wrong thing and turn their guns on fellow citizens or presume to arrest a member of congress, subject them to the uniform code of military justice. but even that is not a victory. if we have a situation where the military has to tell the president we're going to ignore you, go sit in the corner because we have the guns, that's not a good situation, either. since george washington we have had civilian-controlled military, military deference to civilian control, and the situation that we're facing i think almost immediately in a second trump presidency would be the military being forced to either do really truly unwise things like use active duty federal troops against protesters on the afternoon of inauguration day or break that tradition to deference to civilian control. the way to avoid it is to elect

kamala harris and not donald trump. >> former army reserve colonel and senior counselor to john kelly, kevin carroll. thank you so much for your insights this morning. joining us now u.s. national editor of "the financial times" ed luce, his latest opinion piece is entitled "what croesus wants from trump." also joining us april ryan, her latest piece is entiled "beyond polls between harris and trump, one candidate stands out with advantage." ed, let's start with your piece in ""the financial times."" you're annualizing why there are so many billionaires backing donald trump and you write in part, if i could, this, one or two maga financiers notably timothy melon of the pittsburgh based dynasty never wavered on trump. the rest made it clear they place higher value on their rate

of asset growth than on the future of u.s. democracy, yet joe biden, the joe biden years, have been kind to america's super rich. the s&p 500 is up by more than 50% since he took office. kamala harris who brands herself a capitalist is friendlier to business than biden. she proposes a 28% capital gains tax, for example, against biden's 39.6%. what, then, is driving the rich back to trump? the missing piece is psychology. when you are as rich as croesus, paranoia about losing it all takes hold. is that what we're talking about here at this moment in time, ed? >> i mean, each billionaire has of course got their own specific transactional hopes, most would like to see regulations on self-driving cars relaxed more, federal contracts for starlink,

i think harold hamm the oklahoma-based oil tycoon would like to see drill, baby, drill, an unblocking of the freeze on drilling in the alaskan arctic. each of them will have their different -- and of course it's the crypto people and howard lutnick of kanter fitzgerald, but in general i think if you look at the billionaires and it's a small handful and susan glasser, herpes in "the new yorker" really nailed the scale of this. it's a small handful of billionaires who believe -- profess to believe that kamala harris represents communism. that everything -- all the wealth creation, everything that they've so brilliantly created would be in jeopardy if kamala -- communist kamala becomes president. and you cannot explain this by the numbers. you can't. i mean, if you look at steve schwartzman, the co-founder of

blackstone, the private equity guy who is worth $50 billion, he was worth $23 billion when biden came to power. his fortune has more than doubled since biden took office. he condemned january 6, he basically said trump is no good anymore. now he's back with trump and convinced himself that if it isn't trump then it's all over. a sense of history can't explain that. accounting can't explain that because kamala harris would not tax his fortune that much more than trump would. only psychology can explain, only paranoia can explain why you would take that completely indefensible position -- and i should say steve schwartzman in 2010 when barack obama was president he said that barack obama's plans to close the carried interest loophole, in other words, to tax private equity at a normal rate rather

than less than your secretary as warren buffett put it, he described he likened obama's plan to the nazi invasion of poland. as i say, only psychology can explain this. this is not -- this is not a rational position they're taking, but it's an incredibly dangerous one. they are -- they are in a -- as we've been hearing all earlier through the morning they are enabling american fascists to come back to power. >> april, we have all been looking for data to try to understand what is clearly a very close election and i love what you've been doing which is going through the data on television rankings and what you found between donald trump's rankings and kamala harris' rankings. explain that a little bit. i think it's super interesting. given what you found and that trump has said he's going on a podcast like joe rogan, one of the biggest audiences in the states, do you think it would be important for her to do that type of thing, that show in

particular? >> the way i understand it they're still going to be doing more interviews but we put so much emphasis as a nation on polls but there are other pillars and other signals that are undervalued, particularly as you were just saying, these metrics from some of these interviews last week or the week before that kamala harris and donald trump did. now, the way we look at it, we've got all the numbers from the fox news interview with bret baier and that same day donald trump did an interview, a town hall, with harris faulkner. he received 3.1 million viewers. now, according to nielsen and according to other ratings, she received at least 7 million viewers from that -- from that interview alone. now, let's go to "the view." "the view" on october 8 spoke to harris, they received their highest numbers in three and a

half years for that one interview. and then let's go to charlamagne tha god, the numbers are still coming in when he did that town hall with her in detroit focusing in on black america. those numbers are still coming in. 35 million and counting. that's last night that i got those numbers, not 30.6 billion, but 35 billion and counting. donald trump's numbers are not coming close to that. and i'm still going back to that fox interview. he received 3.1 million views versus her 7.1 million views. okay? that's -- that's a big difference. that's at least twice the size. people are tuning in. why? maybe to learn more about her or maybe because she's more serious or just trying to find out her policy versus his, but that's the big question. why are people tuning in and his numbers not as strong as hers? >> so, april, let's talk because a lot of focus in recent days for the harris team, including

with liz cheney the other day to reach out to republicans, to say this is a sliver of the electorate that we can try to woo over to our side. some democrats wondering are they doing that at the expense of reaching out to the base as well? are they doing enough to drive up voters of color, young and progressive voters, those from the cities? i know you stay in touch with a lot of those groups, what do you think? is the harris team doing enough to bring the base out? >> it's not just harris, the harris team but the surrogates as well. you have to remember, jonathan, right now i'm really hearing a lot more from white women than i heard from white women during obama's run as well as hillary clinton's run. so going to this republican women's group or women's groups, if you will, let's say nikki haley that donald trump has not really attacked, she finds a way in to pull in women,

particularly white women, who are on the fence as donald trump worries about their body parts, worries about ivf and calling himself the king when he is not the king of ivf. so she has got a chance there. she's got other surrogates going after the young people who may be sitting out, have voter apathy, or may consider donald trump in some instances, but nonetheless she still has the larger black vote than donald trump has. >> let me -- ed, let me ask you just generally about what's happened the last few days and you look at the guest essay in the "new york times," he walks us through what donald trump has been saying, his political rivals are, quote, more dangerous than china's and russia's and the others. they are, quote, the enemy

within. he says he can use the military and the national guard to arrest them. edsel quotes donald trump in an earlier speech saying, quote, this is the final battle, where he will crush the state. he says of vladimir putin -- again, this is from thomas edsel's post -- vladimir putin is a genius. xi jinping is, quote, top of the line, a brilliant man. if you went to hollywood to look for somebody to play the role of president xi, you couldn't find it. there's nobody like that. the look, the brain, the whole thing. kim jong-un, again, another communist leader, considered one of the most brutal in the world to his people. quote, my relationship with kim

jong-un was very beautiful. we got along very well. he is the absolute leader of his country, a very strong guy. and he keeps going through all of this. and then you have the chief of staff who served longest as donald trump's chief of staff saying that he is a fascist. you have his last chairman of the joint chiefs saying that he is a fascist and then in the face of all of this donald trump keeps saying that his enemies, america's greatest enemies, are democrats. quote, the enemy within -- and how many times -- again, you have hosts on fox news going, you didn't mean that, did you? and he said, yes, i mean that. you won't use the state to arrest them, will you? and he says, yes. yes. that's what they did to me.

and on and on and on. we're two weeks away from the election. how -- i've just got to ask how do you view this? how grave a threat is this? >> it's mortal and deep and real. i have no doubt about that. this isn't something from the last few days or even the last few months or years. you go back to trump's first wife, ivana, pointing out that the book he kept by his bedside was hitler's mein kompf. this isn't new trolling for the social media age. this is back in the tv age of the 20th century. trump has been an admirer of strong men in general and hitler in particular. for half of his adult life at least if not more.

he doesn't read books, by the way, this was the one book his first wife ever saw him with. so when he was president, trump had a meeting with angela merkel and he claimed that angela merkel, the german leader, said to him there's only one other politician in history who gets crowds like this. he related this story, i don't believe angela merkel said that, but what trump was implying was the only other guy who got crowds like this was hitler. i get hitler's crowds. look at me. so i believe him when he tells us who he is, as he keeps telling us who he is. and i find -- i have to say i find a sort of moral repugnance when i see people who know better, and they do know better, telling us don't believe what you hear. don't believe what you see. do not believe any of this, it's just a shtick, he's just playing things up, he's just trying to troll you.

that's not true. he means this. he is who he says he is and he is consistently throughout his life deeply en immediate strong men. that's trump's consistency. >> 100%. >> jonathan lemire, so many people who said they are going to vote for donald trump tell you he never said these things. you show them the clip, you show them the quote, you -- you show them his plans and they say, oh, he doesn't mean t and you have governors of virginia, members of congress, republicans, editorial pages of some of the most esteemed newspapers in america and the world saying he doesn't mean this. he can't do this. it's just a meme. >> it's repugnant. >> it's shocking. >> this is the moment, guys,

we're running out of time. >> it really is. and talk about -- i would just say talk about the frustration, not just of the harris campaign, but of constitutional republicans who understand this grave threat, and the fact that so many people are voting just aren't paying attention and if you draw their attention to it they go, oh, he doesn't mean it. >> that's why the harris team in its closing argument is leaning a little bit more about the idea that trump is the threat to democracy. we're hearing that more from the vice president as well. and there is real worry that trump and the republicans successfully downplayed january 6th. that indeed his supporters will either not believe something he said or they will say, oh, he didn't mean it. and that includes the speaker of the house. joe and mika, i would just leave this conversation with this, that mike johnson who was an architect of some of the legal backbone of the challenges to

the 2020 election, he's been in on the big lie since day one, he's appearing with trump at his madison square garden rally this weekend and he would be someone if the republicans could retain the house would have an outsized hand in certifying the election results this time around, who might be fighting for his own speakership even at that moment and would perhaps be willing to take up the mantel again for trump to contest the election were trump to lose but not wanting to concede. >> all right. u.s. national editor it "the financial times," ed luce, thank you very much and washington bureau chief and senior white house correspondent for the grillo, april ryan. thank you both for coming on the show. their respective new pieces are available to read online right now. and coming up, how the top election official in the nation's biggest battleground state is preparing to take on election misinformation or even potential violence.

pennsylvania's secretary of state joins us straight ahead. plus he has written 50 consecutive number one best sellers, now one of the world's most widely read authors is back with his first nonfiction book in years. john grisham joins us to discuss his latest collection "framed." "morning joe" will be right back. n "framed. "morning j" oewill be right back some days, you can feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. and treatment is 4 times a year. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache.

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recruiting poll watchers for the november 5th vote. earlier this year pennsylvania's governor, democrat josh shapiro established the pennsylvania election threats task force to protect election workers and voters from increased political violence and threats. joining us now is the leader of that task force, pennsylvania secretary of the commonwealth al schmidt, he is in charge of the state's elections. first of all, mr. schmidt, very good luck for the next couple of weeks. we will all be watching you. how confident are you that the vote in pennsylvania is going to be safe and that the vote counting afterwards is also going to be safe? >> i have no doubt that we will have a free, fair, safe and secure election in pennsylvania in 2024, just as we did in 2020, i would add. we've had a lot of lessons learned since 2020 and one of those was -- resulted in the creation of the governor's

election threat task force so that if we do encounter any of the ugliness, that many of us encountered in 2020, in big cities and rural counties, democrats and republicans alike, we have open lines of communication between law enforcement and the people responsible for running elections. so law enforcement can do its job and our election officials can do their job that only they can do, which is counting votes in a very time-sensitive and highly scrutinized environment? mr. secretary, you just spoke about the threat of violence, but what about the threat of disinformation, of misinformation, of conspiracy theories? we've seen them running amok already on social media. you know, we're under two weeks to go until election day, some voters already casting their ballots. what can someone like you, your office, do to try to tamp down those kind of conspiracy theories and maintain voters' faith in the process?

>> well, those two things are really very closely related. as i think we've all seen in the last five years. these threats of violence or intimidation targeting our voters, targeting our precinct poll workers, or our polling places or our county election officials really all derives from miss and disinformation that voters have been subjected to, an absolute avalanche of it. so there's been different approaches from state to state in how to deal with it. some fight day and night with people on social media platforms to correct the lies that they're spreading. others ignore it all together. what we are doing in pennsylvania is really closely monitoring it so that we can share the truth about our elections at the same time others are spreading lies about them. and you would think the truth would be the antidote to lies

and it's certainly been a frustrating process for sure, but it's our responsibility, voters have a lot of questions because elections have changed so much in the last few years, to answer their questions and make sure that they know exactly how safe and secure our elections are in pennsylvania. >> secretary schmidt, you know, growing up we would go in and vote, wouldn't think much about it. we'd get the ballot, thank the people, vote and go. i now find myself when i go to vote shaking hands with everybody in there and thanking them because i know it's crazy the world we live in, but i know the sacrifices that they're making and the risks that they're taking. could you just talk to americans that are going to go out and vote and tell them whether it's in pennsylvania or alabama or idaho or california, what --

what indispensable patriots all of these people are for going out there and helping this election run effectively. >> they really are patriots and i would add they are your friends and they are your neighbors. when you go to vote on election day, these are people who are working -- our polls are open from 7:00 a.m. until 8:00 p.m., but obviously they have to get there before the polls open and obviously they stay there after the polls close so that they can report their returns to the county. but these are people working more than 14 hours for very little pay, it's basically a volunteer position, and the most important people on election day, it's certainly not the secretary of state, it's not even the county commissioner, it's those people who make sure that they are there for you when you show up and you can cast your vote and make your voice heard. and they really -- whenever they are on the receiving end of grief and awfulness and all the

rest, it is -- it is really awful to have them experience that when they are the people making our democratic republic function. >> yeah, and they are volunteers, all of them. pennsylvania secretary of the commonwealth al schmidt, thank you so much. bring us those results quickly of course and fairly and accurately counted. we will all be watching. thank you for joining us. >> of course. and still ahead, new technology could help keep passengers honest when they're lining up to board a flight. we're going to explain how that all works next on "morning joe."

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that is not the "morning joe" private jet. some impatient passengers may be in for a rude awakening the next time they try to line up early to get on a flight. american airlines is testing new technology that flags people who try to board before their group is called. none of us have ever done that. nbc news correspondent sam brock has more. >> reporter: the days of the boarding backlog and hijinks may be numbered as american airlines looks to crack down on a problem that's long plagued passengers. >> that ain't happening. >> thank you. >> reporter: so-called boarding group jumpers. >> why is it that the boarding of a plane brings out the absolute worst in humanity. >> reporter: america announcing its currently testing new tech that will tell gate agents when someone is trying to aboard ahead of their assigned group alerting them with a beep and on screen message. >> this is not just a problem for american airlines, this is across all airlines where people are sort of boarding out of line.

get that coveted overhead bin space. >> reporter: the airline has already rolled out the new system in albuquerque, tucson and reagan national, saying they are pleased with the results so far, adding the new technology is designed to ensure customers receive the benefits of priority boarding with ease and helps improve the boarding experience. it all comes as more travelers take to social media to air out their frustrations. >> you know you're boarding group 78. ain't no reason for you to be hanging out in front of the line holding people up. >> reporter: boarding gate grievances, even spoofed on "saturday night live." >> we'd now like to welcome any passengers with carry-ons that have no chance of fitting in the overhead compartment. >> reporter: american now joining a fleet of airlines reevaluating their boarding procedures. this summer southwest announced it would ditch its famed open seating policy starting next year after it found 80% of its customers would prefer an assigned seat. >> when a customer defects from southwest to another competitor it's the number one reason.

>> reporter: meanwhile, united airlines recently updating the way passengers board its planes, now opting for the wilma method, to save an average of two minutes. as american looks to curtail line cutters the effort to make boarding a breeze may finally take off. >> so glamorous, that travel. nbc's sam brock reporting for us. coming up, we will speak with best selling author john grisham about his new book "framed" which tells the stories of the wrongfully accused and their battles to win back their freedom. "morning joe" coming right back. . ( ♪♪ ) asthma. it can make you miss out on those epic hikes with friends. step back out there with fasenra. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. ( ♪♪ ) fasenra helps prevent asthma attacks. most patients did not have an attack in the first year.

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the book titled "framed: astonishing true stories of wrongful convictions" was written by long-time advocate for the wrongfully convicted. john grisham. john joins us on set now. so good to see you this morning. >> happy to be here. >> tell us about, first, why this subject is so important to you. >> i got involved with it almost 20 years ago when i wrote my first non fiction book, the innocent man, about one case and became fascinated with wrongful convictions and the number of them. most people don't realize there are thousands of them. i love them from a storytelling point of view because they're rich stories filled with a lot of drama, a lot of suffering, a lot of injustice and, you know, a happy ending every now and then. but they're really great stories to tell. and jim mccloskey is an old

buddy, and we tel stories, have you heard about this case. it's been his life's work. we finally got the idea of taking our top ten favorite depressing stories and write about them. >> john, i don't want to get political here. >> oh, go ahead, joe. >> i think your book serves a political purpose, an important purpose. it seems to me, growing up in the south just like you, a lot of people that call themselves pro-life and are the loudest about that are the biggest advocates of america going to war when the question is raised and the biggest advocates in the death penalty. i've seen it my entire life. i've seen democrats try to get their votes by executing people that shouldn't have been executed. and i'm just curious, how would this book -- how can this book educate people who are instinctively in support of the death penalty, but may not see

just how many innocent people are sent to their deaths unjustly. >> one of the purposes of the book was to try to show readers, those who care to read it, how many wrongful convictions there are and how they apply to everybody, not just minorities. not just people who get most of the convictions. most of the people that get in trouble. we deliberately picked ten cases that involved 22 exonerated people, because white people don't believe they're in prison. we take these cases to try to show how they happen to average people. and, you know, it's also just to raise awareness about how wrong the death penalty is. one case, we follow it to the very end, and a young man is executed in texas ten years ago for a crime that never occurred. and they're trying to do it

again in texas. we're trying to stop it again in texas. so, it's awareness, the stories are so rich, so hard to believe, so fun to read, although they're frustrating and maddening, whatever. but they're great, great stories. >> can you give us a quick summary of perhaps the story that shocks you the most, that shocks your conscience the most about somebody sent unjustly to their death by our government? >> you can't do it in a quick summary, any of these stories. they're very, very long stories. but the story i just mentioned, the man was executed in texas in 2014 for a crime that never occurred. he was convicted of setting his house on fire to burn up his three daughters, in texas, in 1992. the arson experts, by the state of texas, said it clearly was arson and it clearly was not arson. he served ten years on death row and was executed.

after his death the real science came out and they were discredited by real experts and proved that it was a fire. but it wasn't arson. it was a tragedy, a terrible crime. and that science was on the governor's desk the day of the execution. the governor's office had access to the new science in 2014 and would not stop the execution. that's the most egregious case so far because they killed an innocent man. >> john, i'm looking at the front page, you have written, i think it's a fiction book a year for what, decades, and have found fiction a powerful way to tell stories. why now go to non fiction? do you feel these are stories that can only be told through nonfiction, that you might reach different audiences through this method? >> truthfully, i could not create these stories. i couldn't make up this stuff. they're so bizarre, unfair,

disheartening. i can only go so far with fiction. i couldn't make these stories up. the fact they're true make them even more readable. people just can't believe these stories really happened. if it was fiction, you could say it's somebody's imagination, i just made them up. but the fact they're true gives them a much bigger impact. >> john, there's been reporting in "the new york times" and by propublica that claims you went too far on using their reporting about a murder case in texas. they've made for changes to the book. what's your response to their claims? >> i hate they've done that, but these stories, some are 20 years old. they have been the subject of books, magazine articles, documentary films. these are well-known cases in american criminal justice. they've been written about by a lot of people. so jim and i, mccloskey, we had a wealth of information to draw from. we used their sources, their books, magazine articles, their documentary films. that's what you do when you write nonfiction, you rely on other sources.

we give full credit to everybody, full acknowledgment, we say thanks. there are eight pages of acknowledgments in the back of the book, we name them, we used your stuff, we give you credit. we thought we had gone far enough, and we did go far enough. >> john, what do you find most rewarding about this book, nonfiction versus fiction? as you put the pen down, as you finish it up, as you get it published, what, for you, especially in this case, do you find most rewarding as an author? >> tough question. it's always great to finish a book. i've finished a lot of them now. this one took a long time. the nonfiction work is much more difficult, because of the research. with fiction, you can create a lot of stuff, and i'm in total control of everything i write.

nonfiction, you have to be accurate. we just talked about that. what would be gratifying here would be able to take credit for some real change, if something were to change. the landscape is changing. >> it is. >> there are fewer executions every year. there are fewer death verdicts every year. the death penalty is dying slowly in america. so, you know, maybe this helps a little bit. maybe this shows people that there's a better way to punish criminals than to kill them. >> and i'll tell you, it is changing, also, because some evangelicals, i remember pat robertson expressing skepticism about the death penalty in his final years, talking about -- talking about the death penalty and its inconsistencies and problems. the new book "framed" is on sale now, new york times best-selling author, john grisham, thank you so much. we appreciate you being here. >> thanks, joe, for having me.

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