grown on our farm, enjoyed at your table. (♪♪) ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. when we were last together right here, we were sharing with you some extraordinary breaking news. brand new reporting from "the

atlantic" on the disdain the ex-president and current republican presidential nominee has for the men and women in uniform. his unconcealed racism and authoritarian impulses. the title of that piece, "trump: i need the kind of generals that hitler had," was just the tip of the iceberg when it came to all the stunning new details about what trump said behind closed doors. that reporting coming 14 days ahead of the election. at the peak of a campaign season in which team harris and team trump are fighting for every single vote in the battleground states. it's a campaign where even if donald trump is a known quantity to most voters, most americans, there are certain stories and certain revelations that both sides understand can and will still make an impact, especially when those stories and revelations come from people who were in the room where it happened, once deep inside donald trump's orbit.

here's what friend of the broadcast pollster sarah longwell said when i asked her what kind of stories still make a difference. >> the generals. general mattis, general kelly. look, one of the things that i hear from voters in focus groups, especially swing voters, is that for the voters to whom it has broken through that donald trump calls our vets suckers and losers, that has an impact. i think we need more of these generals to come out and say we have to support her because he's such ai threat. that's somebody that voters will trust, who saw him up close. >> just hours after that release of the new reporting from "the atlantic" came out yesterday, a second bombshell. and it is exactly what sarah longwell spoke about in that clip. retired marine general john kelly, who served as donald trump's chief of staff for a year and a half, in his own words on tape sounding all of the alarms about donald trump's lack of character and basic fitness for the office.

john kelly sat down for three on the record interviews with nrkts "new york times" reporter mike schmidt. each answer that he gives is stunning on its own, but taken together that composite paints an alarming portrait of an ex-president. it is a warning for all of us to take donald trump seriously and literally when he talks about wanting to govern as a dictator. >> do you -- what do you think? do you think he's a fascist? >> well, looking at the definition of fascism. it's a far right authoritarian ultranationalist political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy. so certainly in my experience those are the kind of things

that he thinks would work better in terms of running america. you know, again, back to this issue of, you know, democracy is complicated, messy to operate, probably the worst kind of government there is except for all the other ones. i think churchill once said that. and again, our constitution, our founders built into the constitution and to the way our government operates, built in a lot of checks and balances and was -- didn't design the government to be streamlined and whatnot. so but certainly, the former president is in the far right area. he's certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators. he has said that.

so he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure. >> if he was left to his own devices, would he be a dictator? if he didn't have people around him. >> oh, i think he'd -- i think he'd love to be. i think he'd love to be just like he was in business. he could tell people to do things and they would do it. and not really bother too much about whether -- what the legalities were and whatnot. but again, i didn't know him before. so i can't really -- >> i mean, is he the biggest threat to the country that you've seen in your life out of all the threats? post-9/11, all these different things. >> i think he's certainly the only president that has all but rejected what america is all about and what makes america america in terms of our constitution, in terms of our values, the way we look at everything, to include family

and government. and he's certainly the only president that i know of that was -- certainly in my lifetime that was like that. he would be commented more than once that, you know, hitler did some good things too. of course if you know history, again, i think he's lacking in that. but if you know what, you know, hitler was all about, you'd be pretty hard to make an argument that he did anything good. >> so what would you -- what would you say when he said to you that hitler did a lot of good things? >> well, i'd tell him that. i said, you know, first of all, you should never say that. but if you knew what hitler was all about from the beginning to the end, everything he did was in support of his racist, fascist life, you know, philosophy, so that nothing he did you could argue was good. it was certainly not done for

the right reason. but he would occasionally say that. >> what would he say when you would lay that out to him? >> he'd just -- you know, that would be the end of the conversation usually. >> i'm not recommending anything to anybody. i'm just saying -- other than that when you're looking to vote for someone, regardless, you've got to -- you've got to look at the character and all of those kind of things and then start looking at the individual's policies. we can always -- you know, even if you're a conservative republican, you know, much of what's gone on the last 3 1/2 years hasn't been what you wanted to have happen to the country. but you know, we can get by it because you might have, you know, a republican come in in the future. but if a person's character isn't at least minimally

acceptable, then i think that person can do a lot more damage. we've got to -- i just wish, and i'll end with this, i just wish at the end of all of this, whoever wins, that that person and the leadership in the country, certainly the political leadership in washington to include the house and senate, that people say okay, let's take a breath. let's step back. this has been -- this has been really, really hard. let's try to come back together as americans, stop hating each other just because we have a difference of opinion on political issues. i just hope we do that somehow. i don't know if we will, though, but i hope we will. i hope whoever becomes the president will start that process. let's -- let's become friends again. >> importantly, there's only one candidate running on a message of stopping hating each other,

and it's not donald trump. the pushback to those three interviews and the reporting of them from donald trump and his campaign has been intense, has been personal, and it has been nasty. the campaign claiming that the stories general kelly tells in that taped interview are fabricated, that general kelly has, quote, beclowned himself. that's the kind of reaction that suggests what we all know and that the campaign clearly knows. it has been dealt a major political blow. here's former national security adviser john bolton, who worked with general kelly. >> the trump campaign has attacked john's credibility. in any comparison of what john kelly might say versus what donald trump might say about a particular event or what these munchkins on the trump campaign are saying about john kelly, you can take what john says to the bank. i am absolutely convinced. i didn't hear many, probably

most of these statements myself, but if john says that donald trump said them, i believe it i am implicitly. certainly this recitation of what he's done should be compelling to people not to vote for trump. >> should be compelling to people not to vote for trump. in remarks earlier today vice president kamala harris weighed in as well. >> this is a window into who donald trump really is. from the people who know him best. from the people who worked with him side by side in the oval office and in the situation room. and it is clear from john kelly's words that donald trump is someone who, i quote, certainly falls into the general definition of fascist. who in fact vowed to be a dictator on day one and vowed to use the military as his personal militia, to carry out his

personal and political vendettas. donald trump is increasingly unhinged and unstable. and in a second term people like john kelly would not be there to be the guardrails against his propensities and his actions. those who once tried to stop him from pursuing his worst impulses would no longer be there. and no longer be there to rein him in. so the bottom line is this. we know what donald trump wants. he wants unchecked power. the question in 13 days will be what do the american people want. thank you. >> that is indeed the question. a dire warning to voters about donald trump's lack of character and lack of fitness from his longest-serving chief of staff on the eve of the presidential election is where we start today. here at the table we're joined by mike schmidt, "the new york

times" reporter who spoke with general kelly in those taped interviews, and paul rieckhoff, host of the independent americans podcast, founder and ceo of independent veterans of america. thank you for the join yesterday from the baseball field. we're happy to see you today at the table. mike schmidt, how did these interviews come to be? >> i think that the major motivating factor for kelly was trump's recent comments about using the military domestically. kelly essentially made a deal with himself when he stopped serving as trump's chief of staff, and that deal was basically if trump said something that was wildly inaccurate that related to something that kelly was involved in then he would speak out and clarify the record. or if trump were to say something that was potentially damaging to the country and really troubling he would also speak out. and i have been trying to get john kelly to answer these questions in a forum like this

for a long time. but when kelly saw the comments trump made about using the military against americans, for kelly that was a red line. and i think that john kelly sees the divide between the military being something that defends the united states abroad and the military not being used on american citizens as something that is rooted in history that goes all the way back to george washington. i think that kelly, it's part of his ethos. i think that this was not something that he willingly did. i think he struggled with the fact that he himself -- he struggles with the same issue that bothers him about trump. he struggles with the fact that i'm a retired, uniformed military officer weighing in on something related to a political event. this is someone who hates partisan politics. but i think was so bothered by the comments about using the

military domestically that he felt a willingness to say -- to say essentially four things. one, i'm not endorsing anyone. i'm not telling you who to vote for or who i'm voting for. i am saying that i think character and fitness is really important if not more important than policy. and i think you should know what i saw up close, you should have some flavor of that. and i think the -- obviously a lot has been written about kelly. kelly gave a statement to cnn a year ago. a lot was written in "the atlantic" about kelly. a lot's been written in books about kelly by myself and by colleagues at the "times" and such. the difference here is the audio. the difference here is the audio. and as a reporter doing this, you know, for several years you start to realize that the written text, while really important and the bedrock of what we do, is -- only goes so

far. and if you're trying to constantly find a new way to tell a story and to demystify the world to people, you have to look for other ways to come up with it. and in this case it's hearing it from kelly. there's nothing that kelly says that is too different than if you've been following the trump story, the understanding of the trump story. but here you have someone who is going on the record, who you can hear in his own voice. and i think that's the difference. i think that's what makes this different than a text story. >> and agreeing to be recorded and share the audio, just explain how that came to be and where you were when he first agreed to be recorded. >> i just asked him i said can i record this? and he said it was okay to record it. and then i came back to him and i said look, i said we've recorded this, i think it's

really important that not just people read what you have to say but that they hear it because i think that, you know, kelly is bothered by the fact that trump has denied "losers and suckers" and that there was an effort in 2020 to push back on the "atlantic" story. and kelly didn't even really realize it at the time, that the trump campaign had such a coordinated effort where they got these different people together to say they never heard this. it was only a few years ago that kelly actually figured that out. and it really bothered him that trump denied it. because i think to kelly it was an awful thing to say and in some ways i think it questioned kelly's credibility. so i said to him, look, people need to hear it from you. it's a different thing to read something than it is to hear it. and we're going to do a story on this but we're also going to publish the audio of it.

>> and he said okay? >> he said okay. >> and then he does two more recorded interviews with you. let me play some more o'because i think the important thing about "losers and suckers" is to kelly that isn't even the most odious thing he says on the topic. i'll play that. >> but he basically said to you that those who died for america on the battlefield were losers and suckers. and he said it more than once. >> yes. but he would -- but he would say -- it would always -- something else would get him going, oftentimes again mccain. he talked about -- it was like almost a recording but the point is anyways he would say it at times sometimes unexpectedly but he never could wrap his arms around why people would serve the country in uniform. what was in it for them. i think he just could never wrap his arms around why people would do things selflessly.

what's in it for them? i think there's a much more powerful -- but that's just me. >> what's the significance of his lack of understanding of the entire concept of public service in kelly's view? >> i think it's that trump doesn't understand sacrifice and he doesn't understand a dedication to the country. it's actually rooted in i think what kelly would say is that trump doesn't have an appreciation for the constitution. he doesn't have an appreciation that if you're in the government or if you're in the military you have taken an oath to the constitution and that you don't serve an individual. and this starts with trump early on in his presidency talking about "my generals." i think that made the generals very uneasy. but it was the idea that the generals were loyal to their oath to the constitution and they weren't loyal to trump and that the larger idea that there were people who made major sacrifices for this country,

that gave up limbs, that gave up their lives in defense of defending the united states and kelly says including defending donald trump. and look, the thing that cannot be ignored in all of this is the most tragic part about this, and that is that john kelly is the most senior american military officer to lose a child on the battlefield in the post-9/11 wars. and so you don't just have donald trump saying these things about sacrifice as he's walking through arlington national cemetery with kelly through section 60 where, you know, kelly's son is buried. he's saying this to kelly. he's not just a general who was out on the battlefield. this is a general who gave the ultimate sacrifice to the country in his son. and i don't know -- i still don't know if i'll ever be able to wrap my head around all of

that. and -- you know, i don't know. >> paul. >> it's gut check time for america. and john kelly is delivering a gut punch to donald trump that will resonate. and i think it's so significant that he's finally come out and spoken for people to hear his voice. this is what we've been waiting for. the only other shoe to drop might be mattis. mattis hasn't spoken publicly i don't think on the record extensively recently, and that would be another body blow to trump in the final hours that would particularly resonate with independents in key swing states, many of whom are veterans. but i keep stepping back and watching how much this must be hurting because they're attacking him so ferociously. i just came from another network where a partisan governor just cracked on john kelly like he was nobody. they're crapping on the former chairman of the joint chiefs, former secretary of defense. even dick cheney. they've all lined up in a circle

around trump and they're saying the same thing. and john kelly's son, robert, was killed by a land mine in afghanistan. and that has got to be what's motivating him in this moment to ring this bell for all americans. i'm a father of two boys. the idea of them joining and losing them overseas is incomprehensible to me. but if that did happen nothing would stand in the way of me telling the truth and communicating the sacrifice of my son to the american people. and that's what he's doing. and it's hitting hard. and he needs to go further. if kamala harris wants to deliver a closing argument next week, haveim there. have milley there. have mcchrystal there. have dick cheney there. have mark esper there. have everybody in the defense community that has served with trump and is now opposed to him and remind him -- remind everybody that they're gone and that if trump is elected -- i talked to tom bowman on my podcast tomorrow, the pentagon reporter for npr, and he says that folks have told him that they're going to leave the pentagon, they're going to

retire if trump gets elected. the brain drain we will experience in our military is like nothing we've seen. if this guy gets elected. except for the folks who will stay inside to try to do what kelly and mattis and others do, which is keep him in check. imagine a world where trump didn't have mattis and kelly and all these guys around him. that's the world we're going to have if he gets elected. >> mike and paul aren't going anywhere. there's so much more. there's more to play for you. there's more to discuss. there are more people to have this conversation with. also ahead, as we've been discussing, general john kelly is not the only military official or voice to condemn donald trump. a look at some of those other warnings in the context of what we're hearing from john kelly. and we'll discuss whether trump's public disparaging and open hostility toward our armed forces is breaking through with the voters paul's talking about. and later on the broadcast, we will show you in their own words the republican capitulation to donald trump over the years. again, we'll let the words that they uttered do the storytelling.

how the ex-president and aspiring dictator has been able to hijack the spines and the moral compasses. and tim alberta describes it as the souls of many members of the republican party. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. a quick. don't go anywhere today. powermo. it has a built-in solution that breaks down dirt on contact. plus, it's 360-degree swivel head cleans up along baseboards and even behind the toilet. bye, bye bucket. with the swiffer powermop. i'm a lifelong republican and i voted for trump twice, but i can't do it again. trump wants a national sales tax on imported goods. it'll make everything more expensive for regular people, all while giving tax breaks to billionaires. you're rich as hell. we're going to give you tax cuts. kamala harris is for regular people. she wants a tax cut for 100 million americans, so we keep more of our hard-earned money. i'm a proud republican, but this year, i'm voting for kamala harris. ff pac is responsible for the content of this ad.

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does he have disdain for the disabled? >> well, certainly his not wanting to be seen with amputees, amputees that lost their limbs in defense of this country fighting for every american, to -- him included, to protect them, that didn't want

to be seen with them. that's -- that's an interesting perspective for the commander in chief to have. >> why didn't he want to be seen with them? >> he would just say, look, it doesn't look good for me. so anyways. i don't know. i'm not a psychiatrist. if you're a psychiatrist i guess you could take a stab at some of these questions, but i'm not. >> again, reporting on general milley has also included a lot of these anecdotes that trump didn't want to be seen with the men and women who haven't just served our country but have literally left parts of themselves on the battlefield. i know general milley and his wife work a lot on the invisible injuries, which is a huge part of the veterans that will be making a decision in 14 days.

but kelly seems almost -- you have to ask a question -- the question is as notable as the answer. does he have disdain for the disabled? talk about that exchange. >> i mean, i -- look, this is an example of things have been reported about what trump said to kelly about amputees and about things that trump has said to other military officials about it. but to hear it from kelly i just thought was something else that needed to be layered on to this and needed to be explained. and again, not something that totally changes our understanding but something that when you hear it from kelly it just resonates in a different way and it helps explain the story in a different way. and that's why there's a lot of, you know, unsavory questions in there that are difficult questions to ask about disdain for the disabled.

does trump have any empathy? >> what's the answer to that? >> no, he doesn't have any empathy. you know, asking questions about what trump said about hitler. these are all pretty awful things to be asking about and to be talking about. and i think if kelly had his way he would never really have to talk about them. but i think that when he sees the comments about using the military and he looks at the potential consequences of trump coming back i think he thought that he -- i don't know if he thought he had no choice, but i thought that that was a strong motivating factor for him to do what he did. >> kelly is aware of the absolute immunity donald trump would have for official acts, as is one of the former mueller prosecutors. lu talk about how that turbocharges their fears? >> what kelly says is that sure,

trump might be able to have immunity from different things if he comes back. kelly has an understanding of the supreme court decision. but he says if you work for him you won't. and he talks about how mark meadows got himself into a lot of trouble in going along with what trump wanted and that if you are someone who works for trump, kelly says, you know, trump wants people -- he doesn't care if people who work for him break the law. and they could suffer consequences that he wouldn't because he could be potentially immune from them. and i think that -- and this is a nuanced thing and there are some people that would disagree with this. but i think that there's a difference between the first two years of the presidency and the second two years of the presidency. the first two years of the

presidency are not textbook years of any presidency and there's obviously a lot of things that didn't go well, to put it nicely. but there is an unshackled nature to trump's behavior in the second two years, and kelly takes note of that. and look, kelly believed he was a force for keeping trump on the tracks. and the thing that i find most remarkable about kelly in this, there's obviously a lot that i find remarkable, is that if kelly could have, i think he would have stayed longer. some people say well, why didn't you leave? and kelly would say i wish i could have stayed longer and that he left too early. and even -- this is crazy. even during covid kelly wanted to go back. i think kelly wanted to go back. because kelly thought that he could potentially keep trump on

the tracks as the country was dealing with this massive thing. and obviously john kelly doesn't think very highly of donald trump and had a very brutal time doing it, but i think he would have gone back -- like i think if trump had called him in the middle of covid and said would you come back, i think kelly would have come back, even knowing everything about it. i think i would have stayed all four years if he could have -- if he could have taken it. >> i mean, milley does. i have to sneak in one more break, but i don't want to lose this important revelation that again has been reported but we've never heard it in the words of a general who heard donald trump say that being around amputees and wounded veterans, quote, doesn't look good for me. so i'll give you a second to mull that. we'll all be right back. we'll all be right back. make yn those epic hikes with friends. step back out there with fasenra. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma

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have left blood thinners behind with watchman. watchman is a safe, minimally—invasive, one—time implant that reduces stroke risk and bleeding worry, for life. ♪♪ watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime. so the question the country will have an answer to is who do voters believe, the serial liar with a very public record of what is most generously speaking autocrat envy or everyone else? it's not just general john kelly, after all. he may be the latest. but you can hardly throw a stone up in the air without it landing on a member of donald trump's cabinet who expressed a similar sort of warning. general kelly isn't even the only general to have had such thoughts. as we've been discussing, former chairman of the joint chiefs mark milley told bob woodward

trump is, quote, fascist to the core and, quote, the most dangerous person to the country. a short time later former secretary of defense jim mattis reportedly told bob woodward he agreed with that assessment. and there are the ten retired military leaders, generals and admirals, who have endorsed vice president kamala harris, they did that last month, followed in short order by 700 current and former national security leaders who did the same in an open letter. just listen to what military leaders had to say about the disgraced ex-president. >> 31 years i spent in the army i didn't know if my boss was democrat or republican, i didn't know, i didn't care. but since 6 january things have changed. insurrection -- i said now's the time to step up. i mean, what are we going to do? we're going to wait until the jack bootes are marching down the street and the brown shirts come rolling out, our kids get enrolled in trump youth? is that the time to start getting involved? of course not. we need to step up now. >> you have a former president now running for the presidency again.

you seem to have core character questions. is he fit for office or not? >> let's be honest. why would a retired military officer come on to endorse his opponent? >> you tell me. >> because i think character is very important. and so i'm voting for character. i'm voting for kamala harris. >> joining our coverage, retired u.s. marine corps general lieutenant colonel founder of democratic majority action pac amy mcgrath joins us. also joining us political strategist, msnbc senior analyst, the man who has become my human xanax in these days. matt dowd is here. paul, i want you to pick up on that last bit of audio we played from general kelly about trump feeling like being around wounded warriors and amputees, quote, doesn't look good for me. >> it's all about him. he's all about self. and it's the opposite of the leadership values that we were all trained in in the military. that's why so many of these retired generals are calling out his character. leadership at its core is about

sacrifice. and that's something that trump fails to do. you can't help but also compare it to the fact that his kids are not that far away in age from kelly's kids. his kids could have served. his kids could have died in afghanistan. and they didn't. so it draws that contrast. but the contempt he has for the disabled, for just about everybody is an insight into who he truly is. but it's also really, really important because he continues to be focused on such important -- strangely important -- like vanessa guillen. vanessa guillen, who he calls detestable things, sparked a movement. she was murdered brutally at fort hood. she's a woman. she's a woman of color. right? who was brutally murdered that sparked a movement that is a important pivotal figure in the transformation of our military. and he says that about her? and he says this about wounded people? the thing i want people to remember is the military can feel far off, it can feel like other people's kids, it can feel like the other but i want to

remind people if he feels that way about us how do you think he feels about you? the guy or gal of an average job where you're just working to make a living, if he feels this way about america's superheroes how does he feel about you? and i hope that's something that folks remember in the next couple days when they go to the polls. >> amy, what explains the abundance of evidence that trump has disdain for the men and women of the military in particular those who die, who he describes as losers and suckers, in particular those who spend time in captivity, john mccain? in particular those who are shot down. george h.w. bush. in particular the amputees. >> yeah, clearly donald trump doesn't get it. and one of the things that general kelly said really stuck with me. is he said you know, donald trump has rejected what america's all about. just to take one of those things that you just listed off, prisoners of war, you know, it's

operatored in "the atlantic" now that donald trump said that prisoners of war should just be left behind. i mean, anybody that served in the military, you have to understand how offensive that is. that is against our very core beliefs. but this is a long pattern with donald trump. he's been disrespecting the military for a very long time. and frankly disrespecting american values. i mean, he is the opposite of everything that i learned and was taught at the u.s. naval academy and everything i learned about leadership and character in the united states marine corps. the key is getting that message out to voters. >> matt dowd, tell me your thoughts about this story and its impact on the race as it is today. >> sure. one, i just want to take up what amy was just saying, is i think what offends him so much by the

military is because it provides a lens into who donald trump really is. it casts a light on sort of the -- just the base corrupt, you know, disgusting nature of donald trump who does nothing except for self. and a person in the military, especially someone that's given a sacrifice, lost a limb, lost a loved one, it shines such a bright light on who donald trump is, and he knows that. he knows fundamentally those men and women when he's exposed to them make him -- makes the badness of him even more apparent to people. so that's why i think of it. i mean, i think this is one of those moments in a campaign that happens at the end that i think is more powerful than probably any political ad or any other thing that could have happened. i actually think this could be determinative. i remember in the wistful days of the 2000 campaign, just to give you a sort of insight into

what can happen, when the dui for george w. bush appeared on the thursday before election day -- now, think about this. a 24-year-old dui. i mean, those were the days when a dui could actually have impact on conservatives and republicans because character mattered at that point. flash forward now today. this. much obviously dramatically worse, dramatically completely out of sync. that dui information -- and this is why i counsel people to observe what this could do. it's not going to shift people from a trump voter to a harris voter. what it's likely to do is the same thing that happened with the dui. which happened with the dui, and i know this because i put three polls in the field after that happened in ohio, florida and michigan. and what changed was people's motivation to vote. there was about a 6% or 7% drop among conservatives and republicans to vote for george w. bush. and it took michigan from a tie state to a state we were losing

in a matter of 72 hours. it took ohio from a comfortable state to a state we were barely winning. and it took florida from a state that we were winning by one or two to a state that was tied. all of that happened over the course of three or four days. and again, what it didn't do was shift a vote from one to -- from al gore to george -- or from george w. bush to al gore. what it did was it demotivated people that had suspicions about the character of george w. bush then but donald trump now. and i think one thing people ought to keep in mind, why this could be so important in a one or two-point shift in some of these key states, is that 5% or 6% of people that are voting for donald trump today do not like him and do not think he has the character to be president but they're voting for him. those people i think will be fundamentally impacted by the news that's come out in the last 24 hours. >> all right. no one's going anywhere. we need to sneak in a quick break.

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folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution.

we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. we learned that donald trump's former chief of staff john kelly, a retired four-star general, confirmed that while donald trump was president he said he wanted generals like adolf hitler had. donald trump said that because he does not want a military that

is loyal to the united states constitution. he wants a military that is loyal to him. >> joining our coverage, former army ranger, democratic congressman jason crow of colorado. he served three combat tours in iraq and afghanistan. thank you for being here, congressman. we've been on the air almost an hour. we haven't dealt with the hitler of it all. your reaction to a candidate for president again who sees something aspirational in hitler. >> well, there's a lot of track record and history for us to look at, not just this recent revelation by john kelly who as you point out is not only a highly decorated former four-star general but donald trump's longest acting chief of staff, somebody who worked with him day and night, was the closest to him. said this man is unfit, a danger to our democracy and our country. that's pretty stunning. that's never actually happened before in the history of our nation. you look back, and this is a

person who after the charlottesville riots called white supremacists and neo-nazis, you know, very fine people and people on both sides. this is somebody who constantly shows an affinity to autocrats and dictators, brutal dictators who murder and oppress their own people. donald trump is not fit for office in so many ways. but one of the most fundamental right here is he has a disdain for democracy and he has a disdain for any check on his power. and what makes that so dangerous right now is as bad as his first term was in 2016 to 2020, a lot of the checks that kept him from his worst impulses have been eroded. checks within the republican party, checks within congress, checks within his own inner circle. he is now surrounded by complete loyalists who will be anything and everything that he asks them to do, and it's a very dangerous situation. >> as someone who served combat

tours abroad, do you share general kelly's alarm about using the military here on american soil against americans? >> well, i'm deeply alarmed by that. that's everything that i swore an oath to defend against that type of overreach of power, right? a lot of people sign up to seven their country to go overseas to protect their nation so people at home don't have to deal with those threats and violence, and that's why i served. the idea that the military would be weaponized by somebody who says he wants to be a dictator, those are not my words, they are donald trump's words, is astonishing, not only to our military service members who swear an oath and put great trust in our commander in chief, but to americans as well. >> amy, same question. >> well, umm, you know, it's

always astounding to me that we have a major nominee of a major political party who has such disdain for democratic values, who has such disdain for our american military. i'm still shocked by this. i think, you know, and one of the things that i'm really focused on, because i think about this a lot, how did we get here? how is it that 50% or slightly less of america thinks it's okay to vote for this man? and i really think, you know, this message of he is unfit to be commander in chief can break through, and you know, you played that at the beginning of your segment today, this afternoon, where sarah romwell has said this message, when it breaks through, works. and that is why i'm focused so

much on getting in the swing states and making sure that voters know that 40 of trump's 44 cabinet members and the national security arena will not support him. making sure that voters know what general mattis and general kelly and general, umm, all of the generals have said. this is so important. >> all right. we're going to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back on the other side. k break. we'll be right back on the other side that leap in our hearts into something we can see and hold. etsy.

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you said something that caught my ear, this story could be determinative in the battlegrounds. tell me how that comes to be? >> sure. just one thing i want to add is, not only is this shocking for donald trump, to me it's maybe even more shock thing story is, i haven't seen a single republican who supported donald trump coming up today and say thing is a bridge too far after what they're doing is attacking general kelly instead of actually confronting donald trump, which is an indictment of the republican party. i think we're in a race, which right now, and i have yet told you this, right now is in favor of the vice president by two or three points, and in a breaking story like this, which i think feeds the best argument that the vice president has, which is don't take my word for it, take the word of the people that work for donald trump. he's unfit, he's a danger to america. take the partisan politics out

of it. before the general kelly news broke, but with the general kelly news, that best argument is now completely underlined with this new news, and if i were the harris campaign, i would push this for the next 11 days, because i actually think it can move enough voters to make a difference of two or three points in all those seven states. >> and pushing it is all -- made all the more sort of credible by the existence of the tapes. thank you for the interview and for your reporting and for being here with us. coming up next, we'll turn to the people standing in contrast to general kelly, the folks matt just name checked, the many, many republicans who know better but refuse to speak out against donald trump. that story's next. t donald trump that story's next. use you love . not spreadsheets... you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our matching platform lets you spend less time searching and more time connecting with candidates.

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the united states constitution, and that oath must mean something. tonight, i say this to my republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible -- there will come a day when donald trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain. >> will remain forever. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. sit a phenomenon that will be studied for years, for decades, but the political level and human behavioral level, how republican after republican after republican after republican has abandoned their morals, their previously stated standards, their compass, to openly embrace the criminally convicted, grab them in the bleep, twice impeached, ex-president donald trump. republicans, with the exception of a precious few, have

seemingly, happily, and eagerly handed donald trump keys to the castle of the political party that once stood for and saw itself as believing in law and order and believing in strict adherence to the constitution, and cherishing character. members of the republican party have now hitched themselves to all of donald trump's vulgarity, all of his autocratic impulses, his stated desire to use the military on american citizens. his flagrant misogyny, his open racism, and his appetite for violence. going so far as inciting a deadly insurrection against them, against the u.s. capitol. in contrast to the courage displayed by general john kelly, who felt driven to speak out, these men and women know deep down the danger that donald trump poses to the country. they know exactly how his policies and his utterances run

antithetical to the country and to the constitution. they have said it. take donald trump's hand-picked running mate, senator jd vance, who made a 180 degree switch. >> i'm a never trump guy, i never liked im. i have the easiest job in politics, because i just have to remind people that donald trump was the president of peace and prosperity. >> and there's kevin mccarthy, former speaker. >> i've had it with this guy. [ inaudible ] -- nobody should defend him. i was for president trump. >> and speaking of declownment, here's lindsay graham. >> he's a

xenophobic, religious big got. this is the toughest guy i've ever met. he's the modern version of teddy roosevelt. i'm sorry. those are the group of folks who ran against trump in 2016 and even earlier this year, but when they realized they weren't going to defeat him, they jumped on the trump train full throttle. >> i bet you all know, you all have friends, you all have friends that are thinking about voting for donald trump. friends do not let friends vote for conartists. by giving voice to everyday americans, president trump has not just transformed our party, he has inspired a movement. >> donald, you're a sniffling coward, and leave heidi the hell alone. god bless donald j. trump. >> donald trump was totally

unhinged, unhinged. >> i'll start by making one thing perfectly clear -- donald trump has my strong endorsement, period. >> why? it's not just them. very influential voices and right wing media, also hide their disdain for the ex-president from their viewers, from republican voters, while touting him proudly and condemning people like me and anyone who criticizes trump on their airways. we know from the dominion lawsuit that tucker carlson describes donald trump this way in a text message to his colleagues. he is a demonic force, a destroyer, but he's not going to destroy us, tucker carlson texted. i've been thinking about this every day for four years.

not the same message he pushes publicly. >> this is the most responsible, unifying behavior of a leader i think i've ever seen. i do think the entire point from the famous escalator ride nine years ago until today of donald trump's life has been to remind us of one fact, which is, a leader's duty is to his people, to his country, and to no other. >> and there are some others like minority leader mitch mcconnell who publicly say they'll support the republican party's nominee no matter what he does, but save the most damning assessments for donald trump for the confines of private, thankfully recorded interviews. in a new book, mitch mcconnell describes donald trump as "stupid" as well as being "ill tempered, a despicable human being and narcissist." you're all so embarrassing. but it's important for anyone out there still trying to decide

what to do. who is trying to make up your mind with 13 days to go. be careful, be careful who you believe, because all those men i showed you, today they're for donald trump. but they weren't, they hated him so much they called him demonic and despicable and america's hitler. people may not say out loud in the next 13 days what they think. it's where they start the hour. msnbc columnist and contributor charlie sykes is here. also joining us is writer and editor amanda carpenter. with me at the table for the hour, host of the podcast on brand, donny deutsch is here. charlie, let's start with you. >> it's always interesting talking to republicans who accuse never trumpers of abandoning their principles, i wish that shame was a more powerful force in our politics today, that any of those

individuals would look at that, look at those comments and feel ashame, would be embarrassed about what they are willing to embrace now, that they weren't willing to embrace before. umm, but it's interesting that you play, you start out with liz cheney's quote about, if you go along with this, you your dishonor will give with you forever. start today, republican after another is finding a way to look away from or rationalize the reports that donald trump admired hitler. you know, we remember eight years ago, after the "access hollywood" video came out, that there were some republicans who still had enough shame and enough pride and enough principle that they were willing to back away. today, as we are hearing from the people closest to trump's presidency about what a danger he is, not one republican has the fortitude to step back and say, this is deeply troubling. i'm off the train.

so it's a very clarifying day. i certainly agree with matthew dowd that this could have an impact on a small sliver of the electorate that has been shaking their head and wondering whether or not they're going to put up with this for another four years. >> amanda, what's amazing to me, is the disdain for the republican voter, the disgust for the trump base, that they will say in private, to reporters with tape recorders, trump is a despicable human being. he's a narcissist. that's what mitch mcconnell really thinks of him. america's hitler, cultural heroin, that's what jd vance really thinks of him. someone told him the 25th amendment was too slow of a process to rid the country of him, that's what kevin mccarthy thinks of him. and then go out like it's north korean state tv and say the opposite in front of cameras. what is that about those men? >> it's -- it's -- their

conscious has been broken bipartisanship. i mean, this is what you see again and again in, you know, when you played the clip of liz cheney talking about dishonor and the clip of mcconnell, i was just thinking there were excerpts in this book coming out about his career how he cried in front of his staff after january 6th, because he was so upset about what they had to go through that day. his wife resigned over what happened. people don't really talk about that. but there was another point in the book where he also cried because he was so happy because he had broken the record for being the longest serving republican senate leader. so which one was more important to him? clearly, it's being part of the republican party, being part of a club, being part of the tribe, right? he can look at the situation and see this is a terrible thing that happened. donald trump isn't qualified to

be president. but when he was in a position to do something about it, after january 6th, he did not go along with convicting him. he as senate majority leader couldn't convince and deliver the votes for republicans to convict him, we would not be in that situation. he chose otherwise, because he thought the partisanship was more important. so that's just -- it's really hard to grapple with, especially when you think about him sitting, you know, maybe it a es a little personal because i know what those rooms are like. i can't imagine what those staffers went through that day. he cried in front of his staff, and then turned around and supported the guy who continues to threaten to put the u.s. military to police our streets, to go after the enemies within. and so, when you think about dishonor, was it worth it, mitch mcconnell? was it worth it to be the longest serving senate republican leader if this is what you leave the country with?

look at the biography that's being published of you. read the title. it's incredible. it's a great title, "the price of power." we're suffering that price in this election. it may turn out okay, but man, this is tough. this is tough stuff to grapple with. >> umm, i think for voters, being angry at the elites is very powerful. being economically anxious even more powerful. being treated like a stouge, that is too dumb to know that a politician calling trump america's hitler is now trying to sell you the toxic poisonous dog food is not going to take away the millions of people that will vote for trump, but might determine whether or not people go out there who are on the fence about him. >> yeah. here's the thing, and i'm going to bring this back to the piece on kelly, i'm bringing them

together. so kelly comes out, his chief of staff, a general, a selfless man, and says, you know, like trump said, why can't i have more generals like hitler? hitler did some good things. trump talks about turning the military on people. i'll say people voting for trump, good people, nice people, my friends voting for trump, voting to have -- there's one issue, maybe immigration, maybe israel, it may be inflation, whether they're right or wrong has nothing to do with it. what if trump came with this, the price of freedom, of democracy, talking about putting the military on his own people or the hitler comments. they go i don't believe it. oh, it's the media. no it's john kelly saying it. do you think he's making it up?

i don't believe it. i go, if you believe it, would you still vote for him? well, no. but i don't believe it. and part of it is, they're not even seeing it. you know, i sent the kelly piece to two friends, and it's a combination of not hearing it, and even if they hear it, their belief structure is this can't happen. and they're wrong, and they're going to be responsible if he gets elected. >> charlie sykes, i don't consume much fox news now, but it had a kinship and association with military life. military families. some of the untold stories really about life at home. i think there's a responsibility for people who led that charge, men like sean hannity. i think brian kilmeade has written half a dozen books that are history adjacent, if you will. there's a responsibility to tell the truth about what kind of commander in chief, at a

minimum, donald trump was based on the word of a general whose own son died fighting in afghanistan. >> let's stick with that for a moment. one of the conversations i've had with people, what will it take to get the trump voter to change their mind or move away? and donny is right, part of the problem is breaking through these silos like fox news. this story is not going to penetrate unless it's wall-to-wall on television, people are seeing and hearing these words in their living rooms. but one of the things that would be very powerful, and i try to imagine talking to a trump adjacent friend and saying, okay, this guy over here is a decorated marine general whose son died in combat serving his country, and he's worked with donald trump and he has something that he wants to tell you about donald trump. do you think that person would listen?

i think they would. i think that they might take it to heart, if somehow you could make that connection. because fox news, the right, donald trump have wrapped themselves in this mantle of patriotism and strength and the military, and what we're learning is not just his contempt for the constitution and american values, that mike schmitt is talking about, but also his deep contempt and disdain for the men and women who served this country, who have been injured or killed or captured. so i do think there is a moral responsibility. if you care about these things, tell the story. and this goes double or triple for the people who worked in the white house. if you actually knew that donald trump posed this kind of a danger and you're nearing the end of your career, don't you have a moral obligation to share that information with the american people? isn't that the essence of duty and patriotism? >> i think it is, and i think

the problem with bubbles, right, is that donny, you have your circle, a lot of rich people. if rich people chose presidents, they would have had a president kerry or a president gore. rich people don't determine the election outcomes. i do think there's an intangible thing that we have to grapple with. the fear of trump is a tool of trump's arsenal. and i think the way to pop the trump balloon, his saddest days were the ten days that everyone was covering the bad-ass days of the kamala harris candidacy, when he burst onto the scene and something that he's been able to sustain. but just to make clear, again, not my view, these are views about whose fault january 6th really is. from cnn, in a series of reposts

on twitter, donald trump's campaign manager shared comments calling january 6th an insurrection that was fueled by trump's baseless election lies. some of those posts have since been deleted from his twitter feed, but cnn was able to review them on the internet archive way back machine, which archives internet web pages. in a statement to cnn, trump's campaign manager said his retweets on january 6th were not supportive statements. "retweets and likes are not endorsements. i'm focused on winning the election two weeks from now." he's lying now. he was telling the truth when he described the january 6th insurrection as an insurrection and blamed donald trump's lies. i mean, just the cynicism of these people lying to their own voters, not believing that their guy is good or decent or

honorable or not responsible for an insurrection. that is the story, as much as anything that fuels donald trump's support in this country. i would ask you to stick around. there's much more on this stark disconnect between what donald trump's enablers say in private on capitol hill and to journalists with tape recorders and what they say on the campaign trail. also ahead, reporter bob woodruff will be our guest. his new book reveals the thinking of more retired generals. like jim mattis and mark milley, what they saw first hand in the ex-president. and news breaking in the last hour. the justice department's public integrity section sent a warning to elon musk's america pac that has won -- sorry to be distracted by what tim walz calls a skipping dip shit. the doj has warned musk's

america pac that his $1 million sweep stakes to registered voters in swing states may violate federal law. federal law prohibits paying people to register to vote. the america pac contest allowing entrants to sign a petition supporting the first and second amendments, and then enter a drawing for $1 million, the prize, is only open to registered voters in certain swing states, including pennsylvania. it's unclear from this reporting what, if any, action doj might take. "deadline: whitehouse" continues after a short break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere. blood thinners behind... ...for life. we've cut our stroke risk and said goodbye to our bleeding worry. with the watchman implant. watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime.

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so important that, you know, we take an oath, but that also fundamentally you had to have people of character. and donald trump has proven he's not one of those people by his actions. if you wanted to hire somebody to babysit your kids, you should. make that guy the president of the united states. >> liz cheney and vice president kamala harris moderated by our dear friend charlie sykes. i want to come to you amanda about our kids and their behavior. one of the things that parents talk about incessantly is the phones and the screens. one of the things that all schools do is they try to manage it. my son has to put his phone in a box when he walks into school. and the conversations and some of the -- it's called digital

citizenship, and it's wonderful, teaching them that a text or tweet all that stuff is forever. but i have read some of these sort of codes of conduct. donald trump violates every single one. there's all these things that are out there, again, it's not a story i've ever covered on the show but a conversation i've had with dozens of moms and dads. and the idea, you know, for trump to have all the support he has is twisted and tied in a whole bunch of stuff, anti-elites, anti-media, economic anxiety, economic despair, anger and rage at anyone in charge of anything ever, and it's real. and, and, and that shouldn't be looked down by anyone. it's certainly never disparaged by kamala harris, who has shown a real understanding why people might be attracted to him. but we should not look down on a majority of americans who do know that an oath means something, who do know that grabbing between the legs is reprehensible. who do know that women dying in pregnancy and childbirth is not

the way we want to be as a country. who do know that having members of the supreme court with absolutely no standards, no ethics and no transparency is a bridge too far. and i wonder what you think of the sort of state of mind as we head into these last two weeks? >> well, it sort of makes me what i hear from a lot of my, you know, republicans i encounter in my everyday life who say -- or just default to the idea that they are voting for donald trump because of his policies. and what's so hard about that is that there is this belief that you can separate the policy from things like decency and character, and even democracy. but like those are the baselines to get to any kind of policy. how can you take immigration for example. either you may share concern about the border, want tough border enforcement, but can you trust donald trump and the people that he will appoint to carry out those endorsement

operations with the care and dignity that is actually required to do it in a safe and humane way? the answer is no, because it's a character question. can you trust donald trump to go on the world stage and uphold our american values and not think that he's possibly double dealing behind closed doors or trying to leverage the ukrainian president to dig up dirt on joe biden? no, because that already happened. so that is why things like code of conduct, that's why we teach it to our children, it's why we should want it in our leaders. and it becomes especially important when you have to uphold our democratic values, because our laws are only as good as the enforcement, right? we have learned through the trump administration that so much of this relies on norms and essentially trusting each other to carry out these duties. and so that's what it comes down

to. >> donny, i think the most determinative thing may not even be a story. what we've been waiting for is here. the documents with the new evidence about donald trump's alleged criminality on january 6th have been released. we have all the information in front of us. what people need, what the pro-democracy coalition needs most today is a little ted lasso. what my new york mets got after they lost in the first five games and had a losing record. >> i know you're struggling with that. >> very much. but the idea that you can decide and you can will something better is perhaps the biggest x factor in the election. how do you communicate that? >> it's -- there's a weird irony. there's two pieces to it. you almost have to play like -- act like you're behind but play like -- you know, democrats, we are pro-democracy.

karl rove said, we're going to win. i think that's got to be a little of this, like for the mets, you've got to believe. you have to believe in goodness and you have to believe that the good guys win. in the good guys don't win and guys like trump win, guys like trump, a bad guy, a bad human being, an indecent soul by every measure, guys like that don't win in this country. and you've got to believe that, and i believe it in my heart. >> and the point of the montage is that the people out there serving as verifiers for trump, charlie sykes, hate him privately. >> right. i mean, there are a lot of voters who, as donny mentioned, will say i don't believe this or i don't know this or i haven't heard this. these folks know, they've seen it and believe it and supporting him anyway. i think that's what's important. they -- they understand what the threat is, and they're doing it any way.

you know, this whole question of the president as role model and the message he sends, e remember back in the '90s when conservatives had this mantra about character matters and what message are we sending our kids? yet in the last nine years, there's been this incredible disconnect where, you know, to liz cheney's point, if you wouldn't have hired him to babysit your kid, actually, you wouldn't hire him to work at mcdonald's or be on the board of director of your company, you wouldn't put him in a position of trust in the military, in schools, in any institution, and yet, you know, he's poised to possibly be elected president of the united states. there's this disconnect. and also, in the lives and the minds of parents who are raising children, i have three children and five grand children, and you want to teach them how to model virtue and sportsmanship and honesty. donald trump doesn't do any of that.

so all the parents out there, they have to ask, you know, what are the policies that are more important than the message that donald trump is sending to your children? >> the only thing i would add, it's not that you wouldn't hire him, you couldn't. you cannot be in the military as a convicted felon. you cannot be a dog walker in manhattan with convicted felonies. thank you all for this conversation. when we come back, before today's bombshell new reporting in "the new york times" about former trump chief of staff general john kelly, we heard other warnings from other generals who had a front row seat to donald trump's presidency. some of those warnings are reported by a new book "war" and bob woodward be will our guest. don't go anywhere. e will our gut don't go anywhere. e this. febreze has a microchip to control scent release so it smells first-day fresh for 50 days. 50 days!? and its refill reminder light means i'll never miss a day of freshness.

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if we do our jobs as journalists, every voter will know that, regardless of who they ultimately vote for. they will know that, in the view of general john kelly, a vote for donald trump is a vote for fascism. something you can hear with your own ears. donald trump's longest serving chief of staff, a former four-star marine general and gold star father, confirming that, yes, based on what he witnessed firsthand and a technical definition of fascism, donald trump fits the definition

of a fascist. that on the record, recorded testimony from general john kelly, is damning enough on the face of it. but it comes -- it becomes a fatal blow when you consider that it precisely affirms and confirms what general mark milley, the former chairman of the joint chief of staffs told journalist bob woodward in his new book "war." he recounts a conversation he had with general milley on march 6, 2023 in washington, d.c. --

>> a facist to the core, according to general mark milley, a fascist by any definition of the word "fascist" according to general john kelly. the corroboration is undeniable and chilly. joining me now is author of the new book "war" bob woodward is here. thank you so much for being here. tell me more, tell me anything else about this encounter with general mark milley. >> well, it was -- it was stunning and, of course, milley very respected by everyone in the military, probably not now by donald trump. but it's -- it's a performance

evaluation. and i -- i -- i really think we can go deeper into this, having done three books on trump, spending a year, 2020, the last year he was president, talking to him for 19 interviews, nine hours. there is a way trump operates that people really need to understand. it is -- he does not plan. it's just whatever comes into his mind. oh, let's do this. let's do that. let's say that. having written about and tried to understand presidents, ten of them going back to nixon, you need to plan. you need to structure what you're going to do. you have to structure the presidency. the other element that's vital

to a successful presidency, or actually any successful institution, is to have a team that works together, that coordinates, that meets and says this is the path we're going to take. this is what is reasonable. how does trump operate? all the books i did on him, all the time talking to him. no planning. it's just out of the air. he almost is a roulette wheel. you have no idea what number is going to come up. and a team, he will have aides, he will have people that work for him. the year i talked to him for nine hours while he's the sitting president, he did it totally with me. no press person, no chief of staff, no one else involved. well, if a president is going to do something like that, you want

to let it be known in the white house this is the agenda, this is one of the things we're doing. so you have a -- and people who are supporting trump need to look at this characteristic because it is one of negligence. and the negligence in the presidency is what has often led to the problems we've had with presidents. and to be so into yourself, to be -- this is what i'm going to do. this is the plan, and not essentially really include other people. he's got some people who are kind of hangers-on, but there's no core team. no plan. no team. people who are thinking about or who do support trump need to look at that.

that is a catastrophe for the country. no organization, particularly the presidency, can go without these features of plans and a team. >> i love what you said about going deeper. i have to sneak in a break, but i want to ask you to go deep on something you write in the book about trump's desire to court-martial some of america's greatest military leaders, some of the folks responsible for capturing osama bin laden. we'll have that conversation on the other side. laden. we'll have that conversation on the other side

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visit indeed.com/hire we're back with bob woodward. bob, you write this in "war." >> milley defused the situation by telling trump he would handle it and called the two generals, tipping them off to the president's plans and telling them to "dial it back."

the interesting thing to me about what milley does here is that generals don't scare. mcchrystal, i think, was the first to go on television with robert costa, your co-author, and endorsed vice president kamala harris. what effect has the bullying of generals and retired generals had on these generals that you know so well? >> okay, what's so important here, this is trump as president saying, i'm going to exercise my power to -- which it is little known, but he has that authority, the commander in chief does, can recall retired officers, put them on active duty, and then for policy purpose or for vengeance, then he says he will court-martial

them. now, this is exactly the trump approach. i want to use my power as president to cause havoc, to -- i mean, the generals were scared, because he can do this. he has that authority. and, again, using the power of the presidency for personal vengeance purposes. that's not the job of the president. that is -- that is corrupt. it really is a moral felony to even talk about planning that. he didn't execute it. they talked him out of it. but, again, this is a window into the mindset. >> and what happens if he's elected again with all of your

years of reporting and wants to court-martial general kelly or general milley or general mattis? >> he could do it. the problem, again, with trump back in office is going to be no team, no plan. everything is either personal or what he wants to do, what -- in that moment he feels. and people -- emphasize, people will support him, obviously maybe half the country does. maybe more, maybe less. but need to think about the organizational impact of putting somebody like that back in the presidency who's just going to make policy on impulse. you can't do that in any organization. you can't do it in your

television network. you can't do it, it's not done at the "washington post." it's chaos and it is moral collapse. and this is the way trump does things. >> bob, we know what general milley thinks because he trusted a journalist like yourself, which is not surprising. but trump is also a threat to journalism. will you talk about that a little bit? >> well, he will say things and do things -- again, maybe it's possible if he became president, one thing i have learned from writing about ten presidents, as i said, going back to nixon is the extraordinary concentration of power in that office. a president can almost do anything. as we see daily. something comes up that really

doesn't relate to presidential power and reporters, our colleagues will ask the white house what does the president say? what is the position of the white house on this? count to ten. the country better count to ten before they think about putting trump back in power. it would -- it's not political. it's not personal. it's organizational collapse. is this what people want? people who are businesspeople, who run organizations or are in organizations. know the chaos that can be created if there's no plan and there are no group of people working together. that's the promise of the trump presidency. >> bob woodward, thank you so

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i have done a lot of rallies. so i don't usually get nervous. but i was feeling some kind of way following eminem. now, i notice my palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are

heavy. vomit on my sweater already! mom's spaghetti! i'm nervous but on the surface i look calm and ready to drop bombs. but i keep on forgetting! >> former president barack obama bringing down the house in detroit, michigan with hometown star, rock and roll hall of fame inductee rapper eminem rallying several thousand attendees at a rally last night there. president obama has been ramping up his presence and performance on the campaign trail for vice president kamala harris ahead of his first joint rally with vice president harris in atlanta tomorrow along with another musical superstar, bruce springsteen. that event kicks off a series of concerts from the boss across battleground states, with the next one in philadelphia monday. another break for us. we'll be right back. ack. most from medicare. if you're eligible for

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