states, and blue states. this is an issue that affects women of every political stripe and it is really peeling off suburban republican women, suburban independent women. you wouldn't see this sort of posted campaign that we are all talking about where women are telling each other in the ladies room, your vote is private. there is something happening here around this issue that has galvanized women in a way i have never seen before. >> and we have seen it in results. again, there's polling, there's results. we have seen it in results, clear as day, since dobbs came down. thank you both. that is "all in" on this wednesday night. alice wagner starts now. good evening, alice. welcome back. kamala harris's running mate,

tim walz cast his ballot in this year's election, casting a ballot presumably for himself and kamala harris. after voting walz took a few moments to talk about when he cast that surreal vote, and then he quickly turned to this. >> i think for many of us the last 24 hours has certainly been a bit shaky with the report coming out in the atlantic donald trump's dissension into and john kelly, who i think for having the coverage to come forward. >> what governor walz is referencing here is the bombshell reporting is trump told the people in this white house he needed the kind of generals hitler had. trump's spokesperson said trump denied anything of the sort, but it was fox news who had this unbelievably creative explanation. >> i could absolutely see him going you know what, it would be

great to have german generals and have them do what we asked them to do knowing that's not being fully cognizant of the third rail and the nazis in general. >> yeah, maybe trump didn't know the german generals were nazis. maybe trump is aware how specifically hitler's generals were and don't know what they did. unfortunately, that is not the case. here is former chief of staff john kelly talking about a conversation he had with trump repeatedly. >> he commented more than once that hitler did some good so things, too. >> hitler did some good things, too. reporter michael schmidt at "the new york times" has now publishedne audio of trump's former chief of staff, john kelly, telling schmidt in his

own wordsn what he thinks of h old boss. and the bottom line here is that kelly thinks trump is a fascist. >> do you think he's a fascist? >> well, looking at the definition of fascism, it's a far-right authoritarian, ultra-nationalist, political ideology and movement characterized by a dictatorial leader centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy. so certainly in my experience, those are the kinds of things that he thinks would work better in terms of running america. certainly the former president is in the far-right area. he's certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators. he has said that.

so he certainly falls into the generalto definition of fascist for sure. >> just to be 100% clear, this is trump's former chief of staff reading the wikipedia definition of fascism and then saying, yep, yep, that sounds like trump. if this feels like deja vu, you are not crazy. just two weeks ago bob woodward reported in his new book trump's former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark milly, said that trump is fascist to the core. days later woodward told the bulwark james mattis also thinks trump is a fascist. and now trump's longest serving chief of staff, john kelly, is coming out as well. saying that trump wants generals like hitler had. saying that trump said hitler did some good things and saying that trump fits the definition

of a fascist. and today the news vice president kamala harris is planning to deliver a closing argument in the form of a speech in washington, d.c. next tuesday, one week from election day. and a accordingk to a permit application filled out by the harris campaign they are specifically asking for space on the ellipse, where trump gave his now infamous speech on january 6th before his followers attacked the capitol. while we don't know exactly what harris' closing will be, today we might have gotten a hit. today the vice president took time out of her schedule with only 13 days left to go to give these formal remarks. >> so yesterday we learned that donald trump's former chief of star, john fkelly, a retired four-star general confirmed that while donald trump was president he said he wanted generals like adolph hitler had. donald trump said that because

he does not want a military that is loyal to the united states constitution. he wants a military that is loyal to him. he wants a military who will be loyal to him personally, one that will obey his orders even when he o tells them to break t law or abandon their oath to the constitution of the united states. o in just the past week donald trump has repeatedly called his fellow americans the enemy from within and even said that he would use the united states military to go after american citizens. this is a window into who donald trump really is. from the people who know him best, from the people who work with p him side by side in the oval office and in the situation room.om and it is clear from john kelly's words that donald trump is someone who i, quote, certainly falls into the general definition of fascist. so the bottom line is this, we

know what donald trump wants. he wantst unchecked power. the question in 13 days will be what do the american people want. >> joining me now is the reporter who broke this major story, michael schmidt, investigative reporter for "the new york times." he recentlyrt interviewed john kelly in three on the record discussions, which are all, of course, on tape. it's great to have you here. what a moment for our democracy. this is not the first time fascist has come up in the context of donald trump, but this is the first time we've heard it on tape from one of his closest advisers. i wonder, you know, if you could tell me a little bit about how this came to be because the recording of itbe seems essenti to the impact of the story. was it difficult convincing general kelly to release this to the public? >> so i think to your point, this is all about the audio.

these are things that if you have followed the trump story, that areum sort of widely known. his affinity for hitler had been reported. a lot of the things that came out had been reported, but they'd all been reported in text, sometimes on background. sometimes kelly has even put out statements himself but in writing.ut but i thought that it's our job as journalists to find new ways to tell important stories to the public about a range of different things. the question of donald trump and, you know, how he would rule andd, what he would mean to the democracy is an important one. and i felt the story was constantly getting bogged down in the text, and it allowed the truest of what the facts were not to fully shine through. so i thought that to do this, you had to get the audio of ud kelly.

you had to hear kelly's voice. you had to hear him struggling with trying to not only explain donald trump's behavior but sort of push himself to do that. because we are two weeks out from an election. you've never seen john kelly on television. he's not a talking edge. john kelly isn't selling a book, john kelly isn't making the rounds. this isth someone who goes to v halls and talking to young cadetsin and marines and doesn' want anything to do with partisan politicsb, hates partisan politics maybe even, you know, to a fault. and it took a very, very long time to get to this point. i had asked kelly to do this over the summer, and he said, mike, you're a nice guy, but get lost. and i -- you know, we just didn't give up. and we continued to push. but the difference here is the audio. it's the fact that you can hear

it, and you can hear it directly from the person. you're not relying on me writing ang story about it. you can play it and you can hear ithe yourself. and in a world in which we in the media are struggling to deal with questions of fact and attacks on the press, i have found that audio is a really helpful way to bring things forward. and i think in this case it really helped to tell the story and tell it in a way that was new and different. >> it sounds like the -- the inflection point in terms of his decision making or his desire to come out was trump saying over the weekend of november -- october 13th talking about -- let's actually just play the audio. talking abouthe the enemy withi. >> i think the bigger problem is thege enemy from within. we have some very bad people, we

have some sick people, radical lefteo lunatics, and i think they're the -- and it should be very easily handled by, if necessary, the national guard. or if really necessary by the military. >> that last part, the military needs to handle the enemy from within. i would imagine for a former military man, that's something that is unconscionable, right? >> if johnci kelly had a red li, that's over the red line. for kelly to hear that a candidate who's running for president, whofo has already be president, so who has some appreciation of what it's like to be president, would as president use the military against americans, just goes against pretty much every bone in his body. this man spent 40 years in the marines. he has taken on the ethos of the uniformed military officer as much as anyone could and believes the united states military is something that should do things abroad to

defend the united states. and that great power, that sacred power p should not be us domestically against americans. and that that is heading down the path of unraveling the country, unraveling what george washington wanted for the country. and he's someone steeped in history. and for him, kelly made a deal withhi himself. he said there's two ways that i will speak out. and he's done this over the years. if trump says something that's wildly inaccurate that relates to me, i will s speak out. or ifl there's something that says that really needs to be refuted, that is damaging to tho country, i will speak out. and this met that second standard, and that's why we have audio ofve john kelly. >> and we've seen in recent weeks a s flurry of mattis, milley,tt kelly, these guys who are former military guys coming outand calling trump specifically a fascist, saying that guy's a fascist.

>> yeah, but mattis and milley didn't sit for interviews. >> correct. and if they'd like to come out, i'm sure you're ready. >> yeah, but that's the difference. >> i'm not trying to undermine the significance of the reporting. i guess i'm trying to put it in the context of numerous men who were formerly involved ibmilitary, served in the trump administration, using the word fascist, and wondering if you might put a little context around that. this is more than just a random act of name-calling. this is something that has broken within these men, that hashi pushed them to use one of the worst things you can call an american president, someone who cares nothing for the democracy or constitution, a fascist. i wonder why you think kelly in particular, who's not a particular actor and says that in your interview, doesn't take that one step further and says don't vote for donald trump, vote for kamala harris. i understand he doesn't get

involved in politics, but if he genuinely believes trump is a threat to constitution, what recourse is there? >> i think kelly is -- this is as far as someone who sees himself as a uniformed military officer is willing to go. i think this is probably even further than any of them would want to go because they see partisan politics and their involvement in that as -- as bad as using the american military domestically. they don't believe that the military officers should be political actors. and the way they get there intellectually or that john kelly got there was i believe i should speak out because of this issue in which i don't think the military should be used domestically. i can it's fair for me -- this is kelly -- to say that voters should consider someone's fitness andsh character. and that fitness and character

is moreit important than policy and that i'm not going to tell you what to do, but here are some things tat i saw, and i will answer factual questions about what i saw. >> well, you can i see the subtt of what he is saying quite clearly. it is an extraordinary conversation and a real credit to you that you kept going back to this individual. it has the potential and the vice president speaking at the vice presidential residence as a member of the administration on this. really a significant piece of reporting. thanks for joining me tonight, michael. >> thanks for having me. it's great to see. coming up president obama continues to speak out about the choices facing young men in this election. i'm going to discuss that with connecticut senator chris murphy,t who has a lot of thoughts on this particular topic. but firstla with 13 days le and millions of votes already cast, we have two very different closing messages. one involves democracy.

the other involves al capone. tim miller and claire mccaskill joins me on that coming up next. joins me on that coming up next. tresemme flawless curls defining mousse. 24 hour. hydrating curl definition. style your life the way you want. ♪♪ tresemme, style your way.

election day is 13 days away, and so far over 23.6 million people have already cast their ballots, which is roughly 15% of the total vote in 2020.

on the campaign trail today donald trump made stops in georgia while kamala harris paid another visit to pennsylvania. both of them are making a final pitch to voters, hammering home some remarkably contrasting visions. this was vice president harris today speaking to campaign volunteers in philadelphia. >> we are building communities. we are building coalitions. we are reminding people of what are the motivations behind our campaign, which is we all have so much more in common than what separates us. and we are going to, as we all say, turn the page on an era that was about trying to have people point fingers at each other, trying to suggest that there are these issues that divide us when the most fundamental important things we care about unify us. >> and here was donald trump at a town hall in georgia with that

state's lieutenant governor, greg jones. >> i've been investigated more than any human being i suspect in the history of our country. more than alphonse capone. scar face, commonly known as -- i've been investigated more than scar face. my father's looking down from heaven. i think my father's in heaven. i know my mother's in heaven. but my father was great. a great guy but a strong guy. >> joining me now is the former senator from the great state of missouri, claire mccaskill, along with tim miller, writer at large at the bulwark. claire, i was struck by the fact after this reporting by "the new york times," the reporting in "the atlantic" about trump favoring hitler's generals and being called a fascist by his former and long-standing chief of staff, that kamala harris decided to make a moment of it in her official capacity as vice president. she spoke and made a statement

today at the naval observatory. what did you think of that, as a matter of politics and also stagecraft? >> well, honestly, i'm going to tell you because i know john kelly, i've worked with john kelly, and john kelly is a lot of things. and you can find things to criticize about john kelly, but there's one thing that he is, and he is a truth teller. this is a man who does not lie. and the fact that he came out in his own words and said especially not just that trump was a fascist, frankly, even maybe more damning than that was him saying in his own words how trump called men and women who served their country and died for their country suckers and losers. now, in any other universe, in any other presidential campaign, it would be game over. we do not in america call our

military suckers and losers who have sacrificed themselves for our country. and this was particularly difficult for john kelly because he lost his son in combat in afghanistan. he's not just a retired four-star general. he's also a gold star family member. so the notion that this man treats the military with this disrespect and sees the military as his own toy, john kelly reveres the military. he is a military man 100%. when he took the job as chief of staff, he called me, i said what are you doing? why are you doing this? and he said i feel like my country needs me in this capacity right now, i think i can help, and then obviously he learned the hard way, that there's no one who can help donald trump. >> yeah. i mean, i'm struck, tim, by the contrast, the gravity of, you know, what claire's talking about, the reporting we have about kelly, the decision he made to come out publicly,

effectively with this audio and reporting, and then the sort of moment we just played for you, trump early in the day talking about alphonse capone and doing his wise guy. with a certain part of the electorate it doesn't seem toby resonating the way it should, and i wonder if it has anything to do with his looney tunes routine on the campaign trail that maybe lulls people into thinking he's not as dangerous as his words might suggest he is. >> i do think that's happening. i think there's an element there's a anti-hero of trump like toneo soprano. some people like that and are looking for that. that's alarming and something we're going to have to deal with in our country in a couple of weeks. but i do think there is a group of people that despite january 6th. and it's hard to to watch this show completely, but despite

january 6th there remains a group of people that abides by that take him seriously but not literally thing. there's a-built itof tongue and cheek, he's doing this quasi-comedy routine. this guy can't really be hitler, he can't really be mussolini. that's ridiculous. there are people who still think that. i think for me politically for the harris campaign i think the most compelling parts of the testimony from john kelly are more about in the practical elements of what happened. during 2020 donald trump wanted his generals to shoot the protesters. and when he was told they can't do that, you know, he called the generals -- well, i can't say it on the show, but wussys, but worse than that. that's not hitler. this guy if he gets in charge

again, he wants generals and people around him that will let him actually target enemy within, the political foes in the country and actually shoot them. that is a kind of a unbelievable thing. a believable thing is his own chief of staff and defense secretary are so worried about him that they're not only not going to vote for him, but they're sounding the alarm. i think the harris campaign can use these arguments to the effect of this small group i think it was 4% of the electorate still undecided. that 4% is mostly people who don't like trump, they may not want to believe he's hitler or hitler curious, right, but they certainly can believe he's irresponsible, dangerous, et cetera. and i think that's something you'll see from the harris camp. >> yeah, and i think that explains the decision we're hearing, claire, to make a closing argument on the national mall, on the ellipse where trump famously gave his speech

rallying up the crowd to get them to storm the capitol. we talked so much about the economy. it's of course primal and issue on voter's minds. to tim's point, it's clear this campaign has zeroed in on republicans who are hitler curious, for whom there will be no guardrails in a second trump administration. what do you think zeroing in on them in the last week of the campaign in. >> well, i think what we heard in the clip you played, alex, is really where she should spend most of her time, most of her bandwidth in this country, appealing to our better angel. telling everyone we don't have to have this chaos every day. we don't have to have this clown show. we can have a country where we can civilly disagree on policy without threatening to put people in jail or call the military out. we can fix the border working in a bipartisan way. we can address the issues our

country faces by coming together in a positive way. she needs to stay very positive at the end, but doing a speech at the ellipse will be an echo. it will be a reminder of what happened at that place on january 6th, and that will provide the contrast -- i don't think she'll have to color in too much on that because i think the media will do it by reminding everyone this is where trump sent them down to the capitol. this is where the mob started. this is the people he called together to do damage to our constitution and to free and fair elections. but i think she needs to be a contrast to trump. she doesn't need to convince people that trump is hitler in the closing two weeks in this campaign. she needs to convince people that she's a better way and that she's something much different. >> you know, to that end, tim, jonathan martin and politico magazine, suggests she needs to do more specific outreach to republicans, suggesting harris has said nothing specific about how she governed, mentioning no

looming issue on how she worked with republicans, offering no reassurances on leading the country from the political center. there are more suggestions in the piece. i -- it's an interesting concept, but i'm not sure how feasible that is at all without alienating, i don't know, the entire democratic party. >> yeah, i love him, and i see where his head is on this. i see the temptation in trying to be more specific in reaching out to the haley voters. i think to me if you look at the data among the haley voters the things that are the most compelling to them are what we just talked about. the officials around trump say he's too dangerous to be president, one on january 6th. and two, you think about republicans being pro-life, but reproductive rights. because it tends to be the more moderate republicans who may not be pro-choice but they certainly don't like the extreme bills

you've seen passed in texas and et cetera where you see the vice president and i think the campaign there on friday have talked about that. i think those two issues, you comup by that with talking about nato, supporting ukraine, traditional america's role in the world in the way she has in a way reminiscent of, you know, how mccain would have talked about it, maybe not in the details but certainly how we support american allies and how we don't cow to dictators. i think that part of reproductive rights plus january 6th are probably the best messages for her to close with in that group and the polling bears it. >> tim miller and claire mccaskill, thanks for getting here. strategist hat on. thanks for your time tonight. still ahead the harris-walz campaign is preparing for donald trump to declare victory on election night well before any results are final. so what's the plan to combat

that? but first -- ♪♪ >> vireck ramaswamy tried to rap "lose yourself" on the campaign trail. eminem sent him a cease and desist. when barack obama tried it, the real slim shady actually stood up. how is obama's latest message resonating with the young men who might decide this election? that's next. election that's next.

so i don't usually get nervous, but i was feeling some kind of way following eminem. and i notice my palms are sweaty, knees week, arms are heavy, mom's spaghetti. i'm nervous but on the surface i look calm and ready to drop bombs but i keep on forgetting. >> last night in detroit former president obama rapped a few bars of eminem's "lose yourself" seconds after sharing the stage with eminem himself. i mean not everyone would have the confidence to pull that off, which is one of the many reasons that obama remains the party's most powerful surrogate other than, of course, his wife.

especially when you compare obama's rap skills to those of vivek ramaswamy, whose own rendition of "lose yourself" was so bad, it earned him a cease and desist from eminem. now, offstage the former president has reasonably caused a little controversy for the harris campaign. at a recent event in pittsburgh former president obama made remarks directed specifically at young black men and suggesting those who don't support kamala harris might be uncomfortable with a woman president, remarks some interpreted as scolding. i recently spoke with one voter in philadelphia who described those comments this way. >> i was deeply offended. and it felt like a moment where it's like you "n" words better get in line and do what we say. it felt like him as the czar of the democratic party coming down to say go get these "n" words in line. and the general tone of it was disgusting. it was abhorrent. i don't respect it.

i don't like nothing about it. >> well, today the former president seems to have shifted his tone. here's was a moment today of the young men in the podcast about why young men might be trump curious this election. >> y'all came of age. you were still in school when i was president and the financial crisis hit. but then you lived through a pandemic that was -- i think we're all still dealing with. a lot of young men today are coming out of school feeling like it's going to be hard for me to match what my parents achieved. maybe because of the cost of living it's going to be hard for me to buy a house or support a family in the same way. a lot of young men, they get frustrated and they say, well, nothing's happened. and the flip side is, you know,

when you've got people who don't care about it, it can make it worse. >> the former president reckoning with young male frustration, but making clear that the solution is not voting for someone like donald trump. coming up i'll talk to the one person in the united states senate who has thought about this issue probably more than anyone else. senator chris murphy joins me coming up next. s murphy joins m coming up next to support memory in older adults. so you can keep saying, you mastered it! you fixed it! you nailed it! you did it! with centrum silver, clinically proven to support memory in older adults.

when you know for a fact

that misogyny and sexism is a real thing in this country, at the end of the day we know she's strong, we know she's educated. there's no way you can have the credentials she has and served in the positions she's served in and people look at her as unqualified. that in itself is a certain level of sexismism. and i can't think of a male with the same credentials who would receive the same criticism. >> he's weighing in on the very real gender divide this election. recent polls show only 41% of men plan to vote for kamala harris compared to the 51% who plan to vote for donald trump. that is a 50% drop since joe biden's support in 2020. senator chris murphy of connecticut has written about the unique stressors including loneliness and the achievement gap that might ultimately be pushing men towards the right. in a piece called the reason to care about the plight of men, murphy writes men are committing suicide at a rate four time

higher than women. 10% more women are enrolled in college today than men. 7% of drug overdose deaths in america today are males. i don't think we can deny that a lot of men are in crisis today. joining me now to discuss is the man who wrote that, democratic senator from connecticut, chris murphy. senator murphy, thank you so much for joining me tonight. i have found your attention to the subject in writing about it incredibly empathetic and missing in a lot of ways from the national discourse because i think we all rightly so have been very focused on women's rights, reproductive rights, lgbtq plus, and that all deserves its focus, but hand in hand there's something else unfolding i think probably warrants some focus given, especially, the potential repercussions in the political sphere. can you talk about the crisis you see unfolding and how that dove tales with other crisis we see? >> yeah, this is an enormously

complicated issue. we still live in a world in which men make more money than women. men have more economic and political power. that is all true. and women right now are fighting for their rights and their lives. but it is also true that a lot of men are going through something right now, and it's not hard to understand why. for thousands of years we've lived in a society in which by birth, men have more legal power, more economic power, more cultural power than women. and today we live in a world in which that patriarchy is toppling. and one of the biggest signals that patriarchy is toppling is the pending election of a woman to be the most powerful person in the world. and so, you know, men for centuries sort of easily found their identity through that system of men having more legal power. they were identified easily as protectors and bread winners,

and now you have just as many families where women make as much if not more money than the men do. what men want, what everybody wants but certainly what young men want is a feeling of power. and donald trump and republicans offer it in a pretty simple recipe. we're just going to dial it back to the days when men were legally superior to women. we're essentially going to take power from women and deliver it to men, but that's not how it has to work. power is not a zero-sum game, but you have to take it from somebody to give it to someone else. what kamala harris is saying the corporations, the millionaires and billionaires, they have too much power and i'm going to reorder our society in a way by letting you get a big tax break to start a small business, by making it easier for young men or young families to be able to afford your first house. young men are going through something today. they want to feel power, and i

don't think they actually want to take that power from women, but the democrats often don't speak directly to those young men and explain to them how our agenda, how kamala harris' agenda is about putting power back in the hands of everybody in this country but especially young men, and men who feel like this transition to a post-patriarchal world has put them in a position where they're searching and they're having a harder time to find identity and meaning. >> it's just such a challenge for harris because she represents a post-patriarchal world in a lot of ways, which is why i thought former president obama's comments on the nba podcast today and just his -- you know, his intentionality in terms of talking to young men in a way that i think is effectively trying to bring them back from the brink of being attracted to the siren song of trumpism. i think that's probably a pretty important role for him to play

given the realities of where we are in terms of the gender divide in this election. >> and listen the right is having a direct, transparent conversation with men. and it is often in disgusting, immoral terms, whether that be andrew tate or jordan peterson. often the left says yes we live in a world where women are increasing their share of economic power, in which you are no longer going to be able to find that easy identity as a breadwinner or protector, and you just need to get over it. i don't think that's a satisfactory message. i think you've got to explain to young men how there are other ways they can find power and identity. that there is nothing wrong with creating an identity that is both protector and nurturer and

caregiver. and so having that direct conversation president obama is having with young men about what has happened over the course of the pandemic, what has happened more broadly in the era of feminism, i think it's important conversation and one we haven't been having with intentionality like the right has had. >> it's such an important point. again, i direct everybody to your writing on this and your thinking on this because it's pretty unique in the sphere. senator chris murphy, thanks for your time tonight. i appreciate you. coming up, the harris campaign is already making plans for trump to declare victory prematurely on election night. we're going to talk with super lawyer mark elias of the harris campaign about what to expect. that's next. s campaign about what to expect. that's next. radiant skin. new vaseline radiant x body lotion with 1% niacinamide. level up to even toned skin.

(man) these men of means with their silver spoons. what will become of them when they discover1% niacinamide. robinhood gold allows others to earn their very liberal rates on idle cash. they would descend into chaos.

there is some new reporting today by nbc news that the harris-walz campaign is preparing for donald trump to prematurely declare himself the winner on election night before all the results are tabulated. sound familiar? joining me now is mark elias, founder of democracy docket and

chair of the elias law group. he's also helping the harris-walz in its post-election litigation strategy. thank you for being here. i do wonder we're hearing words -- we have reporting about the trump campaign filing preelection lawsuits, and i wonder what you think of this effective prebuttal for election day? >> yeah, look, we have known for some time that donald trump uses the legal system not to adjudicate things on the merits but rather to make a point. sometimes it's to intimidate haze business associates, sometimes to victimize innocent consumers of his products. in the election context we know he has used it to try to further a false narrative, the big lie which serves as a permission structure for him and his supporters to deny the reality that he lost in 2020 and he will almost certainly lose the popular vote and election in 2024. so the way he deals with this is

he has his lawyers file a bunch of lawsuits. but we have to be clear those lawsuits are not succeeding. just today the rnc lost a big case in pennsylvania. yesterday they lost one in georgia. the day before that, they lost one in michigan. they have lost one in north carolina. their conservative allies lost one today in wisconsin. they lost one at the end of last week in nevada. i could go on and on and on. so the fact that they're filing these lawsuits, is meant to create, like i said, a structure for him to have an excuse for why he loses, but it doesn't mean the courts are not protecting voters, and certainly democrats and progressive organizations are out there fighting every day to make sure that's not true. >> we know this is not going to be rusolved on election night. i wonder if you have sumgzs about how to navigate the post-election day period both i mean, honestly, for people in the media and citizens out there in the world as they sort of try and straddle this interregnum

period of uncertainty. >> i say two things. first of all, make sure everyone votes and don't let the cynics convince people it doesn't matter. the cynics want you to believe there's going to be chaos. donald trump wants you to believe your vote doesn't matter, and none of that's true. we're going to have an orderly election and everyone needs to get out and vote. number two, it's going to be normal to take a few days for the ballots to be counted. part of that is a normal way of counting ballots in the way we do it in the united states which is at the local level and county levels, so it takes a few days. republicans in the country in their legislative power have prevented a faster counting of ballots because they want that to be that period of uncertainty. the last thing i offer to the general public and frankly to the media that's listening, donald trump lies about almost everything, so there's no reason to believe he's going to stop lying about the outcome of the election. so treat what comes out of his mouth as presumptively untrue.

treat what comes out of the rnc and surrogates as something they spew among other things. the difference here he's doing it to undermine confidence in free and fair elections, and people should not give him that microphone and that amplification. >> are you most worried about the days immediately after the election or do you think there's a reason to look up to the calender to the january 20th mark? >> my job is to worry about everything. my job is worry about everything now and after election day, all the way to the end. i think for voters their job is to make sure they vote. their job is to pak sure they don't get dissuaded and they don't buy into the republican big lie. and i think if everyone votes we'll make sure there's an orderly process. i'm not saying it's going to be immediate and not bumps in the road. donald trump and his allies filed 60 but at the end of the

day they lost those lawsuits and the vote was certified on january 6th. so let's -- we'll worry about the process. people need to make sure they vote. >> mark elias is going to be up worrying, we just got to vote. you heard it from the man here first. thank you for joining me tonight. i really appreciate it. that is our show for this evening. before we go, i will note there's a new episode of "pod save america." it's up now. i co-hosted it with john fiferer. we discussed obama and eminem. listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. do you think donald trump is a fascist? >> yes, i do. yes, i do. and i also believe that the people who know him best on this subject should be trusted. >> that was one of the top