270. i think trump is in the best position in those two of the seven states. >> certainly those in the harris campaign, of the seven battleground states, feel the worst about arizona, but growing more confident about nevada. that could fit into the puzzle piece you described. contributor to the conservative website "the bulwark," tim miller, thank you, as always. we'll talk soon. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. and i think for many of us, the last 24 hours has been shaky with the reporting in "the atlantic." donald trump's descending into madness, and john kelly making this very clear. this is an election about donald trump taking full control of the military to use against his political enemies, taking full control of the department of justice to prosecute those who disagree with him, taking full control of the media on what is told and what is told to the american public.

the opportunity here and the absolute requirement of americans is just to understand that this rhetoric has not been used in this country, certainly not by a party's presidential nominee. >> do you think donald trump is a fascist? >> yes, i do. yes, i do. and i also believe the people who know him best on this subject should be trusted. >> here we go. the closing message that's beginning to emerge from the harris-walz campaign, especially in light of recent reporting by michael schmidt and in "the atlantic." welcome to "morning joe" on thursday, october 24th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "poli"politico," jonathan le. analyst and partner and chief political columnist at "puck," johnmessina, served as white

house deputy staff for president obama and ran his re-election campaign. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us. good to have you all this morning. joe, the polls are showing, once again, a very close race, but the final messages are beginning to emerge. >> breaking news, this race is now a tie. >> yeah. >> it's interesting. conservatives don't support trump, so they probably are thinking harris is going to win, but trump republicans will look at the polls they want to look at. harris supporters will look at the polls they want to look at. but i just -- i just want to say, there's been some chatter about this october surprise. maybe it was michael schmidt's reporting or jeffrey goldberg's

reporting that was an october surprise. maybe it was that kamala harris said that he was a fascist. maybe, more importantly, it was donald trump's longest serving chief of staff who was a general, a highly respected general whose son gave his life to america in defense of america, and who has committed his entire life to defending this nation, who said that donald trump was, yes, indeed, a fascist. also, the chairman of the joint chiefs, donald trump's last chairman of the joint chiefs said donald trump was a fascist to the core. those aren't really the october surprises. the october surprises, willie, are not what everybody else is saying about donald trump. i understand there's some pathetic people out there. >> yup. >> some pathetic people that are trying to cozy up to donald trump, who are trying to blame jeffrey goldberg, trying to blame general kelly for a,

quote, october surprise that they're making up. of course, imagine that. people actually questioning the integrity of those two. questioning the integrity of general kelly. but, no, those aren't the october surprises. the october surprises are what donald trump says and what he has said every time he has opened his mouth. the october surprise is that donald trump has said he is going to arrest his democratic opponents. the october surprise is that donald trump has said he is going to use the army and is going to use the national guard against his political opponents. that's the october surprise. the october surprise is that donald trump has called nancy pelosi, adam schiff, called his democratic opponents the enemies from within. the october surprise has been that donald trump has said that

democrats and people in the press who do not support him are the enemy from within. and more dangerous to america, he has said it, he's said it. not me, not kamala harris. not general kelly. not michael schmidt. not jeffrey goldberg. but it is donald trump who said that nancy pelosi is more an enemy to america than kim jong-un, than xi, than putin, and all the other communist leaders and dictators that want to destroy america. willie, that's the october surprise. that's donald trump's biggest problem right now. >> an october surprise that is not at all surprising from donald trump. it's the kind of rhetoric we've been hearing consistently. but you're right, he's dug in much deeper on it.

and given repeated opportunities to say, no, i was speaking off the cuff or didn't mean that, he's making very clear that's what he believes. that the military may be used and may be deployed against people he views as enemies of the country, people like adam schiff and nancy pelosi that you're talking about. these comments put together with what we heard from general kelly, a decorated four star general, are fodder for vice president harris. she talked about them in a town hall with cnn last night, trying to make sure the choice here, how stark it is. what the country will look like. now different it may be if he is re-elected president versus her being elected president, mika. she is -- you know, we talked about the campaign of joy coming out of the convention in chicago and all of those things, and that's there. that was real. enthusiasm was juiced, and her numbers went way up and stayed up since then. now, she's really drawing this contrast with 12 days to go of, here's what i believe. you've heard my economic plan. i made the speeches about how i

want to make the country better for you. let's also consider where this country goes if we head down a different path. >> she's doing two things at once. her campaign is about joy in america. it is about freedom in america. it is about women who are right now in danger for their lives because of the health care procedures that donald trump has taken away from them. i mean, these are serious issues. she wants to bring that back to -- she wants to bring freedom back to women who lost 50 years of freedoms. it is still an extreme -- if you look at their social media outreach, joe, and you look at the way that they speak, it is a joyful campaign, but it is reflecting off who they are running against. >> right. >> a dark, dismal, fascist, and increasingly obviously fascist person. >> well, yeah. i mean, again, it's pretty

unanimous if you talk to -- you know, even if you talk to the foremost expert in fascism in america. historian who has been around long enough and initially rejected that label and hates using the label, but now says it fits too tightly, too comfortably on donald trump. but this is what i find fascinating, john heilemann. is that donald trump has proven what many libertarians have said all along, and that is that if donald trump can take the rights away from women that they have had for 50 years, and have the government making decisions over a woman's body, the government, the federal government saying the state government can now make any decisions they want to make over women's health care,

and they take control of a woman's body and take away her health care choices, then libertarians have said, if they can do that to women, this federal government that we libertarians don't think can do much right, they can take away my rights, too. and in the final weeks of this campaign, donald trump has proven these libertarians right. he has said, if you speak out against me, you are the enemy from within. if you are against me politically, then you are the enemy within. i can use the military and the national guard against you. if you say something on cbs news, i can take over cbs and shut it down. if you say something on a comcast network i don't like, i can take it over and shut you down. donald trump has promised, promised after being pushed back

on from fox news hosts, from laura ingram, from sean hannity, from howie kurtz, saying, "oh, you don't really mean that, do you? you don't really mean you'll arrest your political opponents, do you?" in effect, donald trump said, "sure, i do." we're not talking about only taking away a 50 year right that women had to make health care decisions about their body. we're now talking about donald trump taking away the right of people to speak out against him. donald trump taking away the right of political people to run in the democratic party against him and his policies, and he has promised this repeatedly, even when pushed back upon in the final weeks of this campaign. so, yes, this is no longer about women. this is about women and men. this is about health care decisions. this is about free speech.

this is about the first amendment. >> yes. it's about all those things, joe. it comes back to this discussion we had on the cnn town hall last night about whether or not donald trump is a fascist. the thing you mentioned a second ago, you know, constitutional republics are very hospitable to classical liberalism and classical conservatism. they're not hospitable to generally communist and the far left authoritarian, or to fascist and far right authoritarian. if you are trying to -- if you were trying to run effectively as a consolidator of federal power, for your idealogical ends, not as someone who wants to disperse federal power and keep the government in check, which is really what classical liberals and classical conservatives want to do, you want to take the power of the state and build something that looks as powerful and as

disrespectful of and is willing to trample over basic constitutional rights as what fascism and authoritarianism and autocracies are. it is antithetical to those more classical conceptions, and it makes it clear we're all in this together. that's one of the truths about this, that when you start taking away one kind of right and the state starts to become powerful and doesn't care, it makes no distinctions in the end between men and women. makes no distinctions between health care versus things with criminal justice or things in almost any realm of policy. it's all just about the power of the state under the command of an individual leader. whether, again, it's on the far left or the far right. donald trump has done around the circle now. he is not that far from being what he condemns most, which is kind of communists and socialists. >> jim messina, you've run successful presidential campaigns.

we have 12 days left. you know exactly what the people inside the harris campaign and trump campaigns are feeling right now. we could go through the polls, but we can save a lot of time by saying these are statistically tied. we have seven battleground states that are statistically tied, could go either way depending on who comes out to vote. i'm curious what you make of the case that the harris campaign is making right now. on the one hand, energizing the base with joy. on the other hand, you have liz cheney trying to win over nikki haley republicans and convince women that it's okay to come over and vote. you can do it in the quiet of the ballot booth, and nobody has to know if that's a hard thing for you to do in your family or community. also, yesterday, last night it a the cnn town hall, kamala harris saying, yeah, i believe donald trump is a fascist. the fact she's going to go one week from election day next tuesday and make a big closing speech at the ellipse where trump delivered his remarks on january 6th before his supporters went and violently stormed the capitol. so with all that together, what do you make of this closing case

from the harris campaign? >> john brought up the cnn town hall last night. i think there was a perfect distillation of the last ten days last night. she looked at the camera and said, "let's be very clear, donald trump has an enemy's list, and i have a to-do list for the american voter." >> right. >> that's their close. i hope that is a tv ad tomorrow. >> right. >> it's a perfect distillation of, i'm in it for you, and he is in it for him. that's the closing argument that people need to understand. we're sitting here in an absolutely tied race with a very small amount of voters who are sitting undecided. then a lot of people saying, am i going to vote? >> right. >> that distillation, that frame is exactly what the harris campaign wants. trump is playing into it. with mika's point, saying the stuff out loud. >> mashing it up as a positive. >> exactly right. >> you think there are two clear things they should say in their message to make it so clear to the voter what the message is. >> i'm in it for you, and he's

in it for him. >> there is a sea of disinformation that they have to fight through, joe. i mean, even on this -- these latest developments broken by michael schmidt, as put in "the atlantic,". >> right. >> you see not only distortion and lies but twisting it and making it a positive, that trump fashions himself after adolf hitler. >> yeah. >> just let that sit for a second. then if i could add one more thing. as i was watching a clip, joe, from liz cheney and kamala harris on stage on youtube yesterday, off of jim's point, i had to watch an ad. you know, you want to skip it, but you watch it. it was like an ad telling me that you can cast your vote, but your vote is public. everyone will know about it. so just for the record, it's important to know that liz cheney is right. your vote is private. but these ads are everywhere. it's not just fox news and in places that are completely, completely taking orders from

donald trump, but in places you least expect it, joe. >> yeah. i mean, yesterday was quite a day. quite a day. if you're a republican and you want to know where your party is right now, how low your party has sunk, all you need to know is that the television network that you watch most of the time, yesterday started by saying, well, donald trump, yeah, maybe he liked nazi generals, but he sure did receive a lot of pushback from his staff. that had to be frustrating. >> he was frustrated. >> so we can understand why he likes nazi generals. and maybe he didn't even know that hitler's generals were nazis. that's the first thing. >> that's when you know you're gone, saying stuff like that. >> then one of the republican governors who is supposed to be

the most -- more of the more respected and popular republican governors, was on cnn yesterday. this republican governor was asked, well, what about donald trump wanting nazi generals? and this republican governor said, well, you know, with donald trump, that's all sort of baked in by now. >> oh, okay. i didn't know that. >> their words. their words. so this man's longing for nazi generals, according to -- they're not denying it. >> huh-uh. >> they're now saying, they're saying, well, he had a good reason to do this, because his staff members pushed back on him. >> again, fascism. >> maybe he didn't even know that hitler's generals, german generals, were nazis. then it's, quote, baked in, a

governor says, a republican governor says. this fascism, this desire for nazi generals is, quote, maked baked in by now. >> thanks for letting us know. >> sit on that for a while if you will. jim messina, i'm so glad you're here. you can talk to our friends that are watching right now. you can help our republican friends perhaps take a deep breath and stop taking victory laps because we still have a couple weeks left. this race is tied. we don't know who is going to win. maybe you can tell our democratic friends to get a bag, paper bag, and breathe into it. four, five, six times. like nicholas cage does in "family man" when he finds out his life has completely been turned upside down. >> wow. >> yeah. >> in this case, tell democrats -- how about that, huh? one of my favorite movies of all time. i threw that one in. >> we need to breathe into our

bag for the life of our country. >> didn't know what nicholas cage reference we'd get there. >> dead serious. >> "family man" reference. one of the great movies of all time. >> never saw it. >> conair. >> the rock. >> it's good. >> all right. here's the deal, though, i'm getting to my point 3 1/2 hours later. jim messina, democrats despair even when they're on the pathway to victory. republicans rejoice even when they're walking into the jaws of defeat. and i can talk about 2022 when republicans were mocking and sneering of joe biden, oh, hooe he's running on abortion. i can get you the clips. he's running on abortion, running on democracies, what fools they are. it was blowing up in their face. there was no red wave. in 2020, republicans were so

sure they were going to win, some of them ransacked the capitol. committed, you know, an insurrection against the united states capitol. i mean, trump's own campaign manager said it was an insurrection. and then -- or my favorite, this is my favorite. go back to 2012, the campaign you know the most about, where every single day, republicans were quoting gallup polls that had mitt romney up by 11 points. and every single day, they were saying, we're going to crush obama. my republican friends were all certain that barack obama was beaten. all of them. and democrats in despair, going to 538 every two seconds and refreshing, refreshing. what are the latest polls? we're so freaked out. even on election night -- and this is important to point out. people think they know where this race is going to be. they don't know where this race is going to be yet. even on election night, i

remember karl rove, guy who knows a thing or two about presidential politics, couldn't believe the numbers he was seeing. said, let's look at them again. these numbers can't be right. mitt romney and anne romney, two people i know and love, were certain that the numbers they were getting were wrong on election night. because republicans remained in this bubble. again, like i said, democrats despair. they look for the negative news so they can freak out. republicans look for news that reinforces. this is why they've lost seven, eight years in a row. talk about that instinct and why democrats should actually understand, this is a race that's tied. and republicans need to understand the same thing so they are not freaked out the day after if donald trump actually loses again. >> well, joe, thanks for bringing up my 2012 polling ptsd

on national television. >> you're welcome. >> yeah, i remember on the saturday before the election, barack obama had me go to wisconsin to brief him. he brought up the gallup poll. he's like, massena, why does the gallup poll say i'm down three, but your numbers say we'll win handily? i was like, because polling sucks, and we have better data. very clearly, and it's like this in this race, too, if this race is a choice, a contrast, we will win. if it is a referendum on you, we will lose. we've driven this campaign to be a choice. it's exactly what kamala harris and her campaign team are attempting to do. end this with a very clear contrast. i love the theory of ending the campaign on the ellipse where we're going to give a speech and remind everyone about january 6th. you look at the morning polls out this morning, the morning consult poll that now shows kamala harris tied on cost of goods. tied on taxes. heilemann, when is the last time you've seen democrats tied on taxes? you look at some of the numbers

below the head-to-heads, and, yes, we're in a tied race. but we're in a tied race where she has room to grow. after three presidential campaigns, there is nothing positive donald trump can tell voters, so all he can do is go negative. to mika's point, there still is a moment here about joy. there is a moment about happiness. there is a moment about women who, by the way, saved the democratic party in 2022, who are going to be called to save the party and save the country from donald trump in 2024. early vote is showing that those women are starting to vote in record numbers. >> it's a moment about what can be, jonathan. >> it is. voters, of course, as jim pointed out, are already voting. the data, read into it what you will. right now, republicans feel good about early voting numbers in nevada. democrats feel good about where they are in pennsylvania. it is unclear, though, are these new voters or voters who would vote on election day and are doing it early because republicans are embraing it this time around?

to quote jim messina, polling sucks. therefore, it is hard to get a read on where things are. both campaigns, though, are banking on that hidden vote, the vote that isn't being picked up in the polls. the trump team, it's young men. maybe young men of color. it's sort of working class voters who weren't picked up in the polls in '16 and '20, missed this time around again, and they'll be there on election day, the trump team believes. for harris, they think it is women. this is the first presidential election post roe v. wade being overturned. in this dobbs reality, democrats largely undefeated when it comes to elections because of the role abortion rights are playing. they believe that's who is going to show up, quietly perhaps, but will show up next tuesday. >> yeah. if this really is going to be the boys versus girls election, you probably would rather hold kamala harris' hand. historically, women have voted in larger numbers than men have voted. now the question going to be, how many of those republican

women or women who live in republican households or who have husbands who vote republican or perhaps call them trump voting husbahusbands, areg to peel away and do what liz cheney suggested they can to and has given them permission to do? they have to do all of this. the closing argument, that to-do list we mentioned, he's got an enemy's list and she has a to-do list that jim messina liked the sound of. she has to get out everybody. she's got to get out those women. she has to cut her losses against men. the people i was out with on saturday campaigning alongside campaign volunteers in york, pennsylvania, they are not focused on democracy and fascism. they are firmly focused on their rent. they were saying to these campaign volunteer it is, we still need to hear more about what she's going to do for our rent. prices have gone up. she has to be everything to everybody and hope that she can

cut away sliver by sliver by sliver, and then get the machine that the democrats are more confident about than the republicans, get the machine behind her to actually get those people to the polls. >> yeah. that is the question. at the end of the day, if this ends up being a tied race 12, 13 days from now, it's all about turnout at the very end. >> yeah. >> mika, it is all about turnout because, right now, it seems like such a close race, but anything could happen in the coming weeks, anything. willie, let me just say, really quickly, i'm not sure if i picked it up, but are you a "family man" fan or not? because along with "you've got mail," it's one of the most watched movies -- and "it's a wonderful life," that i can watch it and tear up.

>> i don't know if i've seen it, hate to say. >> nicholas cage. oh, my lord. >> the map on the back of the constitution? >> no, that's not it. >> oh. >> nicholas cage. you're killing me, don cheadle. i think it's on netflix. this is the recommendation for everybody. >> okay. >> you can put the paper bag down. regard what i am saying, this is a great movie. willie, at some point, you need to watch "family man." >> i like when nick cage is chugging vodka in the shower in las vegas. more heilemann's speed. >> great movie. >> i've seen none of these, and i don't care about any of them right now. >> mika, recent movie called "pig." you like "pig." you like animals. >> i do. >> devoted hunter, pig is stolen, goes to seek the pig. it's a story of -- >> wow. >> pig needs a name. >> "family man," watch "family man." >> all right. you can shut up now. still ahead on "morning

joe," long time democratic strategist james carville is laying out three reasons why he thinks kamala harris is going to win. we'll take a look at his arguments. first, steve rattner is standing by. he's got the charts at the western wall. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. donald trump is increasingly unhinged and unstable. in a second term, people like john kelly would not be there to be the guardrail against his propensities and his actions. those who once tried to stop him from pursuing his worst impulses would no longer be there. and no longer be there to rein him in. the bottom line is this, we know what donald trump wants. he wants unchecked power. the question in 13 days will be,

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care. every member of the military is tested for mental fitness except the commander in chief, who has the most responsibility in the world. and when a moment of crisis strikes, is this what we want in a president? unsure. - the origins of the uh... unstable. - hamas terrorist invasion... unpredictable. - anonymous... it's time every president is required to prove their mental fitness. sign the petition for presidential mental fitness. healthcare for action pac is responsible for the content of this advertising. beautiful shot of the capitol. half past the hour, everybody. nobel prize-winning economists are backing kamala harris' vision for the economy, calling it vastly superior to the plans laid out by former president donald trump. 23 u.s. recipients of the prestigious award have signed a

letter serving as a stamp of approval for harris' economic agenda. according to the group, the vice president's agenda will improve the overall health of the economy, while trump's policies will greatly increase tariffs. something he seems to be obsessed with. joining us now from the southwest wall, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. steve, take us through this. >> yeah, mika, you saw the nobel prize announcement by the economists. it's indicative of what economists feel about it. let me show you one more survey of economists, then we'll get spot details of why economists feel as strongly as they do. "wall street journal" surveyed 39 economists. what they found was this, a lot of support for many of harris' key plans. 74 support for her tax credit of $6,000 for new babies. 59 support for raising the corporate tax cut.

64% for capping insulin prices at $35 for everyone. and 46%, roughly 50/50, for capping out of pocket spending on prescription drugs. less support for a couple other things. basically, very strong support. contrast that over here with donald trump, who got 8% support from economists for making tax cuts permanent. zero support for his tariffs of 20%. 5% support for eliminating taxes on social security benefits. i'll come back to that in a second. dramatic contrast between support for harris on the one side, no support, basically, for trump on the other side. from 39 economists from across the board. >> steve, you can already hear trump's campaign, trump's supporters saying, these are pointy-headed economists, academics. who cares? we can point them, though, to the economists from "the wall street journal," or goldman sachs, who says that kamala harris' economy would be better than donald trump's. >> that's a good one.

>> let's move to your second chart about what a trump plan would actually do to the economist if implemented the way he is pitching it. >> yeah. why are these economists opposed to trump's plan? the economic effects would be pretty terrible. this is a study done by bloomberg economics. they found that harris' plan did not have much change in either of the gdp or inflation, which in a sense is a good thing at this point. look at what trump's plan would do. trump's plan would cut the gdp by 8.9%. let me put that in perspective for you. this is roughly twice the amount that the gdp went down during the financial crisis. >> wow. >> we would be looking at something between a recession and a depression. interestingly, as i'm sure you people know because we've talked about this many times, the tariffs would cause certainly a part of this. but the biggest cause, actually, of the drop are the mass deportations that trump is

talking about. he would take huge pieces of our labor force out of the country, send them back or send them somewhere else, and the result would be business wouldn't have labor. they wouldn't be able to produce things. you'd have this enormous economic contraction. this is something we've never seen before in terms of scoring a set of policy proposals from a presidential candidate. the other reason why trump's -- why harris seems to be doing better or may be doing better for your economic thoughts relative to trump, maybe people are figuring out what's actually in the two plans. one of the most important things in the two plans are the differences in their tax proposals. harris' tax proposal would raise incomes for people at the bottom 20%, for people in the 20% to 40%, by a fairly significant amount. she would raise taxes for people at the higher incomes down here, in the 99 to 100 and the 95 to

99. trump does the opposite. he raises after tax incomes for people at the highest incomes, up here, and believe it or not, if you're at the bottom, trump's tax plan would increase your taxes slightly. maybe people are figuring out these kinds of differences and changing their view of her economic plan versus trump's economic plan. >> steve, that's a good point. we were just talking earlier about a poll this morning that showed the economic advantage had been taken away from donald trump. there was also an ap poll that came out earlier this week that showed the same thing. it's pretty much a statistical tie, though harris is ahead on taxes. harris is ahead on housing costs. harris is ahead on some things no one would have been believed they would have been ahead of before harris-walz. it's very interesting. there is something else going on here, isn't there? when the biden white house tried to push up bidenomics, it didn't

work. inflation was still come down. gas prices were still come down. they hadn't gotten to where they are now. i wonder if some of this shift, and it's dramatic shifts unless you look at partisan polls, it's dramatic shifts like in this ap poll on the economy toward harris. i wonder if that has to do with the fact that gas prices just keep dropping. inflation just keeps dropping. the interest rates have dropped. i mean, people are actually seeing it in their day-to-day life. some things still cost too much when they go to the grocery store. some things still cost too much when they go to home depot. but, after a while, they're comparing it to what it was a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, and they see that everything is going in the right direction as far as inflation, cost of living, and, most importantly, the difference between the cost of living and their living wages going up. >> sure, joe.

yes, look, we have, as you have pointed out, and actually the cover of "the economist" this week calls our economy the envy of the world. we have the most amazing economy. our economic projections and our economic results continue to get better. growth is faster than people thought. as you said, inflation has come town almost to the fed's 2% target, which is really quite extraordinary. yeah, some things absolutely still cost too much. it is all moving in the right direction. >> all right. steve, let's move to your third chart about the national debt. obviously, donald trump as president racked up massive, historic debt for the country. what would it do this time around? >> maybe voters are starting to process this, as well. one of the things donald trump has done, among more of the cynical things he's done where he is throwing out tax cuts for everybody over time, this and that, is cutting taxes on social security benefits. that may sound like something you want to do, but the consequences of it would be pretty terrible. the social security trust fund,

which is already going to run out of money in 2034, would be decimated by eliminating social security taxes from their source of income. insolvency would come three years earlier, and there would be tax pressures on taxpayers to figure this out. the debt is maybe also something people are getting aware of. harris' tax proposals would have a minimal impact on the debt. $500 billion over ten years. that's relatively small in the context of what we've got. trump's tax cuts, even with -- these are his tariffs, by the way. we know who those would have done. trump's tax cuts, the cynical give away to anybody and everybody would add $3 trillion to the national debt over the next ten years. the party that's supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility turns out to be the party of fiscal irresponsibility. again, perhaps voters are starting to figure that out.

>> steve, with all that data behind you on the wall, including that eye-popping second chart that shows trump's plan would crater the economy, according to leading economists, why will you go to, i don't know, a cocktail party or event of some kind, be out on the street and talk to your friends who work in the financial world who say, "yeah, i'm going with trump this time"? what is the rational, as guys who understand the economy so well, who know the dow is above 43,000, who know tariffs are bad for the economy, will lead to inflation, et cetera, et cetera. what is the argument, people who are so smart about money and the economy are making in spite of the detadebeday data behind you? >> one, they don't think trump will do all this stuff. if that's the way you want to vote and you guess the guy who says he'll do all the stuff isn't going to do all the stuff, that's one way to approach it. the other thing they say is that

he will be good for business, that he'll cut regulations to the bone, he'll not block mergers the way the biden-harris administration have stopped mergers that were anti-competitive. essentially, it'll be free reign in washington for the business community, and they'll get whatever they want. they'll be able to essentially run their business, merge, do whatever, without a lot of government regulation. there is, i have to say, some unhappiness in the business community about regulations in the last four years. they view trump as the kind of -- no pun intended -- get out of jail card in terms of business and what they'd be able to do under a trump administration. >> it is incredible. dow and s&p at record levels. as the "economist" article andi

say all the time, we're the enemy of the world. texas has a bigger gdp than russia. california has a bigger gdp than india and canada and britain and every other country in the world. the supposed socialist state of california, other than three others. the dollar over the past four years, at 50 year highs. the jobless rate lower, below 4% for longer than any time over the last 30 years. i could continue on and on. i mean, amazon has a higher r&d budget than any g-7 country. could to on and on. it just never stops. you look at these individual people on wall street, these billionaires, that talk about, oh, trump might be better for us. andrew ross sorkin talked about one of trump's biggest fans, who

was against him after january 6th but changed his tune, schwartzman. he was worth $25 billion when vice president harris came. worth $50 billion today because the economy exploded so much and the dow exploded so much and the s&p has exploded so much. this is the story of all of these billionaires, steve. it doesn't make sense. for you and me, when you talk about the debt, i'm gravely concerned about the $35 trillion debt. this has to be addressed. yet, donald trump broke all records when he was president for being fiscally reckless. now, with his proposals, according to economists quoted by "the wall street journal," it's going to happen again. >> yeah, that's the risk, joe, is that he actually does this stuff this time. you get these kinds of results. just to add on to a couple things you said, because you

said it all so well. but, for example, on the businessmen, they complain about harris, but, yet, if you look at business investment in this country, it's off the charts high. why is it off the charts high? confidence in america, our strong economy, but also, ironically, some of the biden-harris policies, like the inflation reduction act, which has spurred this extraordinary upsurge in investment in renewable energy and all kinds of things for the new economy. i was in silicon valley last week, and we are the center of artificial intelligence, research and development in the world. there's nobody else who is even close. the dynamism out there and the excitement about that is really quite breathtaking. yes, this is -- this is an extraordinary economy. it's made a lot of people very, very wealthy. i think i personally, obviously, think it is a better bet than going down this rabbit hole and having 10%, 20% tariffs and a

disastrous economy. >> "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, thank you, as always. we appreciate your insight. we're going to have more with jim messina, katty kay, and john heilemann. also ahead, one of our next guests says there are three factors that will decide the election. "the atlantic's" george packer will explain that ahead on "morning joe." with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. and treatment is 4 times a year. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache.

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steve: i am a former commander of a u.s. army small arms training company, and i take the responsibility of being a gun owner very seriously. we need to make sure that these weapons don't end up in the wrong hands, but when donald trump had the chance, he refused to close loopholes that let criminals and dangerous people buy guns. that leads to more violent crime, and it puts our law enforcement at risk. kamala harris will do what it takes to keep our families and communities safe.

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long time democratic strategist james carville is out

with a new piece in "the new york times" titled, "three reasons i'm certain kamala harris will win." first, donald trump is an electoral loser, and this time will be no different. second, money matters, and ms. harris has it in droves. since joining the race, the vice president raised an eye-boggling $1 billion. third, it's just a feeling, my final reason is 100% emotional. i refuse to believe that the same country that has time and again overcome its mistakes to bend its future toward justice will make the same mistake twice. america overtake mr. trump in 2020. i know that we know we are better than this. jim messina, if you could comment on that. he didn't even mention dobbs. he didn't mention women's health care. >> no, exactly right. and he didn't mention january 6th either. >> right.

>> the close the harris campaign is focused on, abortion and january 6th. you'll talk to adrienne elrod. the campaign is banking on this. this is how they did better in the 2022 election, where everyone, except for people on this show, gave them brief for the way they closed in 2022. they're going back to this play book because it works and because it sets up the contrast we talked about earlier, mika, that is important. trump is in it for himself. she's in it for you. that ending is the right way to end a campaign. >> katty kay, jim has been saying this morning, a powerful visual image one week before election day for the vice president to be standing at the ellipse and really to bring home and remind people what a trump presidency looks like and what it may look like again. >> it does two things. it reminds everybody of the speech donald trump gave before the crowd that then went town and stormed the capitol on january 6th. we were all there. we were all watching. you'll have exactly the same images behind her.

it's a visual reminder of the chaos and the threat of the day. for those people who have been telling pollsters or have been telling doorknockers, as they've heard them tell them, we don't know if she could be president. we don't see her as president. is she strong enough. is she ready? does she have the policies? some of that, i think, is code for she's a woman and not a man, and we've never elected a woman for president before. but for kamala harris to stand on the ellipse in front of the white house with the white house as the backdrop, and it's a magnificent view of the white house from that side of the ellipse, it puts her in the position, right? i'm here. i've done the job. i belong here. visually, that could be a potentially powerful image for her to close on, too. >> the closing argument, there's a little bit of "i told you so" from the west wing office. this is what president biden has been saying all along. john heilemann, one thing we're hearing from those in the harris

campaign who acknowledge, this is a tight race, the margin of error race, is they do feel confident, though, they have room to grow, more than trump does, that trump hit his ceiling of support. first of all, are they right? if so, where is that room to grow? is it women voters, seniors? where is it? >> whole bunch of places. this is one thing that david plouffe will tell you. it's not like -- this is not like a soccer mom election. here's the one demographic we're going after them entirely. it'll be chipping away at small pieces of a lot of things, and some of them will be the nikki haley voters. some of these are going to be white working class women who are more independent, never trump voters from the beginning. i'll get back to your important question, but there's another thing that will happen on this ellipse thing. you know, trump, when he talks about that day, as he often does about everything, he boasts about it, talks about how it was the biggest rally he's ever

done. a million people on the mall, ridiculous, right? there will be images, not just what happened on january 6th on the capitol, but images of the actual rally. i'll be stunned, given the organizing muscle the harris campaign has, the money they have, if they don't turn out a larger crowd that day. if you go back to the politics of joy, a joyful, younger, larger crowd than trump had. is celebratory, happy, not angry, and doesn't march to the capitol. it'd be a contrast of a different kind, without calling out the visual -- the visual itself will make a statement. you talked about the ceiling. donald trump got 46.1%, then 46.8% in 2020. he's never had an approval rating north of 47%. it's not just the data of those two elections, but there's the

data over his nine years in american life. david plouffe would say, democrats have to brace themselves for the fact that trump will get over 47%. they expect him to get 48% to 48.5%. the third party vote is going to be almost nothing in most of the place. that's what their models tell them. you'll is a lot of 49.5% to 48.5% races, which are going to be crazy heartbreak -- never racking races for democrats. they'll be way closer than anything we saw in a lot of these states than what we saw in 2020, which were very close races. i think the historical data suggests that they are on to something. i do think that the one thing you can tell, and this is something david plouffe said to me for this week on "puck," he said, you know, our research showed, the reason she's making the argument she's making, he kept saying, the votes deciding

between the couch and harris or trump and harris are really, like, attune to the notion that, boy, trump is old. he seems like he is loing it. the things he is doing makes me nervous. reinforce all that. it's about remembering. it's about making -- bringing them to the doubts they already have about who trump is today. >> jim, final thought to you. >> look, your point about a tied race and a field operation is really what the harris campaign is banking on. i was talking to a republican official last night who walked me through the numbers of what they're doing. their entire theory, they're talking about a million voters. harris campaign is talking to a million voters every saturday. >> a day, yeah. >> national day of actions are a million voters every saturday. that is a huge advantage on the ground in a tight race. >> very tight race. >> one other thing that's really important is there are real consequences and real implications to trump's first term. some of them are bearing out right now. coming up in the next hour,

we'll have video, story of yet another woman who had a reproductive emergency. she had a pregnancy with potter's syndrome. totally unviable pregnancy. she was forced to deliver the baby. the baby was blue, and it died in her arms. these are the real implications of trump. those real consequences have ripple effects across communities. i don't think you should underestimate what is happening to women right now. >> that's right. >> to their bodies because of him. that'll play a big role. i expect to see a lot of women at the eclipse. jim messina, john heilemann, katty kay, thank you, all. ahead on "morning joe," senator chris murphy of connecticut will be our guest with his reaction to donald trump's alleged commens about -- they've been deeply reported, about trump preferring

hitler's generals. also ahead -- >> i have a game for you. put your block right in the middle. now you say something that makes you mad. >> people who do bad things. >> what kind of bad things? >> you know what you did. >> that was a clip of the tv series "before," starring six-time emmy winning actor billy crystal. crystal joins us live in the 9:00 a.m. hour with what to expect from his new show. we'll be talking a lot more with him. "morning joe" will be right back. by linking our tiktok accounts with the family pairing tool, it's easy to make sure what my teens are watching on their tiktok is safe and age appropriate. just like family movie night.

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our country deserves to have a president of the united states who isn't afraid of good ideas and doesn't stand on pride. if a perspective needs to be informed by different points of view to build consensus and to have a common sense approach. i'm never going to shy away from good ideas, and i'm not going to feel the need to have pride associate with a position that i've taken when the important thing is to build consensus to fix problems. i believe in fixing problems. i love fixing problems. and so i pledge to you to be a president who not only works for all americans but works on getting stuff done. that means compromise. it doesn't mean compromising your values or your principles.

it does mean working to get stuff done. and i pledge to you, i will do that. >> that's the real town hall, by the way. that was part of vice president kamala harris' answer last night in her cnn town hall when asked about how her positions have shifted on certain issues and why. during these incredibly divisive times, how do you think she did, joe? >> i think that answer is a great answer. >> really is. >> not just for her but for any politician. it borrows from what john maynard keynes once said when they asked why he changed his positions. keynes, the great economist said, when facts change, i change my mind. what do you do, sir? it was keynes' retort. you look at what happened during the last two years of donald trump's presidency, the first two years of joe biden's presidency. extraordinarily tumultuous times. we had covid.

we had donald trump's failure to actually confront covid. we had the economy shut down. we had the george floyd tragedy. we had marches. we had riots. we had the january 6th riot. we had crime going up. we had economic chaos donald trump's final years. we had a supply chain shortage. there's so many things that have happened and so many things that may have made sense in 2018, 2019, that haven't made sense in a changing world in '23 and '24. i'm very glad she's changed her position. what she's also done is, from 2018/2019 until now, she's moved far more toward the middle. i'm not really sure why that enrages trump republicans, that she's actually seen the facts as they are, and like conservatives are supposed to do, see what's in front of them and move your

views to fit your times. that's what she's done. >> yeah, and it's like -- >> i think it works very well. >> if i could add to that list, she's also, and i actually don't mean humor here, she's speaking in sentences that make sense. she's making points. she's articulating policy. she's explaining changes. and nothing like that is happening when it's coming out of donald trump's mouth. in fact, quite the opposite. >> i still have to say, willie, i find it absolutely hilarious that somebody who supports donald trump or somebody who is trying to get a permission structure to vote for donald trump will say, well, i didn't really like her third answer at the town hall meeting. >> right. >> then -- is willie there? i don't know. i was talking about willie. there he is, oh, willie geist. hey, willie, how are ya? good to see ya. willie is there.

good to know. thank you, t.j. oh, you know what? we have ai t.j. today. >> no, no, i'm here. >> working out the rough edges. they've got his voice down but, still, the ehh, it's a little slow. >> robotic, yeah. >> there's a delay on, like, youtube tv when you're watching a ball game. the person you're talking to on the phone screams, and you're like, what happened? what happened? then you see the home run. but it's happening here right here. but willie, i mean, it's so funny, i woke up this morning, was scrolling through everything, scrolling, and someone said, somebody i like, said, "well, harris made a real mistake. she's going out, and there's not the joy there. well, she's just -- she doesn't answer it as well as she should." so they're going to vote for donald trump? who is not appearing at a

debate. he dodged the debate because he knew he got shellacked. he got crushed. after the debate, his poll numbers collapsed. they know that. they kept him away from it. they kept him away from "60 minutes" because he knows he has to have people who will suck up to him. he has to have people that will, like, pat him on the back, that will make everybody okay, that'll draw the water. a warm tub there, donny? warm tub. whereas, kamala harris is going out and answering tough questions. i think that's what americans want. it's crazy that people might look at her performance and go, well, that third, fourth answer wasn't really to the point, yet you're comparing that to somebody who can't complete sentences, that when he does complete thoughts, he's telling fox news hosts that he thinks the army, the military, the national guard needs to get involved and arrest his political opponents.

saying, when pushed back, yes, that's exactly what i mean. they did it to me, so i'll be able to do it to them. talking about enemies of the state. talking about -- bringing up the japanese-american internment camps. >> yeah. >> raising the question for everybody, is that what he's talking about doing to his politicalopponents? he won't deny it. that's the crazy thing. >> yeah. i had the same thought, joe. last night was supposed to be the final presidential debate. the reason vice president harris did that town hall is they had a hole to fill, something in her schedule, so she did it. was asked fair and tough questions by anderson cooper, answered them. we saw one of the answers there. you can imagine when donald trump, if he had been there, was asked the same questions, he would have whined about the moderator. he would have whined about the network. he would have trashed the network on truth social afterwards. none of that happened from vice president harris. she said, these are fair questions. i'm here to answer them. i think the answer we just

showed, where she explained her evolution on a lot of these issues over the years, is really important. not just among maga voters but among some americans, they do wonder, and some of this has taken hold, is she now the person she's telling us she is? or is she still, as her critics have said, a closet, left-wing radical from san francisco, is the way the trump campaign would put it. they need convincing she's not just saying these things to be elected. that she is who she says she is and will implement these policies she's pitching. that was an important answer. again, you're right, joe, i heard some of the same people that you're talking about. i think i know what you're talking about. saying, well, she did have a little bit of word salad in that one answer at the 45-minute mark. have you watched donald trump speak in public, ever? but more recently, in particular. he's talking about arnold palmer or anything else. yeah, she held her own last night. she answered the questions. something that donald trump has not been willing to do.

let's bring in mike barnicle. >> hey, mike. >> sitting here. >> how are you? >> sitting here in silence next to me. figured we ought to mention his name. also professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. mark mckinnon and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, claire mccaskill. >> great group. >> good morning to you all. so vice president kamala harris leaned into the comments from former trump chief of staff john kelly. the retired general telling "the new york times" the former president repeatedly praised adolf hitler. think about that for a moment. that he meets the definition of a fascist. the vice president addressed the remarks outside the naval ab observatory, and then at the town hall on cnn last night. >> donald trump is increasingly unhinged and unstable. and in a second term, people like john kelly would not be there to be the guardrail against his propensities and his

action. those who once tried to stop him from pursuing his worst impulses would no longer be there. and no longer be there to rein him in. so the bottom line is this, we know what donald trump wants. he wants unchecked power. the question in 13 days will be, what do the american people want? thank you. >> do you think donald trump is a fascist? >> yes, i do. yes, i do. and i also believe that the people who know him best on this subject should be trusted. again, look at their careers. these are not people, with the exception, i think, of only mike pence, these were not politicians. these are career people who have served at the highest roles of national security. who served as generals in our

military. who are highly respected. talking about the person who would be commander in chief. not to mention what we know and what they've told us about how he talks about the military. servicemen and women. referring to them as suckers and losers. how he demeans people who have taken an oath to sacrifice their life for our country. >> claire, vice president harris saying last night, and repeatedly before, don't take my word for it. take it from the people who worked alongside him, the people who were non-partisan. in the case of some of them, ran with him, worked him,haved and he talked about the military and the american people. is that an effective argument for her? >> yeah, i think it is. especially when you look at who john kelly is and his career, a four star general, a man who lost his son in combat in

afghanistan. i know john kelly pretty well. i worked with him when i was ranking member on homeland security. this is not a man who lies. you know, willie, i was struck by steve rattner's answer to your question about business people that are endorsing donald trump. i don't think i ever recall an election where one candidate is required to be perfect and the other candidate, well, it's okay that he's lying. it's okay that he's cheating. it's okay that he's threatening. it's okay that he says things that are outrageous. because, you know, we don't think he really means it. so, essentially, these smart business people who have endorsed trump are saying, we're voting for him because we don't believe him. meanwhile, he is appealing to a mass of people who believe every word he says and are convinced that, somehow, all of his lies are truth. that he is some kind of savior for them. he doesn't even like them.

i think kamala harris' comment last night in the town hall, that jim messina stressed in her earlier segment, you know, he has an enemy's list, she has a to-do list. she is looking out at you. he is looking in the mirror. she sees you. he only sees himself. i do think that is a really strong argument. i've had enough of anybody writing words saying, somehow, she's not doing it well enough, when you have that kind of train wreck on the other side. >> you know, mike barnicle, i'm just -- i just -- i was really taken. i didn't think people would have the nerve to do it, but how naive am i, right? but how sleazy is it that you have donald trump, you have republican members of congress, you have trump talking heads, you have former journalists with newsletters that are going around and questioning the honor and the integrity of john kelly?

>> oh, my god. >> yeah, that's -- >> john kelly -- >> it's sad. >> his uncle leo fought on okinawa, alongside a close friend of mine, came to be a close friend, former treasury secretary in massachusetts, bob crane. john kelly tried to emulate leo from the time he was about 10 years of age. john kelly is nothing less than fully honorable. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. john kelly lost his youngest son, bobby, in afghanistan. john kelly, three days after bobby was killed in afghanistan, because he had made a commitment to speak to a group of marines, showed up, spoke to them, and showed a film clip of what it means to have courage, honor,

pride, in the work you do. it was a clip of two young marines stationed at a guard post, and the guard post was -- you could see the truck driven by guerrillas coming toward the guard post. this was in afghanistan. they stood there. they stood and did their duty. they died that day. he gave a speech about honor, courage, character, and being an american citizen, and being a united states marine corps member. john kelly is the only person in this debate who has honor, who has courage, who has truth, because that's the way he has lived his entire life. for anyone to be questioning his integrity is totally obscene. >> mark mckinnon, i'll start with you. you've been traveling around, taking a look at what's going on. what's breaking through? what's not? >> well, carville had his three

reasons. i wrote about three reasons in "vanity fair." i think there's three significant gaps that make me believe harris is going to win, and maybe even comfortably. >> yeah. >> the gender gap, which is, you know, i think women are going to crawl over broken glass to break the glass ceiling. >> yeah. >> there is an enthusiasm gap by almost ten points, harris over trump. and there is a favorability gap. she's gone through the election. more people have a favorable opinion of her than unfavorable opinion, which is unheard of in a presidential election. trump, meanwhile, is minus about 20. i leven that by, i'm doing a documentary on gen-x. i went to a turning point rally with charlie kirk. there was a sea of young men with red hats out there. there's something happening with young men that, again, i think is something that's off the radar screen that bears watching. >> without question. i guess, do they turn out to

vote or like the rallies and the energy behind it? >> for sure. >> we'll find out in 12 days. eddie, what do you make of the closing arguments from harris campaign? she's firing up the base on the one hand. she's also reaching out with liz cheney events to republicans who need permission to go out and say, i don't like donald trump, but i need somewhere to land. she's putting all these pieces together here down the stretch. >> i think it is a powerful closing argument. among the people i tend to affiliate with, the progressives and the lean-leaning folk, there's some trepidation around trying to appeal to those folks, the republicans on the margins. >> do they want to win or not? >> understand the politics of it all. we got it. one of the things, the argument i've been trying to have with my leftist friends is -- why are you putting so much emphasis on the election? why aren't you thinking about organizing? i tell this story all the time about the legendary organizer. bob told me once, if it wasn't for the civil rights act of 1960, which was a piece of

legislation, they couldn't organize for voter registration in freedom summer. they would have locked them up and threw away the key, like apartheid south africa. the civil rights act of 1960 made it possible for them to struggle. you have to think of the context. what would it mean to organize under a presidency for donald trump? what would it mean to organize under a presidency for kamala harris? understand the difference. >> what does trump's last presidency and his existence now as potential next presidency mean right now? what are we seeing? you mentioned women. you mentioned women. how they may be the difference here. i'll show you why. i've been talking about this, but we have yet another. this is powerful to hear from women themselves. there is a new instagram account called abortion in america. it's sharing real women's harrowing stories of how these strict abortion laws, due to trump, have personally affected them and their families.

listen to this story of just one of the women featured. ♪♪ >> i found out i was pregnant. i went and had my anatomy ultrasound done. the doctor diagnosed the baby with potter's syndrome. with potter's syndrome, babies only live a few minutes to a few hours. i could not get preterm induced due to the law. i'm having to carry him to full term. i remember my ob handing me a baby boy that was blue and cold, gasping for air. for 94 minutes. and i just held him. we just watched our son suffocate. the trauma i went through, i

wish it upon no one. >> right. that was deborah, whose reel on instagram has been viewed more than 50,000 times in less than a day. her story was featured in "the washington post" back in may. a child she wanted, who would not survive, yet she was denied the health care she desperately needed. that piece reads in part, "the day before milo was born, they sat down with their son to explain the baby's body had stopped working and that he would not come home. instead, someday, they told caden they would all meet as angels. the 4-year-old burst into tears, telling them that he did not want to be an angel." mark mckinnon, two daughters. i have two daughters. joe has a daughter. willie has a daughter. mike barnicle, you have daughters and granddaughters. claire, for all of our daughters, whether you're a democrat or a republican out

there, this is the reality now. i truly believe this is the issue that is already having crushing, gutting, wrenching, ripple effects to women across the country. it doesn't decide democrat or republican. this happens to all women. >> yeah. that's a brutal piece of video. the reality that it represents is heart breaking to a woman who has -- particularly a woman who has had the honor and privilege and plessblessing to give birth. you know, the idea that you would have to carry a child to term that was going to die for no reason. >> and suffer. >> and suffer. other than a bunch of politicians trying to score some

political points. that's what is so disingenuous about ted cruz. i watched him refuse to answer a question about whether or not he supported a national abortion ban. refused to answer the question. texas, wake up. wake up, women of texas. what they have done in texas is unbelievable. just like my state. >> yeah. >> you know, i think of the young rape victims that i dealt with as a prosecutor. sometimes children that were barely able in terms of their age to give birth. i remember, there weren't many, but there were a few who had been impregnated by incest. in my state, the politicians said, yeah, well, you have to, you know, buck up, young 13-year-old. you're going to give your uncle's baby life. you're going to carry your stepfather's baby to term. this is really something that i think moves women in a way that

many people in the republican party just don't get. >> right, and you heard it from liz cheney, who even understands that this is too extreme. even more so, that suffering, that completely unnecessary trauma that didn't have to happen. there was medical care available and that has been used in the past for 50 years before it was taken away by donald trump. so this situation that deborah went through, this trauma that not just deborah went through but her son caden went through, her husband went through, their friends went through, their neighbors went through, this spirals out. the fact that what happened to her and the baby, milo, was completely unnecessary.

because of donald trump, rights and health care ripped away, joe. >> because donald trump, because of old state legislators, because of men who think they know how to control women's bodies better than women know how to control their own bodies. here, we had a situation where deborah, her husband, and her son had to go through unspeakable trauma. and we actually have a world, mark mckinnon, created by donald trump and trump republicans, where this baby was born. they knew he was going to suffocate slowly, over 90 minutes. but this baby was born who

suffocated slowly in front of everybody's eyes for 90 minutes, and that happened for one reason and one reason only. because donald trump and these state legislators and trump governors decide they know better for women and their families what they should do than the women themselves. this is a tragedy for these women, but it is also a tragedy for the men and women, the mothers, the fathers, the grand mothers, the granddaughters, and the children who love them. >> so powerful, joe and mika, that video, just heart wrenching. >> there are many different ones. >> we will never hear about them. but it's one thing to have

rights -- or it is one thing not to have right. it is another thing to have rights taken away from you. this will be the first post dobbs presidential election. i think that this is going to be a huge factor that hasn't been really -- that's really off the radar screen. by the way, even charlie kirk, who is the tip of the spear for donald trump among young conservatives, says the four things he is worried about, abortion animating democrats. he thinks there's more republican bleeds on this issue than has been recorded, especially, he says, in his home state of arizona. he's worried about women being more animatd than men. finally, the democratic ground game. three of the four relate to abortion. >> yeah. listen, as important as trump's fascism is and is the lead story every day, his cozying up to dictators, his obsession with hitler that has now come out, what he's said about our veterans, and what he wants to do with the military against its

political adversaries is all huge news. this is the future we're looking at in the next trump term, if there is one. but this is what voters know right now. that he is killing us. i'm talking about us women. he is killing us. he is putting us at risk. he is making us afraid to have babies. he is putting our reproductive health at risk. some women have died already because of this. so we can see right now what's coming. these headlines and very good reporting, by the way, that shouldn't be questioned by idiots about what trump has said about hitler, that's incredibly important to know. but i do understand that people who are busy and people who are just tapping in may not be able to comprehend, because we've been free. we've been comfortable. we cannot comprehend that.

i understand that. i validate that it is hard to go from here to there. it is where we're going. i hope we don't find out the hard way. but what's happening with women right now is real. it is playing out across america. political strategist mark mckinnon, thank you very much for coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," with less than two weeks until election day, democrats face a tough battle to keep their razor thin majority in the state. we'll talk to democratic senator chris murphy about the party's efforts to retain control. "morning joe" is back in a moment.

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as president, it's called extreme power. you have extreme power. just by the fact you say, close the border, and the border is closed. that's it. very simple. you don't need all this nonsense they talk about. >> that's donald trump on tuesday dismissing the bipartisan work in congress on a plan to secure the border and, instead, touting the, quote, extreme power he would wield as president. you don't need legislation. you just need him. his unchecked power is the argument. let's bring in chris murphy, member of the senate foreign relations committee and, of course, a key negotiator in the bipartisan plan to strengthen security at the southern border. the bill that donald trump had

his republicans in congress kill. senator, good morning. so much to talk about here 12 days out on the campaign. your reaction having worked literally for months on the legislation, to what donald trump said. >> well, first of all, the term extreme power, you find that nowhere in the constitution. donald trump is telling you over and over and over again that you are going to be witnessing a constitutional crisis the minute he becomes president. he is prepared to use the levers of the federal government to take power and to punish his political enemies. but, of course, i remain angry and heartbroken that we worked for six months on a bipartisan plan to secure the southwest border. republicans were in the room for all of it. when donald trump said jump, they just asked how high. he said, i want to kill that bill because it'd work. because it would bring order to the southwest border. i don't know how i'd win if the

border was under control, if i couldn't use chaos at the border as a means to try to make americans scared of their neighbors, of people who are different from them, of migrants coming to this country. republicans almost too a person, follow donald trump's lead. we had probably 20 votes for the bipartisan border security bill. when donald trump came out against it, we lost almost all of them. it tells you what life will be like if donald trump is president. and if republicans run the senate, they won't question his abuse of power over and over again. they've done what he's wanted on the immigration bill, and they'll do what he wants if they have power in the senate and if he is in the white house. >> senator, what you just said prompts me to ask you the following question. if you look at all the polls, especially the questions asked in polls, there seldom is a question about the cost of division, intentional division caused by people in one political party more than the

other political party. what impact do you think it has had on the dialogue and the temperature of this nation, that from the top on down, from donald trump on down, a lot of republicans are seemingly intent on using language and behavior to further divide americans? >> so that is the primary lesson that i glean from trump's decision to kill the bipartisan immigration bill. listen, we had a real opportunity to bring, not just the congress, but the country together on an issue that does often divide us, immigration and the border. donald trump killed that bill for one reason. because division and hate is his oxygen. he literally can't imagine how he would win power or hold power if he couldn't convince us to be scared of our neighbors, to be scared of immigrants, to be scared of muslims, to be scared of gay children. it was harrowing to watch him

make that decision and watch republicans follow him. listen, i don't want this country to fall apart, but a second donald trump presidency, when there is nobody like general kelly in office to try to stop him from doing the most hateful things to divide us from each other, locking up his political enemies, setting up mass detention camps for migrants, that's a really, really scary world to live in. remember, when democrats were in charge, we were passing bipartisan legislation. the gun bill was bipartisan. infrastructure bill was bipartisan. even the gay marriage bill was bipartisan. most americans want us to be working together. that's what democrats do when we're in power. donald trump won't bring republicans and democrats together. without adults in the white house in donald trump's second term, the most hateful, most reckless, most divisive thanks that could cause the entire country to fall apart, he'll be able to do those things. he's not bluffing. he's not kidding. everybody needs to understand that. >> senator, good morning. you've been on the campaign

trail helping your senate colleagues. in pennsylvania a few day ago helping senator casey there. polls show a tightening race there. tightening races throughout the country. that tends to happen barrelling into election day. pundits seem to think democrats have an uphill climb to keep the senate. give us your sense of what issues are resonating with voters as you head out on the trail with your colleagues. >> yeah, i think there are a number of issues. listen, economics are still the top issue for people. i do think that many americans don't believe what trump is saying, right? trump is saying on the campaign trail that his economic policy will boil down to two things. a second, massive tax break for billionaires and corporations. paired with a $4,000 tax increase on americans through this sort of thoughtless policy of tariffs. tariffs are useful when they're used in a powerful way.

donald trump talking about a broad based tariff would raise prices for the average american by $4,000. i think what is keeping some of the races close all across the country, in pennsylvania and otherwise, is that americans, you know, think it is bluster. it's not. we have to do a explaining to people that kamala harris is talking about tax cuts for working families, folks who want to start businesses, an easier ability to get into your first home. donald trump is literally telling you, if you elect him, he'll give his tax breaks to his friends at mar-a-lago and everybody else who get tax increases. it hasn't burned in enough in the electorate, and we have to make sure it does between now and election day. >> chris murphy of connecticut, thank you, as always, for being on this morning. we appreciate it. all right. take care. coming up, donald trump's anti-immigrant conspiracies

spread to another community. what he is saying about one town in pennsylvania and its potential impact on the presidential race. "the atlantic's" george packer takes us inside his new reporting. some days, you can feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days

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your famous line about springfield,ohio, and i take your point that 15,000 to 20,000 legal haitian immigrants suddenly in the area creates a lot of friction. you know it's gone viral. they're eating the dogs, eating the cats. you say you're reporting what had been said. why not say now, well, look, that turned out not to be true? >> i don't know if it is true or not true. >> eating the pets, you don't know if it is true or not true? it's been debunked. >> what about the goose, the geese? what happened there? they were all missing. >> there was one missing. >> howie, i have no idea. i said something. the big problem is that you can't put 30,000 people into a 50,000 person town or city and expect their city to even survive or do well. what they've done to springfield, ohio, is very, very unfair. i mean, there are a lot of other stories that i've heard that are

horrible. just haven't said it. maybe i will, maybe i won't. but that's a story that was reported. i said that. why don't you go after the newspaper that wrote it? don't, you know, blame me. >> you know, a note to hosts who want to help trump out, not necessarily howie, but, you know, the ones who are like, you don't really mean that, do you? you don't really mean -- let's talk about that. he's going to double down. you can't help him. he means it. donald trump's lies about legal haitian migrants in springfield, ohio, have received a lot of attention, but that's not the only haitian community he has disparaged. he's also made false claims about the migrants in charleroi, pennsylvania. trump told crowds at multiple rallies this fall that haitian immigrants had bankrupted the town and caused an increase in crime there. joining us now, staff writer at "the atlantic," george packer.

his latest piece entitled "the three factors that will decide the election" profiles charleroi and explains how the town embodies the country's changing political dynamics. good to have you on the show, george. tell us more about what is happening in charleroi and how it pertains to the election as a whole. >> i went out there because there are two things that have happened recently that really are a microcosm, i think, for what's happened across the rust belt. one is working class jobs leaving over many years, and including now a glass factory that had been opened since the 1890s. the private equity partners who own the company that controls that factor announced they were shutting it down and moving some of the operations to ohio. that'd be over 300 union jobs lost to a town that's already lost hundreds and hundreds of jobs and a lot of its

population. the other thing last month, donald trump heard about charleroi, heard about it, and started talking about haitians. there have been 2,000 or so migrants arriving in charleroi legally to take the jobs americans typically don't want. low-wage jobs, working in food preparation. trump spoke a whole lot of lies in a very short period of time about charleroi being bankrupt, about gangs, crime rising, the place being chaotic. i went there. none of that is true. trump then, his attention span seemed to be too limited for charleroi, moved on, so it didn't have the legs springfield's story did. it left behind a devastating effect in the town. it is a small town. i would say a fragile town. it's true, there are long-time residents, then 2,000 immigrants

arrive and it causes strain. the migrants created a huge economic lift to the town which was so depressed. i spoke to the manager and the council president. they said, now we have houses that were empty. they now have tenants. we have taxpayers. we have people with jobs. these are taxpaying, job occupying migrants who have given the town a boost. now, they're not even on the streets because of fear of the repercussions repercussions of trump's casual remarks about gangs and illegals. so with one word, he can take a town that was just beginning to make a comeback and turn it upside down again, and so let's not forget, two things have happened there.

one is the migrants, but the other is the loss of jobs, and i think this election really is about whether -- which party can claim to be actually working on behalf of people in a place like charleroi or are they whipping up hatred there or are they -- have they forgotten it? are they indifferent to it? and the people there, i have to say, do not see the democratic party necessarily as their champions because they haven't seen it over the last 50 years with the town's decline. >> so interesting because that's what i want -- eddie, i'll let you take the next question, but i'll lead you a question, is in these towns that so much havoc and chaos and damage has been wreaked by trump's lies about them, are the towns divided? are there still people who -- is it creating more division in the town between republicans and democrats and legal migrants or are they devastated by what

trump has done, and, you know, seeing it for what it is? >> it's probably some combination of both, but there's an attempt to account for the devastation in their life. >> yes. >> i think the three things that george packer lays out in terms of working class, decline, corporate greed, and anger, is an attempt to understand what has happened over the last 40 to 50 years in these communities and a lot of times it involves scapegoating. it involves the problems for me isn't about corporations coming in to exploit it. it's the people who are others are coming in and taking my benefits. >> it works. it's an effective strategy for donald trump. >> it's right in that sweet spot of grievance and hay hatred, and george packer, this is eddie, and the last one is anger, but you want to also argue that education, not race, is the starkest division in the country, and in the history of the united states, nativism and race are intermittently linked

and in so many ways, race is the mold by which class is experienced in the united states. talk a little bit more about that claim, particularly when we know that the kkkkk's presence a town like charleroi is having an impact, and talking about race is the starkest division. >> i don't think the kkk is in charleroi, but a flier from kentucky started in charleroi. >> there you go. >> a lot of haitians decided not to go on the street. i think you're absolutely right. race and class and the interaction between them, defining and the determinate factors in this election and in the last two election, but the sharpest divide in our politics today is education. it's whether you have a college degree or not. that is the likeliest determinate of whether you're going to vote republican or democratic, and that's why we're seeing larger numbers, and i met some of them in western pennsylvania, of latinos and

black voters who are moving toward trump. they're not colleged educated. they're working class, and they think he'll do better for the pocketbook, and the cost of living. that's the kind of thing i heard, and when i hear that, i think race is never to be discounted in america. it's always a factor. it's a factor in charleroi, but if that's the only thing you're looking at, you're not going to understand the trends, and you're not going to be able to anticipate how those trends will play out in elections. >> the harris campaign is mindful of some of that movement among young, black men and latino voters as well. is there a message that could reach them in the next 12 days that would change their minds? we have been going through this morning, but almost every day, all the economic data that shows a kamala harris economy according to goldman sachs and everybody else, would be better for everyone than would a donald trump economy.

are those voters still reachable, those working class voters we're talking about? >> what i heard in western pennsylvania was the cost of living. that was the only economic issue that mattered, as well as, of course, the outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries and anti-union states. so the cost of living continues to be the dominant thing, and when i asked, well, hasn't joe biden been very pro-union? hasn't his industrial policy tried too bring back manufacturing jobs? it was as if i was talking about something that happened in another country or maybe 20 years ago. it just didn't resonate the way the price of groceries and of housing and of gas resonated, and i don't know what you can do about that in 12 days on a campaign. >> so george, reading the piece last night, i figured, and you can tell me if i'm wrong, of coursely -- obviously, but you drove from pittsburgh to charleroi, pennsylvania, and you had the intersection of class, race, and resentment. >> that's about right.

all i knew, mike, was two things had just happened there. one, this factory had closed. it was a legacy factory. it was the pride of the town. it made pyrex. it's the only place i think that makes pyrex, and i met a woman who worked at the factory who said her grandfather worked there for 50 years and set his wall clock by the noon whistle, and she had worked there for 35 years and was going to get about $8,000 in severns for two-thirds of her life, and the other thing that happened was that trump put it on his hit list of horrible places ruined by haitian migrants, which had been as i saw, firsthand with my own lies, a lie. the place was coming back. there were no bakeries and new stores. there were people working with young families, not just in aging white population, but a young, black population. that's not an easy mix in a place like charleroi, but given

time, it could work, but if you have a leader who's whipping up hatred and targeting whole groups for vitriolic rhetoric, it will stir people up. there were trump signs everywhere. it is trump country among the white class population. >> the new piece is online now for "the atlantic." staff writer, george packer, thank you very much for your reporting and for coming on the show today to share it. still ahead, we're taking a look at kamala harris' push for latino voters. telemundo's julio vicaro joins us to discuss the new sitdown with the democratic nominee. and we'll talk to adrienne elrod about the vice president's plans to present her closing pitch to voters next week in a speech from the capitol ellipse, the site of donald trump's january 6th rally. "morning joe" is coming right back. h rally. "morning joe" is coming right back

all right. coming up on "morning joe," more coverage on the election, but also joe's interview with bill maher. he turns the tables after appearing on his show and interviews bill. it's revealing and fascinating and we'll have that straight ahead. also, joe's interview -- or our interview live here on "morning joe" with billy crystal who will be joining us here on set. he has a lot to say including a new movie out. we're back in a moment. say incl new movie out. we're back in a moment

san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love.

san francisco's leadership is failing us. that's why mark farrell is endorsing prop d. because we need to tackle our drug and homelessness crisis just like mark did as our interim mayor. mark farrell endorsing prop d, to bring the changes we need for the city we love. donald trump made this very clear. this is about him taking full control of the military to use against his political enemies, taking full control of the department of justice, to prosecute those who disagree with him, taking full control of the media on what is told and what is told to the american public, and the opportunity here and the absolute requirement of americans is to understand that this rhetoric has not been used in this country, certainly not by the party's presidential nominee. >> do you think donald trump is

a fascist? >> yes, i do. yes, i do. and i also believe that the people who know him best on this subject should be trusted. >> all right. here we go. the closing message that's beginning to emerge from the harris-walz campaign, especially in light of recent reporting by michael schmidt and in "the atlantic." good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it's thursday, october 24th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire, nbc news and chief political columnist at "puck," john heilemann. ceo of the group, jim messina. he was deputy chief of staff to president obama and ran his 2012 re-election campaign, and also with us, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us. good to have you all this morning. joe, the polls are showing once

again a very close race, but the messages -- the final messages are beginning to emerge. >> breaking news. this race is now a tie. >> yeah. >> and so it's interesting conservatives -- well, conservatives don't support donald trump. so they probably are thinking harris is going to win, but trump republicans will look at the polls they want to look at. >> mm-hmm. >> harris supporters will look at the polls that they want to look at, but i just -- i just want to say there's been some chatter about this october surprise that maybe it was michael schmidt's reporting or jeffrey goldberg's reporting that was an october surprise. maybe it was that kamala harris said he was a fascist or maybe it was donald trump's longest serving chief of staff who was a general, a highly respected general whose son gave his life

to america in defense of america, and who's committed his entire life to defending this nation who said that donald trump was yes indeed a fascist, and also the chairman of the joint chiefs, donald trump's last chairman of the joint chiefs said donald trump was a fascist to the core. those aren't really the october surprises. the october surprises, willie, are not what everybody else is saying about donald trump, and i understand there's some pathetic people out there. >> yep. >> some pathetic people that are trying to cozy up to donald trump who are trying to blame jeffrey goldberg. they're trying to blame general kelly for a, quote, october surprise that they're making up. of course, imagine that. people actually questioning the integrity of those two, questioning the integrity of general kelly, but no. those aren't the october surprises.

the october surprises are what donald trump says, and what he has said every time he has opened his mouth. the october surprise is that donald trump has said he's going to arrest his democratic opponents. the october surprise is that donald trump has said he's going to use the army and he's going to use the national guard against his political opponents. that's the october surprise. the october surprise is that donald trump has called nancy pelosi, adam schiff, called his democratic opponents the enemies from within. the october surprise has been that donald trump has said that democrats and people in the press who do not support him are the enemy from within, and more dangerous to america. he has said it -- he has said it. not me. not kamala harris, not general

kelly, not michael schmidt, and not jeffrey goldberg, but it's donald trump who has said that nancy pelosi is more of an enemy to america than kim jong-un, than xi, than putin, and all the other communist leaders and dictators that want to destroy america. willie, that's the october surprise, and that's big -- that's donald trump's biggest problem right now. >> an october surprise that is not at all surprising from donald trump, because it's the kind of rhetoric we have been hearing consistently, but you're right, that he has dug in much deeper on it, and he said, i was speaking off the cuff or you didn't mean that. he's making very clear that that's what he believes, that the military may be used and may be deployed against people he views as enemies of the country, people like adam schiff and nancy pelosi, that you're talking about, and these

comments put together with what we heard from general kelly as you said, a decorated four-star general, are fodder for vice president harris. she talked about them in a town hall with cnn last night, trying to make clear the choice here, how stark it is, what the country will look lick, how different it may be if he's re-elected president versus her being elected president, mika, and she has, you know, we talked about the campaign of joy coming out of the convention in chicago and all of those things and that was real and that was good, and the enthusiasm has stayed up since then, but she's drawing this contrast of here's what i believe. you've heard my economic plan. i've made the speeches about how i want to make the country better for you, but let's also consider where this country goes if we head down a different path. >> what she's doing is two things at once. her campaign is about joy in america, freedom in america. it's about women who are right now in danger for their lives

because of the health care procedures that donald trump has taken away from them. i mean, these are serious issues. she wants to bring that back to -- she wants to bring freedom back to women who have lost 50 years of freedoms. it is still an -- if you look at their social media outreach, joe, and you look at the way that they speak, it's a joyful campaign, but it is reflecting off who they are running against, a dark, dismal, fascist and increasingly obviously fascist person. >> well, yeah. i mean, again, it's pretty unanimous if you talk to, you know, even if you talk to the foremost expert in fascism in america, a his historian who has been around long enough and rejected that label and hates

using the label, but also says it fits too tightly, too comfortably on donald trump, but this is -- this is what i find fascinating, john heilemann, is that donald trump has proven what many libertarians have said all along, and that is that if donald trump can take the rights away from women that they have had for 50 years, and have the government making decisions over a woman's body, the government, the federal government saying the state government can now make any decisions they want to make over women's health care, and they take control of a woman's body and take away her health care choices, the libertarians have said, if they can do that to women, this federal government that we libertarians don't think can do much right, they can take away

my rights too, and in the final weeks of this campaign, donald trump has proven these libertarians right. he has said if you speak out against me, you are the enemy from within. if you are against me politically, then you are the enemy within, and i can use the military and the national guard against you. if you say something on cbs news, i can take over cbs and shut it down. if you say something on a comcast network that i don't like, i can take it over and shut you down. donald trump has promised -- he's promised, after being pushed back on from fox news hosts, from laura ingraham, from sean hannity, from howie kurtz saying, you don't mean that, do you? you don't really mean you're going to arrest your political opponents, do you? donald trump said in effect, yeah, sure. sure, i do.

so now we're not only talking about taking away a 50-year right that women had to make health care decisions about their body, we're now talking about donald trump taking away the right of people to speak out against him. donald trump taking away the right of political people, to run in the democratic party against him and his policies, and he has promised this repeatedly even when pushed back upon in the final weeks of this campaign. so yes. this is no longer about women. this is about women and men. this is about health care decisions. this is about free speech. this is about the first amendment. >> yes. it's about all those things, joe, and i think it comes back to this -- to the discussion that we had on the town hall last night about whether donald trump is a fascist and what you just mentioned a second ago,

this is a -- constitutional republics are very hospitable to classical liberalism and classical conservativism. they're not generally hospitable towards communism and the far-left authoritarian, or the fascism and the far-right authoritarianism. if you are trying to run effectively as a consolidaor of federal power for your ideological, not as someone who wants to disperse federal power and keep the government in check, which is really what classical liberals and conservatives want to do, you want to take all the power of the state and build something that looks as powerful and as disrespectful of and is willing to trample over basic constitutional rights as what fascism and authoritarian and autocraies are. it's an anthetical to inception,

and it makes it clear that we're all in this together, and that's one of the truths is that when you start taking away one kind of right and the state becomes so powerful it doesn't care, it makes no distinctions in the end between men and women. it makes no distinctions between health care and criminal justice or things in almost any realm of policy. it's all just about the power of the state under the command of an individual leader, whether that's again, on the far left or the far right. donald trump has kind of gone around the circle now. he's not that far apart from being what he condemns most, which are communists and socialists. coming you, vice president kamala harris will deliver her closing argument next week in washington at the same spot where donald trump spoke before the insurrection on january 6th. we'll get a preview of those remarks from campaign spokesperson adrienne elrod. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." adrienne elrod. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

nobel prize-winning economists are backing kamala harris calling her plan vastly superior to the plans laid out by former president donald trump. 23 u.s. recipients of the prestigious award have signed a letter serving as a stamp of approval for harris' economic agenda. according to the group, the vice

president's agenda will improve the overall health of the economy while trump's policies will greatly increase tariffs, something he seems to be obsessed with. joining us now from the southwest wall, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. steve, take us through this. >> yeah, mika, well, you saw the nobel prize announcement by the economists, and it's indicative of what economists feel about it. so let me show you one other survey of economists, and then we'll get into the details of why economists feel as strongly as they do. so "the wall street journal" surveyed 39 economists, and what they found was this. a lot of support for many of harris' key plans, 74% support for her tax credit of $6,000 for new babies, 59% support for raising the corporate tax cut. 64% for capping insulin prices at $35 for everyone, and 46% roughly to 50/50 for capping

out-of-pocket spending on prescription drugs. contrast that over here with donald trump who got 8% support from economists for making his tax cuts permanent. exactly 0% support for his tariffs of 20%, and 5% support for eliminating taxes on social security benefits and i would come back to that in a second. so dramatic contrast between support for harris on the one side and no support basically for trump on the other side. from 39 economists from across the board. >> so steve, you can already hear trump's campaign, trump supporters saying, oh, these are pointy-headed economists. these are academics who cares? we can point them to goldman sachs who says kamala harris' economy would be better than donald trump. let's move to your second chart about what a trump plan would actually do to the economy if implemented the way he's pitching it.

>> yeah. so why are these economists so opposed to trump's plan? because the economic effects would be pretty terrible. this is a study done by bloomberg economics and they found that harris' plan did not have much change in either the gdp or inflation which in a sense is a good thing at this point, but look at what trump's plan would do. trump's plan would cut the gdp by 8.9%. let me put that in perspective for you. this is roughly twice the amount that the gdp went down during the financial crisis. >> wow. >> we would be looking at something between a recession and a depression and interestingly, i'm sure people know because we've talked about this many times, the tariffs would cause certainly a part of this, but the biggest cause actually of this drop, are the mass deportations that trump is talking about because he would take huge pieces of our labor force out of the country, send them back or send them somewhere

else, and the result would be business wouldn't have labor. they wouldn't be able to produce things, and you would have this enormous economic subtraction. this is something we've never seen before in terms of scoring a set of policy proposals from a presidential candidate. the other reason why trump -- why harris seems to be doing better or may be doing better for her economic thoughts relative to trump is maybe people are figuring out what's actually in these two plans, and one of the most important things in these two plans are the differences in their tax proposals. harris' tax proposal would raise incomes for people at the bottom 20%, for people in the 20% to 40% percentile by fairly significant amounts. she would cut -- she would raise taxes for people at the higher incomes down here in the 99 to 100, and the 95 to 99. trump does the opposite. he does the opposite. he raises after tax incomes for people at the highest incomes up

here, and believe it or not, if you are at the bottom, trump's tax plan would actually increase your taxes slightly. so maybe people are figuring out these kinds of differences and changing your view of her economic plan versus trump's economic plan. >> well, steve, that's a good point. we were just talking earlier about a poll this morning that showed that the economic advantage had been taken away from donald trump. there was also an ap poll that came out earlier this week that showed the same thing, that it's pretty much a statistical tie even though harris is ahead on taxes. harris is ahead on housing costs. harris is ahead on some things that no one would have believed they would have been ahead before harris-walz, but it's very interesting. there's something else going on here, isn't there? because when the biden white house tried to push out bidenomics, it didn't work. inflation was coming down. gas prices were coming down, but they hadn't gotten to where they

are now. i wonder if. -- some of the shift, and i look at the dramatic polls. it's dramatic shifts like this ap poll on the economy, toward harris, i wonder if that has to do with the fact that gas prices just keep dropping. inflation just keeps dropping. the interest rates have dropped. i mean, people are actually seeing it in their day-to-day life, but some things still cost too much when they go to the grocery store. some things still cost too much when they go to home depot, but after a while, they're comparing to it what it was a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, and they see that everything's going in the right direction as far as inflation, cost of living, and most importantly, the difference between the cost of living and their living wages going up. >> sure, joe. yes. look. we have, as you have pointed out, and actually a cover of the "the economist" this week,

calls our economy the envy of the world. we have the most amazing economy, and our economic projections and our economic results continue to get better. growth is faster than people thought, and as you said, inflation has come down almost to the fed's 2% target, which is really quite extraordinary, and yes. some things absolutely still cost too much, but it is all moving in the right direction. >> all right, steve. let's move to your third chart about the national debt obviously. donald trump as president, racked up massive historic debt for the country. what would it do this time around? >> maybe voters are starting to process this as well, and one of the things that donald trump has done among his more cynical things where he's throwing out tax cuts for everybody over time and this and that, and cutting taxes on social security benefits and may sound like something you want to do, but the consequences of it would be pretty terrible because a social security trust fund which is already going to run out of money, out in 2034, would be decimated by eliminating social security taxes from their source of income, and in solvency would

come three years earlier, and there would be a huge cost to other taxpayers presumably to make up for this gap. so maybe voters are starting to figure that out. and also, is the budget deficit and the debt, and this is something maybe people are aware of. if you combine the proposals together, she would have a minimal impact on the debt with $500 billion over ten years. that's relatively small in the context of what we've got. trump's tax cuts, even with his -- these are his tariffs by the way. so we know what those would have done, but trump's tax cuts, this rather cynical giveaway to anybody and everybody would add $3 trillion to the national debt over the next ten years. so the party that's supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility turns out to be the party of fiscal irresponsibility and again, perhaps voters are starting to figure that out. coming up, our next guest just sat down with vice president kamala harris.

telemundo anchor anchor julio v talks about the key points from that interview when "morning joe" comes right back. rom that interviewhe wn "morning joe" comes right back. is there anyway to get a better price on this? have you checked singlecare? whenever my customers ask how to get a better price on their meds, i always tell them about singlecare. it's a free app. accepted at major pharmacies nationwide. before i pick up my prescription at the pharmacy, i always check the singlecare price. it's quick, easy, and totally free to use. singlecare can literally beat my insurance copay. you just search for your prescription, and show your coupon in the app to your pharmacist. i just show you the coupon and i get this price? that's right! go to singlecare.com and start saving today. the season finale is upon us. huzzah! libations? help thy yourself. thou keep this dog food in thy fridge. oh, it's not dog food, it's freshpet. real meat, real veggies. for thy beast? thy what now? wait! wait! wait!

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coming up, one of our next guests has been nominated for 24 emmys. the larger than life billy crystal is standing by and joins us here on set with his latest project, but first, joe's conversation with bill maher. they discuss the presidential race, the war in the middle east, and much more. we're back in just a moment. a . original medicare. these are convenient plans that offer all of the benefits of original medicare, plus extra coverage and benefits. with a humana medicare advantage plan, you could get doctor, hospital and prescription drug coverage in one convenient plan. most plans include routine dental, vision, even

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you're happy tonight. only 18 days and you'll stop getting texts that say, tim walz here. [ laughter ] of course, we're spared mostly

here, right? in california because we're not a swing state, so, you know, los angeles, you barely know there's an election going on. [ laughter ] i do see a lot of yard signs, of course, they all say armed response. [ applause ] i will concede. i am a bit anxious, and that's the difference between me and trump. i will concede. >> that's a portion of bill maher's monologue on his long-running show "realtime" from last friday, joe was a guest on that show with mark cuban and activist david hogg. then afterwards, joe took his turn asking bill questions in a sitdown interview. it was revealing. they talked about the war in the middle east, wokeness, and why he's not shy about criticizing the extreme left as well as the right. take a look. >> bill, thanks so much.

how long have we -- >> after all these years. >> what has it been? >> well, you were on "politically incorrect" where you were a congressman in florida. >> exactly. the first show i was on, this guy stands up and points at me and goes, you're a racist. >> who was it? >> i forget who it was, and you defended me. >> did he mean it? >> of course, he meant it. he's a comedian. i wasn't insulted by it. you stood up for me. >> well, that is a fundamental problem we have had for a long time. well, two problems. one, there are racists in the republican party as many people have -- i mean, there always have been. there used to be more in the democratic party. they were the dixie crowd, but as someone once said, you know, is every republican a racist? of course, not, but if you are a racist, that is the party you're going to gravitate towards, but also there is a big problem of calling every republican a racist and calling everything racism. that goes on in the left, you know, we were talking about on

the show. >> it's both sides-ism -- >> there's no misinformation coming -- >> there's disinformation from the left, but comparing it to what donald trump speaks -- >> i agree. >> every day, every week, comparing it to what elon musk is spewing out unfortunately on x, there's no -- >> you were, like, bill. how can you -- mr. false equivalency. no, joe. come on. i thought you were joe scarborough. there's crazy on both sides. >> there's crazy on both sides. >> not as much on the left at all, but, you know, i don't closet calling it out. >> no, you don't. what i noticed when i first came here, your audience was overwhelmingly democratic. i would say something, and there would be one guy in a nascar in the shirt that would clap for me, right? >> correct. >> that's changed through the years. i can talk to conservatives who i still talk to, and i can talk to conservatives who have a world view like mine, and they watch it because they like how you speak against the excesses

on the left. >> yeah. i mean, look. i wrote a book about this this year, and the theme of it really -- i mean, it was a lot of our old editorials that we had done, reworked, but basically the same ones, and i went through them purposely to see, have i changed? you know, people do, or have things changed? and it's mostly things. the left wasn't as crazy under bush and obama. they just weren't, and i was not going to hold my tongue when they went to places where i -- i mean, college kids marching for hamas? don't tell me there hasn't been a change. >> right. >> and the victim culture, the cancel culture. >> i will say this though. listen. i agree. there's been a change on the left, but let's just talk about hamas for a second. let's talk about college campuses. i remember back when i started carborough country back in 2003. we were talking about the

radicalism at columbia, the anti-semitism coming in the -- from the college professors. i don't know that that's changed that much. i think there's been anti-semitism at elite colleges for a really long time. don't you? >> i don't think it's rooted in anti-semitism. i think it's rooted in anti-colonialism, and their erroneous view that the israelis are colonizers. >> somebody should really tell them that, like, european colonialists killed 6 million of them not too long ago. >> exactly. i mean, that's just part of it, but certainly that's a relative thing to bring up, but, you know, colonialism, which now is mostly a thing of the past in the world, due to the work of other generations, and these kids come along and they want to get rid of what they, i guess, assume is the last vestige of it. the jews were there 700 years before islam even existed or

more. probably 1,700 years, but certainly the temple was built a long time before islam came in the 7th century or 6th century. there has always been a presence there. there was a u.n. resolution that said, divide the land. one group went with it. one group has never agreed to it, and let's be honest. a lot of that is because the koran says, jew is bad. if that wasn't, like, a big part of why they hate having them in that region, most people around the world that have territorial disputes, it doesn't go on forever. >> right. >> at a certain point, they come to some accommodation. not everything is fair, but i mean, you don't see the mexicans trying to take back phoenix. >> right. >> although they could. they could make the claim. they did have it at one point. >> right. so we could talk about israel for the entire time here, but i want to get back to you haven't

changed. so you consider yourself a liberal, right? >> i consider myself an old-school liberal. you have to -- you have to make that distinction now because, you know, the word woke which started out as a good thing, being alert to injustice and a lot of people get triggered by the word because when they hear it, they think of it the old meaning, which was good. >> right. >> you know, stay woke, but i'm sorry. language is a living, breathing entity. words change, and they take on a different meaning and woke now has to answer for -- or people have just used the word to describe a number of extreme things on the left. i mean, i think -- i was talking about it in the editorial tonight. i mean, kamala's big, i think, challenge here to win over the undecided voters is to convince them that she's not part of what they suspect she might be sort of a stealth version of the worst excesses of the left. i said there's a coalition of

trump voters. >> right. >> people who really like him. they certainly are those, and then there's people who don't necessarily like him that much, but they still think he's less crazy than stuff is that strikes them as aggressively anti-common sense. >> right. >> that takes place on the left and that's why they keep running that ad about sex changes and prison. >> every football game. >> every football game. >> i see it. >> could you get more third-round words into one sentence? >> sex change operation. >> taxpayer. >> taxpayer-funded. >> illegal. prison. >> it rings every single time. >> they just want her to say, look. i get this about my -- the blue team, and it's on my to-do list. >> it's very easy to say. yeah, i said that in 2019. i was in a competitive -- now she did say -- i think she said, this was the law under trump too. he didn't change it, but it's

very easy to say, i don't believe that anymore. on this issue, i wanted to ask you, you're an old line liberal. >> i don't think so. >> i'm an old line conservative. i still believe in the same, balance budgets, a strong southern border, tough -- tough, you know, reaction to military aggression from russia, et cetera, et cetera. and yet you and i find ourselves, i think, more in the same place. >> yeah. >> because of the extremes on both sides. >> right. >> talk about how crazy things have gotten, and how we've gotten here. >> well, that's it. i feel like i speak for a different group of people. you asked why the audience is different. that's why. because i want a group of people who are not ideologically captured by either side. i am tired from the extremes and the extremists who dominate the debate. they have the megaphone, and we hear them more, but i don't think they represent what most people in the country talk about. i think almost any issue you

could actually come up with a reasonable middle ground, and the overtime segment tonight, the subject of race and, you know, we were talking about young men who are now, like, in college, the ones who are going to need affirmative action. you have to on the one hand, understand you benefitted from racism if you are white. there's no doubt about it, and that has to be addressed. it can't be ignored. >> right. >> but also, i didn't personally do it. there's a middle ground there. it's very difficult. >> two things can be true treu -- at one time. >> i'm not personally responsible, but did i benefit? yes, i'm sure i did. people our age definitely did. >> right. >> and so if we can all agree on things like that, we could then come up with sensible policy, but that's not where the interest is. >> isn't that the -- i think that's the biggest problem when you look at young men who are

turning maybe more extreme in some cases, this sense of collective guilt. you and i can look back. everybody should be able to welcome back and see how we did benefit from some really unfortunate things that have happened throughout history, but you don't apply that collective guilt to a 7-year-old kid showing up in school. >> and also, i keep saying on this show, let's live in the year we're living in. you know? the year 2024 is just very different, very, like, night and day different from 50 years ago. even probably 20 years ago, and how well you do and things that happen to you that are good or bad, this is a whole constellation of reasons. race is certainly one of them, and probably in america, maybe still the biggest one, but it's not the only one, and sometimes it works in your favor in this modern world that we live in. not always, and there's still absolutely racism, and there always will be racists just like there will always be criminals and other idiots, but let's live

in the year we're living in. let's go by the way the world is now, and some people don't want do that. it's funny in that book i was talking about, there's a couple of chapters on how much alike really, the two sides are. for example, they both don't want to live in the present. donald trump wants to take us back to the 1950s or whatever. i mean, everything is about make america great again and it's about this past idyllic world, but sometimes on the left, they don't know -- want to acknowledge progress because it interferes with virtue signaling to say, we've come a long way, which we have. >> it's okay to say that. >> somehow you're a better person if you say, there's work to be done. of course, there's work to be done. there's always work to be done. here's humans and we're on earth. there's always work to be done, but let's be realistic about where we are. >> thanks so much for doing this. >> great to see you. >> great to see you. that was joe's interview

with bill maher, and still ahead on "morning joe," new polling shows a dead heat in wisconsin between donald trump and vice president harris. we'll speak with the chairman of the state's democratic party when "morning joe" comes right back. s democratic party when "morning joe" comes right back . ♪ ♪ control of my uc means everything to me. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ now, i'm back in the picture. skyrizi helps deliver relief, repair, and remission in uc. feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks, including fewer bowel movements and less bleeding. skyrizi is proven to help visibly repair colon lining damage, and help people achieve remission at 12 weeks and 1 year. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms, or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization may occur when treated for uc. take control of your uc. ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

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representation matters. it matters in every industry, and it matters in our government. >> give your situation a voice. >> we deserve and we desire more. >> you want something changed? you need to vote. >> the reason we do it is because we know what's at stake. >> it is our responsibility to continue

. a look at the new documentary entitled "dear america, a letter from black women," which highlights the untold stories of black women and explores their pivotal role in shaping the nation's political history. the film's executive producer chanel barnes macleod helped create the documentary in hopes of mobilizing black women and allies across the nation to not just vote, but to take a stand. chanel is ceo of project ready, a nonprofit focused on engaging black and brown voters. she is one of 25 civic leaders honored on this year's inaugural democracy heros list, a list created by the nonprofit organization i am a voter in collaboration with "morning joe" and the rockefeller foundation

and also head count. and chanel joins us now. also with us, the cofounder of i am a voter and the driving force behind the democracy heros awards. and jen psaki joins the table. chanel, i'll start with you. congratulations on making the list. >> thank you so much. >> what's the inspiration for the documentary and the message you hoped to impart? >> i want to take a step back. i'm so excited to be here in new york, because yesterday marks the anniversary where 25,000 women suffrages actually marched on 5th avenue in order to secure the right to vote. what we also know is black women were there but they didn't secure the right to vote until much, much later. that's really what "dear america, a love letter from black women" is all about.

it's about what we want to see from democracy now. >> i don't know if you've noticed, there's a little bit of anxiety in the world right now. people are scared. it's hard to sit at a table with chanel and not be inspired. what have you learned from her and watching the documentary about what people can do to use their voice in this moment less than two weeks from an election. >> again, i'm so inspired by all the work she was doing. i just watched the documentary and i was blown away from it. black women are unwavering warriors and they have held up democracy election after election. we need to move to a place where they are not just pivotal in voter turnout, but pivotal in

shaping policy and progress. i think, for me, looking at all of this right now, we hear so much about voter apathy and low voter turnout. i think much of that is because we continue to see this fear-based messaging, like nothing is getting done, everything is a disaster. i don't think that it is. i think progress is happening every single day in every single city all across our country. amazing people like chanel are doing the work. posting on instagram, making a tiktok video is not change. you have to do the hard work. you have to talk to people you don't agree with. i think that is what's going to be required. we need people to move beyond trolling people on their comments. >> i love the concept of your documentary, because black women often have shaped history.

i think this election is about how all women can shape history and save our own lives. tell us more about the documentary in terms of what we can learn from the political warriors of the past. >> we traveled the nation in order to interview black women and their allies. we went to georgia. we went to pennsylvania. we went to new york. during this time, what we saw bubble up, we thought we were going in to just talk about the history of black women and democracy. what started to come up was black maternal health, the lack of education equity. >> infant mortality. >> the wealth gap. so when we talk about november 5th, it's an important day, but we also have so many more days and years after where a policy agenda has to be shaped. the film is not only a backdrop

to get people motivated to vote, but it is also going to launch the black women's opportunity agenda where we are galvanizing voters, galvanizing those women in order to talk through what we want to see from democracy now. >> let me ask for people out there who aren't sure what they can do to help, what is one thing they can do to have an impact and reach black women? >> the first thing is you need to vote. show up for black women the way black women have been showing up for democracy, because black women vote. the second thing is you need to be an active participant in our policy agenda that l close the wealth gap, that will increase educational equity. that will give humanity a fighting chance. >> thank you so much. i am a voter, how do people get

involved? >> text voter to 26797. >> perfect. >> also visit the dear america project dotcom. >> i love it. read more at knowyourvalue.com. thank you both so much. what an incredible time we're in right now. jen, stick around for the fourth hour. still ahead, vice president kamala harris is picking up more endorsements from conservatives, this time from two key voices in the midwest battleground states. we'll tell you who they are. also ahead, billy crystal will be in studio with us to talk about his new role in a psychological thriller. "morning joe" is coming right back. l thriller "morning joe" is coming right back if you have wet amd, you never want to lose sight of the things you love. some things should stand the test of time. long-lasting eylea hd could significantly improve your vision.

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whether or not you should root for hitler. we're eliminating that confusion with our new line-up of world war ii programming. join us mondays at 7:00 for "defeating the furor," who, to be clear, was the bad guy. followed by "hitler's generals, the also bad guys behind the main very, very bad guys." then one hour later with a black screen that just says "hitler was bad." of course, you can still enjoy all our other programming like "ancient aliens". >> i believe the pyramids were built by aliens.

even i know hitler was bad. >> we teamed up with our sister network to present "shark week, the hitlers of the sea." does that make hitler sound cool? forget about it. the h is for history, not hitler, who was bad. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 am on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. vice president harris sharpened her message to a town hall last night while former president donald trump courted voters in georgia. hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: with 12 days until election day, former president donald trump on attack. >> our country is being destroyed and crippled by kamala harris, a person that got no votes, no votes. therefore, she's a threat to democracy.

>> reporter: that's as former trump officials and the harris campaign highlighted why they see him as an existential threat after john kelly told the "new york times" mr. trump falls into the general definition of fascist. vice president kamala harris responding at a cnn town hall. >> he's just putting out a 911 call to the american people. >> reporter: mr. kelly blasting trump as tough and dumb. >> do you think donald trump is a fascist? >> yes, i do. >> reporter: later, reiterating that when asked about voters who might consider a third party because of the biden administration's handling of the war in gaza. >> for many people who care about this issue, they also care about bringing down the price of groceries, they also care about our democracy and not having a president of the united states who admires dictators and is a fascist. >> reporter: mr. trump, for his part, ramping up the rhetoric. >> you have to stand up and you

have to tell kamala harris that kamala, you've done a horrible job. you're the worst ever. >> reporter: at the town hall, the vice president also pressed on immigration, asked about her past comments calling a border wall stupid. >> is a border cal stupid? >> let's talk about donald trump and that border wall. [ laughter ] remember, donald trump said mexico would pay for it? come on, they didn't. >> it does call for $650 million that was earmarked under trump to still go to build the wall. >> i'm not afraid of good ideas where they occur. >> you don't think it's stupid anymore? >> i think what he did and how he did it did not make much sense. >> hallie jackson with that report. along with joe, willie and me, we have jen psaki, jonathan

lemire. kamala harris doing town halls and trying to talk about speaking to a divided america, being open to ideas from all sides, living in a free country. >> i mean, you know, i loved her answer last night on cnn, and i think any republican, democrat or independent who's concerned about this country being too divided and too idealogical also had to love that answer. anderson cooper asked about changing her mind on some positions. her response was, i'm open to all good ideas, and i've got an open mind. i want to do what works. now, i know this will be shocking to people voting for donald trump that may have grown up only knowing trump republican party, but that answer is a conservative answer out of the

conservative mind by russell kirk. i'm going to just repeat it again, because obviously it's going to take a few years to deprogram some trumpers who were once conservatives. the conservative mind russell kirk, the landmark book that laid the foundation for modern american conservatism says we look at the world as it is, not through some crazed idealogical lens. and we're open to different ideas. and kirk said in the seventh edition at the introduction, at the end of it, he said, whether we attach ourselves to the party of permanence or the party of progress depends on the facts before us. i can tell you what a liberal economist once said too. again, this is all very important, because people are acting shocked like politicians

have never changed their minds. donald trump, of course, changing his mind every 15 seconds on abortion. john leonard cane said when the facts change, i change my mind. i thought harris did exceptionally well in that answer. i also thought, jen psaki, she tied together two strands that are so important, and the campaign is doing that as well. for so long, there have been libertarians and small government conservatives, true small government conservatives that have been very worried about the federal government and state governments and governors and old men stepping in, telling women what they could do with their bodies, what they could do with their health care choices. i've seen focus grouped where a libertarian would say, wait a second now, if they're doing that to a woman's body, what rights may they take away from me? well, donald trump has provided

the october surprise by saying i will use the military, i will use the national guard to arrest nancy pelosi, to arrest adam schiff, to arrest my political opponents. when he tries to -- when he gets pushback from fox news hosts, he says, no, no, no, no, i mean exactly what i say. so here we have in the final weeks donald trump taking away women's rights and promising to take away the rights of free speech, promising to shut down cbs, threatening comcast, threatening other news outlets that don't toe the line day in and day out. we're not just not talking about a 50-year right ripped away from women, we're talking about free speech. we're talking about the freedom of assembly. we're talking about basic first amendment rights that donald trump is promising in these final two weeks of the campaign to take away from americans, not

in the debate. he's doing it on fox news repeatedly. >> yep. no question about it. i mean, first of all, excessive government intervention is not exactly a conservative value or a conservative platform. that's exactly what you're talking about, joe, is trump's desire, interest in using all tools at his disposal, many that shouldn't be used in this way, to go after people's rights, to go after political opponents, to go after people who disagree with him. anybody sitting at home thinking this doesn't apply to me, right, i'm not adam schiff, i'm not nancy pelosi, this doesn't mean anything to me, i'm not going to have an abortion. it does apply to you. the group of people he's talking about are basically anyone who has a friend, a sister, a daughter who may need abortion care. it is anybody who has a member of their family who's lgbtq plus, anybody who disagreed with

trump, people who have worked with him in the past. >> this can include republicans. he wakes up on the wrong side of the bed and doesn't like what fox news has done one day, he might say something about fox news. in fact, he has, he does it. >> that's exactly right. people who have disagreed with him who have worked with him in the past. my point is if you're thinking this has nothing to do with me, you're wrong. this fits into a broad swath of category, everyone. >> he's endorsed the idea of military tribunals for the likes of liz cheney and other republicans. so this has nothing to do with being a republican or a democrat, being a conservative or a liberal. in fact, liz cheney is far more conservative than donald trump will ever be. and yesterday he's talking about military tribunals for liz cheney. >> anybody who crosses him in any way, he went on "fox and

friends" last week and sat on the couch and said i see too many negative ads about me on this network. i'm going upstairs to talk to rupert murdoch to have them pulled off the air. that's who he is. donnie, as we talk about the contrast in the next 12 days, kamala harris ahead of next tuesday, one week ahead of election day, is going to give a closing speech on the ellipse, where donald trump gave his speech on january 6th, giving a visual contrast to what we saw on january 6th to the chaos and the violence that donald trump brings with him. what do you make of her closing moves down the stretch here? >> the closing moves -- you know, it's interesting. i talk to a lot of trump voters. and people who i care about and people who i love. and i say, why are you voting for trump? their answer is pretty simple.

they say, i have an issue or issues, and i believe he's going to solve it. i say, well, you may or may not be right, but do you understand with that the price that comes with it is our freedom, is the military going against your own people, an unfree media, hitler's generals being -- why can't my generals be more like hitler. that comes with it. do you believe it? no, i don't believe it. why don't you believe it? he's saying a lot of crazy things. i want to say to trump voters, i respect where you're coming from, but don't kid yourself, the other stuff comes with it. it's not just talk. it's not just chatter. own that. what you believe your issue is, i stand with democracy and i'm not going to give that up for

any issue or other issues that may matter. >> i'm not asking you to believe what the "new york times" editorial page says. i'm not asking you to believe what msnbc says in prime time. i'm not asking you to believe what democratic senators say or democratic presidential candidates. all donnie is asking you to believe and all i'm asking you to believe is what donald trump is promising to do, and not just once and a throw-away line whether it's in erie, pennsylvania or las vegas, no. he's saying every day he's going to use the military and the national guard to go against his political enemies, that he's going to shut down cbs and other networks because he doesn't like how they edit packages, donald

trump's words, not kamala harris' words, not joe biden's words. this is what donald trump is promising you, not in the republican primary. this is what he's promising you in the home stretch of his campaign when it actually works against his own political interests. he's talking about it in the home stretch saying he will arrest political opponents. >> to your point, joe -- >> so if it's guest his own interests, you can believe him. >> yes. i think to your point, the answer to the people who say, oh, he's not serious, you have to ask yourself who would say that? what kind of person? that would be like any of us here at this table saying the foulest words imaginable and then our producers saying to all the people coming after us asking why in the world would mika use a word like that, well,

she didn't mean it. no. someone who says something like what donald trump said, you have to wonder about a person who says something like that, maybe. i think it's worth taking it very seriously, talking about hitler's generals, wanting to be like hitler. let's bring in an advisor for the harris campaign, adrienne elrod. >> let's talk about that closing argument speech next week in terms of the thought process behind having it there at the ellipse in terms of the symbolism and visuals. but also, what are we going to hear from the vice president that day? >> yeah. i've been listening to the conversation you all have been asking about the moment that we're in and the fact that this speech that she's giving, her closing argument speech, is going to take place at the very place where donald trump on january 6th had the worst moment of his presidency. she's really going to draw that

contrast where she's coming in and saying i am here to chart a new way forward, i am hear to turn the page on donald trump, make your lives better and put the american people first, lower your costs, get us moving in the right direction and really turning the page on donald trump's chaos and division that he's not only -- we experienced when he was president but we still are going through today. you laid out very clearly this morning donald trump 2.0 would be worse than donald trump 1.0. don't take the words of vice president harris or your words or may words. take the words of general john kelly who served as his chief of staff who has made it very clear what donald trump's intentions were as president and what his intentions were if he got back in that white house. it's going to crystallize the difference in this election between the type of leader the

vice president would be for all americans, lowering costs for families, charting a new way forward, expanding rights, making sure women's reproductive rights are protected, but also at the same time really reversing the course and making it clear that we do not want this chaotic and divisive president back in the white house. >> on reproductive rights, we have -- we're going to show it a little later, a video of a woman talking about her own personal reproductive emergency that turned into a complete nightmare because of donald trump. i know the campaign is focused on that. it's also hard not to focus on fascism as vice president kamala harris was pretty blunt last night at her town hall saying she agreed donald trump is a fascist. and yet watched a lot of his networks, fox news. they haven't talked about this story. they haven't talked about his

comments about wanting generals like hitler's generals. when they do bring it up, we had one host who kind of distorted the truth in kind of a sick way where he thought donald trump didn't mean it, that he was frustrated in the moment. he kind of wants hitler's generals but he didn't mean it because he probably doesn't know about hitler and his generals. so basically the argument was donald trump is too stupid to know what he was saying. that was the pushback from fox news, if i may. i've got to ask the campaign strategy here. are you guys giving up on fox news? are you not putting surrogates on fox news to give viewers there an opportunity to hear the whole story, the whole truth about donald trump? are you not fighting for that anymore? or have you decided that's baked in with those viewers and it's better to put energy elsewhere? what's the strategymika, first

our surrogates should be everywhere. we have hundreds of surrogates in the battleground states every single week. we are deploying them on radio, on regional tv, on podcasts. they're hitting campaign events, canvas kickoffs, they're going to churches. they're doing everything to reach every single voter. as you know, we have the vice president and governor walz, but we also need other surrogates to go out there and deliver our message. as pertains to fox news, look, we're obviously getting under trump's skin. in his own interview with "fox and friends" he spent time attacking fox for putting ads on television, which is what they do. you buy ad space and both republican and democratic campaigns can put ads on. he doesn't have a vision for the american people so we has to spend time putting down fox news

and those who don't agree with him. there was a reason kamala harris went on fox news. she wanted to make sure fox news viewers understood what was at stake. she delivered messages about trump's divisive rhetoric, about some of the things he has said about how he would be a dictator on day one. she talked about those things when she was on with bret baier. it was important to us that she go on fox news to make sure fox viewers understand what's at stake. we're certainly not leaving fox news on the field. we know a lot of fox news viewers are open to voting for vice president harris. many of them are. that's not a place we will ignore over the next 12 days in this campaign. >> as you know for everything we're talking about here -- we're talking about fascism, importantly. we're talking about abortion, about immigration, all critical issues. but at the end of the day, many

voters still say despite all the economic data that's out there it's too expensive to live in america. that is true. at the end of the day many voters despite everything they know in their gut about donald trump may say i need my economic situation to change. what does vice president harris say to that voter who needs some persuasion? >> first of all, instead of having a concept of a plan, as donald trump said in the debate with the vice president, vice president harris has actually laid out her plans. number one, if you want to open a small business, she wants to make sure that you have a $50,000 tax deduction in order to do that. if you are a middle class family trying to get by in this country, she wants to make sure she is lowering costs and taxes for you. contrast that with donald trump, who, if project 2025 is enacted,

the average american family would see their taxes go up by $4,000 a year. she's laying out that contrast and that vision. there have been a number of objective economists out there saying if donald trump becomes president and his tax plan is enacted, we might see our country going into a recession. i just saw steve ratner going through his charts where he's talking about how much better our economy would be under vice president harris than donald trump 2.0. she's continuing to go out there and make that contrast and making sure every single american knows if she is president of the united states, she will make sure their taxes are lowered, that their costs are lowered. that is a very important part of this campaign. it's something we talk about. look, there are polls that show she is closing the gap on the economy but it's still something she will continue and we will continue to talk about over the next 12 days. >> donald trump's central theme for the economy is tariffs,

which are inflationary passed onto consumers. adrienne elrod, thanks. always good to have you with us. >> thanks, willie. this week vice president harris sat down for an interview with telemundo. it aired last night during a prime time special. vice president harris made her pitch to latino voters, contrasting herself with donald trump. >> my experience is i talk with latino voters every day all the time. and there is an incredible amount of support there, because latino voters understand they want a president of the united states who treats all people with dignity, with respect and invests in their dreams for themselves and fair family. donald trump, what did he get from him as president? family separation policies, dividing and speaking ill of people of certain backgrounds.

>> and julio vicaro joins us now. what stood out during your conversation with vice president harris? what do you think were the issues most salient to your viewers? >> good morning. so this is probably the last pitch that vice president kamala harris will be able to make before election day. so it was a very important conversation. we really tried to talk about the issues that latinos care about. we've been on the road talking to latinos reporting. the polls also show the economy is number one, the cost of living, of course. immigration is also an important topic to latinos. we talked about she took this opportunity, this interview to talk about her opportunity agenda for latino men. she talked about these loans she will offer latinos to start a small business, to buy a new home. less than half of latinos own their own houses. all these are important issues for latinos.

but then the reality is that polls are showing that more and more latinos are willing to question their loyalty to the democratic party. president trump is making inroads. so we talked about that. she just was very careful to insist that she will be working for middle class families, offering these opportunities. it's a tough time for her with latinos. i mean, this is an important electorate, important group, 36 million eligible latinos in swing states, 1 in 4 voters in arizona and nevada are latinos. it's an important time for her to make her case for these voters to these voters. >> we know that the republicans and the trump campaign have tried to paint harris as being a socialist and what that means to some of them for their home countries. she rebutted that and said she was a pragmatic capitalist. tell us whether you think that

argument is effective and also this debate in the latino community about what she believes. >> it is very important, i think. a lot of latinos come from countries like cuba, venezuela, nicaragua. they have suffered that experience of a socialist government. she was careful to insist it's not only socialists, social dictatorships. president trump has been defining her as a socialist. i asked her, how do you define herself? she said, i'm a capitalist, a pragmatic capitalist. >> telemundo anchor julio vicaro, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> good to have you. coming up, nearly 100,000 cast their ballots on the first day of early voting in the

battleground state of wisconsin, with some voters waiting three hours in line. we'll be joined by the chairman of the state's democratic party. plus, the legendary billy crystal will join us live in studio to discuss his latest project. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. hi. i'm damian clark. i'm here to help you understand how to get the most from medicare. if you're eligible for medicare, it's a good idea to have original medicare. it gives you coverage for doctor office visits and hospital stays. but if you want even more benefits, you can choose a medicare advantage plan like the ones offered at humana.

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32 past the hour. vice president kamala harris just picked up two endorsements from key conservatives out of the midwest. the first was from former michigan republican congressman fred upton, who served three decades in the house and retired in 2022 after voting to impeach donald trump. he told the "new york times" he already cast his ballot for

harris, the first time in his life he voted for a democrat for president. next, there's the mayor of waukesha, wisconsin, shawn reilly, an independent, who was a republican for most of his life, but disavowed the republican party after the january 6th capitol riot. he also stated he has never endorsed a democrat before, adding he was very afraid of the direction our country will head in if donald trump becomes president and things will be heading down a road of authoritarianism and fascism. joining us now, the chair of the democratic party of wisconsin ben wickler. how are things looking at this point? >> there's so much energy in wisconsin right now. we had 97,000 early votes in early voting on tuesday. that is triple the midterms. it's more than 2020.

the second day of early voting, the number of votes cast was higher than the first day. the energy is palpable. this is a jump ball state. >> let me ask you about that endorsement from the mayor of waukesha, shawn riley who left the republican party on january 6th, 2021, after what he saw at the capitol. it was a bridge too far. voted third party in 2016, president biden in 2020, but said he kept an open mind for 2024, saying he is going to vote for kamala harris. what does that tell you? >> not just that he's going to vote for kamala harris, but he's publicly endorsing it. it's really people sounding the alarm. this is not just something people are thinking about in the quiet of their own hearts. a lot of folks who would have wanted to have not weighed into this whole fight are saying this is go time, that you have to

vote and it's time to vote for harris if you want to defend american democracy, american freedom and also an economy that works for the american people. around the state, we've seen the former republican senate majority leader endorse kamala harris, we've seen republican former sheriffs endorse kamala harris. you see many people who would not normally be seen on a platform endorsing a democratic nominee, endorsing harris and not trump. and some voters who probably will not share who they're voting for are going to go in the voting booth and fill in the oval for kamala harris, maybe not tell anyone about it because they know the stakes are this high. >> it's to appeal to republicans and independents and swing voters in wisconsin. let's talk about the base and in particular milwaukee. what is the party right now? how are you feeling about efforts right now in the state's largest city?

what benchmarks do you feel like you need to hit, and are you hitting them? >> we're doing a ton of work on the ground and not just now in these final two weeks. we have a year round presence in milwaukee. there are so many grassroots organizations and independent groups doing hard work to make sure people have the right documents and go and cast their ballots. we've had a flood of different surrogates coming through of people making the case to voters. barbershop events, we've had an extraordinary array of advertising on black and latino radio and websites. all of that can help drive upturnout. the rest of the state can't count on milwaukee to bail things out. milwaukeeians are facing intentional voter suppression by republicans. what we've seen so far suggests that turnout will rise. this is the land of the nail biter. the polls are absolutely tied.

four of the last six elections have come down to less than one percentage point. >> chair of the democratic party of wisconsin ben wickler, thank you. donny deutsch, i'm going to take time to show a video again and a video i'd love for you to comment on. i know you have daughters. here is a woman who had a reproductive emergency. >> i found out i was pregnant. i went and had my anatomy ultrasound done. the doctor diagnosed the baby with potter's syndrome. with potter's syndrome, babies only live a few minutes to a few hours. i could not get pre-term induced due to the law and had to carry him to full term.

i remember my o.b. handing me a baby boy that was blue and cold, gasping for air for 94 minutes. and i just held him. we just watched our son suffocate. the trauma i went through, i wish it upon no one. >> and yet everyone is possibly affected by this, her son, her husband, family members, neighbors. this is what's happening right now in america. your comments? >> i have daughters. i don't understand how any woman can vote any other way. >> or man. >> or man. state by state it might change but there are going to be hundreds of thousands of women whose lives and family's lives are going to be destroyed. this is a human issue. this is a right and wrong. this is a who are we as a

country. >> donny deutsch, thank you so much. coming up next, tony and emmy award winning legend billy crystal like you've never seen him before. >> here i am at the magical unicorn. >> would you just stop? ♪♪ >> dad? stop what? who are you talking to? >> whoa. billy crystal joins us live in studio next to discuss his latest project "before." we'll be right back. latest pjeroct "before." we'll be right back. strikes... do you question the tradeoffs of treating? with ubrelvy, there's another option. ubrelvy works fast, most have migraine pain relief within 2 hours. you can treat it anytime, anywhere, without worrying where you are, or if it's too late. don't take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors.

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♪♪ >> he was my first foster. the last parents found him unnerving. >> what do you know about this farmhouse that he keeps drawing? >> i never realized that. >> suffering from hallucinations, repeated expulsions from school. i feel like there's a reason he found me. i have a game for you. put your block right in the middle. now, you say something that makes you mad. >> people who do bad things. >> what kind of bad things? [ indiscernible ] >> that is a new look at the new apple tv plus "before." the psychological thriller stars billy crystal, who plays eli, a child psychiatrist grieving the death of his wife when a mysterious child named noah shows up at his doorstep,

forcing billy to confront his own personal demons and greatest fears. billy, good to see you. >> good to see you, willie. >> folks, don't worry, if it's scary, the laugh track we put on helps a lot. [ laughter ] >> oh great, this will be fun. when does meg ryan walk into the frame? she's not showing up in this one. i was telling these guys, first of all, how excellent the series is. it has -- it feels a little bit like "the shining." it feels a little bit like an m. night shyamalan in all the best ways. how are you describing it? >> it's a psycho drama thriller. when we spoke about it, i think you had seen five or something. >> yes. >> it keeps you right on the edge of your chair, and it keeps going that way. it doesn't resolve itself until actually the very last moment of the very last show. i have to say i'm more excited about this than almost

everything i've ever done. >> wow. >> given your career, that's an amazing statement. >> it's the ultimate away game, you know? to live in this kind of world of -- it's not horror. it's just psychologically draining. i play a man who's a pediatric psychiatrist who's dealing with this very troubled kid who arrives out of the blue and will do anything to help him through his trauma, break every law you're supposed to adhere to as a physician in the pursuit of, you know, alleviating this kid's pain. >> just in that one clip that we showed, the one on one with you talking on the kid and the kid is sort of accusatory to you. >> yeah. >> how do you do that? >> it's acting. [ laughter ] >> oh. >> i know, just came to me. >> why? >> because, you know, amazing young actor from london.

the challenge of that and working with him was extraordinary to help this kid through his trauma. i'm the guy who cured robert de niro of his trauma in "analyze this." this kid is nothing to me. you know, it's just being a parent and being a grandfather of four, you know, i've been asked did you do a lot of research? yeah, i'm a grandparent and i'm a parent. you deal with the kids, you deal with your little ones and you try to be as calming and intuitive and as helpful as you can. >> billy crystal, you know, a smile comes to their face. >> yeah. >> because you make people laugh. >> but this is a different kind of enjoyment. this is a great mystery. this is a great -- i loved being in this world. as actors, we play different parts. i've always played different things. i've played a guy having a

midlife confusion in "city slickers." i was a guy with romantic confusion in "when harry met sally." in my career, in my life to get a role like this is just the greatest feeling. >> now that you've had a role like this, is this something you would want to revisit? it is a darker tone, one that might take your fans by surprise. >> but it's a great surprise. for some of them, it may not even be a surprise. >> talk about range. >> yeah. that's what we're supposed to do, you know? >> all right. so i now want to know how you're feeling about everything going on in the america right now. >> well, i think the yankees are winning the series. >> okay. okay. >> i really do. i feel great about that. and the rest is up for grabs. >> yeah. >> it's a scary time. >> yeah. >> yeah. i mean, we just want what's best

for the country. and, you know, i was listening to the segment before as a father of two daughters and two granddaughters. >> oh my. >> you fear for the future. i felt that when the results were in 2016, sitting with them watching and worried for where is this heading. but, you know, i'm very optimistic. i think the lesson for all of this for all of us is americans have always pulled together in the hardest of times, and we need to do that now. >> that's well said. i have nothing to add. that's the right sentiment right now, best for the country. >> the thought of sitting with our daughters, which i'm trying to figure out. i don't know what else on election day i can do but hold their hands, because i do feel like there's a lot that we're talking about that maybe perhaps

busy, working people in america cannot understand the concept of a lot of the stuff we're covering in these final days. >> yeah. >> but what we do know is our daughters' lives have already been dramatically changed. 50 years of freedoms have been taken away, freedoms i grew up with, they don't have. you get the sense this is as much for them as it is for anybody in america who likes to live in a free society. >> you know, absolutely. you know, with four grandchildren from early 20s to 12, this is for them. 12, this is for them. even more so than it is for us. what is our future? as a planet, too. >> just to circle back on a happier note, yankees in six. >> yeah. >> we need this. >> and thanks for depressing me. >> i'm sorry. >> we're going to get -- we need you. just as a yankee, we need you at one of the games. >> i worked it out. i was on the "tonight show" last

night. at that point, i'm leaving to do more promotion in europe. but now they've made that i can leave tuesday. i will be there monday night. >> it's important. >> it is very important. >> is your presence good luck? >> you always think that. >> mine was until the end. i didn't show up. there you go. >> this is billy crystal 2008, at-bat in spring training. against a major league pitcher. a guy that took nothing off his pitches. >> the bat speed was good. >> he fouled one off, arguably, a fair ball. i looked at the tape. >> thank you. >> if we had the review back then. >> 90-mile-per-hour fast ball. it sounded like it was a strike. and i didn't see it. that was a thrill of a lifetime. i mean, often asked, was the oscars your favorite thing? no. for one at-bat, i was a d.h. for the new york yankees. and that was the biggest -- in 2008, as a 59-year-old. i'm a great trivia question.

who is the oldest yankee to have an at-bat. >> that's right. that's what we dream about. billy, congratulation on the series. it is excellent. the first two episodes of "before" premieres globally on apple tv plus tomorrow. every friday through the nigh finale of december 20th. billy is the executive producinger. >> thank you for framing my role on "morning joe." my co-hosts already know i'm the debbie downer. >> that's me. all right. >> thanks, billy. we'll be right back with more "morning joe."

i try to be a humble guy. i think the presidency, of course, is a big job. i feel extremely confident. hell, donald trump is healthier than i am. i feel extremely confident that donald trump is going to serve and serve well for four years for the american people. and i'm going to help him. and we're going to make america

great again. and we're going to do it together. >> he's healthier than he is? he must be in bad -- wow. j.d. vance claiming 78-year-old donald trump is healthier than he is. of course, trump has a lot of interesting moments where his health is in question. mental fitness, at least. obsessing about genitalia and things like that. out loud. >> it sounds like we need to know more about j.d. vance's health, if he's worse off at 40 years old than what we see of donald trump everybody, at 78. i'm going to go with billy crystal's sentiment, i hope the country does what's best for the country. >> that's something we can all get behind. i was surprised when he went offset, and whispered go, dodgers. a known yankee fan. that's the right sentiment we can all get behind in a divided, dark time. >> for sure. that does it for us this morning. we pick up the coverage after a short break. see you tomorrow. tomorrow

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reports," 12 days to go. vice president harris escalating her warnings, calling donald trump dangerous, unfit, and a fascist. >> let me ask you tonight, do you think donald trump is a fascist? >> yes, i do. trump,